back to article UK council still hadn't fully costed troubled Oracle project 2 years in

A UK council had no fully costed and resourced plan in place to deliver a critical Oracle ERP project two years after beginning an SAP-replacement program, one which has seen years of delay with costs set to climb to 15 times the initial budget. According to an independent audit, West Sussex County Council also failed to …

  1. Roland6 Silver badge

    “ no fully costed and resourced plan in place to enable delivery of the program to completion.”

    That’s the problem with Agile, you cost a number of cycles not complete delivery against a signed off requirements document….

    1. Steve K

      Re: “ no fully costed and resourced plan in place to enable delivery of the program to completion.”

      I don't think you'd ever deliver Oracle ERP using Agile....

      1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge
        Joke

        Beware of hidden reefs when navigating waters prepared by yachtsman

        I believe the correct methodology for costing Oracle is know as "sunk costs".

        1. Tim99 Silver badge
          Coat

          Re: Beware of hidden reefs when navigating waters prepared by yachtsman

          You may have missed the word "fallacy"?

          1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

            Re: Beware of hidden reefs when navigating waters prepared by yachtsman

            If they knew the word "fallacy" they would have abandoned it.

            Now it is a case of "we have invested so much, we need to keep going".

        2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Beware of hidden reefs when navigating waters prepared by yachtsman

          >I believe the correct methodology for costing Oracle is know as "sunk costs".

          I believe the correct methodology for costing Oracle is know as "robbery"

          1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge
            Coat

            Re: Beware of hidden reefs when navigating waters prepared by yachtsman

            Their software is written in Pyra-C...

          2. seven of five Silver badge

            Re: Beware of hidden reefs when navigating waters prepared by yachtsman

            Nope. To take *that* much money, you have to be a bank or a lawyer

            (paraphrasing pTerry, can't remember the book, though)

      2. devin3782
        Joke

        Re: “ no fully costed and resourced plan in place to enable delivery of the program to completion.”

        I'd have written it thus "I don't think you'd ever deliver Oracle ERP"

    2. trevorde Silver badge

      Re: “ no fully costed and resourced plan in place to enable delivery of the program to completion.”

      Agile works well where your requirements are ill defined or changing. It allows you to deal with emerging requirements and respond quickly. The down side is that the cost and completion date are unknown, just like the requirements.

      Where all the requirements are known in advance ie a signed off spec, then a waterfall approach will deliver the project on time and on budget. However, if there are new or changed requirements, then it all goes pear shaped.

      Having worked with both methodologies, it is very rare that *all* requirements are known in advance, even for a 'legacy' system, such as we have here. Given that it's been in there for 20+ years, there will be many 'undocumented' quirks and 'peculiar' behaviours.

      FWIW, my brother worked on a project to digitise the Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages (in Perth, Australia). They spent 2 years documenting the existing (paper) system and writing a *huge* spec. ERP systems are several orders of magnitude more complex.

      1. ColinPa Silver badge

        Re: “ no fully costed and resourced plan in place to enable delivery of the program to completion.”

        I was told by someone involved in a similar project, that their first subproject was to improve the way the paper system worked. Then having done this, and got it working, they wrote the spec for the program.

        This had two advantages, the developers understood the existing system, and they did not have to improve the process and automate it at the same time which is a recipe for disaster.

        1. Anomalous Cow Herd

          Re: “ no fully costed and resourced plan in place to enable delivery of the program to completion.”

          Great idea to optimise the existing system.

          Bad idea to customise & configure yourself into a future updates blackhole

          Worse idea to try to document existing systems and create a whole new system from the ground up.

          This is the perfect project for an unscrupulous IT supplier; wandering spec, plenty of public funds, and no deliverables as a result of a joint 'no fault / parting of ways' equals simple transfer of public funds into private accounts. Yes, I'll take that performance bonus as well please....

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: “ no fully costed and resourced plan in place to enable delivery of the program to completion.”

        You're outlining one of the main problems with public sector projects. The PS is abysmal at defining requirements. Well that's maybe incorrect, the are unable to stick to a set of requirements. They'll start off getting the operation guys to defined it and spin up a project. Then some senior manager will want their stamp on it so will make changes so they can claim some credit for the project, repeat that up the food chain a few times, then for a council throw in elected members and for any project that spans an election make that two sets of elected members (all of whom will change their agenda multiple times).

        So any large public sector project becomes a pile of unconnected Lego pieces stirred by anyone with enough authority. And now it's a massive turd that no one will want to own other than a consultant at huge expense or a manager with severe Dunning-Kruger that see this as their opportunity for stardom by turning it around. And they'll hit the road as soon as a few self-congratulatory LinkedIn posts gets them their next project to fuck up.

  2. m4r35n357 Silver badge

    Oracle's business plan . . .

    Laugh all the way to the bank (no lessons will be learned from this).

    1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

      Re: Oracle's business plan . . .

      ERP system are generational - i.e. they last for a generation of "business" leaders. So each new generation makes the same mistakes the previous one did.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Oracle's business plan . . .

