Ford CEO admits he drives a Chinese electric vehicle and doesn't want to give it up Jim Farley, CEO of Ford, has made a surprising confession - he has been driving a Chinese-made electric vehicle, and he loves it. "I don't like talking about the competition so much, but I drive the Xiaomi," he said in the Everything Electric Show. "We flew one from Shanghai to Chicago, and I've been driving it for six months …
Love it !!!
Of course we know this is the numbers game being played.
When you want to talk up the opposition, which you hope to match, it sounds better to say 1000 km rather than 621 miles.
The real problem is that the use of ANY fossil fuel is going to be frowned upon and you will pay a larger & larger premium as time passes.
Battery technology is still not there and people in the trade still don't want to have an EV or even service an EV because the skills are in short supply and costs are high for those skills. I have been told, on the quiet, that they are not reliable and too costly to maintain.
I will use ICE based vehicles until they get too costly to run.
Wake me when the Battery technology get the boost it needs by some NEW tech that makes EV's cheaper, more reliable and have a decent range.
:)
We hit -stupid C temps in Alberta this winter, the provincial government was forced to send an alert out requesting the cutting down of electrical power usage wherever possible (That included charging EV's, running block heaters etc) otherwise rolling power cuts would have to be brought into play.
Fortunately the crisis of demand passed as people actually took heed & did as requested.
It was total BS. A couple of charging stations froze, and a few YouTubers tried to deliberately get cars to -20C (a temperature where any type of car fluids would freeze).
-20C is -4F, a not uncommon temperature in Chicago and environs. When it got to -26F one frigid January, the only car running among my acquaintances was a twenty year old VW Beetle. Not sure whether running it on essentially frozen lubrication did the engine any harm, but those little beasts could survive tremendous abuse and cheerfully "beetle on". Since electrons don't freeze, I expect an EV will always start, but the mechanical parts like axles may be hurting for lack of lubrication.
It ain't the electrons, it's the batteries. Their chemistry just doesn't like getting that cold (hmm so maybe it is the electrons). The batteries still work, but drain much faster and don't hold charge as well. It's like having 30% less capacity.
The reason the Beetle run while other cars didn't is probably because they're air cooled, not water cooled. Don't need a block heater or antifreeze, because there's no coolant to freeze. Oil would be pretty gloopy to start with, but would soon warm up and flow freely. Petrol doesn't go waxy like diesel at those temperatures, to the engire will run ok.
Mostly there would just be a bit more delay between starting the engine and getting full oil circulation.
Yeah, well, -35C to -40C is far from uncommon here in Saskatchewan, Canada, and the distance you can travel as a result (especially as you need the heater) becomes absolutely abysmal with EVs.
A far better suited technology for the midwestern parts of Canada and the US (and far north especially, like the Yukon and Alaska) are HEVs or HIC powered vehicles.
Hydrogen all the way, whether electric/fuel cell or internal combustion are the only way those parts of the world can get off fossil fuels at this time. Hydrogen also provides the energy density that would be required for heavy equipment like combines, tractors, and mining equipment.
The problem with EV reliability is they're fine, until they aren't.
When they break, you get to keep both pieces.
No one can fix them, including the dealership.
For example, my Energica just refused to even turn on 07-JUN-24. I hauled it in and it was a HV power supply. The dealer doesn't have a high voltage tech, so apparently it needs to be sent to a repair depot in New England somewhere, and the dealer & manufacturer have been arguing about that ever since, to the point I now have a lawyer involved.
A friend had a Zero die, and I discovered it was the CANBUS transceiver in the extended range optional battery stepping on things. If you disconnected the battery and put a CANBUS terminator there, it was fine. It took 9 months and the bike took 2 trips from Florida to California to get it fixed, until they said "guess what! the CANBUS transceiver in the extended range optional battery is bad!!!111oneone" and I resent my original letter stating that was what I thought was wrong. However the second one they gave him has been flawless for a couple years.
Another friend had a BMW i3 and BMW did not want to admit it had a problem. It was all the owner's fault, which I gather is typical BMW behaviour.
Agreed. The TCO of modern cars (particularly EVs) is less predictable as it used to be.
A while back I had a brake issue in my first-gen Leaf, relating to the booster. Lost brake power assist while driving and while manageable, it was not a fun experience. Brake booster replacement job was quoted at about half the value of the car due primarily due to the complexity and cost of the part. To do the same job on my ancient ICE Subaru (were it even necessary) would have been about 15% of the cost as it was a simple vacuum-driven design instead of containing loads of complex electronics. In a worst-case scenario I could replace both the entire engine and transmission (admittedly with good used parts) in the Subaru for the same cost as the brake booster job on the Leaf. Fortunately that has not been necessary and it still runs fine to this day.
I do believe that EVs are generally reliable. But when they do fail, better to be ready to write the car off even for things that were once easy and inexpensive to repair.
Oh, and don't get me started on the cost of insurance between the two cars. The Subaru's annual cost for both insurance and servicing (inc. oil/fluid changes) is less than the insurance alone on the Leaf. This is despite them both being worth a similar (low) value.
A survey based on 1 person is not the most reliable !!!
This is the regular response given by someone who is able to work within the limitations of EV's and the available infrastructure.
Your personal circumstances are *NOT* the same as mine or many thousands/millions of others.
Don't assume that you represent anyone other than yourself.
My daily milage needs are Hundreds of miles on Motorways/Freeways.
