back to article Microsoft, PC makers cut prices of Copilot+ gear in Europe, analyst stats confirm

Microsoft and its close circle of PC maufacturers slashed the price of Copilot+ PCs being sold into Europe in Q4, an analyst confirmed to The Register, yet it still didn't make the impact hoped. The average distributor sale price for Copilot+ laptops dropped by about 10 percent in November compared to October, according to …

  1. Zippy´s Sausage Factory

    This chimes with warnings from Gartner last year that buyers were being discouraged by the premium price tags carried by AI PCs and a lack of any real killer applications that make use of the hardware.

    The killer apps is the key point... if you can't show something that hardware can do that others can't - and something people will use - you might as well just pack up and go home right now.

    1. jngreenlee

      If I May...

      Another concern I've heard from multiple organizations is from the CISO's office. While I'm not certain that a NPU/TPU at it's core can be used in a programmably malicious way, if we've learned anything about security, it's expect the unexpected...especially with anything new in the environment. Given the short life of CISOs, SecOps teams have had to (& been made to?) take that to heart.

      Even if NPU/TPU arrays are harmless, it only takes one (Spectre-like? vPRO-like?) weakness in how they are addressed, and you probably got yourself the CPU. Sprinkle in some awareness of that "AI can replace coders" marketing fluff, glance over at the "AI" sticker on the machine and I suppose I'd be grabbing a hammer, too! No probabilistic worms getting past me ;-)

    2. Dave K

      Exactly this!

      CD drives took off because they could hold massively more data than floppy disks, and provided much faster transfer rates too.

      USB sticks took off because they also massively exceeded the capacity of floppy disks, and were easier to write to (and much smaller) than CDRWs.

      3D Graphics cards took off because the resolution, quality and speed at which they could render games far surpassed what CPUs were capable of, so were rapidly adopted by gamers until they became pretty-much mandatory.

      SSDs took off because your PC booted much faster with an SSD than a mechanical hard drive, and applications opened in a fraction of the time also. SSDs are now mandatory for a lot of newer AAA games.

      AI PCs.... Nope, I got nothing....

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I don't think lack of a killer app is the problem here, the problem is AI isn't, and probably won't be for some time, a one size fits all plug and go solution to anything. It still takes a reasonable amount of time and effort to get AI setup in any meaningful way.

      I think we need education etc to catch up a bit first before AI becomes a widely deployed thing.

      We've seen it before in tech loads of times, notably in web development...there was a golden era where relatively few web developers existed because being able to develop a website meant you needed to have pretty deep knowledge...then education caught up and we had the JS Dev explosion which lead to stuff like funny moustaches and Wix...now every man and his dog can build a website in under an hour.

      Something similar will happen with AI...for now, it's still fairly obscure technology and requires effort and knowledge...a few years down the line the soy latte waxed moustache gang will turn up, then eventually every man + dog will be able to roll their own AI.

      The time to make money with it is now, the time to start looking at the next technical developments is when your barber has a diffusion model with inpainting built into his mirror to try hair cuts before you commit to them and a large language model to keep you occupied with bullshit small talk while he works...we're kind of there now with web development...most devs think they're working on a multi billion dollar project that will launch them to Facebook infamy...but really they're making menu apps for Indian Takeaways and pubs using prefabricated objects they import with npm through shadcn. We're long past the point of designing things from the ground up, it's all frameworks, modules and extensions. At some point the gatrillions of AI models will start to converge a bit and we'll end up with just a handful of them that people will build frameworks, modules and extensions around to make deploying customised AI a paint by numbers affair.

  2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "Vendors are pushing AI PCs with a premium. Businesses want to move to AI PCs"

    The first is true. But is the second? Do businesses even want to change PCs on the scale that vendors want?

    One of the hardest tasks in the world seems to be a rethink.

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      re : " Do businesses even want to change PCs "

      Just wait.... MS will get into bed with the PC makers and make a subtle change in the H/W requirements for W11.

      Bingo... Kerching.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: re : " Do businesses even want to change PCs "

        The kerching they're hoping for is the kerching from sales of new H/W because as things stand it's new H/W that sells new licences.

        Now it is possible that they might achieve a kerching by bringing out a "new" version which doesn't have the H/W requirements but only as new licence, not as a free upgrade from W10. Likewise there's the kerching already offered in the form of paid-for extended support of W10. Universal free upgrades from W10 have no kerching (the H/W-limited free upgrade blocked the possibility of class actions from recent buyers).