      "(no lessons will be learned from this)"

      I disagree, I work in IT for a different authority and I have learned not to attempt implimenting Oracle for pretty well anything. It doesn't help THIS situation I admit, but it won't spread here at least. Not so long as I have breath in my body, anyway.

  3. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Trollface

    Not a problem, people

    It's just another round of wasted money.

    You have too much of that anyway, right ?

  4. Missing Semicolon Silver badge
    FAIL

    £40M

    Is an awful lot of social care hours. Is there really no penalty for abject failure like this?

    It does not matter that the contractor failed - they still got paid.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: £40M

      Yes, we have fined Birmingham council £40M

      1. b0llchit Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: £40M

        Yes, we have fined Birmingham councilthe taxpayers £40M

        FTFY.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: £40M

          No that would be ridiculous

          This is an entirely different spreadsheet cell

  5. AbominableCodeman

    'lessons learned'

    Did WSCC look at Birmingham CC's current situation and decide 'Yes, we want some of that"?

    Perhaps they should have a chat with thier neighbours at Brighton and East Sussex, they seem to have divested thier outsourcing and gone in- house quite successfully.

    1. DuchessofDukeStreet

      Re: 'lessons learned'

      After the number of failed UK Local Authority Oracle implementations, you'd think *somebody* would have actually identified what the root cause was. Perhaps if there was a corporate policy to reclaim sales bonuses on failed projects, a little more upfront honesty might appear...

      Odds on, the council only wanted to buy an "off the shelf" product, but also wanted it to work with all of their existing processes and other legacy systems.

    2. Chris 15
      FAIL

      Re: 'lessons learned'

      Yes, that would be truer, however this is West Sussex County Council you're talking about. They're frankly appalling

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 'lessons learned'

      You'd think there were a bit of generalisation possible given local authorities are pretty much tasked with doing the same things albeit on differing scales.

  6. heyrick Silver badge
    Mushroom

    to deliver a critical Oracle ERP project

    Oracle again, pulling the same shit they did for other councils, and laughing all the way to the bank.

    This needs to be pulled into the remit of central government. That individual councils can piss away such obscene amounts of money on a bespoke "just for them" system is a national scandal.

    And no, I don't buy the "it has to fit with the way we've always done things". If tens of millions are spent with nothing to show for it, how things are done is shit and heads need to roll.

    These sorts of stories make my blood boil. Can't fix the fucking potholes but.......

    1. electricmonk
      Facepalm

      Re: to deliver a critical Oracle ERP project

      This needs to be pulled into the remit of central government.

      Ah, yes, good idea, because of central government's great track record for delivering projects on time and in budget.

      1. heyrick Silver badge

        Re: to deliver a critical Oracle ERP project

        Wasting money once rather than <counts on fingers>...

        1. Caver_Dave Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: to deliver a critical Oracle ERP project

          @heyrick You've not got enough fingers - even if you come from Norfolk

          1. FirstTangoInParis Silver badge

            Re: to deliver a critical Oracle ERP project

            So today’s news is that only 10% of England’s councils can actually submit audited accounts. Of the rest, half can do slightly audited and half not at all.

            I’m beginning to think paper and quill pens might be more effective.

      2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: to deliver a critical Oracle ERP project

        Indeed, let's not forget that many Westminster politicians started their 'career' in local government. Politicians are never the right people to run these projects.

        1. ScottishYorkshireMan

          Re: to deliver a critical Oracle ERP project

          But they seem to always be the right people to receive the 'brown envelope'....

      3. Tom66

        Re: to deliver a critical Oracle ERP project

        Projects like gov.uk are actually run very well. The difference is the government is directly employing the engineers working on the project. Contractors are used but only as needed to deliver parts of the project, the overall remit remains with the relevant department.

        Government projects can be run well, and the private sector can do well too, but when there's no incentive to manage costs, the private sector is not the right way to deliver projects like these.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    ERP Costs

    On my first ERP implementation 30 years ago one of the senior consultants gave me a rule of thumb for costing projects, it will come to about 10% of turnover when the dust settles. since then I have worked on around 20 (Oracle and others) implementations and that rule of thumb has never been far wrong.

    So when someone says they can implement ERP for an £800 turnover organisation for £2.4 million that is clearly rubbish. I would also guess that the current guess of £40 million is light by a factor of 2.

  8. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Is there anything that local government do that isn't already a solved problem and in many cases a solved problem not unique to local government?

    Payroll/HR? One of the first things computers were used for

    General accounts? Ditto

    Facilities management? People have been maintaining buildings for years, surely there have been packages for that for years. Only question, would they cover highways maintenance as well as buildings?

    Social housing? I know there have been packages for that since the late 80s. Possibly overlap with facilities management and accounts to be sorted out.

    Electoral register - even my lot can work that so I assume it's a long-solved problem.

    Social care? Maybe this one's special but maybe someone here knws differently

    Schools management? We seem to have a few readers involved in schools. What's the situation there.