I cannot afford to be waiting for hours recharging at charging stations unless I increase my working day by multiple hours *and* demand that my customers extend their day also to allow for my extended working day.
Batteries *ARE* impacted by high/low temperatures & higher speeds drain the batteries quicker, so ranges calculated in a lab are not realworld ranges.
Note: That the ranges quoted by Manufacturers are *calculated* and not actually reached in real driving tests.
Battery tech *is* in need of some improvement, the useful lifetime of the batteries at the moment are approx 3 years before you get a measurable reduction in the max charge and the consequental range reduction.
Additionally, Fast charging to reduce waiting time etc will also have a knock-on impact on the battery life and max charge reachable.
This is not hyperbole *BUT* basic Physics/Chemistry in action.
These are the things that Battery Technology needs to improve ... hence the "Battery technology is still not there" comment.
P.S.
Almost forgot, typical issues that garages are having to deal with are some cells in the batteries failing which is forcing the EV to go into 'limp' mode or stop working all together. The individual cells cannot fixed by the garage and the whole Battery needs to be replaced which is not trivial.
Most garages will *not* have spare batteries ready for replacement or the equpment/skills to do the work quickly if at all !!!
This is an example of real issues that garages are having to deal with ... now !!!
:)
It may be a 'You' problem ... *BUT* I am not unique and if EV's cannot solve this problem for me I believe there are a lot of others having a very similar 'You' problem.
The world has been arranged around regular travel over hundreds of miles for many thousands of people each day ... by car.
Unless you can arrange for everyone to get *new* jobs that are within 30 miles of their home and customers just as close, EV's will have to improve/adapt !!!
Saying 'it works for me' is somewhat shortsighted as 'you' are in the minority, unless all the traffic on the roads is just there to spoil *my* day !!!
:)
You are not unique, but then, neither are the people who can use EVs with no problem. I've had one for a few months now, it's bloody brilliant. Ridiculously fast (0-60 3.8s) and costs bugger all to run. I do have off-street parking, and a home charger, but usually charge at work (Free!!!). My 60 mile round trip commute is easy, the gadgets mean it's a relaxing trip in as the car follows the one in front.
The car has a 7-year warranty including the battery, so far no real issues (It keep forgetting my phone - needs a SW upgrade)
It's Chinese (but I think designed in the UK?)
So, what I am saying is, yes, there are loads of people (although a reducing number) for whom an EV might not be an option, but the corollary is that there are also many many people for whom an EV is an excellent option.
You have very conveniently highlighted the factors that must come together to make the *current* EV's an excellent fit.
[I have upvoted you for this]
1. Short commute.
2. Cheap/Free charging at work.
3. Off-road parking
4. Home Charger (goes with point 3.)
5. Cheap to run due to (1., 2. & 4.)
6. No need to travel much more than your short commute daily (Infered by 1. 2.)
7. Can afford the cost of an EV.
Well done, it meets your needs very well, BUT are you typical of the thousands/millions of road users ???
I am unsure if the majority of road users match all these criteria and therefore what do the rest do when EV's are being forced on us all.
:)
The poor people who can't afford a property with offroad parking will of course be expected to use oh-so-reliable public transport, and put up with the increased travel times, unreliability, overcrowding, and general misery that often goes hand in hand with public transport.
The primary goal of forcing EVs seems to be to reduce the amount of traffic on the roads.
[Icon = only slightly trolling on this. EVs are not a singular solution to everyone's private transport needs, but they're being pushed hard as though they are ]
People shoudl be demanding that employers pay for their commuting so they are forced to make more reasonable work arrangements.
Governments are wasting billions of tax payer dollars to support commuting....and the destruction of the environment... just ask the people of valencia.
I suspect he has an MG4 EV (it's the warranty that gives it away), which is not the most expensive of EVs. It is a Chinese design, but as is normal with the 'new' MG, they do a European styling exercise during the design.
Won What Car of the year 2024, so looks quite a good buy. Base model is around £27,000.
The only negative I've heard is that once it's tricked out with all the options, like extended range, it's close to the price of a Tesla Model 3, and the dealer and spares network needs to improve.
You can get base models for considerably less than that now, including the long-range one. There aren't many options, I think mostly just the 'Trophy' (oh, and different paint colours ;-) ), and that's only a few grand so nowhere near a Tesla Model 3. Though the 0-60 of 3.8s means they have an X-Power which is a bit more.
Other than parts and dealers there aren't many negatives, but it is a cheap car (correction, cheap *for an EV*) so there are some niggles. By far the most common is the lane-keeping-assist which is fine on large well-marked roads but poor on small ones. It's still good for the cash which is why it was the second-best selling EV in the UK last year.
The world has been arranged around regular travel over hundreds of miles for many thousands of people each day ... by car.
Where are you based? Because in the UK at least the average journey is less than 20 miles. It will be higher in a larger country like the USA of course. Apparently about 30 miles in fact.
So the UK and the US at least have not been arranged long distance daily travel by car. In fact the idea is a rather silly one. Only taxi drivers are paid to spend many hours driving a car. Everyone else has to get out at some point and do something else in order to be paid.
If my driving was mutliple hundreds a day, ev is not my choice of car, maybe a hybrid. If mainly motorway driving I would want to consider diesel, but having been stung by a ULEZ recently, I doubt I would choose diesel again.
I have an EV based on my current driving patterns and usage and is fine, and in the exception of a long journey, a fast charger is great, but they are exceptions and I can live with that.
