back to article AWS boss: Don't want to come back to the office? Go work somewhere else

AWS CEO Matt Garman has reportedly told workers that if they don't like the company's five-day-a-week return-to-office policy, they can look for work elsewhere. Garman's comments were made at an all-hands meeting, reported by Reuters. They followed Amazon CEO Andy Jassy's September memo informing staff that everyone was …

  1. abend0c4 Silver badge

    There are other companies around...

    ... but we're working on it, he added.

  2. gecho

    Moved!

    I suspect many of the holdout remote workers no longer live in the city which they were employed. Apparently a large number of Californians moved out of state to places with lower costs of living, driving up the cost of living in many cities in Arizona and Nevada.

    1. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: Moved!

      >places with lower costs of living

      This isn't a new phenomenon, I know people who were remote working decades ago. But -- they were specialists. Nobody likes to think of themselves as run of the mill employees, we're all special, but the truth is only a handful of us are either special enough, or persuasive enough, to get away with it.

      As for 'lower costs of living' its true that housing costs are generally cheaper out of state but, insane Bay Area prices aside, by nothing like as much as you'd expect. Quite apart from these transplants lifting property prices in places like Austin the cost of living is not necessarily lower in other states. Lower taxes invariably mean higher user fees and property taxes -- the state's got to get its money somehow -- and while gasoline is cheaper outside California things like groceries are not.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Moved!

        >places with lower costs of living

        Try eastern Europe. Nice beaches and bitche$. Cost of living and healthcare, a fraction of USA.

        Be well related to the local gangs, or else...

        Anon, obvious

      2. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

        Re: Moved!

        That"s a load. California has one of the highest costs of living in the world. Last time I had the misfortune of being out there was almost 30 years ago, and the cost for groceries then is roughly what I pay for them now. A steak dinner at a chain steak house there in the late 1990s was a 30 dollar plate of gristle, same sort of meal here was 10 dollars and today is 25 dollars here. The only thing that might be lower is property taxes, provided you bought your house there in the 1980s and never moved.

        1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

          Re: Moved!

          You forgot to mention how all those Cali foods are all fake. Big shiny tomatos that have no taste and full of water. Same for the oranges, shiny and big but no taste. Perfect summary of America, big fake and no value.

          1. W@ldo

            Re: Moved!

            Agree, most engineered foods are done based on looks vs taste. I have two farms and while not fully organic I use as many heirloom seeds/plants as possible. Sure, the tomatoes look funny to some folks, but repeat customers come back for more.

            America, big, fake and no value....interesting perspective. America is one of the largest economies and its consumer engine supports many other countries. When Elon gets us to Mars we'll all load up and move there so you won't be bothered by fake & no value folks. I will say, there are quit a few Brits here and you may have to deal with them once we are gone.

            1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

              Re: Moved!

              waldo:

              America is one of the largest economies and its consumer engine supports many other countries.

              cow:

              Its also one of the poorest countries in the western world.

              If you dont believe me, look how they treat their average people.

              They cant afford healthcare, americans also get the lowest numbers of paid holidays...

              THere are many other metrics where the reality shows them not to be rich but poor.

              Poor people cant afford holidays, cant afford healthcare, many americans live on the street. It doesnt take long to find hundreds of homeless in the average american city, while you will have to try much harder in lesser countries like AU or NZ or half of EU.

              ~

              Waldo: When Elon gets us to Mars we'll all load up and move there so you won't be bothered by fake & no value folks.

              cow:

              He wont even pay his workers in America an extra dollar and you think he will just give away tickets to mars that cost hundreds of millions ?

              You really have been brainwashed to believe he is your friend.

        2. rcxb Silver badge

          Re: Moved!

          the cost for groceries then is roughly what I pay for them now

          California is only 18th (out of 50 US states) for grocery prices:

          https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/grocery-prices-by-state

          So we're only talking about 15% above average. And that's 15% extra on just 6% (US average) of your "food at home" disposable income...

          Of course you can find expensive groceries stores anywhere. "Whole Foods" being derisively called "Whole Paycheck" for example, but that's down to consumer choice, not an inherent cost of living in the state.

          California is larger than most Europeans countries, and has both high and low cost-of-living areas. Income taxes are a bit higher, but generally insignificant to non-billionaires. Gasoline prices are higher (much lower than in Europe), but not a significant expense except for a tiny fraction of a percentage of extreme commuters/commercial drivers.

      3. ITMA Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Moved!

        "Nobody likes to think of themselves as run of the mill employees, we're all special..."

        As Elastigirl (and Dash) in The Incredibles so succinctly put it (paraphrasing a little):

        Elastigirl: "Everyone is special Dash."

        Dash: "Which is another way of saying no-one is".

