UK ponders USB-C as common charging standard UK government has kicked off a consultation on whether the country should have a common standard for charging electrical devices, and if this needs to be the same as the USB-C connector the EU adopted. In a call for evidence this month, the Office for Product Safety and Standards within the Department for Business and Trade …
Yes absolutely, hard to believe it took so long to end that nonsense.
What's equally hard to believe is that this even needs a discussion. Obviously, we should follow the EU and mandate USB-C for everything that they do.
I'd like to see it on not just phones, but power tools, e-bikes, scooters, mini-fridges, anything that has a lithium battery below a certain size (e.g. 200Wh, whereby charging on a 100W charger would be impractical, although USB-C could in theory go up to 480W with 48V 10A) or an external DC power supply below 100W. Get rid of all the e-waste from wall-warts and inline AC adapters
No doubt some will be saying it's a Brexit Bonus that we get to waste all this money on having a 'consultation' on this matter, when previously the common-sense decision from the EU would have applied by default.
Or at least require wall warts to be labelled with the damn product that they belong to. Is this for a drill, if so, which one, or a printer, or a switch, or an older external USB drive?
(old timey Cirucs Announcer voice) Spin the wheel and take your chances, fry your device or save your data? You'll never know until you place "wall wart of fortune".
I'll take my pill and settle down now.
There is a standardised marker that most "wall warts" adhere to for barrel jacks. It indicates the polarity, voltage and maximum current that the power supply can deliver and the device requires. A device labeled 12V 1A will happily work from a power supply labeled 12V 5A, so long as the polarity is correct.
However, it does not tell you the size of pin/barrel i.e. which type of barrel plug will actually fit in the socket.
There is, but a lot of devices helpfully forget to note these requirements on the product itself or in the documentation. So if the cable for the product has been lost, or more likely it stopped working and the owner binned it before asking you to source a replacement, it can be difficult to figure out where to find this information.
I recently tried to help solve a problem where two quite similar Dell laptops with barrel adapters needed opposite polarities but the same size of cable. The office that had purchased them thought the cables were interchangeable because they were both from Dell and the same size, so when one adapter broke, they cycled some around. It didn't work, though fortunately none of the laptops broke from it. This is why I want USB-C charging on my laptops.
USB-C isn't perfect and could use some standardization. For instance, I'm tired of devices where only some of the ports can charge the device. I don't think it will break the device if the wrong port is used, but it's still a recipe for annoyance. Compared to previous methods, it's still less frustrating.
Yeah, the whole PD thing is less than transparent to people who think "it's just a USB C cable . . ." because they're not all equal and neither are the sockets viz the mac Studio with Thunderbolt on the rea and "standard" USB on the front; plus a lack of USB A which is still very popular.
Then you are lucky in comparison. I've found lots that don't list any of those on the device, and their manual only mentions one of them. Great, a 9V power supply. Current, polarity, barrel size, none of those are listed, but I can at least limit myself too 9V. The Dell laptops I mentioned, in addition to not listing their power requirements on the case, didn't even have model numbers there. In order to find the details, I had to find the model number through Windows and look it up on Dell's website.
But the range of voltages they use, that at least one I've got somewhere is AC, that the outer barrel is not insulated, the ease with which some diameters can be confused - at least visually. A long list of negatives.
Also, even if the physical barrel fits, even if the right polarity, plugging a heavy load into a low capacity charger can blow it almost immediately. The negotiation part of USB does a lot to prevent that even being possible, let alone likely.
This, the lack of a readily readable/visible indicator really irritates me with the 12v adaptors all with the same sized plug, much liked by network equipment vendors, such as Draytek.
https://www.draytek.co.uk/products/accessories/power-supply-unit#specification
Other than taking a magnifying glass to the label all four variants look identical, and you don’t want to be using a 12v 1A adapter (WiFi AP) with a router where at least a 12v 2.5A adapter is required for reliable operation. (Made the mistake once of grabbing a 12v 2A adapter from a dead BT ADSL router, it worked, but the Draytek router would then fail in odd ways).
Interestingly, USB doesn’t really help, as you still need to double check wall wart and cable are correctly rated.
> Interestingly, USB doesn’t really help, as you still need to double check wall wart and cable are correctly rated.
In theory, a USB-PD device can check that the wall wart and cable are correctly rated. And either charge slower, or just not turn on. And could indicate that to the user.
In theory. Whether anyone implements that properly in practice is a different question.
"In theory. Whether anyone implements that properly in practice is a different question."
They do. I use a multiport USB B/USB C charger. The ports and cables are capable of supporting different power output. I can plug in my laptop at 45W, or a lower power device at 2W and it all works. User facing issues are minimal. Only some of the cables with a USB C ending will charge at 45W, so you have to know which ones work. And, we have one and only one device that refuses to charge at all of USB-C/PD to USB-C; it has to use USB-B or a dumb USB-C; why the PD doesn't just default to 2W charging I don't know.
It's been great; a single charger in the kitchen and we can do everything -- laptop, tablet, phone, powerbanks, bike lights. All of a single wall socket, kept in a wire basket with charging leads coming out everywhere.
> And, we have one and only one device that refuses to charge …
Don’t tell me that’s a. iPad…
I’ve also standardised on a multiport charger and a set of leads that are supposed to stay with it (we now have 3, lounge, kitchen and bedroom but with three others I the house things are quite so simple…
Catch is it is tone of the newer iPads that regularly takes exception to the (non-Apple) charging point and will only charge once it is connected to an Apple wall wart via an Apple cable; a couple charges and then it is happy to use the multiport for a few weeks…
The other device that doesn’t like the multiport at all is the Fitbit.
Just done a bulk purchase of new charging cables, as students went back to uni with a larger selection of cables etc. than I anticipated, plus more devices using USB-C rather than lightning… Obviously, bulk purchase meant I could standardise on a new but different cable for charging, although I will still label them, just so that at some future data I or someone tries to use them for data..
Absolutely! The amusing – no, exasperating – thing is when the device instructions explicitly tell you to only use the supplied charger for fear of damaging your device, when the charger is a generic, third-party product. It is not uncommon for chargers to be accidentally thrown out when they are not identifiable with a particular device, so forcing lazy manufacturers/vendors to label them properly would, of itself, cut down on electronic waste. But it would, no doubt, be unpopular with them, as it would restrict revenue from the lucrative business of selling replacement chargers.
But, do the batteries have a USB-C port on them for easy charging, or do you need to use a special Bosch charger?
That is my point, that the special charger should NOT be needed. Just charge power tool batteries straight from USB-C. The PPS specification is specifically designed for charging batteries without needing bulky power converters at the device end. CC/CV charging is supported directly via USB-C!
PPS only supports up to 21 V, that is just enough for a 5S lipo or li-ion battery. It wouldn't work for anything higher.
Also for anything more than a single cell you need balance charging which is sometimes done in the battery pack but is often done in the charger. So the PPS functions are only useful up to a point, you would still need extra circuitry and converters in the battery pack to be able to balance charge.
You are correct, but it's hardly a show stopper. The battery could balance itself very slowly over time with low-power resistors and a standard balancing circuit on a tiny PCB inside the battery case. But balancing is rarely needed these days as cell manufacturing has become so much more precisely repeatable.
And presumably with the upcoming 48V USB-C spec, PPS will be able to do 8S lipos.
In any case, if you wanted a fast balance charge, fine, buy the special Bosch charger. But if you just want to be able to use the drill you bought, it'd be nice if the battery itself had a USB-C port on it so that you can use a phone/laptop charger. Or if not the battery, then the drill could have the USB-C port. Or if not the drill, then a special compact charging dock, which should be cheap as it is only a passthrough USB-C PPS sink and maybe some more balancing if really necessary.
Balancing absolutely is still needed and your idea of slow balance charging isn't good. What do you mean by "low power resistors" being used for balance charging anyway? Balancing is even more necessary on high current draw devices like power tools and again necessary on battery packs that are abused, like most power tools are.
By going with your idea then a pack that is even mildly out of balance every time it is discharged will then have a lower capacity unless you leave it to trickle charge. If you want the full capacity you have to wait for it to slowly balance itself when you could just use a better charger or balance circuit that does it properly.
From being around tradespeople a very common complaint is that batteries and tools from different companies aren't compatible. Never once have I heard them complaining about the battery chargers, let alone wanting them to be usb C. Most of them wouldn't want to have to use a phone charger and USB C cable, especially not because of the fragility compared to the current method of charging power tool batteries. It also isn't all that difficult for them to keep the charger with the power tool and all the other stuff they need to take around with them.
This complaint/idea of yours seems to come from someone who only uses tools occasionally and casually. Regardless of any kind of tough USB C connector or standard, the current methods of connecting and charging these batteries is much more robust without small pins and contacts to get filled with dirt, dust or sawdust or damaged and is physically much more resistant to impacts.
You are trying to force a connector into an application that doesn't make sense.
Quite a few are coming with USB-C these days. It's not hard to have a boost converter inside the case(*) if you need to charge 8S and having the balance functions in the charger makes zero sense when it can all be in the battery pack for 50p and matched to the battery
(*) I've got a couple of USB-A devices with variable output from 4-35V that cost a whole £140 with fancy moulded case, screw terminal outputs and display of op volts and current.
Obviously they're current limited on the input but useful for circuit development. The parts box has spare modules do to the same for 2A (5V-12V in) and 8A at 50p and £1.20 apiece for when I'm building stuff. It means I can just setup to have a universal input and power most of the low current stuff off a microUSB (only because the cables are cheap - USBC panel sockets are a fraction more expensive and slightly more of a faff to fit into a case. Either way it beats the pants off the bad old days of having to build around dry cells that leaked if you forgot about them for a couple of years)
Definitely agree about power tools; however, would not be surprised if the resulting standard uses the same connector for 12v, 18v and 20v systems so people are either overpowering, or more likely under powering by trying to run an 18v tool off a (cheap) 12v battery…
The nice thing about power tools is that there are several (?) industry lead standardisation initiatives:
https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/new-eu-power-tool-battery-rules-from-2025.147451/
https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/en/index.php
I think the only reason for the UK to adopt an adaptor standard, is just to confirm the UK is the same as the EU and thus is not a dumping ground for old and weird.
Unfortunately, USB-C connectors are extremely fragile and sensitive to contamination. They're no good for tools.
Of course they could come up with a USB-T "tough" spec for charging. Just one more connector with a new pinout. Surely it will not be obsolete soon. And a faster USB-TSS for tools like boroscopes that need video. Surely it will not be obsolete soon.
You could build a USB-C with an outer casing that fulfilled the rugged requirements with the actually power going through the USB still. When you didn't need the rugged, you could open the casing manually and still use a normal USB-C connector. Kind of like the XLR/Audio jack combined socket, although that is for compatibility.
Ultimately, though, you have to wonder whether the better solution would be just to use wireless charging. The most robust connectors are surely the ones you don't need at all.
Well, it’s a real shame that the EU are requiring USB-C to be used in harsh environments then.
