Floppy discs still run a U.S. metro? Japan steps in with 'project kill floppy'

San Francisco's Muni Metro could be finally getting ready to wave goodbye to the antiquated and archaic floppy disk-based train control system. Yes, we're talking about the good old 5.25-inch floppy disk, which is somehow still being utilized for something as important as a critical function of a public transport network …

[martinusher]

Typical Theater

The article about this yesterday mentioned that three disks were used to load a control program onto a MS-DOS based system, the control system maintaining safe spacing of MUNI trams inside the tunnel. This system is to be replaced by a Hitachi train control system controlling the entire network at the bargain (?) price of $200 million plus.

Replacing a floppy drive is a no-brainer. It might be a bit fiddly in a very old MS-DOS based system because of the lack of USB support but this is San Francisco, right?** There should be no shortage of local talent to figure this out. MS-DOS might be a bit old but its only acting as a loader and at least we know that its bug-free. I suppose sales people couldn't conceive of a Raspberry Pi Zero control system (equal to half a dozen or more vintage PCs), they have to get something that's over designed -- and likely overpriced -- for the job.

(**An interim solution that would be really easy to implement would be to replace the 5.25" drive with a 3.5" one. It will just plug in. One of these disks will carry the three disks' worth of data.)

[J.G.Harston]

Re: Typical Theater

Or a Gotek. "Looks like" a floppy disk drive to the controller, of any geometry. Holds as many images as you can wave a stuff on a USB stick.

[Orv]

Re: Typical Theater

My understanding is that the $200 million also includes maintenance of the control system for ten years, which makes it less outrageous.

Cobbling things together with Raspberry Pis and other hobbyist gear is not something you do with systems that are life safety critical. Anything used for rail signaling has to be failsafe*, which is one reason why these systems tend to be technologically a bit behind. (Just switching from relay logic using failsafe "vital signal" relays to PLCs took a long time.)

* "Failsafe" in this case being literal -- it's not that it can't fail, it's that it has to predictably fail in the safest condition, which usually means stopping the trains. A trivial example is the old semaphore signals, which were weighted such that a broken operating rod would cause the signal to fall into the "danger" position.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Typical Theater

Industrially 'hardened' computers rarely are anything special. Stuxnet targeting a specific PLC only had to go for Windows and X86...

The clever stuff is in the architecture rather than the individual devices.

And I've lost count of the number of pi pico cored industrial devices out there.

[Orv]

Re: Typical Theater

That's true, but there's more to it than buying a Pi off the shelf and slapping it in there.

[Clausewitz4.0]

Re: Typical Theater

"Industrially 'hardened' computers rarely are anything special."

Agree. A friend of a friend has a raspberry pi running flawlessly since 2015.

[entfe001]

Re: Typical Theater

One thing is a device which should or must not fail, because if so puts real lives in danger (for example, anything related with aeronautics, either planes themselves or air traffic control), and another one that, in case it fails, brings down everything in a controlled manner so any potential life-threatening risks are cancelled. This is the case of the railway industry where, excluding exceptional circumstances like a fire in a tunnel, a stopped train will not pose any danger to anyone or anything and is an acceptable result; a plane stopping mid-air is a huge no-no.

This notwithstanding the need to avoid failures: here in Barcelona we had some memorable rail traffic control failures that completely grind to a halt the whole wide gauge network, one of them because a hard disk failed and there was no RAID configuration. That was a huge chaos, but no lives where in danger... other than the IT responsible for the crashed machine

[O'Reg Inalsin]

Re: Typical Theater

Or the "Dead Man's Brake" -- Another frequently ignored safety regulation mentioned in the report was the "deadman's pedal", which a locomotive engineer had to keep depressed for the train to remain underway. Were he to fall asleep or pass out, his foot would slip from the pedal, triggering an alarm and engaging the train's brakes automatically a few seconds later. However, many engineers found this tiresome and bypassed the pedal by placing a heavy weight (often a worn out brake shoe) on it. [Hinton train collision]

[entfe001]

Re: Typical Theater

Actually, a proper dead man's brake will require for the pedal to be periodically lifted and depressed again, to detect the cases where a fainted driver keeps the pedal down or it being deliberately depressed using a weight to avoid the annoyance; the quote exposes the reason

The frequency of this operation also varies depending on the rail network according to potential risk, ranging typically from a minute or two for intercity trains to less than 10 seconds for tramways

[EricB123]

Re: Typical Theater

Why not upgrade to those IOMega zip drives? Lots more storage, not to mention IOMega's legendary reputation for dependability.

