Google thinks the grid can't support AI, so it's spending on solar for future datacenters

Google believes the US electricity grid can't deliver the energy needed to power datacenters that deliver AI services, so has formed an alliance to build industrial parks powered by clean energy, at which it will build "gigawatts of datacenter capacity" across the nation. The search megalith announced its plan on Wednesday. …

[Charlie Clark]

Nice in theory but the risk of crowding out remains

The model of paying upfront for the buildout of new capacity is a good idea because it allows cash-rich companies to do something with their cash other than keep it in the bank, buy back shares, pay dividends or get involved in even more risky startups. And any kind of power plant is capital intensive. The idea of dedicated power plants is also good, because it can reduce risk from the grid by not adding to the potential total peak load.

However, the effects can be the same as everyone and their dog seeks to add renewable capacity and compete for scarce resources, usually the technicians required to build and manage the facility, but could also include sites. Some of the recent deals have seen utilities sign deals to guarantee power for certain customers, potentially increasing the risk of blackouts for others. Forcing data centre operators to have their own power supply can help here but not if it means that the utilities are unable to raise the finance for their own plans, or keep the engineers to do the work. So, some kind of agreement with local regulator is essential. But when I look back at the history of US power regulators I'm not very hopeful that regulatory capture won't be one of the first victims.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Nice in theory but the risk of crowding out remains

"The model of paying upfront for the buildout of new capacity is a good idea because it allows cash-rich companies to do something with their cash other than keep it in the bank, buy back shares, pay dividends or get involved in even more risky startups."

In Utopia, sure. In Neurotica, not so much. If the returns are better buying back stock, they'll do that. You have to remember that large corporations are thinking for the next quarter, not making plans for dates a decade down the road.

[Mentat74]

" the US is poised to enjoy strong economic growth thanks to AI"...

As more and more people fall victim to the scam you call 'A.I.' you mean...

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: " the US is poised to enjoy strong economic growth thanks to AI"...

You think the USA is doing better relying on genuine human intelligence?

[JimmyPage]

Nice idea for the daytime

presumably they will shut the data centres at night ?

[John Robson]

Re: Nice idea for the daytime

Absolutely, because no-one has ever thought about that issue at any point in the past.

I mean, it's so obvious now you say it. There can't possibly be any options that would allow them to continue operations in the entirely unpredictable event of a so called "night".

[codejunky]

Re: Nice idea for the daytime

@John Robson

"There can't possibly be any options that would allow them to continue operations in the entirely unpredictable event of a so called "night"."

I think it is the omission of these options which makes the article that little bit extra interesting. Almost like they are suggesting batteries for the hours of darkness (which is not going to be cheap nor realistic I expect).

[very angry man]

Re: Nice idea for the daytime

There's a few companies making big batteries, one Aussie company working in Germany (no support from government here mate) has 30Mw and 60Mw, stackable batteries coming on line 2025,

[codejunky]

Re: Nice idea for the daytime

@very angry man

"There's a few companies making big batteries, one Aussie company working in Germany (no support from government here mate) has 30Mw and 60Mw, stackable batteries coming on line 2025,"

It is good to see technology improving but I would be very surprised if Google relies on batteries for when the sun doesnt shine. They are still very expensive and would require a lot of capacity to last the night and dull days.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Nice idea for the daytime

"Almost like they are suggesting batteries for the hours of darkness (which is not going to be cheap nor realistic I expect)."

If you limit the definition of battery to only chemical batteries, I agree. Especially a problem with lithium batteries since using up production of those makes better uses of them too expensive. How does a car company or train system compete with government supported utility companies wanting to greenwash their business?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Nice idea for the daytime

Once again the con trick of "renewables". Which mysteriously always require more than just the energy. In this case ... batteries.

Say what you will about nuclear. Once you turn it on, you get power 24/7. Which is handy for all those times you get zero power from your renewables.

Every single plan I have seen for "going green" has always had to smuggle in something to cover the baseload.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Nice idea for the daytime

In theory you don't need the data center to run 24*7. There are a lot of tasks like trawling web or training models where only total hours matter. The reason these tasks run 24*7 is that you paid for a lot of GPU and you want to get the work done before your competition.

Once it's a commodity then doing it 50% of time for 10% of the power bill might look attractive

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: Nice idea for the daytime

It's AI, 0% of the time for 0% of the power bill would be better.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Nice idea for the daytime

"It's AI, 0% of the time for 0% of the power bill would be better."