Because the Common Charging Directive does apply to “……headphones, headsets…..and earbuds”. In industrial environment, many ear defender units include noise-cancelling electronics. The law applies, and in particular “fit for purpose” applies too. If the connector fails, repeatedly, within a short time, the product will be returned under guarantee. Presumably, manufacturers will have tonsimply stop selling noise-cancelling industrial ear defenders in the EU, because there is no legally compliant way to do so. Passive ear defenders only, which just aren’t as good, because you have to click the thing open to hear your colleagues. So a bunch of EU industrial workers will have their hearing degraded, over decades, untraceable to the EU regulation. Sucks to live in the EU.
There’s probably *thousands* of these edge-cases, of which no human on the planet is aware of more than a tiny minority. I personally have no idea how USB-C will function in harsh environments. I also haven’t thought through any issues with hot environments, or humidity environments, or medical regulatory, or a semi-infinite number of real-world product issues. That’s why product design engineers exist. I suggest we let them do their job, rather than being regulatory-forced by lobbying of man-children with no experience other than cable-tangles on their Android playing World of Warcraft.
"Presumably, manufacturers will have tonsimply stop selling noise-cancelling industrial ear defenders in the EU, because there is no legally compliant way to do so"
Unless perhaps they have some kind of dustcap or cover which protects the charging socket while the ear defenders are in use in a harsh environment - much as they would need to have for the charging socket on existing units if dust/moisture ingress is an issue?
But why do we need to bother having the discussion at all, taking up valuable legislative time for something which will never be an issue (since no manufacturer of phones is going to say "Ooh, the UK doesn't have a rule about connectors, let's make them a different batch of phones with this weird 26 1/2 pin connector in it") rather than using parliamentary time to discuss issues which actually need their time like lessening poverty or improving the economy?
This is yet another case of the Government giving Parliament some dross to discuss to stop them from having time to talk about things which actually matter to the people of the UK. It's been happening since Parliaments existed when the Monarch did it, now the Government does it instead.
It's why backbenchers have to have a lottery to get their bills discussed, and the opposition only gets one day a week to introduce bills, otherwise it's all Government time.
NOTE:
Government - the ruling party's ministerial group
Parliament - the rest of the MPs not in the Government plus the House of Lords
Backbenchers - House of Commons MPs (the House of Lords usually don't introduce legislation any more by custom)
Opposition - the second-largest party, referred to as "His/Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition" officially
You don't need to mandate it, since that is what is happening now. No company will bother making a UK specific version of their product, so the inevitable outcome is that the UK will have to 'mandate' USB C. If the UK government actually wanted any input on the standard they would need to still be in the EU. As it is the UK will just have to put up with whatever the EU mandates for anything, with no input into the decision.
The joys of regaining sovereignty.
I have actually used at least five different diameters of coaxial connectors. Each was technically correct for the application. If someone wants to manufacture something with an odd size of connector I as a consumer can choose to buy it or not. If the manufacturer decides they would do better using a more standard connector than that's also fine.
> I have actually used at least five different diameters of coaxial connectors. Each was technically correct for the application. If someone wants to manufacture something with an odd size of connector I as a consumer can choose to buy it or not. If the manufacturer decides they would do better using a more standard connector than that's also fine.
Customer choice to ensure a common connection worked so well before the EU got involved.\s
It is better for the environment if you don't need to have a separate charge for each item. If a company does not have to provide a power supply it could increase their margin.
Or it could decrease their margin as they don't have the opportunity to sell you a replacement power supply when your old one dies and you have to go to them for the proprietary connector.
It's why places like Amazon managed to take off once it moved out of their book-only phase, hawking "universal" mobile phone charger sets used to be big business before most non-Apple manufacturers standardised on Micro-USB
Well you say that, but why do AA and AAA standards exist when they have the same voltage and are almost the same size? Why not standardise on AA? AAA batteries don't last as long but often get used in applications where AA batteries would fit perfectly fine (like TV remotes) - it's almost like the battery manufacturing lobby want TV makers to use an inferior battery so they can sell more of them in the future...
The AA vs AAA conundrum…
As you have noted with remotes, phones, etc. it seems to be manufacturers have tossed a coin.
From my experience, the only good application for rechargeable AAA cells is things like telephones where they spend most of their time on the charger and there is little expectation they will need to support more than an hour of continuous use.
There is the other aspect, mamely the C and D batteries, the rechargeable version of which were for many years simply wrappers for an AA battery or multiple AAA batteries.
"From my experience, the only good application for rechargeable AAA cells "
Now you are wandering into more confusing waters since your standard "dry" (i.e. normally alkaline) non rechargeable cells have a different cell voltage to rechargeables
There are a lot of devices designed for AA or AAA alakaline "dry" cells which just do not work with AA or AAA NiMH (or older NiCd) rechargeables because the rechargeables have a nominal cell voltage of 1.2V. The dry cells have somewhat higher nominal 1.5V cell voltage. The two (alkaline vs rechargeable) also have very different discharge curves. Rechargeables tend to much "flatter".
Using AA or AAA rechargeables in devices not designed for rechargeables can lead to them malfunctioning, constantly saying "low battery" or just not working at all.
It all comes down the fundemental difference in cell chemistry and not the physical form factor (i.e. AA or AAA size).
I think you are adding a different dimension namely, the interchangeability of single-use and rechargeable batteries.
In 25+ years of using rechargeables, I've yet to encounter a device that does not work with rechargeables. However, I have encountered devices with very tight physical tolerances hence some brands of rechargeable batteries didn't fit because of their slightly larger size. But never had a device which the manufacturer has labelled as "do not use rechargeable batteries" fail or misbehave with a rechargeable.
Given the initial voltages and discharge curves of the various different chemistries of disposable batteries, the designer of a circuit has to allow for a level of voltage variation, which the various chemistries of rechargeable batteries fall within. From the investigations I did circa 20 years ago, I decided with many consumer goods, the warnings that vendors put on children's toys for example were simply there to legally cover themselves (and to encourage the purchase of loads of disposable batteries).
Today given rechargeable batteries are well established in the market, if a manufacturer is daft enough to sell a device that can't be run off rechargeable D/C/AA/AAA batteries they don't really have a leg to stand on, plus if it is that sensitive, they should be specifying both the battery chemistry(s) they are compatible with and the duty grade. For example with my camera flashhead, whilst it will work with most AA batteries, I only use specific rechargeables (see https://www.slrlounge.com/best-rechargeable-aa-batteries-flash-photography/ ), I say most as the really cheap batteries only typically contain enough juice to charge it 2~4 times fully and even the good alkalines batteries show a performance drop after circa 10 cycles.
In 40+ years of using them, I still encounter devices which don't work properly with rechargeables.
Particulart wireless devices which are designed to work on 1, 2 or 3 AA or AAA batteries. Most of which are supplied with alkaline batteries.
I've seen quite a few where users have experienced erratic device behaviour typical of exhuasted batteries, replaced them with fully charged AA/AAA rechargeables only for the same symptoms to return just 2 or 3 days later. Replace them with alakaline battereis and the problem goes away and they work normally for weeks/months.
https://www.tycorun.com/blogs/news/all-about-1-5v-battery#:~:text=v%20battery%20dead%3F-,How%20to%20test%3F,cutoff%20point%20for%20practical%20purposes.
The 1.2V cell voltage of NiMH (and older NiCD) batteries is within the 1.0V to 1.2V zone at which alkaline batteries are considered "exhuasted". That creates issues. Especially with devices which use buck/boost circuitry to generate higher voltages (then regulated down) to drive electronics.
That difference seems small but is in fact substantial.
That makes sense, with devices that are more sensitive to voltage.
Interestingly, I've not used rechargeables in my wireless/PMR handsets, because they use AAA batteries, hence probably accidentally avoided the problem.
With children's toys on the other hand, not seen a difference between alkaline and rechargeables other than with rechargeables the toys ran for longer before needing new batteries(*), which meant my stockpile of rechargeables and a fast charger generally outlasted the kids desire to play o, an important consideration at Christmas and birthday's....
When designing electronics which often requires 3V, 5V or more and has to work with only one or two AA/AAA size cells, yet give long life, you have think very carefully about how to design the power side and choice of cells.
A book which covers a lot of this is "Power Electronics Design Handbook Low Power Components and Applications" by Nihal Kularatna. ISBN 978-0750670739.
If you are having to triple or more the battery voltage to get a working voltage for your circuitry, that 0.3V difference in cell output is major as that ALSO gets multiplied.
The Trust wireless mouse I'm using right now uses a single AA cell (1.5V nominal). Yet that has to produce the forward voltage to drive the RED illumination LED (1.8V-2.2V typical), plus the imaging and processing ciruitry, plus the wireless interface. That 1.5V has to be significantly boosted to do anything - probably at least x 4.
Factor that in and you get figures like
New AA alkaline 1.55V x 4 = 6.2V
Almost exhausted AA alkaline (say) 1.3V x 4 = 5.2V
Fully charged AA NiMH 1.2V x 4 = 4.8V
If you need 5V to work... well you begin to see the problem.
That is probably due to the very flat discharge curve NiMH and NiCD cells have compared to alakaline non-rechargeables.
With alakaline non-rechargeables it is very much a curve starting at a peak of between 1.55V and 1.65V dropping away with use until the reach 1.0V to 1.2V when they are usually considered "exhuasted".
NiMH and NiCD start at about 1.2V per cell when fully charged and stay at 1.2V until almost exhuasted, then it rapidly drops off.
So if your flash requires a particular voltage input to charge up, as the voltage drops with use (alkaline) it will take longer to recharge the capacitors to discharge the flash. NiMH and NiCD will maintain the same charge time since the cell voltage remains the same until almost dead. Then they die very suddenly.
https://www.powerstream.com/AA-tests.htm
Cell internal impedance has entered the chat
Alkalines (and dry cells) are fairly high impedance at the best of times but it goes sky high as they discharge or are subjected to high burst currents (this was due to gas production and why "flat" dry cells used to recover enought to give another 25% if left for a day when used hard in a toy or flashlight)
The only use cases left for AA and AAA cells seems to be very low current stuff like remotes. Everywhere else is using lithium (either coin cells or LiIon)
At least it's not like the bad old days of NeverReady batteries which frequently came out of the packet already leaking or with wildly varying mAh capacity across a carton of the things if you measured them
Cell internal resitence certainly is important.
The significantly lower internal resistence of NiMH and NiCD cells is what causes they relatively high "self discharge" rate compard to alkalines.
In other words, if fully charged and left doing nothing, they go dead in a comparatively short time. This is also a limiting factor in their use in applications where long battery life is needed for devices that spend a lot of time doing nothing - such as remotes and things like wireless mice.
It also allows rechargeables to give much great current output - their main advantage over alkalines for battery powered equipment.
Lithium coin cells have very low current capability. So a lot applications they are not suitable for, particularly devices where they spend much of their time "idle" in a very low power mode. But when used, have an appreciable current drain.
Litium Ion cells come with a whole raft of issues of their own. Not least of which is their tendency to spontaneously combust if their charging "rules" are not quite strictly followed - whch requires non-trivial battery charging management circuitry matched to the cells - or get damaged or go faulty.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1jd2g4637no
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-leeds-64877955
You are being willfully ignorant.
They are not "almost the same size" as a simple caclulation would show. An AA battery has roughly 2-2.5 times the capacity of an AAA battery like for like (8.3cm3 vs 3.8cm3 by volume). There's no "conspiracy" here and competition generally keeps the manufacturers honest. The size of battery used is dictated by aesthetics and performance requirements, not some desire to "sell more batteries". Battery size is ultimately driven by chemistry, not by some ridiculous notion of industry collusion.
