Capita wins £135M extension on much-delayed UK smart meter rollout The poster child of UK outsourcing, Capita, has won a two-year extension to its license to manage the delivery of the UK's smart meter secure communications platform, a system dogged by delays. The UK-based outsourcing and IT services company won an extension to its Data Communications Company (DCC) Licence in a deal worth up …
I mean, it's Crapita. They fail to deliver on practically everything they're contracted to do, but keep getting major contracts because they're among a handful of firms that are big enough to take them on.
Of course, the government could just accept that the only way to properly perform this business is to do it themselves on a national scale. But that would involve neoliberals not giving money to their rich mates in private enterprise, and might jeopardise their well-paid sinecures after they leave politics.
"the only way to properly perform this business is to do it themselves on a national scale"
Here in France the government mandated that everybody was to have a smart meter. Enedis, which looks after the actual wires, did a massive upgrade of the distribution network in the rural areas, then came and fitted the Linky. It was non-optional although some complained because "electromagnetic emissions equals scary" (it blasts data on the wires near midnight, not unlike a powerful CPL) but by and large everywhere has them now.
As they are owned by a third party (Enedis (*)), they will take the readings and forward them to your provider, so it doesn't matter whose bill you pay.
Plus, the ability to report continual consumption (and thus track your energy use in near real-time) is opt in. If you don't opt, it'll report daily.
But, then, the previous government was far too corrupt to do the right thing here.
* - This is not technically true, they are actually owned by the town mayor for weird historical reasons, but it's Enedis that installs/manages/operates the things so...
I've found that the issue is that the departments lack the ability to clearly define what is required up front.
Usually the person defining what is needed is sufficiently divorced from the frontline that the solution requested is unusable or inadequate.
I've seen this happen with two large contracts replacing a working system, where the incumbent was a small UK specialist software house (domain specialist) lost out to the larger outsourcing company.
We then sat on the sidelines supporting the old system for more than 10years while attempt after attempt was made to create a new system with just the equivalent functionality.... primarily because they did not understand the underlying technology and data and how it is used by the users to do their job...
I believe they visited my area during the weekdays when most people would be at home. They concluded that benefits need to go up, paid for by an increase in "whatever taxes those people with jobs have to pay" (fully compatible with a policy of tax breaks for the people who buy politicians their clothes).
Not that anybody came knocking but even if they had it would have been pointless to raise objections about Crapita, Crap Gemini and F***itjsu as both main parties are in the pockets of firms such as these + they believe all the nonsense they spew re the benefits of outsourcing vs having people employed by the primary organisation who actually know what they're doing. For example, Rachel Reeves is trying to revive the zombified corpse that is PFI because obviously it went so well last time out!?!
Never mind that the smart meter rollout programme was catastrophically stupidly run from the off as it has achieved its primary objective of the redistribution of wealth (£13.5bn and counting) from us peasants to incompetent multinational corporates. See https://montypython.fandom.com/wiki/Dennis_Moore for further political comment.
The really mindbending part of this is that there are two separate technologies deployed. In the north of England and Scotland it's a wide-area radio network (apparently proprietary) operated by Arqiva. The southern part of the island uses moblile phone technology. Those two contracts are presumably intended to avoid a monopoly supplier, but simply lead to two entirely separate sets of problems in poor signal areas. And of course Capita sits on top of the whole edifice, presumably so the headcount doesn't get added to the civil service.
So, we have a bunch of quasi-monopolistic operations and incompatible implementations largely set up to maintain the fiction that we have functioning competition in the energy supply sector, even though the price cap and various other government regulations mean the supposedly "independent" retailers have little freedom of movement, except to go bust with energy customers forced to pick up the cost.
The French run their smart meters over the powerline network, which isn't perfect (long rural cables, for example), but seems to work more reliably in the general case.
The French run their smart meters over the powerline network
I seem to recall that being illegal in the UK. It doesn't stop powerline networking kit being rolled out, but I have a feeling if it interferes anything Ofcom have the power to lock you in a room while using their budget for rubber hose in the intended manner (metaphorically speaking, of course).
"The French run their smart meters over the powerline network"
Sort of but not really.
The Linky does dump data onto the network but you know it'll not survive the 230V <> 11kV transformer. So what happens is each segment has a little cream box somewhere. This box receives all of the messages from the meters on that bit of the 230V network, and it is then sent via mobile. The box that serves me is mounted on a pole half a kilometre away, probably chosen as the place with the best reception.
This is arguably a better alternative than every Linky trying to get a mobile signal out, my house has thick solid stone walls and it's in a dip. Can't receive anything chez moi...
was going to say the same about the French smart meter system, much better than our shambles as any poor fecker in the middle of no where will tell you.
We had a meter installed that didn't work (not even commissioned) for 2 years! Installer shouldn't have even installed it, but did, and just fecked off when the meter wasn't getting a signal. We're in Cornwall so use the telefonica mobile network (basically O2) we get a signal outside the house but not inside as its old with thick walls, indeed my daughter was on GiffGaff and couldn't get a signal in the house, me and the wife on EE are fine. Once you go off piste with an issue you're buggered as you have to deal with your energy provider who then deal with the DCC and you get stuck in the middle of the shambles. the origonal energy provider who installed the meter went titsup its replacement then went titsup (I got no where with both) I already had a T2 (larger aerial) fitted but it has a pathetic 2m cable that goes from the aerial to the meter, ALL I needed was a aerial with a longer (5M) cable I could then place the aerial near a window from where it could get a signal, GOD knows it should have been simple enough, but NOPE! You can only get a T3 aerial (this has a longer cable and is designed to be mounted externally) if agreed to by the DCC which will only agree if you're in a poor signal area according to their reception maps. So our house is fine, yes if you're OUTSIDE, certainly NOT fine where my meter is, aaaaarrrrggggghhhhhhhh! Any road up EVENTUALLY I managed to get the meter replaced by shell (after the 3rd provider went titsup and Shell were the provider of last resort, for the 2nd time!) As the meter hadn't even been commissioned they had to replace it rather than attempting to commission it with an installers visit. Lucky for me in the proceeding 2 years enough of my neighbors must have had working smart meters installed so my new meter now connects via a mesh network (still no WAN signal) but has now been working for 2 years. The 2 years of non working cost us well over £1k as the wife has an EV as a company car and we couldn't access cheap EV tarrifs as we didn't have a working smart meter. Not having a smart meter isn't just inconvenient or a bit of a pain it can cost you HARD CASH! :-( The whole rollout is an utter sh1t show which isn't surprising when you look who's running it!
Suppliers to Gov don't like opensource because they're no-one to sue if it all goes titsup [i].
They don't understand the "if it breaks, you get to keep the pieces" principle of opensource.
[i] Yes, a supplier actually said that when I was in a discussion on secure email for local government, and a district council in the SW had built one using opensource. The potential supplier wasn't willing to take that on and run it as PaaS. Not that they called it that, this was 2005 and that moniker was hardly A Thing.
And one assumes need an awful lot less (expensive to run) infrastructure.
The "Keep it simple" methodology has long gone our of many projects. Another prime example is HS2 where for some obscure (willy-waving reason) we had to have 225mph running trebling the cost instead of 175mph.
From what I can see Arqiva are using a "Long-Range Radio" system from a US company - Sensus. Branding seems to be FlexNet, but they don't seem to provide much technical details/any idea on what's based. Mesh network. Obviously using licensed spectrum (400MHz, 870MHz?) so they can put a little bit of power behind the transmission.
Had two calls in one day from what sounded like an AI bot about installing a smart meter for my gas supply. I know, I know, why didn't I block the number on the first attempt? Second time I told them never to call me again, take me off your list. After a five second pause, the bot replied that I did not need to shout.
Had two calls in one day from what sounded like an AI bot about installing a smart meter for my gas supply.
I keep getting these, even though I keep telling them not to call. I also keep asking for Scottish Power what discounts they're offering for 'smart' meters because their sales message is that they'll somehow save me money. I also ask what compensation they'll offer for any faults with the meter or remote display. They really don't seem very confident in their product.
"I keep getting these, even though I keep telling them not to call."
ICO will step in if they're ignoring your marketing wishes (I had simliar issues with EDF)
The problem is that the fines for not rollling out enough smart meters are smaller than the fines for ignoring marketing preferences
I'm now being told my meter is approaching the end of its certification and WILL be replaced with a smart meter regardless of my wishes and forcefully if resisted.
Whilst the existing meter can be recertified, they won't do it
"ICO will step in if they're ignoring your marketing wishes"
Actually, they won't.
I had the same issue and went down the same route all the way to ICO and OFGem.
I was told that because it is government policy to roll out smart meters that overrides your "marketing preferences". So they may stop calling for a while, but OFGem require they keep at it so, as Arnie says "They'll be back".
A friend of mine works for EDF or e.ON (can't remember it bores fuck out of me) but I complained to him about these calls and he said the energy companies are legally required to ask at least once a year to do that. So they are going to call you again because there is a legal reason to do so apparently.
I don't like getting nasty with callcenter operators for this sort of thing because they're just people doing their job but I have on at least one occasion gotten myself onto a "do not call list" by becoming the nastiest , insult slinging asshole I could manage at the third call (ignoring my previous requests not be called again). Get abusive enough and they don't call again.
Also works against scam callers. Make all sorts of insinuations about their mothers, their sisters, their parents not loving them, them being a failure in the eyes of their parents, etc. They give up really really soon.
"Also works against scam callers. "
No it doesn't. Scam call centres don't have any "do not call lists", and they don't give a toss if their staff are abused (indeed, rile the agent enough and they'll be shouting abuse at you). What's more, there's a chance they'll choose your number to spoof for future calls.
What does seem to make a difference is who your telco is. My VOIP A&A line almost never gets scam calls, when the same number was with Virgin Media we'd get several a day.
