Congress to Commerce: Sanction more Chinese chip firms to stop Huawei's evasion US elected officials are urging the Commerce Department to take action to prevent Huawei from building a network of "clandestine semiconductor facilities used to circumvent US law." The letter, published on the website of the House Select Committee on the Chinese Communist Party, urges Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo to take …
Assuming Congress is willing to go public with what "we know" in an appropriate venue, I don't have a problem with it.
Them down, not stop them.
As with most internationally used products, you'll slow the competition down, but not stop them in their tracks.
Maybe I'm somewhat naive in this matter, but I really don't understand this spat between the US of A and China.
So much US commerce is built/manufactured in China.
Seems somewhat counterintuitive to be working with and fighting against the same entity...
Like all Chinese companies, the CCP is embedded in their corporate structure. Since the CCP has great influence on all Chinese companies, it is not surprising that they would coerce other Chinese companies into getting semiconductor manufacturing equipment to Huawei by any means necessary.
It's not just the US. China is the largest telecom market in the world, and the PRC severely restricts entrance into that market by Erickson, Samsung, or Nokia. At the same time, the PRC heavily subsidizes Huawei in an effort to undermine other telecom manufacturers and control the market outside of China.
"The most shocking finding is that when direct comparisons are done on identical IP, the Arm A510 for Huawei’s Kirin 9000S built on SMIC’s N+2 (7nm) and 2022 Qualcomm’s S8G1 built on Samsung’s 4LPX process (4nm). The performance and power consumption of the Arm A510 cores are effectively on par with each other despite the process technology gap, indicating SMIC N+2 is better than most in the west realize. Part of the reason these chips are so close to each other is Samsung’s poor yield and SMIC’s good yield.
Put simply, Kirin 9000S is a better designed chip than the West realizes. "
SemiAnalysis
https://www.semianalysis.com/p/china-ai-and-semiconductors-rise
they never learn do they. Push someone into a corner and they will come out fighting.
Give it a few years and let us see who has come out on top. (hint... It will not be the U.S. of A.).
By the way, how is your battle against Chinese Garlic doing? Paranoid or what?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67662779
Quite understandably Huawei and other Chinese companies are not keeping the US Commerce Department appraised of their latest developments and business plans. Why should they? What's in it for them?
Sanctions have got a bit out of control....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2024/us-sanctions-lobbying-money-washington-lebanon-venezuela/
Just remember that every dollar spent inside the Beltway on lobbying and compliance is one less dollar being spent on investment in R&D and manufacturing capability. It still quite normal to think that we've got infinite amounts of dollars here to spend as we wish but like fishing out the sea or clearcutting the forest eventually resources run out (its always a surprise).
Every time I see these sort of international discussions then my mind pauses and I remember a so much better discussion from years ago that was originally just the local England/Ireland environment, but now I see it defining the whole world we all have to live in these days:
"The most important things to do in the world are to get something to eat, something to drink and somebody to love you." - Brendan Behan.
"OK, for the third time, just ship the Chinese vacuum tube tech only. There, finished."
Umm, most vacuum tube stuff comes from China and Russia.
The top Chinese students are studying in the US and elsewhere so the knowledge is getting back to the Middle Kingdom no matter if built hardware is or not.
Just like all the 'Asian' countries in the period since WW2 - learn from the Yanks by building cheap copies, then teach yourself how to do it better, then teach yourself how to build a better product. What is different this time around?
And if you want to accelerate the process outsource manufacturing to a lower cost country.
"clandestine semiconductor facilities used to circumvent US law."
It's like they think the US law doesn't apply to them or something like that?
FFS America, you're rich and powerful. Maybe, just maybe, you should compete.... fairly.... set an example to the world (a good example, not the spoilt child one you're doing at the moment).... then we'll all be better off.
Otherwise, in 10-15 years time, when China aren't exporting the latest chip technology to you, don't expect sympathy.
America isnt rich or powerful.
Have you seen the streets of America, homeless people everywhere, and its so rich that americans have the worst working conditions in the western world, no free healthcare, fewest holidays.
Did i also mention how scared america is of actually giving everything (long range missiles) to ukraine to fight russia ?
Yeh sounds really powerful, just like Russia was really powerful until we saw how crap their equipment is in practice.
"Have you seen the streets of America, homeless people everywhere, and its so rich that americans have the worst working conditions in the western world, no free healthcare, fewest holidays."
In big cities where there's lots of free stuff, there's lots of homeless people. Some people are just messed up without help but the ones that are choosing are being enabled by so much charity that it's not that hard of an option. In the past, living a hobo lifestyle was much more hardcore and even hobos had to work from time to time.