Government intervention and control is absolutely VITAL to protect citizen rights when commercial, capitalist companies have shown they not only act against the best interest of the individual (forcing you to buy new chargers every new phone "because") but also to society as a whole (e-waste). This notion, predominantly by right wing Americans, that Government intervention is always a bad thing is abhorrent and will ultimately lead to some very bad things. I'd even go so far as without Government control and intervention that humanity as a whole might be at risk if left to their own devices (see climate change).
@collinsl
Strange argument to choose remotes.
AAA batteries common in remotes because they are smaller than AA, thus the remote can be slimmer and lighter* which some users presumably like (unless its manufacturers just looking to save costs)
Maybe I do not watch enough TV / twiddle with remote enough**, but AAA batteries last me years (literally, its only every few years I have to change the AAA batteries) in a TV remote
* Yes, I know some remotes are needlessly massive, but there are plenty that are petite (& that is due to use of AAA use).
** Probably well below average TV consumption TBF
> The battery argument is stupid, because they are standard sizes.
Yes, but when it comes to car batteries, it’s no longer a case of simple choices…
Even having the part number, it is best to take the old battery with you and do a direct comparison: terminal placement, terminal size and type. Battery figment keying, chemistry and duty cycle appropriate to your vehicle etc.
It’s “electrical devices [which can be charged]”. Which ones, all of them? Or only the ones that you buy? What about small medical devices; glucose sensors, blood pressure monitors, hearing aids? Must those all be re-engineered *and go through re-certification, being withheld from sale until the multi-year certification process is complete*, just because some twat wants to put a different plug on them?
Electrical DIY tools, like rechargeable drills etc? Must they also be re-engineered? There’s lawnmowers and hoovers and travel irons that are rechargeable. There’s rechargeable camping *microwave ovens* nowadays. Who is paying for the new product development on *tens of thousands* of electricals? I can at least tell you the answer to that one: you are, the customer.
If USB-C PD is a good charging solution, manufacturers will use it, they don’t need to be forced. I suspect you haven’t even noticed the hilarious consequences of the last “USB-PD standardisation”. In “early adopter” houses and businesses up and down this land, you will see 240V wall-sockets with standard 3-pin *plus USB-A*. Because, well, it’s better than having a wall-wart, right? Except, just a few years later, they are essentially obsolete, but embedded into the fabric of the building, and will be there for the next forty years probably. And because USB-C has much higher power-delivery, there will be a USB-C wall wart plugged in right next to the integrated but empty USB-A. For forty years. Imagine if, 10 years ago, not just over-excitable early adopters had done this, but also the government had told *everybody* that they had to renew their house wiring with 3-pin 240V house sockets, and replace with USB-A? Why would you think “next time will be different”? I know that isn’t the proposal, but the point is - that’s why you don’t get government to decide. Because *they can’t predict the future either*. And in case you think this is unrealistic, I’ll just point out the billions wasted on Smart Meters.
Evidence says that USB-C is a bad solution, in the opinion of responsible engineers and product designers.
In the Red corner, a product design engineer with maybe 20 years experience and some understanding of corner cases and the dozens of different ways it could be used.
In the Blue corner, somebody who has never designed diddly-squat, being egged on by political shills, and who knows only one use-case, their own.
Who is right….place your bets now!
You are so blinded for the government propaganda, that you can't see that this kind of intromission doesn't really offers any benefit, but hold the innovation and research for new technologies that could improve our connection. The way you are thinking, if the gonernment have had this great ideia at the time we had coaxial cables, we would never have optical fiber, or even farder, why build motors if whe have horses?
What a ridiculous thing to say! That's the whole point of governments. They "govern" - and in *this* context, not in the sense of run or control, but in the sense of "regulate". Make sure that there are the right rules, and that they are followed. Because industry alone will not come up with right right answer, because industry is mostly profit-driven. Self-regulation has resulted in 30 years on non-standardisation. Every single phone, even within the same manufacturer, had a different charging port/connector. Every other device had its own little socket. There were about 30 different laptop jacks, mostly incompatible with each other. We are only just starting to get standardisation now, and it'll take government regulation to make sure it stays that way.
Yes, I can charge my laptop, tablet, fly swatter*, speaker, phone and screwdriver all with the same charger.
*except it's just basic USB power over a USB-C connection, which means that true USB-C PD chargers cannot charge it. Confusing, isn't it?
... or you have a 25W wall wart and need a 40W, or 60W or 80W or perhaps you have a 20W device and don't want to lug around a 240W brick ...
Welcome to the world where device specific wall warts are replaced with new "greener" wall warts that most consumers will have to guess whether they will or will not work with a device and will only find out when they get home ...
And before I get the downvotes about "it'll just being a slower when charging a device", if the device is discharged, has a bad battery or no battery at all and you need to power it, a too-low power USB-C will not work.
There is a 240W PD standard.. OK, so you'll need a rather special 240W PD charger (and cable) for your laptop, but soon it won't be so special as other laptops and appliances adopt the standard. That is why we HAVE standards.
It also means you can get a nice (though expensive) compact GaN charger that does 240W, much smaller than the (cheap and nasty) power bricks included with equipment, and you get to save money by not having to buy one if you already have one ...
Also, I call FUD on your statement that a "true" USB-PD cannot charge a dumb 5V device - I have plenty of dumb 5V devices with USB-C ports where the data wires are either not connected or are shorted together, and they all charge on my variety of 45W-100W PD chargers..
And, regards to USB-C laptops, my Dell XPS15 laptop has a Power Management system in its firmware, which is able to throttle the total system power to whatever the connected USB-C charger is able to deliver. So yes, a 60W USB-C charger does work even when it is discharged, even though the design power (and included "out-of-spec" USB-C adapter) is 180W. You even get a handy message from KDE to tell you that the battery is NOT charging and the power has been throttled, due to the low-power charger
"Also, I call FUD on your statement that a "true" USB-PD cannot charge a dumb 5V device - I have plenty of dumb 5V devices with USB-C ports where the data wires are either not connected or are shorted together, and they all charge on my variety of 45W-100W PD chargers.."
I've had mixed results. The cheapest stuff I own that's made with the most Chinesium™ does NOT charge with a PD USB-C charger. The high quality stuff does charge. If they don't have a proper PD charging circuit in the device, the charger won't know how to charge it.
With those cheap and crappy devices, I use a USB-A to USB-C cable and charge it like that.
More to the point, USB-A is not a good charging standard. It's got all these proprietary things added to it by the likes of Samsung.
"USB-A is not a good charging standard. It's got all these proprietary things added to it"
There are industry conventions for indicating 0.5A/2A/3A that were created in the absence of better standards back in the dim dark past (and then there's QC2/3/4 handshaking) but the point is that USBA can keep dealing with the dumb low power stuff and USB-C will take over everything else
USB A has been around a LONG time now. USB C is a relative newcomer but because of the power issues and the USB A kludging that happened as smartphones started sucking more than 500mA the USB standards committee codified stuff to ensure there wouldn't be issues going forward
(*) Who remembers when the Samsung Galaxy 2 couldn't actually charge over USB faster than the phone was pulling power? That's WHY removeable batteries were important - and it wasn't just Samsung. My 2002 Motorola A1000 had exactly the same issue
There's also an adapter that you can get for USB-C to "thinkpad square plug" to free up a port when charging.. However it doesn't work if your Thinkpad needs even a smidge more than 100W at full load.
I tried a recent (AMD, maybe the Intel-based ones are better) thinkpad, but sadly had to send it back, in part because I was so infuriated that it refused to charge at all via USB-C unless it was turned off. The "square plug" was rated 120W, but unlike my Dell (which I wanted to replace) it would NOT throttle the system and instead simply refused to do anything with a low-rated power supply, not even "run but not charge". Even if I used the adaptor to connect via the square plug socket.
That is EXACTLY what this legislation should prevent. The likes of Lenovo should ditch their stupid square barrel plugs for good.
> The likes of Lenovo should ditch their stupid square barrel plugs for good.
It’s a laptop, I don’t see it as being Lenovo’s problem that your thirdparty USB power adaptor is inadequate; personally, whilst my current Thinkpad uses USB-C, I would much rather it had a traditional and more robust power port.
It's not FUD, unfortunately. A lot of USB PD chargers need to chat to the PD chip in the cable or they simply won't turn on the juice. I suspect it's to avoid fires
The quick and simple solution is a 50p USB-A to USB-C cable. There are plenty of USB-A sockets, will be for the forseeable future and none of these dumb devices draw more than 0.5A anyway
“Self-regulation has resulted in 30 years on non-standardisation”. I mean, ok….but why is having non-standard stuff supposed to be such disaster? And why choose to standardise this, and not other things? Clearly your entire life is just laptop, tablet, phone; but I can think of few issues in my life that are so unimportant as “how many different chargers do I need”. Why not pick *any* of the following, which clearly present much bigger day-to-day inconveniences:
Standardise door-widths; then I would know that the furniture I buy would definitely go into the house. Standardise room measurements; then we wouldn’t spend literally weeks of our lives every time we buy a house, deciding whether a bedroom is “big enough”. Standardise recycling bins, colours and separation requirements, across the country, that way whenever I visit somebody anywhere we don’t have to spend ten minutes discussing which bin to put stuff in every damn time.Standardise car widths, would help for car parks. While we’re at it, why not just standardise the car completely! Mostly it’s just signalling of “how rich I am”, so just like Intel i3, i5, i7, there could be a government-approved feature-list and trim-level, so VW could say they were selling a “level 5 car”, and it would mean the same as BMW “level 5 car”. Saves lots of test-driving. Standardise the internal layout of supermarkets. Standardise the shopping high street…. we’re almost there, it’s really mostly identical retailers anyway, but it’s such a bore going to a new town, and not knowing where the Maman Bebe is. If they just put it next to Waitrose on every high street, you’d never have to look it up on the map.
Ok, maybe they are all First World Problems, but every one of them is a bigger deal in practice than charging cables. Think how much more convenient and efficient the world would be!
Whoosh.
I carefully picked a bunch of things which really are inconveniences, and might “benefit” from being standardised, in a sort-of ranked order of reasonableness. They aren’t standardised, you are simply wrong about that. I’ve started at the reasonable end. Door widths are “usually” 760mm, but “sometimes” less than 730mm (which is the next relevant width), while wheelchair users need 800mm. Door widths are actually a big f*ing deal for quality of life for millions of people. 4cm is the difference between having a life and being “put into a home”.
Then I’ve stepped sequentially into a final picture that I would hope everyone recognises as a dystopian nightmare. I would absolutely kill myself rather than live in a cookie-cutter country like that, and I do mean that seriously. But every one of those suggestions is “sort of reasonable” from the point of view of its own logic. And not only is the cut-off point going to be different for everyone on this forum….but since most of this forum is shockingly authoritarian, they’ll sit really quite far towards the endpoint. Some people here will even think that a central agreed template for a “standard high-street” sounds reasonable, given its obvious advantages.
Yes, standard door sizes are a pain.
