Combustion engines grind Linus Torvalds' gears

Mark Zuckerberg sits behind the wheel of a Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing, Open AI’s Sam Altman gets from A to B in a Koenigsegg Regera, and for many of us, Elon Musk drives us mad. But what about Linux kingpin Linus Torvalds? The creator of the Linux kernel shuns the traditional method of transport loved by many wealthy motorheads …

[tfewster]

Dumb interviewers

Torvalds is a clever guy, but I'm not interested in his opinions on subjects he's not expert on. And I wish he and other "pundits" wouldn't go along with interviewers trivial questions.

Linux, yes. Dealing with idiots, yes. Open source, probably. Gen AI, possibly. Cars, no.

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

Re: Dumb interviewers

<Linus speaks about his experience as an owner>

The nerve!

Also the point he makes about the relative simplicity of the technology is playing out as China eats the legacy manufacturers' lunch. China skipped over the issues it's always had making dinosaur powered cars that the West actually wants to drive, by going all in on EV tech.

[bombastic bob]

Re: Dumb interviewers

"as China eats the legacy manufacturers' lunch"

Through unfair trade practices like dumping, child+slave labor, oppression of human rights (labor unions?), industrial espionage, and intellectual property theft.

THAT and "cornering the market" on worldwide sources of raw materials... including cobalt mined in open pits by CHILDREN.

(some lunch THAT is...)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dumb interviewers

Yep, you got that right: >> Republicans child working laws <<

But what about China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dumb interviewers

And that really sneaky unfair trade practice of making a useful car, instead of something you can't put a roof rack on without breaking the glass top, and which has a teensy-weensy boot opening like the orange ones mouth.

They really are cheaters those damn sneaky Chinese.

(Though to be fair. BYD has stolen Tesla's cunning "burn to death because we don't have door handles that work after a crash" idea.)

[James Anderson]

Re: Dumb interviewers

Wierd set of comments. Linus is mostly interested in cars as a convenient means of transport, he does not claim any particular expertise other than as an owner and user of a couple of vehicles and as such finds the EV preferable to his old car.

The comments about the electric moter may be slightly off but actually the point is nobody has hundreds of years experience with EVs and it really levels the playing field allowing upstarts like Tesla and the various Chinese manufacturers to compete while Ford and VW struggle to enter what is effectively a new market for them.

[Wellyboot]

Re: Dumb interviewers

A powerplant change is small beer compared to how computerised design & build has levelled the field, decades of ergonomics & vehicle handling experience is now the major difference other manufacturers can bring to the table for a 'Nice' car. (very dependant on what you as the individual want hence the variety out there).

Edit: this in no way deprecates your opinion of Ford/VW problems.

[James Anderson]

Re: Dumb interviewers

I think the main problem with VW and others are the complications involved in offering EV, hybrid and petrol as “options” for the same model when the only parts they will have in common are the seats and electric windows. Plus having to do this for Skoda, SEAT, VW, Cupra and AUDI versions of the same basic chassis.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Dumb interviewers

"I think the main problem with VW and others are the complications involved in offering EV, hybrid and petrol as “options” for the same model when the only parts they will have in common are the seats and electric windows."

Companies such as Electric Classic Cars do conversions without modifying the vehicle so they could be set back to the original ICE if somebody wanted. The kits they have been making to sell are based on that principle so somebody buying one doesn't also need to do a bunch of modifications that might require fabrication and welding to do the conversion.

Hyundai had a range of Ionics that were petrol, hybrid and electric. I'm not sure if they all used the same bolt holes and fixing points but that would make the most sense or to at least have options in place so as much of the car was the same across all three power options. These days it would make more sense to just offer hybrid and BEV.

[collinsl]

Re: Dumb interviewers

Companies do offer the same cars with different drivetrains in that are otherwise identical - for example the Vauxhall Mokka in the UK. The only difference if you choose electric is that they drop out the ICE engine & gearbox, stick in the electric motor and some batteries and put some different software on the computer. That's it.

[Groo The Wanderer]

Re: Dumb interviewers

It isn't a fair assessment - EV technology is just brain dead simple, provided you can manufacture reliable power wheel hubs. Hydrogen is my bet for Western Canada's long-term future, though, because our winters can get bitterly cold (-20C is normal in January, for example. A "cold snap" is -35C or worse) and EV batteries just curl up and die under those conditions. Plus hydrogen doesn't have the long recharge times when you need to top up; you just swap in another cartridge and go. The only issue is the cartridges are probably going to be pretty pricey, and you won't be able to just put in half a cartridge, it'll be all or nothing. Mitigated somewhat by the fact most designs use multiple cartridges to extend the range.

It doesn't really matter whether you go with hydrogen fuel cells or hydrogen combustion engines (which are very new and experimental at this point), but even with hydrogen cracked from fossil fuels, you're at least concentrating the carbon released by the cracking into underground carbon-capture caverns instead of letting it out anywhere and everywhere you drive.

Due to the simplicity of EV drive trains, I think hydrogen fuel cells have the edge for smaller vehicles, but large vehicles like farm equipment and heavy transport trucks will do better with hydrogen combustion engines in the long run.

[werdsmith]

Re: Dumb interviewers

Norway also gets cold and that country is one of the leaders in EV adoption.

Therefore I don't accept the cold thing.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Dumb interviewers

"Norway also gets cold and that country is one of the leaders in EV adoption.

Therefore I don't accept the cold thing."

Bjorn Nyland reviews EV's in Norway and has done a bunch of cold testing all the way up to the arctic circle in winter. He's intentionally done overnight trips where he leaves the car needing charging outside at the hotel in freezing weather to be charged in the morning when its had a chance to cold soak. Other's have tested EV's both in summer and winter and reported their results for several different cars. There are issues and most will depend a lot on the model. The manufacturers/models are also getting better over time. If it's perishing cold and you plug in a new EV with good cold weather software, it can figure out how much energy to put into the battery's conditioning loop and how fast to charge the pack based on the temperature (it will warm up during charging on its own). If you've been out driving and pull in for a charge, many cars will condition the battery for optimum charging, but the pack will be warm from use anyway. All of this reduces the effect of very low temperatures and in places where temps just dip below freezing a bit, there might not be a noticeable or impactful change in range. If you do lots of long trips in the dead of winter, there may be some concern. Otherwise, probably not.

[Roj Blake]

Re: Dumb interviewers

Is defrosting the car in the morning more difficult with an EV?

[collinsl]

Re: Dumb interviewers

Shouldn't be - in fact it may be quicker as they would have electric heaters for the defrost system (either air or heated windscreen etc) which would warm up quicker than an ICE.

[VicMortimer]

Re: Dumb interviewers

It's easier. You just tell it to defrost and warm itself while you're still in your comfy house and it's plugged in outside. You then go out to a fully charged warm car.

(Less of an issue where I am, but it's also nice to have the car pre-cooled in the summer.)

[MachDiamond]

Re: Dumb interviewers

"Is defrosting the car in the morning more difficult with an EV?"

Vic's got it. I don't think there isn't an EV that you can't set to warm up or cool down at a set time. Many that have an app can be triggered remotely. The nice thing is that if the car is plugged in, it's not draining the pack and may not even need to engage the traction battery depending on the power required. If you want that, it's a question worth asking.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Dumb interviewers

Mayeb the real q is why are so many N and Canadians driving in the bloody frozen middle of winter when they could be working from home ?

Avoid the fucking problem to begin with.

[Orv]

Re: Dumb interviewers

"Cartridges" aren't going to work for hydrogen; it's just too bulky for any reasonable range. The Honda Clarity Fuel Cell vehicle had a 360 mile range but that required a fuel tank so large the entire rear end of the car had to be designed around it. (It's why all Clarity versions have such a weird rear suspension.)

EV batteries don't die when it's -20C, but they may need to use some energy to keep themselves warm. That does cut range but it's not an unsolvable problem.

Hydrogen had a run in California, but it's peaked and is now in decline. There were just never a practical number of fueling stations. Unlike an EV charger, which can go anywhere that the power grid goes, hydrogen fueling stations require a lot of new infrastructure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dumb interviewers

"provided you can manufacture reliable power wheel hubs"

The best electric cars to drive will have two motors, one for the front axle, and one for the rear. Drive shafts will be used to take power from the motor (via a differential) to the wheels on each side.

Why is this? Because you'll get better ride and handling if you keep the unsprung mass down. Plus, it actually reduces the part count and vehicle complexity. A separate motor per wheel is only really needed for serious off-roading.