"indeed, rile the agent enough and they'll be shouting abuse at you"
Victory indeed. I mean, I might actually feel hurt if it wasn't the human-shaped equivalent of a cockroach that was trying to do said abuse. Time spent by them shouting at me (and time needed for them to calm down afterwards) is time them not talking to someone who might actually fall for their bullshit. My record is for one person to shout at me so much he started losing his voice and connect me to whom I assume was his boss (whom I immediately got into shouting mode by asking him whether he was the halfwit prick who had hired that moron who couldn't even recognize someone purposefully riling them up)
As to them using my number to spoof, highly unlikely, at least in my country. The ones doing the calling are not the ones operating the calling equipment. They literally can't choose the number to spoof as they're just hiring someone to forward their VOIP lines onto the phone network on some random cell number.
You must know the old joke about the double glazing salesman who sells a woman a whole house of windows with no money down, nothing to pay for 8 months, interest free terms. The head of the finance team calls the woman after 8 months and asks her for the money.
“No” she says “I don’t owe you anything!”
“With respect madam you do owe us for your windows, the 8 months are up”
“No the salesman was very clear on this when i got them”
“Madam….”
“He said they’d pay for themselves in 6 months and it’s now been 8 months. Therefore, and I’m not an idiot, they’ve been paid for obviously. Don’t call me again.”
This entire thing smart Smart Meters really winds me up.
For many it will not save ANY money at all.
For a few it may make then think about what is left on standby etc
For another group of mainly older people it provides endless worry when they see that they are using £1 per minute on the electricity having turned the toaster or kettle on.
My other was forced to have a smart meter when the old moving wheel one had to be replaced.
She could afford her bills so there were no issues however she got into a complete tizz about the cost of turning stuff on.
Others around where she lived (the nature of the 1960s development is there are a lot of older people) were similarly affectected.
I was contacted about a smart meter, I rang my then supplier and pointed out I have a complicated install (Mains, PV, Generator feed). They said they didn't want to touch it (good) and took me off their list.
Unfortunately it seems that list had already gone to their installer subcontractor.
I got 5 calls to "arrange the fitting of the agreed on smart meter". They stopped calling after I gave up, and said if they want to send a domestic installer to what is more a commercial install, they can't hold me responsible and their tech kills themselves when they didn't do the job correctly. They accused of me threatening to kill their staff, and thankfully haven't contacted me since.
Got to love the downvoters who agree that if a supplier cancels an install, it's perfectly acceptable for their sub contractor to try to go again anyway, and try to pressure the end user into accept it, even when their staff aren't up to the job of doing the install.
I have a similar setup : Solar PV, House Battery. Solar on an older fit tariff.
I had to have a new meter fitted as my old meter ran backwards. Only found out after it had run back past the last meter reading ...
They fitted a new SMET2 meter it works fine.
I can now take advantage of topping up house battery when my supplier gives me cheap electricity time slots...
Your generator feed will be after the supply meter on the house electrics side and there will be an isolator switch to disconnect the whole house from the supply in the case of power failure on the supply side.
So I don't know why they said it was too complicated to fit a meter as I have neighbours with exactly this setup...
I live in a rural area that suffers from a lot of power cuts. My approach is to use multiple UPS and one large portable battery as a generator, cost of fitting the feed in equipment for it and it's maintenance could not be justified as the power cuts rarely exceed a few hours.
In a pre-canned statement, Capita Public Service CEO Richard Holroyd said: "We are exceptionally proud of the central role Capita plays in..
Trousering money from both energy consumers and suppliers. Which sounds like it will keep filling the trough as 4G & 5G becomes obsolete, and the next wave of 'smart' meters need replacing.
Since moving into a new house, for two years I've been asking for a smart meter every month.
Because I'm on an old radio teleswitch meter, that runs from a BBC-produced long-wave radio signal from Droitwich, which is entirely reliant on giant VALVES (I kid you not), that nobody has made in years and the BBC snapped up the entire worldwide supply of them some years back when they realised they couldn't get replacements.
When the valves blow, they can only replace them. And they only have a few replacements left. When the last one dies, they literally decommission the entire site - that's without question. There is a date published for the absolute deadline of when they expect that to be, and they've been telling the energy companies (only OVO will deal with those meters!) endlessly to move customers away as it could stop at any time, and each time the deadline approaches it's been bumped forward half a dozen times to my knowledge.
For two years, whenever I ask for a smart meter, I've been rebuffed. Every time the radio station nears it's cutoff deadline, they renew it another year because they haven't yet converted everyone on those types of meters. In fact, they haven't even STARTED really.
Now, suddenly, this month - oh yes, we can replace your meter before 9-5, M-F. Go fish. You weren't interested all this time.
I would not be surprised if this forms part of their argument for not having done the smart meter rollout, but they haven't even TRIED. "There are just over 900,000 RTS meters in Great Britain."
Nearly a million households are still reliant on VALVES and LONG WAVE to supply their electricity at the correct rate.
Sorry, but would you not have prioritised those ancient pieces of nonsense first for smart meters? Apparently not.
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BBC Droitwich transmitter was built to a custom design in the 1930s, the current Marconi one dates from the mid-80s. IIRC it uses a matched pair of valves which can handle the 500kW output and have not been made for many years and the BBC now has the whole remaining stock. The only practical approach to keeping it running would be a whole new transmitter, which is of dubious value considering how little interest there is in analogue LW (198kHz) these days.
For LW and that kind of power, there are a bunch of power silicon options IF the BBC could be bothered
Thompson Broadcast's S7HP Neo fits the bill, is available off the shelf and is widely used whilst being tiny compared to the steam radio designs that preceeded it (it will cover LW/MW/low SW)
As R4 LW is used as "the canary" by Britain's nuclear fleet, they may be compelled to be bothered by the MoD (ie: given money to buy a new Tx and funded to keep it running)
When I was a lad on work experience in the 1970's, I saw those transmitter valves being made and tested. Huge great copper things, the size of a dustbin, cooled by high pressure steam ... and yes, I said cooled. I was even given the job of modifying one of the test rigs on the production line, which unfortunately stopped working once I'd been inside. Thankfully a pair of wire-cutters removed the modifications I'd been told to add, and someone higher up went away to have a rethink.
Yes. I'm officially very, very old.
They do use them on interstellar spacecraft...And in 20 mile cubed alien machines... Apparently....
Chief Quinn: [Examining the broken klystron frequency modulator] Now with every facility of the ship I think I might be able to rebuild it. But frankly, the book says no. It came packed in liquid Boron in a suspended gravity.
Commander Adams: Alright so it's impossible, how long will it take?
Chief Quinn: Well, if I don't stop for breakfast...
------
Commander Adams: Monsters from the subconscious. Of course. That's what Doc meant. Morbius. The big machine, 8,000 miles of klystron relays, enough power for a whole population of creative geniuses, operated by remote control. Morbius, operated by the electromagnetic impulses of individual Krell brains.
Dr. Morbius: To what purpose?
Commander Adams: In return, that ultimate machine would instantaneously project solid matter to any point on the planet, In any shape or color they might imagine. For *any* purpose, Morbius! Creation by mere thought.
-----
From: Forbidden Planet.
"only OVO will deal with those meters!"
Interesting - I wanted to move off OVO to another supplier but they wouldn't accept my account for electricity due to the meter - and OVO wouldn't replace it (apparently it's OVO's responsibility to replace the meter). Now you've got me wondering if that's the kind of meter I've got.
Weird things you learn on El Reg...
We're the wrong audience. We're clued up and smart, and not afraid to look at numbers; we don't need to see the meter spinning to work out the cost. And we are also aware of the downsides. Which is wht none of us will take them.
I'm willing to accept there are people who are no so bright and for whom having a meter in the house will encourage energy saving measures. It makes it tangible and they can use basic empiricism to reduce their bills.
There's also the issue of being able to record the time of day the energy is used and so use tariffs that give you cheaper energy.
It may do if you have crappy a crappy "smart kettle" or "smart toaster" that is always consuming some power to be "smart".
Not mine. My kettle and toaster have physical swithes with physical contacts which consume zero power when off despite being left plugged in and switched "on" at the wall.
So you're getting an average unit cost of under 10p by watching the disc spin?
No - we are a different audience, but we're not all so stupid to think that the word smart means anything... The half hourly billing however is genuinely a good thing for the consumer and the grid.
"The half hourly billing however is genuinely a good thing for the consumer and the grid."
No it isn't. Wholesale has settled half hourly since the year dot, but that's the majority of what suppliers do for consumers - OK they send you a bill, but the real magic is that they take all the wholesale volume, commodity and balancing risks so you don't have to. Half hourly billing is complicated, results in unintelligible bills for consumers, nobody knows what the current rate is (and done thoroughly it varies by day as well as half hourly), but it nicely de-risks the suppliers business, so that they will take the same money for less service.
I have worked in the industry, I know full well how it works, I'm now outside the industry, and I don't want to have to give a flying fuck about the behind the scenes complexity. Sell me electricity at a flat rate, make sure the lights come on when I want them to, and they can shove their smart meters and time of use tariffs up their arses.
By all means, if people want time of use tariffs, let them have them. But when the big supplier I worked for did the analysis, over 40% of customers who were on the simplest TOU tariff, Economy 7 were actually paying higher total bills than if they'd been on flat rate. What many customers can't respond to is that TOU isn't just cheaper than flat rate off peak 'leccy, it is also more expensive than flat rate at peak times. So to really take advantage of them you need to have a very good idea of what loads you put on, and when.
At the moment, E7 or similar is OK for crappy storage heaters or EV charging, but even that is only a temporary thing over the next few years. What happens to the concept of "off peak" when more than 20% of the car fleet is being charged overnight? Add in a bit of daytime demand management, and suddenly there is no "off peak" period - the volume of flexible load will shift around, and fills in the troughs. The purpose of smart meters then won't be to enable consumers to respond to price signals, but to act as a (very half baked) means of controlling flexible load. Unfortunately the smart meter spec is so primitive that there's no smartness about it at all - simply the capability to switch off all "auxiliary loads" together. True smart demand is a very different beast, so the whole smart meter project will turn out to have an outturn price of approaching £30bn to achieve little other than making a few meter readers redundant.