> As someone who’s driven electric for almost 5 years I find comments like “ Battery technology is still not there” genuinely funny.
As someone that's that's driven electric since 2014, battery tech is still not there. But it's better than what we used to have.
Actually, it's the electronics surrounding the battery that's the weakest link. It's fragile and prone to failure.
“Battery technology” covers a wide range of issues, which may or may not impinge on your lifestyle..
Interesting article:
I drove an electric car over 3,000 miles in three months. It tested my sanity
[original article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/hybrid-electric-cars/electric-car-mileage-challenge/ ]
Toyota sell hybrids in the USA and their HSD is not overly complex. In fact it's simpler mechanically than most other ICE transmissions since there is no gearbox nor a starter motor. The ECU programming will be a bit more complex but that's all.
Plus after more than two decades (approaching its third decade on the streets) their HSD is thoroughly proven technology.
I'd argue the point on the HSD not being complex. If you want low complexity the original Honda IMA fit that perfectly. Turn the flywheel into the motor/generator unit. If there is a hybrid issue on the HSD the car can't move. With the IMA system the car drives like a normal car. Manual gearboxes are well proven technology and not overly complex, except for the small input bearing and the strange double synchro honda decided to use on the early IMA cars.....
> We'll see what Ford comes up with
We have already seen what Ford will come up with. Didn't they just get out of the smaller car sector to exclusively make tanks with enormous wheels weighing 2 tons because apparently that's what Americans want to buy? How did that go?
No manufacturer in the US wants to make affordable cars any more. They are obsessed with online services, fill their vehicles with thousands of dollars of equipment that few people want, and *certainly* don't want to pay for.
American auto companies had stopped making lower priced cars and focused on expensive ones for several reasons. One reason was the chip shortage meant that production was limited by parts availability, and so they focused on high end models with high profit margins. The other main reason was that very low interest rates, virtually zero, meant that finance costs were very low.
Both effects have gone away, and auto industry news is talking about the panic in Ford, GM, Stellantis (Chrysler), etc. that they don't have low cost models to sell.
Average selling prices of new and used cars are falling in the US. The analysis of the situation being talked about by auto industry analysts is that the people can afford and want an expensive car already have one, and the ones who either can't afford an expensive, or can afford it but aren't interesting in spending their money on a car, are holding off buying, and when they do buy, they buy the cheapest one they can find. The result is that storage lots are full of expensive cars that can only be unloaded at deep discounts.
General opinion seems to be that the auto makers need to offer low cost cars if they want to stay in the mass market. That means smaller, simpler cars without a lot of the useless crap which drives up the price.
The Chinese are already selling cars like that, in both electric and non-electric models. The danger for the American makers is that Chinese companies will gobble up the global market outside of a protected American bastion, leaving the American industry like the British auto industry of the late 20th century.
The American companies know this, and they also know that the people who dismiss the Chinese auto makers are like the ones who did the same with respect to the Japanese in the 1970s. The head of Ford knows this. The people who don't know it are people who are living in the past, just like 50 years ago with the Japanese.
"because apparently that's what Americans want to buy?"
It seems more like "that's what they want to sell" more than a case of "people" demanding something. Either that or they've done an amazing job at convincing people they need to finance cars for 6-8 years at a fancy interest rate with such massive depreciation that at no point during the first 80% of that period to be able to sell the car for what's owed.
Most of the geegaws that are on cars now are cheap to produce (low quality and difficult to repair/replace down the road) but can be claimed to have all sorts of "value". It sort of sucks when water gets in through the sun roof and causes CanBus problems that won't allow the transmission to shift properly.
Did nobody notice this?
Yes, the Chinese EVs are cheaper that locally-produced ones. But the high cost of raw materials for local manufacture are a product of the export restrictions for raw materials by China. The low cost of manufacture in China is a result of the artificially-low currency value, and the cheap energy you get from Co2 emitting generation. And, then there are the actual subsidies.
So whilst I'm sure Ford can do a darned good try at making "affordable" EVs, they don't stand a chance against the loaded scales that is the global EV market.
"And, then there are the actual subsidies."
There isn't the same regulatory agencies to deal with either. Sometimes there will be several agencies with mandates for one thing that have to be complied with and they all have different reporting requirements. All of that compliance costs money to show that the air coming out of the paint shop is cleaner than the air going in.
" But the high cost of raw materials for local manufacture are a product of the export restrictions for raw materials by China. "
China takes a proactive role in domestic manufacturing. The government will go to a mine owner in South America and contract to buy all of their output for a period of time and also make an investment in machinery so the mine can increase output (no doubt the machines will come from China). The materials then become available for Chinese companies to purchase at cost and at a price that would be reserved for the largest of buyers. Two things happen, the material isn't available on the open market and the Chinese manufacturers save loads of money. It can also mean that the South American mining company winds up with the means to buy new mining rights and build their business to be able to provide even more. Other governments such as in the US can be much more adversarial and even openly hostile towards business. One city I had a facility based part of the business license (tax with no benefits) on how many employees there were, how many principal people in management and several other things until the cost was quite expensive. The city was mainly a s-hole with the vast majority of the population unable to speak English and many not being able to read/write in their native language. When my lease expired, I was out of there. Other cities had their own nonsensical ordinances.
Alternatively, Chinese industry moves the way Western industry used to: they spend many years improving products that people want to buy making them at sensible cost. And not having MBA w**kers spending all day d**king around with power point, sacrificing the future of their companies for this quarter's figures/bonus by deskilling, slash an burn. Then whinging about "unfair competition" when someone else takes a longer term view than they have.
