back to article How to leave the submarine cable cutters all at sea – go Swedish

"As obsolete as warships in the Baltic" was a great pop lyric in Prefab Sprout's 1985 gem, Faron Young. Great, but ironically obsolete itself. Sweden has just deployed multiple warships in that selfsame sea to guard against the very modern menace of underwater cable cutting. With so much of the world's international energy and …

  1. dharmOS
    Mushroom

    U-235, shorely?

    Hi Rupert,

    Liked the article and arguments proposed. The Swedes have demonstrated an independent spirit of defence and innovation e.g. the Saab JAS-39 Gripen fighter, instead of jumping on the Eurofighter platform.

    However, a minor correction. I think you mean weapons-grade Uranium-235. U-238 is the inert stuff used as filler for anti-tanks rounds to cut through tank armour, or converted to Plutonium-238 in a breeder reactor.

    1. sitta_europea Silver badge

      Re: U-235, shorely?

      Well, if you're going to be picky, it isn't plutonium 238 which is made by 'breeding' from uranium (bombarding uranium 238 with neutrons in a breeder reactor) but plutonium 239.

      Pu238 is what you get by bombarding U238 with deuterons, not neutrons, and it's no use at all for weapons.

      Deuterons are in relatively short supply in the two breeder reactors that I know of because they're cooled by liquid soldium. Both are in Russia.

      Pu238 decays by alpha emission and it's used in thermoelectric generators. In fact its decay heat is so big that it will melt itself if you aren't careful.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium#Isotopes_and_nucleosynthesis

    2. Detective Emil
      Mushroom

      Re: U-235, shorely?

      Depleted U238 is used in kinetic weaponry to pack the heaviest (literally) possible punch. But high explosives seem like a much better idea for a (non-nuclear) torpedo. Nuclear torpedos might, I discover on reading that Wikipedia page, use U238 as a tamper.

      1. NoneSuch Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: U-235, shorely?

        If any suspect civilian vessel is detected dragging an anchor across the sea floor in the area of cables, then a strongly worded letter of complaint to Mister Putin tucked inside the nose cone of a Harpoon missile would register NATO's displeasure quite effectively.

        They wouldn't even need to sign for proof of delivery. Think of the money we'd save in post and packing fees.

    3. Rob

      Re: U-235, shorely?

      Ah the Gripon, if I remember correctly that is the only jet in the world that has come close to being in strike range of an SR-71 when operational.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: U-235, shorely?

        That was the SAAB Viggen. The Gripen is the latest equipment. Viggens have been retired since 2007.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Practice what you preach?

    The idea is to raise undersea infrastructure to the status of a shared international asset of great value protected accordingly.

    Guess that doesn't apply to the Nord Stream pipelines then?

    Three separate investigations were started by Germany, Sweden and Denmark, the latter two were closed without publicly assigned responsibility for the damage in February 2024. In June 2024 German authorities issued an arrest warrant for a Ukrainian national suspected of the sabotage.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream#2022_sabotage

    Typical NATO hypocrisy.

    1. Ian K
      Stop

      Re: Practice what you preach?

      "But what about...[insert any other thing at all]"

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Practice what you preach?

        Hey don't forget the obligatory wiki link,

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Practice what you preach?

        Is Nord Stream not an example of undersea infrastructure? Would seem fairly pertinent to the topic at hand.

        1. Mark Hahn

          Re: Practice what you preach?

          And it was absolutely equivalent?

          Hypocrisy is not a moral argument, but an aesthetic one.

    2. Blazde Silver badge

      Re: Practice what you preach?

      A prime example of the point being made. With international clarity around the consequences for sabotage Nord Stream would not have been attacked. Regardless of who did it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Practice what you preach?

        If you believe that the Nord Stream sabotage op wasn't conducted with the full knowledge and behest of NATO and the aforementioned "investigators", I've got a bridge to sell you!

        1. cyberdemon Silver badge

          Re: Practice what you preach?

          Let's see that bridge then

          Do you have any evidence that Nord Stream was blown up at NATO's "behest", or are you just a Russian troll talking bollocks

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Practice what you preach?

            FYI:

            The odds on the 2nd option are currently 1/100 and dropping !!!

            :)

            P.S.

            Здравствуй, мой друг из ФСБ или «Услужливый идиот»,

            Не скучно ли штамповать все эти боллоки !!

            Пробовали ли вы устроиться на настоящую работу, которая не требует столько лежания !!

            От обеспокоенного друга.

            :)

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Practice what you preach?

            Do you have any evidence that Nord Stream was blown up at NATO's "behest", or are you just a Russian troll talking bollocks

            Biden ‘knew of Ukrainian plan to attack Nord Stream’ three months before explosion

            The Biden administration received an intelligence report that Ukraine had a plan for an attack on the Nord Stream pipelines three months before an underwater explosion disabled the natural gas link from Russia to Germany, the Washington Post has reported.

            A European intelligence service told the CIA that the Ukrainian military was planning an attack using a small team of divers who reported directly to the commander in chief of the Ukrainian armed forces, the paper reported.

            The six-person team reported directly to General Valerii Zaluzhnyi, the report claimed, so that president Volodymyr Zelenskiy would not know about the operation.

            The Washington Post report was based on a larger leak of secret documents that was shared by a a US armed services member on the chat platform Discord.

            https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/06/biden-knew-of-plan-to-attack-nord-stream-three-months-before-explosion

            Your "Russian troll" comment suggests you happen to believe it was the Russians themselves which were responsible for the attack. However, that makes no logical sense since selling gas is very lucrative for them and if it was their intention to temporarily restrict the flow, they could merely shut the valves which are in their control.

            1. khjohansen
              Mushroom

              Re: Practice what you preach?

              As a state of war exists between Ukraine and Russia, Russian strategic infrastructure would be "fair game" for any [alleged] Ukrainian attack?

              1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                Re: Practice what you preach?

                As a state of war exists between Ukraine and Russia, Russian strategic infrastructure would be "fair game" for any [alleged] Ukrainian attack?

                I'm sure you can provide a link to the official declarations of war by either party. Don't worry, I'll wait. But strategic infrastructure is always fair game, just as it was when we erased Yugoslavia from the map in another not-war. NATO spox justified bombing power infrastructure as a way to bring the beligerents to the negotiating table. Few years later, NATO complains when Russia does exactly the same thing. But Nord Stream was a jv between Russia and Germany. And Germany is a NATO member. Naughty.

                1. Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch Silver badge

                  Re: Practice what you preach?

                  AC troll positively identified.

          3. Captain Boing

            Re: Practice what you preach?

            would video of Biden at a press conference promising "if [russia invade ukraine] we (who is that then?] will bring an end to it [nordstream 2]" do?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWUuhNd37WI (nice leftie France24 link to keep you cozy)

            perhaps you are a NATO troll talking bollocks.

        2. Blazde Silver badge

          Re: Practice what you preach?

          If you believe that the Nord Stream sabotage op wasn't conducted with the full knowledge and behest of NATO and the aforementioned "investigators", I've got a bridge to sell you!

          It's also not that unlikely it was a rogue or at least deniable Ukrainian op without NATO approval. Very risky for them but someone, somewhere, however high up may have decided the benefit was worth it.