My best guess: the backers of the smartmeter concept think you'll start turning things off and get under a duvet or into a sleeping bag when the meter shows that you've exceeded your weekly power and/or gas budget.
As far as I can see the only useful smartmeter feature is that its also a rather ugly digital clock.
I think every household should have to complete a survey
- I am happy for Pylons to be built in my area
- I support wind farms in my area etc
When there is a shortage of electricity, those that say no to the above get the "brown out" first via the smart meter, so they have to turn off the car charger, TV, electric blanket etc.
Or "I am happy to pay a >much< higher electricity bill to have the electric cables buried, and not to use pylons".
Whoosh ,there goes a flying pig.
I can hear the Sir Humphrey illustration of how to tailor a survey to get the answers you want ringing here!
I want it green, I want it cheap, and most importantly, I want it NOT in my backyard. The rallying cry of most of the country for so long now it is an embarrassment.
I would vary that slightly:
Those who want really cheap electricity because it is 100% renewable take the hit when overall demand exceeds supply and gas CCGT is needed have either the available load reduced or are cut off.
Too many want 100% renewable and expect cheap power but also want all the benefits of the grid where non-renewable is used to backfill without paying the cost.
"Does is magically make the ’leccy cheaper"
Not magically, but by allowing you to be billed per half hour, rather than per quarter... you get to avail yourself of time of day tariffs which do reduce energy costs, and do so by encouraging you to move consumption to times when it's cheaper (and greener).
A standard flexible tariff has a unit rate of about 26p, or 14p/32p for E7.
Using a half hourly metering I get 7p/27p
That's not magic, it's just the reality of the electricity market. Indeed with the addition of some home electronics I had an average unit rate last year of 7.5p.
Smart is the single worst description ever made - they're just half hourly meters.
Have you come across pre payment meters?
This isn't a new capability, and activating the kill switch is not something which can be done without serious steps being taken for quite some time in advance.
But if you want to pay several times more for power than I do then feel free to empty your bank account.
It's against the law to force people onto prepayment meters if they have never missed a payment.
Yet smart meters have remote disconnect capability built into their hardware, software and comms specs. So they are able to get everyone onto remote controlled meters by the back door.
Also prepayment meters didn't need a data connection..
Smart meters are just a national cyberattack waiting to happen.. And they are controlled by Crapita! Are you so confident in Crapita's IT security?
Not strictly; what stops me chucking the washing machine on timer to be finishing around the time I return home from work? Or charging the car while I walk to a friend's house? Or connecting home via a VPN, and playing some games via Moonlight?
The power used for lighting etc is pretty much a rounding error.
Now, away for a week is more obvious from the data. But then, it would also be obvious to anyone walking past the house daily too.
"It's against the law to force people onto prepayment meters if they have never missed a payment.
And... that protection is just as strong with smart meters.
"And they are controlled by Crapita! Are you so confident in Crapita's IT security?"
Not hugely - but I'm also aware that they're not actually that valuable a target. If you want to know whether there is anyone home there are plenty of ways to do so without my meter data, which isn't continuously uploaded, it's uploaded in batches - so you could conceivably work out that I was away yesterday... Far more valuable to just ring the doorbell and see if anyone answers - have a crummy block paving leaflet with you to hand off if they do.
I'm also aware that we're not just relying on a certain commercial organisation - because there are other standards at play here.
Basically John, what i'd like you, Crapita, Ofgem, and/or NGESO to demonstrate is:
That it is not technically feasible for a bad actor (and I don't mean Tom Cruise) who has already compromised Crapita's IT systems, to issue a command to a large number (say 10 million) Smart Meters and get them to "simultaneously" disconnect (i.e. within the same half-hour interval).
If such a hack is feasible, then I believe it could cause a high-frequency event big enough to cause cascade failures such as high-frequency generator disconnection, interconnector trips, etc. leading to a nationwide blackout and "black start" procedures.
It beggars belief for me that the Smart Metering spec mandated remote disconnect (for ALL, not just prepay customers) in the first place. It makes the meters more expensive, less reliable, and there is bugger all good reason to need to use the functionality. So why is it in the spec? (para. 5.5.3.9 Disable Supply)
cyberdemon:
What you need to demonstrate is that your refusal to get a smart meter would have *any* benefit in the event that there was a large scale hack of smart meters.
Because yes, cutting off 15 million households at peak load time would cause a serious grid stability issue - but so would any number of other attacks, which are probably much easier to coordinate.
The spec was no doubt written by committee, and the inclusion of a relay was deemed useful by someone - if nothing else it does allow movement to/from prepayment without an electrician. Now whether that's a sufficiently protected process is a separate debate. Prepayment should be absolutely the cheapest tariff type there is, and should come in flat and ToD varieties.
I think it's plainly obvious that I can't possibly reassure you, you're convinced that they must be bad - there is literally nothing anyone can do that will satisfy you.
Seems to me most of the people who want half hourly pricing are people with a LOT of time on their hands, to wander round their house setting up timers, or manually turning off appliances, or doing their laundry when it suits power generators etc
Replacing about 100 million meters so that tiny minority of loons can have the most complex billing ever seems a pretty poor return on investment.
Visit South Africa and experience load shedding on a daily basis, for years, first hand, and how ruinous it has been to their economy. No flashy metering needed to do it, I assure you.
No amount of clever metering can make up for shortfalls in generation and/or networks to carry the power. Eskom hasn't the budget from the central government to do what's needed , 30-years of ANC-driven garbage. Private investors wouldn't WANT to operate there either, because of aforementioned party (and a lot of it's supporters) indulging in revenge for the 300 years of prior history. For the record, I detest apartheid; but like with other social rebellions, responding in kind after "winning the revolution" is merely replacing one set of problems with another. Somewhere between the extremes lies a desirable outcome.
National TV routinely displays the system frequency, and advisories on when to switch off excess load. Failure to follow the advisories will result in disconnections.
I know some restauranteurs out there that basically had their businesses shut down because they could not reliably serve lunch or dinner without a power cut. They have pivoted and now take the chef to the home in question rather than trying to operate from central premises.
National TV routinely displays the system frequency, and advisories on when to switch off excess load. Failure to follow the advisories will result in disconnections.
this is where load limiting comes into play,
they can instruct literally millions of meters to limit load to say 5amps, thereby reducing the need to disconnect at the substation.
of course if that doesn't work they instruct the meters in the substations to disconnect instead.
The idea behind load limiting is to give people some power but not enough for big loads
Read up on radio teleswitch meters.
You could have caused a nationwide surge just by hacking a single, or making your own, powerful long-wave transmitter in Droitwich since about the 80's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch
Same way that you could hack many traffic systems for cars over the last few decades by hacking Classic FM and their RDS-TMC data feed that's broadcast in the open and public frequency of their radio station.
But I don't think it's unreasonable that there's a "disable the electricity" button on a meter - precisely when people have been abusing the fact that entry to the property has been required to do that for decades and they are probably losing millions through deliberate misuse of those rules. I think it should be in the spec.
Using it, that's another matter. I would expect a court order at minimum.
But it being present - that's sensible. The question of "what happens if someone hacks a nationwide utility service with malicious intent"? That's a far bigger question, there are far bigger targets, that can cause far more damage, and the only real answer you'll ever get is "You better hope GCHQ / NCSC are already on top of that".
It would be far, far, far, far more dangerous, for example, to have traffic lights that can accept remote commands to make them green. And I bet you we already have that too.
> It would be far, far, far, far more dangerous, for example, to have traffic lights that can accept remote commands to make them green. And I bet you we already have that too.
No, we most certainly do not.
Traffic controllers have a secondary monitoring chip (usually m68k micro, sometimes a GAL chip) that is programmable only locally. It has independent voltage sensors to detect if conflicting 'phases' (ie approaches to a junction) are green simultaneously, and will cut the power immediately if violated.
The main controller does not usually have direct network access either, it only sees a pattern of 16 bits with dedicated functions, for synchronising traffic lights across an urban network. And a bit can only 'request' a state transition, the controller will never violate min/max timings between lights.
I worked on these as my first job out of uni.
Also, I think it's pretty unlikely that someone could set up a radio transmitter big enough to drown out Droitwich, without being noticed pretty damn quick by the MoD..
As for "hacking" Droitwich, it's pretty low tech and i'd have thought fairly high security. Crapita would be a far easier target IMO
It "sounds patronising"?
What, are you six, and have just learnt the word?
Electricity is not priced like other commodities, because it has an absolute correlation between supply and demand - if you turn on a kettle then those three kW are drawn from a nearby power source.
That source, and all the others across the country have to precisely balance the supply of electricity to the demand from all consumers. Fortunately that aggregate demand is predictable, even if your individual usage isn't (do you always put the kettle on at exactly 7, or is it occasionally a minute earlier or later?).
Electricity prices therefore vary according to what is happening all over the grid - if you need to fire up another power station then that costs money, if you have a surfeit of wind then that price can go negative. Encouraging people to use energy at times when it's less damaging to the world isn't patronising - it's common sense.
And financial incentives are clearly the easiest way to do this - hence E7/E10 tariffs.
Now we have tariffs that track the wholesale price, and other incentives to shift load, and mechanisms for your energy retailer to shift your load for you.
All of those things contribute to a more stable grid, a cheaper grid, and a cleaner grid.
Yes, energy companies have neglected investing in infrastructure and now under guise of "savings" they want to put this mess on the shoulders of the poorest in the society.
If anything, it looks like energy companies were run by greedy six year olds.
