back to article BT unplugs plans to turn old cabinets into EV chargepoints

UK telecom giant BT is pulling the plug on its EV charging ambitions after falling a long way short of the 60,000 street cabinets it reckoned could be repurposed. It was all so different a year ago, when the company estimated that two-thirds of the 90,000 green cabinets squatting on UK streets could be repurposed as …

  1. FirstTangoInParis Silver badge

    Yes but no but ….

    Quite a few of such chargers appear not to actually be accessible to the average person unless you’re using the facilities of the land occupier. Ferry ports and hotels to name but two. McDonald’s is possibly tempting but you don’t have to eat any of their famously tasteless fries.

    1. Gene Cash Silver badge

      Re: Yes but no but ….

      Actually in the US it's the other stupid way round. Chargers are out in BFE with no facilities around, so you usually can't have a quick bite or do shopping while you charge.

      1. Robin

        Re: Yes but no but ….

        Had to Google what "BFE" meant and was ... surprised

        1. Brave Coward

          Re: Yes but no but ….

          An explanation here :

          https://www.slangsphere.com/what-is-bfe-slang/

          Disclaimer : I have no interest of any kind related to that website.

      2. Jason Hindle Silver badge

        BFE...

        What a missed opportunity. In Britain, many a Gregg's Jumbo Sausage Roll is sold to EV drivers waiting for a top-up.

        1. cyberdemon Silver badge
          Headmaster

          Re: BFE...

          You can have Gregg's Jumbo Sausage Roll if you like. I think he also does a "Coq au Sock", and could have given you a tour "inside the factory", until he was locked out.

          (Greggs, i'm sure, would like to distinguish their rolls from Gregg's, and no doubt would be quick to point out the absence of an apostrophe in their company name)

      3. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Yes but no but ….

        "Chargers are out in BFE with no facilities around, so you usually can't have a quick bite or do shopping while you charge."

        Government is to thank for that. It's difficult to get planning permission and permits so companies are building one large facility where it's easy to get permissions and not having to go through the process for each of several smaller stations that would be located near other things and have the need for everybody within a certain distance to approve (without being paid).

        It would not surprise me that if the grants the US claims they have been spending money on are going to scammy companies that find the cheapest land they can with adjacent access to power to keep those costs down and don't give a rat's backside how useful the location is. I also expect that once those companies have received their final grant payments for the installation, they'll fold up the company and the execs will abscond with the profits.

        I've also noticed at the local commuter rail station that the chargers are nearly always "ICEd" since the spaces are right up front. The one DCFC is prohibitively expensive and everything is often broken. It's not in a good area nor secured.

    2. Ball boy Silver badge

      Re: Yes but no but ….

      I suspect the thinking behind this was more about disposing of the cabinet in a cost-efficient way. BT don't need it & it'd cost money to remove it - far better if you can sell it to someone else.

      The legs probably fell off the idea when it was realised that people can't generally park near these green cabinets, that the power draw would almost certainly exceed the original design spec., limiting the concept to charging one car at a time at overnight rates (i.e. no fast charging). Strangely, no commercial operator bit their arm off to buy into the model....

  2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

    Location

    The cabinets on pavements/sidewalks are usually nearest the edge that is opposite the road. That would mean the charging cable would obstruct pedestrians.

    Also, only cabinets that are sited where it is safe to park can be considered.

    1. Lee D Silver badge

      Re: Location

      You'd think that would be one of the things you'd survey before you announce 60,000 sites, though, wouldn't you?

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: Location

        My guess is that someone suggested this as an idea to investigate, a manager said "Yeah, worth setting up a team to see if it's viable". Then someone told the PR team on a quiet day and the whole thing got out of hand.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Location

          Because BT has always had the regulator looking over its shoulder it sporadically attempts to break out with businesses that won't be regulated. Back in the day it was so busy spaffing money on that that it didn't have any to spare for building out cellular networks so it divested itself of the cellular business (and the oversight which came with it which was so obviously not a core part of a communications business.

    2. katrinab Silver badge

      Re: Location

      My local cabinet is between the pavement and the road, but it is at the corner on a junction, in the middle of a set of traffic lights, presumably so that cables from it can go in three different directions, so you definitely couldn't park there.

      1. AMBxx Silver badge

        Re: Location

        our local cabinet is half a mile from the nearest house. Plus on the junction of an A road.

        Anyone got a worse location?

        1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

          Re: Location

          We have one on the edge of a roundabout, behind metal fencing. So you couldn't legally get near it with a car to charge. Hasn't stopped it being knocked _flat_ twice...

    3. Seajay

      Re: Location

      It wasn't the intention to have the charging port on the cabinet. The charging ports are on seperate columns near the green boxes - the power/communications comes from the box, and you then needed only a relatively short connection to where you place the charging columns themselves.