"I3 REX which is, I believe, no longer available."
Perhaps not. That could be more to do with people not understanding the design. The petrol engine was only an extender and one couldn't drive forever without running out of leccy. I thought it was a great compromise to offer a level of range greater than pure electric without going into full-blown hybrid.
Current London Taxis. (and a van made by the same company built on the same powertrain)
Oh, and there is / was a Ford Transit van like that with an engine / generator electric motor setup, although I don't think it has ever been available as a passenger variant.
Check out the Honda Accord Hybrid and Civic Hybrid. The Toyota Camry Hybrid is also an option.
We have the new Accord Hybrid and it's astonishingly good, bonus points for having a manual pure EV mode option.
Ours was built at Honda's facility in Marysville, Ohio, USA.
"it has a small internal combustion engine that powers the batteries. One tank of gas gives a range of up to 1,000 to 1,200 kilometers."
This is really nothing new at all.
Like a couple of you have pointed out, there are quite a few of non-chinese brand cars that do this.
All Honda hybrids are the same I believe, not just the Accord. The hybrid Jazz/Fit certainly uses the petrol engine as a generator to charge the battery.
Also quoting range of a vehicle without also quoting the efficiency is useless.
Sure it can go 1000km, but what is the actual mpg or km/l?
It reminds me of an advert several years ago when Toyota brought out a new Land cruiser Prado model.
It advertised a range of 1200km as standard, which was amazing for a big 4x4.
What the stats didn't show was it had a 180 litre fuel tank, so the mpg was just a rubbish as all the other big 4x4s but this one made your eyes water a bit more when you filled the tank and saw the total price on the pump.
Nope, the Hondas are nothing like that.
Chevy Volt and BMW i3 range extender are pretty much it for what we've seen before. Honda uses parallel hybrid eCVT transaxles. The engine can directly power the wheels, and does much of the time. There's nothing wrong with that approach for a hybrid, my Ford does it. But it's not the same thing as a car designed to be an electric car with an engine that's only coupled to a generator and only kicks in when the battery is mostly depleted.
"The hybrid Jazz/Fit certainly uses the petrol engine as a generator to charge the battery."
Using petrol to charge the battery is expensive compared to very similar electrons being sourced from the grid. It can be fine to add range of an EV so there's a reasonable amount of drive time on a longer trip before stopping for charging (visit to the loo, a meal, etc) but it doesn't make sense for that range extender to keep charging unless called on due to a lack to EV charging.
Beyond a range extender is how the Volt managed power as a default. You'd use the battery until that was run down to a certain point and then the ICE would take over with regen putting some back in the battery. I can't recall if the engine would charge the battery during brief stops until it was back up to a certain point.
I think a lot of people can't be bothered to analyze their driving so want a hybrid to continue not analyzing their needs. By looking at mine, I can see I'm a very good candidate for a BEV. Not that I'd sell my ICEV if I got one. It's too good of a car and wouldn't sell for enough to not keep it around.
Using petrol to charge the battery is expensive compared to very similar electrons being sourced from the grid. It can be fine to add range of an EV so there's a reasonable amount of drive time on a longer trip before stopping for charging (visit to the loo, a meal, etc) but it doesn't make sense for that range extender to keep charging unless called on due to a lack to EV charging.
This probably explains why the original poster's idea isn't popular. The battery in a standard hybrid isn't there to power the vehicle. It's there to help keep the ICE operating in it's most efficient range. Electric power is mainly supplementary. For example whilst Toyota's HSD can move the vehicle solely on electric power most of the time the battery is just helping the engine out so that it can stay at its most efficient as long as possible. And the only reason Honda's system powers the car electrically most of the time is because the ICE is also running most of the time to keep the battery charged up. In that system disconnecting the ICE from the load allows it to run at peak efficiency regardless of what the car is doing.
In the roll of a supplementary system it's an effective way to improve ICE efficiency. In doing that it can improve the overall vehicle efficiency by 20% or more.
In order for a car to use electric power as a primary motion source it needs some form of charging and that's why we have PHEVs. They offer (or should) the best of both worlds.
In order for a car to use electric power as a primary motion source it needs some form of charging and that's why we have PHEVs. They offer (or should) the best of both worlds.
In theory, except it has been observed that as humans are typically lazy as a species they tend to skip PHEV charging most of the time and hence are more ICE than EV in real world usage. PHEV owners can save their anecdata, this has behaviour has been studied and I find it not implausible when you look at the effort levels of the typical member of the species.
You want a dual option of being able to charge a reasonable sized battery from a charging point AND use the petrol engine when you need more range. And if you just use the ICE to charge the battery, it simplifies the drive train.
It's always bugged me when the range statistics for these types of vehicle they include both the battery and the range extension on petrol in the mileage figures (total range including full battery and petrol) divided by (fuel used) to give their amazing milage figures. So when doing a measured distance on a fixed amount of fuel, they use all the battery power first before using the fuel. It's just dishonestly gaming the test!
There are several vehicles on the market that are electric drive train and smallish battery charged by an ICE, but without the option of external charging. These vehicles just thumb their noses at being a real EV. Nissan, I'm looking at you with your E-Power, and I'm sure the various Prius models from Toyota used to do the same.
I'm sure the various Prius models from Toyota used to do the same.
