back to article Debian 12.9 arrives, quickly followed by MX Linux 23.5

Debian 12.9 - the latest point-release of Debian "Bookworm" - emerged at the weekend and coming hot on its heels is one of the more interesting downstreams, MX Linux 23.5. Although MX Linux is based on Debian, it is significantly different – for instance, it contains the new Xfce 4.20 desktop, which appeared in late December …

  1. Mage Silver badge
    Windows

    Saner Ubuntu?

    I moved from RH (Late 1990s) to Debian (2002), then Ubuntu (2006). But more than a decade ago moved to Mint + Mate desktop as a mostly sane/stable system. Finally ditched windows for regular desktop use in 2017. Ditched Windows Server about 2009, had been running 2nd server with Debian some years previously. The server is now also Mint + Mate so as to only have one distro to think about.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Saner Ubuntu?

      "The server is now also Mint + Mate "

      Why not just Mint?

      1. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

        Re: Saner Ubuntu?

        > Why not just Mint?

        You can choose Cinnamon, MATE or Xfce, but there's no desktopless edition.

        LMDE, the Debian-instead-of-Ubuntu flavour, doesn't ask: you get Cinnamon.

    2. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: Saner Ubuntu?

      > The server is now also Mint + Mate

      Mint as a server?

      I was going to say "that's courageous" (in the _Yes, Minister_ sense) but there's no reason why not.

      TBH, about 2014, I built a home NAS and I used Xubuntu, complete with Xfce, just because it was a bit easier to manage Linux with a GUI back then.

      But in lockdown in 2020, I ordered a few bits of kit to enable me to built a newer, much more capacious home NAS server from the bits in the spares box. Raspberry Pi 4, a USB 3 hub that connected 4 external drives and powered the Pi as well. No cooling, so almost silent in operation.

      It worked well and was solely administered over ssh and using Webmin. Ubuntu Server, for ZFS, with no GUI, no X11, nothing. I removed snapd, multipathd, couchdb and a few other things to reduce the CPU/RAM load.

      I think I would still prefer to use a distro that understands the notion of a headless server in favour of a more familiar OS.

      That Pi was replaced with a 2nd hand HP Microserver after a couple of years, and TrueNAS Core imported the ZFS array no problem at all. It is still running right now, about 2m from me.

      1. Tim99 Silver badge
        Linux

        Re: Saner Ubuntu?

        I'm retired; but initially found myself strangely worried by skim-reading "easier to manage Linux with a GUI back then". Then I realized that it was a home NAS, so that's all right.

        The rest of the post was interesting. I use the Pi5 a lot. My "server/TV recorder" is a 2GB Pi running 64-bit Bookworm Lite with a 2TB SSD booting from a 64GB "Endurance" microSD in a Flirc case (Runs cool and silent). The SSD was "on special" (Professional paranoia - I bought 2). Backup is a nightly crontab rsync script across the network to another Pi5 "workstation" with the other SSD and an occasional larger HDD. I use fio and dumpe2fs to log the performance and use/lifetime of the microSD (should be years). The cost of the "server" 2GB Pi5, case, card, and power supply was AU$145 (excluding drives:~£75, US$90) which I thought was very reasonable compared to a NAS.

        In my previous work experience I round that (inexpensive) NAS arrays were not as reliable as I hoped. When disaster struck recovery was sometimes difficult. These days, the read-speed advantage of multiple HDDs is often bettered by a SSD. A simple periodic rsync to another device is possibly more reliable. I note that the current Amazon prices of a Synergy single and a 2 bay NAS are $265 and $315, these have less RAM and slower processors. For my use (on a Gigabit LAN) connecting an external SSD to a 5Gb/sec USB 3 port, compared to the performance if using a PCIe M.2 or SATA interface is not significant.

      2. Roopee Silver badge
        Windows

        Re: Saner Ubuntu?

        > I removed snapd, multipathd, couchdb and a few other things to reduce the CPU/RAM load.

