Tesla, Musk double down on $56B payday appeal

Tesla CEO Elon Musk and a group of other top executives employed by the electric car company have launched an appeal against a series of court rulings that blocked his $56 billion pay package. In December, Judge Kathaleen McCormick failed to reverse her original decision to void the package, despite a move by shareholders to …

[Excused Boots]

"What could be the motivation for continuing to fight the case?”

Well maybe he’s a bit short of cash!

You know attempting to influence the politics and governments of other countries, doesn’t come cheap, obviously the poor lamb is temporarily bereft of funds, and needs help.

Well it’s that or the guy is a complete greedy fucking twat. It’s hard to tell isn’t it?

[Mentat74]

Re : "It’s hard to tell isn’t it?"

No it isn't..... It's definitely the 'twat' option...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or is it just a case of "I want what I want"?

[MachDiamond]

"Well it’s that or the guy is a complete greedy fucking twat. It’s hard to tell isn’t it?"

Can we choose "all of the above"?

[NoneSuch]

It isn't hard to tell at all.

No one is worth paying 56 million a year, never mind 56B !

[BadRobotics]

I can send him a dollar, if that would help…

[veti]

If every human being on earth sent him a dollar, he'd still be out of pocket by approximately a factor of 7.

That's how stupid this pay award is.

[Tilda Rice]

Why single Musk out for your "influencing" hate?

Bill Gates, Soros and friends all influence politics. Gates funds the Guardian. In a more sinister way, Soros funds NGOs (no transparency) even has NGOs in Ukraine - who would have thought.

Labour sending its foot soldiers to the US to influence the US election.

Influence is everywhere. The juvenile spleen venting over Musk says more about you than him.

[VicMortimer]

Doesn't make sense

Why would the board not want him to leave? He's bringing the company down, people who want to buy electric cars don't want to buy them from a neo-Nazi.

[lglethal]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Well that's easy, the board are his family and other sycophants. They get paid a sh&t ton to agree with everything he says.

If Musk leaves and a proper CEO is installed, they might try to reduce the amount of money going to the board and shareholders (of which the board members are as well). They would probably have to make statements (I.e the truth) which would cause the share price to drop to a more realistic level and the board members would lose out doubly.

We can't be having that now can we?

[Like a badger]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Because the board are all his accolytes, appointed by him. That's how he secured the ludicrous and unmerited pay award in the first place.

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Re: Doesn't make sense

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment

[Richard 12]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Don't need to couch it in those terms, it's a matter of Court record that they are "conflicted".

[well meaning but ultimately self defeating]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Irrespective of what you think of the guy - why do you think it was unmerited - is it fundamentally unreasonable for a creator of value to be awarded a portion of it?

[Jamie Jones]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Tesla 2024 - Net income $2.17 billion. That's income, not profit.

He wants $58 billion. Even an Elon simp can do that maths.

But hey, let's pretend the company made a profit of, say, $250 billion.. Tesla has 122,000 employees.. Now, many were not directly involved in Teslas success, you could argue, but many were far more responsible for it than Elon. But anyway, the average profit per employee in this fictitious example would be over $2 million per employee. Yet, still, you think Elon should get $58,000 million?

Your definition of "portion" is highly exaggerated.

[Jedit]

"Your definition of "portion" is highly exaggerated."

As is his definition of "creator of value". "Extractor of value", perhaps.

[Tilda Rice]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Funny how you to try to be patronizing, yet you only quote a single quarters numbers around cash income.

Also, believing that CEO remuneration is based on income. The package was based on stock options, and shareholders wanting Musk to retain a controlling interest.

You clearly don't understand how any of this works (or this topic) kid.

[Andy 73]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Nearly 50% of all investment in Tesla is retail - i.e. individuals. Most of them do so because they believe in Musk.

He may be bringing the company down (and failing to deliver on his many promises), but it is his vision that has brought in the majority of that investment. Without it, Tesla would be just another car company - and valued as such.

The board don't want Musk to go because it would tank the stock. Sales might increase, but not anywhere remotely near enough to justify the current stock price.

Tesla may not develop a new consumer car going forward - it's all AI, robotaxi and other unproven business ideas - but that is fine because so long as the investors believe in jam tomorrow it doesn't matter that the car side of the company has essentially ground to a halt.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Except that it does matter, eventually. And when that "eventually" arrives, it may coincide with the bursting of the broader AI bubble which would have some pretty wide consequences.

[Andy 73]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Eventually... sure.