    4. Like a badger

      Re: Location

      I suspect the power supply issues turned out to be a lot more complicated than expected, and whilst individually resolvable the collective impact of it all was to make the scheme much more complicated and costly. Most cabs will have an unmetered supply along with other low-current street furniture. Then somebody proposes charging (say) four cars, and at a piddling 16A that becomes a near 16 kVA unit. If you want fast-ish charging then you might be looking at three times that. Likely the supply can support 3 phase so probably won't need a supply cable upgrade, but the work to convert a low current telecoms cab into a metered 16-64 kVA charging station is going to be almost as costly as starting from scratch. Not only is there the utility supply metering and beefing up the cab to 3 phase, there's also user metering and the legal requirement to offer contactless payment at the charging point, the legal requirement to offer "smart" (grid response) charging, etc.

      Very much like streetlamp charging, which other than a few demonstration projects hasn't been widely adopted despite an appearance of offering both a suitable location, and a source of income to local authorities. And that's not taken off for the same reasons.

      In practical terms, repurposing existing assets is generally complicated and has poor returns, and local authorities and telcos won't be able to compete with charging point operators who have the equipment, skills and experience.

      1. Tom66

        Re: Location

        Streetlamp charging has been widely adopted in London, there are thousands of posts now, with "Ubitricity" and "SureCharge" being the biggest groups. Most are 20A, some are 16A - this is more than enough for normal overnight charging. (16A is roughly 12 miles per hour of charging). Outside of London, agreed, not so much - but mostly due to lack of funding and demand, not lack of capability, since most EV users in suburbs charge on their driveway, and most people who park on streets don't buy EVs, the situation is still a bit chicken and egg.

        Most street lamps have fairly large feeder cables due to electrical design regulations. When you have a street lamp that is connected to a source capable of supplying hundreds of homes on that street, you need a fuse that's capable of interrupting kiloamps of current. It's actually quite difficult to build a fuse that's rated at, say, 1A, that can safely interrupt 10,000kA prospective short circuit current. And you have to ensure the fuse matches the cable rating, so the cable won't burn before the fuse opens. It's certainly possible to do this with careful design, but a more common approach is to fit a street lamp with something like a 20A fuse, use 20A rated cable, and be done with it. Far easier to terminate 20A cable onto the ring main too. Once past the 20A distribution fuse, the street lamp itself will be protected by a low current MCB, but the feed can be tapped off before this MCB for an EV charger.

        So most street lamps do in fact have the capability to be upgraded to 16A charging, and a few can manage more, especially now the luminaire is an LED lamp and requires only around 100W, well under 1A, to operate.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Location

          There's an interesting synergy (sorry) there. As the power demands from the streetlights themselves decline due to the use of LEDs, there's power to spare for EVs, even at night.

          1. katrinab Silver badge
            Meh

            Re: Location

            The savings from going from sodium to LED are certainly worth having, but in the overall scheme of things, it is enough to charge a phone or low-powered laptop, not a car.

        2. David 132 Silver badge

          Re: Location

          > (16A is roughly 12 miles per hour of charging)

          Considering that according to the GLA* the average traffic speed in Inner London is 12mph, there’s a pleasing symmetry to that!

          (*I hope that link backs up my assertion. Google’s preview assured me that it does, but when I tried to visit it it trapped me in an infinite loop of “prove you’re a human” captchas. How very apt as a metaphor for London’s governance.)

          1. Tom66

            Re: Location

            I guess the numerical amusement here is that you could think of cars in London as being on very long 16A extension leads, and that would be enough (in the net) to run them!

            A bit like how fuel economy ends up breaking down in units nicely. For instance, 5L/100km, well litres is volume so that's volume divided by a distance = area? Works out to be the cross-sectional area of a fuel pipe that would be required to refuel your car continuously for that journey.

      2. hoola Silver badge

        Re: Location

        If they are the older cabinets then I assume that there is no actual AC supply, it will be 50v DC

        One would assume that most cabinets are near some electric cables that could be tapped but even then there could be loading issues. As others have said many of the cabinets are not in great locations for parking even with remote connector points as they are frequently on corners (well in my area they are).

  3. Lee D Silver badge

    Sounds like a BT infrastructure project to me.

    60,000 planned and 1 deployed and now we're scrapping it?

    Yep, that's BT.

    1. HorseflySteve

      Re: Sounds like a BT infrastructure project to me.

      Well, it seemed like a good idea but they've tried it and found it's impractical or too expensive to implement.

      I suspect it's the latter as most old cabinets wouldn't have the required electrical supply capacity for charging even one EV let alone many since they were just connection boxes which don't need power or extracted what little they did need from the 48V DC line voltage

      1. cyberdemon Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: Sounds like a BT infrastructure project to me.

        The modern fibre boxes have mains supply, but probably not the 40A or so needed for for EV charging.

        But you are quite right: There's no chance in hell of charging from 48V, anyone who thought that they could do that didn't even bother to speak to an Engineer

        But, I suspect the real reason this was canned was the engineering effort in rearranging the inside of the cabinet and finding room for an extra EVSE box and meter (many street cabinets are unmetered, but that wouldn't wash with the electric company when you mention adding a big load like an EV charger)

        I note in the pictures of the only one they DID install, there is no green cabinet in sight.