It's a tool. An adjustable spanner is a tool that can drive a nail, but it's not good for that and that's what's going on with AI. In a setting filled with nails, it's a spanner.

[Doctor Syntax]

Computing used to be measured in the number of computations per second, the storage available or the number of bits in and out of a data centre. In other words, its output. Now it seems to be measured in the power consumed, its inputs. Is this because the output is so pointless it's not worth measuring?

[John Robson]

I like the theory - but I think it's simpler: power is now the limiting factor, which hasn't always been true.

You still blatantly get an upvote for pointing out that there is no useful output for a lot of this crap.

[abend0c4]

power is now the limiting factor

It would be the limiting factor if the predicted demand actually exists and the "productivity gains" justify the real world operating costs.

I still think reality could turn out to be the limiting factor because even in the unlikely event this stuff turns out to be useful to people, no-one seems really to have thought about the prices that will be needed to ensure a return on the almost unbounded investment.

[Wang Cores]

Again, this wouldn't be out of place in the Soviet Union. Five year plan behind schedule? The announcer will discuss the great efforts and manhours put into executing the Great Comrade's plan.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

No, the USSR had plans announced years in advance from on high with no contact with the actual engineering effort.

Here we have engineering report precisely what the VCs expect to hear this quarter.

[Wang Cores]

Is that necessarily that much different? The experts and line troops are overridden for "optimistic" goals set by the gladhanders.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Telling your distant bosses what they want to hear about unachievable goals, so you get further funding and don't get fired is completely different under communism and capitalism

One involves PowerPoint

[MachDiamond]

"The experts and line troops are overridden for "optimistic" goals set by the gladhanders."

Yes, but for the company to be successful (very high executive salaries), those wildly optimistic goals must be met. When this is encountered in the wild, back away slowly and get out of the area.

[MachDiamond]

"Now it seems to be measured in the power consumed"

Elon was never very good with math and finds it easier to think in terms of kW.

[Primus Secundus Tertius]

Large areas

Raw sunlight is rated at about 1.4KW per square metre. So electricity output from a solar cell will be about 100W per square metre. A gigawatt will require 10,000,000 square metres; say 3,000 by 3,000. More than that when you allow units to be spaced out so maintenance, e.g. dusting, can be done.

So a lot of cabling required within the power station, presumably located in one of the US deserts; and a lot of cable back to a US city.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Large areas

But much less than the area of freeway exits and parking that you will be required to install for this size of facility, regardless of the fact that nobody works on site

[MachDiamond]

Re: Large areas

"parking that you will be required to install for this size of facility, regardless of the fact that nobody works on site"

There won't be the need for that parking as long as the space remains a data center, but if it changes hands after the tax credits expire, the next tenant may need parking for their business. If it's not there, the building becomes an attractive nuisance for the city as nobody will buy/rent it and vandals will spray paint as much as possible and set fire to everything flammable. It then becomes a homeless encampment, rave site, etc.

Tesla has needed to rent lots of parking lots from time to time when they see big dips in demand. A data center will have pretty good security so leasing the car park to Tesla brings in easy profits.

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

Re: Large areas

A solar panel producing 100 W/m² is only 7% conversion efficiency. Where did you get that number?

[DJO]

Re: Large areas

Probably made it up and conveniently forgot that photovoltaics can be fitted to dead space like roofs or can be raised up and the space under them used for parking or agriculture or all sorts of things where direct sunlight is not wanted.

In arid areas putting your solar panels 2 or 3 meters off the ground provides a nice microclimate which is good for growing stuff that would otherwise suffer from the direct sunlight.

[John Robson]

Re: Large areas

Probably accounting for nights as well... I think my panels average a shade under 25W/m^2 over the course of year (> 52 degrees north) - so if anything it might be optimistic.

Doesn't sound like much, but it adds up over a year to be hundreds of kWh/m^2, and a couple of MWh for my installation. Which is great for a domestic situation...

[MachDiamond]

Re: Large areas

"Raw sunlight is rated at about 1.4KW per square metre.

It's less than 1kW/sqm and affected by the season, clouds, particulates in the air, etc. The 1kW/sqm figure is used as a handy reference for calculation but isn't a universal. Solar panels are around 22% efficient. Right now winter solstice is a week away and my solar heating system is at it's least productive. If there were even as much as 1kw/sqm of insolation, the house would be much warmer.