But before then he, and most of the board and senior management will have extracted enough wealth to live extremely comfortable for the rest of their lives.

The smarter amongst them may also leave the company early enough to blame any eventual downfall on the people who replaced them, before moving on to the next company in the queue.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Doesn't make sense

"The smarter amongst them may also leave the company early enough to blame any eventual downfall on the people who replaced them, before moving on to the next company in the queue."

It's not too hard to find lists of them already. One could have a well stocked parade with all of the execs that have left.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Doesn't make sense

"The board don't want Musk to go because it would tank the stock. "

Maybe, but Elon has sold roughly half of his stock and the board/senior execs don't hold any stock they have once it's vested and they can sell it.

The last mainstream vehicle Tesla released was the Model Y in 2020. I consider those as a Model 3 that can't say no to a second helping of desert too often. They have 2 very similar mainstream vehicle offerings that are on the high end of the price scale for their segment. The S and X are luxury priced. The Cybertruck is just wrong on too many levels.

If the Semi was released in 2019 as promised, it might have had a chance, but it wasn't designed to appeal to the people that approve and buy trucks, logistics managers. They aren't a good fit for enough owner/operators who need range, a place to sleep and a traditional seating position. Now, just about every major brand has electric HGV's. Even Nikola has been shipping ET's.

As for autonomous taxis, I would put money on Geely before Tesla and a version of the London Black Cab. The design of the LBC is much better for a taxi. Aerodynamics aren't needed in a city, but easy access and room for prams, wheel chairs, bikes and scooters is mandatory. I still want a driver if I'm traveling. They know where to go, where not to go and can have a lot of local knowledge that's worth every penny of the fare sometimes. I'm still waiting to hear what the plans are for breakdowns. An autonomous taxi with no controls that freaks out and curls up into a ball can't be moved manually. Will cities need to purchase cranes to remove them? Will they just install really powerful winches on flat-bed tow trucks so they can be dragged up the ramp?

AI? Pffttt. Robots? for what? Your plastic pal that's fun to be around? I could buy a bunch of human friends for less $/£.

[Ken Y-N]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Toyota do a lovely clone of the London taxi, but it's ICE (or maybe hybrid). Haven't a clue about automonous plans, but there will still be a need for some drivers for helping old folk in, stowing luggage, etc.

[LybsterRoy]

Re: Doesn't make sense

If they go FSD and EV then they could fill the drivers space with batteries so it could do a full days work before going home to recharge.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Doesn't make sense

that just makes the eventually dumpster fire last longer

[Gordon 10]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Even as musk denier that's misleading.

The last mainstream model was the Model 3 mid-life refresh - Highland. It's absolutely normal for all manufacturers to do this - albeit Telsa had a much longer time to get to the refresh than most other manufacturers 3-4 year cycle.

The model Y mid-life refresh "Juniper" is going into production now for release this year.

Tesla has 2 big challenges - getting a model 2 into production and replacing model 3 and Y late in this decade.

S and X models are essentially on life support and can/will be ignored.

Cybertruck is a silly ego play.

Semi - I'll pass on making a comment - don't understand the US truck market.

[Irongut]

Re: Doesn't make sense

> The last mainstream model was the Model 3 mid-life refresh

By definition a "refresh" is a model that already exists and not a new nodel.

[Gordon 10]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Wrong. Its a matter of nuance, when does a refresh become a new model - there is no hard and fast rule. Highland has multiple panel & styling updates which is unusual for a mid-life refresh and Tesla does a lot more rolling updates than most other manufacturers.

Waiting until a Model 3.1 or Gen 2 to appear to define a new model is petty pedantry - my point stands.

[Ian Mason]

Re: Doesn't make sense

I would dispute that panel and styling changes are unusual for a mid-life refresh. Instead I would say that panel and styling changes are the principal changes wrought in most auto maker's mid-life model refreshes.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Doesn't make sense

"Semi - I'll pass on making a comment - don't understand the US truck market."

Electric Trucker on YouTube is driving electric semi-trucks in Germany and his content is excellent. Germany is pushing to get charging in place for large trucks. Tobias shows how the real issue has been the tight restrictions there are for on-duty time for drivers, not the need to charge since he must take logged breaks anyway so charging at the same time is getting to be less of an issue over time.

It's been some time since I've held a Commercial Driving License (CDL) in the US. With electronic logs, it's getting harder to fudge drive/rest times. It's also a really big country so long haul is really really long in some cases. Normally trucks making those trips will have two people driving since delivery time is always an issue. That leaves less time to recharge and there aren't the big truck charging stations in the US. Even 500 miles is pushing time limits for a single driver per day unless that's mostly on uncrowded interstate highways where averaging 60mph isn't hard to do. (60mph x 8 hours being 480 miles).