        1. FirstTangoInParis Silver badge

          Re: Sounds like a BT infrastructure project to me.

          I wonder if a mobile phone base station would work? There’s a proper monstrosity in one of the cities near me. I do wonder what happened to making them blend in with the surrounding area … oh yeah it would need a drug handover point. I’ve seen the coin return area in a phone box used for this many a time,

          1. cyberdemon Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: Sounds like a BT infrastructure project to me.

            Well it's the same issue, I expect. The cabinets are made by a 3rd party supplier and the cost would go up to add anything nonstandard. It would be easier to put a standard chargepoint -next to- the box, maybe it would save some money on land/planning approvals, but really the whole thing is a gimmick and there is nothing to be gained by integrating the two unrelated functions into one cabinet.

            And indeed, you would need to check the inside of the charging plug for baggies, otherwise there might be an obnoxious-yet-intoxicating smell when you try to charge your EV, and a miffed hoodie standing behind you.

          2. hoola Silver badge

            Re: Sounds like a BT infrastructure project to me.

            Add to that all the Virgin Media cabinets in pale grey that are just put in absolutely anywhere with no thought what so ever.

            Ahh, there is a narrow section on a pavement, let's put it there when 10m away it is wider.

            That piece of green looks good let's put them there in front of those seats and all the flowerbeds the village have put in.

            If you complain you are just told there is absolutely no regulation at all. We are starting to see the same issues now with poles as copper disappears. It is far cheaper to whack in a pole by a duct and string overhead even though all the current cables are underground.

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Sounds like a BT infrastructure project to me.

          "didn't even bother to speak to an Engineer"

          Why would they do that? This is BT manglement we're talking about.

        3. Tom66

          Re: Sounds like a BT infrastructure project to me.

          You don't need 40A to charge an EV. 16A is more than enough for a car. The issue is probably more the placement of cabinets. The pilot charger they put in was about 30 ft from the cabinet. At which point you wonder why it is even related to the cabinet in the first place. It'd be better just to place it wherever the street ring main runs.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Sounds like a BT infrastructure project to me.

            "You don't need 40A to charge an EV. 16A is more than enough for a car. "

            10A is perfectly fine as well. 2.4kWx10 hours is 24kWh. 24kWh x 3.5miles/kWh is 84 miles. A 42 mile commute to work would be quite a distance. Even if it were the case, if there's a chance at topping up at a DCFC once a week while shopping, an EV might still work. Being able to charge at home or work is still going to make owning an EV much more enjoyable. It doesn't have to work for everybody in every case. I could occasionally make use of a small transit van, but the other 360 days each year I don't need one doesn't make them horrible and not worth having around.

            1. Tom66

              Re: Sounds like a BT infrastructure project to me.

              Quite. I've been using 10A granny charger as my main charger needs a bit of TLC (it is 7 years old to be honest, just needs the RCD in it replacing, common fault on older Rolecs). And I'm managing pretty well with that - it obviously takes quite some time to charge up but I doubt I'll have any issue with my typical usage for the next few weeks. Normally I'd use the 7kW wall charger and that can fully charge the battery in about 6 hours.

        4. munnoch Silver badge

          Re: Sounds like a BT infrastructure project to me.

          Quite typical of the numerical illiteracy that pervades anything to do with energy strategy.

  4. TrevorH

    I imagine an EV charger also requires significant quantities of power that a green comms cabinet probably didn't need so the "they're already connected to power" point is probably moot.

  5. Neil Barnes Silver badge

    the Wi-Fi connectivity challenge surrounding EVs

    Educate me. What the hell is that?

    1. FirstTangoInParis Silver badge

      Re: the Wi-Fi connectivity challenge surrounding EVs

      Kids in cars with iPads! As well as parents watching films in 4K on their phones for goodness sake!

    2. cyberdemon Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: the Wi-Fi connectivity challenge surrounding EVs

      Presumably, car, charger and App all need to be authenticated with some Cloud service before the damn thing will dispense any juice.

      Gone are the days when we could have had a coin-operated charger.

    3. Missing Semicolon Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: the Wi-Fi connectivity challenge surrounding EVs

      I guess the owner needs to use their phone to authorise the charging process. No mobile network, or no local Wifi alternative, means that even if you could actually pull 7kW from the cabinet power, you could not pay for it!

      1. A Non e-mouse Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: the Wi-Fi connectivity challenge surrounding EVs

        We have this problem at work. Our estates people installed EV chargers for staff - but installed them in locations with no mobile or WiFi signal. Staff then blame IT when they can't charge their car.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: the Wi-Fi connectivity challenge surrounding EVs

          "Staff then blame IT"

          Naturally. It's got a plug on it so it must be IT.

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: the Wi-Fi connectivity challenge surrounding EVs

        "I guess the owner needs to use their phone to authorise the charging process. No mobile network, or no local Wifi alternative, means that even if you could actually pull 7kW from the cabinet power, you could not pay for it!"