[Bill Gray]

Re: Large areas

It's 1360.8 +/- 0.5 W/m^2, the "solar constant"... if you're in space. Obviously, you lose a bit as the sunlight comes through the atmosphere, even on a cloudless day. Maybe that's where your "less than 1000 W/m^2" comes in? I could believe that ~25% drop without much trouble.

[Throatwarbler Mangrove]

COMMUNISM!

How dare Google give into pressure from the woke Green Communist manifesto and use unsustainable green power! They should only run datacenters on the true-blue 'Murican fossil fuels with natural gas, oil, and coal bought from Russia to support our allies working for our best interests around the globe!

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: COMMUNISM!

The Democratic (Republican) Union of Mineworkers will demand nothing less !

[Jellied Eel]

Re: COMMUNISM!

They should only run datacenters on the true-blue 'Murican fossil fuels with natural gas, oil, and coal..

A lot of datacentres already do, and the coal states are popular locations. But xkcd summarises the issue-

https://xkcd.com/1162/

If you want lots of energy, eat uranium. 1J=1W/s, solar is roughly 1kW/m^2 maximum potential energy based on insolation at surface, but maybe 20% efficent, so 200J/m^2 vs coal's 24MJ/kg. Uranium is kinda off the charts, at 76,000GJ/Kg, which is the point xkcd makes.

Then there's the small matter of night time, or just variable insolation during the day with clouds affecting solar output. So the usual problem with 'renewables' claiming stuff like having '2.2GW' of installed capacity, which is usually based on nameplate or theoretical capacity rather than actual deliverable energy. Which then means having to add cost installing massive battery arrays to act as large capacitors and smooth out the power. SMR's like Royals Royce can deliver 300MW 24x7x365 far more reliably and in a far smaller footprint that solar (or wind) could ever manage.

Oh, and location is also rather important, ie-

https://stopthesethings.com/2024/10/21/hurricane-havoc-twisters-wipeout-thousands-of-solar-panels-across-us/

The footage, shared by North Carolina-based power and gas company Duke Energy, showed the damage left behind in a field of Florida solar panels. In the video, taken Oct. 10 at the Lake Placid Solar Power Plant in Sylvan Shores, a clear path of destruction can be seen snaking through the middle of the field where the twister passed over.

[John Robson]

Re: COMMUNISM!

"SMR's like Royals Royce can deliver 300MW 24x7x365 far more reliably and in a far smaller footprint that solar (or wind) could ever manage."

I just wish we could actually build them, and micro units as well...

[Jellied Eel]

Re: COMMUNISM!

I just wish we could actually build them, and micro units as well...

We can. Rolls Royce has been building SMRs to power our nuclear submarines for decades. The problem is that we still have incompetent sh*theads like Ed Millibrain in charge of energy policy, and he is probably one of the most dishonest men in politics-

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2024/12/13/milibands-300-energy-saving-is-smoke-mirrors/#more-82928

“Don’t take my word for it. The national energy system operator said that not only was clean power achievable, but it will lead to lower costs of electricity and indeed it can leads to lower bills.”

But Robinson hit back: “I’m puzzled by this, Mr Miliband. You’re quoting this independent national energy system operator. Let me quote them: ‘Overall costs to consumers would not increase from the shift to a clean power system’.

And we know this because ever since Millibrain's 'Climate Change Act' and regulatory capture by the 'renewables' lobby, our energy costs have rocketed to the most expensive in Europe, if not the world. If he'd spend a fraction of what he's expecting us to spend to dump CO2 in a hole in the ground, RR would be a lot closer to getting civil SMRs into production, and we could probably make money exporting them.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: COMMUNISM!

Damn, if only Corbyn hadn't been in charge for the last dozen years we would have a glorious future of < rising strains of Elgar >

[Jellied Eel]

Re: COMMUNISM!

...we would have a glorious future of < rising strains of Elgar >

Instead, we have the rising strains of energy costs. The subsidies are around £500 per household per annum. The 'renewables' scumbags tell us their tech is so cheap, yet demand ever more subsidies and go price cap in hand to morons like Millibrain, who throw them even more of our money. Then we get news like this-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq5lw84w1yeo

The UK economy shrank for the second month in a row in October as concerns about the Budget continued to weigh on confidence.

