Skyscraper-high sewage plume erupts in Moscow There's a literal shitshow erupting in Moscow, where a skyscraper-high plume of sewage has erupted in the Russian capital, just months after Ukrainian hackers hit related systems. Several Russian Telegram channels spilled news of the gut-wrenching geyser this morning, which erupted in the Kommunarka region of Moscow. Video of …
Oh but we have though. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68464798 ("Thames Tideway Tunnel super sewer completed" in case the link doesn't work).
It looks like neither Thames Water nor any of the the other water profiteers has been involved in its construction, but they will reap the benefit of it.
Nationalise the lot of em!
It looks like neither Thames Water nor any of the the other water profiteers has been involved in its construction
From the article you yourself quoted:
the tunnel has ending up costing about £5bn. That cost will be paid for by Thames Water customers over several decades with bills increasing by about £25 a year.
mr-slappy,
Clearly Thames Water have got something to do with it, since they're paying for it. Of course, them not being a charity - they're charging their customers for it.
Nationalise the lot of em!
Be careful what you wish for. It's very fashionable to bash the water companies - because private = evil or something. But if the government weren't in charge, this tunnel might not have ever been built, and the CSO's (combined sewer overflows) from the 19th Century would have stayed in place dumping dirty water into the Thames every time there was heavy rain - as basically most sewer systems were designed.
I joined the industry in 2003 - and was reading about this tunnel in the trade press back then. Thames were campaigning to be able to build it, and the regulator was refusing permission - because that would mean allowing them to raise prices to pay for the investment. The fashionable thing at the time was stopping leaks from mains pipes, so you could get budget to invest in that - and also in sewage treatment (although most of that had been already been authorised in the late 90s. Of course they also got fined for digging up roads - essential for replacing pipes until modern pipe-bursting and re-lining techniques came along.
Notice that the privatised English companies are in the shit for dumping waste water into rivers from CSOs - because Parliament made them fit sensors. But state owned Scottish and Northern Irish (and state-controlled Welsh) water haven't fitted the sensors - so nobody complains. They have the same systems with CSOs, but don't report the problem - so it clearly doesn't exist...
The whole reason they were privatised in the first place was because of catastrophic under-investment by the government. Followed by the government introducing new waste water quality rules at the EU level and then realising they'd have to raise taxes or water rates to pay for it - hence privatising the industry and regulating it. They now have to get approval for their price increases and capital spending in 5 year investment plans from Ofwat and so can only do the work they're authorised to.
Personally I think this is not a bad solution. The government are under much more pressure to spend money on schools 'n' hospitals - where the votes are. And there's fewer votes in non-leaking ppes or clean beaches. So having a hightly-regulated private industry means the government has an incentive to make them clean up their act - but not the disincentive that if it passes those laws, it then has to find the money to pay for it. Which is why the industry was under-regulated and under-invested before the 1991 Water Act - which brought in regulations for the water companies' and their water quality and then the 1999 Water Regulations which came in under the act to control certification of valves, pipes and suchlike as well as safe design and installation. I've got a seminar I can do on this if you've a high boredom threshold and literally nothing else to do for 2 hours...
Government has a pisspoor record of running the water industry since WWII - so I'd suggest that improving regulation of the private industry is probably the better way to go. Also understand that it's complicated. People want low bills, but we have a bunch of old pipework that's slowly being re-lined or replaced. People also don't want all the roads dug up, so you can't allow too much work at once - plus I've worked on jobs in London where the pipes and sewers were built in the 19th Century and nobody knows exactly where they are - you have to go out with ground-mapping radar to find them... There's always going to be a place for CSOs (and hence discharge into rivers during heavy rain), because the alternative design is going to be ludicrously expensive, but now the industry have been forced to fit monitors there's an opportunity to regulate it better. Although the press are much more interested in a witch-hunt.
Some actual government data here
Rivers haven't been cleaner in modern times - and privatisation brought a massive increase in water quality. Except for nitrates. I say privatisation, but clearly the government could have put up water rates and/or taxes and done the investment themselves - but they didn't, and hadn't previously.
BOD is biological oxygen demand - a measure of how much oxygen you'd have to put through the water if you were treating it to get it clean of biological contaminants. The only thing that hasn't improved is nitrates, which I think is mostly run-off from farming direct into the rivers and not through the water system. But then I also thought that was true for phosphates and they've improved - this isn't my area of expertise (which is the Water Regulations) - so it maybe that fertilizer is using less phosphates now, or there's also some phosphates in waste water - there are often polyphosphates in washing/dishwashing detergents.
DanDanDan,
They're investing exactly as much as the government will allow them. Technically it's not the government, because Ofwat are an independent regulator, but the government do set their terms of reference. And as I said in the post above, Thames have been trying to build this tunnel for ages - and they weren't allowed to as it would mean investing too much money - which would mean allowing them to charge more.
Having them as a nationalised company might be the theoretically best option. It's just theory often doesn't work. Because governments can often be even more short-termist than company management.