          As far as I know the only material evidence was some private diving op launching from Ukraine. That could have been the work of anyone from Russia, to Zelenksy himself, the US, Estonia, or Finland, etc. You can always conjure up a plausible false flag explanation, and you can always find some rambly quote from Biden beforehand that may have helped inspire a false flag op. All we can really say is that if it was Russia it got them nowhere, but that's par for the course at this point. If it was Ukraine it was hella ballsy. If it was with German approval we're not going to know for 50 years because they'll have made that a condition of approval, even though it did solve a political problem for them.

          Ukraine meanwhile kept pumping Russian gas through their own territory until very recently. Just to add to the mystery.

          1. Grinning Bandicoot

            Re: Practice what you preach?

            The Ukrainians have been managing the news by far better than the cypto-Soviets. As you have stated if done by the Ukrainans it was balsy but not not against a defined treaty whereas the pipelines have treaty rights attached. The Ukrainian can speak as guys in white hats and to Putin's merry bunch as the same guys that ran tanks through Budapest, Prague and almost Warsaw. Since the Baltic has as much radar coverage as the Channel it gets down to money - who has enough to operate an AIS submersible capable of sneaking by all the listens devices in that area.

      2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: Practice what you preach?

        A prime example of the point being made. With international clarity around the consequences for sabotage Nord Stream would not have been attacked. Regardless of who did it.

        There isn't really any need for clarity. It has long been the case that vessels damaging cables or pipelines are responsible for the damage. One of the reasons why the routes are marked on charts and mariners are supposed to avoid dropping anchors or trawl nets there. Problem is pursuing those claims is left to the infrastructure owner/operators, and governments often aren't very helpful. As the OP pointed out, we have the biggest act of intentional economic sabotage in European history, and three Baltic powers haven't been able to identify the party responsible. At leaast not in public anyway. Especially as that sabotage was probably conducted by an EU/NATO 'ally'.

        But as the article says-

        Clarity would look very different. Effective surveillance of undersea infrastructure to identify not just an oil tanker dragging its anchor in the busy Baltic but a rogue trawler off a remote island coast? Sure, we could do that if we wanted to.

        There should already be clarity given the amount of surveillance in the Baltic. Snag is that's not clear enough to detect anchor drags in progress because that would need eyeballs looking at every ship to see if anchors are in their pockets, or chain is out. Plus governments do nothing when vessels turn off AIS, even though that's in breach of IMO regulations. Some have sometimes issued fines, but it's an inconsistent approach.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: Practice what you preach?

          And just to add-

          https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/01/19/russia-baltic-undersea-cables-accidents-sabotage/

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Practice what you preach?

          "Snag is that's not clear enough to detect anchor drags in progress because that would need eyeballs looking at every ship to see if anchors are in their pockets, or chain is out."

          Acoustic detectors would be the best sensors to use. Along with radar to show ships in an area and overflights to find ships sailing dark.

          I wonder if there are detections that aren't mentioned publicly by governments due to letting slip how they might have figured out who/what/where/when.

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: Practice what you preach?

            Acoustic detectors would be the best sensors to use. Along with radar to show ships in an area and overflights to find ships sailing dark.

            I wonder if there are detections that aren't mentioned publicly by governments due to letting slip how they might have figured out who/what/where/when.

            Probably. There are a lot of sensors covering the Baltic to listen for possible Russian submarines and the details on that stuff are always classified. Or curious sometimes, ie I remember reading about strange noises that were later determined to be the clicks from snapping shrimp. I guess it's one of those areas where AI could actually do something useful and help classify underwater noises. But there's a lot of shipping activity in the Baltic, so a lot of noise. I have no idea if it's possible to discriminate between say, a trawler dragging nets for bottom fish or an anchor. Or there might be a brief <snap><crackle><pop> as a power cable is severed and before the power is shut down.

            It'll be interesting to see if there's more information about the cable cuts, and why they've been considered accidental rather than deliberate. I said at the outset that accidents do happen, and people are perhaps being a bit hasty in blame assignment. Investigations take time, but now there's the political angle with states like Finland & Estonia seeming determined to illegally claim the Baltic for NATO, and blockade Russia.. Which would be an act of war.

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: Practice what you preach?

              " I have no idea if it's possible to discriminate between say, a trawler dragging nets for bottom fish or an anchor. "

              Anything being dragged across the bottom near undersea cables is an issue and that's why the cables are marked on charts. If a cable is being targeted intentionally, I'd expect that a heavy metal item is being dragged rather than fish nets. While an anchor can damage cables, a purpose built "anchor" would work better.

              If there's a ship driving dark with underwater noises that sound like something's being dragged and RADAR is showing the ship in that area, it's worth investigating. While that evidence isn't damning, it's highly suspicious.

              1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                Re: Practice what you preach?

                I'd expect that a heavy metal item is being dragged rather than fish nets.

                The nets used to bottom trawl are weighted, so could be described as heavy metal items. Not quite as heavy as an anchor though-

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_S#2024_cable-cutting_incident

                The 11,000 kg (24,251 lb)[31] anchor was recovered and handed over to Finnish investigators. It showed damage, with one fluke missing

                While an anchor can damage cables, a purpose built "anchor" would work better.

                Not necessarily. A decent sized anchor's flukes could snag a cable, drag it along and it'd eventually snap. I worked with submarine cables for a while, and although there are specialised cutting anchors, their presence on an oil tanker would raise a few eyebrows. But I also liked this part-

                On 13 January, Risto Lohi, the head of the Finnish investigation said that when the tanker was boarded the crew had been "poised to cut more cables"

                Err.. right. I'm no expert, but I don't think the typical tanker carries too many 11,000kg anchors. I also now realise where the 'spy ship' claim originated-

                Based on an anonymous source, Lloyd's List reported that Eagle S was, at one point, carrying additional electronic surveillance equipment... the police had conducted an extensive investigation on board and had not found any surveillance equipment.

                How very wiki. But an anonymous source told me that the anonymous source was actually the skipper of the Andromeda.

                1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                  Re: Practice what you preach?

                  "The nets used to bottom trawl are weighted, so could be described as heavy metal items. Not quite as heavy as an anchor though-"

                  To me, it makes more sense to do the job properly if you are going to do it at all. Just dragging something in the vicinity of undersea cables is naughty and trying to do it in a way so one can claim it wasn't intentional isn't going to hold water, so to speak.

                2. MachDiamond Silver badge

                  Re: Practice what you preach?

                  "A decent sized anchor's flukes could snag a cable, drag it along and it'd eventually snap."

                  Sure, but why? Make something purpose built to quickly cut the cable and rig it so it can be abandoned when the deed is done. Having a few 11,000kg anchors in stock would be odd and those aren't easy to move about. Something much lighter could be employed.

                  1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                    Re: Practice what you preach?

                    Sure, but why? Make something purpose built to quickly cut the cable and rig it so it can be abandoned when the deed is done. Having a few 11,000kg anchors in stock would be odd and those aren't easy to move about. Something much lighter could be employed.

                    That gets into intentional vs accidental. So I've only ever encountered cutting anchors wrt cable maintenance vessels, so if you're not one of those and get boarded.. how could you justify having one on board? I have no idea if other vessels like trawlers etc might have one to maybe deal with fouled lines, but I doubt they'd be rigged to cables or chains all the time. Then much the same with anchors. So I'm assuming there'd normally be 4, so 2 bow & 2 stern, and losing one or more might mean heading to port to get it replaced because losing anchors means the vessel can't anchor safely if it needs to.

