back to article Major publishers sue Perplexity AI for scraping without paying

Major US news publishers Dow Jones & Co and NYP Holdings have sued AI search engine startup Perplexity for scraping their content without paying for it. The lawsuit, filed on behalf of The Wall Street Journal and its sister tabloid New York Post by their parent company News Corporation, alleges two counts of copyright …

  1. Long John Silver Bronze badge
    Pirate

    AI sounding the death knell for copyright?

    The tenor of my comment is directed neither toward discussing the validity of the concept of copyright, nor to its expression in law. Those topics are irrelevant to whether copyright is sustainable in practice.

    Globally, so-called 'intellectual property' (IP) is awarded its status through international conventions. In particular, details of law protecting copyright vary among nations, but in essence support the same general aims. Nations particularly dependent upon copyright generated income actively promote convergence of national laws to a common standard, and through trade agreements demand evidence that copyright is enforced rigorously; in this context the USA is the major player.

    Before supposed 'AI' stormed onto the scene, copyright holders were engaged in vigorous defence against widespread circumvention of their 'rights'. Commercial misappropriation of 'works' is tackled through law enforcement. However, unlawful 'competition' is facilitated by the substantial number of people willing to opt for the cheaper offerings. Likely of much greater importance is illicit distribution within the ethos of 'sharing'. The matter is bedevilled by difficulties for rights holders' in establishing plausible monetary losses. However, application in the USA of statutory damages staves off demands for universally agreed accounting of losses.

    Copyright enforcement suffered a serious, perhaps ultimately fatal, blow when the 'digital era' arose. Disobedience to copyright law is rampant. It seems impossible to stem either through appeal to peoples' supposed 'better nature' or by enforcement mechanisms based on technology and civil/criminal law. Current efforts at enforcement have the look of fierce rearguard action.

    'AI' has thrown a further spanner in the works. Setting aside much hyped claims for AI's capabilities, there remains the fact that 'large language models' enabling anyone so-minded to interact with AIs are acting as repositories of information. These AIs are not merely an analogue of books sitting on shelves. They offer services akin to those from a skilled librarian who also is a particular subject specialist. The oft reported nonsense output sometimes emanating from these computational resources can, in part, be attributed to imperfections of the underlying technology and to indiscriminate use of 'training' materials.

    Take-up of these resources by ordinary people is occurring remarkably fast. This type of AI seems set to become a major contributor to education, to aspects of the work of various professionals offering services, and in the context of academic research. State legislatures, the national Houses of Congress, and courts in the USA may be able to hobble AIs or to turn them into cash cows for holders of rights. It's likely 'Western' nations, and others highly dependent upon trade with the USA, will step into line.

    Looking globally, the future for copyright enforcement in AI is far less rosy. Nobody other than their own countrymen have a hope of preventing a free-for-all feeding of mankind's accumulated knowledge and broader culture into AIs. This will occur in universities, some other public institutions, and in commerce, with little chance of it being stemmed. Moreover, some of this will be shared globally on the Internet.

    Copyright is a legal construct. One which many believe enforces a natural right to property ownership. Others think differently, else they are unwilling to engage in metaphysical argument. Regardless of that, if one nation goes against the grain, the copyright construct collapses globally. I posit that an initiative supporting open dissemination of information shall arise from BRICS nations when they flex economic muscle.

    The foregoing leaves the interesting question of what IP-dependent economies could do in preparation for the inevitable, so that a seemingly untenable mode of business is replaced by other means fostering cultural and material prosperity. Perhaps, differing perspectives on the meaning of 'property' will become casus belli.

    1. katrinab Silver badge
      Alert

      Re: AI sounding the death knell for copyright?

      The biggest problem with this so-called "AI" is that it claims to be able to do something that is mathematically impossible.

      An actual intelligent response requires a lot more than a study of the frequency of word-pairs in a collection of documents, like an actual understanding of the subject matter.

      1. Version 1.0 Silver badge

        Re: AI sounding the death knell for copyright?

        It's worth remembering our original complex and detailed views of intelligence when we start working with AI these days, for example:

        "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." -- Albert Einstein

        1. tmTM

          Re: Albert Einstein

          and just like AI, you're p̶r̶o̶d̶u̶c̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶f̶a̶l̶s̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶f̶o̶r̶m̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n. Experiencing a hallucination.

          He never said that.

          1. Version 1.0 Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: Albert Einstein

            LOL I'll upvote you for your thoughts although I am not sure that your comment is accurate ... but I'm not confident that my original history of comments is accurate either. I think it would have made sense for Einstein to have said that, but "evidence" is just historical writing after the hallucination world that we all lived in so many years ago (icon).

        2. anon45678
          Facepalm

          Re: AI sounding the death knell for copyright?

          Thanks for repeating the Narcotics Anonymous quote

          https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Narcotics_Anonymous

          > Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.