Discovered the hard way: Had to alter a lot of our house for a disabled relative to be able to use (wheelchair user) - a lot of doors were too narrow and doorways needed enlarging and new doors adding (we now have a bathroom downstairs (inc wet room style shower i.e. no barriers to wheelchair) that's fully disabled friendly)
It's even more of a pain when you spec up sizes which get ignored by contractors because they have "standard sizes" in stock instead of the wder ones specified
I had to be phsyically restrained from attacking one idiot after they produced a house for a wheelchair user which was unusable by the intended occupant. The worst part was that it was signed off as complete instead of forcing the contractor to eat the costs of making good on it (which cost half as much again as the final contract price)
Quality British workmanship...
Standardisation is not authoritarian you nitwit.. Nobody is coming to bash down your door and confiscate nonstandard cables/connectors. Nobody is going to stop you selling SCART cables to people who still want them either. Just because we have a standard width for a car doesn't mean you can't drive a classic cadillac around. Just don't expect to find many parking bays big enough.
Similarly nobody is telling anyone that they can't have a wider than standard door frame (or a narrower one) just that they can be sure that a standard sofa will squeeze through a standard door.
But then you are the sort of troll who spouts nonsense FUD like "the EU wants to regulate the size of your banana" etc.
Errr….there isn’t a standard width for a car. You still think we do? A VW Polo today is 1751mm. A Mk2 was 1580mm. A Mk5 was 1682mm. There is no standard width. Maybe we should do, there are a number of advantages, I’m not being sarcastic about that. From design of car parks, through to lane-widths, disabled access, preventing size inflation to reduce fuel consumption. There is a *maximum* legal width for the EU which is an astonishing 2.55meters.
For doors you said “nobody is telling anyone that they can't have a wider than standard door frame (or a narrower one) just that they can be sure that a standard sofa will squeeze through a standard door”. Such confidence! Because you know about sofas! And yet, so very, very wrong. Building Regulations 2022, Part M “an entrance door should have a minimum clear opening width of 775mm. Ideally, the door opening should be 900mm wide for a wheelchair user”
Like I said…..whoooosh straight over your head. There are very many things that have good reason to be standardised, much more important and useful than charging cables; which in fact are not. The problem is, when you standardise everything with a sound internal reason to be standardised…..what you’re left with is a dead place, that nobody but a zombie would actually want to live.
> "there isn’t a standard width for a car"
There are several standard widths for tax classification purposes - particularly if you live in Japan
> "an entrance door should have a minimum clear opening width of 775mm. Ideally, the door opening should be 900mm wide for a wheelchair user"
"Should is not mandatory, therefore it's optional. We are perfectly legally correct in selling you a house with 750mm doors for a wheelchair user when you specified wheelchair requirements upfront and our lawyers will beat this in court"
I'm not making it up. This kind of shit happens regularly
In the UK, building regs now specify that the ground floor of all new homes must be wheelchair friendly (may differ from region to region and may be a local authority condition for new developments). So that means 800mm wide doors into all downstairs rooms and a downstairs cloakroom.
I don't think this applies to maisonettes or homes where the living spaces are upstairs and the bedrooms downstairs.
I'm just finishing up a garage conversion of the old utility room and garage into a bedroom and shower room for my mum to come live with us as she's getting older and can't drive, and struggles with stairs, even a shower with a step into it can be a problem.
In spite of her not needing a wheelchair, the bedroom door and bathroom opening (no door) had to be wheelchair friendly, even though the kitchen door to the rear lobby, and the back door to the garden are standard 760mm ones. So, we have 760mm doors there and an 838mm door into the bedroom.... Go figure.
> Door widths are actually a big f*ing deal for quality of life for millions of people. 4cm is the difference between having a life and being “put into a home”.
Door heights matter too. I specfied 8 foot (2.4M) doors for our data centre to handle rolling in tall racks. Come to actually take possession of the building and find the contractors had ignored the spec and put in 2 metre doors all the way to the loading bay - and on the front door had ignotred the 1.2m opening requirement, putting in 800mm plus a vision panel. Cbntractor refused point blank to rebuild to spec as they'd have to tear out a half dozen internal fire partitions
Mind you this is the same contractor who ran every single bit of building plumbing in the ceiling of the data store despite the plans clearly stating "NO WATER PENETRATIONS PERMITTED", claimed it wasn't there when they did the work and wanted to charge £40k to fix their fuckup, so management buckled. I was seriously tempted to put the tape safes and robot in the Directors office and wait for the screaming to commence
Later on I discovered that all the cable penetrations were bare and open instead of being firestopped.
"why is having non-standard stuff supposed to be such disaster?"
Memories of a drawer full of wall warts each with its own unique plug and voltage....
I threw out a carton of old schol 12V 1A warts last year. Those things had a conversion efficiency of around 35% and drew 6-8W even with nothing plugged into them.
The EU wanted those gone for the same reason it wanted incandescent lamps gone. The wattage may be small but it adds up over a population
If this is "big government", it's big government focusing on companies, to the benefit of consumers.
We like that.
The USA uses the excuse of cutting big government to remove regulations on companies that protect the public... Anything that dents a companies profits must go! Sod the public!
We don't like that.
Now of course, you "reform" types love big government **when it goes your way**
I bet you'd love it for the UK to mandate a Union Jack shaped charging port, whose power output is measured in pints.
As an American, I'd like to correct your belief on how things work here
"The USA uses the excuse of cutting big government to remove regulations on companies that protect the public"
They use the excuse of "big government" to remove regulations from companies to allow them the unregulated ability to fleece the public for maximum profits.
However, simultaneously, their 'small government' policies are more than happy to regulate your *private* life - you know, what books should be available to you, what bathrooms you can go to, what health care should be available to you even if you are a legally-consenting adult, and what beliefs you should follow if you care to have beliefs at all.
You know. Forwarding good old-fashioned American "freedoms!" and stuff o_O
Us *Labour voters*, who formed the majority of Leave, don’t have any interest whatsoever in mandating charger specs.
We want the resources freed up from regulation and “big tech infrastructure” projects, to be spent on public services. We want more doctors and nurses, better-paid carers, more funding for schools. You want smart meters and solar panel subsidies, Galileo satellites, HS2 and Erasmus skiing holidays for the sons of those in-the-know
Notice how everything on *my* list is about people, and for everybody; whereas everything on *your* list is about things, and only relevant to middle-classes with lots of “stuff”. Take a long look in the mirror.
What a load of self-serving inverted snobbery bollocks.
You know absolutely nothing about me. and it shows.
You "leavers" - left or right - you always justify your vote based on what you want, not what you'll get. The "purple unicorn" fallacy "Oh, it's not the Brexit I voted for",
You wanted "more doctors and nurses, better paid carers, more funding for schools". So do I. That's why I voted not to cripple our economy in every stupid way possible.
If you voted Brexit for those reasons, you are as stupid as anyone who says "I voted brexit so that we'd all be millionaires, and if it hasn't happened, it's because it's not the brexit I voted for"
Caring and NHS jobs in particular are far worse due to Brexit. That's down to YOU. Own it, and cut the "Four Yorkshiremen" BS.
P.S. "Us *Labour voters*, who formed the majority of Leave, " - WTF? Not even close. If that's how good you are at numbers, no wonder you thought Brexit was a good idea. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48039984
Born, educated, live and work in England. I speak Russian, certainly, as does anyone who has done business behind the Iron Curtain. But then I also speak Hindi, Farsi, Mandarin, Japanese, Sylheti, French and German. If I had to describe my background it would be Ashkenazi Jew- Congolese-Persian….
Since one of my beefs with the EU is that the old East is so pro-Putin, then I’m not seeing it…..
I will start at the end. I can’t speak for any poll, particularly if it is only 2000 people. But I can tell you, that I am very active in our local Labour Party, and I have gone to Conference *every* year without fail since I became an adult, and I have spoken to hundreds of committed, engaged core Labour from across the country, plus the thousands on the doorstep at all three general elections since Brexit.
As you would expect, on the doorstep, Leave/Remain is equivocal among Labour supporters. I can’t tell you if it’s 45/55 or 55/45. But among *people at Conference*, it’s not even close: 2:1 or even 3:1 in favour of Leave. And it gets stronger Leave, the harder Left you go, and the more ethnic minority (which I am). Starmer the Remainer is very much in a minority in any Labour room, and it is no coincidence that he is on the Right of the party, and White.
Yes, I know that’s not what you have been told. You’ve been told that Leave consists of racists. But the truth is, it is Remain which almost exclusively white. Sorry, but there is no way of avoiding this topic. They try to hide it by saying they speak for “immigrants”, but any photo will show the truth. A majority of ethnic minority immigrants to the U.K. see simply this: the EU is a club whose main purpose is to be a Whites-Only fast track. And it’s true. Which leads to your second point: “Caring and NHS jobs in particular are far worse due to Brexit.”
Could you explain how, exactly? Given that the top sources of overseas doctors, nurses and care-assistants are specifically from India, Philippines, Nigeria and Pakistan. I support this, we need good people. Could you tell me when those countries joined the EU? Could you explain to me, and to the Filipino people, exactly why we should have to check whether somebody from East Germany wants to come here (which they largely don’t) delaying the entry of the Filipino nurse by six months? It was shameful. Go on then, how did EU membership help us recruit doctors from India? Because I’m not seeing it. What is it, exactly, about the “European” that “deserves” a job over the Nigerian? Because the answer is staring you in the face. You can lie and pretend to yourself all you like. But the rest of the world sees you. Your “European-ness” is just about the colour of their skin. It isn’t the language (because educated people from all those countries speak English). And it isn’t the qualifications, because those countries also often use British qualification system. And it isn’t the historical links. So it’s skin colour. That is what the EU is - a White People Fast Track.
Yes, what a shame my govenrment decided to standardise on a 3-pin electrical wall outlet all those years ago. That was a waste of money and definitely did not help adoption of electricity or public safety. We should have allowed every electrician to use whatever excuse for a plug they thought the customer would put up with and invested in more firemen.
The house I lived in was rewired to the new standards in, I think, 1963. And our house ended up as being just about the only place I saw 13A sockets for years.
Meant we couldn't readily lend or borrow electrical devices. But also meant we used same plugs for everything, no worry about 2, 5 and 15 amp plugs and a complex array of adaptors. Nor concern that so many devices were not earthed.
Our next-door neighbour used a pendant light-socket to 2-pin plug adaptor to do her ironing. While we had more sockets than we could use.
Even the significant issue of being able to touch the pins of 13A plugs was eventually addressed. And the range of fuses that we should use reduced.
13A sockets - for we poor colonials in the antipodes these are the beasties (I think): BS1363 socket of which we have been deprived that are, in opinion of the writer, rather ugly plugs and sockets.
Amusingly the Honeywell site retricts access to these beauties when the browser is in in AU. ;)
I don't think either AU or NZ standardised the use of micro usb charging for phones - once CN mandated that, the only android phones you could buy here were so equipped and with support for 2G retired and now 3G you don't have much choice but to purchase a new phone every few years. A lot of models introduced in the last couple of years already have usb C charging so I imagine it will only be the Apple fanbase that will actually notice.
"13A sockets - for we poor colonials in the antipodes these are the beasties (I think): BS1363 socket of which we have been deprived that are, in opinion of the writer, rather ugly plugs and sockets."