                    But the investigation showed a long scour line where the anchor dragged, and probably accidental. But also negligent, because the Captain and crew failed to notice an anchor had dropped and it was dragging. So regardless of any intent, the Captain and owners are still liable for damage. I've also been on a few yachts and talked about things like an anchor watch being a legal requirement for vessels at anchor to watch out for dragging and the vessel drifting. Plus things like chains & winches/capstans, so on the yachts I was on, they weren't attached, so if an anchor dragged, it'd eventually run out of chain and lose it. I was told that was because of the risk of having the winch ripped off if it was still attached.

                    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                      Re: Practice what you preach?

                      "That gets into intentional vs accidental. "

                      That's what I said. Dragging an anchor to snag a cable where charts clearly mark a cable lane is already an offensive. If it's intentional, it's better not to be all day at it. Trying some subterfuge to make it look accidental is banking on the belief that the master of the ship is highly incompetent.

            2. Craig 2
              Coat

              Re: Practice what you preach?

              "there might be a brief <snap><crackle><pop> as a power cable is severed"

              Or one of the ship's crew has Rice Krispies for breakfast?

              1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                Re: Practice what you preach?

                Or one of the ship's crew has Rice Krispies for breakfast?

                Just one of the curious things I learned during my time in the trenches. Insulation failure in a cable lets the magic pixies run wild. So once waiting for a report from a field engineer sent to localise a fault. They sent me a pic of a buckled and bulged road. That'll be the problem. An HV oil-filled cable had had a bad day and kinda exploded, shattering the road and our fibre. Shunt faults can be fun that way.

                Then chatting with crew on a cable maintenance ship who told me shunt faults on subsea cables could sometimes be detected by the steam bubbles on the surface. Never saw pics of that, but it takes a fair number of pixies to excite photons all the way along 6-7,000km of fibre cable (Lots of DC to power the active electronics in the repeaters). Modern PFE (Power Feeding Equipment) should cut the power to a cable pretty pronto on detecting a fault, but all part of the fun of keeping the cat pics flowing.

        3. eldakka

          Re: Practice what you preach?

          > There isn't really any need for clarity. It has long been the case that vessels damaging cables or pipelines are responsible for the damage.

          There is.

          It doesn't matter whether something is against the law or the law assigns responsibility if there are no consequences or the law isn't enforced. Which is what's been happening in the Batlic - lack of enforcement and thus lack of consequences.

          The current activities of the various navies in the Baltic is telegraphing - i.e. clarifying - that (maybe) they are starting to take it seriously and may begin enforcing the laws and meteing out the consequences of breaking the laws.

          The first step in doing that is to make sure there is sufficient monitoring being undertaken to accurately determine who is breaking the law. With lax monitoring it is easy to get away with breaking the law since it can't be pinned on the perpertrator. So first step is to up the game in the monitoring and detection of the crime and the perpertrators of the crime.

          Second step is having the ability to detain the alleged perpetrators by having the necessary assets to enforce a detainment in a legal fashion, i.e. while they are still in your territorial waters and prevent them from fleeing into international waters before they can be deatined. If you have no or few assests available to intercept the alleged perpetrators, then again, that's lax enforcement and thus consequence-free sabotage.

          The first two steps are what's going on with these naval asset positionings.

          The final step would be to prosecute and punish the perpetrators, which it seems that Finland is taking seriously at the moment.

          Therefore the current activities are 'clarifying' the stance of the NATO partners to the Russians and anyone else that wants to sabotage the undersea infrastructure that they do now take such sabotage seriously and are intent on enforcing the laws and punishments around such activities in the Baltic.

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: Practice what you preach?

            Second step is having the ability to detain the alleged perpetrators by having the necessary assets to enforce a detainment in a legal fashion, i.e. while they are still in your territorial waters and prevent them from fleeing into international waters before they can be deatined. If you have no or few assests available to intercept the alleged perpetrators, then again, that's lax enforcement and thus consequence-free sabotage.

            That's the tricky bit. The law grants vessels innocent passage through territorial waters because often there's no choice, especially in relatively narrow waters like the Baltic. Detaining vessels on a whim would be harrassment and could be illegal, or expensive. So if a vessel gets detained for a few days for a thorough search and nothing is found, compensation might be due. Or maybe there'd be tit-for-tat harrassment and China, Russia, Cuba etc detain Jeff Bezos's yacht because it was sailing with AIS off again. Warships do this sometimes in international waters, eg the Royal Navy's intercepted a lot of drugs from smugglers.

            But having the assets to increase surveillance and security would be a good thing given the importance of trade and subsea infrastructure. Problem is there's a lot of water, a lot of shipping and not a lot of Navy-

            As of December 2024 there are six Type 45 destroyers and eight Type 23 frigates in commission.

            and budget cuts shrinking the number of new frigates proposed. So with destroyers and frigates needed as carrier escorts, and the number of hotspots we've created around the world, the Navy is spread rather thin. Starmer just announced his '100 year deal' with Ukraine that includes maritime assistance in the Black Sea, but.. with what? Plus he also included the Sea of Azov, which are currently Russian territorial waters, so expecting the Navy to conduct freedom of navigation exercises in those waters could get a bit hairy.

            Therefore the current activities are 'clarifying' the stance of the NATO partners to the Russians and anyone else that wants to sabotage the undersea infrastructure that they do now take such sabotage seriously and are intent on enforcing the laws and punishments around such activities in the Baltic.

            Better late than never, but they could also demonstrate seriousness by identifying and prosecuting whoever blew up Nord Stream. Billions in damage and officially no clue who did that. Plus both Russia and Ukraine have been recruiting useful idiots to conduct sabotage operations. They may get caught, they may never get paid, but our 'leaders' seem far better at creating threats and enemies than providing the resources to manage them properly.

            Which is one of the unanswered questions at the moment. Cable operators are sometimes charged for in-shore patrols along cable routes. If we're planning to increase patrols, who will pay for that? If the costs are going to be loaded onto infrastructure operators, then the cost of bandwidth or electricity will increase accordingly.

    3. Casca Silver badge

      Re: Practice what you preach?

      Good little bot

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Practice what you preach?

      Most people believe Nord Stream was just typical Russian construction & inevitable failure. Kind of like their weapons.

    5. Adam Foxton

      Re: Practice what you preach?

      Germany are part of NATO. And issued an arrest warrant for someone suspected of sabotage.

      This isn't Whataboutism, it's a total logical disconnect. "NATO is saying subsea infrastructure is critical, even while they themselves arrest people who attack it? What hypocrisy!"

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: Practice what you preach?

        This isn't Whataboutism, it's a total logical disconnect. "NATO is saying subsea infrastructure is critical, even while they themselves arrest people who attack it?

        Germany hasn't actually arrested anybody, or explained what it think happened to Nord Stream. Germany has suspicions, else it wouldn't have issued the warrant for the Ukrainian suspect, who Ukraine hasn't delivered. Then the hypocrisy comes from situations like Baerbock demanding a few billion from Scholz to give to Ukraine, when Ukraine may owe many more billions to Germany as compensation for blowing up their pipeline.

    6. Ochib

      Re: Practice what you preach?

      The Swedish Navy confirmed that its ships had patrolled the area in the days before the explosions, but would not comment on why it had done so. An analysis of AIS-data from MarineTraffic by Swedish media Dagens Nyheter showed Swedish navy vessels in the areas on 21 and 22 September 2022, from five to four days before the sabotage.