...Sir Keir has said he wants the UK to secure the highest sustained economic growth of the G7 group of rich nations.

Last week, he set out additional "milestones" to allow people to measure the government's progress. On the economy, he has pledged to increase real household disposable income per person.

He could do that by removing subsidies, cutting energy costs and wouldn't need an 'AI' to explain this to him. But then free gear Kier isn't exactly short of disposable income.

[MachDiamond]

Re: COMMUNISM!

"We can. Rolls Royce has been building SMRs to power our nuclear submarines for decades."

There's a huge difference when it comes to military applications. The standards are lower and the anti's are just told to piss off when they protest (or arrested/hosed down/pepper sprayed). For a fixed location commercial nuclear power plant, those in opposition to humans not having to return to an arboreal lifestyle are going to wave placards and shout pithy sayings through bullhorns. There almost isn't the room for all of the Defenders to park.

[MachDiamond]

Re: COMMUNISM!

"I just wish we could actually build them, and micro units as well..."

And while there may be enough lawyers in the world to deal with all of the lawsuits, wouldn't it be better to starve the ones we have already rather than encouraging them to breed?

[MachDiamond]

Re: COMMUNISM!

"They should only run datacenters on the true-blue 'Murican fossil fuels with natural gas, oil, and coal bought from Russia"

Your material needs work if you hope to get an HBO special.

The US is huge and power sources vary. In the Pacific Northwest, it's nearly all hydro. In Tennessee, it's coal.... US coal and there's a lot of that. Only especially out of the way places use oil (diesel) and a couple of refineries use waste sludge to generate power for the refinery.

[Rui Mae]

Ballpark power comsumption figure anyone?

Does anyone happen to know a ballpark power comsumption figure for a 'normal' sized datacenter running a run-of-the-mill AI system?

I keep asking Micro$oft's Copilot, but it won't tell me.

I asked it if it had guardrails around the answer, and it said 'yes' (in a roundabout way).

[IGotOut]

Re: Ballpark power comsumption figure anyone?

Too much?

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Ballpark power comsumption figure anyone?

A lot. Typically twice what a regular DC would use.

So an AWS/Facebook uses <10kw/rack while AI pulls 25kw. It means a lot of older data centers have to run half empty because they don't have the power/cooling

[Rui Mae]

Re: Ballpark power comsumption figure anyone?

Thanks for that!

So around 25kW per rack.

All I need to know now is how many 'racks' there are in a typical AI DC

I did manage to find one academic source which mentioned - as an aside - firgures around 7MW/hr for an AI DC - which, to me, seems surprisingly low.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised to find out how hard it is to, umm, find out.

Given the embarrassment it might cause.

Anyone in the industry care to let this MW cat outta the bag?

Go on, I dare you.

[tip pc]

Re: Ballpark power comsumption figure anyone?

chat GPT suggests ~ 50 MWh

Over a year:

50×24×365=438,000 MWh or 438 GWh.

1. Annual Energy Consumption

The AI data center consumes 438 GWh/year (50 MW × 24 hours/day × 365 days).

2. Energy Available from Sunlight

The amount of sunlight (solar irradiance) falling on one square meter varies by location, but a global average is 1,000 W/m² under peak conditions. Over a year:

Average Solar Irradiance: ~5 kWh/m²/day (typical for sunny regions).

Annual Solar Energy per m²: 5 kWh/m²/day × 365 days = 1,825 kWh/m²/year

3. Solar Panel Efficiency

Modern solar panels have efficiencies between 18% and 22%. Assuming 20% efficiency:

Energy Captured per m² per Year:

1,825kWh/m²/year×0.20=365kWh/m²/year.

4. Total Area Required for Solar Panels

To meet the annual energy demand:

Total Area=

365kWh/m²/year

438,000,000kWh

​

≈1,200,000m².

This translates to 1,200 hectares (12 km² or ~3,000 acres).

5. Battery Storage

Daily Energy Requirement:

Nighttime energy (12 hours of no sunlight):

600MWh×3=1,800MWh.

Battery Volume and Weight:

Energy density of lithium-ion batteries: ~250 Wh/L and ~6 Wh/kg.

Battery volume:

1,800,000kWh÷0.25kWh/L=7,200,000L=7,200m³.

Battery weight:

1,800,000kWh÷0.006kWh/kg=300,000,000kg or 300,000 tons.