"Financial incentives" - euphemism for "we messed up, grid can't cope, let's get the poor off peak and we still get sweet divvies".
All of those things contribute to a more stable grid, a cheaper grid, and a cleaner grid.
No. It means they can continue to neglect the infrastructure and reap profits whilst the poor will suffer more.
Such gaslighting.
Did you actually understand what I said? Because your reply would indicate that you didn’t.
Electricity as a commodity behaves substantially differently from any other commodity - the prices are extremely volatile, storage has a cost (low enough the arbitrage can be profitable, but substantially non zero).
The grid currently runs at ~100TWh/year below where it did a decade ago… this isn’t an infrastructure problem, it’s the same balancing supply and demand problem we’ve always had. But now we can use both sides of that balance to achieve a beneficial scenario.
“The poor” really aren’t the issue - it’s the wealthy who place high loads on the grid.
The poor are screwed by standing charges, not time of day tariffs.
There are some retail energy companies that went bankrupt that were sat on significant numbers of energy futures. The bankruptcy was bailed out by raising standing charges - still being paid for (not sure how much longer that will be paid for). In the subsequent administration of the bankrupt companies assets; the price rises meant that those futures had gone up quite considerably... The directors of failed companies were compensated handsomely for fucking up. No liability, no responsibility.
Talk about systems designed from the ground up to shaft consumers.
The really funny part about offpeak power is that when councils made moves towards night time lighting switchoffs, their power charges WENT UP because utilities were relying on the load to not have to spin down thermal generation plants (which don't particularly like being cycled)
Of course that didn't translate into reduced tariffs for other customers as a way of encouraging offpeak usage, because why would it?
"And financial incentives are clearly the easiest way to do this - hence E7/E10 tariffs."
Except that they don't work and never really did. Economy 7 and 10 never shifted enough demand to make that much difference, and between a third and a half of customers on those tariffs were worse off. The idea of cutting the peak (as opposed to shifting to off peak) never worked well because storage heaters have always been crap, and by four o'clock on a cold winters day they're spent and the consumer has to use peak rate to keep warm.
By the way, is Santimonious your middle name? You're coming across all self righteous, you won't accept alternative views gracefully. I'm sure there's newspaper comment forums where you'd be quite at home.
I had the misfortune to spend 2 years in a house with storage heaters... Woken up in the early hours sweating due to the heat and coming home to a stone cold house in the evening. I don't know when the heaters had been installed, this was back in the late 80s so likely they dated back to the 70s.
I had the misfortune to spend 2 years in a house with storage heaters..
A lot of us old fogeys probably grew up in houses with only storage heating (and maybe the odd coal or gas fire - we were all storage heating except for the gas fire in the lounge..)
Oh - and the back bedroom in the extension that had an old gas fire (that always smelt a tad odd when on so was never much used) that used a plug in leccie heater to stop the windows icing up in the winter.
Kids today eh?
My first place had no gas, and therefore used storage heaters.
I've recently bought a storage heater for my office - because it's a good way of heating the space, and cheaper to run than gas.
The office is a bit chilly first thing, but I open the vents a touch before I make tea and then it's fine all day.
"Except that they don't work and never really did. Economy 7 and 10 never shifted enough demand to make that much difference"
Except that they did... indeed a local test in '94 splitting E7 into different time slots for just 1500 customers across the region - that reduced the peak power demand near Aberystwyth by 10MW (from a bit over 50 to a bit over 40).
That's a substantial change in behaviour by adjusting the times which are cheap for different customers.
That source, and all the others across the country have to precisely balance the supply of electricity to the demand from all consumers. Fortunately that aggregate demand is predictable, even if your individual usage isn't (do you always put the kettle on at exactly 7, or is it occasionally a minute earlier or later?).
That puzzle was solved many many decades ago and didn’t require smart meters then & doesn’t need them now.
Example being kettles being boiled in advert brakes and end of popular tv shows or events.
As you’ve alluded to, the grid isn’t just giant power stations but also smaller infill stations, often gas that can ramp up quickly. ‘Renewables’ can’t scale quickly hence the need for demand pricing.
Lastly, when the grid pays generators for power are renewables cheaper or more expensive than gas?
Night rate has always been cheaper than day rates. Poor people were already incentivized to do the washing at night if they had a dual rate connection. But with a smart meter and a variable rate contract, they might actually get paid or at least be cheaper off to do the washing during the day (on days with lots of sun and wind).
You REALLY don't seem to understand the shift in grid scale power generation and the impact of renewables and what this means for grid stability and control.
As recent as 10 years ago, it WAS as simple as scaling power generation up and down with demand. Power companies could rely on keeping plants on stand by and needing them again later in the day or the next day. With the introduction of renewables that went out the window. There is a baseline of power being generated round the clock. Power that HAS to be used. Power that cannot be easily ramped down (Especially solar) which means that when there's lots of sun and wind, power is REALLY cheap (most conventional power plants would likely be at 0 load) at those times because the power HAS to be used. Power costs per kWh at these times can even go negative (They'd PAY YOU just to get rid of power). The only thing smart meters allow in this regard is to let consumers benefit from this. If they take a variable rate contract, they'll likely pay less for power if they use power at smart times. They'd pay less for power than the "average cost over the day" rate that they'd normally pay. They're free to still run their washing machine at peak times. There's nothing forbidding them. There is no route to stop them.
For overal grid stability and most efficient use of all our power sources, it's best if grid load is spread more evenly over the day. That has nothing to do with bad grid maintenance or corporate greed and everything to do with the country scale sized complex machine that is the (ever more interconnected) energy grid.
"For overal grid stability and most efficient use of all our power sources, it's best if grid load is spread more evenly over the day. That has nothing to do with bad grid maintenance or corporate greed and everything to do with the country scale sized complex machine that is the (ever more interconnected) energy grid."
That's so true. But the only logical and likely-to-work way of doing that is through black box automation that doesn't rely on trying stupid things like variable pricing to change meatsack behaviours, nor in encouraging unsafe behaviours like running white goods in the small hours of the morning when everybody's asleep. What's needed is automation of large, safely shift-able loads, and like them or not, EVs will be able to provide that. Mrs Miggins isn't going to save the planet by bathing in cold water or running her washing once a week at 2am on a Sunday. For Mr Smugrich who drives his Tesla, he shouldn't need to alter his behaviours either, the charging system needs to offer him a charged car when he wants to use it. All the background complexity of matching flexible and inflexible demand to variable generation can and should be automated.
A reasonable size EV battery stores about twice the total energy used daily by a high user consumer with a class 2 meter, so there's ample capacity to manage demand across a large fleet without leaving EV users with flat batteries. There is a price for flexibility of demand or generation but industry views for a long time have been that the value of flexibility will progressively and dramatically fall. That's because assets like smart charging of EV fleets will bring huge new storage volumes to the market but the incremental cost of suing that as flexibility will simply be the charging management platform.
You're assuming that all the modifications are manual - and pricing is the thing those black boxes will respond to.
My EV charging automatically follows the cheap power, and various other bits of the house get tied in so that they use power at the same time... It's still pretty crude, but when one of those things is a battery.... it means I use effectively no peak energy.
This year I've imported less than 400Wh/day at peak rate, and most of that is due to DFS or free electricity sessions. 103kWh in 269 days, of which 34kWh were on the 13 days with such incentives.
Fully dynamic tariffs are best approached with automation, and V2H/V2G technologies are going to be a significant factor... we just need the capability to be built in.
If I could set my car to be even just a 2-3kW source for some amount of time then the existing charge cable would be sufficient connection, and the car could then charge at other times in the day.
Last year it was 8.8MWh used for a family of four.
Monthly usage varied between 550 and 1000 kWh (lower in summer, higher in winter).
We have gas for the H's (Heating, Hot Water, Hob), but electric everything else (including transport).
To be fair there is some electric heating (my office being the main one), as well as two people working from home full time.
So a pretty high usage household, for various reasons.
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Last year it was 8.8MWh used for a family of four.
i assume charging the cars is a lot of that.
We are 5.6MWh, 4 bed detached, family of 3 & no electric cars but 3 H's like you. Had a couple of peaks (614KWh & 565KWh) in summer when i deployed the hot tub a couple of times for a week or so each time, i fill with hot water from the boiler but it uses its electric heater to top it's self up, else a low of 375KWh in august and high of 495KWh in jan.
i have an electric monitor logging my usage.
usage is well down on previous years but cost per unit & standing charge are far more.
Charging the car* is a substantial portion of usage (somewhere around 3MWh) - though the storage heater can pull more than 10kWh a day when the weather is decently cold, that's quite significant over the winter. Both the EV and the storage heater are all at cheap rate (currently 7p) though.
The other thing that I find really boosts winter usage is cooking more roast dinners, the air fryer has certainly helped with smaller meals, but the oven is a substantial contributor to our costs, because it pushes us to using day rate (25p) energy - or stops us selling for "mid rate" (15p) the end of the day. The additional washing/drying loads tend to be overnight, so that's not as bad as it could be - and the dehumidifiers clock up more usage as well.
I've got monitors on the main circuits, as well as various smart plugs for the larger devices - but my long term usage is pulled from half hourly meter data, and fully spreadsheeted.
Pricing was pretty high last year - but I ended up paying £663 (that includes the standing charge, but also includes participating in DFS events, and at the end of the year, when export rates improved, some ToD arbitrage and solar export). This time (early October) last year I was at £500 for 6.2MWh, this year I'm at £400 for 7.4MWh... Part of that increase is that the storage heater was added around the start of March last year, so two months of additional usage this year, partly we've just had a bit of a rubbish year, a few longer journeys in the car... stuff like that.
.
* Single car household for 16 years now. That will change at some point over the next year though, since we'll need a car that our eldest can learn in. That's likely to be a small second hand EV.