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gXCCBmTvBI

      4. rcxb Silver badge

        Re: Moved!

        Nobody likes to think of themselves as run of the mill employees, we're all special, but the truth is only a handful of us are either special enough, or persuasive enough, to get away with it.

        You don't need to be "special". It's not a gift given at the expense of others. People pay for the convenience of WFH by working longer hours, accepting lower salary, and more.

        Either your job requires you to be on-site, or it does not. If it does not, then forcing attendance is irrational, results in high salaries or less qualified employees. That makes your company less competitive against others who are not forcing attendance when not required.

    2. rcxb Silver badge

      Re: Moved!

      a large number of Californians moved out of state

      I don't consider 0.1%/yr a "large number".

      The slight decline in California's population is only notable because it is the first time it happened in 170 years straight... And it only lasted 3 years before reversing in 2023.

      It also aligns with mass retirement... i.e. the "Baby Boom" (children of returning WWII veterans) are have started hitting retirement age, which is a common time for people to decide to move. COVID-19 surely played a role as well.

      California is larger than most Europeans countries, and has both high and low cost-of-living areas. Income taxes are a bit higher, but generally insignificant to non-billionaires. Gasoline prices are higher (much lower than in Europe), but not a significant expense except for a tiny fraction of a percentage of extreme commuters/commercial drivers.

  3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    OTOH he's telling the world - and that includes potential customers - that AWS won't deploy its software to support remote working. What if those businesses want to support remote working for themselves? Might they take the view that "won't" means "can't"? Might they wonder if, by not using it themselves, AWS might produce a sub-optimal product.

    It's a far more convincing sales story for a large IT business to demonstrate that it eats its own dog-food.

    1. Plest Silver badge

      "AWS might produce a sub-optimal product". Might?!

      1. Korev Silver badge

        > "AWS might produce a sub-optimal product". Might?!

        You can Chime in with that one...

        1. big_D Silver badge

          I only had to use Chime once, on a call to Amazon, thank goodness.

    2. doublelayer Silver badge

      Since your ability or lack of ability to remote work mostly doesn't depend on where you put servers, I doubt that will have much of an effect. It would make as much sense as saying that a primarily remote AWS is bad because it means it's not good for people working in an office. That kind of argument might work a little for a company like Atlassian whose products are at least supposed to be related to teamwork, collaboration, and project management, but AWS doesn't have many things related to that and those they do have (hands up who can name the AWS videoconference tool, which I assume is only used in Amazon but you can buy it if you want) aren't really what people are using AWS for.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Is anyone going to chime in with the answer?

    3. rcxb Silver badge

      Even more than that... if remote work isn't feasible, then it would be more reliable for companies to have their servers on-site, rather than in AWS, so that an internet outage won't render it unavailable to on-site employees.

      1. Oneman2Many Bronze badge

        "then it would be more reliable for companies to have their servers on-site, rather than in AWS,"

        What, you aren't using cloud native applications ?

  4. Eclectic Man Silver badge
    Meh

    Easier to interact if in the same place

    "We've observed that it's easier for our teammates to learn, model, practice, and strengthen our culture; collaborating, brainstorming, and inventing are simpler and more effective; teaching and learning from one another are more seamless; and, teams tend to be better connected to one another."

    I know. Although retired* I still have a regular get-together conference call with my erstwhile 'workplace proximity associates'**. Although, now I come to think of it, the last two fortnightly calls have been cancelled at short notice ...

    * = 'Economically inactive' even though I still have to pay for things :o(

    ** = People I used to work near in the office, rather than work with in a team.

    1. Ken G Silver badge
      Trollface

      Easier to cable if all our server are in the same building.

      Communicating with colleagues via conference or video call just isn't the same as talking face to face, in the same way having servers in remote locations isn't the same as racking them together.

      AWS wouldn't expect clients to pay for servers they can never see physically, so why should they expect to pay for employees that aren't in their own buildings?

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

  5. Number6

    I was approached by an Amazon recruiter this week. I said I wasn't interested because I was unimpressed by their RTO mandate. So I'm taking the advice of the AWS CEO and concentrating my job search elsewhere.

    1. Nifty

      Who hasn't been approached by desperate-sounding AWS recruiters? I get approached about every 6 months. Not really a good look for the product or its owners.

    2. JoeTheAnnoying
      Thumb Down

      Good luck with that

      Yeah, Amazon interviewed me for a key position and my first post-interview question was, "What's your PTO policy?" Hiring manager: "That's an HR question."

      Follow-up interview with HR: "Do you have any questions?" "Yes. What's your PTO policy?" "Oh, that's the hiring manager's decision."

      Hiring manager follow-up call to ask me to produce some work for them (for free, of course): "What's your PTO policy?" "Oh, we can discuss that after you've submitted the work."