You're misunderstanding the point of Toyota's original system (and it's still being sold today, some 20+ years later). The battery is not there in order to run the car on electricity. It is there to help adjust the load on the ICE so that the ICE can be kept operating as efficiently as possible.
This is true of almost all non-chargeable hybrids. As another poster has pointed out it doesn't make sense to charge a large battery from the engine. The electric motors on most hybrids are supplementary power sources. They help the ICE operate more efficiently in the same conceptual way that a turbo or supercharger allows an ICE to operate more powerfully.
I'm actually aware of this, the theory is that you can cope with a smaller engine using excess energy to charge the battery when you don't need the power to drive the vehicle, but the electric drive augmenting the ICE engine when you do. But these types of vehicles should not be marketed in the same way as pure EVs or PEHVs.
And they certainly should never have had an exclusion from the ULEZ or even the congestion charge, as all of the power was coming in one way or another from a hydrocarbon fuel, and not even as efficiently as you might expect. The best you could say was that they were exporting the pollution to outside of the zone, and even that may not be true once the battery had been discharged.
Some of the small turbocharged diesels were achieving better mileage figures than the original Prius, even back in the day,
Small ICE that powers the batteries eh. So ICE -> generator -> AC to DC -> battery -> Inverter -> motor -> diff -> wheels. Remove the diff component for motor per wheel. 2nd law of thermodynamic says that simply will not be more efficient than using ICE to propel the car. I've run that past an auto engineer and they pretty much confirmed any notion of this being better is BS.
> I've wondered for years why they don't do this.
Politicians…
I remember when UK politicians were debating the move to EVs, the industry offered hybrids (EREV, PHEV and HEV) as a simple way to improve matters whilst the mining to battery production supply chain geared up and recharging infrastructure developed, as more hybrids could be produced than pure EVs and they could be easily fuelled etc. The politicians suspected the motor industry was being half hearted (mainly about air quality and reducing exhaust emissions) and so went full EV…
They're too small.
That's why.
Americans (me included) aren't interested in cars with that little interior space. I looked at them, and ended up with a Ford C-Max Energi. Not as much plug-in range, but more interior space. And one of the few things I don't like about it is that it's too small, I want more space inside.
'The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them' This quote, often attributed to Lenin, eerily parallels the West's modern dilemma: in their pursuit of profit, many Western nations outsourced their industrial sector to China. Now, as factories have disappeared, so has the need to learn the engineering skills required to make things. The West finds itself unable to manufacture critical products, having prioritised short-term gains over long-term self-sufficiency.
BYD has stated they don't have current plans to sell passenger cars in the US, but they do make eHGV's and busses in California. One time when I was in the area where the make them, I spotted a BYD passenger car with manufacturer's plates. IIRC, they are building a plant in Mexico for the Mexican and South American markets.
"That plan probably has a lot to do with the tariffs the US are putting on Chinese made cars."
Their statement predates those threats. I think it has more to do with the cost to built out a sales and service network. The US is massive and not having service centers enough to take care of warranty issues, inevitable recalls and depots to be able to dispatch parts would anger customers. I find it surprising there hasn't been a rebadge by Ford or GM as they've done in the past. With those tariffs, it's unlikely those would happen until they are repealed. It would give somebody like Ford the possibility of offering a lower cost, entry-level EV without having to make one themselves. They could then work on a mid-market EV of their own or possibly a co-build with the supplier of the low cost model. Think of the London double-decked electric busses. They are a BYD supplied skate with the chassis built in England. It's weird to see them driven off the transporter before they are built out.
"My parents and in-laws are old. They do less than 5000 miles a year in their cars. It genuinely makes more sense to keep the ice going in this case. However if you’re not really that old you’re missing a trick."
I agree that it makes sense to hang on to what they have. If that car breaks down and would require some expensive repairs, they might be well served with something like a 1st gen Nissan Leaf. They go around 70 miles on a charge, but can be had for very little money. If that range works, it can be a good deal. Obviously, they aren't driving a lot based on the 5,000/yr figure. I can't recall the models off-hand, but there are some early EV's with ~100mi ranges outside of the US that can be had cheap.
"Seeing the same from solar panels, to EVs, it’s cheaper and better due to being sold closer to actual cost of production. The west needs to cut the stockholders and CEO pay scales to compete, not send Yellen to China begging them to cut production rates of needed goods."
Inside EVs
Capri - WAS a stylish at the time coupe
Mustang - WAS a V8 muscle car saloon
Explorer - WAS a very large 4x4
Capri - a 4 five door SUV styled high rise thing that looks like every other SUV styled car on the road
Mustang - a 4 five door SUV styled high rise thing that looks like every other SUV styled car on the road
Explorer - a 4 five door SUV styled high rise thing that looks like every other SUV styled car on the road
One thing nobody has mentioned is that now the big investment wave is over, nobody is maintaining their charging networks, and they're slowly dying.
Now I roll up to a station, and fully half to 3/4 of the chargers will be dead. You can no longer depend on a fast-charging station to be working when you're planning a long drive.
I'm talking about chargers that won't connect with the app, or won't connect to the vehicle, to chargers that have no life at all and the screen is dead.
Out of 12 chargers at a station, you'll have people lining up to use the 3 that work.
This is all the networks except Tesla. ChargePoint, Electrify America, EVgo, FPL EVolution, Shell Recharge, EVConnect, Blink, Volta, etc...
(Edit: and yeah you have to have a different f*cking phone app and account for each one. None of them let you swipe a credit or debit card.)