When something is free, you get what you pay for. It's great if you can just walk into an A&E and get an injury seen to, but if you need a new liver, good luck. The problem with healthcare in the US is lawyers. If a woman can sue and win millions for "undue and unjust pain" during childbirth, red flags should go up, but juries will hand out those sorts of decisions.
There's paid holidays and then unpaid holidays. It wasn't until later in life that I made up my mind to not request days off, but to submit an FYI. They can pay me what they've promised and I'll take the days off that I want. There's limits and those just starting off in their careers have to be much more careful, but I've always given the best of my abilities and believe a company trying to replace me would have a tough time. Now I'm self-employed so I have the worst of both worlds. The boss is an ass and I'm a horrible employee. One of my goals is to work hard enough to allow taking plenty of days off to go do and see things. Working 50 to get 2 off is pants.
MachDiamond: In big cities where there's lots of free stuff, there's lots of homeless people.
cow: really ?
How come there are so few homeless in Australia then ?
Go on YT drive around any large american city and there are legions of homeless within a few minutes...
Drive around any Australian city or town and you will need hours ...
Mach:
Some people are just messed up without help but the ones that are choosing are being enabled by so much charity that it's not that hard of an option. In the past, living a hobo lifestyle was much more hardcore and even hobos had to work from time to time.
cow:
How come this doesnt happen in Australia ?
or NZ
or PT
or ES
or AT
or BE
cow: You might want to take a look at Spain or Australia as examples where there are basically zero homeless people.
~
Mach: When something is free, you get what you pay for.
cow:
Do americans really tell their parents this ?
mach:
It's great if you can just walk into an A&E and get an injury seen to, but if you need a new liver, good luck. The problem with healthcare in the US is lawyers. If a woman can sue and win millions for "undue and unjust pain" during childbirth, red flags should go up, but juries will hand out those sorts of decisions.
cow:
WTF is wrong with america ?
How come this doesnt happen in AU ?
~
Mach: There's paid holidays and then unpaid holidays. It wasn't until later in life that I made up my mind to not request days off, but to submit an FYI. They can pay me what they've promised and I'll take the days off that I want.
cow:
Hey thats American freedom hey, the freedom to work and die to keep your boss happy....
~
Mach:
One of my goals is to work hard enough to allow taking plenty of days off to go do and see things. Working 50 to get 2 off is pants.
cow:
Sounds a lot like slaves in ancient rome, work and work hoping to buy freedom...
Maybe its me, but i prefer to be free from the start.
We're learning a little too late that the Chinese played "the free market" game to win, instead of "for the love of the game." (Really easy to preach "love of the game" when you were the star player and team captain standing after the other team fell apart.)
The damnable thing of it is, we're not going to gracefully accept that this is the season of the Pax Americana waning because of our own mistakes in letting business run the country, instead we're going to double down on destructive, reactive policy that fails to address the real problems because it might offend some oligarch.
On the one hand, a somewhat oppressive very stable society.
On the other hand a positively schizophrenic country ripping itself to pieces.
The first doesn't really have any impact on me, but the second is quite worrying. I've noticed over the years the UK seems to be steadily picking up more of the contamination.
"Congress should be hanging and jaiing all those corporate boards that sent all that tech to China 20 years ago."
During Bill Clinton's Presidency there was a scandal reported about foreign (mainly Chinese) campaign donations. It was quashed in 2-3 days. Politicians have been praising companies such as Walmart which I consider the retail arm of China. Heavy industry has slowly been banned, taxed and regulated out of the US. It's not the corporate boards, it government policy that's sending jobs overseas. It's a lack of a trading standards agency (ministry) that allows loads of counterfeit, dangerous and sub-standard goods into the US that squeezes out US based companies. The only time I see enforcement is when it's a product with heavy excise tax and the tax is being circumvented (cigs and booze). If it's just a container load of rip-off razors, they don't care less.
Are you seriously telling me that congress FORCES all them companies to send manuf to china ?
The american media have really brainwashed you, into thinking corporate boards are all super wonderful and never to blame. Its always someone elses fault it can never be the greedy corporate boards who are constaantly trying to find more slaves so they can rewaRD THEMSELVS.