I'm perfectly willing to accept that the regulators might have got the balance wrong, and allowed the companies to take too much profit. But the levels of investment in the industry since privatisation are massive compared to what the government did, and the renewal of the sewage treatment plants has been transformational - with quite a lot of work done on replacing old pipework too. As is shown in the figures I posted above. And when you see the criticism (including all the jokes in this thread) - people believe it, because they haven't checked the figures. When I did my search to get them, the top result was an environmental campaign group saying our rivers are in the worst state they've ever been - using the campaigning and press stories about the waste water released into rivers. Despite our rivers being the healthiest they've been since the 19th Century. Most of which can be credited to the system we currently have in place. So be careful about changing it, becuase its currently fashionable to say "capitalism bad".
Sewer systems need pumps and thus pressure in some cases. In general, most try to use gravity to do the dirty work. The sewer might generate its own gas and pressure, as well.
I'm told that most of Russia still shits in a hole in the backyard, so maybe this is just another way to make non-Moscow Russia jealous with ostentatious displays of poop.
I think there's still a sewage-gas powered lamp near the Savoy in London and there are still ventilation columns dotted about the place, although I'm not sure how many are still functional. They installed some for the new London super sewer on Victoria Embnkment a couple of years ago.
The small town where I spent my childhood was built mostly in the last 1800s and it had various cast iron columns dotted around to vent off sewer gas well above nose height. No burner on top, they are still there and as far as I know still functional. Stink pipes I think they are called.
Well the alternative (when overloaded or blocked) was to let it flow down the street so I think those victorian engineers knew what they were doing. We may not like it today, but it is working as designed. As in Russia maybe we could have spent a little more time upgrading in recent decades.....
Other alternatives were available. They could have spent the billions they've paid in dividends and bonuses since privatization on new infrastructure to cope with the growing population. It wouldn't have stopped the problem in the short term but they would have been able to put their hands on their hearts and say "we're dealing with it".
exceeded the max BS throughput, and the excess had to be routed through Pravda's headquarters.
And that's The Truth :)
No puns on the chief poobah for life?
Poo t'in Vlad in the air. (Lord of the Shitshower.)
Given the state of US infrastructure I don't think americans can be too smug. The Whitehouse doesn't need such a shitstorm to fill the building with sewerage. Another Trump administration could do that without any assistance whatsoever.
Hehe. I remember a video of some five-year-old giggling uncontrollably at Putin's name—he had a little electronic globe that announced facts about the country you selected, and one was the head of state.
I don't know about the commie states in the Union, but we're doing fine here in Texas. Eighth-largest economy in the world, and all. Wouldn't say the same for Houston, though. Those guys are commies, too.
Also, the White House is currently full of sh*t, and the election won't change that, no matter who wins.
Neither of the three alternatives makes any sense. No way that is any sort of "planned air release". Who releases high pressure air into the sewer system - and that wasn't a bleed of some tank that's a sustained amount of very high pressure to make a 100 ft sewage gusher!
Decaying infrastructure also doesn't make sense, for the same reason. Sewer systems are not under that kind of pressure, and if it was something like a pipe break there might be a brief blowout but not a sustained jet like that. When sewer infrastructure fails you get backups, not spindletop-like blowouts.
While I'd love if Ukraine was somehow responsible, I can't imagine what sort of system would provide for a way to connect something at that high of pressure to a sewer line. Regular water lines are at maybe 100 psi at most, not remotely enough to do that. I suppose maybe some sort of oil pipeline might have sufficient pressure behind it but you can't hook an oil pipeline to a sewer line via computer unless they were already hooked together and controlled by a relay. There's no any sort of circumstance where you'd set something like that up, unless some Ukrainian has been working in Moscow undercover for months setting that up - and it seems like someone would have noticed "hey why are you running this huge pipe from this oil pipeline to the sewer line".
Maybe someday we'll know the true story, but we'll never get the truth out of Russia's media as long as Putin is alive.
Neither of the three alternatives makes any sense. No way that is any sort of "planned air release". Who releases high pressure air into the sewer system - and that wasn't a bleed of some tank that's a sustained amount of very high pressure to make a 100 ft sewage gusher!
El Reg found it on Telegram, so it must be true. Or not.
According to reports on Telegram - which The Register was unable to verify - Moscow's police attributed the column of crap to "a planned air release after pressure testing during the construction of a gas pipeline."
Like you say, the story doesn't make much sents and has a strong eau de bs about it. Sewer lines aren't designed to run at very high pressure. Ancient sewers doubly so. If a convulted chain of shenanigans had somehow arranged for a turbo pump or compressor to be hooked up to a sewer, it would probably have blown out a lot of ma.. personhole covers on the way, not to mention creating unpleasent suprises for anyone dropping a log and there'd be a lot more reports of Muscovites and exploding toilets.
