If Dell's Qualcomm-powered Copilot+ PC is typical of the genre, other PCs are toast Across the 30 years I've used laptop PCs, they've always made me anxious about battery life. Dell's XPS 13 9345 Copilot+ PC powered by Qualcomm's Snapdragon Elite X is the first Windows PC to relieve me of that worry and let me confidently leave my desk for a full working day without carrying any charging apparatus whatsoever – …
I've got a full version of office 2016 still which does a good job. I'm now wondering if its cloudier than 2010? I does have the option of using Onedrive but I don't use that.
About the laptop... I can sympathise with the El Reg over the size of keyboards being a fat fingered 6ft tall IT ape, but it does sound like the +++ of that battery is going to be desirable enough for lots of people, especially field sales.
Trackpads are OK, but I almost always carry a small Logitech mouse as I find it faster and more accurate. I suppose a couple of strategically placed stickers could help define the trackpad area. It also feels as if a small amount of effort on Dell's part would make not just a good machine by a great machine. Raised rubber keys for one and an indent around the pad et voila.
Not sure how I'd feel about the function keys, I would have to try them out, but it sounds like all it does is slow you down marginally. Good thing they're not the most used keys comparatively speaking.
This post has been deleted by its author
"Trackpads are OK"
*Track*pads were always OK in my book, but as soon as the fad for *click*pads came along a few years back, I found myself cursing every single one I've encountered, no matter which manufacturer is responsible for the laptop into which it was embedded, because there's clearly something inherent to their design which means they all suffer to a greater or lesser extent from a complete inability to track my finger position accurately. So bad are they, that I'd happily choose (if only manufacturers would make this a configuration option) to buy a laptop without one fitted at all and rely entirely on using a seperate mouse.
I don't a personal licence, so on licences and equipment provided by my employer, I'm stuck with whatever "version" 365 is up to.
My (apparently dodgy) copy of 2010 didn't survive the "upgrade" from Win7 to Win10 back when Win7 support ended. It deactivated in the process and stayed dead. Whoops.
To ebay, I guess...
> To eBay
Around a dozen years ago I inadvertently bought 2 fake copies of Office 2007 Home & Student on eBay - genuine packaging but the holographic CD surface was a sticker and the CoA was clearly non-standard, so I followed MS’s instructions and sent them to MS (in Ireland) to be exchanged for the real thing.
Eventually (long after I sourced what my client needed from elsewhere) they sent me the real thing, but not quite the same thing: a single copy of Office 2010 Professional - which now sits, unopened, in my “keep it just in case” box... for the day when I can no longer use Office 2000 :) I’m told 2000 now works well in WINE (it didn’t use to) so that day might never come. Currently I have to use Office 365 for work, mainly Excel, and boy do I hate it! Soooo slooow, and oozing new features that just get in the way.
- Does this include applications that require custom (non-Microsoft developed) device drivers?
- For instance a device driver that has x86/x64 assembly language directly coded in it? (maybe 50% do).
- Is Windows emulating Intel/AMD-based device drivers as well?
- We use custom device drivers for hardware that our applications use. When someone mentioned trying one of these SnapDragon PCs with our software - I was doubtful that any of the drivers would even install. I guess we're going to have to try it.
- Or are these just "run-of-the-mill" applications using MS/Windows ported/supplied device drivers for the laptop's standard hardware?
(This smells like another Win-RT debacle - ya know, where everything written in pure .NET will just run everywhere - NOT!)
In-line emulation works pretty well. OK so Microsoft's version isn't as good as that found on the Apples or even a well tweaked kvm setup on Linux, but it isn't that bad. Sure it will cost perhaps 10 fold instructions compared to native, but this just shows you how much time most machines are idle, and given a much lower power draw it probably only huts battery 4 or 5 times over.
Of cause it works on "x86/x64 assembly language directly coded in it" - it has to work on binary - all compiled code is in this format. not everything is JIT - not even all Java and Python :-)
Where it won't work is hard coded address spaces if there isn't the special hardware underneath it.