        That's just for Tesla chargers. Every other charger seems to have a payment terminal and it's getting more common for people to sign up their car so the VIN is used for authentication and everything is automatic. Hmmm, I wonder how hard it would be to spoof a VIN. Since they have to be visible from the outside of the car, there's endless chances to collect plenty that will work for charging. Whomever has set up the charger will have worked out how to get paid. No need to worry about them. They won't be using your connection to do it since that opens up all sorts of ways to rip them off with MIM attacks.

        1. Wellyboot Silver badge

          Re: the Wi-Fi connectivity challenge surrounding EVs

          Why not a simple contactless card payment method?

          Obviously it don't provide the important data collection opportunity that a phone sniffing app can do.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: the Wi-Fi connectivity challenge surrounding EVs

            "Why not a simple contactless card payment method?"

            That's the norm for everybody but Tesla although I'm starting to see Superchargers with payment terminals in some videos. Most charging companies also have contactless member cards so you can specifically agree to their harvesting terms for a bit of a discount on leccy.

            What's missing is the ability to pay with cash at an associated store. That's a way to be able to charge if things get broken in the long chain for card payments. Once I have an EV, I think I will have a pre-paid card stashed in the car for emergencies. I've had cards get deactivated when the bank detects fraud and, on a long trip, I could be quite a distance from home with no way to fill up if that happens. Currently, I always keep enough cash on me to pay for petrol, food and maybe lodging when on trips just in case.

    4. Chris Evans

      Re: the Wi-Fi connectivity challenge surrounding EVs

      Many people will sit in their cars whilst they are being charged, they will want WiFi

    5. MyffyW Silver badge

      Re: the Wi-Fi connectivity challenge surrounding EVs

      It's a special suit of clothes woven from unicorn-wool, with very specific optical properties that only smart people can appreciate. Surely you can see that :-)

    6. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: the Wi-Fi connectivity challenge surrounding EVs

      "Educate me. What the hell is that?"

      Modern cars, especially EV's, are ratting you out to the manufacturer 24/7 and they need connectivity.

      I don't see the burning need either. I have a satnav that doesn't need to be connected all of the time. I bring my own music/audiobooks on an iPod or thumb drive. I can use my phone as a hot spot to use the big screen to do a quick web search. I don't pair my phone to the car as that's not a good idea. The public is being sold on constantly being connected and the advertising is paying off. I saw a girl at the grocery store with her mother consumed with watching a video on her phone. I blame parents but they're being fed by a continuous stream of BS about how useful and convenient it is to be "connected". Sorry, I don't see it. Geriatric politicians trying to be hip and cool are being told they have to promote this agenda as well to "connect to younger voters".

  6. alain williams Silver badge

    Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

    According to DVLA there were 32,888,476 cars in the UK in Q2 2024 (warning: spreadsheet) so 300,000 charge-points is about 1%, assuming that they are all working and near to where EVs need to be charged.

    (40,448,909 vehicles in total, including buses & lorries)

    1. Missing Semicolon Silver badge

      Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

      By 2035, there will be far, far fewer. Us proles won't be allowed cars.

      https://www.weforum.org/stories/2016/12/goodbye-car-ownership-hello-clean-air-this-is-the-future-of-transport/

      1. Missing Semicolon Silver badge

        Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

        Ok, downvoters, how about the official word on this: https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/135/science-and-technology-committee/news/101056/clean-growth-report-published-17-19/

        "3. Plan for reducing vehicle emissions: The Government must bring forward the date of its proposed ban on the sales of new ‘conventional' cars and vans to 2035 at the latest, and ensure that it covers hybrids too. In the near-term, the Government must reconsider the fiscal incentives for consumers to purchase both new and used vehicle models with lower emissions. The Government should also work with public services and owners of public land, such as schools and hospitals, to accelerate the deployment of electric vehicle chargepoints, and introduce measures to ensure that chargepoints are interoperable, compatible with a smart energy system, reliable, and provide real-time information on their current functionality. Although ultra-low emissions vehicles generate very little emissions during use, their manufacture generates substantial emissions. In the long-term, widespread personal vehicle ownership therefore does not appear to be compatible with significant decarbonisation. The Government should not aim to achieve emissions reductions simply by replacing existing vehicles with lower-emissions versions."

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

          Well it's a committee report, not government policy. But even taking the report as-is, the key word is "simply". It goes on to state:

          "Alongside the Government’s existing targets and policies, it must develop a strategy to stimulate a low-emissions transport system, with the metrics and targets to match. This should aim to reduce the number of vehicles required, for example by: promoting and improving public transport; reducing its cost relative to private transport; encouraging vehicle usership in place of ownership; and encouraging and supporting increased levels of walking and cycling. The Government should commit to ensuring that the annual increase in fuel duty should never be lower than the average increase in rail or bus fares."