[midgepad]

mercedes pusher stopper unit

The motor Mercedes Benz have bought in, to fit in, and be most of the wheel looks promising.

Drive shafts are quite heavy, even if only half their weight is unsprung.

[mtrantalainen]

Re: Dumb interviewers

The peak of hydrogen tech for passanger cars already went. Unless you manufacture hydrogen from fossil sources hydrogen car is basically an EV with bad battery (about 60% of all electricity going into green hydrogen is lost as heat before the car is actually moving – compare that to 10–15 % lost in pure EV cars).

In addition, you cannot fill the tank of hydrogen car at home similar to pure EV.

If you truly need fast fill-ups, just use ICE car with fully synthetic fuel.

[VicMortimer]

Re: Dumb interviewers

Hydrogen is a stupid distraction, it's a dead end.

It's incredibly inefficient and polluting to produce, has high losses in transportation, and is hard on components in contact with it. And it's explodey. Hydrogen makes sense if you're using it in a fuel cell on a space shuttle, but if you're not in a situation where you need the electricity and the water because you're hundreds of miles above the earth, you're stupid for even considering it.

Meanwhile, electricity distribution is a solved problem, we just need more chargers installed.

Batteries are the ONLY way to go. The vast majority of vehicles spend the vast majority of their time sitting still, that's time they could be charging if they need it.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Dumb interviewers

As opposed to the genius of wasting everybodies time in the idea called commuting ?

The real problem is the world is full of idiots, who are driving from home to sit at a computer in an office which they could just do from home.

SHeep everywhere, and basically nobody complaining about how fucking stupid this is.

[midgepad]

not polluting

Certainly inefficient, wonderful for rocket 2nd stages, possible for ships,lousy for cars.

But few fuels are manufactured with less pollution than passing electricity through water.

(Nobody is stupid enough to carry on making it by reforming methane, and we await large hydrogen gas sources from rusting iron in the earth's crust)

[midgepad]

hand jobs will be troublesome

You'll have some trouble crank-starting your engine by hand if batteries don't work in the cold. Still, perhaps it would keep you warm.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dumb interviewers

I wouldn't really call Tesla an upstart at this point...they're pretty well established now.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Dumb interviewers

"The comments about the electric moter may be slightly off but actually the point is nobody has hundreds of years experience with EVs and it really levels the playing field allowing upstarts like Tesla and the various Chinese manufacturers to compete while Ford and VW struggle to enter what is effectively a new market for them."

I'm seeing the legacy makers trying to "swing for the fences" rather than contemplate an EV design that fits the needs of a large target audience rather than the wants of a gadget freak/marketing department. Ford, VW and the other know how to make cars much more so than Tesla. If they just approached designs from the standpoint of a power plant swap, they'd do much better. To try and pile on all of the geegaws in one go puts people like me off. For example, power windows were at one time a luxury and some people didn't trust them and wanted manual crank windows. Over time there were so few people that insisted on manual operating windows that it made no sense to make them anymore. Some things such as folding or video wing mirrors may never make any sense. Lucky me, I've never had an issue with a wing mirror, but if one were damaged, I could buy a replacement and fit it myself via two or three bolts. A video system I could troubleshoot if documentation were available, but it could be all day just getting to the guts and I might still be left with having to buy some expensive black box, have it programmed to work on my car and spend hundreds of Bonds/Credits/Pu's while waiting weeks for delivery. It's not that legacy makers can't make EV's, it's they choices they are making in the design.

[collinsl]

Re: Dumb interviewers

> nobody has hundreds of years experience with EVs

No one has hundreds of years of experience with combustion engines either, since they were developed in the late 1890s. That gives at most 130 years experience (being generous).

Also worth noting that the use of combustion engines was by no means settled in cars until the 1910s - before that you had steam cars which were very good for the time, and some battery electric vehicles too. Jay Leno has a good video here on one from 1909 via MyClassicCarTV (rather than his quite good Leno's Garage series) - yes it could only go a short distance at low speed but it proves that the technology was there to make essentially what the GeeWhizz was supposed to be - a city car for short-distance travel.

And since then people have experimented with electric vehicles at various points like GM in the 80s with their all-electric car which got killed by lobbying by the oil companies. Yes there's no continuous experience on a massive scale like with ICE but there is some experience.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Dumb interviewers

yes it could only go a short distance at low speed but it proves that the technology was there to make essentially what the GeeWhizz was supposed to be - a city car for short-distance travel."

At the time most cities were compact and self contained since the vast majority of people would ride a horse, walk or, if well to do, be driven in a carriage. An automobile didn't have to go very far to get the merchant from his home at the edge of town to the high street. For long trips it would have been a horse drawn carriage or a train for somebody of means even if they did own an automobile.

GM's EV-1 was a compliance car when California passed a law that required makers to offer a zero emissions vehicle or not be allowed to sell in the state. This was politicians not understanding the readiness of technology and the cost impact to people that are not allowed to do insider trading to make money. The law was repealed and the EV-1 recalled from leaseholders and crushed to keep them from being reverse engineered. Too bad GM hasn't taken their proprietary tech and done much with it since. The Bolt's power train was supplied by LG.

[TheMeerkat]

Re: Dumb interviewers

I am driving a plug-in hybrid.

I prefer when it has an electric charge and I drive on electric power only.

I am with Linus on this.

[Skiver]

Re: Dumb interviewers

It isn't about agreeing or disagreeing. It's about the fact that nobody is looking to Torvalds for opinions on electric cars.

[werdsmith]

Re: Dumb interviewers

I don't think it matters. If you're not interested then don't read.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dumb interviewers

You are Ncuti Gatwa and I want my £10.

[Lee D]

Re: Dumb interviewers

That's what happens when you move from "famous person in a niche field" to "celebrity" and it's when I start to lose interest too.

I don't care what breakfast cereal Johnny Depp eats, I don't care what Benedict Cumberbatch recommends for living room colour, and I couldn't give a toss what Linus recommends for a car (outside the scope of a Linux kernel running inside a car computer system).

Fact is, the media think that that's all we'll be interested in at that point and will actively hunt out this nonsense trying to find something vaguely controversial.

Buzz Aldrin just gave his opinion on who to vote for... and all it's really done is divided opinion on him whereas before I think most people liked him. The last thing you heard about him? Probably that he punched a reporter who claimed he hadn't been to the Moon. That's what they're after, they don't care about anything else now.

They can't fill a 500-word article with Linus' opinion on in-kernel global locks. So few people are interested, and they are often working in highly non-technical arenas so anything they publish would be useless with that kind of thing in it. But they can ask what soap opera he likes, etc. until they find something they can report that their readers will understand. "Tech guy prefers EVs" is a bigger story to them, because they have no idea who he is, what he does, or what any of that means.

And that's why I stopped reading newspapers a LONG time ago, magazines and even "industry" magazines (sorry, but I cannot find a mainstream computer magazine that I enjoy nowadays... I had Readly for over a year so I had them all available to me, and I can't be bothered to read any of them. Gone are the days of my shelves creaking under the weight of all the PC Pro / PC Magazine etc. issues with their highly-technical coverage of new tech, programming, etc.).

And I really couldn't give a damn about anything Elon says because even in the arenas that he's considered an "expert", I think he's actually just waffling and really is as thick as two short planks. I couldn't care less about what any head of Apple says is the next big thing because universally they're salesman, not visionaries or technical people.

But you won't see a quote from an independent qualified surgeon in a newspaper article about a company's bio-medical interface. At least not in full.

And, often, The Reg is just as guilty of this as other places. The only difference is here the real interesting article is often hidden in the comments section.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dumb interviewers

I don't think your problem is that the magazines have got shittier...I think the problem is you're older and therefore more knowledgeable and experienced and you can now see the content for what it is.

I re-read a PC Gamer magazine recently...and I was struck by just how shit it was but I remembered it being awesome.

Go on to Youtube and watch some Violet Berlin clips from the 90s...stuff that at the time when you were a kid seemed epic. It'll make you cringe now...not necessarily in a bad way...because it is of it's time, but even low budget Youtube reviewers now are substantially better than anything from back then.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dumb interviewers

And what exactly is your specialism?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dumb interviewers

Gonna take a guess you don’t like EVs, so you are pissed that Linus likes his new Volvo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dumb interviewers

I don't often agree with Torvolds on a lot of things...but...