    Library management? Again, if my lot can run their libraries - albeit reluctantly - I assume it's a solved problem.

    Is there anything which isn't a solved problem except fighting off Oracle salesdroids and coping with senior management and/or counsellors that said salesdroids have got at?

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      But the computing process of doing this in West Sussex (failed) and East Sussex (success) are so very different that really no lessons can be learned.

    2. Terry 6 Silver badge

      I think the problem is trying to integrate these into one humongous package. Then finding that the payroll system for schools is totally different to the one for Social Care, which is different to contracted health services, which is different to clerical staff......

      And that they all have different pension record systems. Or that repairs to school buildings is totally different to repairs to council housing, which is nothing like repairs to council offices..And so on.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        So payroll for a tractor company is different from payroll for a bank. but both manage to use ADP, you don't hear of John Deere or Goldman Sachs spending $Bn on a payroll system.

        1. Terry 6 Silver badge

          But you miss the point. John Deere aren't running a tractor company payroll scheme and a bank payroll scheme as well, each with different sets of scales. Let alone several schemes, all with different pension arrangements, different incremental rates, different reimbursement methods, different core hours etc.

          1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Coat

            "a tractor company payroll scheme and a bank payroll scheme"

            And yet ERP systems are sold as solutions to exactly that kind of multi-business multi-national environment.

            No really, that's sort of their thing. Y'know? UI-->Business rules-->DB updates

            But for UK LA's I think the joker in the pack is the all-decisions-traceable-back-to-specific-council-meeting/vote.

            I don't know of any business, anywhere that has that requirement.* I'm not sure if local authorities outside the UK do either.

            *Unless other vultures in the committee know otherwise?

    3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      " Is there anything that local government do that isn't already a solved problem"

      Turns out the answer is "Yes"

      It was noted (WRT to Birmingham) that all major policy decisions have to be traceable to Council meeting votes.

      I know of no company software that allows such tractability of major decisions, although in principle it's the equivalent to a Board vote/decision.

      However that's the same for all UK councils, and maybe other countries.

      Which suggests there is a market for a specific product for running LA's from parish to County size.

      Maybe.

      But the big savings start when multiple councils standardise on a single way of doing things without the system coping with all their existing variants. Local government exceptionalism is likely to be as difficult to work around as central government exceptionalism. "Oh we couldn't possibly use an OTS system as our requirements are sooooo unique," to recall the MOD and it's transport and logistics needs.

  9. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Coat

    Again, why would *anyone* think a system dev'd for mfg would know f**kall about an LA?

    When I say it like that does it not sound somewhat retarded?

  10. MrGrumpy

    Leisure suit

    And Larry continues to laugh all the way to his new island.

  11. s. pam
    Thumb Down

    Birmingham Fail 2.0?

    DId West Sussex hire consultants who were sacked from the debacle in B'ham??

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Birmingham Fail 2.0?

      Could be the other way around. Both of these have been going on for ages. I'm not sure which came first but plenty of chance for cross-over.

    2. abs

      Re: Birmingham Fail 2.0?

      Salesdroids tell council B that council A has signed up. Council B doesn’t want to be left out.

    3. seldom

      Re: Birmingham Fail 2.0?

      Nah, they all retired on the proceeds. % of project cost contract.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Root cause:

    Councils dominated by narcissitic bureaucrats remote controlled by Davos, UN. BIS, WHO and a bunch of billionaires like Soros and their NGOs. In colloquial terms; useful idiots. Oh look the money goes round in circles and back to a few.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      FAIL

      "bureaucrats remote controlled by Davos, UN. BIS, WHO and a bunch of billionaires"

      Someone trying out amanfromars imitation?

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    BCC can't even collect the bins

    Twice in a row this month the shambolic BCC have missed the Bin collections, some might say well it was subcontracted out, but that is no excuse you pay for a service and not checking that the contractor is doing the work.

  14. sgj100

    As has been noted by other commentators local authority requirements (and the public sector in general) are not the same as commercial companies. The rules, regulations and requirements they have to satisfy are complex and mostly created by central government and handed down from on high. However, what I don't understand is why each council goes about implementing their own system in their own unique way. Surely the requirements don't vary significantly from one LA to another (at least between councils of the same type - i.e. county, district, unitary etc).

    1. Terry 6 Silver badge

      Absolutely. I assume empire building is part of it.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    There is no "council"

    It's a myth.

    Random people on a committee, with no personal accountability.

    A good start would be to have someone on it who actually knows what they are talking about.

    Second option is just to keep, and advertise, the committee members. Let's know who the f'ing idiots are.

  16. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Coat

    I've always like the rule espoused by Mel Gibson in "Payback"

    "You go high enough it always come down to one man (or woman)"

    They may be the Mayor, or they may be someone on a key committee, or one of the "Officers" but for any given decision they are the person who's ordering/persuading/cajolling/browbeating people into doing things their way.

    Find them. Everyone else (in their domain) is simply a minion

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like