  3. Guy de Loimbard Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Clearly this is classic response to known reconnaissance and harassments activities.

    Sweden are bang on to go out and patrol their border and beyond if there appear to be shenanigans afoot.

    Also, as we appear to be internationally weak, as sending a strongly worded message is hardly the most terrifying of things to receive, particularly if you have a penchant for annexing neighbouring territory and using military weapons on civilian infrastructure, then showing a little bit of action and force is a good thing surely?

    Even if it is a bit of sabre rattling.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      The next step is to point out the freedom of navigation guaranteed by UNCLOS presumes peaceful shipping, which is not the case if sabotage or espionage are suspected. This gives NATO countries excellent grounds for inspections and patrols in what really has become a NATO lake and, probably, the area in NATO that is least reliant on America.

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        This gives NATO countries excellent grounds for inspections and patrols in what really has become a NATO lake and, probably, the area in NATO that is least reliant on America.

        But what about that 'International Rules Based Order' we hear so much about? UNCLOS guarantees freedom of navigation. It doesn't automatically permit stop & searches for any vessel that might be innocently passing through. NATO can patrol its own waters, or international waters, providing it obeys maritime law, and the Baltic isn't a 'NATO lake', despite the desires of some nations to implement a blockade of Russia. It's yet another escalation, and also risky because boarding a vessel that's underway, or even stopped at sea is dangerous, not to mention expensive and probably pointless given the challenges of properly searching any decent sized vessel.

        And again there's a tinge of irony given the US War of Independence.. John Hancock, give me Liberty or give me death and all that.

        1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          The innocence of vessels is assumed but not enshrined so that states have every right to stop and search. Obviously, this imposes costs but that is true for all defence policies. This year there have been ships causing sabotage and posing serious environmental risks providing more than enough reasons for more robust action.

          Not sure what you mean by such actions posing a risk of escalation: Russia has already escalated and is clearly pushing the limits to see how much it can get away with. I also don't see any irony or parallels to the war of independence; shipping in the Baltic has its own complicated history.

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Not sure what you mean by such actions posing a risk of escalation: Russia has already escalated and is clearly pushing the limits to see how much it can get away with.

            No, there have been claims of escalation and sabotage, which may have been 'misinformation', or simply propaganda to advance the idea of a blockade. About the only definitive act of sabotage has of course been against Nord Stream, which cost the EU and Russia billions.

            I also don't see any irony or parallels to the war of independence; shipping in the Baltic has its own complicated history.

            Maybe read up on the history of it, trade disputes, and tax dodging-

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hancock#Liberty_affair

            then there was the 1812 SMO-

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_War_of_1812#Prewar_incidents

            with close parallels. We blockaded the US from trading with France, because as usual, we were at war with the French. That, plus a bit of an expansionist US having ambitions to steal chunks of Canada lead to President Madison declaring America's first ever war.. And we kinda diverted some forces away from our ancient enemy to deal with the uppity Yanks, sacking Washington and burning down the White House in the process. Oops.

            I'm not sure some Americans have ever forgiven us for that, but such is politics. There was also another incident when a US warship boarded a British one, but can't remember the name of that one. The US commanders were rather unimpressed and basically told the US Captain that they were nucking futs, and did they really want to start a war? And as you say, much the same happened in the Baltic with trade disputes starting a few wars. Blockades and trade are obviously sensitive issues, and Russia has repeatedly warned that blockades would be a rather big red line. But then that's what a lot of geopolitics has been about, ie shutting Russia out of the Med and turning the Black Sea into another NATO lake, plus removing Russia's base from Syria.

  4. bmurphygbr
    Thumb Up

    Not everyday does a Prefab Sprout lyric pop up in a Tech article...

    .. now waiting for you to slip some more into news stories....

    1. The commentard formerly known as Mister_C Silver badge

      Re: Not everyday does a Prefab Sprout lyric pop up in a Tech article...

      Given the Whisky on the Rocks mentioned later, I would think the lyrics to "Glad it's all over" by Captain Sensible to be quoted:

      Submarines in the harbor

      Incognito

      Submarines of your dreams

      Not mine

      The red red sky

      Must take the price

      For giving to the people

      Who never never go to war

  5. herman Silver badge

    Undersea infrastructure

    Will the new undersea infrastructure be provided in a flat pack for user assembly with a single small Allen key?

    1. Ace2 Silver badge

      Re: Undersea infrastructure

      Downvotes? Tough crowd

    2. ITMA Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Undersea infrastructure

      Hang - there are some bits of this missing.

      Items 27a, 47c and 85a.

      There are clealy in the parts list but not present.

      And I've three thingymajigs which aren't listed in the assembly instructions at all.

      1. FirstTangoInParis Silver badge

        Re: Undersea infrastructure

        We’re talking Sweden here so surely we must call the IKEA helpline. Maybe get some meatballs while we wait.

  6. Paul Herber Silver badge

    "Sweden, like its compatriot Finland, has an extensive history of being a small nation reliant on its own resources, yet capable of rebuffing Russian intentions. "

    Finland has a slightly more complicated and contentious historical relationship with Russia.

    1. Sandtitz Silver badge

      "Finland has a slightly more complicated and contentious historical relationship with Russia."

      Since the start of 20th century, sure. Just go further back in history - Sweden and Russia has fought many wars between them, there's a handy list of them at Wikipedia.

  7. VoiceOfTruth

    What a load of bollocks

    "a result of Russia's peerless efforts to enlarge and re-energize that organization."

    I think you mean due to American pressure, including reports of a non-existent 'Russian submarine'.

    Who do you write this crap for? Russia is a lump of land. It is not going anywhere. Meanwhile, which way is NATO moving?

    A little bit more Swedish history for you: Sweden was officially neutral in WW2, but mysteriously was more neutral towards us than it was towards Nazi Germany.

    1. Alfred
      Facepalm

      Re: What a load of bollocks

      "Russia is a lump of land. It is not going anywhere."

      Perhaps you should check the news more frequently. Russia has officially expanded west, declaring land, that previously was not Russia, to now be Russia.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What a load of bollocks

        Putin has. rather like a certain 'german corporal', simply taken a deep breath and gained some breathing room by moving Russias borders a 'little' !!!

        Nothing to worry about, the ukrainians were begging Russia to take them back as they had been treated 'SO WELL' when both part of the pre & post soviet russia.

        :)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: What a load of bollocks

          For the usually 1st down voter:

          Whooosh !!!

          Although I think I have a 'friend' who likes to downvote my posts (which are easy to find).

          Holding a grudge is one thing but EVERY POST !!!???

          I would say 'get a life' ... BUT I think this IS your life, so I will not begrudge you the little you have !!!

          :)

          1. Gordon 10 Silver badge

            Re: What a load of bollocks

            Eh? You're an AC. Any downvoting is by definition not personal and merely a result of a shitty take in the downvoters eyes.

    2. Paul Herber Silver badge

      Re: What a load of bollocks

      "Russia is a lump of land."

      Jailer: We've got lumps of it round the back.

    3. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
      Big Brother

      Re: which way is NATO moving?

      Given the events in DC today, I'd expect the people in NATO HQ in Brussels will be busy planning for a NATO WITHOUT the USA.