FUCK

NVIDIA

[bombastic bob]

Re: Dumb interviewers

EV's are (to some extent) a good idea in general, but NOT as your, ahem, "daily driver" or long distance travel. For most people, they are just impractical.

* On average an EV vs dino burner is around $10k more

* Battery replacement after 3 years, might as well get a new car

* resale value poor, used cars not wanted (see above)

* limited range, charge times too long

* Power grid cannot handle it if EVERYONE had an EV

* enriches CCP [where most battery materials come from]

When the battery tech GREATLY improves, or a hybrid "aircraft APU-like" power plant is shipped in every EV, they will become practical and (hopefully) affordable. But until then, I'll keep my dino burner, thanks.

Some day, probably. Just not NOW.

[Wexford]

Re: Dumb interviewers

> On average an EV vs dino burner is around $10k more

Not the case for our latest EV.

> Battery replacement after 3 years, might as well get a new car

Not the case for our 13 year old Leaf.

> resale value poor, used cars not wanted (see above)

Please share your evidence of this. I can't find anything that substantiates your claim.

> limited range, charge times too long

Our EV gets us everywhere we need to, and we charge at home or work.

Charging time is irrelevant - you're stuck in the old mindset where you need to make a trip to a refuelling station and stand around waiting for your vehicle to refuel. EV owners don't have to do this.

> Power grid cannot handle it if EVERYONE had an EV

Yes it could.

> enriches CCP [where most battery materials come from]

So what?

[collinsl]

Re: Dumb interviewers

> > enriches CCP [where most battery materials come from]

> So what?

I think we could reasonably object to this one on moral grounds, since anything using rare earth materials currently funds a repressive dictatorial regime which locks up dissidents in camps and tortures them to death. But that's a general point and not specific to EVs, although EVs need more of the rare earths than an ICE vehicle due to having to have a battery.

[Groo The Wanderer]

Re: Dumb interviewers

I really don't give a damn about American politics-of-the-month regarding any foreign nation they aren't actively at war with either directly or by proxy (see Israel.)

[MachDiamond]

Re: Dumb interviewers

"* Battery replacement after 3 years, might as well get a new car"

My goodness, Bob, what did you do to that battery that the maker won't honor the 8yr/80,000mile warranty?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dumb interviewers

"tfewster" is a clever guy, but I'm not interested in his opinions on subjects he's not expert on, like the value of hearing about other peoples opinions on stuff.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dumb interviewers

Not sure why you're getting downsmashed...you're not wrong...I've had a few "Stephen Fry" moments with stuff that Torvalds has said over the years...you know, those moments where they say something dumb about something you have a deep understanding of and it makes you step back and think "Man, is he actually not as smart as he appears?".

There is no doubt Torvalds is a genius in his field and is absolutely a leader in tech, but I think he would be the first person to tell you that he's not an expert in much outside of his core expertise.

[IGotOut]

Hmmmm...

EV motors are “simpler,” and manufacturers don’t need a “decade of experience to make a good electric motor,”

Nice to see he's talking about something he's an expert on.

Working in prototype, I can tell you one major car manufacturer is currently on their 12th redesign of a motor housing in two years.

It's not uncommon for a car maker to get through at least 6 or 7 designs.

Then there are the battery housings...

Oh and yes, the motor doesn't need ten years of design, but the batteries are still in their relative infancy.

Meanwhile another manufacturer is phasing out their 20 year old block oh and excuse me while I go and get some 1960 designed blocks that are going in state of the art military vehicles out the door.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmmmm...

Buy our $LUXURY_GERMAN_BRAND because of our engineering heritage

You mean that nearly 100years ago you went around the Nurbergring for the Fuhrer ?

And that means what for EVs ?

Although I do have a BMW i3 and it's awesome. Weighs nothing, out accelerates most of Stuttgart's finest 0-30 and has such aggressive regen breaking you can drive one footed like a gocart. If it didn't have the range of an asthmatic gerbil it would be perfect

[Wellyboot]

Re: Hmmmm...

Sounds like the perfect mini to use as a shopping trolley. Please let me know when a low mileage near mint example can be found for under £3k.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmmmm...

That amount of money isn't going to get you low mileage near mint anything in the US. That's going to get you something 20 years old with 300k miles and a note that it needs an engine.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmmmm...

Have to agree on the I3, I drove one for a short time, and it was a lovely thing to drive and very well put together, but the range is a bit dire, probably didn't help that it was an older one.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmmmm...

Who's the Fuhrer? Or perhaps you meant Führer -- umlauts matter. (Without an umlaut you could write Fuehrer.)

[Orv]

Re: Hmmmm...

Counterpoint: From the rear, an i3 looks like an angry robot.

[Geoff Campbell]

Re: Counterpoint

That sounds like another selling point, to me?

GJC

[munnoch]

Re: Hmmmm...

Just as well there are no other areas of expertise other than the means of propulsion required to design a car.

Like suspension, brakes, climate control, safety systems ... oh wait...

The ICE has been refined to the point that they can be banged out cheaply and are basically bullet proof and/or disposable. There might be a lot going on inside but you almost never have to deal with that. When was the last time you heard of someone having their engine rebuilt?

On the other hand can you imagine the complexity of managing regenerative braking? You still need to cut back and forth to the friction brakes in various scenarios and do it so smoothly the driver doesn't notice. If the battery is fully charged you have no where for possibly hundreds of kW of power to go. The rear axle (assuming 2WD) always needs friction braking. To maintain driver feel you blend in the friction brakes at low speeds (so that the motor can simulate creep therefore cannot be generating). I'd love to have a go at that software but I imagine Bosch or Denso can sell you a box off the shelf to do it all.

The complexity comparison for individual components is a complete non sequitur. A car is a package.

[Gene Cash]

Re: Hmmmm...

> When was the last time you heard of someone having their engine rebuilt?

If's it's a Ford, probably last week.

Engines are too much of a pain in the ass to rebuild now. You swap it for another one and hope it doesn't have the same problem.

For example, my co-worker has the Ford where they pressed the axle for the oil-pump drive-belt tensioner into a thin piece of sheetmetal bracket. It falls out and you lose oil pressure. Yes, there's a class-action lawsuit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmmmm...

And it was Ford that apparently came up with the idea for creating a new EcoBoost engine with a "wet belt", where the timing belt runs *inside* the engine and is immersed in the engine oil. Which means that it's not visible to check for wear, and is running around in oil that gets rather dirty as it goes on and can corrode it - but obviously you've got no advanced warning of that.

So what is a rather straightforward maintenance check and replacement, isn't far off a rebuild when it comes time to change the belt. And you'd better believe you'll be changing earlier than the manufacturer recommendation, as you've no idea when it's going to let go and wreck the entire engine.

[werdsmith]

Re: Hmmmm...

Porsche M96 or M97 engines. IMS bearings.

[Conor Stewart]

Re: Hmmmm...

It was such a dumb comment about something he clearly knows very little about.

Your comment about regenerative braking misses something out. Nothing is 100% efficient and so if you accelerate with a full battery up to 60 mph and then regeneratively brake back to 0 you won't end up with a full battery. The only time what you mentioned would apply would be if you started fully charged on a hill going downwards. There are other ways of braking using the motor too, if I'm stead of regeneratively braking you instead short the motor windings together then the motor will brake too. Also all EVs require friction brakes anyway for emergency stops and incase the motor or motor driver fails and in case the regenerative braking isn't aggressive enough.

[sammystag]

Re: Hmmmm...

If it were 100% efficient surely you wouldn't expect a full battery in any case. Work has been done moving the vehicle.

[munnoch]

Re: Hmmmm...

"if you started fully charged on a hill going downwards"

Fully aware of round-trip efficiency... but the charge rate on a nearly fully charged battery is far less than on a nearly empty battery, hence fast charge to 80% etc.

Point is that scenarios where the battery cannot sink the full regen current exist so the system must cater to it and that adds mechanical and software complexity.

[Geoff Campbell]

Re: and that adds mechanical and software complexity.

No, it doesn't.

The car regen brakes when it can. When it can't, the driver presses the brake pedal. This has worked perfectly for me for seven years and 100,000 miles in an early Tesla Model S, all over Europe (including, for example, the Welsh hills that I live amongst, and the Alps and Pyrenees that I don't, but enjoy driving through).

Don't complicate things that don't need complicating.

GJC

[mirachu]

Re: Hmmmm...