        My NAS server is an old HP EliteBook i5 running Proxmox hosting TruNAS Core (with ZFS on 5 old data centre SSDs on the passed-through internal disk controller) and a backup Windows AD DC. The CPU rarely goes above 4%, but >3% is the little Win 2008 VM...

        I haven't optimised Proxmox or TrueNAS (I wouldn't know how) but I spent many frustrating hours optimising The DC to stop it using even more CPU and constantly running out of RAM and disk space! One day I'll figure out a suitable FOSS replacement for the AD. The domain is still the same one I originally set up on NT4 in 2001.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Saner Ubuntu?

        > I think I would still prefer to use a distro that understands the notion of a headless server in favour of a more familiar OS.

        I quite agree with this sentiment. I think it's part of the reason (aside from stability and all the other goodness) that I landed on Debian for most of my environment. That is, the laptop I spend most of my time in front of is Debian+XFCE, and the servers (network services, fileservers, etc.) around here are mostly Debian, with no desktop selected during install. I often install xterm afterwards on the headless servers, for those few occasions when I want a "local" terminal (via X forwarding), but in practice it doesn't get used much.

        This kind of setup is what disappointed me a bit about MX Linux when I tried it a while ago (circa 22.x?); that is IIRC there was no notion of "headless" in the installer. The MX desktop XFCE setup is quite nice, but I wanted a bit more control over what ended up on the sysdisk during installation.

        There's much to like about MX Linux, but it seems more targeted to desktop than server use; or at least it seemed so at the time -- probably worth a revisit.

  2. LBJsPNS Bronze badge

    So MX, when do we get a KDE version that isn't an antique?

    1. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      > a KDE version that isn't an antique?

      It was a while ago now but this graphics artist wrote an in-depth piece on what KDE 5 did that KDE 6 still couldn't a few months after release.

      https://www.davidrevoy.com/article1030/debian-12-kde-plasma-2024-install-guide

      1. Citizen99
        Linux

        Talking of 'antique' I've been happily using TDE Trinity Desk Environment, a fork of KDE 3.5, for years. On Devuan. A very nice packaging 'exegnu linux' named after the Devon river Exe.

        1. Uncle Slacky Silver badge

          It also runs well on MX.

  3. Jeff3171351982

    timeshift

    snaps appear to slow down my timeshift backups

    1. Tim99 Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: timeshift

      I'm old, and probably inflexible; what was wrong with apt? Caveat: I avoid Canonical.

      1. wolfetone Silver badge

        Re: timeshift

        apt?

        Pfft. Build from source bro!

        1. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: timeshift

          Bah! Real Programmers(TM) write all of their code from scratch in assembler. In fact, Real Programmers(TM) turn their noses up even at the idea of running an operating system and directly address the hardware with their code.

          1. David 132 Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: timeshift

            Ahem.

      2. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

        Re: timeshift

        > what was wrong with apt?

        I have covered this _at length._

        E.g. https://www.theregister.com/2022/11/09/canonical_conference/

        For instance yesterday I wrote a story on CVEs in rsync. Canonical patched it the same day. There are _seven_ versions of Ubuntu in current support:

        https://ubuntu.com/blog/rsync-remote-code-execution

        14.04, 16.04, 18.04, 20.04, 22.04, 24.04, and of course 24.10.

        Snap means _one_ Firefox package can run on all of them. That's a massive maintenance saving.

        (The older ones don't use the Firefox snap, but they could, and in the future this means more savings not less.)

        1. Tim99 Silver badge
          Coat

          Re: timeshift

          You might like using Canonical. I don't have a problem with people charging for development and support; but not at the expense of openness, clarity, and security. I started learning *NIX in the late 70s, and am concerned that some have severely compromised "The Unix philosophy" for purely commercial reasons. Partly as a result of that, I'd recommend Linux Mint Debian Edition for casual desktop users, rather than Ubuntu. If still in paid employment, I'd probably use Devuan. Snaps are turning up for some Raspberry Pi installs, which may be troubling.

          Perhaps the Urban Dictionary entry Ubuntu is an ancient African word, meaning "I can't configure Debian" has some truth?