This is where Telsa really made themselves different from the old Detroit dinosaurs. They built the car AND the infrastructure. 'Here is your car and here is a map of where you can charge it using our own chargers, enjoy!'
Everyone else in the US just built the cars and expected someone else (namely the US govt) to provide the chargers. 'Here is your car, yeah, not sure where you can charge it, wait a few years and someone else might build a charging station near you'.
A throwback to the old days when the auto makers built cars and it was others who built the petrol stations to cash in on the new fangled devices. But we are a long way from the days of companies rushing to market to be the first and get some of that sweet early customer money. Now companies expect a handout from the govt before they will do anything.
Just a case of regulators being asleep at the wheel.
It should have been mandated from the start - single standard kind of like USB-C and interoperability.
But the real problem is that nobody wants these cars and businesses don't want to invest into something that consumers may stop using.
So it is being done to the level that ticks the box to secure the handout and no more.
"Nobody wants these cars"
Nonsense. I've got one, I doubt I will go back to ICE, EVs are SOOOO much better. Recent figures say they have over a 90% (maybe even 95) "I'll buy another one" rate, which is pretty good.
And worth mentioning, proper petrol head here, having built and raced ICE cars, and running a petrol powered Dad/Lad kart team. And have a garage full of Crossflow parts. I still think EVs are the way to go.
"But the real problem is that nobody wants these cars and businesses don't want to invest into something that consumers may stop using."
People don't want expensive EV's and companies that make cars have not been in the petrol dispensing business. Many petrol stations make F-all on petrol and instead make money through the attached store selling snacks at a premium price (a cup of fizzy drink is dominated by the cost of the cup, not the contents).
I wouldn't have a hard time believing that Tesla doesn't make much money on charging given how Elon up and fired the whole division in a fit of pique. If it were a cash cow, he may have stopped short of that (maybe not. Might depend on K-levels) and just fired the department head. Yes, he hired a bunch back, but did the good ones go elsewhere? When I was younger I got in a tiff with the boss and got my backside fired. I had a new job when his daughter called me the next day to have me come back (I was the service manager and also did the shipping at a communications tech supplier). I did go back PT for a while, but not for long.
You're half right.
A lot of businesses are doing it just to tick the box.
Meanwhile, Tesla. How much are they worth again?
People want these vehicles. They may not fit every use case, but people want them. And they fit the use case for 90% of commuters. Yes, you have a counter anecdote, you are the 10%, sit down.
Tesla and the Chinese are just going to have the rest of the US automakers for dinner. We'll see who survives.
Can't harvest and sell juicy user data just by letting them swipe or tap a card. This and making their marks, sorry, customers, feel like they're part of an exclusive club instead of just buying a basic commodity.
Well ok, that's a bit cynical. In theory an app can tell you the nearest available charger on the network. Or, governments could just mandate use of open charging standards and then every car can query every charging network to find the nearest available chargers. No app required.
Regardless, I'm pretty sure mose people would like to just pay for their energy and go. They certainly don't want the privilege of being harvested.
"This is all the networks except"
So, the ones that weren't only put in to collect some government grant/subsidy.
Tesla has been mainly the one charger that doesn't accept cards.
I don't see why these companies don't do more partnerships so chargers are being installed somewhere with at least some supervision and adjunct services (food, restrooms, convenience store) that could also take cash if networks are down and can report issues with chargers. I expect that some of the chargers, maybe all, have a health ping but that won't tell if the screen as gone dead or somebody has taken a bat to the payment terminal. To just stick these charging stations on their own and wish them luck is asking for trouble. Would the copper thieves steal the cables from chargers in a petrol station like forecourt?
I too famously predicted that EV's will eventually cost A LOT less than ICE cars. Most people don't seem to realize how complicated ICE cars are. Manufacturers have, over the course of 120+ years, learned how to make ICE cars affordable, reliable, efficient and comfortable, but they paid in sweat, tears and dollars to get there.
Very cheap cars will pose new problems. Car ownership will increase markedly and our roads are already stuffed to the rim.
Mechanically they are more complex but not by much. Electronically EVs HAVE to be more complex by their very nature.
EV motors and gearboxes still need precision parts such as bearings and gears. These are no different to an ICE vehicle. The reciprocating bits in the engine are relatively simple if remove things like variable valve timing.
You can make a diesel engine that runs with absolutely zero electrical parts. Petrol engines have been made to run without an external battery since their very early days.
EV makers seem to have forgotten the magic tricks needed to keep the oil in the oily bit, the water in the cooling pipes and rain out of everything. Long gone are the days of cars marking their territory with oil spots. A worrying number of EVs have issues where the battery packs end up with water sloshing around in them from failed cooling or simply leaks in the seals but there is no evidence of external damage or abuse. Just straight up manufacturing issues. And that then needs a whole new pack.
An electric car is basically a battery, an electric motor, four wheels and a steering wheel. It doesn't have a starter motor, fuel pump, ignition system, transmission, cooling system or exhaust system. Most newer ICE cars add a hybrid drivetrain, making it even more complicated and failure prone.
There's a HUGE difference between ICE and EV's mechanically. We'll see sub-$10,000 cars in the future complete with most amenities currently in $30K ICE cars. And these things hardly need any maintenance and last 5 decades or more if battery technology improves.
"It doesn't have a" "ignition system"
It still has control electronics, even if it doesn't trigger fuel injectors or spark plugs. These are not simple brushed DC motors like an RC car.
The control electronics needed to run a high power multi-phase electric motor will need a lot of cooling, likely active cooling in the case of higher power EVs.