More seriously though - why would you have x86/amd64 binary drivers for devices soldered onto the motherboard of an arm64 machine? Dell are not the best but even they tend to supply the correct drivers for the hardware they ship...
Probably the main reason for Rosetta 2 working so well was Apple's push to convert all of the x86 software to just using the AMD-64 extensions. This made translation much easier as Rosetta 2 didn't have to deal with all the cruft dating back to the 8008 that became part of the 80386 instruction set. That and adding a couple of instructions to the M-series that handles some of the unique aspects of their amd64 implementation.
- Does this include applications that require custom (non-Microsoft developed) device drivers?
Unlikely, unless those drivers have ARM versions.
- For instance a device driver that has x86/x64 assembly language directly coded in it? (maybe 50% do).
I'd be very suprised if 50% of drivers have assembly code in them these days. Most don't.
- Is Windows emulating Intel/AMD-based device drivers as well?
It's emulating x86/x64, it's not emulating device drivers. Drivers need to be written for the system.
- We use custom device drivers for hardware that our applications use. When someone mentioned trying one of these SnapDragon PCs with our software - I was doubtful that any of the drivers would even install. I guess we're going to have to try it.
You will have to provide ARM versions of your drivers. Just like you had to provide x64 versions when the x86/x64 switch happened.
- Or are these just "run-of-the-mill" applications using MS/Windows ported/supplied device drivers for the laptop's standard hardware?
That. Although I would assume device manufacturers are already porting drivers. Most will just require a re-compile I expect.
This isn't for running edge cases, it's for running 90% of the software people use under ARM whilst the infrastructure catches up.
As I understand it, drivers are not emulated, but any other application is. So your drivers will need ARM versions, the same way that 64-bit drivers were required for 64-bit Windows. However, it's pretty different from Windows RT. You can take an application that doesn't hook directly into the kernel and run it under emulation. It shouldn't matter what that application contains, even if you hand-coded it in X86 or X64 assembly. So probably your custom driver systems are going to need an ARM driver to work, but you've still assumed too little compatibility.
I've said it before. MS have tried non-x86 versions of Windows- and abandoned them and their users as soon as they didn't take off- so many times that only a mug would trust them not to do it again until they have something that's *very* clearly well-established with all the issues ironed out.
Difference here is that Microsoft are not having to recreate a hardware ecosystem, it already exists and is supported by more companies than x86. I wouldn't be surprised at some point a Windows xx release will appear on Arm before x86 in the very near future.
Are you talking about the Qualcomm Snapdragon and supporting hardware, or ARM in general? Regardless, that's all great, but how much of that hardware support applies to Windows specifically as opposed to Android?
I mean, we've already had one earlier attempt at Windows on ARM that MS happily ditched, so that doesn't prove much.
And yes, what you said *might*- emphasis on *might*- happen this time round. I'm not denying that, I'm saying that- given MS's past record of support for Windows on non-x86 CPUs- I wouldn't take that or any assumptions of how far that compatibility goes on trust. Nor would I bet my own time and money on it until it actually *does* happen and has been proven.
I would expect that 'typical', non-demanding Windows applications would run without issue; i.e. Office, etc. But get something demanding or especially requiring some type of specialized hardware support and it's going to fall flat on its face - and why we can't leave x86/x64 Windows behind any time soonish.
It does work but you have to use a workaround.
See: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/74607806/is-it-possible-to-install-sql-server-on-windows-11-running-on-parallels-on-mac-m
It worked a treat for me and I got an app that needed MSSQL up and running in no time.
Among my collection of junk PC's for tinkering I have a somewhat elderly 2008 era HP 2250 laptop. Someone in their design teams back then decided to stuff a touchbar above the keyboard for the volume adjustment and a few hotkeys - it's borderline unusable thanks to no physical feedback.
You'd have thought after the Apple touch bar mess several years ago that designers would have given up on those ideas by now.
I guess at least Dell haven't popped the power key into the keyboard next to the Delete key like some other business laptops produced by HP and Dell recently...