ICEs are NOT bullet proof if you think of them as disposable. They require maintenance to survive, and that's not even getting into design errors. Yes, ICEs are old, but that doesn't mean you can't screw them up, because tighter packaging and adding complexity are non-trivial tasks.

[MyffyW]

Re: Hmmmm...

" When was the last time you heard of someone having their engine rebuilt?"

A friend of mine the other month, they had the option of having the engine rebuilt, replaced or scrap the car. They sold it as "spare or repair" - basically a disposal. Internal combustion engines are awesome examples of engineering, but they are not simple and definitely not bombproof. And they have definitely had their day for most* social, domestic and commuting use cases.

* I just know some smart arse will say "I have to commute from Glasgow to Cornwall regularly". I feel for you, dear.

[Someone Else]

Re: Hmmmm...

On the other hand can you imagine the complexity of managing regenerative braking?

I dunno -- locomotives have been doing it for years decades, on a scale that not even a Hummer can imagine, so....

_{Hint...it's not that difficult, even when you add "blended braking".}

[collinsl]

Re: Hmmmm...

Depends on how you define "regenerative" - for a diesel locomotive the power is simply applied to a grid of resistors & a massive fan which then outputs the excess power as heat.

For electric locomotives the regenerated power is fed back into the power distribution system, thus powering other trains.

As for when to use regenerative braking, generally on trains that's controlled by the driver. They'll have a handle for the motors which either does throttle (push forward) or regeneration (pull back), and either a combined or separate brake handle for the air brakes. Freight trains commonly have two separate air brake handles as you'll have different brakes for the locomotive and the entire train, whereas fixed passenger trains (Electric Multiple Units or Diesel Multiple Units) will often (dependant on age) have one handle which does both regenerative and friction braking (they often don't have regenerative brakes though on older units).

Those tend to operate on the basis though that above X speed the train uses regenerative braking, below X speed it cuts it entirely and uses friction. Unless you hit the emergency stop though, in which case it applies all possible braking force.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Hmmmm...

"For electric locomotives the regenerated power is fed back into the power distribution system, thus powering other trains."

There's new consists in the US that will have batteries or ICE that operate primarily from overhead lines. I was hoping to see "tribrids" since so little of the US railways are electrified. Amtrak swaps power units on the east coast as trains transition from a region with overhead electrics to one without. At union wages, that's expensive and it makes more sense to be moving towards pure electric as much as possible. A battery bank is good for stations and yards where overhead lines are too much of a web.

[midgepad]

Diesel electric battery tripower trains

There's one being run by GWR in the south west of England.

There are overhead wires, then a section with no wires, and in principle there could be sections down in Devon and Cornwall with wires, and recharge it enough to get to the next one.

At Byron Bay in New South Wales there's a little photovoltaic train, it seems to only go from one end of town to the other, has a Diesel for backup, and looks cute. The electrics look like repurposed COTS car systems, and recover energy.

[Orv]

Re: Hmmmm...

I've had two cars now that blended regen and friction braking almost imperceptibly -- a Chevrolet Volt and a Honda Clarity.

It's pretty much a solved problem at this point. Both those cars blend the two depending on how hard you step on the brake pedal. Friends who borrowed the Clarity didn't know there was anything unusual about the brakes until I told them.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Hmmmm...

"Just as well there are no other areas of expertise other than the means of propulsion required to design a car.

Like suspension, brakes, climate control, safety systems ... oh wait..."

This is why Martin and Marc, the founders of Tesla, bought a chassis from Lotus. Their secret sauce was the power train so it made perfect sense to have a seasoned coach builder supply the rest of the car. It's also why many of the issues with Teslas isn't the power train but all of the other stuff they have limited experience with. I don't see how they can attract the best talent if they don't bring out any new and viable models. Designers want to design and if they are at Ford, GM or VW, chances are they'll also be working on something new. While most won't see the light of a clay mold, at least the work is interesting.

[Annihilator]

Re: Hmmmm...

The good thing about ICE, is that the general maintenance and wear/tear means you're constantly servicing them (or should be) and when parts go wrong, they're relatively small and affordable at a constant-ish level.

My mate who had a 2yo EV with a burned out motor though? That's a sudden repair/replace bill of £8K out of nowhere.

[Adair]

Re: Hmmmm...

And your point is?

[Annihilator]

Re: Hmmmm...

The things I said.

I'm on board with EVs. But I don't think "there's fewer things to go wrong" is the best made argument for why they're good, because the fewer things are bigger and very expensive to swap out (and broadly not serviceable)

[MyffyW]

Re: Hmmmm...

If it's 2yo it will be under warranty. And, might I suggest, a very uncommon occurrence.

[werdsmith]

Re: Hmmmm...

Porsche owners have been suffering IMS anxiety because their engine (M96, M97) have been self destructing. £20k

[elaar]

Re: Hmmmm...

That's not far off the cost to replace the engine (and other damage caused) on numerous engine designs that turned out to be naff. Such as the chain stretch problem with the BMW/PSA Prince engine, or the early ST engines that had catastrophic failures with piston land faults.

Even after 100 years of combuston engine design, there's still costly failures.

My partners VW Golf "eco" 3 cylinder engine had a fault at 3 years at 2 weeks and VW refused to replace it under warranty (expired 2 weeks prior), £900. Suspension struts started leaking at 2 years. Plus it wasn't eco at all. Very few things on an ICE car are "relatively small and affordable" anymore, unless you buy the part yourself and fit it yourself.

Most EV's have a warranty of 3-5 years, what one offers 2 years or less?

[MachDiamond]

Re: Hmmmm...

"Most EV's have a warranty of 3-5 years"

All the ones I've seen have a drivetrain/battery warranty of at least 8yrs/100,000 miles. The rule of thumb on battery packs is about 10 years if they aren't abused so you should get well past the warranty expiration before it's lost too much range. Those packs also retain a fair bit of value when they have lost capacity so it's not like a part on an ICE that's scrap (assuming there isn't physical damage on the battery pack).

[Wexford]

Re: Hmmmm...

> My mate who had a 2yo EV with a burned out motor

What repair bill? That's warranty.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Hmmmm...

"What repair bill? That's warranty."

The early Tesla Model S motor assemblies have a seal issue where coolant can leak into the power electronics and the repair cost is very expensive since they replace the whole motor pack. Anybody that had that happen under warranty should have demanded the replacement not have that design flaw. So now, you don't want to buy a second hand S where that can still happen since it will be long past a warranty repair.

[elaar]

Re: Hmmmm...

I don't think he meant under a decade to design from scratch every single part of an electric car, I think more to bring one to production using mostly existing designs/technology/products.

Even the Manx beach buggy now has recently announced an EV model, how many decades do you think they've spent designing batteries and their motor housing?

I think you're taking his comments too literally.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Hmmmm...

"EV motors are “simpler,” and manufacturers don’t need a “decade of experience to make a good electric motor,”"

EV motors are simpler than an ICE, but makers seem to have decided that both types of vehicles need to be at a similar level of complication so they add useless faff to EV's to properly bring their complication level up. All connected to the CANbus, of course, so a fault in the folding wing mirrors will prevent the car from releasing the parking brake.

[Lars]

the rumble of the V8

As that was mentioned I had a look and a listen to this rather stunning video years ago and when doing that I suddenly realised I still miss the sound of a V8.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI2sgyoiL1o

And this is of course as important as this article.

PS. what is that "flag" in the very beginning.

[Bill Gray]

Re: the rumble of the V8

My EV (like most) makes noises at low speed to alert bystanders. I've thought that there should be options for that noise (putt, putt, BANG for Model T aficionados; V8 noises for you, etc.)

[Conor Stewart]

Re: the rumble of the V8

It was a big problem with early EVs, they were just too quiet and they were expensive meaning it was only a certain kind of rich person who had them and they weren't usually the most alert when driving and didn't go very slowly through towns.

[nematoad]

Re: the rumble of the V8

...they were expensive

As far as I can see they still are.

It's all very well for Linus to say that "I prefer an EV over an ICE." He is, presumably, well off and can afford a new car but what about the peons like me managing on a very basic income?

Better off people in first world countries will get an EV but those in developing nations with lower incomes will struggle.

Will the price of second hand EVs be low enough so they can afford one? And do the batteries last long enough or will they die inside an otherwise roadworthy car?

As far as I can see the eco-nirvana of mass EVs is a long way off an the ICE will be with for a while.

[ricegf]

Re: the rumble of the V8

New EV prices are competitive with gas vehicles now, as are 3-5 year old used vehicles.