Doesn't save me money, in the manner implied by the publicity, but it does mean I can sell electricity back to the grid... which has been worth £247.97 so far this year (I also haven't used £1k of grid electricity either; or rather I prepaid that £1k as part of the investment in solar+battery - 10% tax free is a reasonable rate of return)
Bargain - 30 minutes offline from Electricity and Gas, then £250 a year profit? lovely.
but it does mean I can sell electricity back to the grid...
We have PVs that, in summer, regularly take the battery to 100% and then start dumping electricity back into the grid. Since we still have the old rotary 1977-type meter, I get to watch is spin backwards :-)
(We did look at the option of a feed-out tariff (which would have required a smart meter) but the best we could get at the time was 16p/unit. Since we paid (at the time) 32/unit, it seems that saving 32p per unit was better than being paid 16p/unit. So we still have the old rotary meter, despite the annual attempt by my provider to switch me over [1]. I wondered why they were so persistent - makes sense that the Government were driving it..)
[1] Last attempt went no-where - my response was "what's in it for me?" Their response was "you can see your electricity usage". Well, from the PV systems, I already know how much I'm drawing from the grid and I'm bright enopugh to be able to use a calculator. And if something is plugged in and turned on, then it needs to be and is (within the bounds of tech-fetish [2]) non-discetionary..
[2] 3 rackmount servers, one tower server and various other IT gubbins. I'm hoping to rationalise VM usage in order to shut one of the rackmount servers down soon (and, with some SSD/NVME trickery, allow the TrueNAS 2U server to do VMs properly..)
what's the depreciation rate of that solar installation?
The real one, not optimistic numbers presented by sellers.
My experience running the numbers is that the average UK solar installation almost pays itself off several years AFTER the solar panels require replacing
How long ago did you last do the calcs? System prices have dropped a lot in recent years. The trade off has been the reduction in the FIT although savings from not having to consume grid elec have increased due to the unit price going up.
You used to be paying £20k for a 4kw system and now its under £2/watt in some cases. My 2.25kw system cost 2.4k but was self installed and if I'd opted for one larger inverter rather than 2 small inverters (2 aspect setup) it would have been closer to 2k. After 3 years my savings so far have been (based on comparison to consumption figures from the 12 months prior to install) are about 2.2k. So my payback will actually be about 3.5 years.
Technically not depreciation... it's ROI...
My current estimate for financial breakeven is 6 years for my system (i.e. measured savings over nearly two years so far), which leaves a good 19 years of generation on a "paid off" system.
The inverter is the thing that's more likely to need replacing, and that's got a ten year warranty.
Smart meter is not developed to save you money, but to save energy firms money.
They have neglected the infrastructure which is over subscribed so they want to use smart meters to force people who are less well off to use energy outside of peak ours, like if their lives is already not miserable enough.
Like instead of doing your washing in the morning or after work, you will wait for Friday 2AM to do it.
If you simply want to track your energy usage, there are relatively cheap meters that you can clamp on your mains supply and pair it with an app so you can see all your leccy usage without need of a smart meter.
"They have neglected the infrastructure which is over subscribed so they want to use smart meters to force people who are less well off to use energy outside of peak ours, like if their lives is already not miserable enough."
Except that we use 100TWh a year less than we did a decade ago... the infrastructure isn't the issue here.
The availability of half hourly metering at the domestic level allows the idea of load shifting to be attractive to customers.
If all you want to do is track your usage then yes a clamp meter will do the job - but it won't allow you to make savings based on that information - and why would you set a timer on your washing machine for 2am unless the power was cheaper then - there are a small number of people who will do it for environmental, or even grid support, reasons - but the vast majority would do it if the power was notably cheaper, and it is noticeably cheaper overnight, so why not pass that to customers and therefore shape a flatter demand curve.
Except that we use 100TWh a year less than we did a decade ago... the infrastructure isn't the issue here.
Yes, partly because of technological advancements (e.g. use of LEDs) and partly due to decline of manufacturing and other industries - which is connected to lack of investment in infrastructure. We have some highest prices of energy in the world exactly due to complete neglect.
The availability of half hourly metering at the domestic level allows the idea of load shifting to be attractive to customers.
Nice spin. There is nothing attractive about it, basically due to lack of investment those less well off can't afford electricity, so there is that half baked "solution" to get "them" use leccy at night and organise their lives around it.
or even grid support,
This is delusional. Yes, let's support corporate overlords. If they don't buy another yacht they get sad.
You are basically making excuses and try to shift the blame of the dire state of the energy sector on the poor, like it is their fault because they won't use the saviour, smart meter and totally not the fault of greedy companies trying to extract as much profit as they can without care for anyone and anything else.
>>totally not the fault of greedy companies trying to extract as much profit as they can
Sigh. They are companies. PLCs no less. Formed to make profit for thier shareholders, not to benefit the poor!
You can't say we don't get what we asked for.
Mrs T. was elected on a vast majority and rushed headlong into privatisation. Now our power generation is largely, publicly, owned by European Governments...
Who is the "we" you speak of?
I certainly didn't ask to be gouged by energy companies to push up their profits and neglect reliably generating capacity, Don't know anyone else that asked for that either. Ok, so I don't know many people, but does anyone here know someone who asked to be screwed over by the electricity and gas business?
Yes, Thatcher's privatisation led to this. Doesn't mean every current bill payer voted her in, or was even old enough to vote then. I wasn't.
" Except that we use 100TWh a year less than we did a decade ago... the infrastructure isn't the issue here."
Really? Meanwhile the last coal power station in the UK just across the river Trent from me is being switched off this month (a 2GW monster), Nuclear replacements are way to late... we may be using less but we also have less generating capacity for mid winter when the wind stops blowing.
I can remember a day at work once where someone on these so called variable smart rates showed us the eye watering price of electricity at peak times, it was way over £1/kw. That is what the power industry want to do to us plus they don't have to send anyone around to read the meters.
So you'd run a coal power plant that we don't need any more (and another five like it) because you like the smell?
The reason it's closing is because the power is too expensive.
Yes - the price of electricity goes very high at peak times, because plants like the one you seem to be mourning are so bloody expensive to run.
That's why it's sensible to reduce the load at those peak times - it saves *everyone* money, because the price is effectively set by the most expensive power on the grid.
It's why most agile tariffs have a cap, to reduce exposure to those massive peaks.
I buy my electricity when it's cheapest, which also happens to be when it's greenest, and that means your electricity is slightly cheaper as well - because I'm not adding to the load when the grid is relying on the most expensive generators.
No doubt you were one of those sharing the "use this simple trick to stop having to buy plastic bags" concept of taking a bag with you to the supermarket - which was the exact point of the charge being levied.
No, it's because they have a completely captive customer base that wants to, or has to, use power at those peak times, so jack up the prices. Classic supply and demand capitalism. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's got bugger all to do with the cost of producing coal power, which is about the cheapest thermal generating method there is. Or would be, if we hadn't shut all the coal mines and had to rely on imports.
American coal mines have mostly shut down because their single largest customers (power stations) were closed down due to poor economics
Coal isn't cheap and the TWO largest USA environmental disasters this century have been old coal power station ash slurry pond dam breaks (with a bunch more on the EPA's emergency radar)
Personally I'd ditch the combustion plant and keep everything else
At current projections(*), molten salt nuclear power can provide sufficient heat to drive a coal station's turbines efficiently (conventional nuckear can't do that) at around 1/4 the size (including containment) of the existing combustion equipment
China's been working towards this for a while. All their newer coal plants have a nice clear space around the right size adjacent to the generation halls and they've been buying all the thorium their rare earth mines can produce (which is WHY those mines are able to continue operating and why China's cornered the world's rare earth markets)
(*) Even if double the size it's still smaller than the combustion kit and as a drop in replacement, it allows China to essentially radically drop its carbon footprint overnight without compromising its industrial capacity. There are sound reasons why they're pouring investment into MSR to the point that they're at least a decade ahead of everyone else on the path to commercial rollout
It's the "sending someone around to read the meters" which is the driving force behind smart metering in residential sites
The rest they already know thanks to monitoring at every node (including the local transformer) along the distribution route
More worryingly: We are about to switch off gas/oil based domestic heating systems. That along with other decarbonisation efforts will cause electricity requirements to vastly increase over 2005 baseline (electricity STILL only accounts for 1/3 of our carbon emissions but it only ever did account for 1/3 of them).
Annualised global TWh requirements are set to not triple, but will be somewhere between 6-8 fold thanks to conversion losses and with the best will in the world, paving every rootftop in Britain with solar PV + planting forests of wind turbines can't fill the gap (particularly when backing generation requirements are taken into account)
By my calculations, Britain will requite somewhere between 60-90GW of nuclear generation by 2040 and there are no steps being taken to replace aging out plants.
Quite frankly I wouldn't trust "Quality British Design" further than I can throw a wrench, thanks to decades of demonstrated beancounter interference with durability and safety, which puts us at the mercy of China's MSR developments (_supposedly_ there is British MSR research going on but we're 20+ years behind the Chinese at best and there quite simply aren't sufficiently qualified/experienced people in British industry anymore)
The only upside is that MSR designs are compact and can be built quickly, which means the rolling brownouts of the 2030s should only last a decade or so
"More worryingly: We are about to switch off gas/oil based domestic heating systems. "
No we're not - we're starting to phase them out - the plan is to stop selling new ones in a decade's time (at least I think that's still the timeline), and then those will last another twenty years...
If you covered all UK roofs in PV...
UK land area 240 thousand km^2.
1.4% is buildings (OS data).
A third of that is north facing enough to ignore.
10% margins on the roof.
Let's say 1% are totally unsuitable (thatched, listed etc).
Panels are typically a little way under 2m^2, and somewhere 400-500W - Assume 250W/m^2
So that's 240k km^2 * 1.4% * 66% * 90% * 99% * 250Wp/m^2 = 493GWp
That's peak power, and over the course of a year you'd expect over 400TWh from just panels on UK roofs.