      Contacted a former co-worker who now worked there. "What's your PTO policy?" "Oh, that varies on a state-by-state basis, so I wouldn't be comfortable telling you."

      I declined to do the free work for them.

      A few months later they called back. "So, we've decided we're going to up our offer..."

      "AND you just announced your RTO policy. Please take me off your list."

      "But you haven't heard our offer."

      "I don't need to."

      I fought tooth-and-nail to be able to WFO since 2006 to be closer to my family. Hell if some pointy-haired exec is going to force me back without a single shred of evidence to support his pin-headed policies.

      1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

        Re: Good luck with that

        Just think how much money AMZN could "save" if they didnt have these pointless positions like HR or HM etc...

  6. A. Coatsworth Silver badge
    Holmes

    >> a stark contrast to the "nine out of ten" workers Garman said he had spoken with who supported the policy

    Which simply means he used to have a cohort of 10 sycophants who shielded him from the real world, and now he has nine.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      THe MAGA disease

      Make

      Amazon

      Great

      Again

      Surround yourself with 'Yes' men (like a certain POTUC candidate, they are mainly men) and you won't have to hear the word 'NO' ever again

      Time to ditch Amazon and '45.

      IT has been two years since I bought anything from AMZN.

    2. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

      Shield ?

      He knows very well he is an areshole not sure why you pretend its a uninformed mistake.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    CEO: "do X or go somewhere else!"

    Employees: "ok" (leave for somewhere else)

    CEO: (surprised Pikachu face)

    1. Persona Silver badge

      Alternatively if this is, as the author cynically speculates, a cheap and easy way to reduce the size of the workforce, it could be CEO: (smiling face)

      1. Law

        CEO: *twirls mustache while grinning*

      2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        "Alternatively if this is, as the author cynically speculates, a cheap and easy way to reduce the size of the workforce, it could be CEO: (smiling face)"

        Except the people most likely to be able to jump ship at a moments notice are usually the ones you'd rather not lose.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Beancounters generally don't know that though (or don't care)

          1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

            Leadership and their mates are all sociopaths, theres little difference in the humanity of the american ceo or vlad.

        2. Oneman2Many Bronze badge

          Since when did bean counters care ?

          Actually even worse, its better for bean counters for more experienced and hence higher paid staff to get the heave ho. Good to get rid of deadwood sometimes but there are always decent staff caught up in the cull.

      3. Spanners
        Facepalm

        So why?

        Several people here keep being contacted by AWS. Why?

        1. Nifty

          Re: So why?

          "Several people here keep being contacted by AWS. Why?"

          Not always directly but there's an army of approved recruiters constantly trying to fill devops-type positions for AWS. I think they've sort of industrialised the recruitment process. Will this end well?

      4. Sherrie Ludwig

        Alternatively if this is, as the author cynically speculates, a cheap and easy way to reduce the size of the workforce, it could be CEO: (smiling face)

        yes, but the in-demand ones leave immediately, and as they do they inform other good ex-colleagues of opportunities elsewhere, and soon you are left with the "Screw it, I got a year to retirement", the "too lazy to look somewhere else, I can skive off right here" and the desperate. Not an office climate I'd like to create.

    2. Bebu
      Windows

      Alternate world line

      CEO: "do X or go somewhere else!"

      Employees: "ok" (leave for somewhere else)(stays)

      CEO: (surprised Pikachu face)(supercilious grin)

      Employees: Back to the office then? (Thinks I am sure I will be really motivated to perform at my best with a commitment to an employer that clearly values my contribution and is concerned with my welfare and career progression. Pig's arse - screw you.)

      I don't how much incidental damage that "teams" of thoroughly demotivated people can inflict on an organisation but I imagine we are about to find out... in spades.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Alternate world line

        I long ago came to the conclusion that either mangelers (as opposed to the rarer managers) either don't care about demotivation of staff or don't have the faintest idea of what demotivates them. What they care about is motivating themselves by showing off, threatening, etc.

        1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

          Re: Alternate world line

          You must be stupid.

          Managers dont care, after all its a fucking joke they even exist.

          In 9/10 cases the reasoning for any action is not whether its for the god of the group but its always whats good for the person. These managers only care about them, and well everything that they do must fit with keeping their around.

          1. Oneman2Many Bronze badge

            Re: Alternate world line

            I'm guessing you haven't made it to management and have a chip on your shoulder about it as opposed to people who haven't made management because they don't want to.

            1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

              Re: Alternate world line

              Yes because i believe in merit being the primary selector for positions .

              Most managers have no actual skills for the people they are managing, and wouldnt even be able to get an interview or perform the tasks they are supposedly supervising.