So what? Electrical plugs and sockets are not meant to be pretty. They're meant to provide a safe and convenient way to connect electrical devices to a power source. In that respect, BS1363 kicks the arse of every other domestic plug/socket standard.
Even the significant issue of being able to touch the pins of 13A plugs was eventually addressed.By the design of BS1363 as originally envisaged, touching the pins was not an issue, because the faceplate switch ensured the pins would not be live while the plug was halfway in.
It only became an issue once the simultaneous proliferation of multi-way extension leads having unswitched sockets and appliances that required continuous power led to a perfect storm of people trying to insert and remove plugs with the socket still live, like some sort of uncivilised barbarians.
And yet, they precisely did not “standardise on a 3-pin electrical wall outlet”. The UK legislation clearly does not say what you think it does. Otherwise, it would be today illegal to fit a wall outlet with USB sockets on, and yet here one is:
https://www.elesi.com/soho-lighting-white-metal-flat-plate-2-gang-usb-c-socket-13a-socket-2-usb-ports-a-c-3-1a-wht-ins-screwlesss
Also famously, despite the fact that the EU loves standardisation, one thing they haven’t made any progress at all on is the variety of electrical sockets on different countries, after half a century. Even North vs South Italy. Or the 240 vs 220V, or 60Hz vs 50Hz
Almost as if the EU regulators didn’t really care very much about electrics, but wanted to regulate phone chargers specifically for some political reason. Like, to take a *totally* random example, suppose the old-style wall warts were made outside the EU. But USB-C chipsets had some EU company manufacturing, and lobbied for it protectionist-wise.
Facepalm. There’s none so blind as a man whose job depends on them not seeing something.
Mandating that tax returns have to be submitted on floppy disc? Japan probably has a few left over.
The problem with technical regulations is that technology moves a lot faster than bureaucrats. Also technology is generally considered to improve over time, whereas bureaucrats...
With their 3 billion lumen strobe lights on the front of the bike. If a car had them fitted there would be fines and other unpleasantness, but cyclists appear to be able to fit whatever flashing lights they like. I think standard bike lights should be a thing. None of them should flash.
"cyclists appear to be able to fit whatever flashing lights they like. I think standard bike lights should be a thing. None of them should flash."
technically in the UK road users are not allowed to dazzle oncoming traffic so badly set or super bright cycle lights are illegal to use. Flashing lights *are* legal but only if used alongside a legal, permanently lit lamp (some lamps use a single lit LED specifically to circumvent that rule).
This isn't a case of being legal or illegal, it's a simple case of no enforcement. Much like the muppets who demand a 20mph limit to control traffic because "nobody sticks to the 30mph limit" but can't see that the 30mph isn't being policed ...
"cyclists appear to be able to fit whatever flashing lights they like"
They're not - I've seen a bunch of cyclists pulled over for this and having blinding lights in a local village. The cops impounded the offending lights and told them they could be collected from the local station when they showed up with documentation showing they were approved for road use.
Useful article: https://www.bikeradar.com/features/bike-light-laws-in-the-uk-what-you-need-to-know
Basically, you can fit a high power front light, but it must not dazzle oncoming traffic. This is an issue for me as I live in the countryside, so on the unlit lanes I need a powerful light - good enough for 20~30mph, but on the city streets I only need something to effectively say “cyclist here”.
The Colonies routinely allow one to make a right turn on a red (after a "full" (which in practice tends to be a "California")) stop. And you can even make a left turn on red if the street you're turning onto is one way with traffic flow going from right to left.
So there. Muppet.
288pin DDR5 module compliant
Well, I wouldn't say no to the government ensuring that no-one introduces a 287 or 289 pin DDR module solely to implement a barrier to use of 288 pin modules.
And what has been quite amusing is when one company has adopted their own standard for something - then a merger or acquisition has meant they actually now want to be fully compatible but have screwed up that possibility.
Did you know that it was only "Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1994" that required, by law, that appliances came with built in plugs? Before that, in the UK, if you bought a toaster, you'd probably have to wire your own plug. Sometimes (often) democratically elected politicians making decisions for the good of all, rather than leaving it to "free" the market, can be a good thing.
Is it though? Is it *actually* a good thing that you view “wiring a plug” as a scary risk?
My father showed me when I was maybe seven or eight. By the age of ten or so, “doing the electrics” (sockets, light fittings) was my contribution, while he did the heavy stuff like sledge-hammering the wall. Looking back, he probably peeked over my shoulder, but I never caught him at it. Plumbing soldering was the big thing, whoosh mahoosive flame, that I loved. I think I was fourteen though when he let me play with that; it’s a Jewish thing.
"Is it though? Is it *actually* a good thing that you view “wiring a plug” as a scary risk?"
Yes, it is. The point you are missing is that while the good folk of *this* parish can almost certainly wire a plug safely, many people cannot and when you encounter a plug outside your own home you probably have no idea of and no control over who wired it.
> Is it *actually* a good thing that you view “wiring a plug” as a scary risk?
The number of electrical fatalities and fires in the UK dropped sharply after that particular law change
My father is red/green colourblind. Even as a child I had to check his handiwork to ensure he hadn't swapped live and ground (quietly, as there would be hell to pay if he thought we didn't trust him). When I was about 14 I read of a prosecution where a guy killed his daughter through this exact issue when wiring up an illegal 3 pin wall outlet adaptor for a caravan - she touched the doorhandle after walking through wet grass and got the full brunt of the shock
The only way he can use traffic lights is "top light is stop, bottom is go" and he finally admitted a few years back that he can't actually SEE red light - meaning just assumes trafffic lights are red if he can't see the other two colours - and he can't see car brake lights, which explains a number of near misses I observed during my childhood
(It was also the days when police/fire/ambulance used flashing red beacons instead of colour mixes, with predictable issues resulting)
> When I was about 14 I read of a prosecution where a guy killed his daughter
Yes, electrical safety was taken seriously, The album cover of PXR5 (https://strawberrybricks.com/guide/releases/pxr5 )
Is one of the few, which (after the first pressing) had the rear artwork covered by a sticker, because it showed an incorrectly wired plug…
I just redecorated one room and removed a 2 pin 5A socket from the skirting board. Must have been there best part of 100 years! And probably disconnected for over half of that.
Still find the odd bit of lead sheathed cable here and there under the floor. Get decent money for it at the weigh-in.
I'm sure Jacob Rees Mogg et al will be lobbying for the BS546 round-pin plug to be made the standard.
That's a bit too modern for JRM. I'm sure he'd prefer a system whereby you handed the device to a flunky who then used an amber rod and a piece of silk or a preprepared Leyden jar to supply the necessary electromotive force.
Actually those 15A plugs and sockets, due to their round pins and sockets, were really capable of handling 15 Amps; whereas the rectangular-pinned 13A system that replaced it is not good at handling 13 Amps.
Even the USB-C standard has it's problems with the poor quality cables on the market.
There used to be a problem with 13A plug pins that were badly cut, so they had burrs and ridges that prevented the socket springs making proper contact. I've not seen that problem for decades. On the other hand, there are a number of safety features that make them far better than the alternatives.
Agreed. Looks like it says "5V 2A".
I also hope it has its own isolation barrier.. The 50Hz isolation transformer used in shaver sockets is horribly inefficient and is usually only energised when something is plugged in. It then gets warm whether or not any power is being transferred. So I *hope* the USB is powered the same way as any other USB wall socket - straight off the mains, and not off the isolation transformer which would then need to be energised all of the time..
Manufacturers are going to do whatever the EU requires as it's the larger market. Anything manufactured to a standard below what the EU and India require is probably going to be dangerous junk anyway.
Unless we're going to have stricter standards - which would limit the products we get - there's no point to even looking at this. If we do want to go the stricter standard route we could include require later revisions of USB Power Delivery (I think the EU only require revision 1). But as we're dealing with pre-existing standards there's not much flexibility beyond that.
So what is there to discuss here? Thanks to the lies and delusions of Leave we're now rule takers, not rule makers. Just copy and paste the damned regulations, and then spend our tax money on something we can actually affect (food standards) or that we want (healthcare and social services).
But don't waste our tax money by pretending we're somehow able to make rules anyone will care about anymore.
That, I'm afraid is a load of crap.
The UK is the sixth largest economy in the world, we have many standards that are unique and manufacturers are entirely happy to adapt to, and I can readily think of examples where UK standards are higher than those in the EU. Our product safety standards are amongst the highest in the world. I work in the world of regulations and standards, there's plenty of opportunity to share standards and we do that when it is feasible - it doesn't mean that we take every standard that somebody else issues.
As for "don't waste our tax money by pretending we're somehow able to make rules anyone will care about anymore", maybe learn how democracy works? A change is proposed that's pretty similar to EU arrangements, and you're not happy? Or is that you want laws passing without consultation with business and citizens?
But by all means, if you want to be a bitter defeatist, then feel free.
Fine words, but you won't put your name to them?
We are a large economy, but not large enough to sway things on our own. Manufacturers have made that pretty clear. I have no problems with higher standards - I offered an example (later revisions of USB PD), and said that it was about all we could do. I also mentioned that if we do have higher standards then it most likely ends up restricting the choice of goods we'll have. Something you haven't addressed, so that conversation is evidently not one you're seriously addressing.
As to our current high standards - many of those were due to EU membership. The UK often used the EU as an opportunity to put in high standards on the assumption that our businesses would be better able to adapt than other EU members' businesses. Whether that is true or not is debatable, but it's undeniable that the UK was often pushing for higher not lower standards within the EU.
The question now is whether or not we keep those high standards.
It's also undeniable that many of the leaders and funders of the Leave movement are of the "low regulation and and low taxes" view, and have made repeated assaults on our various regulations, to the point where they were pushing for Parliamentary bills to scrap every bit of EU retained regulation regardless of its merit or necessity. Remember that the very first bill that the Conservative government tried to pass after we left the EU was to lower the standards for waterways below that allowed in the EU. Shareholders have to keep getting their value, after all, and if our rivers and beaches are covered in crap it's a small price to pay for the comfort of those portfolio holders...
We are a democracy, and am quite aware of how that works - you have mistaken pragmatism for defeatism. I'm not saying we should accept the EU laws because they're better, I'm saying we should because anything else is likely a waste of our time and money. Something which again you've not really addressed here.
There's a saying, something along the lines that "The USA is the world leader in military, China is the world leader economically, and the EU is the world leader at standards settings."
No-where is the UK mentioned there.
California has an economy greater than the UK's, yet they don't affect global policy either.
You'll see that many American companies design all their products to EU rules. There's a lot of documentation out there about that.
You may not like that.. sitting there with Churchill pictures on the wall and "land of hope and glory" playing on the old gramophone, but it doesn't make it any less true.
Oh, and this: https://www.teneo.com/insights/articles/europe-in-the-world-from-soft-power-to-rule-maker/
There's even a name for the phenomenon of the EU setting global standards, it's called the Brussels Effect. I expect we can soon chalk up the effort to standardise USB-C for all small devices as another proof point of the Brussels Effect in action.
It’s a good point but you still effectively have to comply with Proposition 65 if you want to sell into the US. But that is more like having a special law in France that means you can’t sell to the EU - the UK being on its own carries mich less weight
California kinda does affect global policy though - for example in the car market when California introduced it's smog laws the US auto makers (and anyone wanting to import cars to the US) basically decided to use the California smog standards for the whole of the USA, because they were the most restrictive laws.