So a rather huge assumption that this has anything to do with sewers, or haxxors. Especially as it just so managed to happen in the middle of a construction site from what appeared to be a vertical pipe. So perhaps it was just flushing & testing that gas pipeline instead. There also looks like something is being constructed to the right of the fountain that might be a pump house.
Maybe someday we'll know the true story, but we'll never get the truth out of Russia's media as long as Putin is alive.
Yep. While he's alive, the 'news' is content to post any old shite about Russia. From a quick google, El Reg is not the the only 'news' site to have picked up this poop and run with it.
DS999,
That's a (quickly counts) 16 storey building next to it. At 3m a storey that gives us 50m or 150' - and the geyser is taller than the building. So maybe 65m or 200'. Which means a pressure of about 6.5 bar or 100psi.
As you say that could do quite a bit of damage to a brick sewer.
Perhaps someone's just drilled an illegal oil well?
Would it be brick?
UK brick sewers often date back to Victorian times - the suggestion here is a system built in the '60's or '70's.
Reinforced concrete rings possibly? Which in turn raises questions as to how degraded the concrete and reinforcement has become, rotation of segments and opening of joints, etc.
Still, as you point out, very high pressures for a sewer, which typically seem to rely upon gravity drainage.
Tideway would have those pressures at the eastern end (Limmo shaft) because it's 70m below ground at that point - but to get a geyser 65m above ground you'd in fact need an excess pressure of 65m - so hydrostatic head in the sewer + 65m.
A failure of a high-pressure water main seems more credible to me - the geyser being a mix of soil and water.
A failure of a high-pressure water main seems more credible to me - the geyser being a mix of soil and water.
Or like the Russians claimed, a high pressure test of a new gas pipeline. Other bits that caught my eye were the way the fountain changes colour and fades to look more like a water column. Also being almost Halloween and in the spirit of spooky coincidences-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goWsVAE-JF0
By popular request, we combined the Practical Construction series into a single video. This was originally released in 2023 in a series of 5 episodes as an experiment in long-duration, on-location production. It was a lot of work, but a ton of fun, and I'm really proud of the result. I hope you enjoy it!
A compiliation video showing how the San Antonio River Authority built a new.. sewage pumping station that covers a lot of the design principles.
Sewer lines would be pressurized if Moscow was forcing 1950s pipes to handle 2024 capacity. Not that much pressure, of course. That's why it's suspected of being a hack.
It also looks like an open vent, not a break. I live in an area with aging water mains and their breaks are never a nice spout like that. Water starts squirting up from cracks in the road and then there's a tsunami of mud racing through the streets.
Ah, the power of thought, driven by imagination. You should try it sometime, it's fun.
Or it leads to sh1t stories like this one. Plus-
We've contacted multiple Ukrainian government offices to learn about the government's possible involvement in the Moscow sewage eruption, but haven't heard back.
Can't think why they haven't responded. Alternatively, El Reg could maybe have contacted this lot-
https://www.sfpuc.gov/
And asked if the sewer line was at all plausible. SF (and LA) have enough problems of their own with aging & overloaded infrastructure. Funniest example was when LA mandated low-flow khazis, then discovered sewers relied on flow. So promptly had to pump thousands of gallons of disinfectant into the sewers because when the sewers blocked, Califorians discoved their sh1t does stink.
At lease Putin's golden shower did not cause the road to explode.
Article reads:
Money needed to repair them, we note, would likely be easier to come by if the country wasn't facing an economic blockade due to its invasion of Ukraine in early 2022.
It's not the blockade, it's the priorities. If they hadn't invaded Ukraine maybe they'd have money to fix their shithole of a country. Poo-tin is gallivanting at his BRICS event blaming the west for everything that's wrong with his country, yet the worst thing to hit russia in the past 20 years was poo-tin himself. The fountain, I am sure, is in his honor.
Legend has it that some of the mech eng lads (always lads in those days) at my then-polytechnic worked out that if everyone flushed the loos on each floor of the halls, starting with the top floor and timed correctly, they'd create a jet of pressurised water. Apparently the blast sent a manhole cover many yards into the air.
Maybe the Ukranian resistance techies pulled a sort of similar stunt.
It's not unknown for water to get into gas pipes - residents of Sheffield in Dec 2022 found water coming out of their gas stoves and heating after a water main burst. I always thought the point of gas pipes was to keep the stuff in between the North Sea and your hob, so how the water managed to find its way into the gas pipes I don't know.
I suspect this Russian geysir is just them blowing out the rusty/muddy water left after construction.
I would have done nothing but ensure a back door into the system, in as many of these systems as I could access in Russia.
At least, until Putin's birthday.
At 8AM on Putin's birthday, every single sewage plant I could access would be geysering shit until it ran out.
Assuming it was Ukrainian hackers, of course.
There are many instances of "maybe," "probably," "unable to verify," "another possibility is," and "could be" throughout this article, which in essence talks about nothing. Despite substantial events occurring around the world, someone at The Register still managed to fill a whole article with speculation.
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