The issue here is, of course, that that energy is predominantly generated in the summer - in deepest, darkest, winter I still get ~15% of my annual average, and that's when my consumption is at it's peak, an effect which will be stronger with further electrification.
My best day has been 6.66 kWh/day/kWp
My typical winter day is about 1kWh/day/kWp (and I get quite some shading in December)
So the UK rooftop potential in winter is ~400-500 GWh/day, and our current generation is about 600GWh/day.
* 60k thatched properties, 400k listed, that's nowhere near 1%...
The thing to do is not "dick about on roofs", but to build roofs out of panels, all of them...
There will still be a need for retrofitting panels to existing buildings - but there is no excuse for the hordes of houses that are being built today with gas piped in rather than using the same groundworks for a GSHP, and no PV on the roof at all (and often configurations which aren't exactly friendly to later addition).
So you agree that the electricity distribution infrastructure in this country is already capable of transmitting far more energy than we use - that's the grid infrastructure.
Half hourly metering is attractive to consumers, because it allows us to get energy at substantially cheaper than the 'predicted average over the next year' which you are paying.
My unit cost last year was 7.5p, this year so far it's 5.5p. That's substantially lower than you'll be paying if you're on a meter that's only read once a quarter.
Grid support isn't about "support corporate overlords" it's about reducing the requirement for the most polluting energy sources.
This winter I will, again, join in with the demand flexibility scheme - and I expect that the small amount of grid support I can provide, combined with efforts from others all over the country, will mean that a coal power station (or two) won't even need to be warmed up as a backup. Indeed I'll get paid to do so, because paying me, and everyone else, is still cheaper than paying for that coal power plant to warm up. That's a benefit to everyone except the corporate folks at the power plant.
The dire state of the energy sector is the fault of the previous government's refusal to allow us to build renewables. It's the fault of Putin's large scale invasion of Ukraine. It's the fault of the previous government's refusal to collect a windfall tax from the international operators who massively benefited from the spike in international gas prices.
I'm not quite sure which "greedy companies" you're referring to - but it certainly isn't domestic energy retailers in the UK...
You can add to that list of complaints 40 years of government with business interests prioritised over consumer ones.
Paying windmills to switch off because of network limitations comes out of consumer bills. Under CEGB terms; you would not be paying that aspect of the bill. Note that in 2023-24, balancing services costs exceeded £4bn; and shows no signs of slowing down. Source : the ESO MBSS reports : https://www.nationalgrideso.com/data-portal/mbss
The energy market is well designed to print money to private investors; but it is not well equipped for delivering cheap energy to consumers and industrial uses.
The rest of the economy suffers for this.
I was involved with all this when I was a civil servant (2010 I think it was - based in 55 Whitehall as there wasn't room in the main DECC building ). The savings were assumed to be based on:
- Showing you what your energy consumption was live on a little screen, so you'd think more about what you are spending and switch more things off
- Making load shifting tarriffs widely available where they were not with a basic analogue meter (I know there were some economy 7 meters out there, but not that many)
- Enabling more 'smart' stuff - for example, your washing machine could be loaded and then set to run when the leccy price was low, triggered by your supplier.
Now, I didn't write the business case, I was merely the recipient of it to try and get a programme running to implement it. I thought it sounded a bit ridiculous as well.
As for the tech, I can't quite remember why the transmission supplier wasn't doing it. I remember Italy has a similar system to France, not sure why the transmission supplier wasn't just asked to do that (powerline data transfer type stuff). I may need to dig out my notes.
- Showing you what your energy consumption was live on a little screen, so you'd think more about what you are spending and switch more things off
That's a bit braindead. Someone puts kettle on, looks at the meter and goes "oh no, I guess I'll go without tea today" - not.
- Making load shifting tarriffs
I like how this beats around the bush. It simply means "Get the poor to do things with leccy at odd hours".
Enabling more 'smart' stuff - for example, your washing machine could be loaded and then set to run when the leccy price was low, triggered by your supplier.
Nothing could go wrong with that, especially in the buildings with paper thin walls, where all dishwashers, washing machines and what not all at the same time turn themselves on at 3 am.
""Get the poor to do things with leccy at odd hours""
No - it means get everyone to shape their load. There is no reason for you to have the immersion heater on for an hour at 5pm, even if you have your shower at 6:30 every day, you put the immersion on overnight, or in the early afternoon, when demand is lower, and price is lower....
"Nothing could go wrong with that, especially in the buildings with paper thin walls, where all dishwashers, washing machines and what not all at the same time turn themselves on at 3 am."
Well the major load in my house is controlled by my energy supplier - albeit it's a load that's sat on my drive.
Appliances running overnight isn't a new thing, and it will continue to not be a new thing, even if the timer isn't a dumb timer on the device any more (though frankly washing machines etc aren't particularly useful to remote control because their peak power draw is actually very brief. The immersion, or heat pump, are great options - because when they run doesn't matter, so long as you have hot water in the tank when you need it... you don't actually care when it was heated. Similarly you don't need the heating to be on at thirty two minutes past five, you could have it run between three and four, heating the house a degree or two over the 'target' temperature, and then idle through the peak period before picking up again afterwards. Virtually no change to comfort, massive change to cost.
That sounds like you don't spend much time around actual people.
Otherwise you would know that people don't behave like models in the spreadsheet. People are irrational and usually they do easiest thing, even if it does not make financial or other sense.
No one is going to put heater overnight in case they will be taking a shower at some point the next day. More likely you'll get the opposite effect. People will be turning the heaters and then forget to take the shower and energy will be wasted.
"No one is going to put heater overnight in case they will be taking a shower at some point the next day. More likely you'll get the opposite effect. People will be turning the heaters and then forget to take the shower and energy will be wasted."
Except people do - that's what virtually all households used to do before the advent of the combi boiler. You heat at tank of water, and it stays hot for days at a time simply because it's well insulated.
You don't need to heat water as you have a shower, you heat it in advance, and then use it on demand. That flexibility means you can use cheap, green, electricity to heat the water whenever it's available. My office has a storage heater, not yet turned on this season, but when I do it will take advantage of the fact that my overnight electricity rate is cheaper than my gas cost. And the heat lost overnight is less than the inefficiency of my gas boiler.
"Otherwise you would know that people don't behave like models in the spreadsheet. People are irrational and usually they do easiest thing, even if it does not make financial or other sense."
Whilst individuals are unpredictable the collective of society is actually very predictable. There is a certain level of friction to overcome, but taking 70% off your electricity bill is quite the motivation.
The energy consumption of a shower is momentarily high but overall extremely low kWh compared to storage system losses
I grew up in housing with poor insulation and gas heaters in every room (if it had heating at all, most of the time there was just a fireplace)
offpeak water heating (economy 7/8) is only viable if the unit rate is less than 1/4 peak rates
With widespread use of electric storage heating (water or bricks), the local authority powerco used to use it to regulate load - meaning the heating was often turned on during the day and everything "floated"
Many people found that economy 7/8 rates appeared cheaper but thanks to the fixed hours of supply they actually ended up paying more and/or needed to install bigger hot water cylinders to avoid cold showers
Storage system losses are really, really small. In a well designed system they should be between 1 and 2 kWh of heat a day. Given a sensible heat source that's under half a kWh of electrical input.
Compare that with an electric shower that pulls 10kW, you get less than three minutes of shower...
BUT the critical thing is that that half a kWh of electricity was drawn at a time where demand was low, hence cheaper - both for the person showering and for everyone else when there is less load put on the most expensive generators.
"offpeak water heating (economy 7/8) is only viable if the unit rate is less than 1/4 peak rates"
Why?
It only requires that the unit rate is less expensive than the *flat* rate by enough to offset the peak rate - and that depends on your available usage patterns.
Water heating is absolutely best done by a heat pump - let's assume that with the higher temperature demand you get an appalling COP of 2 for DHW, and you need 10kWh of heat a day, and your tank loses 2kWh a day...
A tanked system therefore needs 12kWh /day...
So with a gas boiler you get up to 90% efficiency - 13.3kWh (gas)
With an immersion you get 100% efficiency - 12kWh
With a heat pump you get 200% efficiency - 6kWh
A direct demand system takes 10kWh /day...
With an electric shower you get 100% efficiency and lose nothing - 10kWh (peak)
With a combi boiler you probably get under 80% efficiency (short cycling etc) - 12.5kWh (gas)
So comparing the best with the worst, the heat pump costs 6kWh of off peak power and your electric shower costs 10kWh peak... that's not a factor of four required.
The gas boiler is the closest, and that needs gas to be priced under half the price of cheap rate electricity to compete with even a really bad case heat pump scenario. At the moment my gas unit price is only slightly under my off peak rate (5.3p vs 7p) so the heat pump and tank wins again.
If the heat pump was run on peak power, then you'd need a COP around 3.5, which is very much achievable, to be cheaper than gas.
Gas is a very different commodity, since it can be (and is) stored. That's why we don't see peak/off peak gas rates.
Isn't the current hot water and central heating fashion to have a combi boiler without an immersion or hot water storage tank anyway? I know I get interesteng comments from the gas inspector about my old but fully functional and safe 40 year old CH setup when they see the storage tank.
I'm not sure how one would heat the water off peak for use later without anywhere to store aforsaid pre-heated water.
In theory less maintenance and less pipework. Where I live the flow rate is crap so we have a tank and a booster for the shower. So when I installed solar adding a diverter was a no-brainer.
I've seen a very neat device that is basically a tank of wax and you heat it via solar or overnight and a heat exchanger inside then heats the water. It can be small as the phase change adds a lot more energy density. I forget the name but the price was stupidly high, like £3k before installation.