I believe that Tesla needs another form. A Model 2 that's a slightly smaller and stripped down Model 3 will just rob 3/Y sales. The 3 and Y are mostly just 2 sizes of the same car. The Y has a refresh introduced in China but I'm not hearing about anything more than cosmetics. Did I miss something? Better efficiency and a battery so much improved that the warranty runs an additional 30,000 miles would be a good start.

[Gordon 10]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Yes but US-centric retail investors are among the dumbest investors in the world. First to buy into a Tulip bubble and most at risk from it.

Plus since Tesla doesnt pay dividends - when the stock valuation crashes their 401k's are all f*cked.

They are the last people who should be blindly supporting Musk - not as the US election results show - that will stop them doing so.

Stupid is as stupid does.

[JoeCool]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Is it remotely possible that Tesla is monstrously over priced as a result of the juice linked to Musk's cult following and his constant pump+dump evangelism ?

[Ian Mason]

Re: Doesn't make sense

In a word, yes. Track what institutional investors are doing with Tesla shares - quietly dumping them to minimise their exposure to risk.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Doesn't make sense

"Why would the board not want him to leave?"

They can't be seen wanting him to leave as the all owe Elon for their positions. If they waver in their support and Elon isn't ousted, the next time they show up, their employee ID card won't unlock the doors and their parking space will have poop emoji stenciled over their name.

[silent_count]

Re: Doesn't make sense

@VicMorimer

Can you explain how increasing the value of Tesla by an order of magnitude since becoming CEO (source) is "bringing the company down"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Doesn't make sense

Go on then mate, invest some of your own money in Tesla at $395 a share.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Doesn't make sense

"Can you explain how increasing the value of Tesla by an order of magnitude since becoming CEO (source) is "bringing the company down"?"

Don't confuse "value" with "market cap". If Tesla shut its doors at the end of the week, what would be the money it could bring in for its assets? After that, some estimation can be made for non-tangibles such as the name, IP, etc. There will be a big difference between an ongoing concern and one in administration (or should be). It was found out at trial that Solar City had never made a profit and was $3bn in debt. The stock was still trading and had market cap even though it was massively underwater. Same thing happened with Enron. Those companies had no "value", but plenty of market cap, until they didn't.

[Howard Sway]

What could be the motivation for continuing to fight the case?

Well, the UK's annual defence budget is a mere £53 billion, so given his recent animosity towards the country's politicians, I'd recommend checking the purchase records of any extinct volcanoes that have seen suspiciously large shipping activity recently, or perhaps getting Jodrell Bank to check for any new large geostationary space stations overlooking us.

[that one in the corner]

Re: What could be the motivation for continuing to fight the case?

> new large geostationary space stations overlooking us.

When we learn how much reaction mass the StarLunk satellites really have, as they manoeuvre together and interlock their panels. The red Tesla reappears, having ejected the Starman to change its orbit; the steering wheel engages with the antenna controls and we learn just what a massively parallel phased array can do to a metal structure on Earth...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because...

$400Billion is simply not enough to live on.

Sack Elongated Muskrat now. He's not pulling his weight at Tesla with him living at Mar-a-lardon.

[Anonymous Coward]

musk doesn't deserve to exist

Though I sort of resent having to get out of bed so I'm not gonna do owt

[Dinanziame]

Re: musk doesn't deserve to exist

It's interesting to note that, since so much of Tesla's value is tied to the hallucina^W visionary ideas of Elon Musk, his sudden untimely death would literally make billions for people shorting the stock.

Hiring a random Luigi would comparatively cost a negligible amount.

[John Smith 19]

"Hiring a random Luigi would comparatively cost a negligible amount."

My $deity that's almost as callous and lacking in empathy as, well, Leon.

Think of all his poor children who won't know their fathers (very special) form of love to them ever again.

I'm feeling quite tearful just thinking about it.*

*Mind you isn't the villain's motto "Love of evil is the root of all money" ?

[MachDiamond]

Re: Hire a Luigi?

"To clean a Leon I'd hire a Léon!"

Personally, I'd get an Igor.

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

Not to worry. Now that he's buddies with Mein Fuhrer Drumpf, his blatant theft is sure to be approved by the courts.

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

"Judge Kathaleen McCormick failed to reverse her original decision..."