          It's not exactly "poor people won't be allowed to have cars"

          1. cyberdemon Silver badge

            Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

            > It's not exactly "poor people won't be allowed to have cars"

            It only mentions Fuel Duty, which EVs don't even pay and they are still expensive. There are other ways to tax cars to death.

          2. SundogUK Silver badge

            Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

            'It's not exactly "poor people won't be allowed to have cars"'

            'This should aim to reduce the number of vehicles required, for example by: promoting and improving public transport.'

            That is exactly what it is.

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

          ""3. Plan for reducing vehicle emissions: "

          That's all very nice, but how will government pay for all of it? In the US, the government is still buying low efficiency petrol cars and diesel trucks. Same in the UK?

          At this point in time, I think that step one should be to find ways to cut way back on planning permission and permit cost for EV charging locations. If government can work to get out of the way rather than sit around tossing spanners into the works, a lot of the rest of what they are holding meetings about might solve itself. Talking about government handing out incentives for people to buy cars is ludicrous. The incentive needs to be inherent in the choice, not through giving money away to influence those decisions.

    2. cyberdemon Silver badge

      Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

      Apparently, there are 8353 petrol stations in the UK, it doesn't say what the average number of pumps per station are, but i'd hazard a guess at 8, call it 10, so ~80k pumps.

      The 300k EV charger figure therefore seems to assume that it takes 3-4 times longer to charge an EV than it does to fill a petrol tank, but I think that might be nonsense, even for the fastest of chargers and batteries. Most of those 300k chargers will be slow ones that take hours.

      So in other words yes, I think you are correct that 300k chargers (if they are all working) won't be enough to sustain our current levels of road/car use with 100% EV adoption.

      But, there are other reasons why 100% EV adoption will never happen

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

        "So in other words yes, I think you are correct that 300k chargers (if they are all working) won't be enough to sustain our current levels of road/car use with 100% EV adoption."

        The big assumption there is that everybody will be using public chargers all of the time. EV's make the most sense for people that can charge at home/work. It can take longer to charge an EV than fill a petrol tank, but I know that I don't fill up my car until it's down to 1/4 tank. With an EV, if any sort of charging is handy, I'd plug in while I was out running errands if the cost was low and do the vast amount of my charging at home which is not an issue for me. I'm not concerned about people living someplace with no off-street parking since I don't advocate for an abolishment of ICEV's. Only having to use public charging while on long trips or under rare circumstances means I have no need to plan a refueling stop. I'd almost always have a full charge (80-90%) every morning if I plug in the evening before so petrol is one more thing I don't have to bother with.

        I can't fit a petrol tank/dispenser at my house. The city is unlikely to grant me a permit for that and if they did, it would be far too expensive with ongoing inspections and other costs to make any sense. I expect I'd also have a problem with people trying to break into it as well. This means that I must visit a specialized store when I need to buy petrol. It seems that people are thinking of the same fueling model when it comes to EV's. The arguments make it seem like very few are taking into account that charging an EV at home or work is a thing. Most people work for a good portion of the year, not take long driving holidays so if those that can charge at home are adopting EV's, the number of public DCFC's is reduced from estimates. Still an issue on bank holiday weekends, but nothing's perfect.

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge

          Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

          Exactly.

          In reality, most people will charge at home or work because it's more convenient (and cheaper!) - hence the requirement for every workplace car park to have charge points for the staff.

          A better comparison might be motorway services, because most* public charging points are basically only for long distance or emergencies.

          There are only 95 motorway services in the UK, yet somehow it works.

          * Residential areas without offstreet parking are the real problem. Those may need on-street private charging to be viable.

          1. Wellyboot Silver badge

            Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

            >>There are only 95 motorway services in the UK, yet somehow it works.<<

            That's because you only need to have your wallet reamed once by the motorway fuel costs before learning to start every long trip with a full tank and then finding supermarket fuel stations if you need them.

          2. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

            "* Residential areas without offstreet parking are the real problem."

            That's the fruit at the very top of the tree. Pick the oranges lower down and then re-examine the problem to see if a solution presents itself. In a city such as London it's not just not having off-street parking, but there not being much parking at all so owning a car can be much more difficult, much less an EV. If you want to live in London, it makes sense to create a lifestyle that doesn't need a private car. I don't hire a car when I visit. If I go to Wales and need a car to run around taking photos of old stuff, I'll take the train way out of the city first. Usually, my friend where I often visit will have a spare car I can use which saves on trip expenses. Last time he got two free tyres and a fresh glug of oil out of the deal.

    3. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

      Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

      There are around 8,000 petrol stations in the UK[1]. Assume an average of 10 pumps[2] per station gives us around 80,000 petrol pumps. You can fill up a car with petrol in less than five minutes. An EV with a fast charger can take 15-30 minutes.

      Based on these back of the vape packet sums, I think 300k (working!) public chargers is a fair number.

      A twist to this figures is that a fair amount of EV owners charge at home and rarely use public charger (I'm in that group) whereas when I had a petrol car I only ever filled up at a public petrol station.