          Mine's the one with "UNIX: A History and a Memoir" in the pocket >>====>

        2. ianbetteridge

          Re: timeshift

          Utterly baffled at the people downvoting this. You might not like snaps, but this is an entirely accurate description of why Canonical uses them. You might disagree, but the rationale Liam is giving you is what Canonical says.

    2. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: timeshift

      > snaps appear to slow down my timeshift backups

      Details, _please._

      I am trying to collect genuine repeatable demonstrable info about issues with snaps.

      For instance, there are reproducible problems if home directories are not on `/home` -- I heard from someone whose setup mounts home directories over NFS to `/h` and that breaks assumptions hardwired into snapd.

      So, snaps of what? Backups from where, to where, on what FS, using what mechanism?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: timeshift

        > I heard from someone whose setup mounts home directories over NFS to `/h` and that breaks assumptions hardwired into snapd.

        For the needs of my environment, that's enough of an issue by itself -- I simply can't have a package management tool dictating how/where $HOME is provided -- so snap is a non-starter. apt is fine. So is rpm (yum, dnf) for that matter. pkg for the BSD's, and so on.

        I understand the perceived benefit to OS and package bundlers of things like snap, e.g. 1 snap to run everywhere and all that, but the functional tradeoff doesn't work for me at all.

        If it were just me and my laptop then I might feel differently, though to be honest I'm still bothered by Canonical Inc's handling of snap -- it feels insidious, camel nose under the tent. Gives me the same uncomfortable feeling as systemd early on. Regardless, the technical issue with NFS $HOME is enough to rule out snap, as there are more systems and more than just me in this environment.

      2. LionelB Silver badge

        Re: timeshift

        > For instance, there are reproducible problems if home directories are not on `/home` -- I heard from someone whose setup mounts home directories over NFS to `/h` and that breaks assumptions hardwired into snapd.

        Absolutely. It is (was?) a show-stopper. The officially sanctioned Linux distribution at my workplace is Ubuntu, and last time I installed it it was completely non-functional because home directories are NFS-mounted somewhere other than /home. I spent a frustrating few days with our department IT guy trying various suggested workarounds to get snap applications (in particular Firefox) to run, but no dice. The obvious measure of soft-linking non-/home home directories to /home did not solve the problem.

        Having said which, this might be out of date info - apparently recent snap versions do now allow home directories other than /home: https://snapcraft.io/docs/home-outside-home, including remote mounts:

        $ sudo snap set system homedirs=<homedirs>

  4. Colin Bull 1
    Happy

    Did no know MX was available on Pi

    Moved to MX linux to avoid systemd crap about a year ago. Not disappointed. Was disappointed that Raspberry Pi still uses systemd. That MX Linux is on raspberry has make my day. I hope I can use the RPi imager prog to allow easy setup for headless Pis .

  5. eszklar

    MX Linux

    Big fan of MX Linux, use the 32-bit version on my Vaio P sub-notebook.

    1. blu3b3rry
      Happy

      Re: MX Linux

      Likewise, a big fan. Running it on a daily driver 2015 HP Elitebook for over six months now, still really happy with the way it performs to the extent they even got a donation from me.

      Also pretty impressed with how lightweight the Fluxbox version is, it works rather well on a elderly dual core Celeron Intel NUC.

    2. Locomotion69 Bronze badge
      Happy

      Re: MX Linux

      Yet Another MX-32 bit fan here: works fine on my Samsung NC10.

      Not the fastest in town, but fast enough to be usable and provides "up-to-date" compatibility given that its original software went out of maintenance ages ago.

    3. YAGOG

      Re: MX Linux

      Me too - switched my elderly Dell Latitude laptop from Mint to MX a few years ago and have found no reason to regret it. (No disrespect to the Mint team - the issues I had seemed to stem from Ubuntu. The laptop was a bit too elderly to run Cinnamon smoothly, but was OK with XFCE - on a newer machine I'd probably have tried LMDE before giving up on Mint)

      Subsequently I've also installed MX on both a Raspberry Pi 4 and on a refurbished Intel NUC - agan with good results.