12 year old EV beaters don't exist yet because they haven't been in mass production for 12 years. Patience.

And the batteries will handily outlast the vehicles based on extensive field data. You can find the degradation curves online with a simple search. Are we still having to explain that one?

[Jellied Eel]

Re: the rumble of the V8

And the batteries will handily outlast the vehicles based on extensive field data. You can find the degradation curves online with a simple search. Are we still having to explain that one?

Yep. But it's perhaps where technology and user education might help. So this is a V8-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5-h2EjrIPE

Not your.. typical V8, but one that's been thrashed a tad and is now being rebuilt. It's 5yrs old or so and a racing engine, so been driven hard. Also a neat design because it can also do 'daily driving' duties and not just trailered to a drag strip. But kind of an issue for both used ICEs and EVs. Replacing a stock ICE is relatively cheap, replacing a battery pack will cost as much as a decent used ICE, or racing engine. But degradation curves usually assume driving and charging profiles. If an EV has been driven hard and fast-charged a lot, batteries and other components might be more degraded and need some very expensive replacement parts.

With ICEs, you should be able to pick up a 3-5yr ex-fleet or lease car and be reasonably confident it's been serviced and good for at least another 100k miles. Data for EVs are still being collated, but because most EVs have extensive data logging, it should be possible to produce that data. So how hard it's been driven & charged, current battery state and maybe an estimate of its remaining lifespan. Insurers are doing much the same thing and adjusting premiums according to their data.

That's all part of the 'TCO' debate which again relies on a lot of assumptions. EVs may be totally impractical for a lot of drivers, ie inability to charge at home. Or just the way electricity prices vary. In the UK, EVs might cost more per mile than ICEs based on cost of public or private charging. Plus the looming issue of applying 'fuel duty' to EVs, and ensuring that non-EV driving electricity users aren't being forced to subsidise EVs. Then other issues like tyre and suspension wear etc due to EVs being heavier, along with road wear. Then the huge elephant in the room with assumptions that we can produce enough electricity at an affordable price to 'decarbonise' transportation and heating.

[collinsl]

Re: the rumble of the V8

Worth noting that with the wider adoption of EVs it will become more common to purchase a reconditioned battery pack and sell them your pack as a sort of trade-in - EV batteries aren't single-unit devices which need to be built and thrown away as a single unit, they are made up of hundreds of individual cells, which can be swapped out and repaired (much like an engine can be reconditioned) so that wear is levelled across the battery.

The most common failure mode of battery packs currently is one or two cells getting well below the voltage of the others in their "group" which removes capacity from that "group" to the tune of that one cell's storage ability. Therefore, if you replace that one cell, you have a healthy pack again which has level wear and which can continue to be used for several thousand more miles (dependant on overall average wear of that "group").

There's some good explanations of how it all works over on the AgingWheels YouTube channel, more specifically these ones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od6z2N-92D8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHKYNrVR9Dk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDz_9iN-bUU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEJ4-BgybxY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBlS0Z-cbFU (I think)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEMQ0LxowhY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtZcDqhVBpg

...and probably more

[MiguelC]

Re: the rumble of the V8

A friend of my dad was a serious petrol head, I remember as a kid being driven in a Lancia Delta Integrale and a Ferrari (not sure which) and being amazed at the acceleration.

Today, a VW ID.4 gives you the same glued to the back of the seat experience for a fraction of the price.

No wow factor involved, but, like Linus, for me a car is just a means of transportation, not a token of virility :)

[Roland6]

Re: the rumble of the V8

Was probably the Lancia Delta Integrale, which also had (for the time) really good road holding. Reason for saying this, is that the Lancia, looking more like a family car, would not have triggered a kids idea of speed etc. in the way a Ferrari would.

I suspect the early Ford Focus (“sport” editions) took inspiration more from the Lancia Delta than from the VW hot hatchbacks, although they did have some of the engineering reliability of the VWs.

Whilst I enjoyed the Audi Coupe, the Lancia and Focus were a lot of fun.

[werdsmith]

"Road Holding"

Thanks for the nostalgia, bringing up that term from the last millenium.

I can still picture William Woolly Woollard talking about it.

[MachDiamond]

Re: the rumble of the V8

"Today, a VW ID.4 gives you the same glued to the back of the seat experience for a fraction of the price."

It would have been much nicer of VW to bring the ID.3 to the US instead of the .4 and filled a wide open niche.

[DS999]

Linus knows way too much about software

To trust a self driving car!

[Conor Stewart]

Re: Linus knows way too much about software

But knows very little about car design. You would think someone with his experience working on a large scale project with lots of different interoperating systems he would realise that the engine/motor of a car isn't the only thing needed and that an electric motor, battery and motor driver is actually quite complicated. I bet he would have a lot to say if someone refered to certain parts of the linux kernel as simple and could be done without much experience.

[Anonymous Coward]

Google will be cheering

They can keep tabs on Linus from his car.

More syping means more ad revenue for Google.

Dump Google and don't buy a car powered by Google. You know it makes sense.

[veti]

Re: Google will be cheering

Take your pick of who you want spying on you.

Google? Could be worse. At least they don't leak.

[cipnt]

Re: Google will be cheering

I see that whole advertising campaign by Apple about how they protect your privacy has worked on some people.

They all collect data on you: your phone, your car, your smart microwave, and, of course, your government.

Don't get the illusion of privacy because you picked one brand over the other. If you really want privacy, compile your own open source software and run it on your own hardware.

[trevorde]

Smartest person in the room

Elon Musk, of course! Not only does he know all about EVs (Tesla), self driving cars (FSD - coming next year), digital currency (Dogecoin), space rockets (SpaceX), computer implants (Neuralink), social media (Xitter), mass transportation (Hyperloop), tunnelling (Boring Company) and AI (xAI + OpenAI). Can't wait for his thoughts on software development and Linux kernel internals.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Smartest person in the room

Elon Musk?

Hes that paypal guy right?

[Lars]

Re: Smartest person in the room

"Hes that paypal guy right?".

No, his company was bought by paypal and then he become part of paypal. He didn't found Tesla or Spacex either.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Smartest person in the room

"He didn't found Tesla or Spacex either."

He did found SpaceX.

[O'Reg Inalsin]

Re: Smartest person in the room

Space X is certainly an ongoing screaming success. The reason why seems to be hiring some highly capable visionary engineers, some of whom were thwarted while working at NASA, others who put opportunity to excel at their job above job security. Telsa (excluding FSD) was similar but seems like it might have flattened out. xAI might or might not be a big success - if it is then like space X, it is because of making a space for capable engineers to have the opportunity to excel.

Whatever you think of him, it's worth understanding the things he has done right, not just the things he has done wrong. I don't think the successful parts requires a CEO being a carbon-copy of Musk by any means. If fact, I wouldn't recommend it. But they should be able to identify success and its ingredients.

[Gene Cash]

Re: Smartest person in the room

> SpaceX is certainly an ongoing screaming success.

The reason why is because it's mostly run by Gwynne Shotwell, who's actually an excellent manager.

[Gene Cash]

It's not the electric motor

Man, I loved my EVs, they were great to drive. When they worked.

The motors are the simplest part and usually never break unless they're SEVERELY abused.

It's all the other sh*t that breaks.

The motor controller board. The battery management system board. The DC fast charging interface board. The slow charging system. The main controller board that talks to all the other boards. The HV contactors welding shut. The $5 phase sensor that makes a brushless DC motor work. Teslas have a 12v lead-acid battery that a lot of people don't know about, and if that loses its charge, the entire car is dead.

And there's no actual diagnostics or training that I've seen. They just roll out the parts cannon and start swapping $1,000 boards on your dime.

I saw one where they swapped ALL the boards, and it was the main ground hanging on by one strand. They crimped on a new connector and all the gremlins went away.

I went back to gas.

[Steve Foster]

Re: It's not the electric motor

Practically all EVs have a 12v car battery; it's there to run the all the ancillary automotive systems that have all been designed to work with and run from a 12v car battery. It gets charged from the HV traction battery.

At some stage, they may get designed out (as they shouldn't strictly speaking be necessary).

[Conor Stewart]

Re: It's not the electric motor

It is probably a safety thing. By having a small 12 V battery they can completely disconnect the main battery (from everything except the BMS) when not needed. It also means they don't need to deal with the inefficiencies of a multiple hundred volt to 12 V converter when the car is just sat there since the quiescent current would just end up draining the main battery.