[James O'Shea]

Feh. The youth of today

The youngsters in San Francisco need to get off my lawn. Why, it was just a few years ago that the mighty United States Air Farce.. ah, that is, 'Air Force' was finally forced to retire 8-inch floppies for no particularly good reason other than it was getting hard to source spares. Bah, humbug. https://www.extremetech.com/defense/300543-after-decades-the-air-force-retires-8-inch-floppies-from-missile-control-systems Several electric utilities in the Caribbean, especially including the Jamaica Public Service Company, Ltd., have finally put to rest their old British-built oil-fired mechanical analog controlled steam turbo-generators, some as newly built as 1951, merely because the companies which built them have been out of business for two to four decades and the only place where you could get parts was JPSCo's workshop, and the last of the old workshop men there who knew the arcane art of keeping 1950s British steam tech alive are about to retire. 1998? That stuff is still new! It just needs to be buffed up a bit.

No respect for age and tradition. None at all. I despair for the future.

(Why, yes, I do still have late 1990s computer equipment; among other items, a beige PowerMac G3 and a Compaq Presario. The G3 has a 3.5" floppy drive that still works, as of earlier this year and a Zip drive which doesn't work and hasn't for years; the Compaq has both a 3.5 and a 5.25, but I'm not sure if they work. Respect the elderly!)

[Strahd Ivarius]

Re: Feh. The youth of today

Don't worry, the new system is using the latest Japanese technology, the 3" 1/2 hard diskette.

Unfortunately, no fax was available for communication between systems.

[jake]

Re: Feh. The youth of today

"'Air Force' was finally forced to retire 8-inch floppies for no particularly good reason other than it was getting hard to source spares."

Not really "forced", per se. It was just time to upgrade. IBM still has warehouse shelves full of NOS spares. I've seen 'em with my own eyes. On four continents ... and I have been assured that they also exist on two more. (My friends in the USGS tell me that the bits of kit that still use them in Antarctica are not going to run out of spares any time soon.)

_{IBM's kinda spendy, though ... try fleabay first.}

[J.G.Harston]

5.25" disks.... in 1998???? I was using 3.5" disks in 1985.

[Version 1.0]

Oh tiny little disks ... my 8 inch drives still work fine. If you think that's a rubbish comment then try buying a MITS ALTAIR 8" drive on EBay.

[Orv]

Given the scope of the project and government contract rules, I would be willing to bet the specs were written no later than 1988.

[mark l 2]

Exactly what i was thinking, I was surprised that they were still installing 5.25" drives as late as 1998 as they were already obsolete even then.

My first computer that used floppies rather than cassettes was an Amiga 500 in the late 80s and that had 3.5 inch floppy drives as standard from its release in 1987.

.

[_olli]

From what I recall from the Windows 95 or even the Windows 3.1 era, it wasn't necessary to physically load software from floppies any more each morning: it was necessary to reinstall the operating system from floppies only once per month, with some luck sometimes even more rarely. For daily operation there were those humming and ticking scifi boxes inside the computers back then, they were called as lard disk or tard disk or something like that.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Modern" sounds great. Sure, let's get rid of the slow and old induction loops and replace them with cellular networks. That's great until you have your first cellular outage that ties up all the trains. It gets even worse when the cell company discontinues support for the cell standard.

[Orv]

In most US cities just getting a large crowd of people together in one place is enough to crash the cell network. Stadiums here often have WiFi because 50,000 people in one place is more than cell phones can cope with.

[Anonymous Coward]

The cell phones can cope with 50 000 people at the same place, unless it is in a sardine can.

The cellular network, on the other hand...

[Anonymous Coward]

"That's great until you have your first cellular outage"

Or a jamming truck park nearby the train station control center, or a 0day is found for the new hyper-connected system.

New systems, new problems...

Anon, bcz original poster was anon as well.

[My other car WAS an IAV Stryker]

I don't mind a stable DOS system.