And because the USA market had these restrictions, a lot of them spread to the vehicles made in other countries too to keep standardisation as much as possible to save cost worldwide.
Of course, this wouldn't necessarily happen for other things, just one example where it did make a difference.
That's less than one 1/5th of EU.
Subtract all tax avoidance or evasion (and related activities) via IoM, Channel Is, Gibraltar, Caribbean & Atlantic.
Then the UK is much less. Even by GDP (PPP) they are about 10th and that is inflated. Some of it is historical due to Colonial Middle-men. See history of Ireland from 1590 till Ireland broke with Sterling in CM/EU. Or why India has a spinning wheel on flag. During Empire India had to export cotton to Britain and import cloth. IPA invented because India forced to import English beer. Forced to import railway engines.
There are still UK restrictive and historical controls and trade practices affecting other countries (ISBNs and Media in Ireland. Africa, Cyprus, British Overseas Territories).
The UK can't dictate standards on phones or gadgets now.
UK and Ireland ISBNs are sold by a US multinational (recently divested from another US multinational). It's colonies all the way down.
Ah, of course you want to use Purchasing Price Parity figures. Because by those standards Moldova is one of the richest countries in the world - I could buy a nice 3 bed apartment in a decent area for 30k.
Don’t be a prat. Use the actual numbers as they are, rather than adjusting by fantasy fudge factor. The majority of the EU population is poor. True, grinding, inescapable rural poverty, the sort with “photogenic old men playing cards in the cafe” who are actually 40.
Parts of Western Europe are well-off. But the well-off bits aren’t 400 million people, it’s 150 million.
You can still buy devices with USB micro & mini as well as barrel charging ports... Since the EU adopted the law, the UK is being used as a dumping ground for all the cheap shite & knock off crap. I bought something 6 months ago that was still using micro b for charging. I was also given some new lights for my bike that are micro b and my girlfriend bought something that had a barrel plug... All this year.
All down to the 'benefits' of brexit...
EU law doesn't go into effect until the end of this year* and applies to "mobile phones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones and headsets, handheld videogame consoles and portable speakers, e-readers, keyboards, mice, portable navigation systems, earbuds and laptops that are rechargeable via a wired cable, operating with a power delivery of up to 100 Watts, will have to be equipped with a USB Type-C port"
Quote above from this document
So your rechargeable bike lights will still likely come with USB-Micro-B unless the manufacturer chooses to change.
*At EU level. Member states then have 12 months to legislate to this effect (they can adopt a higher standard if they wish at this point, no one will most likely) and then a further 12 months to allow for manufacturers to apply the rules, which will only apply to new products brought to market (so existing products do not have to be altered to comply). So by the end of 2026 all new devices covered above should start coming with USB-C ports.
True, but there are already a large number of different mains plugs in use around the world, and it's relatively easy to change the plug on one end of a mains lead. Much more difficult to re-design an iPhone or tablet to have two different charger connector options.
The truth is that the UK has negligible say in the matter. We used to have a strong voice, as a leading EU Member State in a massive consumer market, but alas no longer.
See also: UKCA marks on goods. That didn't last very long, for the same reasons!
It depends on the product type. Sometimes to carry the CE mark you "just" need to certify that your products follow regulation XYZ for that product range and to provide a named point of contact for any enquiries around recalls, blueprints, and legal cases up to X years after the product was last sold.
For some product categories (building materials for instance, some tools) where the risk is deemed greater, there's required CE testing process that needs to be followed and the outcomes certified. And that was indeed a problem immediately after Brexit as UK based testing labs were not certified any more to conduct CE conformity tests. Eventually some UK based CE testing labs opened branch offices in the EU (mainly in the Netherlands and Germany) to keep providing CE Conformity testing to their UK customer base.
UKCA isn't "dropped", it's just functionally useless as manufacturers will just self-certify to CE conformity instead since it then allows them to sell the same product to the entire EU.
If there ever is invented a purely British product which will never be sold in the EU (maybe some sort of passive-aggressive politeness-powered kettle) then manufacturers may choose to solely put the UKCA mark on it, but most likely they wouldn't if they want it to be sold into the EU also, since we recognise CE but they don't recognise UKCA.
CE is not just self-certification (I suppose I'm getting downvotes because people think it is). There are Notified Bodies who can only test certain products and they are only in the EU.
Was this she same day as Kier Starmer announced (another government) war on red tape.
This is an utterly pointless fucking waste of everyone’s time, money and effort.
If’s a 1 minute political decision to follow the EU and everyone else and also use USB C.
Madness.
Great irony though.
Yes, can’t we just write a law that says the UK is only allowed to buy Volkswagen cars? Would save consumers so much time test-driving, and save the environment for those test drives.
[asking for a friend, who might or might not be in financial trouble to the tune of €50bn and could really do with a helping hand right now]
You realise that what you’re saying is a total non sequitur?
If you are correct, then manufacturers will only make 100% USBC, as per EU. Then why do we need to “copy paste the legislation”?
Alternatively, what I think, in *thousands* of niches that you haven’t thought of, because it’s not the Android phone/tablet use-case of an entitled euro man-child, USB-C won’t fit the bill very well, and just be a pointless extra expense.
But if I’m wrong, then where’s the downside? We already have the safety legislation in place for the wall warts that are sold currently, nobody is suggesting taking that away. What’s the purpose of actively pulling-in the EU legislation, if nobody wants wants to sell it.
This is heads-I-win, tails-you-don’t-win.
Remainers don’t know what they want.
[i]But don't waste our tax money by pretending we're somehow able to make rules anyone will care about anymore.[/i]
I don't think that's what they're wasting money on pretending. Clearly no UK specific rules will come out of this. Everyone knows there's no reasonable discussion to be had and the answer will be USB-C. What the government would like to pretend is that they'll be doing it because industry and the public demanded it, not just because the EU already did it. That's the point of the consultation.
Perhaps "demanded" was the wrong word. "Agreed that it's the obvious thing to do" would be better. The point is that the consultation is not to help make a decision, since the decision is obvious. It's to get collective buy-in in advance of the decision, so when the Daily Mail starts foaming at the mouth about following Brussels' rules, the government has an answer.
@I am the liquor
"The point is that the consultation is not to help make a decision, since the decision is obvious."
The obvious decision is to do nothing and not have any such rules or consulting for such rules. It makes more sense to not do so and then accept the victory of it not being an issue at all. It just seems an excuse to do something pointless to justify someones wage.
If we were still in the EU, then we would have been part of the original consultation, and could have had a say when it mattered..
Except we kept electing wankers like Nigel Farage as MEP, which is a bit like even worse than appointing Mr Blobby as ambassador and then wondering why nobody takes you seriously. (Worse, because rather than just being a clown, Farage was actively trying to sabotage the whole European Parliament thing)
@Jamie Jones
"Not leaving the EU would have saved the money on consultations."
Why?
"Now, it's necessary"
Why?
"Look at it this way, it gives you an opportunity to suggest a new, British themed charging port, complete with red white and blue cable connectors."
Why?
For what purpose or need is this? There isnt.
Going full DUP now Codejunky?...
At least your Brexit has given you some new hobbies.
Shouting at tethered bottle caps...
Shouting at charging ports...
Shouting at CE marks...
If we could turn the angry outputs of the Brexit taliban into some form of economic value we'd be the worlds largest economy...
Have you sent your £25 to Farage yet to find out if you've been kicked in the head by a horse?
@nsld
"Going full DUP now Codejunky?..."
Eh? You need to translate that sorry I have no idea what you mean.
"At least your Brexit has given you some new hobbies.
Shouting at tethered bottle caps...
Shouting at charging ports...
Shouting at CE marks..."
And go on, tell me when I have done any of that.
"If we could turn the angry outputs of the Brexit taliban into some form of economic value we'd be the worlds largest economy..."
So far your comment seems to be complaining random nonsense as if attributed to me. It seems you need a new hobby.
As the socket isn't usually covered, things like phones end up with pocket lint getting into the socket and preventing the plug from going in properly. I've had to dig the fluff (or in one case a grass seed) out of various USB C sockets with a pin several times recently.
I assume you are talking about Lightning (which does have the advantages of being easier to clean, and having fewer pins) however I welcome its demise, and I'm sure Apple do too really. I have seen many a Lightning connector with carbonised or electrocorroded contacts on one of the pins. They are not suitable for the many Amps that modern fast-charging requires.
I'm not sure whether the products are technically violating Apple's patents, but I have a number of magnetic plug adapters that were easily purchased. My laptop, non-Apple, is running off a magnetic USB-C connector and cable. Unfortunately a proprietary plug in the middle, so if the cable breaks I'll have to either buy from the same supplier or switch out the little plug too, but neither part was very expensive. It works the same way that Apple's MagSafe did, although there is one difference I have noticed which is that my cable isn't made of the Apple special insulation, which I trust they also have a patent on. You know, the stuff that somehow manages to peel or melt or somehow come off the cable even though no other cable you own has ever done that. But the magnetic part works the same.
For USB-C fans, there are magnetic USB-C connectors (essentially USB-C to USB-C with a magnetic breaker in the middle) rated for 140W and 240W. Recently added a 90degree elbow one to my laptop and wondering why I didn't do it sooner, has tidied up the cables, less stress on the socket (easier to run the cable sideways across the back of the machine without a bend in it) and easier to remove (again without repeatedly stressing it).
Ditto - I recently did the same thing & bought 3 cables (One for work, one for home, one for travel), then a second pack of (USB C) connectors.
Yea gods has it simplified the charging of my devices (Mini & USB C (No Apple devices)), no fumbling, just faster connections to power, the trade-off of the slightly proud connector I can live with.
Problem with MagSafe-style connectors is that they connect all the pins at once when badly designed (which most of the cheap Chineseium knockoff ones are) which can lead to all sorts of weird USB issues as the proper connectors are designed to connect the grounding pins first to equalise voltages etc before the more sensitive data pins connect.
This can lead to levels of damage to equipment where badly connected pins blow out components, or if the connector pins are damaged it can lead to voltages being applied to the wrong pins, leading to much more damage. And bent or badly shaped pins making poor contact increase electrical resistance, causing heat, and other problems with slow charging etc.
I used to use these connectors on most everything I needed charging until I got frustrated with them constantly disconnecting data paths (especially in the car) and when my phone needed repair, likely because of a short.
Interesting. I see there's a reddit rabbit hole filled with people very concerned about static arcing and things, but I can believe in bad connection issues, particularly with order of pin connection. The one I have is essentially a shortened C plug and socket with a magnetic surround, which in the absence of a design standard for the things (something that should be remedied really), is probably the most likely thing to work properly. I can see there was a rash of other designs on kickstarter a few years ago which were more like actual magsafe, with pins and pads (and not enough of those to be USB 3).
On mine the "socket" side is attached to the C plug, so sits in the device, offering more shrouding for the exposed contacts. Might change my order of connection to laptop first and then charger at the other end, would let the true USB C connectors take care of any order of connection issues while still providing the mechanical protection. (I'm usually unplugging the cable at both ends anyway.)