[ricegf]

Re: It's not the electric motor

Also a cost thing. Although Tesla is moving to 48 bolt accessory subsystem that never(-ish) needs a battery swap. Ford praised the design, though they haven't yet adopted it.

[Wellyboot]

Re: It's not the electric motor

I suppose it depends how the batteries are daisychained within the pack but I'd think just providing a 12v (or maybe multiple) bus from the main battery pack wouldn't be too hard.

[MachDiamond]

Re: It's not the electric motor

"Also a cost thing. Although Tesla is moving to 48 bolt accessory subsystem that never(-ish) needs a battery swap. Ford praised the design, though they haven't yet adopted it."

The danger level with DC goes up faster than with AC. There's also over 100 years of 6/12vdc automotive design, parts, aftermarket and diagnostic gear. 48v quarters the wire sizes needed (to a point), but so much of that could be simplified out to start with. Below a certain wire size, there's mechanical issues with breakage. Even if I'm working on something that doesn't need any more than 30gu, it's just too dang small unless it's only a PCB bodge so I'll use 24gu or bigger.

It's a big departure for what might be a minimal gain. This is especially the case since lighting has gone to LED and other things are now made more efficient so there isn't a need to be running chunky wire all over the place.

[timrowledge]

Re: It's not the electric motor

Tesla started using li-ion 12v batteries around late ‘21.

[MachDiamond]

Re: It's not the electric motor

"Tesla started using li-ion 12v batteries around late ‘21."

The Cybertruck has a 48v low voltage system. Don't neglect having a new battery fitted every couple of years and making sure to turn the vehicle on so the traction battery will be able to top up the 48V battery if the CT isn't being used for a week or so. I'm doubting that any roadside service vehicle is able to jump a 48v battery and you won't find a new replacement anywhere but from Tesla ($,$$$).

[Conor Stewart]

Re: It's not the electric motor

For some reason I have seen that a lot of people seem to think that you can use a Tesla or other EVs 12 V battery to jump start an ICE and have heard of people actually doing it. Whilst it may work the batteries aren't designed for it and it will just degrade them and the manufacturers don't recommend it either

[Geoff Campbell]

Re: 12v EV batteries

I can say with absolute certainty that the low voltage battery in a Tesla Model S (for most model years, I don't know about the really recent stuff) is a completely standard 12v AGM lead/acid battery, quite capable of jump-starting any other 12v-equipped vehicle. They're very large motorcycle batteries rather than small car batteries, but they will do the job perfectly, in fact I have an old Model S85 battery in my shed that I use for jump-starting stuff as needed, after replacing it in my car for a new one while I had the front end apart.

GJC

[MachDiamond]

Re: 12v EV batteries

"after replacing it in my car for a new one while I had the front end apart."

and you need to have the front end of the car apart to get to it.

[ricegf]

Re: It's not the electric motor

And that never happens to their gas vehicles? Automakers perfected the whole parts-swap shenanigans on their internal combustion engine products!

[Ganso]

Re: It's not the electric motor

The hype train I see with increasing concern is the "SW defined car", so to continue with your list of problems, add Over-the-Air updated bricking your car, it slurping your data and sending it to the mothership, it snitching on you to the alphabet boys...

[MachDiamond]

Re: It's not the electric motor

"And there's no actual diagnostics or training that I've seen. They just roll out the parts cannon and start swapping $1,000 boards on your dime."

The lawyers don't want them to disclose any information about the cars for trade secret reasons. The thing is, the people who can make the most use of those "secrets" already know them or can reverse engineer everything anyway and usually do. There are several companies that do nothing but take apart cars and provide data to competitors. Been there and it wasn't Munro.

The Car Wizard just bought a big SUV (a trade actually) and the problem with it was a blocked fuel return line. No board swapping and plenty of documentation. The previous owner gave up on it since it was a very odd problem that nobody could figure out.

New ICEV cars come with a dearth of service info now too.

[Exact Circus]

(...) Flowers

If all vehicles suddenly had zero emissions, what percent reduction of total carbon would be achieved ?

Asking for a friend.

[veti]

Re: (...) Flowers

In the US, it's about 28%. A bit lower in most countries, probably closer to 20%.

But "zero emission" vehicles aren't on the cards at all until we get zero emission electricity generation. Some of us are close to that now, but most not so much.

[Pete Sdev]

Re: (...) Flowers

Don't know off the top of my head.

I do know thanks to a recent app update, commuting to work on my ebike saves 2.5kg CO² per day compared to if I hypothetically drove to work (with an ICE).

Which is about half a metric ton per year.

YMMV ;-)

[Anonymous Coward]

Each to their own

Get back to me when there’s an affordable family sized EV that can do 500km guaranteed.

Oh, and when there’s sufficient infrastructure.

[LybsterRoy]

Re: Each to their own

Any of them can achieve that 500km. I assume you meant with frequent recharging stops since you didn't say "on one charge"

[Geoff Campbell]

Re: Each to their own

500km is, what, 310 miles?

I'd say about half the current market can do that easily, including a whole bunch of cheap second-hand Tesla and Hyundai models. Even my knackered old Model S85 can do 230ish miles routinely, and it's free to recharge when I do need to stop.

Try harder if you really want to find an excuse, eh?

GJC

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Each to their own

Base Model Y cannot do 500km on one charge. It can do a hypothetical 455km, and we all know the quoted figure is strictly an "up to" in much the same way as internet speeds are advertised.

[Geoff Campbell]

Re: Each to their own

How does that disprove what I wrote?

GJC

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Each to their own

"On one charge" wasn't given as a condition. Also, are you saying you drive 500 km in one sitting? You shouldn't, it's not healthy and taking breaks is a good idea anyway.

[Conor Stewart]

'EV motors are “simpler,” and manufacturers don’t need a “decade of experience to make a good electric motor,”'

Spoken like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Electric motors are far from simple and don't exist in a vacuum either, they need a lot that goes along with them.

Sure you could make a basic DC motor and run it with simple drive electronics but you wouldn't get good results. Motors are very complex when you start trying to optimise for power and efficiency, especially when you also try to make them light, compact and reliable. Then add in the battery and it's protection and monitoring and charging systems, where they are trying to pack as much capacity in as they can and still keep it small and light, whilst still being able to provide high current. Then add in the very complicated area of motor drivers and regenerative braking, designing a motor driver to handle that much power and do it efficiently and handle regenerative braking is far from simple.

Then add in all the other parts of a car, air bags, crumple zones, brakes and all the electronics and that is far from simple too and it needs to be very reliable and fail safely and pass all kinds of regulations. Why do you think most EV manufacturers are ICE car manufacturers?

I have no doubt that he would have a lot to say if someone called core parts of the linux kernel simple and said that they don't require much experience to make. I would have thought that with him being such an experienced developer and managing a large scale open source project that he would realise that things aren't that simple. It is a common annoyance with engineers and software developers when other people who don't know what they are talking about call something simple or easy when it really isn't.

[TheMeerkat]

Chinese never managed to compete on ICE cars but they are doing reasonably well in EVs, so yes, EVs are clearly simpler.

[Wellyboot]

Only a few countries make airships but many more make jet powered aircraft, clearly jets are easier - Same flawed logic!

There are many reasons why China didn't get far with ICE cars, very few are engineering related.

[werdsmith]

Electric motors are far from simple and don't exist in a vacuum either

I beg to differ, my Dyson has one. Though it is far from simple.

[Pascal Monett]

Ah, an electric car

I'm sure Torvalds had no trouble buying it.

I'm waiting for his comments in 8 years when he'll have to replace the battery.

Also, does anyone know the volume of the second-hand market for 4-year old EVs ? Because I don't think there is one.

[ortunk]

Re: Ah, an electric car

Total them in a small accident & sell them to 3rd world countries

[dangerous race]

Re: Ah, an electric car

Why replace the battery after 8 years? Pray tell Monsieur Monett

My EV is 5 years old, the battery has a warranty that it won't fall below 80% capacity within 8 years or 100,000 miles (I think). Even at 80% capacity I could still drive about 200 miles, I need a break well before 200 miles/4 hours on the road. Currently :-) my EV battery is still at ~97% SoH after 28,000 miles, pretty low mileage, I don't travel as far as I used to - age catching up with me.