      Yes, Trump 2.0 wants to increase defense spending by $200B (taking it over $1T) That extra expenditure will be used to invade Panama, Canada and Greenland all on the same day. FSCK Nato.

      Trump sees Putin busy expanding his empire and says to his people, "I want more than that. No one knows more about taking over countries than me. Do it tomorrow or else."

      Trumps shit show will his all of us. His vanity knows no bounds.

      1. Paul Herber Silver badge

        Re: which way is NATO moving?

        "His vanity knows no bounds."

        Muskie: Hey, what about me?

        What happens when the Trump and Musk ego fields overlap?

        1. FrogsAndChips Silver badge

          Re: which way is NATO moving?

          A singularity?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: which way is NATO moving?

          Ego fields CANNOT overlap ... they simply repel each other like magnets (like pole to pole.)

          When that happens, that is when the Trump/Musk love-in will begin to fade ... it is a given it WILL happen just when is the real question.

          Trump cannot share 'success/victory' with anyone & there are TWO Psychopaths in close proximity, so firewaorks are due at some time.

          Blame he very much 'overshares' usually in the ratio of > 1:99 almost indistinguishable from 0:100 !!!

          (Trump can do no wrong ... it is psychologically impossible for him to hold the concept in his head !!!)

          :)

      2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: which way is NATO moving?

        Trumps shit show will his all of us. His vanity knows no bounds.

        Trump hasn't even got started. Meanwhile, Biden cemented his legacy as the worst President in history by handing out get-out-of-jail-free cards to family and friends. So much for respecting the 'rules based order'..

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge

          Re: which way is NATO moving?

          Entirely because Trump publicly stated he was going to round them all up and throw away the key - simply for doing their jobs and following the Constitution.

          But then, you're fine with that. Though remember, the thing about leopards is they'll eat your face too.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: which way is NATO moving?

            It's always worth bearing in mind that Jellied Eel himself isn't even an American- he's British. Though you'd be forgiven for assuming otherwise, given that (nowadays) he talks almost entirely in US-centric terms.

            This is what you get when someone already right-leaning buys into imported, US-aimed culture war propaganda- something that's pretty much defined in terms of American society and based around their politics. To the extent they start repeating its US-centric talking points almost indistinguishably from an actual right-wing American.

            1. Sandtitz Silver badge

              Re: which way is NATO moving?

              "Jellied Eel himself isn't even an American- he's British."

              He's perhaps claiming to be a Brit, but spells some words in American English.

              Then again William Joyce was Brit as well.

            2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: which way is NATO moving?

              It's always worth bearing in mind that Jellied Eel himself isn't even an American- he's British. Though you'd be forgiven for assuming otherwise, given that (nowadays) he talks almost entirely in US-centric terms.

              Well, you know what they say about assumptions. They make an ass out of you and umption. Plus how very dare you misidentify me as human! Or I could point out that by being considered both 'US-centric' and a 'Russian troll', I'm perhaps striking the right balance and remaining rather more objective than many here.

              (Or I'm just leaning into the paranoia and f'ng with people a bit, and no, that isn't trolling..)

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: which way is NATO moving?

                > by being considered both 'US-centric' and a 'Russian troll', I'm perhaps striking the right balance and remaining rather more objective than many here

                It's understandable why some mistake you for a Russian troll- you do regurgitate and uncritically stick to their state-favoured lines and talking points, after all.

                But while you might enjoy being the wannabe-attention-basking troll when it suits you (like now), you're certainly not Russian- just a useful idiot who parrots the culture-war-exploiting propaganda they churn out for the right wing Americans they've co-opted into supporting them.

              2. Casca Silver badge

                Re: which way is NATO moving?

                Objectively hating Ukraine. Check on that...

        2. This post has been deleted by its author

      3. Jan 0

        Re: which way is NATO moving?

        I'd add Cuba and the Philippines to that list of invasions.

    4. Anonymous Coward Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: What a load of bollocks

      Russia's land-grab is doing more to promote NATO than anything American (so far)

      In the same way as a string of nearby burglaries will lead to spending on home security systems.

      1. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

        Re: What a load of bollocks

        Here's another one of my world shattering predictions: if Russia gets away with their land grab other nations, including Western ones, will start to contemplate land grab from weaker nations. We might even see a call for the reestablishment of colonies (specifically in North Africa or the Middle-East) to exile undesirables to.

    5. Casca Silver badge

      Re: What a load of bollocks

      Still no clue what your name means I see.

      Fuck off to twitter

      Wonder why nations wants to join NATO? Could it be because russia...

    6. James Hughes 1

      Re: What a load of bollocks

      Anyone with the handle "VoiceOfTruth" is certainly behaving in the exact opposite way, and has a massive dose of overexaggerated self importance.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What a load of bollocks

        That handle is an inaptronym, in the same way that any hotel with 'Quality' in its name will be shite, and any company with 'Cheap' or 'Value' in its name will be selling overpriced tat...

        1. Ken G Silver badge

          Re: What a load of bollocks

          Or any nation with "Democratic" in the name isn't and ones with "United" generally have deep divisions.

      2. HausWolf

        Re: What a load of bollocks

        Here in the US, it is usually some self important clown who thinks his clever name is a warning to others.

        But then once they post it becomes obvious they are neither clever nor important and the name is the exact opposite.

        Like you'll see "patriot persuader" or some other nonsense and find out he persuaded no one and is not a patriot.

        Mostly right wing trolls who then get offended that you have insulted them or their feckless leader by noticing they are dumbasses.

    7. IvyKing Bronze badge

      Re: What a load of bollocks

      With respect to Sweden's neutrality during WW2: The US was officially neutral for the first 2.5 years of WW1, but there it was blatantly obvious that they were giving deference to the Allies. Another point was that Sweden and Switzerland were able to stay neutral due to having well equipped armed forces. Look up the history of SAAB.

  8. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    I read a single article yesterday that indicated the powers that be think the latest dragging anchor was a consequence of the terrible conditions on the ship. Apparently the condition of the ship and the crew were discovered to be far worse than expected when the security team boarded her. The article also said the team found a non-mariner and a bunch of suspicious eavesdropping gear on board.

    That doesn't mean that the Yi Peng 3 incident was also an accident, but maybe there's not a trend.

    Edit: Jellied Eel found it, above

    1. LogicGate Silver badge

      So you mean that it is a proven russian spy-ship that just happened to drag an anchor and maneuvre back and forth across the cables?

      Sounds legit.

      Oh, and while not a proven russian asset, Jellied Eel can be counted on to parrot all russian taking points to the point of qualifying as at least a "useful idiot"

      https://www.quora.com/Where-did-the-term-useful-idiots-originate-Who-are-the-useful-idiots-of-modern-society-and-to-whom-are-they-useful

      Therefore: his comments and arguments must be handled with some care.

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Oh, and while not a proven russian asset, Jellied Eel can be counted on to parrot all russian taking points to the point of qualifying as at least a "useful idiot"

        Which is the more useful idiot? The one that thinks for themselves, or the one that simply parrots all Urkraine's talking points from the Steele Dossier to the Heroes of Snake Island and the Goats of Kiev? Me? When the cables and stories broke, I didn't pile on the Russophobia, I simply pointed out that accidents can happen, and we should wait for the evidence.. And it now looks like it might have been an accident. And far from 'logic', you now seem to be trying to save face by suggesting it was a 'spy ship' that somehow 'manouvered back and forth' across the cables.