              ANyone in a skilled role, knows this to be true.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Alternate world line

                Management is a specific skill, which is IME only slightly related to do with the technical skills of the people you are managing. So yes, being a manager should be on merit, but the merit is because you are a good communicator and can do stuff like help people develop their careers, not because you are the best techie in the team.

                I've had good managers and bad managers, and the best ones have been the ones who have no pretence to being a good techie, but instead understand the skill of management and how to best support them.

                Yes, have been a manager, but am not now, so have seen from both sides.

                1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

                  Re: Alternate world line

                  AC: Management is a specific skill, which is IME only slightly related to do with the technical skills of the people you are managing.

                  cow: YOu are confusing the difference bewteen understanding the task and skillfullying directing people to complete the goal because said manager understands the problemspace, and simply giving random directions.

                  AC: Yes, have been a manager, but am not now, so have seen from both sides.

                  cow: That says it all does it. You sit on the side of the fence that is nothing more than a fraud than an actual valuable skilled resource.

  8. Tron Silver badge

    It may be a security issue.

    You can physically secure a site. You don't know who is looking over the shoulder of an employee at home.

    Employers have always chosen terms of employment. WFH was a pandemic novelty. Most couldn't even then. It was always bigger in the tech sector.

    Ultimately, it is their company, not yours. If they want to organise it that way and pay people to work that way, it is their choice. If you want to work at home, look for an employer who is happy with that.

    1. Persona Silver badge

      Re: It may be a security issue.

      It will be interesting to see how this develops. Some firms will pursue a WFH policy, some will have people working in the offices, and others will have a hybrid policy. Give it a few years and the effects should be quite measurable.

    2. FIA Silver badge

      Re: It may be a security issue.

      If you want to work at home, look for an employer who is happy with that.

      The problem arises when the employer who is happy with that suddenly changes their mind it seems. Dell were touting their WFH policy until fairly recently. Had I got a job there then found that changed in a matter of months I wouldn't be too impressed.

      The real solution is to work in a country with workers rights that prevent this kind of thing. I work from home, it would take a contract change to make me come back to the office, which I would have to agree to. (I wouldn't).

      This means companies don't offer WFH on a whim as it has consequences, but as an employee I don't worry about suddenly having to be forced back into an office.

      1. Phil Koenig Bronze badge

        Re: It may be a security issue.

        FIA:

        Dell were touting their WFH policy until fairly recently.

        I said at the beginning of the pandemic that a lot of companies would eventually figure out why WFH is not optimal for many roles and workers.

        We all know why the workers like it. That does not automatically make it best for all companies and roles.

        Over time, I think we will see fewer and fewer companies allowing it on a blanket basis.

        But for people like the gentleman here who mentioned he was coding for 48 years - I think it's safe to say that they know how to pace their work and workload and if their role doesn't entail a lot of in-person brainstorming without having to stare at a silly screen to see who you are interacting with and what their expressions are and so on, then I think that's a good example of a role/employee which would be well-suited for it.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: It may be a security issue.

          So he has to stick to simple stuff? It wouldn't be possible for people like him to cooperate, globally to produce something as complex as a computer operating system? And if they did it would be an impossibly buggy monstrosity, completely different to the product of teams working together in an office? OK, got that.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It may be a security issue.

          But, you know, there's actual research now about WFH. And it did not measure any decrease in productivity for tech firms.

          This is about managers ignoring research and doing what feels right. So brilliance, or a power trip, or ignorance. Pick.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: WFH was a pandemic novelty

      Really? News to me.

      I worked from home from 2004 to 2020 apart from one short period (May 2010 to Feb 2012). When Covid hit, I retired. I'd had enough. Coding from 1972 to 2020, 48 years.

      Most of my employers were very happy for me to WFH as it reduced their office costs.

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: It may be a security issue.

      "Ultimately, it is their company, not yours."

      There is, however, a matter of public interest here*. We have spent decades building a system in which businesses are compressed into cities and require workers to commute into them. The commuting radius of a large city may cover a few thousand square miles. Those commutes have an environmental cost. In practice the city governments who are trying to meet those costs do so by trying to beat up the commuters. In the UK wie have the Low Emission Zones - London is on and Sheffield has joined in. As it happens it was two news reports from Sheffield that put me onto this many years ago. One was from someone whose job was to bring businesses into the city, jubilant at signing up another big employer. The second was someone responsible for roads complaining about the ever increasing traffic. Clearly they'd not got together to look at what mattered to Sheffield as a whole.

      I've heard the arguments that congregating businesses into cities boosts efficiency by improving communications. That argument stretches back into the medieval (I have a recently purchased history book right beside me making that argument amongst others). It wasn't an absolute argument then - the weavers of York and Beverley ran into problems when the West Riding weavers became a serious collective competitor - and I suspect it's not an absolute argument now. Now we have tools that can enable dispersed work forces to collaborate. As I've said before, if it's possible to build an entire OS by dispersed work what serious argument can there be that something less complicated needs to bring everyone together under one office roof?