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      I don't know about other businesses but where I'm at the 4-year upgrade cycle has been replaced by "you're only getting one if yours breaks" cycle.

      1. Camilla Smythe

        "you're only getting one if Microsoft breaks it."

      2. big_D Silver badge

        Funny, we are looking at going the other way. Windows 7 - Windows 10 was a huge amount of work, as we had to replace 2/3 of the PC fleet to get them capable of running Windows 10... 5 years later and we are at the same point again...

        Spreading the load might be more wasteful in terms of getting rid of perfectly good kit (we are looking at selling to a refurbisher or leasing going forward), but ensuring we have relatively modern kit and we don't have to shelve all other activities during the year replacing a huge number of PCs will mean we have time to look at other stuff that keeps getting put on the back burner.

    3. heyrick Silver badge

      "Businesses want to move to AI PCs"

      No they don't. The economy is shit and everything costs a lot more than it used to, but the business putting up prices too much will cause people to move to other, cheaper, options.

      What real businesses want from PCs right now is longevity and reliability, not to be another headache for the beancounters to have to deal with. Oh, and for the underpaid and under-respected hoi-polloi to show just a little bit of enthusiasm even though everybody knows that they only turn up at all anymore because bills need paid...

    4. big_D Silver badge

      We are looking at replacing a couple of hundred PCs this year. The 25% price premium for an equivalent Copilot+ PC, compared to our, current, standard laptop makes them very unattractive, when there is no foreseeable benefit for the NPU.

      A majority of those PCs are desktop PCs in the production, used to display the current state of the plant equipment or with recipes for which chemicals to put into the reactors etc. Not a lot of point in paying a 25% premium there.

      The backoffice laptops, maybe, just maybe, long term there might be a benefit, but is it worth paying out 25% extra for all of those laptops, "just in case"? And most of the users work on the terminal server most of the time anyway, so probably makes more sense to look at an AI server at some point?

      Maybe 10% will need it in the future, so cheaper to buy without NPU now and pass those down the line to whoever needs a new PC/laptop when a power user actually has a use case for AI and get them a much more powerful AI PC at that point...

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    AI does have it's uses......

    making joke images, like zuck zucking orange cock, once you figure out how to get round the guard rails.....

    as for business uses, it makes so many cockups that it confidently tries to gaslight you into believing, it's pretty much worthless.

    Americans seem to be the most gullible, so possibly a market there!!!

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    .. the prospect of tariffs on technology made in China

    "In this case it is the prospect of tariffs imposed by the incoming President-elect Trump on technology made in China. This could bump up the price of a laptop for American buyers by 68 percent, according to recent reports."

    How can this be? We were told that China will pay for these tariffs, not us.

    [/sarcasm]

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: .. the prospect of tariffs on technology made in China

      I was wrong, so wrong:

      Trump vows to create ‘External Revenue Service’ to gather tariff income

      https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2025/01/14/congress/trump-to-create-external-revenue-service-for-tariffs-00198155

      "For far too long, we have relied on taxing our Great People using the Internal Revenue Service (IRS),” Trump said in a post on his social media platform Truth Social. “Through soft and pathetically weak Trade agreements, the American Economy has delivered growth and prosperity to the World, while taxing ourselves. It is time for that to change."

      1. MrAptronym

        Re: .. the prospect of tariffs on technology made in China

        Genuinely thought this was a joke. Not looking forward to the next four years.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: .. the prospect of tariffs on technology made in China

          The USA always taxed the world forcing the $ as reserve currency and only allowed currency for oil, and forcing US IP and licensing on the world's knowledge and creations.

          Now they take the next step, extortion.

          I agree, the next decade will be tough.

          1. Snake Silver badge

            Re: ...exortion

            You're kidding, right? Tariffs are a "tax" on the consuming public in everything but name; "extortion" means that other country's consumers are 'forced' to buy goods that are under a tariff penalty.

            Which, of course, they aren't.

            Consumers outside the tariff-imposing country still get to choose from whom they purchase their goods from. In contrast, consumers inside the tariff-imposing country do not get that choice and must pay any higher prices imposed by said tariff policy.

            You are under the commonly-held belief that tariffs "help" the economy...because equivalent tariff retribution doesn't happen, apparently, plus the belief that "companies pay the tariffs" and never pass down that increase costs to the consumer. So the costs of good imported goes up; the quantity of goods exported to any country apply retaliatory tariffs goes down.