The F and K keys are supposed to have little raised nubs on them for touch typists. These keyboards, the nubs are so small and flat as to be useless - same as all the keys just are an expanse of flat.
I'll stick with a desktop, really big screens for aging eyes, and a proper work surface and chair for real work.
Mobility? That's where tablets and smartphones come in.
Was in a Starbucks the other day, the people hunched over their laptops "working" was kind of pitiful to see. I'll stick to my home office. Laptops aren't made for serious work, with their tiny screens and keyboards.
(Posted from a tablet because that's all I need for email and the web - a 10" $100 tablet that can run all day on a single charge).
Agreed. I have one of Apples supposedly fast M-chip powered MacBooks and it's slow as hell despite all the pundits who will tell you otherwise.
My 5 year old desktop is much faster and cost half the price to build.
If I need a mobile computer I'll use my phone, tablet, Steam Deck or maybe even my watch.
"The F and K keys are supposed to have little raised nubs on them for touch typists"
I ended up with a laptop with no raised nubs on F and J and put a tiny blob of Araldite resin on the keys so I could feel them for touch typing.
I'm surprised how many regular computer users can't touch type, my GP being a prime example, it is painful to watch him slowly hunting and pecking at the keys with his index finger. I swear half the appointment time is wasted in this manner.
>> But kudos to you for admitting in public that you go into Starbucks.
Was there to pick up food they were donating to the homeless shelter I volunteer at (retirement means more opportunities to do new things). Starbucks has been a reliable donor to local community groups for quite some time, without making any publicity-seeking noise about it.
"I'll stick with a desktop, really big screens for aging eyes"
17" screen laptop for my ageing eyes. Multiple desktops under KDE makes it effectively bigger as far as having more applications open is concerned.
"a proper work surface"
I can't remember when I last saw a proper work surface. All the stuff stacked on it, yes, surface no.
This is always what happens when "designers" have free reign and nobody considers usability.
You get the power button right next to "delete" and directly above "backspace" (yes, this is what I have on my work HP laptop - what could possibly go wrong?), a keyboard which looks sleek but is a pain in the arse to type on, and trackpads that are so large you could land a 747 on them and which you have to disable whilst typing because you keep catching them with your wrist and moving the cursor.
If only someone at Dell, HP etc. could try testing a prototype in the real-world first before realising that these are stupid ideas that should be nuked from orbit...
I am pleased that my OS has an option to disable the touch pad if there is a mouse plugged in. I don't get on with touchpads - they don't work at all well for e.g. placing components on a PCB - and as a rule I don't use them if there's a mouse available.
Muscle memory... ymmv.
One of my wife's work laptops had the power button at the back right edge, just where you naturally held the machine when pushing in the power lead on the back left edge... you can imaging the cursing as you rush to plug it in before the battery dies and promptly turn it off. Fortunately that batch also had batteries that swelled noticeably in a few weeks so it soon went away!
Have an upvote from me - I had a MacBook Pro with the touch bar, and I was sorry to see there wasn’t one when I was sent an M1 Pro. Once the muscle memory got going on it, I found it really useful for daft little things like being able to click OK/Cancel in dialogs without using the trackpad, swapping tabs, controlling music player and volume, and various other bits and bobs. It just felt to me that people had decided that it wasn’t going to work without actually trying it out.
Something I do with my computers is disable the power button in Windows (set as "do nothing"). I shut down in software, but I did that anyway. A laptop I would sleep by closing, if you're willing to trust "modern standby" not to cook it. Press and hold will still force a shutdown for emergencies.
Ort does that keyboard shot remind me of a Sinclair QL - except that had shallow cups for the fingertips on the key caps.
The problem with the copilot (or any other AI) search button is that you have no idea where the result is coming from. I looked up something scientific the other day on a normal search and immediately disregarded the top three hits as they were from "natural health and wellbeing" sites and talking complete woo-woo marketing tosh. If that data had been amalgamated into an AI result I would not have be able to discount the invalid information as it would just be mixed into the luke warm "information soup" spilling from whichever AI data blender is in vogue with no way of ensuring validity or verifying accuracy. AI buttons may have their uses but how long will it be before we forget why knowing the source of material matters?