        So what's your theory about Nord Stream? Urkraine, or gremlins?

        1. LogicGate Silver badge

          O, I am pretty sure it ewas a stupid Ukrainian move.

          From what I read, it was a cancelled action that got carried out anyway.

          Did it double-tap a childrens cancer hospital?

          Murder and decapitate POWs? (or the other way around)

          Rape teenage girls?

          Torture civilians?

          Perform chemical warfare on UK soil?

          Invade a neighbouring toilet in order to steal fucking toilets (and normal ones as well)

          Fuckups happen, but your beloved motrher Russia has proven again and again how reprehensible it is.

          1. LogicGate Silver badge

            Spelling mistakes noted after editing time passed..

          2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            O, I am pretty sure it ewas a stupid Ukrainian move.

            From what I read, it was a cancelled action that got carried out anyway.

            Apparently ordered by Zaluzhnyi, who's currently Ambassador to the UK. Politics gets weird like that sometimes. Or whether he's been parked there to protect him prior to installing him as Zelensky's replacement.

            Fuckups happen, but your beloved motrher Russia has proven again and again how reprehensible it is.

            Propaganda also happens. We've invaded countless countries, bombed hospitals, used chemical warfare. Ukraine has also also committed war crimes and other attrocities against their population since their civil war started in 2014. It's been a very strange conflict where those crimes have also been documented and released to 'social' media. Don't forget to like and subscribe for more videos showing executions of soldiers who are obviously hors de combat. The laws on that one are pretty clear-

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hors_de_combat

            Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions, enemy combatants hors de combat are non-combatants and automatically granted the status of protected persons. Lawful combatants hors de combat receive prisoner of war (POW) status and cannot be prosecuted for simply partaking in hostilities.

            Drone warfare might make surrendering difficult, but it doesn't alter the fundamental laws intended to protect soldiers (and civilians). But propaganda also makes people like you lose any sense of objectivity. It is not 'my beloved Russia', I simply attempt to remain objective. I also think that when the dust finally settles, and our 'leaders' give up on the idea of fighting this conflict to the last Ukrainian, there needs to be an independent war crimes tribunal to identify and prosecute any party that committed a war crime.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              > "Ukraine has also also committed war crimes and other attrocities against their population since their civil war started in 2014"

              Citation required. One V. V. Putin confirmed that Russia had soldiers operating in Ukraine from 2014.

              1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                Citation required.

                No, not really. Telegram is full of videos from Ukrainians dropping grenades on wounded or surrendering soldiers, and I'm not linking any here because they're often rather gruesome. Same is also true from some Russian units. Russia also had soldiers operating in Ukraine long before 2014 given Crimea was home to the Black Sea Fleet. Then there's the propaganda, a lot of which stemmed from one Igor Girkin, who very much embiggened his role and who's claims were seized on by Ukraine and the West. Sad reality is this is still very much a civil war, and many of the 'Russians' fighting in it are the Ukrainians who lived in the DPR and LPR and refused to accept the fascist Banderite regime installed in Kiev.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  > Banderite

                  Ah, yes, "Banderite". You're fond of using that word to describe Ukrainians opposed to Russia, aren't you?

                  It's just a coincidence- I'm sure- that this doesn't merely come across an attempt to smear them all by association with that far-right historical organisation, but that it's also the same smear/propaganda that the Soviet and Russian governments have used against them for decades. One that pushes the pro-Russian line that all anti-Russian Ukrainians are Nazis.

                  1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                    Ah, yes, "Banderite". You're fond of using that word to describe Ukrainians opposed to Russia, aren't you?

                    Nope. I use that word to describe.. well, Banderites. So that could range from the people renaming streets or installing statues to honor him. Or Zaluzhnyi, and photos like the group one shown in this article-

                    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/10/15/ckti-o15.html

                    With Zaluzhnyi and other officers standing in front of portraits of Banderas, and this chap-

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych

                    Shukhevych was one of the perpetrators of the Galicia-Volhynia massacres of tens of thousands of Polish civilians. It is unclear to what extent Shuchevych was responsible for the massacres of Poles in Volhynia, but he certainly condoned them after some time, and also directed the massacres of Poles in Eastern Galicia

                    So a Nazi collaborator, fascist and Ukrainian ultra-nationalist. In the EU and UK, you'd be jailed for celebrating scum like that, but in Kiev, you get a street named in his 'honor', and in Ternopil, a football stadium.

                    I'm sure- that this doesn't merely come across an attempt to smear them all by association with that far-right historical organisation

                    Your big mistake is thinking it's a historical organisation, rather than a resurgent and dominant one in Ukraine. In 2021 Ternopil and Lviv named stadiums in 'honor' of Shuchevych and Banderas. In 2024, Russia bombed a museum in Lviv that opened in 2001 and dedicated to Shuchevych. Our media just described that as 'a museum' and those evil Russians destroying culture. Not a museum dedicated to celebrating the life of a war criminal and murdering scumbag.

                    And then of course there's that red & black flag. Marketed as Ukraine's 'war banner', yet the flag of Banderas's OUN. Much as the useful idiots who chant the 'slava' thing, probably unaware that that was the OUN's version of 'Heil Hitler'. Politicians like Starmer should certainly know better, but for some reason, still slavishly chant it. You don't hear many Poles saying it, but they know it was chanted over the massacres of their people, along with Jews and other 'undesireables' during WW2.

                    One that pushes the pro-Russian line that all anti-Russian Ukrainians are Nazis.

                    Well, Ukraine has a simple solution to cut off that 'propaganda' line. Zelensky, or the Ukrainian government could simply pass a law, just as pretty much every civilised country has done to make celebrating Nazis and Nazi collaborators, or the displaying of their symbols illegal. Given the OUN's involvement in the massacres of Jews, it's something you'd think Zelensky would want to do.. And yet he doesn't. But it's something Ukraine would have to do, if it wants to join the EU.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      tl;dr - Sceptical regarding neutrality of a site which talks about the "NATO-Ukraine war on Russia"

                      > [Link to] https://www.wsws.org/

                      While this might come across as a distraction, given my scepticism regarding your neutrality and the fact I've no idea who these people are, you'll forgive me if I want to check out this self-proclaimed "World Socialist Web Site" before I waste any more time taking what they say at face value.

                      Anyway, someway down the front page, they have a banner linking to an article on a related site (also owned by them) which calls for the freeing of Bogdan Syrotiuk, a "socialist political prisoner in Ukraine" who has apparently been "seized from his home by Ukrainian police in April 2024 [and] charged with “high treason” for writing articles opposing the US-led war against Russia on the World Socialist Web Site".

                      (Roger Waters- a man whose position on the conflict could most charitably interpreted as "someone whose uncritical anti-war pacifism ended up with him being a pro-capitulation idiot on the side of the actual aggressor"- calls for him to be freed. Which is nice.)

                      Anyway, I've no idea if this is a genuine injustice, but the part in bold is already starting to show their true colours.

                      On that same page, it describes the Ukrainian government as "the US-backed regime in Ukraine"

                      Elsewhere on the site it mentions "supporters of the NATO-backed proxy war in Ukraine" and the "NATO-Ukraine war on Russia" [my emphasis].

                      You'll forgive my scepticism.