Battery Space:

Assuming batteries are packed at ~1,000 kg/m³, the storage space would be

300,000m³, which is roughly 15,000 m² (considering 20 m height).

6. Summary

Solar Panel Area: ~1,200,000 m² (1,200 hectares or ~3,000 acres).

Battery Space: ~15,000 m² (1.5 hectares or ~3.7 acres).

Total Space Needed: ~1,215 hectares (12.15 km² or ~3,003 acres).

This estimate assumes efficient land use for solar panels and battery storage. Adjustments would depend on panel orientation, spacing, and local solar irradiance.

[Oneman2Many]

Re: Ballpark power comsumption figure anyone?

" 2.2GW of operating solar PV and accompanying battery storage in operation or construction."

Sorry there isn't any measure of typical rack count. It can be anything from a few rack for on-prem branch location, tens of racks for head offices. hundreds for co-lo or thousands for hyperscalers.

[Ian Johnston]

Fan-friggin'-tastic. Just when we need to reduce our overall power consumption drastically, these bozos want to use vast amounts of it to further inflate a completely pointless bubble of hype. I suppose the upside is that when the AI bubble burst the renewable capacity can be redirected to useful stuff.

[Oneman2Many]

Use AI on a daily basis so certainly not hype, Of course people's definition of AI. Depending on the scale of deployment you may find on-prem hosting a better solution rather than a hyperscaler but you mileage may vary.

[anthonyhegedus]

Just when we had stopped discussing the immense energy consumption of cryptocurrency, we discover a new source of energy-intensive activities. At least artificial intelligence has some practical applications. Integrating it into systems in small but beneficial ways can indeed be helpful. For instance, summarising voicemails saves time, while writing simple scripts also saves time. There are numerous other simple ways in which people’s workloads are eased by utilising AI. However, it is important to acknowledge that a significant portion of this hype is unfounded. There appear to be many more products predicated on AI that don't really have any added value, than actually beneficial AI products.

The primary concern lies in the large-scale energy consumption of AI. Unlike cryptocurrency, which major tech companies do not control, there appear to be virtually unlimited financial resources available for constructing data centres and electricity production facilities.

Nevertheless, unlike the equally energy-intensive cryptocurrency, AI has the potential to genuinely benefit people.

[MachDiamond]

"summarising voicemails saves time"

Except those vocal inflections that denote things like sarcasm can be missed which might change the entire meaning of the message.

If you get so many messages that they have to be summarized, you are doing something wrong.

[anthonyhegedus]

No, I’m talking about businesses. Some businesses rely on them. For example, we look after a wholesale butcher, who receives orders by voicemail after the restaurants close. They get 10-20 a night and the messages are matter of fact and easily transcribed.

[MachDiamond]

"For example, we look after a wholesale butcher, who receives orders by voicemail after the restaurants close. They get 10-20 a night and the messages are matter of fact and easily transcribed."

I'd expect it would be so much easier to have an online form and customers would just tick boxes and a price gets presented to the buyer so if they've made a mistake and ordered kilos instead of grams, it would be obvious.

[Reginald O.]

Not juicy!

There's not enough juice to run EV's either. We do have enough natural gas to run electric generators, however. So, let's get busy.

[spold]

In the bigger brighter picture....

This is all part of Google Sun (tm) for consumers - several sunny days will be available on a trial basis. After that you will need to accept Google's Ts & Cs and Privacy Policy (28 pages - which includes sharing all your information as to what you may be doing in the Google Sun (tm) as well tracking where you are at all times (essential information for the delivery of the Google Sun (tm) service)), and confirm you have read and understood these (in the dark of course). After this, additional sunlight will be available on a "pay per ray" basis.

[Daedalus]

Get that sky scorcher ready

When AI threatens our existence, running on solar power, it'll be Matrix time. Be ready to become a power cell.

[codejunky]

Re: Get that sky scorcher ready

@Daedalus

"When AI threatens our existence, running on solar power, it'll be Matrix time. Be ready to become a power cell."

It wont need to use us as batteries, it could use wind power

/sarc

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Get that sky scorcher ready

But clearly, some won't meet the minimum requirement for neural electrical activity.

[bernmeister]

A fair weather friend.

A bit short sighted. What happens when the sunlight is lost and wind speed drops? Germany already has this problem. Its called ‘Dunkelflaute’ . Google it and worry.