      [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/312331/number-of-petrol-stations-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/

      [2] Yes, it's a guess by me

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

        "Yes, it's a guess by me"

        A rather heavy guess. I can't think of one with more than 8 except on motorway service stations which I try to avoid because of their prices..

        "[I] rarely use public charger"

        But I'll guess that when you do you'll want one to be available with no longer a wait than in a queue for a petrol pump. That means a degree of over-provision in places where they're needed most - such as motorway service stations.

      2. cyberdemon Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

        I beat you to it, but at least we agree on the statistics :)

        I disagree on the relative throughput though. The 300k will definitely NOT all be fast chargers (the electric grid just wouldn't handle 300k fast chargers, for starters), and 5 minutes is a slow petrol pump.

        Don't forget also there is extra time because if waiting 30 minutes, you will want to have lunch / a piss / etc, so could end up blocking the charger for longer than it takes to charge.

        1. cyberdemon Silver badge

          Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

          To back up my statement on the grid: Note that at 6pm tomorrow, the UK grid will have about 500MW spare capacity. That's enough to run an additional 2000 "fast" EV chargers, in the whole of the UK.

          1. HorseflySteve

            Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

            "at 6pm tomorrow, the UK grid will have about 500MW spare capacity" for about 45mins judging by the graph, which wouldn't be long enough to charge many EVs unless they're cable of very fast charging.

          2. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

            "To back up my statement on the grid: Note that at 6pm tomorrow, the UK grid will have about 500MW spare capacity. That's enough to run an additional 2000 "fast" EV chargers, in the whole of the UK."

            Fast chargers wouldn't be the best use case. You wouldn't have cars just sitting around plugged in to those. What can make sense are cars plugged into Level 2 chargers waiting until tariffs are really low. When that spare capacity comes around, EV's that are plugged and and can be sent current rates can switch on to take that load. If you are lucky, you could do a lot of charging when rates drop due to oversupply. Wind turbine operators would love that since they can be the first switched off if there's no need for them. Having EV's plugged and and ready to absorb the load means those turbines keep generating revenue. Besides cars being able to receive current pricing, they might also be able to signal what the owner is will to pay and how much room they have in the pack. That would let the grid operators see in close to real time where they have loads that will switch on given certain conditions (price).

            1. Wellyboot Silver badge

              Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

              Market economics - if all purchasers indicate the price they are willing to pay, the price asked will never fall below that required to occupy the current supply capacity (starting with the deepest pockets)

              1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

                "Market economics"

                I get that, but over time there will be a meeting of the minds. If you set your car at a price too low, you will rarely, if ever, get that price. If you set the threshold at 10% below usual tariffs, you might be in with a very good chance at getting that often enough to make a difference. If you really need to charge up, you have to pay what you must. On the other side, the grid can see what sort of market they have to aid in planning since most generation can't be switched on and off in an instant. If everybody is gunning for £0.02/kWh, it might be decided there really isn't a market worth serving.

      3. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

        "A twist to this figures is that a fair amount of EV owners charge at home and rarely use public charger (I'm in that group) whereas when I had a petrol car I only ever filled up at a public petrol station."

        I just wrote pretty much the same thing using more words (I'm like that).

        I like taking long road trips in the car, but lately I've been looking at long trips via train (in the US. Yes, there are 2-3 trains left). Ideally, it would be nice to park my EV (when I get one) at the train station and plug it in to a sloooooow charger or one I can program with my return date and the system can top me up when it has capacity. When I get to my destination, I'd like to hire an EV (at the train station) so I can tootle around or get to where I want to go and back. So it would be great if I could go visit Yellowstone in an EV and stomp around in an active super volcano taking photos where that would need DCFC's along the way to fill up since I'd be doing a lot of camping as well as part of the trip. A much longer trip to Seattle or Denver to visit friends could be done on a train so it makes sense if that's a better alternative to driving.

    4. MatthewSt Silver badge

      Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

      Don't forget that the numbers you're looking at there don't include private chargers (unless someone is letting the public use their home one)

      1. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

        Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

        Some providers allow you to share your private charger with the public. The charger can't be in, say, your locked garage.

    5. Tom66

      Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

      For passenger cars the calculation is:

      9,000 miles pa average, 30 million private vehicles.

      Charger can dispense ~12 miles per hour of range

      Each car therefore needs 1 mile per hour of usage (avg car spends 95% of time parked up). Let's assume this is primarily done overnight when the user parks up. So they need an average of 24 miles per day charging, but they will utilise the charger for the full time.

      If they have a 150 mile range battery (winter worst case), they need to charge this up every 6 days, assume 5 days to give some buffer. And a charge every 5 days for 24 miles per day of charging requires 10 hours of charging - which is fine for an overnight charge.

      So we need around 6 million EV chargers. However, about 50% of people can charge at home on their driveways, so the real figure is probably around 3 million, plus say 10% to account for visitors, high season and so on. Rapid chargers deployed appropriately could probably replace many of these chargers, rough calculation would be one 150kW rapid charger would replace 40 slow AC chargers, so a single 'EV station' with 8 rapid chargers in a town could compensate for a lack of 320 slower chargers.