"transmission"
They still have reduction gears which are precision made, ground and hardened elements along with bearings.
"cooling system"
Oh yes they do! The original leaf missed this bit off and cooked its batteries. Plus the need to cool the power electronics and in some cases the motors.
"We'll see sub-$10,000 cars in the future ..."
There is the problem in a nutshell, the only way EV's can be thought of as 'Good' is *IF* we add a *little* magic divining of the future !!!
There is no direct fact based reason to believe that EV's *WILL* cost sub-$10,000 at some mythical point in the future.
To afford to drop the price so low the numbers being bought need to increase massively !!!
Current trends are *NOT* supporting this as a likelyhood !!!
Future changes in production methods that will reduce costs are not known to be imminent either.
This future is a wish/hope against reality *NOT* a possibility backed by any data trend or known set of facts related to cheaper costs or economies of scale.
You may as well hope for a working Fusion reactor to be available for sale by Christmas !!!
or
Tesla to have a 100% Fully Self Driving Car available before the heat death of the universe !!!
:)
There is not enough REM and metals mined to satisfy demand. It is not even possible to build mines or scale existing ones in the needed timeframes.
I predict governments will backtrack on EVs in 5 years and they'll be phased out.
Probably a different technology will replace them or we'll come back to ICE.
"It's not going to run out any time soon."
Oil as a generic item likely won't run out soon. The issue is that it's getting much harder to find "light/sweet" crude which is the most profitable to process into transportation fuels. Russia has lots of oil and there are the tar sands in Canada. The problem is those are "heavy/sour" and require loads more energy input to refine them into petrol/diesel/Kero. Rather than running out, the price is going to continue rising until very few people can afford it. It will be far more valuable for all of the other products it goes into. Hospitals are loaded with one-time use plastics. Modern agriculture is the use of soil to turn petroleum into food (fertilizer, herbicide, fungicide, insecticide, tractor fuel, grain dryers, transport to processing/market). People are going to prioritize eating over a Sunday drive.
It is still going to be available whereas we are going to actually run out of copper (mining capability) long before there will be supply issues of oil.
Even if we start building new mines today, it is way too late to satisfy the projected demand.
EVs are dead in the water.
"It is still going to be available whereas we are going to actually run out of copper (mining capability) long before there will be supply issues of oil."
Some studies have predicted that Iron(steel) isn't abundant enough for everybody to have their own automobile and the gap is widening with every birth.
When I take the train, I can look out the window and see s-tons of scrap metal along the routes. One thing Copper isn't used for much anymore is telephone. The city I live in has no more POTS phone service. I'd have fiber internet but when they started asking me for my date of birth and other sensitive information, that ended the sign up (I'd be fine paying by the quarter in advance so they have no need to extend credit). I think when I signed up for cable internet, I lied. I might do that with the fiber company since they are faster and charge $35/month less even without auto-pay.
Some studies have predicted that Iron(steel) isn't abundant
Divn't talk shite lad. There's an entire section of Western Australia called the Pilbara that is essentially iron ore with dust on top. It is so abundant there you can actually fix a magnet to some of the rock formations. The area covers 500,000 km^2. Not to mention that it is a recyclable material and scrappies have existed for quite some time.
but EVs are clearly the only option we have at the moment
That'd be why EV sales are scaling back, multiple manufacturers have switched course on them and Toyota is making bank on hybrids. Don't even quote China. It isn't a free market and there are massive Government funded distortions taking place. EVs seem to be the new "empty cities" for China.
"There is not enough REM "
Rare-Earth metals are unfortunately named. There's plenty. The trouble is that on the heavier end of the row there's Thorium which is often classed as a "radioactive hazardous waste". In China, the government takes the Thorium (not sure if they pay or pay very much) and stocks it away for later since there isn't enough of a market for it. The US could do that since there's plenty of space at the Proving Grounds in Nevada for as much as might be produced and surplus. The Thorium is always going to be a byproduct and, therefore, a massive cost to legally dispose of. That's until LFTR or similar reactors are built that will use it to produce electricity.
"An electric car is basically a battery, an electric motor, four wheels and a steering wheel. "
Heated, digitally assisted servo wing mirrors
Adjustable air ride suspension
Panoramic glass roof (multi-cultural friends not supplied)
Motorized rear seats with 255 memory presets
Always connected infotainment system (16 subscription accounts charged separate fees after 30 day trial)
etc. See window sticker for extensive list of other "features".
Most Western manufacturers see EV's as a premium product because they make no noise, have no vibrations, accelerate quickly and don't pollute the environment. And they want a premium price for it.
But EV's can easily be made bare-bones and dirt-cheap as some Chinese manufacturers demonstrate.
"But EV's can easily be made bare-bones and dirt-cheap as some Chinese manufacturers demonstrate."
That's preferable for me. I use my car a lot for work and that means hauling a bunch of cases of stuff. Earlier this year I removed the rear seat and decked out the back so it was easier to haul parts and tools and camp in the car. I'd not want to do that with a new and expensive car since I'd be paying for all of that luxury. Bare bones transportation? No problem. I'd not worry a bit about changing it to fit my needs. If I had the money, I'd get an EV at auction to modify if I could find one with damage that I'd be cutting out anyway.
Electric engines are much simpler, long lasting, need little maintenance, less polluting, quiet, efficient and much smaller. Combined with solar charging systems in every home, hotel, grocery stores, it will have much less pollution or no pollution.