Combi (condensing) boilers exist for a simple reason: NOX reduction
Older (pre 2004) installations are grandfathered in until 2025 or thereabouts but after that excess NOX emissions will see them condemned on the spot
The vast majority of such boilers are 1970s era units without balanced flues that also emit prodigious amounts of CO
It used to be that 60-70% of London's NOX came from car/truck engines. Thanks to increasingly strict emissions rules (euro 3-5) 60% of NOX inside the Inner London ring road is from domestic gas boilers - whose owners have repeatedly refused offers of free replacement(**) by councils (it's cheaper than the air pollutions fines) and as a result are likely to be served with condemnation notices the day after the grandfathering expires. (They're so bad that indivual offending boilers can be identified using NOX sniffers whilst driving along the road)
(**) Think of a long-established bunch of religious nutters who will see any move like this as making them victims. Expect to see extremely LOUD claims of religious discrimination when the condemnation notices and gas supply cutoffs happen. Less than 1% of gas boilers generating 80-90% of the boiler-sourced NOX, which is mind-blowing
really helps when sources for claims are quoted,
found this from 2017
Diesel passenger cars are responsible for 11% of the capital's NOx
Gas central heating contributes 16% of London's NOx output
Diesel machinery delivers 14% and buses 16% in most congested areas
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-4628714/Heating-machinery-HGVs-emit-NOx-diesel-cars.html
would love to know where the other 43% comes from
"No one is going to put heater overnight in case they will be taking a shower at some point the next day"
Personally I hate heat-on-demand combi boilers for showers - when I've used them I've found the water temperature alternates between boiling and freezing as the small water heating "tank" in the combi fills and emptys, requiring continual adjustment of the shower controls.
I'd much rather have a shower fed from a hot water storage tank where at least the temperature is consistent.
If your shower water is doing that, there's something SEVERELY wrong with your boiler as they're supposed to regulate their output to demand, not switch hard on/off
IE: get the bloody thing serviced (unless it's a potterton or glowworm, in which case scrap it and replace it with something thast isn't a festering pile of fetid dingo kidneys)
My only experience of hot-water-on-demand with showers has been in other European countries where apartments each have a small in-bathroom water heater (whereas room heating is provided by a central in-basement boiler) that acts as described - whilst taking a shower the temperature changes frequently as the "boiler"/water heater fills and empties its small water heating container, it can't seem to keep up with the demand...
A thermostatic shower mixer would give you better consistency of temperature.
As tanks drain they get colder.
Having the combi supply hot water at 55c means the mixer will supplement the supply with cold water and you use less hot water meaning it’s tiny tank has more chance of not running out.
> Enabling more 'smart' stuff - for example, your washing machine could be loaded and then set to run when the leccy price was low, triggered by your supplier.
Do any of these exist ? And if they do which smart meter are they compatible with?
I can just see it - 2AM across the UK the power grid collapses as all the washing machines, dryers and immersion heaters switch on at the same time followed by them all switching off as the rate spikes due to the sudden increase in demand......
Yes - The most famous example is Octopus Intelligent Go.
It looks like an E7 (well, E6) tariff, with six hours of cheap off peak power... but.
A user plugs the car in when they get home and Octopus know that they want to have the car charged to 80% by 8:15 the next day for example.
Then the actual charging is controlled by Octopus - because it only needs a certain amount of charge, and that can happen any time between getting home and leaving in the morning.
Usefully when the car is charging the whole house gets cheap electricity, even if that's outside the normal six hours - so if you have any other smart devices you can have them base their usage off the car charger...
Significant load, controlled by the energy supplier, taking advantage of cheaper energy to minimise the cost.
The other parallel example is Mixergy, who don't rely on smart meters, but their tanks can turn off heating elements for a short period at the request of the grid - this allows them to act as a fairly substantial "virtual power station", not by returning energy, but by manipulating demand.
Right, because everyone should have all their electrical loads controlled by their energy supplier, rather than deciding for themselves when they need to use something.
That's not progress. That's a capitalist wet dream, and a consumer dystopian nightmare. I can't understand why any sane person would willingly put themselves in that position.
You can, of course, disconnect from that setup if you want. But I'm happy to pay 1/3rd the 'regular, daytime' cost for my car charging.
To those wittering about having to run around the house and set timers, surely you set them just once and forget them? My immersion (I live in a townhouse with no gas, so have a hot water cylinder) is on a dumb timer set for 1am thru 4am. 7p/kWh for my hot water, I last adjusted the timer... erm, a year ago? I needed to set the clock, it had drifted by about 20 minutes since I'd last checked it a few years before even that.
As for the dishwasher etc, that I just jab the "+6 hours" button after dinner. It starts at around 1-ish in the morning. Again, cheap.
I don't really understand the hate here - if you want to come home, and turn everything on at 5pm, then feel free. That power has to come from somewhere, so you'll (ultimately) end up paying. However, since my time-insensitive heavy use is not happening during peak times, I'm making things cheaper for those who have no choice but to use power then: the odds of needing to throttle up an (expensive) gas generator are reduced slightly.
Bluntly, my average power rate is now around 11p/kWh judging from the past few bills. Job done.
"Right, because everyone should have all their electrical loads controlled by their energy supplier, rather than deciding for themselves when they need to use something.
That's not progress. That's a capitalist wet dream, and a consumer dystopian nightmare. I can't understand why any sane person would willingly put themselves in that position."
That's also not what's happening, it's a straw man, nothing more nothing less.
You must be really straining the sinews in order to not understand that I don't care when the car, or hot water tank, gets charged - just that they are charged by the time I need them.
It's great, because I don't need to concentrate on when electricity is cheapest, my supplier does that for me - the car is always charged when I need it, there is always hot water, and the bill is *substantially* lower than it would otherwise have been.
My oven and my kettle will still draw power when it's in use, because those aren't loads that can be easily time shifted*.
My washing machine and dishwasher run overnight - nothing smart there, just E7 style savings.
* Of course whilst some loads can't be shifted a battery would allow those loads to be supplied from a local store which would be charged at cheap rates.
some people just like to moan. You do you, I'll do me, but to moan about smart meters that WILL GIVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO SAVE YOU MONEY is bonkers. Like you we have a smart meter it gives us a EV tariff so we charge the car at 7p/kw rather than 28p/kw WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO DO THAT? We are with OVO so take advantage of power move to MOVE our usage from peak to off peak, currently 6-9pm which in winter will change to 4-6pm. We currently use less than 4% of our usage at peak time so get £15 a month credit. It matters not a sh1t to us that we don't run a washing machine, dishwasher or tumble during peak times, I mean how difficult is it not to run a dishwasher until after peak time?
the losers are the bill payers who have to pay for the nonsense whilst an artificial billing and metering system was created greatly enriching some (Dale Vince from extricate springs to mind) & impoverishing others (us bill payers).
People should remember that when those billing companies go bust, they add their debts to our standing charges which is why it’s so high now.
The whole smart meter thing is of no use to consumers as it’s pushed bills up over the years, it’s only use is in load shedding where centrally they can cut consumers supply or more likely limit consumer supply to provide enough for lights and occasional kettle use.
This is all instead of providing additional generating capacity, especially for when people need it most which is getting earlier in the day as the day light is getting shorter etc.
No number of solar panels on fields that could grow crops will help bridge the energy gap when it’s dark outside!!!!!
Most of the energy retailers that went bust after the Russian invasion of Ukraine did not hedge their energy purchasing, opting instead to purchase the energy they needed at spot prices. When the cost of energy rose way above the price cap at which they could sell it their capital dried up and they folded. It was a case of (very) poor business practice and a regulator, Ofgem, who were well aware of the risks of the operating model, but chose to turn a blind eye.
It's fine that you have no desire to engage in your energy management, but please do not jump to the conclusion that, just because you think smart meters are of no use, it means they are of no use to all consumers.
If you think smart meters are required for load shedding you are sadly mistaken. If "they" need to load shed, "they" will do it regardless of your meter type.
Your assertion that all we need to do is "provide additional generating capacity" and that solar panels are useless when it is dark demonstrates a, dare I say, wilful lack of understanding about net zero goals, climate change considerations and the role of renewables in demand side flexibility.
It is to be hoped your tin foil hat will keep you warm this winter.
it means they are of no use to all consumers.
Yes, there are of no use. It is just a guise to put years of neglect of infrastructure on the shoulders of the poor who will not be able to do things they used to during normal hours.
People see through this scam.
> If you think smart meters are required for load shedding you are sadly mistaken. If "they" need to load shed, "they" will do it regardless of your meter type
But was that not one of the main selling points? Turn off fridges, freezers, heaters , pause washing machines for a "short" time until the grid had stabilised and then gradually add them back
No - smart meters have never been able to do that, nor were they every sold as such.
You'd need either a smart consumer unit (and dedicated circuits to various appliances) or "smart" plugs. It's something we can do, but it's never been in the purview of half hourly meters.
Load shedding is done by flipping the circuit breaker in your local distribution substation. Not by flipping individual residential properties.
If you're going to do it, why go to all the expense, reliability and complication of a smart meter to achieve this...
Smart meters exist to make suppliers money, not provide consumer or network services. Why else would there be such large financial incentives to get them installed.
"Smart meters exist to make suppliers money, not provide consumer or network services. Why else would there be such large financial incentives to get them installed."
So somehow my supplier is now making substantially more money because I have a smart meter and pay less than 25% of what i used to pay them?
That's some really screwed up accountancy you're doing.
Three months of energy costs: Aug '22: £173.46 (646kWh), Aug '23: £40.53 (545kWh), Aug '24: £28.54 (769kWh)
In a week I could do the same for September, but it was 198 -> 36 in '22-'23
So you tell me how the energy company is making more profit when their income is down by 84%.
"Load shedding is done by flipping the circuit breaker in your local distribution substation. Not by flipping individual residential properties."