                      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                        Re: tl;dr - the "NATO-Ukraine war on Russia"

                        While this might come across as a distraction, given my scepticism regarding your neutrality and the fact I've no idea who these people are, you'll forgive me if I want to check out this self-proclaimed "World Socialist Web Site" before I waste any more time taking what they say at face value.

                        That's fine, and it's always good to check the sources. But I have no idea who those people are either. I was simply using it because it shows the photo of Zaluzhnyi with the portraits & busts of Banderas and other OUN war criminals. Because the subject of neo-nazism and the resurgence of OUN ultranationalism can be a bit.. touchy, it's sometimes difficult to find images demonstrating this because they have a tendendcy of being memory holed. Or airbrushed. So this image-

                        https://mronline.org/2022/09/20/zelensky-quietly-deletes-photo-of-his-bodyguards-pro-hitler-patch/

                        A closer look at the R3ICH’s “Operator Skull” patch reveals an even more disturbing detail: a skeleton key displayed on the top right of the helmet is a clear reference to SS Division Leibstandarte, or Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler–Hitler’s personal bodyguard unit.

                        Sporting that kind of insignia might get you arrested in most of the civilised world, but in Ukraine, it's fine. And this-

                        However, this reporter was able to find three online vendors based in Ukraine that sell the patch, which is branded the “Operator Skull” and manufactured by a company called R3ICH, an explicit reference to Nazi Germany.

                        would probably also get those vendors shut down. But not in Ukraine. And even Snopes weighs in-

                        https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/06/28/ukrainian-military-nazi-cross/

                        And attempts to justify why Ukrainians are painting a WW2-era German Balkenkreuz on their vehicles. After WW2, Germany dropped that and use a different cross on their vehicles because of the negative historical assosciations. But not in Ukraine. Snopes also points to another bit of interesting history-

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Army

                        Where Ukrainian nationalists declared an independent Ukrainian state, declared war on the Soviets, murdered Poles and that didn't end well. Then as the OUN, sided with the Nazis and tried much the same thing, assuming Germany would allow an independent Ukraine. But neither Germany nor the Soviets agreed with that cunning plan either. But this is why there's a lot of bad blood and history in that particular region. Much of it inspired by this chap-

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taras_Shevchenko#

                        Who dreamed of a 'Ukrainian identity' that never really existed, in much the same way the Nazis created their aryan and teutonic mythology.. But then Hitler and his goon squad were inspired by much the same school of thought as Shecvhenko and others that emerged at the time. Or it's just normal for revolutionaries, rise up, attack your opressors, seize power (and wealth) and then oppress anyone who doesn't agree. UPA did that, OUN did that, it's successors are doing it again today under the same banner as the OUN. But then parts of Ukraine rejected the OUN 'dream', and the civil war began in 2014.

                        Anyway, someway down the front page, they have a banner linking to an article on a related site (also owned by them) which calls for the freeing of Bogdan Syrotiuk, a "socialist political prisoner in Ukraine" who has apparently been "seized from his home by Ukrainian police in April 2024 [and] charged with “high treason” for writing articles opposing the US-led war against Russia on the World Socialist Web Site".

                        Yep. Haven't read that bit, but sounds normal for the Ukrainian regime. Criticise it, get thrown in jail. Happened to a US journalist, Gonzalo Lira, except he died in a Ukrainian prison after alleging that he was tortured. US State Department did nothing to secure his release, despite being a US citizen. He should have played basketball, then maybe the US would have helped him.

                  2. Casca Silver badge

                    Its JE. Dont expect anything else

        2. Casca Silver badge

          "The one that thinks for themselves". And that would be you then? LMAO, you who parrots all kremls talking points without a second thought. and russophobia spells with small r.

  9. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

    Worrying

    What worries me is that China is also involved in these sabotage operations. I believe they're sending us a message: "If you corner us, we'll gang up with Russia!" and we'll have the same situation as at the start of WWI, where everyone was in an alliance with everyone. Which means that the smallest spark will explode the gunpowder keg, making war almost inevitable.

    I'm glad Trump is in the White House because Biden had no clue how to stop the war in Ukraine. He just kept sending money and arms to keep the Ukrainians from losing, whilst trying not getting his feet burned while doing so. This could've spelled disaster in the long run since both warring factions are exhausted and eager to bring the war to an end and could've let to Russia resorting to nuclear arms to decide the war.

    Russia's elite consider them at war with NATO and believe therefore everything's fair game, including sabotage and murdering industrialists. This could easily spin out of control if it isn't stopped.

    1. Brad Ackerman
      FAIL

      Re: Worrying

      Why would the weakest US president in history (excluding Harrison for obvious reasons) suddenly grow a spine and start sending Ukraine all the things, especially when he's busy trying to wreck American manufacturing? Biden was far too timid, but if you're looking for putting the war to an end it won't come from the MAGA faction.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Worrying

        The primary reason why President 47 (Pres 47) WILL NOT help Ukraine is simply he does not care !!!

        Pres 47 is ONLY interested in Pres 47, using his office to line his own pockets ... like last time BUT 'Better' !!!

        Ukraine DOES NOT make Pres 47 any money ... long or short term without there being too much risk for him.

        Pres 47 will appear to care about the US of A BUT *only* because it makes him money.

        People do not count ANY more as he has been elected, he will reluctantly thank you for your vote, as long as it does not 'cost' him anything !!!

        ['Cost' means more than JUST money but also having to appear 'weak/sentimental/vulnerable' in his eyes.]

        Revenge and retribution against his 'Enemies' is his political raison d'être BUT his primary reason for existing is to be 'Rich' and to prove to the world he is better than his father ever was.

        :)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Worrying

          I thought he was there to line Elon Musk's pockets (like today's USD500M to Star Link)?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Worrying

      "This could've spelled disaster in the long run since both warring factions are exhausted and eager to bring the war to an end and could've let to Russia resorting to nuclear arms to decide the war."

      There is *some* truth in your comment, for a certain value of truth.

      Nota bene: I am not saying I agree with it in toto or even substantially.

      The above quote is an example of simplification leading to misrepresentation of a situation which is then used by one or other of the involved parties to make claims that are not true ... in this instance I would expect the main party to do this would be Russia/Putin as he constantly misrepresents the reason for the 'SMO', as he puts it, and the 'support'that exists in Ukraine for that 'SMO'.

      [Supposed 'Ethnic Russians' etc yada yada ... not going to repeat the nonsense as it only gives it 'oxygen' so to speak !!!]

      BOTH warring countries may be exhausted BUT there is NO common ground to enable any end to the war and the 'Eagerness' is for totally different reasons for each side. The Nuclear threat is not as great as was once feared, Putin has backed down from his threats in reality ... anger may be there BUT even Putin can see the end result of Nuclear War is not good for Russia and I suspect his ego tempers his threats as he want to be remembered as a great Leader of 'Russia'.

      Putins ego is VERY much a driver in this whole situation and may actually be working in Ukraines favour re: Nuclear Treats, by a strange twist, because of Putins REAL desires regarding Ukraine.

      :)

      1. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

        Re: Worrying

        Ukraine actually has no say in this, even though it think it has. Trump will simply tell them to accept defeat and loss of territory in exchange for an armistice and maybe some security guarantees. In exchange some sanctions against Russia could be lifted, like airliners and parts therefor.