On highways, battery swapping stations instead of or in conjunction with gas stations and hotels, restaurants, or much faster charging batteries will be the answer. It is time to get rid of life destroying dirty energy clunkers.
Battery swapping is a great idea. Car makers will never go for it though, their batteries are usually structural and part of the their protected IP. Too many manufacturing secrets.
Solar charging on every home is hopelessly impractical. Many homes have no suitable roof surface for solar panels, or a roof that is too small to hold enough panels to effectively charge a car, and who is going to buy, build and install that many panels anyway.
That problem multiplies for things like grocery stores, since you need to provision solar charging for all the store's customers at any one time.
Could cover all the world's car parks with solar panels, and park the cars underneath, but again that is hideously expensive.
"Battery swapping is a great idea. Car makers will never go for it though, their batteries are usually structural and part of the their protected IP. Too many manufacturing secrets."
Yes, never mind that the raw materials are already in limited supply and counting on there being swap stations that have every sort of battery on hand, charged up and ready to go is a fools game.
If an EV can drive as long as you might want to go in one session and charge back up fast enough to be ready after you have had a bit of a break and a meal, there's little need for swaps. If you can't charge at home or work, an EV is a poor choice.
There isn't anymore IP in a battery pack than a token amount to prevent third parties from making replacements without the magic DRM chip the car will require for operation.
Battery swapping is a great idea.
Not really going to happen because of the structural nature of the battery and its positioning. Been tried in trucks. Ask Janus how well that has panned out, with rigs burning themselves to the ground because you've introduced an increased risk of a short.
Who says they are less pollluting ?
Have you got any SCIENTIFIC proof for this statement or are you just repeating like a dumb parrot.
Walking and riding a bike is less polluting than an ICE or EV. No toxic batteries that are never recycled. Yes EV cars batteries are not recycled, 99% of used batteries have never been recycled and have all dumped and poisoning the planet at an obscene level.
"And on how to make up for the fuel duty they're not getting from EVs"
You're worried about the government not collecting enough tax? How generous of you.
In the US, many states are assessing an EV fee on the annual registration. I remember seeing one state that charged more than I pay in fuel tax with my econobox annually.
And I just had a letter from the DVLA saying I now have to pay road tax.
Yep, that's stage one of collection. They're just working out the best way to replace fuel duty for EVs. They could use a mileage based number based on the reported odometer reading from the MOT, or just hammer you on road tax. Rest assured they will not be foregoing that revenue.
Strip out as much of the tech as possible, forget all the apps, digital displays, firmware, autonomy and other BS. Run with dials, FM radio, keys, and fuzzy dice. Massively reduces the cost and complexity, shortens the build-time, reduces supply-chain pressures, increases resilience and makes it easy to fix.
The whole autonomy thing was an expensive blind alley.
The best the West can come up with is to surcharge or ban Chinese EVs to cover up the failure of their own industry, slowing their own green transition. Absolute shambles.
"Strip out as much of the tech as possible, forget all the apps, digital displays, firmware, autonomy and other BS. Run with dials, FM radio, keys, and fuzzy dice. "
I replaced the factory head unit in my car (AM/FM/CD) with an Android based infotainment system fit to my make/model for $175 retail. I could have shaved some from that if I ordered direct from a Chinese supplier such as AliExpress, but I didn't want to wait. It includes a back up camera and with an app, I have all of the trip counters and monitoring data I could want. It came with several options for SatNav and I would hope that for an EV, there would be one that can be updated to show charging stations. I can connect through my phone hot spot to have a larger web browser when I want. I see a lot of value for money there that I'd want to keep that. I can ditch motorized seats with umpteen memory presets, the glass roof, folding wing mirrors, motorized charging door flap, etc. Heated seats, at least up front, are a worthwhile expense since it's 'cheaper' to heat the human than the whole cab in cold weather. I mainly drive on my own so seating for 7 is a waste and the last time I had that many in my car was when I was a teenager and would haul my friends and our surfboards to the beach in my VW van.
"Although the best efficiency is a small jet turbine, but the exhaust can melt the road."
If you direct the exhaust downward it would melt the road. I'd vent it out the back with bypass air ducted around the turbine for cooling so it didn't melt the front off the car behind. Pure electric when queued up at the drive thru.
Skunk? Strong?
Skunk is just particularly smelly weed. Says nothing about the THC content, and most of what got called "skunk" was older and weaker stuff.
Here, take a look at the strains available at one shop I've been to: https://www.thereleafcenters.com/ Michigan has some of the best prices on weed in the US now, though Ford isn't in that business.
"Given the incredible range of the electric F-150"
Horses for courses. If you need a work truck for a local handyman business, hundreds of miles of range isn't necessary. The same if you need one on a ranch or farm. To haul a heavy trailer a fair distance isn't a good application. Even the 8-bit Cybertruck that has the highest claimed towing figures doesn't get very far when towing a caravan.
What can be handy is charging overnight so there isn't the need to spend time going to a petrol station that takes away from paying work.
If you are looking to buy a home, you don't take into consideration that maybe you might have a big family gathering and having 8 bedrooms would be useful. You look at homes that fit your usual circumstances. If you have 6 children, maybe you need 8 bedrooms and likely a couple of family baths and a cloakroom to go around. If it's just you and somebody else, 2-3 might be sufficient or even just one depending on your lifestyle. Of course, it's more than just the number of bedrooms that drives a home buying decision and it's the same for a vehicle.
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