      Working at home obviously doesn't suite every role. Factory work is obviously one for which it doesn't work and, as a sometime lab. scientist, I know lab. work is another. I've read that some landlords of buildings that were, until recently, tenanted by financial businesses are now trying to attract bioscience businesses; they at least have worked out where office work is likely to head in the long run.

      But returning to the public interest - what should be the public response, or at least the response of governments which are supposed to look to the public good? They should be adopting policies that discourage the centripetal forces that make businesses congregate in this way. Raising taxes on arrangements that require commuting would be one way. Encouraging the conversion of city centre property to residential would be another so that as to minimise the loss of property values that have been one argument against WFH and also enabling commuting free options for city centre work.

      Another would be to look again at history - those rural West Riding weavers eventually ended up working in mills but still close to home as they had no option but to walk work. Currently there are a couple of mill sites quite near which have been, as so often happens, been granted planning permission for housing as brownfield sites. With the closure of almost all the mills this has become commuter country, ill-served by public transport,** dependent on commuting by car and at the same time with much old housing unable to provide home EV| charging to support future commuting needs. Planning policy needs to be reversed so those brownfield sites can become workplaces again, either for single businesses or shared between multiple businesses.

      * As a retiree that happens to be my sole interest now.

      ** Even if it were returned to the levels of the 1950s it s wouldn't suffice, we are between several conurbations so that huv-and-spoke public transport wouldn't work. This village and many others like it are, in their own right, hubs with multiple spokes.

      1. PinchOfSalt

        Re: It may be a security issue.

        I think we're missing something here that I experience every day whilst working remotely.

        There is no better communication style than face to face in the same place. This isn't an opinion, it's a well researched subject over decades.

        Our 'collaboration tools' are good, but they don't replace that innate ability to communicate.

        Neither do they allow the flow of information that happens in a face to face situation. Take a group of 10 people and put them on a call and everyone must speak one at a time. Put them in a room, and they can slightly break away from the group and form smaller groups. Those people can move from group to group by watching who is which group and slightly overhearing what the subject under discussion is. That can't happen online with anything like the fluidity of face to face.

        I live in the middle of nowhere and it costs me £100 a day to go into London, so I don't do it every day. Equally, I work with many clients who are no in the country, so I have limited need to go into London. However, every time I sit down with a group of people face to face, I can see that advantage, and so I do it as often as possible.

        Where it doesn't work is exactly what they've said. being in an office 60% of the time doesn't actually change the dynamic at all. Get 5 people together and 2 of them are not in the office, so everyone has to go back to being online - or run risk of a two tier discussion to the frustration of those who aren't in the room who can't participate to the same quality. Or it needs to be planned a long time in advance so that everyone clears their personal schedules so they can travel into the office - which takes a considerable amount of organising.

        To round it off, perhaps I'm suggesting that we should not just talk about the quantity of communication (the majority of discussion is that) and focus more on the quality of communication.

  9. SIP My Drink

    "A poll of more than 2,500 Amazon workers last month found that 91 percent were unimpressed by the RTO mandate, a stark contrast to the "nine out of ten" workers Garman said he had spoken with who supported the policy."

    9 out of 10 high level execs maybe?... Gotcha...

    1. DS999 Silver badge

      If he took that informal poll Friday

      He'd easily find 9 out of 10 supporting the policy - because the people who were in the office Friday would be people who were already coming into the office five days a week. If you had a four day a week mandate you'd find 9 out of 10 people would choose Friday as their day to WFH.

      1. Matt Palmer

        Re: If he took that informal poll Friday

        I come in on Friday precisely because there are fewer people in the office. It's much less distracting and noisy.

        But yes, clearly most people don't come in on a Friday for some reason...

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: If he took that informal poll Friday

          Yeah, personal I'd choose a Monday :-)

          Luckily, my job is "on the road" so I never go into "the office" even if I can't WFH.

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      "9 out of 10 high level execs maybe?... Gotcha..."

      He specified "workers" :-) The sort of "workers" people like him may notice will be reception staff and security, possibly even janitorial, none of whom can WFH anyway.

      1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

        You could get rid of all those staff types including the CEO if everyone worked from home.

      2. Anonymous Anti-ANC South African Coward Silver badge

        Janitors...

        The only Janitor that can successfully WFC* is Roger Wilco.

        *Work From Closet

  10. CapeCarl

    Inverted subtitle logic?

    "It's our way or the highway."

    Shouldn't that be "The highway (as in commute) or your way (find another job that allows WFH)."