Where I work, we have one 'PC' that's actually a tablet with an add-on keyboard. (Which has no point given it's used for point-of-sale and even the touch-screen is ignored).
The keyboard, which looks *very* like the one here, is obviously *very* slim for portability above all with no spacing between the keycaps and, worse, so little travel it may as well be a ZX81.
I *loathe* that keyboard.
That design alone would put me off the laptop in question.
Not that this is your fault, and it's grossly unfair and iniquitous that for some reason I hold you responsible, but... your comment has just sent me down the 8-bit emulation rabbit hole, and before I knew it, I found myself downloading a Dragon 32/64 emulator, playing its games, and reading far more information about that platform than is healthy.
I had already done the above for the ZX81, Spectrum, and QL, some years ago :)
What's it like in 6809-land? I remember my mate getting all excited because he had been given a sample 6809 board with a graphics chip that could draw 1million pixels per second! Most of us were fiddling around with green screen vector graphics driven by a PDP at the time :-)
The Dragon 32 emulator showed the machine to be a riot of migraine-inducing shades of magenta/puce/cyan, and extremely blocky low-res graphics. So in other words, exactly the same as every other British built-down-to-a-budget micro of that era. Didn't try any development on it so I can't really offer an opinion on 6809 vs. 6502 or Z80, sorry.
OK, I get it, the Arm platform is new and shiny.
But what I need - what my colleagues need - is a Latitude with an Arm processor in it. Something normal. Something that looks and acts just like their old laptops, has a similar price, but gives them the longer battery life.
I've tried getting an Arm device or two for our senior management and it's been rebuffed by Finance. I want to test this to make sure everything works - I've done my checks and it mostly looks OK - but I don't want to have to buy a "special" device with an odd keyboard and trackpad.
I want it to look like all the others, but be a bit better than them.
Sort it out, Dell.
It's like electric cars.
I want a car like my petrol car- everything manual, touchable, grabbable, everything with its own dials and lights in a fixed location related to its function. And no 'updates', unless it's a new set of tyres.
The only discernable difference should be the lack of exhaust pipe rattle, (which I should really get looked at...).
There is no electric car like that. If there was, I'd buy it now.
Ahem. But back to the lappy- impressive that the Arm runs x86 transparently. The rest- keep it.
RE it's like electric cars the BMW i3 range extender, original Hyundai Ioniq plug in, the Volvo xc90 T8 twin engine were all all normal (automatic) cars that happened to use not much fuel and could if and when we sort sustainable big batteries and a charging infrastructure fit for use become battery electric vehicles given the full electric propulsion was a mode on them and another model in the case of the Ioniq and i3. Not enough people spent enough money for a profit so now we all get SUV's from space and we should like it we are told.
Or (in the case of the GMC Hummer EV) something that looks down to earth but still has a price somewhere in low earth orbit.
my next vehicle is going to be a used car from the 80's or early 90's in good cosmetic shape (or at least that can be restored to good cosmetic shape) with the old ICE drivetrain ripped out and electric retrofitted into it.
my next vehicle is going to be a used car from the 80's or early 90's in good cosmetic shape (or at least that can be restored to good cosmetic shape) with the old ICE drivetrain ripped out and electric retrofitted into it.
I got a quote for fitting an electric powertrain (from a written-off EV) to my Citroën DS, It would be fast, which is good, and have a range of 300 miles, which is good. Unfortunately it would cost me £85,000. I think I'll wait until a lot more EVs have been crashed ...
I want a car like my petrol car- everything manual, touchable, grabbable, everything with its own dials and lights in a fixed location related to its function. And no 'updates', unless it's a new set of tyres
I have an induction hob with actual physical knobs you turn to adjust the power. Much nicer that the slide-your-finger-along-the-glass sort.
What price are you seeing?