        What's worrying is that several European NATO nations want to station troops on Ukrainian soil to enforce the armistice. If Ukraine feels emboldened by having the Europeans cover their back it might attempt to take back its lost territories leading to a European-Russian war with an uncertain outcome.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: Worrying

          What's worrying is that several European NATO nations want to station troops on Ukrainian soil to enforce the armistice. If Ukraine feels emboldened by having the Europeans cover their back it might attempt to take back its lost territories leading to a European-Russian war with an uncertain outcome.

          I doubt there'll be any real armistice, especially any cease fire. The Minsk betrayal ruined any chances of that, as did the fiasco around the Istanbul Agreement. There was almost peace, but then BoJo went to Kiev and told Zelensky to throw his people into the meat grinder. I also agree that Zelensky has no real say in any negotiations. If the US decides to pull the plug on funding this proxy war, then it's over and Ukraine really isn't in any strong position to negotiate.

          I also think it'll be interesting to see if Russia continues to take territory beyond the oblasts it's already claimed. Personally, I think the likely deal will be Russia keeps the territory it's already claimed, and Ukraine is essentially partitioned along the Dnipr. Then a DMZ in the oblasts east, no NATO and neutrality, so much like Istanbul. The danger is Russia continues and intends to take Odessa, much the same was as it did during WW2. That would allow Russia to extend their land bridge to Transnistria, as well as claiming (or reclaiming) a very historic (and symbolic) city. It's also interesting that Trump is busy cleaning shop of the pro-Ukraine war hawks.

          1. Zolko Silver badge

            Re: Worrying

            I also agree that Zelensky has no real say in any negotiations

            I think that the USA will have no say in the the negotiations either, because the Russians will ask an independent international investigations to the North Stream sabotage, and the USA won't want that because it will find what Seymour Hersch has said, that the USA did that and they'll have to pay reparations. Then, Germany will have no choice but the expel the USA from Germany, effectively ending NATO. Hum ... thinking twice about this, Trump might actually accept want that international investigations in order to end NATO, and he'll blame everything on Biden.

            1. Casca Silver badge

              Re: Worrying

              Seymour Hersch? LMAO

          2. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

            Re: Worrying

            I believe there will be an armistice. Both warring factions are completely exhausted and cannot continue this war. And then there's Trump to consider who'll do anything to end this war. The question is simply under what terms and conditions.

            My guess is that Russia will demand that Ukraine, the EU and the US accept and formally recognize its new territories as an integral part of Russia. The former three parties will attempt to get this off the table, even dangling the carrot of the lifting of some sanctions. They're betting that when Putin is removed from office they'll have the chance to negotiate the return of these territories to Ukraine. I'm unsure if that bet will pay off. Russia has no democratic traditions and any future Russian leader is more than likely to be of the same suit as Putin. Even in the unlikely event that a democratic government appears in Russia I doubt it will return any territory over which it has lost hundreds of thousands of young men's lives.

            We just have to make sure that any armistice isn't simply an interbellum for some future conflict. Zelensky wants a minimum of 200.000 European troops on his soil to enforce an armistice. A couple thousand U.S. troops would be much more effective in discouraging Russia from any acts of aggression. It's the Ukrainians I'm more worried about to be honest.

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Worrying

              We just have to make sure that any armistice isn't simply an interbellum for some future conflict. Zelensky wants a minimum of 200.000 European troops on his soil to enforce an armistice. A couple thousand U.S. troops would be much more effective in discouraging Russia from any acts of aggression. It's the Ukrainians I'm more worried about to be honest.

              Zelensky wants a lot of things, but formal attire isn't one of them. He was at Davos, telling the EU, US and Russia how things are going to be. Then again, the latest WEF session has shown a lot of empty seats. He still doesn't seem to realise that it isn't up to him, and Zelensky fatigue is setting in. Trump has also been in the news making his own demands. If Russia doesn't end the conflict, Trump will impose tariffs on top of all the sanctions already in place. And he'll order the coalition of the willing (or weak) to impose tariffs as well! Maybe he's channelling his inner Tina Turner and is going to show just who runs Barter Town.

              Slight snag is.. The US doesn't, and never really has had much trade with Russia, so 100%!%! tariffs on.. nothing is still nothing. Plus the sanctions have already limited any trade US entities can do. But this is why the proxy war has been so good for the US. Funnelled billions to the MIC, crippled the EU economy and weakened the EU as a competitor and in the grand scheme of things, has cost the US very little, other than credibility. The EU might be more affected because tariffs would just further weaken the EU, assuming the EU said 'OK Don!', which useless idiots like von der Leyen almost certainly will.

              Meanwhile, Russia had been busy preparing for the economic war and steadily diversfied away from trade with the EU. They've found new, willing markets, the EU hasn't found as many willing (or affordable) replacements. Russia's economy has grown, not shrunk. People will rant about eggs and butter, but those are also a problem in the US, UK, EU and largely due to self-sanctioning and 'environmental policies' from our Dear Leaders.. And then there's energy. We build (ok, import) windmills, Russia builds (and exports) reactors. The EU still imports a lot of fuel from Russia, and sometimes pretends it doesn't. So the spectacular increase in oil extraction and refining by India.. Or just turning a blind eye to relabelling Russian product, because the EU still really needs it.

              But after the Minsk and Instanbul betrayals, I very much doubt Russia will allow any deal that essentially just freezes the conflict, and while it's still winning, it doesn't really have any reasons to. Trump could try carott as well as stick and lift sanctions, but after all our useless idiots chanting the 'whatever it takes, for as long as it takes!' line. Plus the general baying from the Baltic superpowers like Estonia, Lithuania etc, and assorted war hawks who want to fight to the last Ukrainian, the EU might not accept new orders.

              And yep, it's the Ukrainians (and Russians) who are going to pay the price in blood for our 'leaders' egos.

        2. HausWolf

          Re: Worrying

          A guarantee from t.rump is useless.

          Even though the cost of lives is horrible, any promises from the US for the next 4 years is not worth the paper it is written on.

  10. Sceptic Tank Silver badge
    Coat

    Cable cutting deep dive

    So maybe they should attach sea mines to the cables. Sail over the cable: no problem. Cut through the cable and the mines drift up and instant karma.

    Searching for the Windows 3.1 install disks so I can play me some Minesweeper =========>

  11. Ken G Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    In 1965 Sweden had an atomic bomb and were 6 months away from arming it

    They cancelled the programme instead but I would trust their engineering. Now they, the Finns, Norwegians, Estonians and Latvians are all on the same team again, the band's back together and ready to tour Europe.

  12. cookiecutter

    The nordics & baltics know how to treat Russian scum

    Not like the British!

    Oh you've mislaid some Polonium? That's fine, keep sending our banks your money, we'll ignore that.

    Oh wow!! How clumsy can you be, you left your novichok in the bin in Salisbury!! Don't stress. Our foreign secretary will STILL party at the house of Kgb officers son and give him a peerage....just keep giving the Telegraph £millions to write positive stories & whatever you do, don't let the "Conservative friends of Russia" lose any cash.

    Oh naughty naughty, you've attacked a soveriegn nation?! We're going to HAVE to put you under sanctions, but don't worry we won't implement them for a week so your accountants can shift the money to dubai.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The nordics & baltics know how to treat Russian scum

      in a just world BJ would be in prison for treason awaiting execution

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The nordics & baltics know how to treat Russian scum

      As a Brit I should downvote this, but I just can't bring myself to do it. Seems, no sir, wasn't us, we wouldn't do a thing like that was sufficient.

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