    ...The original subtitle didn't seem to compile to the proper bytecode in my non-over clocked brain.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Inverted subtitle logic?

      Probably need to include employee commute in company’s carbon footprint, and carbon levy, to get executives to do a u-turn…

      1. Richard 12 Silver badge
        Windows

        Re: Inverted subtitle logic?

        Well, also need an estimate of the office and home-office running cost footprint. Home and Office HVAC and lighting isn't free.

        Of course, the real reason for these sudden U-turns is that they've rented huge amounts of office space, and admitting it's far larger and more expensive than they actually needed would be a huge hit to the ego.

        Or they're personally invested in commercial property, and have just realised it's becoming worthless.

        There's more than a few large skyscrapers where the bottom ½ to ⅔ is completely empty.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Inverted subtitle logic?

          "Well, also need an estimate of the office and home-office running cost footprint. Home and Office HVAC and lighting isn't free."

          Good point. All those people working from home in a house that is very likely normally unoccupied is a lot of small scale extra HVAC running instead of probably much more efficient "group HVAC" for the office building. Does it balance out the extra the additional commute carbon footprint? I suspect people at home and not commuting and companies downsizing would be the smaller carbon footprint in the long term. Short term, this big empty offices still need HVAC and lighting even if only 20-50% occupied so it may fall the other way in the short to medium term.

          For those younger members of the workforce, especially those defending AWS and referencing the COVID lock downs, it used to be called "telecommuting"[*] nearly 50 years ago and was always going to be "the future" of office type work. Inroads have been made in those 4 or 5 decades, the pandemic just accelerated it.

          * I think in the 2000's, they tried to call it eWorking when anything even vaguely related to a computer got called e-something :-)

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Inverted subtitle logic?

            "they tried to call it eWorking when anything even vaguely related to a computer got called e-something"

            Perhaps it could be retrindified by calling it iWorking.

            1. doublelayer Silver badge

              Re: Inverted subtitle logic?

              The i prefix was early 2010s, after the e prefix but far from trendy now. For today's trend, you have to capitalize it and stick an A at the beginning.

        2. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

          Re: Inverted subtitle logic?

          "Or they're personally invested in commercial property, and have just realised it's becoming worthless."

          This, exactly. My home HVAC usage does not change just because I'm gone, and the laptop would use the same both in the office and at home.

          At least I don't have to worry about it. Where I work, the company's lease came up for renewal during the worst of covid and they cancelled 2 of the 3 floors they leased. There isn't room for us there anymore.

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: Inverted subtitle logic?

            "This, exactly. My home HVAC usage does not change just because I'm gone,"

            Is that because you have a "low grade" heat pump system where it's often best to keep it on all the time because it takes so long to heat the place or for other heating systems, do you otherwise keep the house at the same temperature all day whether you are there or not? Depending on the climate and quality of insulation, the latter is probably costing you money.

        3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Inverted subtitle logic?

          "a huge hit to the ego"

          Not just huge hit to the ego, also some very difficult questions from investors enquiring about the cost of it all. In fact some of the public pronouncements such as the one at the centre of this article may be aimed at them as much as at employees, maybe even more so.

      2. Nifty

        Re: Inverted subtitle logic?

        "need to include employee commute in company’s carbon footprint"

        Perhaps a scheme where the biggies could trade carbon credits between their server & AI farms and employee commuter miles?

        1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

          Re: Inverted subtitle logic?

          Wrong answer.

          The daily work start needs to begin when one leaves home. not when one arrives at the office.

          This will solve so many of the worlds problems its not funny.

          Carbon will go down, traffic will go down, public financing of roads will go down, people will eat better and get sick less...

          1. Oneman2Many Bronze badge

            Re: Inverted subtitle logic?

            "The daily work start needs to begin when one leaves home. not when one arrives at the office."

            So people who choose to live closer to work should be penalised for doing so ? Whereas a person who decides to drive 2 or 3 hours a day gets paid for sitting in traffic ?

            1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

              Re: Inverted subtitle logic?

              The argument of choosing where to live works both sides. Since an employee can't typically do much else while commuting, they are effectively giving up their time for free to their employer. How is that reasonable?

  11. Ryan D

    Alexa

    “Which organization wants to piss off their employees this week with an RTO demand?”

    Alexa:”I’m sorry Dave, I can’t provide a list this long. Would you like to order the official biography of Jeff Bezos on Kindle instead?”

  12. jvf

    Just do it

    Stop whining and get back to work.

    1. chivo243 Silver badge

      Re: Just do it

      I tried for 16 months to get a job, any job onsite, even one with a 90 minute commute each way, couldn't get past interview 2. This month got a job for a fully remote company, I think there are two physical offices around the world. Happy to have it!