Scene: a US high school, opened on 6 Jan 1996, freshly built with all new networks and shiny computers in the main lab running Windows 95, plus a handful of Macs. Yet one computer in the main office was still running only DOS [1], and had to have 24/7 uptime... because it ran the fancy 16 X 80 incandescent Daktronics sign out front, the first for any school in the district.

Said sign turned lots of 'leccy into lots of heat, plus sufficient light to be distracting to the commuters headed for the nearest major metro (almost blinding at night). It wasn't the best Big D had to offer, but on the district's budget it was the best they could do. And the master software [2] ran in DOS -- I personally ran it my senior year (12th grade). I could manually run sequences or load a full month's worth (or more) into the schedule, including on/bright/dim/off commands. So while the sign was off, the DOS box still had to run all night to wake it up again in the morning and command the appropriate sequence(s) for the next day.

It mostly ran on a (small) hard drive, but it did have a 3-1/2" drive (not 5-1/4), and loaded other software just to see what the machine could handle... without messing up the current operations. [3]

Good times...

[1. Admittedly not actually that out of date, yet. If it's still there now, that would be a different story, but I assume they've upgrading the sign and the computer since then, probably full-color, full-video LED.]

[2. Actual sign ops were in a separate box screwed to the wall, connected by serial. This ran only the current sequence from its own memory and needed the PC to give it the next instruction/sequence.]

[3. Because of #2, the PC *was* allowed to reboot -- and the control software called up from autoexec.bat -- but you had to manually reload the Scheduler. This was definitely NOT preferred and usually only happened if power was lost, in which case the sign rebooted blank, which was (marginally) better than some default pattern or re-running something out-of-date.]

[chivo243]

In San Fran

Of all places! Now, say some place like Gary, Indiana, and all is forgiven.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hey, it's MUNI

To be fair, how many times do you think the various layers of local bureaucracy were told by City Hall (or whoever) that there was no money to upgrade the IT, because the trains were just about running, so it must be working OK?

Historically railways have tended to keep rolling stock for four, five, six or more decades, and the same parsimony by the purse-string holders often extends to infrastructure and IT.

This approach will of course not work in future, because they won't be permitted to run trains whose controls involve unsupported software, and the complex control and sensor systems of modern trains will be subject to far quicker parts obsolescence than older stuff you could fix with a hammer. Case in point, Britain's railways scrapped most of their class 321 units at about the same time they scrapped their final class 483 units. The difference being that the class 321 was about 42 years old, the class 483 was 83 years old.

A/C because no one wants to be labelled a closet train spotter.

[ComicalEngineer]

Re: Hey, it's MUNI

For info, the 483s were extensively refurbished in the late 80s / early 90s.

Many EMUs have had working lives of 40+ years (Class 502s and 507s on Merseyrail,several Southern electrics especially the 404s). They have had long lives because they are simple, reliable, easy to maintain and robust.

Many of these have only been scrapped due to disability access requirements.

Just saying.

[Yankee Doodle Doofus]

< "It's unlikely the floppy disks won't just vanish overnight. ... In fact, the whole upgrade could even drag on for the better part of a decade​."

How about some proofreading? This looks like something I'd post on social media after composing and then editing it on my phone while half awake.

[Anonymous Coward]

idiot geography lessons

"London, England" and "Vancouver, Canada". Who knew? Explaining where these cities are was vital to understanding this story. It would have been so different if it was the Vancouver in Russia that was using floppy disks in its metro.

[katrinab]

Re: idiot geography lessons

Well we wouldn’t want to confuse it with Fake London where the public transport is pretty much non-existent.

[tin 2]

I don't get it.

If it's working. Leave it. Just cos it's old doesn't mean it's shit.

Sounds like there's several other problems that need attention first.

[IGotOut]

Re: I don't get it.

I guess you didn't read the article?

Go back. Try again

[Anonymous Coward]

Predictions: It will end up costing 800 million, be 15 years late, and won't work properly.

[jake]

"Predictions: It will end up costing 2.4 billion because a "housing the homeless" initiative will be tied to it, be 25 years late (see: homeless), won't work properly, and will be scrapped for something new and shiny less than five years after going live, when all the "homeless" money has been sucked dry."

FTFY

[jake]

There is obsolete, and then there is obsolete.