"The american media have really brainwashed you,"
I owned a manufacturing company for nearly 20 years and over that time more and more regulations were being put in place that cost me more money to produce our products. My suppliers were being forced to move overseas especially those with heavy industry aspects such as with metals. At first, I could buy the steel I needed in the US and before long the alloys I used were no longer made due to the cost of regulations and I had to buy from suppliers in South Korea and some specialties from Germany. China in particular was buying up some industries and moving production to China leaving nobody making the materials left in the US. It was akin to bombing raids during WWII that went after ball bearing factories. It was a key component that couldn't be made by multitudes of people with a lathe in a back garden shed. It worked then and China is employing the same tactics now. Undercut manufacturers of certain base level components, wait until they are bankrupt, buy their equipment and ship it to China (or dump it at sea) so somebody else can't come along later and restart the business. Once there's little to nobody left, raise prices to more than those items cost previously partially to recoup selling at a loss to kneecap those industries.
I'm not absolving some entities of moving off-shore to enrich their executives, but the US government is very much to blame for their part. This is not supposition, this is lived experience and why I had to shut down a company that was over 50 years old.
Mach: I owned a manufacturing company for nearly 20 years and over that time more and more regulations were being put in place that cost me more money to produce our products.
cow:
What regulations ? THere are many factors in any manuf process, just saying regulations without examples or details is a cheap shot and is merely a personal opinion because there are zero details.
A lot of manuf has gone overseas because companies particularly american companies are super greedy. THey save money by moving overseas, and then they "give bonuses" to staff that do basically nothing.
I cant comment on your busienss but this generalisation is true everywhere in america manuf. aka Boeing yep need to save money on manuf, and then spend tens of millions in bonuses, or Nike, need to save money manuf shoes then spend tens of millions on sponsoring atheletes or celebrities.
Im sorry your statement is bunk becaus eyou chose to leave out all sorts of unnecessary modern costs.
~
Mach: My suppliers were being forced to move overseas especially those with heavy industry aspects such as with metals.
cow: FORCED ?
Yet again you are making unfounded personal statements. So you are FORCED (my emphasis) because others were FORCED, because they weree FORCED. Thats circular.
Mach: I'm not absolving some entities of moving off-shore to enrich their executives, but the US government is very much to blame for their part.
cow: AS your previous discussion mentions, there are many contributing factors from many parties. Thats quite different from blaming everything on the GOV, many vs one is not an equivalency.
I cannot speak for the USA as i have no first hand experience but when it comes to germany, especially now that the EUrocracy runs Amok with the silliest of regulations, i can understand why international competitors benefit from death by beaurocracy.
Lets start with ticking all those climate preachers off (People like the COP xx hypocrites who do their "climate conference" in person, with tons of cronies and tons of kerosin because every useless climate preacher needs to fly there with the biggest private jet possible.) CO2 taxation ups the cost for everything that needs energy to be produced, which means everything.
EU regulations, that keep mutating and must be mutated into local laws include interesting things like the correct angle for cucumbers, a law for machine builders to create documents concerning the possible deforestation index for every friggin part thats manufactured externally, excessive "data protection" that - if done by the letter - will force each company that makes prototypes for others to delete any and all information after a maximum of 10 years. Add the convoluted german tax laws and you might see and experience why international competitors have less issues.
Of course, there are similarities to the US (as said, i have no first hand experience so im going by what information i got in the last decades). Outright corruption on all levels, including tax avoidance schemes like chancellor Olaf Scholzs "Cum-Ex/Cum" which his pals in the Warburg bank do since the late 1980ies, albeit under the name of "Dividendenstripping" back when it first came into the news.
Taxes and other forms of legalized wage theft are currently surpassing the 50% mark which leads to less customers in the nation and thus the need to export (==compete internationally).
Add the destruction of any kind of useable education (Bologna/Master/bachelor) and the massive increase of cost for the worsening education and i believe germany can be compared to the US.
Then theres the second part of the widespread destruction. Apart from the economic war that the falling USA wages against so called "allies", german managers tend to make more and more suicidally bad decisions, from electroimmobility over trading quality for cheap blinkenthingens and other useless decorations to actively discouraging educating their workforce and also actively discouraging any kind of incentive to develop and share ideas. The "idea" part is also not helped by changing the work law by andrea nahles ("social-democratic" party), effectively giving your employer anything you invent for free.
TL,DR:
Both managers/corporations and governments are to blame for each and every economic issues the so called "free west" is currently experiencing. Both are adverse to long term thinking and planning, something that china is traditionally good at, both only operate on greed, incompetence and ideology and both dont give a flying dolphins droppings about the destruction they cause or the people they murder (directly or indirectly) as long as their pockets fill up. The main issue seems to be a system thats optimised to put the most detestable and deranged psychos in the positions where they can do a maximum of damage.
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