There was a Jaguar I-Pace up on ebay with 291,000 miles on it, the battery could probably only do ~100 miles on a full charge by then but whatever, my first EV did about that for the 5 years I owned it as a 1 year old ex-demonstrator.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/326162356900

[werdsmith]

Re: Ah, an electric car

Yes, this battery replacement thing. Pub-bore FUD. Long since debunked.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Ah, an electric car

And that battery health is much like that on my phone - self-reported by the provider of said warranty and has fallen to just above the warranty threshold and seems to suspiciously remain just above it despite clearly observed reduced performance.

One of the biggest complaints about the EV sector is the current inability by independent 3rd parties to report (or reliably report) on the state of the battery health. There's a bloody good reason for that.

[Orv]

Re: Ah, an electric car

In California there's a substantial second-hand market for EVs and they draw a premium price compared to gasoline cars.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Ah, an electric car

Meanwhile in the real world their residual value drops like a stone.

[Gonzales]

Re: Ah, an electric car

I bought a second hand Nissan Leaf (with only a 23KWh battery) 7 years ago. The car is 9 years old and there is no noticeable degradation in battery capacity. It still has a range of 72 miles when charged to 80% capacity. This is fine for us as 95% of our journeys (which are less than 20 miles). I get 5 miles per kWh which is pretty good - probably because I am not transporting a heavy and costly battery around which might only be useful 4 or 5 times a year. But I do look after the battery and drive sensibly. In the summer, the running costs are minimal as I effectively charge it from our solar panels.

I'd be interested to know where the idea of the batteries only lasting 8 years comes from. Are there are statistics published on this (rather than rumours put out by the oil industry)?

[MachDiamond]

Re: Ah, an electric car

"I'd be interested to know where the idea of the batteries only lasting 8 years comes from. Are there are statistics published on this (rather than rumours put out by the oil industry)?"

Warranties are usually between 8 and 10 years. The batteries don't just die one morning like a lead-acid battery will do, but degrade over time so manufacturers set up the warranties so the packs won't have degraded enough to require warranty replacement during the covered period. If you don't drive that far, a pack might last a really long time. Estimates are that you should get at least 10 years of good range. The pack would still be good for another 10 years of stationary uses. With reconditioning by swapping out duff cells, they could go much longer. A 60kWh original capacity that has degraded by 33% is still a 40kWh pack. I could run my house without changing habits for the better part of a week on that. With some economy and no recharging, I could get much more. This is why it's very hard to find a salvaged pack anywhere or one at a bargain price.

I was hoping to get a job that was 20 miles from my doorstep to the hanger. I could charge at home and also at work (work being free so...). A first gen Leaf was on my list if I started that job. They are selling for cheap and I could keep my other car, which is much nicer, without putting loads of commuting miles on it.

[mirachu]

Re: Ah, an electric car

Properly taken care of the battery can easily last over a decade, and by that point the replacement is going to be cheaper and several generations newer.

[heyrick]

I currently have a little EV

And by little I mean about 100km range. While it's a nice car, the battery is an endless source of concern as it's extremely variable as to what the actual capacity is. My work commute takes a little under of a quarter, round trip, but when the battery is at half it'll drain through more than a quarter just getting there. With my ICE I could top up when I got to half but with the battery, it needs (one time in four) to be a complete charge. And let's not talk about how different the battery is at 10C than at 20C. In the summer I could do three journeys easily. In the autumn, I can manage two and a half (so really only two as there's no charger at work yet). I dread to think how it'll behave when it hits freezing next month.

I have a suspicion my next car will be either ICE or some sort of hybrid.

[MachDiamond]

Re: I currently have a little EV

"While it's a nice car, the battery is an endless source of concern"

Keep your eyes peeled to see if somebody is making a replacement pack with more range. There are a few small shops that do that for older EV's that had limited range. Even the early Prius can be fitted with a Li pack that gives it much more pure electric range and it drops in the same space using the same connections.

[headrush]

Bypass

A bypass is something that allows people from point A to get to point B more quickly and people from point B to get to point A more quickly. People living at point C wonder what's so great about points A and B that people are so keen to get there. Why can't they just make up their minds once and for all, where the hell they want to be.

It's almost as if there weren't a thing like the Internet that could enable most people to stay where they are.

Driving for pleasure?

ROFL!

Rent time on a track.

[SomeRandom1]

Re: Bypass

Driving hasn't been pleasurable for at least the past two decades.

Totally agree with track - that's where the fast cars should be driven.

[Ahab Returns]

Re: Bypass

Out here in the wilds of the Cheshire countryside, it can still be fun. But not in some monster fast EV or ICE - you need an MG Midget or a 2cv, or a Mini Cooper - cars you can wring the neck on without risking life, limb or licence.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Bypass

"Driving for pleasure?

ROFL!

Rent time on a track."

If you want to go really fast, sure, rent time on a track. If you want to explore more than a couple of miles from where you live, being able to take a Sunday drive is fun. For a while before my mates all moved away, we'd have adventures on the weekends. Museums, observatories, a mad dash to California to see the world's oldest trees (and a radio observatory), etc. We are a nerdy bunch and always keen to learn science stuff outside of our engineering roots. On more than one occasion we came across home schooling families taking their kids to see the same things.

[Bebu]

That Linus' new motor is a Volvo...

is slightly amusing in these parts (AU) as the stereotypical Volvo driver is older (elderly even), not always the fastest on the uptake which, with the Volvo's headlights being always on, gave rise to "Volvo drivers: the lights are on but nobody is home."

The Volvo had a reputation for safety which was in part due to other drivers carefully avoiding the vehicle - doubly so if a lawn bowlers hat were visable through the rear window.

Should be amusing should Linus is ever on a longer journey and is forced wait an hour or two to recharge. I would have imagined he might have opted for a plug-in hybrid given his position on ECC ram. ;)

[Ball boy]

Re: That Linus' new motor is a Volvo...

I can partly-qualify that sentiment: here in the UK - half a world away from AU - I rode motorbikes in the late '80's. Back then it was considered wise to avoid Volvo drivers (the old, box-shaped ones were invariably driven by elderly gentlemen), anyone wearing a hat or sporting driving gloves and *definitely* anyone smoking a pipe! If you were approaching a junction and saw a Volvo-driving be-hatted owner gripping the wheel with their gloves while clenching a full-blown Sherlock Holmes between his teeth, it was wise to assume an involuntary and rapid dismount might well be on the cards!

While the pipe has fallen out of fashion and driving gloves are a thing of the past, to this day, if I see a hat being worn by a driver (doubtless backwards: which entirely escapes my logical understanding for the reason of the brim) I assume an overly defensive position! The modern Volvo driver per se? No better or worse than the rest of us.

[Lars]

Re: That Linus' new motor is a Volvo...

"Volvo's headlights being always on,".

In many European countries the default is that the lights are on (you can switch them off too) because lights are used daytime too for added safety.

And there is no doubt it is safer as you are simply more visible lights on. I had a very nice Volvo 164 then long ago, a very nice car with a straight 6 3L fuel injection engine, top speed 200 km/h (124 m/h).

People living in countries where lights are not used during the day often have strong opinions about it, which is odd as they cannot know anything about it.

[heyrick]

Re: That Linus' new motor is a Volvo...

"as they cannot know anything about it"

Oh, but it's wearing out my bulbs, etc etc... ?

I think it's an EU wide rule now that cars should have daylight lights at the front. My last two cars had LEDs there. Given the way some people drive, it would have been good to have red ones on the back too, but that seems to be an optional thing at the moment. I live in France so don't have to deal with daytime darkness and my opinion is strong - "bloody see me you twats" - so extra lights are good. The number of people I see driving around with a burnt out headlight (so it looks like a motorbike until you're close enough to think "shit, that arsehole is straddling the white lines" and take evasive action) is nigh on ridiculous.

But, then, I've seen the contortions necessary to change a bulb on some cars, that also is ridiculous.

Either way, extra lights = A Good Thing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: That Linus' new motor is a Volvo...

The OP is referring to the fact that Volvo cars had daytime running lights a long time before the majority of other brands on the roads. That is the same in the UK as well as Australia. Hence they stood out as the lights being on....and nobody home.

Daytime running lights are pretty standard these days in Australia, my 10 year old 4WD has them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: That Linus' new motor is a Volvo...

An hour or two? That's not how you do it. You keep in the optimum 20 to 80% range, where the battery doesn't wear as badly as when you force it to full, and it'll charge faster. If it's taking more than about 30 to 45 minutes using a quick charger, you're almost certainly doing it wrong. Or the charger is being stupid.

[ColinPa]

What's your relationship with your car?