I do an annual cleaning & adjusting (if needed) of a couple of 8" floppy drives that have been in near daily use since the late 1970s. They are attached to a couple pieces of equipment at a machine shop located in SillyConValley. I've replaced the read/write heads, the motors and other parts[0] a couple times each with NOS[1] parts that I squirreled away in the '90s .... sometimes being a packrat helps pay the bills.

[0] We started calling them "Theseus's Floppy Drives over two decades ago.

[1] New Old Stock ... brand new original box product that's been on the shelf for a while.

[Cynical Pie]

Re: There is obsolete, and then there is obsolete.

Ah the 'Trigger's Broom' school of maintenance :)

[Flash_Penguin]

FUD is strong here

The implication that $200 odd million is going to be used to replace JUST the floppies is a bit strong, as is the emphasis on Hitachi Rail being Japanaese.

Hitachi Rail took over Ansaldo STS Signalling operations in 2015, who had taken over Union Switch and Signal in 1988.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Switch_%26_Signal

So this contract is for the American based part of Hitachi ex USS at Pittsburgh, to deliver a new train control system.

Signalling systems at the trackside generally have a lifespan of around 40 years, with control systems a typical lifespan of 20 years.

Which makes any update a "Generational" one, and with the system and safety assurance certification requirements also mean the technology and OS are usually an "IT" generation behind before being put into operational service.

So this update is timely, maybe a little late on those measures but not out of place for the value and time of service expected from a new signalling system.

[[e-mail]]

Actually the 5.25" floppy disk was obsolete by 1985 or so, when the 3.5" floppy took over.

But loading floppies onto hard drives is trivial.

Should not have cost much at all.

A rail signaling system should not be hard or expensive.

[jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid]

"A rail signaling system should not be hard or expensive"

But it does need to be high quality (or trains will crash and people will die), which means it will be hard and/or expensive.

[Anonymous Coward]

PS3

Train Sim 2

Job done!

[Lee D]

It would literally be cheaper to buy / invent / produce some 5.25" compatible drives that use an SD card / hard drive / SSD / network connection for floppy image storage.

I'm surprised that they haven't just done that and bought themselves another 40 years until they start to fail or SD cards etc. are obsolete.

I know you can already get them for 3.5" floppies because even 20-something years ago those were popular for things like MIDI keyboards that needed whatever it is that MIDI keyboards have loaded into them.

[jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid]

Floppy disks

I'm not normally one for security by obscurity, but I am wondering if using such ancient tech is a cyber risk or benefit.

[BenMyers]

What? 5.25" floppys

Why didn't these people use 3.5" floppies, newer and more reliable? Or use FreeDOS, giving them access to USB? How stinking old are the motherboards for these computers? Many questions raised about total IT incompetence in San Francisco.

[Mike 125]

Jeez. The conflation here of, and confusion between, technology on the one hand, and intrinsically safe design on the other, boggles the mind.

No wonder we're in such a mess.

'Elisha Graves Otis introduced the first safety passenger elevator at the Crystal Palace Convention in New York City. His invention impressed spectators at the convention, and the first passenger elevator was installed in New York City in 1856.'

That's called intrinsically safe design. And that's all that matters in such an application. It worked then and it would work now. Nobody gives a fuck about the technology- as long as it is safe.

[Grinning Bandicoot]

MBA at work

Given the number of suggestions here plus a dim memory of the trolley system I wonder if an ambitious sort was behind the 'upgrade'. Just think how it would look on the CV as "directed the upgrade of the SF muni". Since a minimum of two repeaters with associated cabling if the cell system is used and a right-of-way exists the first question is why cell not glass if that much additional data is to be sent? The second question is the car locator system and this is where the cost over runs start to appear. Both systems must operate together during transition so which to trust question becomes foremost, then how to remove cars fro servie for the upgrade when usage is at 102 percent. Its subsistence economics and any diversion of cars will cause love and discontent. The hotshot who stated the mess will have moved on so it won't be a problem (yeah)!

[JohnGrantNineTiles]

Culture mismatch

Trouble is, the rail industry likes stuff to go on working for several decades, preferably centuries, partly because the process of choosing a replacement, verifying it meets all the safety etc requirements, installing, and then switching over is so disruptive and expensive.

Whereas the IT industry considers stuff should be stripped out and replaced by the latest whizzy thing (with its own new set of bugs) several times a year.