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Just do it

        Your employer sounds a bit like my daughter's - they have an HQ in Dublin and, reputedly, a UK office whose reality she's not actually confirmed.

        Slightly different story but she'd left a working from home job just before Covid for one with a stupid commute (why???!!!) which obviously turned into a work at home job for the duration. After the duration they wanted to go back to their old ways but she'd realised by then what she'd let herself in for with that job.

    2. sabroni Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: Stop whining and get back to work.

      Fuck off.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cloud

    The guys got his head in the cloud

    Idiot

    Rich yeah

    But still an idiot

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Cloud

      To be fair he's part of AWS so it's his job to have his head in the cloud. As to whether that's where it actually is is a different matter.

    2. Nifty

      Re: Cloud

      "The guys got his head in the cloud"

      Cloud cuckoo land? And to think that in Switzerland and Bavaria since the 1700s, a great farmer's winter work from home job was making cuckoo clocks.

  14. Terry 6 Silver badge

    Selection process?

    If you want to reduce head count but want to keep the most useful staff or those in roles difficult to recruit, encouraging people to leave probably isn't the wisest choice. i.e. it's the most employable who'll b****r off and those who would find getting a new job more worrying who'll comply.

  15. Electric Panda

    My guess is that in practice this will be subject to all kinds of caveats, exemptions, edge cases and plenty of people will be spared.

    1. doublelayer Silver badge

      I think your assumption is exactly what they intend but won't get. My guess is that they know there are some people they don't want to lose who will not agree to come into the office and they figure they'll give them an exception and never speak of it again. However, without telling managers that they can do that, they won't get it. Even if they did, workers who aren't aware might not bother asking, or managers might find they can't get an exception approved. So while I think they're planning on exceptions, I think they'll approve far fewer than they're willing to because of bureaucratic inefficiency.

      What I mostly expect is rampant noncompliance. People who are really unwilling to return to the office will likely try not coming in to see if anyone gets mad. I don't know what they'll do about that, though in previous rounds covered here, their response seems to have been sending scary emails suggesting that you will be fired any time now, sometimes to the wrong people, then not necessarily following through on the threat.

      1. Bebu
        Windows

        Choices

        there are some people they don't want to lose who will not agree to come into the office and they figure they'll give them an exception and never speak of it again

        Talented and capable people may well choose not to work in an organisation run by arseholes, quietly moving to greener, better tended pastures and ultimately the arseholes* will inevitably fade from existence as the snark they had invoked was a boojum.

        * from the archives of the bleeding bloody obvious: clearly the only thing anyone can reasonably expect to emanate from an arsehole is shit.

        1. theblackhand

          Re: Choices

          "Talented and capable people may well choose not to work in an organisation run by arseholes"

          People who have been through these culls know the signs and will be looking for opportunities elsewhere.

          Many of the talented people they want to keep won't be told that they are safe until it's too late because senior management are worried that the wrong people will find out about the cull...

        2. Phil Koenig Bronze badge

          Re: Choices

          Bebu:

          ...quietly moving to greener, better tended pastures...

          Sure, but those pastures have to actually exist.

          I've been saying for years now that companies would eventually get tired of everyone expecting to work remotely.

          That time is now upon us.

          From the employer's PoV, WFH works for some roles and people, not for others. This is not a big surprise. Companies will vary in how much flexibility they are open to on that.

          But in the mid-term, I suspect those pastures will be shrinking in comparison to the pandemic emergency era. We shall see.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Choices

            "Sure, but those pastures have to actually exist."

            They do. Some businesses have managers, not manglers.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Half-right.

      Uncle Andy wants to take the company back to pre-pandemic office occupancy. Managers still have discretion for allowing trips to the dentist, childrens nativity plays and the like. But the expectation is that employees default to working from the contractual location of employment.

      I assume this will be enforced by managers and hr using data from badging in. Metrics from badge swipe systems will inform of the trends.

      Somewhere as soup-to-nuts as Amazon always has adjustments it wants to make in different areas in the business; one whole business line closes whilst a few floors down, they can’t hire fast enough.

  16. Brad Ackerman

    You can have WFH when you pry it from my cold, dead hands?

    Your proposal is acceptable, Matt. And as an employee of one of your competitors, thank you for helping to make sure our recruiters have a healthy candidate pool.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It’s a management thing

    I am sure the 9 out of 10 that wanted RTO were management. I have experienced managers wanting people back in the office because they have problems managing a remote team. The upshot was that their management style was to check you were doing long days based on your bum being on a seat. Peeking over your shoulder to check you weren’t online gaming. And shouting in your face if something was late. People need to be in the office for this management style.

  18. Phil Koenig Bronze badge

    Not surprising, really

    I've been saying since the beginning of the pandemic that business owners would soon get tired of all the issues with remote workers.