No, it a wrapper around standard USB-C. It's actually pretty well designed. The plug has an unusually large body but is still standard USB-C. The receptacle being large enough to accept the body of the plug will take commonly sized plugs. (It might be a bit fiddly but in a pinch it's possible). Frankly, I think it should be an official standard because what will not be compatible is different implementations of the same idea.
If only it were possible to buy some sort of cap to fit over the socket and protect it from ingress of dirt. You might like to think that some tat bazaar would have something like that.
[ for those that don't want to think - https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BRQ7SCF6 ]
I#m not so sure it would be fragile on the face of a power tool battery. The problem with USB-C power in my experience seems to be the thin laptops/phones/tablets and people picking them up while still plugged in and so adding vertical stresses to the plug. It doesn't seem to matter where on the device the socket is placed, it's always at the side opposite where people pick it up, ending up with some portion of the devices mass balanced on the plug, damaging the socket. But the primary cause is the devices are so thin, lifting up one handed while plugged in causes stress.
I'm old enough to remember the pre EU days, and boy was that a racket for UK businesses. Having a specific UK weirdness about a product ensured no foreign competition got a look in and the British consumer paid dearly for it. The UK standards were not at all terrible, in fact some were quite good, but they did ensure consumers got their wallets rinsed at every stage, so yes, businesses far and wide would be looking to return back to the days where a specific demographic can get scalped, while other players get squeezed out due to the costs of regional compliance.
It's why France invented Peritel (SCART). Except as the only alternates then were 5 x RCA sockets, or 3 x BNC + DIN, or 8 pin industrial JASC (with not enough signals), the Japanese put SCART on everything with video, except for North American market. On audio only gear they often put DIN and RCA connectors. Germans & Dutch put DIN and USA put RCA connectors.
Earlier all TVs had live chassis so there was only RF in.
Digital TV unfortunately increased the number of standards.a
"the Japanese put SCART on everything with video"
But not in their own domestic market. There was a wierd multi-pin connector somewhat like an inflated HDMI that could carry component analog signals. Can't remember the name of it, but I probably have a cable in the loft, along with far too many SCART cables... Japan did eventually adopt HDMI.
Japanese SCART connectors aren't actually SCART, they're JP-21.
Also France gave way to Big Telly and dumped the SCART requirement in 2015, now most later TVs have no easy way to connect older Composite/S-Video/RGB and everyone is forced to use some horrible dongle which converts to YPbPr or HDMI and the cheap ones are terrible and laggy.
In truth, historically the UK has been quite good at developing and setting standards. If it screwed up it was usually because the UK is good at developing and setting standards but not good at following standards that were not invented here.
Great. Now tell me what to do with the cupboards full of a myriad of different cables and boxes and boxes of old chargers (transformers) going back decades. There must be a lot of El Reg devotees in the same position.
(I also have three shoeboxes of remote controls of long forgotten provenance).
There would be about 40,000 tonnes of copper lying around in UK drawers.
Well it all depends on how sad you want to be.
You could keep them and try to explain to your SO or offspring the value of keeping such things - just in case. And mark my words, the day will [eventually] come when someone will ask you if you have something that will fit some bit of old kit (Centronics cable anyone). You now have the added advantage of expanding your range of USB-C cables.
You could set up an E-Bay account and flog off your cherished antiques.
Or, you could go old school and take a stall at a local boot fair and flog them there.
Alternatively, you could take the hard step of letting go and sending them to the recycling centre (but don't forget [UK only] to take the fuses out of any mains plugs and add to your collection of spares)
Or, hack off the connectors, and wire them to a USB-C PD programmable sink. Send the original power supply to recycling. Most modern PD adapters (since PD 3.0) actually work as programmable power supplies ("PPS mode") now, with fully configurable voltage and current limits, and it only requires a microcontroller, a few buttons and a tiny screen to turn a PD wall-wart into a bench power supply.
see https://hackaday.io/project/194295-pocketpd-usb-c-portable-bench-power-supply
Keep them around for a while, knowing that at some point you'll need one of them. This should last until the third or fourth time when you think you've finally had the occasion where you're going to need them and you test all the cables to find the plug that fits and find that one of the following apply:
1. None of your plugs fit right, even though you've got about forty of them.
2. One of your plugs looks like it fits, and the voltage is wrong, so you cut the wires and used two of them to try to work, and it's not working because it turns out the plug doesn't connect fully, so now you have four pieces of cables instead of two intact ones.
3. One of your plugs fits, but you can't find any information about the voltage and polarity you need because either the manufacturer no longer exists or the manufacturer exists and has twenty different models all of which have different settings and they all look the same.
4. You found out what voltage was needed and you're powering the device, and you're feeling great until it starts to act wrong. This is probably an undercurrent, but who knows for sure.
Then recycle them.
"Great. Now tell me what to do with the cupboards full of a myriad of different cables and boxes and boxes of old chargers (transformers) going back decades."
Most of them probably have propitiatory connectors/voltages and are unmarked and the devices they used to work with are probably long gone :-) Not to mention many will be inefficient and ancient iron core transformers, so old they are probably unsafe due to leaking electrolytic capacitors or even have explodey RIFA caps in them :-)
I was having a clear out and just found a video/audio wireless repeater with SCART connectors on both devices and no PSUs, no indication of voltage or polarity without cracking the plastic cases open and anyway the socket looked a bit like that weird tiny one on the back of an Atari 7800 console, WTF was I thinking when I bought it anyway LOL. It went in box of stuff to go to the WEEE place at the local tip.
Its a bad idea for multiple reasons:
1. there are going to be use cases for which something else is better.
2. Once established its going to be hard to change.
3. These days everything charges from USB adaptors anyway - at worst you need a new cable. Even Apple (the main reason for the EU law) products charge fine with the right cable AFAIK (at least visiting friends have been able to use my standard adaptors with the right cable).
4. Manufacturers have an incentive to use a standard charger as it means they can avoid including a charger with the product.
1. there are going to be use cases for which something else is better.
These are going to be edge cases, but the vast majority already use USB-C. However there is no reason that the USB-C standard cannot evolve. Lets face it the things plugged in has changed vastly since the humble plug was invented
2. Once established its going to be hard to change.
Actually that's a good thing since re-inventing the wheel is a huge waste of resources
3. These days everything charges from USB adaptors anyway - at worst you need a new cable. Even Apple (the main reason for the EU law) products charge fine with the right cable AFAIK (at least visiting friends have been able to use my standard adaptors with the right cable).
This sounds like a good reason for the standard
4. Manufacturers have an incentive to use a standard charger as it means they can avoid including a charger with the product.
Again this is a good thing. I have myriad chargers in my house but only use one or two. The rest are just a waste in resources and landfill. Apple etc should be in the phone business not the charger business
However there is no reason that the USB-C standard cannot evolve.
No doubt USB-D/E/F etc. will appear soon, the risk is that by standardising one type over a wide area you create a disincentive to develop a better one, because changing standards takes years of discussion (and rightly so).
By all means recommend a standard, but I'm not convinced that mandating one, and only one, is necessarily a good idea from the point of view of promoting innovation.
"We are seeking views from manufacturers, importers, distributors, and trade associations".
We, the purchasers, are irrelevant.
I buy bottled water for my coffee machine (else it dies in six months).
The bottles now have EU-mandated attached caps. So much for
taking back control...
Whilst a) and b) are very sensible suggestions, unfortunately c) won't help prolong the coffee machine. Brita and other carbon/charcoal filters don't soften water and it's the limescale that kills things.
We live in a very hard water area (Thames Valley) and recently had a whole house softener installed and the difference is staggering. No limescale on the sinks, round the taps or in the kettle. Shampoo and shower gel lasts at least twice as long since you don't need as much to get the same lather.
I reckon it will pay for itself in a few years due to reduced shampoo & descaler bills alone.
@Dom 3
"I buy bottled water for my coffee machine (else it dies in six months)."
You could try descaling your coffee machine.
I live in a very hard water area (the nearby peak district is scenic, but limestone rich)
I just give the coffee machine periodic empty runs with citric acid dissolved in water (way cheaper to buy that in bulk than to get proprietary descaler products, & you can get it in food standard quality, but do need to ensure machine thoroughly rinsed through a few times after as, food standard or not, you don't want a high acid content drink!)
Descaling periodically can be a PITA, but it avoids the plastics issue of using lots of bottled water...and occasional descaling always useful to keep the machine internals healthy even if your water is not super hard as buildup just takes longer to kill your machine in areas where water hardness is not really obvious.
Well from a service perspective we have found that the USB C standard does not cover the pin out, there are a myriad of different ones. The problem with this is that some are a bitch to repair, hidden pins ect which can mean the cost to repair is higher than say a good old barrel jack. Plus the MTBF of some of these connectors is lower as they can break quite easily in some devices. I just think restricting the OEM to implement the best power solution might increase e waste?
USB-C has the risk of not being able to charge 'dead' consumer devices due to software or embedded software in USB-C controllers.
This is very different from USB-A, as the PD-pins of USB-C are need to be polled *first*.
The USB-IF (USB Implementers Forum) has seperate infrastructure with USB-PD (power delivery) part of USB-C, using a 5-bit semi-fast non-UART protocol that needs special IP integrated in microcontrollers or other chips - bitbang is generally too slow or inconsistent in timing.
There are product and vendor IDs for distribtion of more than 5V, more than .5 or 3A used for USB-A.
Thus, in theory, one could make a policy that refuses USB-PD controller to (re)-charge mobile devices like phones, and thus phase out software that was once installed on the USB-C device. Google has (had) such API for USB-PD controllers in the past, which is odd - since that would/could invalidate existing products that once passed a USB-IF specfied test, jeopardizing backwards compatibility.
USB-PD could allow policymakers to have USB-C become similar to the Kyoto-protocol, that taxed fossil fuels not only when pumping up/selling them, but also when consuming them (CO2).
I find USB-A not bad - at least the specs were clear - 5V, up to 3A only - and not distributed over at least 4 different, individually versioned documents that can be changed by marketeers like it is fashion.
That is not a specification of USB-C per-se. USB-C is just a connector, whereas you are talking about the USB Power Delivery specification, which is available on other connectors too, including USB-A.
Most chargers support "dumb charging" in addition to Power Delivery. I have yet to find one that can't charge a cheap USB-C torch or bike light, which most definitely does not enumerate on USB.
Both USB-A USB 2.0 and its USB-3.0 counterpart do not have any form of USB-PD.
USB-PD is about the CC1 and CC2 pins (mirrored) of the USB-C connector, for both signalling and power-source, also for marker cables and marker-chips that can be present in the cable. These chips can also perform SERDES re-driver/re-clocking and other signal integrity restoration functions of 10+ Gbps signals, and are the cause of the pain of 'too many USB-C to USB-C cable variants'. USB-C cables are also limited in length (3 meters), USB 2.0 offers 480 mbps over up to 5 meters if both device and host transceivers/PHYs are tested against the old USB-IF standards, without any elecctronics and redrivers in cables or their connectors.
The USB-A / USB 2.0 'battery charging' spec defines how D+ and D- need to be connected and sampled by the device.
There is no logic to be implemented on USB-A power-source side, just connecting D+ to D- will suffice.
For USB-A, I prefer the USB-microB and USB-3.0-microB variants, clear spec and decent speeds.