      It's definitely a long way off happening, with the UK government currently in a paralytic state where they assume the Free Market(TM) will deal with the problem.

      For rapid chargers, the situation is better, because they make a lot more money for operators.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

        Also worth noting that people with driveways are more likely to have two (or more) cars sharing a home charger too. Another unknown statistic to guess at :-)

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

          "Also worth noting that people with driveways are more likely to have two (or more) cars sharing a home charger too. Another unknown statistic to guess at :-)"

          With ~300 miles of range in many EV's now, charging 2-3 EV's at one household should be that hard to sort out. If every one of those cars needs charging everyday, they obviously live in the wrong place.

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

            Yes, that was my point. 2 or 3 car owners sharing a single charger at home so skewing the stats downwards on the demand for public chargers. But like I said, it's an "unknown" statistic to go with the other unknowns mentioned above (I think my dowvoters missed that bit, or they are just rabidly anti-EV and just assumed I was pro-EV simply by looking at facts and being logical :-))

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

        "However, about 50% of people can charge at home on their driveways"

        There's also an equivalent for people charging overnight at a hotel so some of the need for public charging for holiday makers will be taken up by that. One might plan to stop at a fast charger, have dinner nearby and finish topping up at the hotel on a much slower charger. Something such as a sports stadium wouldn't need fast chargers as much as many slower chargers so EV's can fill up while their owners take in a match. Commuter train stations are another good case for slow chargers, even really slow chargers. A car plugged in for 10-11 hours doesn't need a phat connection. Even a cheap 1.2kW plug might be all that necessary. 5A per outlet shouldn't be that hard to install. That would likely compensate the distance for most people using commuter rail. Want faster? Pay more. The idea is you can fit the cost to your needs if you have time to play with.

      3. SundogUK Silver badge

        Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

        The free market fix to this is people keep using ICE vehicles. Don't blame the free market for a problem entirely created by government interference.

      4. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

        Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

        "Charger can dispense ~12 miles per hour of range"

        I'm still stuck on this figure when considering the acquisition of an EV. My 46 year old truck "charges" at about Mach 4.

    6. katrinab Silver badge
      Megaphone

      Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

      No. If we want to go all in on EV, every single parking space needs to have a charger, and there are more parking spaces than cars.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

        A quick scan of a number of UK motoring related websites indicates the average UK car driver average anything between 6,500 to 7500 miles per year, depending on which site you look at which indicates that many if not most EV drivers will only need to charge about once per week so should be quite happy to park up in a spot with no charger most of the time. With all the obvious caveats that many people will want to keep maximum charge "just in case" and some (or even many) will do occasional longer journeys. But I don't think we'd ever be in the position of needing a charger at *every* parking space and enough spaces for all cars, 24/7.

        But remember, that is an average. Some will do far less than that and others, me included, will drive many, many more miles than that, there's no one size fits all.

        1. katrinab Silver badge

          Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

          But when you are looking at averages, one thing people forget is that most miles are driven by people who drive lots of miles, and it is the miles driven that determine charging needs, not the cars.

          I drive an average of about 3 miles a week and visit a petrol station about once per year. There is barely any difference between me and someone who doesn't have a car; most of the time I'm walking past it to go to the local bus stop, so you probably shouldn't be putting too much of a weighting on my car when considering your average requirements.

          1. cyberdemon Silver badge
            Mushroom

            Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

            > I drive an average of about 3 miles a week and visit a petrol station about once per year.

            Er, it sounds like you could save a lot of money on road tax / insurance / MOT / etc. by not bothering to keep it, then?

            Obviously you have your reasons, it might come in handy on the day before armageddon

            1. katrinab Silver badge

              Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

              Road Tax is £0. Insurance is about £250 - the gap between women's and men's car insurance got even bigger after they banned sex discrimination. MOT is about £200.

              The 3 mile trip would be a lot more inconvenient by bus, so it is worth it for me.

              Taking a taxi would mean being alone in a vehicle, with a man, who if the weekly report of local magistrates court cases is anything to go by, probably doesn't have a driving licence or insurance. In common with all women, I choose the bear.

              1. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

                Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

                It sounds like you could use a good car rental or car sharing service for your needs.

                If I needed a loaner, I'd check out the big box hardware store near me. They rent pickup trucks. Cheap. As loss leaders, figuring that people will load up on bricks, lumber, potting soil, etc.

                1. katrinab Silver badge

                  Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

                  Rental car would be more expensive and far less convenient because it isn't sitting outside, I would have to go somewhere else to pick it up.

                  1. cyberdemon Silver badge
                    IT Angle

                    Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

                    TBH for a 3 mile journey, I often find that a bicycle (not even an electric one) is quicker than a car, with even mild traffic. If there's any risk of heavy traffic or parking problems then the bike is a lot more reliable

            2. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

              "Obviously you have your reasons, it might come in handy on the day before armageddon"

              It depends on how important that 3miles/week is. There's no way I could walk to the local market and return with a week's worth of shopping and there isn't public transportation that's any closer.