Is that some legalese? "Failed" implies, well, failure. She declined to reverse it, surely?

[DS999]

If the board feels he deserves that pay

Why not vote it to him now in 2025? They moved the HQ right, so that Delware court would have no jurisdiction about a pay package today versus that old one from years ago?

Probably because the stock he would be getting is worth several times that much now, and maybe shareholders would be upset about awarding him $150 billion or whatever it would be now.

[Flocke Kroes]

Re: HQ moved to Texas

Musk's lawyers already tried to switch venues and new litigation would be in Texas. The existing litigation continues in Delware unless an appeal is accepted by SCOTUSDT.

[Mikel]

A deal is a deal.

Pay up.

[doublelayer]

Re: A deal is a deal.

I made a deal with my friend over here that I get your money. Pay up. Or read up on what this case is about.

[Winkypop]

The dog and pony show

Musk and Trump

It’s going to be a very long 4* years.

* Or longer if the orange messiah changes the law.

[Flocke Kroes]

Re: Equine canine extravaganza

He is only president for life and could die of old age in under four years.

[Groo The Wanderer - A Canuck]

Re: Equine canine extravaganza

Here's hoping...

[veti]

Re: The dog and pony show

Ha. Do you really think two egos of the size of Trump and Musk can coexist peacefully, let alone actively co-operate, for four whole years?

I'd give odds against Musk lasting til midterms.

[John Smith 19]

"I'd give odds against Musk lasting til midterms."

What is that. 500-600 days?

The FOCF all-junk-all-day diet or President Musk's frequent "Interventions" in his assistants "concepts"*

Tough call.

People have been hoping for a massive heart attack/stroke/diabetic coma for years but he keeps noshing that stuff down. But, y'know tomorrow could be the day that lifetime of eating, drinking and (allegedly) snorting s**t finally catches up with him but he's like a cockroach. And of course that still leaves JD Shady in the picture. He's read "The 48 Laws of Power" and at 40 offers decades more grief to the US people. Of course he could come out and marry Peter Theil and become a nicer person. They'd make a cute threesome. Him, Peter and Peters money.

*As in "concepts of a plan" for replacing the ACA.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: The dog and pony show

Or longer if the orange messiah changes the law.

Which would involve either a change in the constitution (hint - ain't happening) or the US Supreme Court to finally abrogate *any* responsibility to follow the constitution (more likely although I think even Trump's puppets there might pause at overthrowing it since that would pretty much lead to Civil War Mk.2 and the demise of the US..)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The dog and pony show

I think you mean, "US Supreme Court to finally do what they already are doing"

"

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The dog and pony show

The guy incited an actual insurrection.

I think he has plans for much bigger things.

[John Smith 19]

"Which would involve "

POTUS stating "The country is a mess. Only I can fix it and it's going to take more than 4 years to do so. I am therefore suspending elections, Congress and Senate until that time"*

That's what complete Presidential immunity for official acts looks like.

He doesn't even need an "Act of Enablement" to do it.

Leonard Leo and his patient decades of packing courts with members of the Feral Society have paid off. Non billionaire view the Roberts SCOTUS as one of the weakest lead and most corrupt in the Court's history. They are right.

*Sane washed to strip out all his usual babbling, rambling incoherent BS.

[Anonymous Coward]

How rich is Musk actually

Funnily enough, not very. Nearly all his business ventures are built on loans, which are then used to be collateral for new loans for the expansion, setting up or buying new businesses, repeat, repeat. That $56bn is very necessary to keep the merry-go-round spinning. Once you ask yourself why he's playing the Fool to Donnie's King, then the light flickers that he might be trying to distract attention from his problems in the hope Trump will save him. Tesla is building 2 major factories in Shanghai, one for trucks, the other for batteries, alongside the others already running - a trade war between China and the US would be disastrous for Musk, personally.

[John Riddoch]

What doesn't make sense here is that $56B is more than 3 years of gross profits at Tesla. Paying him that basically says he's generated the entire profits for those 3 years. Market cap is $1.27T, that payout is about 4.5% of the total value of the company.

Ridiculous.

[Flocke Kroes]

Re: nonsense

Tesla profits or loses have no bearing on the issue. The deal is not for $56B in cash but for Musk to have the option to buy 304 million freshly issued shares at $23.34 that he cannot sell until a later date. Imagine you have a large number of Tesla shares. Would you prefer to sell them before or after the bubble bursts? Would you prefer to commit securities fraud yourself to cash out or have Musk do it now in return for Tesla share value dilution after you have sold your stake? Do you want Musk invested in hyping Tesla shares future value or have him shit posting about Tesla on Twitter now?