            Smart move! [/s]

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: .. the prospect of tariffs on technology made in China

          "Genuinely thought this was a joke"

          It is. It's a joke on those who believe it.

      2. ecofeco Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: .. the prospect of tariffs on technology made in China

        Oh. Dear. God.

      3. imanidiot Silver badge

        Re: .. the prospect of tariffs on technology made in China

        "Trump does not understand how tariffs and taxes work" Part 6321.

        I for one can't wait for this to explode in his face as anyone with a modicum of understanding of world economics and trade can predict it will.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: .. the prospect of tariffs on technology made in China

          He'll blame it on somebody else. If all else fails, his new best buddy Musk who, unthinkingly, is lining himself up to be fall guy for whatever goes wrong.

  5. Blackjack Silver badge

    It seems most people in Europe do not want expensive computers that do things they care about worse.

  6. Neil Barnes Silver badge

    the value proposition of these devices still needs to be communicated more effectively

    or: persuading people to pay more for something that they neither want nor need.

    1. abend0c4 Silver badge

      Re: the value proposition of these devices still needs to be communicated more effectively

      They seem to be confusing the "value proposition" for the end user, which seems to have been communicated beyond reasonable doubt, with the "value proposition" for the vendor, which is unlikely to get much sympathy, especially at a time when Microsoft seems to be upping the price of its Copilot-infested subscriptions.

    2. simonlb Silver badge
      Stop

      Re: the value proposition of these devices still needs to be communicated more effectively

      There is no value proposition to these devices while MS's shit AI is rammed into them for no good reason. No-one asked for it, so why should they pay for it if they don't want it or need it?

      At least this price reduction will benefit anyone who just wants a new PC but will only ever run Linux on it.

      1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

        Re: the value proposition of these devices still needs to be communicated more effectively

        I wonder how much power this chip eats in its 'not in use' configuration, and whether it will adversely affect laptop battery life?

  7. ChrisElvidge Silver badge

    If prices in the US go up

    PC manufacturers will have to get rid of stock somewhere. Reduction in the prices for Europe, and rest of world, will surely follow.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A - I, no no.

  9. MrAptronym

    Does the AI bit even matter?

    Is anyone buying "AI PCs" or are they just buying new computers that happen to come with the additional processing units? Is this demand driven, or are manufacturers just moving in this direction? (Maybe to justify billions of dollars of investment?)

    The fact that Apple's computers seem to be dominating the "AI PC" market seems telling, because Apple has its own ecosystem and I have not seen evidence that people are switching to mac for AI stuff. All their new computers will be classified as "AI PCs", but that doesn't mean it is driving sales. It isn't like we have two models, one with the extra AI junk and one without it but otherwise the same.

    The "copilot+" branded computers are the only mainstream product that I see being marketed as purely focused on AI and the article makes it clear that people do not seem interested.

  10. rwill2

    Isn't an a Mac or PC+GPU better than ARM/Intel AI PC

    I mean you can run LLMs with Mac and PCs AMD/NVIDIA GPUs already much better supported. Would you really want to run Llama 3 LLMs on a Surface ?

    ARM based variants of Qualcomm’s Snapdragon but has advertises Intel "Built on Windows 11 and the latest Intel® Core™ Ultra processors."

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/business

    From Intel AI PCs are about running LLM locally, but how many people will really do that? https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/developer/articles/technical/ai-pc-brings-larger-llm-development-to-your-desk.html

    I mean doesn't co-pilot run the Microsoft Azure cloud anyway? Seems a very fine point about privacy and running "local plugin/extension in your IDE" maybe.

  11. Jason Hindle Silver badge

    All those TOPS

    "Copilot+ PC is Microsoft's branding and specifies systems with an NPU that performs at 40 TOPS or more, where TOPS is one measurement of AI performance."

    But what are they all for? If you use Chat GPT, Claude, Copilot or Gemini, online, those TOPS don't make a difference. Perhaps some of the cloud processing will be distributed out to local machines, but when? Far from being a killer application, Recall is wanted by nobody.

    If I needed a new Windows laptop, tomorrow, I would probably buy a Copilot laptop. I don't need a new Windows laptop tomorrow.

    1. blu3b3rry

      Re: All those TOPS

      That's yet another thing that makes all of this intensely confusing.