€946 for a 16GB Memory , 512GB SSD, 8 core snapdragon 5455 is about 100 quid cheaper than the similar intel 5450
OrderNum : s009l545014ukie_vp - Intel €1,060.31 excluding VAT
compared to gctol5455emea_vp - Qualcomm €945.77 excluding VAT
on the Dell premier site for SME.
I was seeing more like £1700, but I admit I was doing about three other things at the time - a standard Monday!
When I have time I'll check which models the UK is getting and do some more research. Those figures do look somewhat better! Thanks for the guidance. I'm glad to know that sensible Arm machines may finally be in reach...
Part of it may have to do with RAM speed. The Snapdragon X uses on-package LPDDR5X at 8448 MT/s while I'd assume the i9 uses DDR5 DIMMs at (maybe) 6400 MT/s and so would have to wait on memory more often (the MT/s of the LPDDR5X is 32% higher than the DDR5 in this example). It reminds me of how Granite Rapids with MRDIMM at 8800 MT/s is faster than with DDR5-6400.
Lunar Lake, with on-package LPDDR5X-8533 (11,000 on Cinebench?), might be a better comparison to Snapdragon X than i9.
But that was Cinebench R23 (emulated on ARM) -- the new Cinebench 2024 is native on x86 and ARM and looks not so good for multi-thread Lunar Lake so far (but Ryzen is okay, and so is single-thread).
With an adequate keyboard and trackpad, and without Copilot? I have no use for this laughable "artificial intelligence", I don't want it, I didn't ask for it, and if MS have spare resource there's still a huge amount of stuff in Windows, Office and elsewhere that was never right and still needs fixing.
Perhaps MS could shove Copilot and its evil twin, Recall somewhere they'll never be seen again?
Just finished a new build and went out of my way to avoid an NPU. If I wanted to do AI, I would do REAL AI, neural networks, etc. that we comeback in the '90s.
An NPU is just more silicon open to exploits - same as rowhammer for RAM.
I would pay extra to avoid an NPU. Devote the space for more real compute units.
I have one of these laptops and I actually quite like the touchpad. It's one of those things that sounds awful in theory, but in practice isn't really an issue. It looks sleeker and is much easier to clean my finger grease off. For those wondering, it ends halfway across the Alt and AltGr keys.
Unlike El Reg's reviewer, I actually like the keyboard too and find it very easy to type on.
The function keys are a bit weird, but I hardly use them anyway so its not a big deal to me.
"Usabillity"? nobody gives a fart in a hurricane about usability.
It looks good[1] and that is the only thing that matters! Just ask Apple!
[1]For specific values of "good". This one in particular looks like the death-by-boredom "Flatland" look of Windows, come to the 3rd dimension
I gave MS my middle finger 8 years ago this week after 20+ years writing software for Windows.
My PC's all run Linux (was CentOS and now Rocky Linux) and my laptop is a M1 Macbook Pro (bought secondhand).
These machines do what I want them to do. FSCK anything like CoPilot. MS has lost the plot big time and somehow, they have managed to persuade Dell to join them. As I drive past Dell UK HQ later today, I'll give them my Finger.
Back in the days when Windows netbooks were a big thing, I picked up an Aspire One on a whim and fairly quickly realised just how useful it could be as a work PC - small enough to chuck in my backpack along with a few tools, diagnostics cables etc, cheap enough not to be too precious about wanting to keep it in pristine condition (so no worries about having to find a nice clean surface to set it down whilst on a site visit) etc. The only downside was the typical Windows laptop-esque battery life.
And then I bought an extended runtime battery. Which, in addition to doing exactly what it said on the tin, and giving me 3x the runtime (i.e. easily enough to spend all day on site without access to a charger, whilst also acting as a battery pack for my phone to keep that topped up during the day), also gave the netbook a rather more useable physical appearance - the extra bulk of the larger pack sticking out the rear underside of the netbook acted both as a way to angle the keyboard more comfortably, and also as a handy grab handle.
And yes, it is very liberating not having to give battery life a second thought.
The Register 
Biting the hand that feeds IT
Copyright. All rights reserved © 1998–2025