    2. abend0c4 Silver badge

      Re: AI sounding the death knell for copyright?

      The legal constructs, whatever they may be, have the goal of motivation. You can of course endlessly debate whether they have that effect or are mostly laws of unintended consequence, but the notion that labour should be rewarded is fairly strongly wired into the human psyche.

      Whereas it might be possible to imagine a world in which cultural and material prosperity is no longer associated with proprietorial rights, I don't see many historical precedents.

    3. doublelayer Silver badge

      Re: AI sounding the death knell for copyright?

      I'm sure, given your opinions on copyright being evil, that you embrace the prospect of the elimination of copyright, either through direct legal abolition or through global failure to enforce it. That doesn't mean that is the inevitable outcome. Those who support the existence of copyright can and should try to prevent it from collapsing. You're calling for a preemptive surrender, but we aren't that far along yet.

      People have been making similar arguments for a long time. When the internet made it easier to obtain copies of things you wanted without paying for them, people loved to sound the death knell of copyright, but as things developed, it didn't go that way. Piracy actually became less popular when it became possible to more easily obtain legal versions of the thing you wanted, versions that came with less risk of dodgy sites or poor-quality versions. As the companies that make that available start to make terms worse, it's likely that piracy will increase in popularity again, but that can go in both directions.

      As for your hope that some countries will decide not to have or enforce copyright law, you may be surprised to find out that they do sometimes make IP themselves. India was in your list, and it has a large and relatively popular film industry. They want copyright protection on those works. If they decided to be egregious in assisting the violation of others' copyrights, they might find that their own copyrights have lost value. As these countries get richer, more and more of their economies will rely on IP. Their current spotty enforcement is not the same as your preferred abolition of the concept, and there is a reason to think that they will improve it, at least for their own IP, rather than go in the direction you've pointed.

  2. Irongut Silver badge

    > the robots.txt file, implemented by Google, OpenAI, and Cloudflare

    The robots.txt file has been around since long before Google, OpenAI or Cloudflare existed. This sentence makes it sounds like they recently invented it.

    1. IGotOut Silver badge

      It's also misleading.

      Cloudflare doesn't use robots txt to block AI crawlers. They have their own bot detection techniques, so therefore can (mostly) block crawlers, regardless of wether or not they honour robots.txt.

  3. nahbrah

    "great" Americans like Elon Musk

    The only thing "great" about Elon is the size of his ego.

    The New York Post is no stranger to hallucinations. I wonder if part of the reason they're upset is because Perplexity ended up making the information less-incorrect than in the original article?

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: "great" Americans like Elon Musk

      At the rate at which Musk is attracting lawsuits he'll soon be challenging his mentor, Trump for the highest number of lawsuits filed against them.

      That says a lot about the man. He simply does not care. He can buy every judge in the world to render verdicts on his behalf.

      1. JugheadJones

        Re: "great" Americans like Elon Musk

        or I think judgements in the US are biased towards Americans who are mostly , high net worth coporates. Outside of the US, guilty or not it would be more fairer system.

        Look at ridiclous supreme court ruling on Trump, how he has managed to avoid prison and ordinary people with lesser crimes do, is just unreal. If Trump can get away with it then Musky can as well, and has so far.

        America needs a magna carta amendment

  4. O'Reg Inalsin

    139 words

    That's about the number of words that WSJ lets the user see before fading into the paywall. So lots of 3rd party sites copy that part and include a link - they're not aiming to please, just to get that one click from the users hoping the whole article would be exposed. Sounds like fair use to me. The claim that Perplexity owes WSJ/NYP for being wrong, i.e. not using the WSJ/NYP source, I doubt that has standing.

    Perplexity was the first AI search to offer links, and within a couple of weeks Google and OpenAI were doing the same. The competition is provably good.

    1. doublelayer Silver badge

      Re: 139 words

      "The claim that Perplexity owes WSJ/NYP for being wrong, i.e. not using the WSJ/NYP source, I doubt that has standing."

      I don't think standing is the right word there. I think I agree with you in that I'm not aware of any law they can use for that. That they have been harmed, standing, is clear: the bot is not just being wrong, it is attributing that wrong text to the papers. It would be along the lines of me saying that "The Register forum contributor O'Reg Inalsin said 'I like to kill people'". I might not have violated any law by telling that lie, especially if I believed it to be true, but you wouldn't be advantaged if I did it.

      Fair use is the most typical argument, and I've never found it very convincing. Even if they're only taking that much of the article because their bot can't get past the paywall, nothing makes that text free for the taking, and it indicates that, were they able to, they'd happily quote more. Whether the inaccuracy is due to not having the whole article in the training data or is just LLM quality issues, they don't have an automatic right to use the stuff they have gathered from these papers or from any paywall-free site on the internet.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You're all bots

    Prove me wrong! :-P

    (Granted some of you are the fleshy variety, scraping the web for your own 'mental' models!)

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