I had someone come to my house to do a survey on cars. I had just received an Astra SRI as a company car.

The questions and answers went a bit like

Q:Name all of the car manufacturers you can think of. A: Ford, Peugeot, Lada..

...

Q:What do you think of the build quality of a BMW: A:Dont know... Ive never had one.

Q:What do you think of the sound quality of a Mercedes car? A: Dont know, I did not notice, the radio was off.

...

Q:What's your relationship with your car. A: It is a car, it gets me from A to B.

Q:What do you call your car? A: Car.

...

Q:Can every one afford a BMW? A: No, some people cannot afford to heat their houses.

...

Q:What sort of people drive BMW? A:They tend to drive too close to the car in front and overtake in dangerous situations

I was clearly not the target audience for the up market German cars.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What's your relationship with your car?

Oh LOL, that first question. I could list dozens. I also know way too much for the interviewer's comfort about BMW's engine issues.

[Omnipresent]

He may not be an expert on cars

But he knows how these evil SOB data companies work. Unfortunately for all of us, cars are becoming the new data collection point to spy on the general public and keep tabs on them. They are not talking about cars at all, they are talking about the newest latest and greatest power move to enslave the public.

Enshitification continues. This time these aholes didn't even let the tech get off the ground before they started using it against you.

[goblinski]

After getting in a rented Tesla S Plaid last week, I can only say one thing:

Self-driving - nah, not interested, but emergency braking assistance and all that stuff - absolutely mandatory.

This thing has more than needed to mess you up in parking maneuvering. Not enough to kill you, but plenty enough to kill others or total the car in a 0-35 mph acceleration over two car lengths.

And I'd suspect many other EVs would have a similar ability to throw you in a wall at speed from your parking space.

[Anonymous Coward]

Refuelling.

So you're OK "refuelling" an EV, as long as you don't live in a block of flats (apartment block) or a street with no off street parking. A lot of people have no hope of using EVs as the infrastructure is abysmal (here in the UK at least)..

[goblinski]

Re: Refuelling.

That's the main issue with EVs everywhere, it's a market that is pretty much confined to people with a parking structure and access to at least a plug. They can advertise all they want on charging stations and such, few people would buy an EV that they have to park on the street.

Tesla had this solved more than ten years ago with a swappable (part of the) battery which was making the secondary battery a core return like a propane bottle would be, automatically swapped in less time than it takes to fill up a gas tank. Then they dropped the idea quite abruptly. And what do you know, there are thousands of battery-swap stations in China now.

To me this was the best of both words. Swap a standardized smaller pack that will get you half of your range or less, keep the onboard battery pack. Never worry about the state of your secondary battery pack. And if you don't trust the swapped batteries - just keep yours and never ever swap it.

[Lee D]

Re: Refuelling.

When I bought a house, I literally factored this in. I realised that the place I was renting before would NEVER allow me to use an EV - the allocated parking was quite a way from the house, there was no infrastructure to that point and they couldn't even be bothered to run a bulb to the DARKEST alley I've ever had to cross through (in order to get to the house in the first place).

So when I bought a house, even though it had to be the cheapest one I could get, I got one with a driveway, which goes all the way up to the porch, inside which is the main electrical intake and meters, etc.

So I know that I can get an outside charger slapped on the side of the porch and give it a direct feed to the consumer unit.

Because, to be honest, I wouldn't own an EV I couldn't charge at home. I'm sure it's possible. I'm sure some people do it. I'm sure it's just a small inconvenience and some people would judge me for it. But I would absolutely want to park that thing on my own property, plug in to my own electricity, and leave it like that overnight.

I once did the maths and in the town I used to live in there was one public charger for every 8,000 people in the town (not counting visitors, etc.). It was simply not viable to plan on using them. Unless you only get one-eight-thousandth of a turn on one via some kind of timeshare, which means an overnight charge every... 22 years or thereabouts.

I'm sure that will change over time, but you know what? £300 on Amazon, and a couple of hundred to an electrician friend, and I have my own fuel station for an EV. Without that... I simply wouldn't bother with them. To the point that I choose my house using that kind of capability in the future as criteria.

My previous house (before I rented), we have a 32A commando connector on the side of the house installed for something else (an electric kiln). And I sited it where you could run a cable to the front drive. Because even then... I knew eventually we'd need it to charge an EV.

My next car will almost certainly be an EV (I'm skipping hybrids entirely). When my current car dies, that's what I'll get. But most places I've lived, or worked, it simply wouldn't be viable.

Oh, and I haven't seen a single electric car charging point near me, or on my way to work, except a few at a Tesco 20 miles away that almost exclusively are used by their delivery vans to charge / keep refrigerated. My workplace has some... but they are used by the public a lot. And they charge 60p per KWh - twice my home rate. Great to know I wouldn't be "caught out" if I got to work with 0% battery, but otherwise I wouldn't touch them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Refuelling.

...and that won't be changing as the economics of the chargers do not make sense. High capital cost, high "fuel cost" and very little return.

[Big_Boomer]

I have a V8 (2004 Lexus LS430) and it's whisper quiet so I only hear the V8 rumble if I open the double glazed windows and floor it. It does 24Mpg(UK) on average and I fit in it, which is my most important criteria. It's comfy, quiet, powerful, reliable, smooth, fast, effortless, and most importantly,... paid for (cost me £4500 seven years ago).

I have driven a few EVs including Tesla S, Y, and 3, as well as a Kia EV6 and a family members Renault Zoe. I mostly like them but none of them have the interior space of the LS430 and the EVs build quality is mostly poor (the Kia was the exception), probably due to the use of weight saving materials. Even the current LS500h isn't as nice as my 20 year old 2 ton barge. The smoothness of the motor and the instant torque in EVs is nice but the lack of a gearbox makes no difference to me as my LS430 has the smoothest automatic gearbox I have ever driven. The range is still an issue for me as is the cost and the size of vehicle I need, so I shall be sticking with my antique dinosaur burner for a while yet. The actual range is not an issue most of the time, but EVs lack the flexibility that ICE cars have to be able to do vast mileage at a moments notice. You also don't have to go out of your way to find an available/working charger, although finding an open petrol station in France can sometimes be a challenge. <LOL>

Finally, the chances of me ever buying a car made since 2021 is pretty much nil. I hate the nagware and interference systems built into almost all modern cars. By all means fit it, but I want the option to disable it PERMANENTLY if I so choose.

[JLV]

I have an old Civic with a stick shift - a rare bird in Canada indeed.

I really sympathize with Linus' take that even a mundane EV is so much better than an auto transmission. Looking forward to switching some day.

The Civic is still running fine and the emissions cost of manufacture makes it questionable to replace a high mileage ICE that only gets driven about 5000 km a year, max.

Can anyone chip in how EVs, which tend to be heavy, feel on windy mountain roads? We have plenty of those and heavy US sports cars like Chargers or Mustangs feel atrocious on them, being seemingly single-minded to go in a straight line.

[CowHorseFrog]

The real q is why does a guy who works from home even worry so much about cars ?

Its not that hard to minimize driving to 10 minutes a week and thats being generous and still living well.

We dont drive to the beach 5 hours way because we can walk there. We dont drive half way around the country just to sit on our arse and do nothing like all the tourists in my town... again idiots.

[anonymous boring coward]

"the cost of buying EVs or the price and lack of infrastructure to charge them."

This varies greatly depending on where you live.

[Libertarian Voice]

I don't have a problem with a motor as a power pack, my issue is with the energy storage; batteries, while being far superior to what they were, are not the solution; okay for phones but they don't scale well.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Scaling well" is subjective, and depends on what you want from the car. Basically all modern cars are larger and heavier than they need to be, even without EV batteries. Then there's range anxiety, which leads to larger than necessary batteries, which also have diminishing returns. You're mostly hauling several hundred kilos of batteries that you may actually never need if you plan your trips.

[jhiggins]

Twenty year old banger?

Suspect his EV won't give him twenty years of service.

[Hartly]

Unless you guys know more about cars than Jim Farley, he doesn't want to give up driving his Chinese EV which was made by a android phone manufacturer. I bet he lives in US just like all of you and suffers from extream cold weather & charging issues. But for all the negativity, he stills prefer a Chinese EV over the Mustang.

[Phil Koenig]

EV Repairs

Wait until Linus finds out how expensive it is to repair that EV of his when he gets into a minor fender-bender.

That could turn the car repair industry into something far bigger than the car industry itself.