    Remote working sounds like a nice idea for workers but there are a lot of downsides to it as well, many of which have nothing to do with workers being lazy etc.

    Obviously business-owners are now figuring this out, even if they supported it previously.

  19. Spanners
    Facepalm

    We need to wonder why

    Full time RTO is irrational for a number of reasons, including

    1. It is less productive

    2. It is more expensive for the employer

    So what are the real reasons behind it? The first reasons suspected were that empowering workers disempowers low quality middle managers and lowers the cost of office space which makes the landlord friends of some CEOs marginally less rich.

    I see it as somewhat of a "CEO fashion trend". They can't see how it will affect their $Xmillion bonuses so it is just a game. When some companies make increased profits by allowing WFH this may change in the future!

    In the meantime, we can all enjoy watching C-level stupidities harming big corporations.

    1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

      Re: We need to wonder why

      WRONG...

      You dont understand these managements are primarily scared about their own position. Why would they care about profits if they dont have a job at the company in the first place.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Alexa, dont forget to feed the pooch"

    They "sell" remote computing, remote "shopping" and remote "working" (Amazon Mechanical Turk ) but their own staff have to be on prem.

    Is all that remote stuff they peddle a bit shit then?

  21. streaky

    Culture..

    "We've observed that it's easier for our teammates to learn, model, practice, and strengthen our culture; collaborating, brainstorming, and inventing are simpler and more effective"

    Your culture is bull, give me an interesting problem, pay me a fair wage and - most importantly - leave me alone.

    By the way, citations to Atlassian: you'd think they'd know a thing or two about this sort of thing.

    Our company hasn't yet, but I have a long-standing contract that says I'm WFH from before covid so boohoohoo if my employer ever pulls a dumb stunt like this, won't affect me. They're (rightly) terrified of doing it with software folk though.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Foolish

    Stupid and crass remark from someone who must be out of touch or a paranoid narcissist. This is the kind of high-handed behaviour that is symptomatic of decline. Why? Because the story is different for each individual. There will be valuable staff who took the job because they could work from home and going to the office everyday is not workable for them. It should be about productivity at least and better about outcomes. From my observations there is little difference in productivity for the majority.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ironic...

    AWS services are cloudy and can be anywhere, but their workers are not.

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Please do go work elsewhere. Breaking Amazon would be good for the world. Other employers are available.

    Particularly if you have the ability.

  25. Anonymous Anti-ANC South African Coward Silver badge

    C*O = work from home

    Normal workers = work from office

    that's what they want...

    1. streaky

      In all fairness I don't think that's valid - operational C-levels in my experience tend to be the up at the crack of dawn, if not first in the office something close to it types. Which is fine - but they also do a completely different job and don't tend to get called at 11pm or worse to fix problems.

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    A cloud company not wanting its staff to work remotely...

    ...is not good optics.

    Lucky for Amazon, Azure is even worse. And yes, that is actually possible.

  27. Vax Merstappen

    I work at one of those other places and report to the office five days a week, plus working many nights and weekends. I would gladly take Amazon money for the same hours I'm spending in the office at my current gig.

  28. bigtimehustler

    Well, he would obviously change his tune if all 95 percent that polled they don't like it just left. If enough people refuse, it won't happen.

  29. DoctorPaul Bronze badge

    The missing piece

    WFH can be very successful as long as one key component is in place, namely a competent manager. Ah, just saw the problem.

    1. Oneman2Many Bronze badge

      Re: The missing piece

      "WFH can be very successful as long as one key component is in place, namely a competent manager. Ah, just saw the problem."

      Or remote workers who act professionals.

      1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

        Re: The missing piece

        Remote workers taking the piss are easy to spot. Just look at the quality of the work. Set milestones and see if they are met. Skivers will skive wherever they are. Being in the office won't change that.

      2. streaky

        Re: The missing piece

        Well, quite, get better HR and have them worrying about real problems not imagined ones.

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Kids today, eh

    In my day we had to emigrate across the oceans on log rafts just to get a job interview in a gravel pit….

  31. RJX

    "Return to office" and "working together" are a smokescreen for cutting employees

    Our HR department started spouting that nonsense at an "all hands" meeting about how being in the same building fostered cooperation and achieved better results. When they asked for questions I raised my hand and asked if that meant we were not working cooperatively and were getting poor results when working with our fellow employees in other offices. I then helpfully added "Because you know, we're really working remotely with them and they don't know if we're in the office or at home."

    That was the last meeting I was invited to during my two week notice of quitting. :) Everyone was thinking it but I was the only one who could say it out loud without fear of repercussions. I probably got the check box for "Do not rehire" checked. Don't care because there were many reasons why I quit.

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