      If Clippypilot et al are cloud based what am I paying all the extra £££ for a NPU for? I can "run AI stuff" on an ancient 2008 HP just as well as a brand new Lenovo seeing as none of the processing is done locally.....

      I still haven't found a use for any AI stuff barring a giggle at it getting the number of "r"'s in "raspberry" wrong time and time again.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: All those TOPS

      "Far from being a killer application, Recall "

      It's turning out to be a killer application. It's killing the market. A new twist on an old concept but we live in interesting times.

  12. Tron Silver badge

    It's not the economy, stupid.

    People do not want Clippy AI or Recall. They present a risk to businesses. Recall can be re/purposed as spyware. 'AI' is experimental according to the vendors own Ts and Cs, and you do not run an enterprise system on experimental kit. W11 and these PCs are too great a risk to implement for serious work or commerce. It's bad enough being beta testers for Windows updates as it is. These systems and W11 magnify such issues.

    1. Jedit Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      "Recall can be re/purposed as spyware."

      I'm glad you put the / in there, because Recall's explicit purpose is to report back to a base outside your company. I'm not sure how to describe that in any other way but as spyware, even if you know about it and agree to it.

  13. LVPC

    Fortunately it's still possible to build a desktop without an NPU.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      And without M$!!

  14. ecofeco Silver badge

    Cut price on Co-Pilot?

    LOL, I ditched it when it was free. I might, MIGHT, consider it if they pay me to use it. And not pocket change, either.

    1. imanidiot Silver badge

      Re: Cut price on Co-Pilot?

      They couldn't pay me enough to put up with something like that as is. I might accept it if it was free and I was unconstrained to completely wipe it and install my OS of choice.

    2. navarac Silver badge

      Re: Cut price on Co-Pilot?

      Obviously selling like hot cakes, then? NOT!

  15. Sceptic Tank Silver badge
    Go

    Artificial intelligence. Genuine Stupidity.

    So generally a business is run by determining where there is a market for a product and then supplying the demand. But I suppose if you have $-billions to blow you can afford to pursue folly so long as your pursuits don't let you end up cash strapped and desperate the way Intel did.

    1. MrAptronym

      Re: Artificial intelligence. Genuine Stupidity.

      First, social media sites were rolled out and took over the internet. Then the iPhone came out and changed how we use computers. Then Uber came out and showed that you could make a middleman app and skim massive profits.

      Since then, silicon valley has been desperate for a new thing, but no one wants cryptocurrency, no one wants NFTs and no one wants (or can define) the metaverse. Gen-AI at least seems superficially like it may be useful, and you can always rebrand things like machine learning, so companies are all in on this fad.

    2. David Hicklin Silver badge

      Re: Artificial intelligence. Genuine Stupidity.

      But there is an awful lot of "Someone else is doing X, we MUST be in there in case we get left behind!!" attitude in business where actually analysing the cost/profit benefits goes out of the window.

      AI is certainly one of those and somehow they have to recoup all those billions$ that they have splurged out.

      Self driving cars are another one as I doubt we will ever see a proper level 5 car in our children’s lifetimes, never mind ours. I would love to have seen them cope with the snow, fog and floods we had earlier this month in the UK - I guess it would be a HAL response of "I'm sorry but I can't do that Dave". As for single track lanes with passing places.....

  16. DoctorPaul Bronze badge

    "Something will have to give in 2025, and I think it's AI."

    FTFY

  17. ComicalEngineer

    Co-Pilot was automatically installed on my aged (but perfectly adequate) Win 10 desktop at the last update. I didn't want (or need) it and it lasted just long enough on my machine to be uninstalled after the update.

    It can join Cortana, Siri, Gemini and all the other voice activated crap in the corner of Hell reserved for such things.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Colour me surprised.

    It's almost as if consumers, over the last 20 years, have learned that paying a premium for a new feature isn't worth it in the long run.

    We've been in the tech doldrums of incremental improvements for a long time now...and I think with the NVIDIA 50 series release we've reached peak bullshit territory. We might get back to innovating again sometime soon.

  19. frankyunderwood123

    "Co pilot what"??

    How many people in the market for a new laptop would really know what co-pilot is and what they would need it for?

    Many may have heard of it, but not really understand what the fuss is about, nor know why they need it.

    So I guess this puts co-pilot PC's into the realm of the computer geek.

    But why would someone who understands LLM's want to spend £1000 and up on a laptop when they can build a custom PC with a Nvidia GPU in it?

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