              Planning for Armageddon is a mug's game. It's like going full prepper just in case Yellowstone spews a few hundred cubic miles of vaporized rock into the atmosphere, which is more likely, but still not very likely over the next 100 years. I've got far more than a week's worth of food on hand, but I'd get really bored eating just what I have without replenishing the perishables.

          2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

            "I drive an average of about 3 miles a week and visit a petrol station about once per year. "

            Yes, I suspect your end of the "bell" curve is a bit steeper than the other end, ie few car owners drive so few miles :-) But, if anything, that means the majority are probably driving at the lower end of the average mileage given by those sites, ie 6,500 miles per year, or maybe even fewer miles due to the skews introduced by the relatively few very high mileage drivers (such as me). Which only bolsters the likelihood that many, many people would not need to be charging an EV more than once or twice per week.

    7. David Hicklin Silver badge

      Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

      All those cars will not change over to electric overnight - it is going to take years and those who cannot afford a more expensive electric model will be doing everything they can to extend the life of their current one

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Is 1 charger for every 100 cars enough ?

        There's not a good way to model how many cars to chargers there needs to be without jumping in and continuously refining the numbers. Before that, there would be a need to make assumptions about how and where people will charge region by region. Not having at-home charging could be a big dissuader for some time so charging in denser cities might not be as large of an issue as one might think. I could see a big advantage for people living outside of a village that have to travel to the next town to fill up with petrol. Chances are that they would be more likely to have off-street parking and can fit a charging point. The variables go on forever and are just guesses until there is data. Maybe people living in small villages are much more technophobic so they are a group less likely to consider an EV. I don't know.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    WiFi. Ah yes.

    Great for raising revenue by intercepting folks browsing without telling them and selling the data on to advertisers.its not as if BT has previous Phorm for that.

  8. D@v3

    Wi-Fi connectivity challenge surrounding EVs

    Sorry, but i thought that 5G was supposed to solve the connectivity challenges around EV's (amongst other things).

    Admittedly that was before 5G was hijacked by the mobile networks, and we were subject to their half arsed implementation.

  9. John Sager

    East Lothian?

    Are there any EVs up there? It's hardly representative of the UK in general. Sounds like the boosters of this idea didn't ask the right people for a technical appraisal before going ahead. Not an uncommon occurrence...

    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: East Lothian?

      I can remember a story about an EV owner in the Orkney Islands that had a 1st Gen Nissan Leaf. Those only went about 80 miles on a full charge when new. They charged it with a "granny charger" exclusively. It was a unique situation. They didn't drive a lot and it was more of a chore to fill up with petrol where they were. The car fit the owner's needs.

      Even in the US there are places where the power lines go but petrol stations hadn't followed. I like to plan trips off of the interstate highways and sometimes when I try to find petrol stations that line up with when I'd need them, there aren't any. At first I would scratch my head and say to myself, self, there must be a petrol station in this town and it's just not getting an icon on Google maps. I'd then "drive" the town with street view and, yup, no petrol station. Where does everybody fill up? The usual answer is 20-30 miles one way or the other and sometimes further than that. I'm guessing they would also fill up some cans at the same time to store at home. Those stations might also open at sunrise and close near sunset so it was important that I noted their hours of operation so I wasn't camping in the forecourt waiting until morning for them to open. If the town's general store had a couple of plugins on the side and a payment terminal, filling up and hours of operation wouldn't be a problem.

  10. Helcat Silver badge

    Wonder if the issue was as I first thought: The locations of those green cabinets?

    Used to work in telecoms (but not BT), and cabinets were sited mostly where they were out of the way, and centrally to the area being covered, so a fair number wouldn't be in convenient places for charging an EV. And they won't be on the curb side, so that's trailing cables or they need to put in something to carry the power under the pavement and to the curb, which would then need protecting from those idiots who park up on the pavement...

    So I'm not surprised they tried one and realised it wasn't going to work... it's simply not practical.

    But at least they tried and now they're looking at better WiFi cover so people can connect to the network when they want to use a more conveniently sited public charger...

  11. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

    A bit late...

    Not just my comment being a bit late, but even EL Reg got scooped by BBC Radios 4's "The News Quiz" from last Friday evening :-)

  12. Zepheris_

    Still waiting

    I'm still waiting for my cabinet to be upgraded beyond 10mbit ADSL2

  13. Jan 0

    My prediction

    I'm seeing a big future for boot friendly, petrol or derv powered chargers, with horrific emissions.. They're probably already on AliBaba.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: My prediction

      That's what I thought was meant by "hybrid" cars when they first came out. An EV with a small lightweight petrol generator running at it's most economical speed/load with minimum emissions keeping the battery topped up as and when required, but also charged from an external charger to make the petrol last longer/go further. I never dreamed they meant something as complicated as the dual power, dual drive train that they actually are, especially the ones with tiny batteries barely able to power the car for 20 miles at best :-)

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like