      (Incidently, NUCs that are not up to Microsoft's minimum spec for Win 11 are starting to appear on the "refurbished" market at Rpi-like prices)

  6. Ball boy Silver badge

    Another MX vote here

    Started with Ubuntu about, oh, 13 years ago. No, that's a lie: I _actually_ started with SCO SVR4 back in the day - but work kind of obliged me to use the dreaded Redmond offerings for many years. Carried on tinkering with Redhat and others in my spare time: call it an act of defiance! When I setup in a new business direction and had a free hand, I settled on Ubuntu and put up with a few systemd-related shenanigans occasionally. The snap-delivered Firefox randomly crashing was the last straw (yes, I know I could have bypassed that with an apt-based version - but that's not the point: there shouldn't be a need to dodge around such a basic problem) and I migrated to MX for anything needing a GUI.

    Never been happier. It's not been without drama though: I distinctly remember having to hard reset one box - but replacing a stick of RAM was the cure to that embarrassment. Other than that, it's all just been...well, rock-solid stable.

    1. Altrux

      Re: Another MX vote here

      Might try it, just for fun. Currently running Ubuntu 24.04 with zero problems. Never had an issue with snap or systemd - these days, everything seems to work very smoothly. The only thing causing recurrent problems is Gnome Files (a.k.a. Nautilus), which is still flakey and still can't handle big trees of photo dirs, etc.

      1. Nameless Dread

        Re: Another MX vote here

        Another MX fan here: Dropped MS so went Mint, then MX because systemd. Flirted with GhostBSD (liked it a lot) but couldn't easily load driver for my printer, so MX it is and happy with it.

        (BTW, server is Rpi 3B+ - runs Apache web server and mySQL like a dream.)

  7. steelpillow Silver badge

    mate

    MX sounds cool, but I don't get on with xfce and have been with MATE ever since I once tried Gnome 3. So Devuan it has been for a good few years now.

    That slow update cycle? Yea, fantastic! I hate constant trashing of my carefully-honed setup. When the hardware dies is a good time to refresh my desktop, and not until.

    1. RedGreen925

      Re: mate

      "So Devuan it has been for a good few years now."

      It has been a few months for me, the "however less percent UNIX" comment by one the Microsoft plants doing their trojan horse systemd work in Linux during one of their releases put me over the top on dropping that garbage. Also got rid of the assholes pulse audio at the same time for pipewire. Really liking it so far and despite their claims my system boots and shuts down much faster without that junk involved in the process, the good old tried and true sysvinit works wonders doing it quickly.

  8. The Central Scrutinizer Silver badge

    What's wrong with flatpacks?

    1. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      > What's wrong with flatpacks?

      Here's a challenge for you.

      In single tweet or bluesky post length, explain how a new version of a Flatpak gets from the server to your computer.

      1. The Central Scrutinizer Silver badge

        I download it via the software manager. Simples.

  9. Smartypantz

    Not a shock, but a blessing

    " but Debian's very slow-moving release cycle can come as an unpleasant shock"

    The slow moving release cycle is one of the things that makes debian so attractive. Some of us has to actually use our digital tools, not just play around with endless patching and change for the sake of change.

  10. rcw88

    Slow moving release cycles? yes please..

    I've been on Debian servers since 2015, slow means less time upgrading and tinkering to fix problems. Heaven if you just want things to WORK.

    Ubuntu desktops, I've been on LTS22.04 until recently, but that was a jump from 18, 24.04 is proving to be a right PITA, broken apps, broken icons, its fast, but that's because its on an i7 with 16GB RAM. Am losing the will to fight with Ubuntu, but I'll not be moving off something Debian based.

    "Reaches for credit card to buy another SSD to try Devuan whilst not trashing a half built machine...." 35 quid for 500GB Crucial SSD..

    I'm migrating all [OK most] of my services onto a Mac mini i7 running Proxmox, but my DNS is staying on an RPi model B because it runs straight off my UPS along with the router and a switch, thus keeping network access working in a power cut, for a while anyway.

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