[Jellied Eel]

Re: nonsense

Tesla profits or loses have no bearing on the issue. The deal is not for $56B in cash but for Musk to have the option to buy 304 million freshly issued shares at $23.34 that he cannot sell until a later date.

I think the award was based on some P&L. But I never understood why (other than the board being stacked with friends & family) the option price was set so low. The deal seemed to incentivise hyping the share price far more than boosting the fundamentals.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: nonsense

oh god I need to go wash, I agreed with you!

[MachDiamond]

Re: nonsense

"I think the award was based on some P&L."

Nope, it's based on rather inconsequential milestones and stock price. If it were based on profits, CapEx growth, segment market share and a combination of other things that have long term value to the company/shareholders, perhaps a very generous bonus would be earned. Giving Elon's stock holdings already, he could sell some of those shares that he hasn't already pledged as security for loans/lines of credit and replace the voting power with the shares he'd be restricted from selling by exercising new options. He's pulled back from demanding 25% voting control of Tesla outside of his stock ownership that down to around half of that or he'll take AI and Robotics from Tesla to a private company he controls. That should have had him out on his ass when he threatened that. So should all of his extra-curricular activities. How can a company with a market cap of over $1tn get by with a part-time (if that) CEO and still maintain its position in the market?

[MachDiamond]

"What doesn't make sense here is that $56B is more than 3 years of gross profits at Tesla."

More properly it would be "gross revenue" and way beyond "net profits". I'm having a hard time reconciling Tesla's "cash" being more money than all of their profits. It would make sense if they aren't paying their suppliers yet still writing the invoices in the expense column. There's cash from Roadster 2.0 deposits that are liabilities, but that's under $1bn.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, not the plaintiff lawyers

I'm pretty sure it's got nothing to do with the plaintiff attorney's request to pay them billions of dollars in Tesla stocks as attorney fees. Or the judge's decision to cut their appetite down to _just_ $345 million.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: No, not the plaintiff lawyers

I don't get that one either. $345m in fees seems just a tad excessive, much like the pay deal in general.

[MachDiamond]

Re: No, not the plaintiff lawyers

"$345m in fees seems just a tad excessive"

The law serves nobody as well as the lawyers.

I'd love to see the summing up of the bill. I expect that Tesla's lawyers were throwing everything at the wall through motions that all had to be addressed. That can be tedious, time consuming and tough to counter. Judges don't even blink when they see a partner's time being billed at thousands of dollars per hour. It's massively insane, but every week "the norm" rises more. I had an issue and was looking to consult with an attorney and to just talk was going to be $450/hr. The matter hasn't gone away, but it's not looming so I could spend far less by taking some law courses and learning the material for myself. I need to get a new IP attorney as well and they think too much of themselves. One offered to submit my Copyright filings for me at $325 a go. Takes me about 20 minutes so that's $1,275/hr to fill out some simple paperwork that I hadn't even inquired about. I bet she'd love to get me to pay her for that.

[Philo T Farnsworth]

The 56 Billion Dollar Man. . .

For all that money, you'd think they'd at least give him super powers. . .

"Steve Austin, astronaut. A man barely alive." Richard Anderson, in character as Oscar Goldman, then intones off-camera, "Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to make the world's first bionic man. Steve Austin will be that man. Better than he was before. Better . . . stronger . . . faster¹."

________________

¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Six_Million_Dollar_Man#Opening_sequence

[John Smith 19]

"Steve Austin, astronaut. A man barely alive."

Well if we're playing a quick round of "Real life tropes"

Minion 1 What happened?

Minion 2 He was skinning up a fat one with his cybertruck on autopilot when it mistook a brick wall for open road. It's fine but he's a mess.

Third man Let me through here. I'm a doctor.

Minion 1 Who are you?

Third man I'm the head of Neurlink research and this man is my patient. He must be taken to our facility immediately to prepare for surgery as part of our RoboElon programme. Within a week we'll have an avatar of himself up and round. He'll have better hair, less blubber and a light tan while retaining all his essential qualities my patient is known for.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just one greedy b*stard thieving from another group of greedy b*stards.

[Anonymous Coward]

May 10,000 fleas make a home in his jockstrap.

[NanoMeter]

I don't know...

Greed, perhaps?

[Mitoo Bobsworth]

The simple answer is - because he can

And America is the ideal place for him get away with it.