USB Power Delivery (USB-PD) rev 1 was released in 2012. 3 years before the first Type C devices came out. So yes, USB PD did work with USB-A (and USB-B).
USB PD rev 1 did need a PD aware USB cable, so you couldn't just drop in any old USB cable. This wen't up to 100W (5A at 20v).
This was also separate from the earlier USB battery charging spec.
The Type-C Specification 1.0, came out in 2014, with the first devices to get USB Type C coming out in 2015. i.e. 3 years after USB PD had been in use.
USB PD Rev. 2.0 came out in 2016, (as part of USB 3.1), and this added Type C.
"Most chargers support "dumb charging" in addition to Power Delivery. I have yet to find one that can't charge a cheap USB-C torch or bike light, which most definitely does not enumerate on USB."
One of the "fixes" for a "dead" laptop is to plug in the USB-C charger and leave it for a while (service manual says up to 6 hours, my experience is more like 10-15 mins) where the main battery is so dead because the user ran it all the way down till it shut off then kept trying to turn it back on again, maybe long enough to boot up, do a few mins work and have it power off again. I've supposed the issue is that it's so dead, that for it's own protection, the battery shuts down entirely and the PD charger can't negotiate voltage/power and so goes into a "limp" or trickle-charge mode until the battery decides there's enough joules inside to start operating normally. I could be entirely wrong here, but based on what I've seen and comments here, it seems to fit.
Let the market decide. Mandating a standard freezes progress. USB C was set by industry as a standard and when something better comes along there will be a new industry standard that will replace it unless governments prevent that from happening.
There is a recent example where the EU screwed up car charging by mandating CCS instead of waiting for the market to figure things out. In the US the government stayed out of it which allowed the industry to drop CCS and move to the vastly superior Tesla plug, now called J3400 or NACS. Europeans will be stuck with that massive and heavy CCS connector for years until wireless charging replaces it which could be decades away.
To be honest, I would rather not have any standard operated, specified, licensed, controlled or determined by a single company. Especially not Tesla.
The whole of Europe don't seem to be crying out for a better charger, including several countries with the fastest / highest EV adoption rates.
FYI, China has yet-another-standard which only goes up to 250kW, the Type 2 CCS goes up to 500kW and the Tesla superchargers only go up to 250 kW of power, "but this is not the maximum the NACS connector is capable of."
So apart from "awkwardness" (for which UK mains plug would have been removed from circulation 50 years ago if that was a primary criteria), there's nothing wrong with CCS.
The only thing "vastly superior" (dubious) is that the Tesla charging cable is thinner because it shares AC and DC charging. Whereas the CCS is the only one that allows both at the same time with the same cable and no "protocol" / "negotiation" jiggery pokery to decide whether to put 500kW of AC down a DC line or not.
I know which I'd rather have.
"Let the market decide."
Why? "Let the market decide" implies that consumers will choose what is best, the rest falling by the wayside. The reality is that the "market" is controlled by corporate marketing departments, not engineers or consumers. What makes you think either consumers or marketeers they can do better than engineers at picking the bets standard? Markets will sell what they think they can make the most money on and consumers will buy whatever tat they think is cheapest and "good enough".
It's not all that long ago that here in the UK, "the market" was quite happy to have towns with different electricity networks, Different voltages, different frequencies of AC and even DC delivery. It took government regulation to standardise that. And guess what? Technology has changed, things have moved on, even the generation methods have changed, and yet we still all use that same "standard" ~230VAC mains power supply. We just use adaptors when we need lower, non-AC voltages.
Our government can't get their act together to get companies to play ball and agree on a standard.
What they *can* do however is add an additional tax onto the consumers when they buy a device with i.e future USB-D ports.
Is this good? Is this bad? Either way, us plebs will be paying more.
But there are plenty of adaptors. Things become annoying when they use this to block imports. What happens when tourists bring their non-compliant kit in - is it confiscated at customs? What happens if I want to add to my collection of Japanese phones and they aren't USB-C. Does my package get held at the border?
Official standards are common, but governments are bad tech standards makers. The South Korean government mandated the use of Microsoft’s ActiveX for online security. It took them years to fix the mess that caused. Once they get a feel for this, they won't stop. More will follow. They want to replicate the Chinese internet experience in the West, and this is a good way of doing it. So, no real problem for standardising on USB-C as it will happen anyway, but this sort of thing may be a problem in the future: Government blocking unlicensed versions of Linux or non-standard browsers etc.
The current EU law is basically "any new device on this list of types of device brought to market in the EU after x date must have USB-C"
Nothing about banning tourists from bringing in their noncompliant stuff, nothing about mandating back-fitting of USB-C to old stuff, and nothing about modifying unsold stock or even changing stuff made to an existing design.
It would be mad if the UK was more restrictive than this, and I highly doubt they would be as it wouldn't make any sense.
The problem with using small USB ports for charging is that they are fragile and break easily if you plug them in and out every day. They are not robust enough and they are often soldered to the motherboard and not easily replaceable. Manufacturers use this as a form of planned obsolescence. I've had three Lenovo thinkpads die from that within weeks of the warranty running out. I've had to buy magnetic adapters for my other devices to stop the same thing happening.
Why can't we have a larger and more robust connector? Or something magetic that doesn't suffer from wear and tear and can't damage the pins or wrench the socket off the board if it gets bumped or pulled.
But the UK standard must have some differences to the EU one, because, you know, Brexit. So there must be consultation to work out which difference can be most expensive and irritating to prove UK superiority and show that Brexit is working.
I hoped I'd get less cynical with a change of government. Sadly we don't seem to have had one since 2010.
The UK mains plug is a worldwide leader in robustness. It is the definition of a robust connector - It is intrinsically safe. I believe that the UK standard charging plug should reflect this robustness. As solid as the British empire.
You should select the 30 amp Anderson plug as a suitable standard - it is good for 30 amps at 24volts - 720W - You can tread on it, drive over it - do anything to it and it survives. The phone may not, but the connector will survive.
USB C is far to delicate for the British consumer to even consider.
It's to avoid "dumping".
The UK didn't adopt the requirement, so everything that's 230V and doesn't comply is likely to get dumped on the UK market.
On the other hand, it's too late. By the time anything could change, the manufacturers will have already dumped their outdated crap and everything will be USB-C anyway.
"It may also allow manufacturers to "unbundle" the sale of a charger, meaning that consumers have the option to purchase new devices without a charger."
I can't remember the last time I got a charger with a USB powered device. I didn't get one with any of my last 3 phones at least, and certainly I didn't get one with my most recent Samsung tablet, or the rechargable coffee grinder that uses USB C, or the label printer, or my earphones, over-ear headphones, Bluetooth speaker or DAB radio.
With the kind of market knowledge this committee demonstrate, I'm amazed they're even aware USB-C exists...
The absence of a charging plug with any of these devices hasn't made them any cheaper.
I recall the whole big fuss Apple made about not including a charger would be good for the environment, yet they'll happily sell you a new charger for £20. They should have included a voucher in the box that you can redeem for a charger in an Apple store, if you really want one, leaving the choice in the hands of the user.
It's also meant that people are now just buying total random crap off Amazon, at least with the charger plug included, you'd at least get a safe OEM product.
In any case isn't it handy to have a spare charger, stick it in your work bag/draw at the office etc
How many "spare" chargers do you need? I have at least a dozen devices at home that use USB-C to charge, I don't need a dozen chargers, especially as I can charge my phone by plugging it into my computer at work, or one of the handy USB chargers built into plug sockets in coffee shops.
Yes we should have a standard, but there's a chance that the standard will inhibit a future breakthrough which is better than USB-C in some way
If EU, India and potentially the US have the standard, then all devices will be made to that standard anyway - So maybe it's pointless
What does need to end is mini-USB and micro-USB devices - If a device is USB it should be USB-C. Simple!
It'll be a great idea until USB-C is no longer viable because better interfaces were developed, except cell phones will never be able to use them because they are mandated to USB-C.
And before someone says "they can change the law" sure, but how long will that take? How long did it take them to pass this one?
Or, what will probably happen in practice, there will be a period when devices have two charging systems. The mandatory USB-C (which will cost about 5 cents to fit) and the new, better, system which will take over over time, and eventually they can stop installing the built-in CD-ROM drive. Oops, sorry, the built-in USB-C port.
> "Even Apple has reluctantly accepted USB-C"
Is there any evidence for this?
It's well-known that Apple objected to the EU regulation. However they made it crystal clear that their objection was NOT with the USB-C technology itself, but rather with the idea that regulations should include technology-specific mandates at all. They said it sets a bad precedent - once regulators get in the habit of making technnology-specific laws, they'll start doing it in progressively more inappropriate ways in future, which would hinder innovation. Apple took the position that regulations ought to be technology-agnostic as a matter of principle.
By saying "Apple reluctantly accepted USB-C" you're imputing a motive to Apple's objection that is totally different from the one they gave. I've never seen or heard any evidence for this. They certainly took their sweet time migrating iPhone to USB-C. But it's highly probable they would have done it anyway, without any regulation - but only when THEY were ready. I say this because Apple were early adopters of USB-C on many of their other devices.
There's always a but.
I've recently bought a couple of devices that are waterproof, and they both use (different) magnetic USB charging cables so the water doesn't get in. Can you get a waterproof bog-standard USB-C socket?
But life has got easier with USB-C being ubiquitous. Although they can be weird still. I got a phone with a 66W charger (it's great for a rapid charge) but the charger uses a USB-C socket for output, so I need a cable with USB-C at borh ends.
Time to have a clear-out of all the spare chargers and foot-long cables.
USB-C can never be waterproof (like any other USB port) because the standard only describes the socket and associated signalling etc.
The enclosures/housing on any device have always been up to the manufacturer(s) of said devices to manufacture as required for their individual product(s).
Yes - depending on what you mean by waterproof.
My phone is designed to handle 1m submersion, and it has what looks like a bog standard USB-C port.
The connector is a waterproof version that ensures the phone internals don't get wet. The connector will fill with water though so it cannot be charged while underwater, and it has some clever detection that tells me it's wet and isn't charging until it dries out.
USB-C connectors that seal while made so can remain connected underwater do exist, but are somewhat more expensive.
I don't think there are any that can be made and broken while actually underwater, as that's an extremely difficult thing to do.
It's great that we in the UK can spend scarce tax payer money on checking that the EU decision on using USB-C as the universal charging connection.
That's truly monumental. I really can't say what the review is going to state.
Monumental waste and a sign of our times.
The only issue i have with USB-C plugs is the fragility of the plug itself. They seem to bend/break at the slightest bit of pressure and i'm talking cables from "good" quality manufacturers here. I've been through more USB-C charging cables than i have lightning or previous iterations of USB. Unless they improve that aspect of the plug, is it really going to solve the issue of waste? People are just going to end up buying more cables as the plug is more easily breakable.
Um, yeah - for "personal devices" (whatevs that means), USB-C FTW. No consultation needed, just propose in in to law and move on (after defining the appliances the std applies to). No more silly bullet connectors etc. Once that's done, put the standardisation effort in to the power tool connectors, then car connectors, and eventually the industrial connectors. This is not a hard problem - and it's not as if we haven't done it before (AC plugs. fuses, train tracks, headphone jacks, hdmi etc.....)
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