It's a bonus on top of not needing to pay for meter readers. They can do rolling brownouts once smart meters are widespread - and in the pursuit of profit. some suppliers WILL
Rolling brownouts / blackouts can be achieved much more simply and effectively at the substation. There is literally no point in inserting the extra complication of using smart meters to achieve this, because flipping a handful of properties is not a material difference when we're talking about hundreds of megawatts (if not GW) range supply issues. What you need to be doing is flipping streets and towns worth of stuff.
If you check on your bill there will be a white letter in a small black box - as illustrated here https://uk.news.yahoo.com/what-letter-electricity-bill-means-173121438-173121895.html - that explains what blackout group you're in.
There is a rota of disconnection; that determines what blocks and when things would be flipped depending on the severity of the the disruption prompting the use of the rota.
There is a priority register for service if, for instance, you are dependent upon life support equipment; and as such, if you are in that situation you should be on to your suppliers to make appropriate arrangements for that.
Regarding the commenter above questioning how the smart meter makes their supplier money "even if they are paying less" - there are incentives (paid for out of consumer bills) for energy suppliers to install those meters. The incentives are such that retailers are willing to pay people to take a smart meter, taking a cut out of the incentive in order to fund deployment. The installation of smart meters has cost ALL billpayers about £420 each - a ludicrous trade off. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-4846700/Smart-meters-cost-household-420.html
Ofgem has chased this policy for about two decades now in the belief that enough users on variable tariffs to curtail demand at periods of high cost results will result lower overall costs to operate than a general free-for-all of usage. Government (dubious) estimates are of order about £1.5bn/yr. The payback period versus the billions to install therefore does not remotely stack up. Unless you're a retailer trousering that 420 quid/bill.
The £4bn/yr being burned on balancing services, a figure that can be mitigated for far better return on investment by targetted capital works to improve capacity on routes causing the need for that spend is a much, much better deal for consumers.
If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. As many have said in this thread, and elsewhere, the UK's electricity system has been carefully designed for profit; not the cheap and reliable supply of energy to consumers and industry.
There is VERY good argument for the latter to be loss-leader (or at least break-even) to power other areas of the economy that can't compete because we're too busy paying off middlemen and pension funds.
So the installation of the meter cost £420 - of which at least £100 was in materials and labour to install.
Then I saved more than that in just a handful of months....
That's a good thing.
That spend on balancing... one thing to do is to upgrade interconnects, but we also need to promote regional pricing, and variable pricing so that curtailment is never needed.
@ JohnW66
It's fine that you have no desire to engage in your energy management, but please do not jump to the conclusion that, just because you think smart meters are of no use, it means they are of no use to all consumers.
where did I say I didn't manage my energy use?
when you've already replaced every electrical item with energy efficient ones your bill keeps going up because they keep raising the unit costs and standing charges. The only thing left is time of day pricing. I don't see why we need to go that route.
If you think smart meters are required for load shedding you are sadly mistaken. If "they" need to load shed, "they" will do it regardless of your meter type.
of gem talking bout load limiting in 2012 https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2012/12/ofgem-statement-17_12_2012_0.pdf
Load limiting
In order to comply with the Smart Metering Equipment Technical Specifications, smart
metering systems will need to support load limiting functionality.
a quick google shows that smart meters used for load shedding is also a thing
https://www.google.com/search?rls=en&q=smart+meter+load+shedding
this one from eskom is pertinent https://www.eskom.co.za/distribution/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/20240129-SMART-METER-BROCHURE-rev2.pdf
Smart meters allow Eskom to temporarily
load limit a meter from 60A to 10A for
the duration of the loadshedding period as
compared to being completely cut off. It also
automatically resets back to its original state
after loadshedding.
you can even buy your own kit to do the same
https://www.ducasa-direct.co.uk/product/load-shedding-energy-monitor/
there are many parts of the world where load is shed on a regular basis, I know this is an issue in Pakistan & USA
https://loadshedding.com
I think you can agree that reducing load by reducing consumer amps or demand pricing is equivalent to shedding.
Your assertion that all we need to do is "provide additional generating capacity" and that solar panels are useless when it is dark demonstrates a, dare I say, wilful lack of understanding about net zero goals, climate change considerations and the role of renewables in demand side flexibility.
just stating obvious facts that solar panels don't work in the dark, that has no bearing on climate change, its well known when the nights are going to be longer, the summer and winter solace's are good references as to when nights get longer and shorter.
Please provide evidence to the contrary if you dispute that solar panels don't work at night.
It is to be hoped your tin foil hat will keep you warm this winter.
why is it the lefty type always resort to insult 'at the drop of a hat'
one last nugget or 2
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a796c9e40f0b642860d7fa9/smart_meters_equipment_technical_spec_version_2.pdf
Central Bank Euro.
5.4.5 Load limiting
ESME shall be capable of determining when the Active Power Import(5.6.4.4) is above,
for the Load Limit Period(5.6.3.16), the Load Limit Power Threshold(5.6.3.17) and on such
an occurrence ESME shall be capable of:
i. generating an entry to that effect in the Event Log(5.6.4.16);
ii. sending an Alert to that effect via its HAN Interface and its User Interface;
iii. counting the number of such occurrences in the Load Limit Counter(5.6.4.19);
and
iv. ignoring the Non-Disablement Calendar(5.6.3.26) and Disabling the Supply in
circumstances where the Load Limit Supply State(5.6.3.19) is configured to
require Disablement, and then:
a. Immediately Arming the Supply such that it can be Enabled as set-out
in section 5.5.2.4;
b. after the Load Limit Restoration Period(5.6.3.18) has elapsed Enabling the
Supply, and setting the Load Limit Supply State(5.6.3.19) to unchanged;
and
c. displaying any such change in the Supply State(5.6.4.32) on its User
Interface and sending an Alert indicating the change in state via its
HAN Interface.
just to recap:
I made no mention of my personal 'energy management' you've assumed I do none which is not true.
I made no mention of climate change, you've again made assumptions.
you've tried to link my post to conspiracies which is not true as evidenced by my links.
please explain what part of my post warrants your use of "tin foil hat"
if your going to go on the attack you should be courteous enough to supply evidence of your assertions, else your spreading misinformation.
"when you've already replaced every electrical item with energy efficient ones your bill keeps going up because they keep raising the unit costs and standing charges. The only thing left is time of day pricing. I don't see why we need to go that route.
"
So you don't understand anything about electricity distribution, and there is no point in reading the rest of your wall-o-text.
So you don't understand anything about electricity distribution, and there is no point in reading the rest of your wall-o-text.
that's the problem with you lot, you just don't want to listen to alternate views or even apply reasoning or logic to the crazy claims you believe in.
This seems apt
https://youtu.be/wLKOIHrnk80?t=172
The tinfoil hat brigade is strong here given the downvote on that.
The speed with which load shedding is required, once it is, means that doing it via the smart meter network rather than at the substations would not, you know, actually stop the grid crashing.
As someone who works on this kind of thing, I don't know why this was down voted, t's entirely correct. There are relays at substations that watch the frequency and selectively open circuit breakers if it goes too low within a fraction of a second. Much more quickly than a signal could be sent to a smart meter.
This happened a few years ago when some generators tripped causing a low frequency event that resulted in trains having to be reset and all sorts of bother but, in general, the lights stayed on.
Well, what I meant by 'a new kind of load shedding' is doing it in advance before frequency response is required, so that frequency response should not be required.
Also, doing it to "decarbonise the grid" by switching off customers who haven't paid the protection money"green levy", and thus avoid calling on gas plants when the wind stops blowing. Switching off a few old pensioners sat in front of their electric fires may be cheaper / longer duration than batteries..
By refusing a Smart Meter, I am opting out of all that malarkey and hopefully delaying its implementation.
As someone else employed in the sector; I can verify this. Smart meters don't do jack for frequency control and response.... EXCEPT if their abilities to remotely switch off are (mis)used to do so.
Officially, the remote turn off function is only used for non-payers. But in a real emergency; war or otherwise you can bet bottom dollar that they would be used differently.
As noted below; I don't want a smart meter, and you don't want one either.
....the cost of installing them outweighs the supposed savings costs.
"It will help manage power going forward"
Easy fix. Make solar panels compulsory on all new builds.
Don't worry about the lifespan of the panels, they'll last longer than the utter shit housing thrown up these days.
My panels will have paid for themselves in 5 years, including the inverter and battery. Hardware prices have gone post-Ukraine invasion, but it's still generally a favourable calculation. Even without the ludicrous FIT terms that early adopters picked up.
If I have to replace the inverter at say, year 10, and the panels at year 20; I'm still well up overall. If you have the capital available to install, and nothing better to do with it, then it is totally no-brained decision. I wouldn't recommend borrowing to get set up because of interest rate risk. Though the NPV calculation is not necessarily negative even then. Bunging a bit more on a long term fixed mortgage to get set up is certainly not out of the question.
Even a very small system, 500W will make a big dent a lot of the time because of offsetting your base load, fridge, freezer, router, standby lights on gadgets etc. I don't think if I'd vouch for the electrical safety side of the world but there are small units that can be plugged into a mains plug to do this...
The obvious grumble is no landlord is going to install panels "for their tenant's benefit" and a lot of the population have no option but to rent. There's an action required if there ever was one.
I've only got 2.25kw of panels due to suitable roof space and it has made a good dent in my bills. Payback is maybe 4 years. Next job is a bigger hot water tank to get more use of the diverter. The old tank is 16 years old so coming to the end of its design life anyway.
3.6kW of panels + 3.6kWh of batteries, the latter fitted on two relatively narrow depth 19" racks. Very average 1930s 2 bed semi with an extension here, and that was the upper limit of what could be installed.
I know for a fact we are quite high users (what with a house filled with computers...) and very much see a return on installation in the form of reduced bills, excess available into the evenings, and on the better days, export back to grid once the batteries are full.
I don't know who the downvoter was but NPV calcs can be done by anyone with half a brain to work out if it makes sense for them. YMMV, but the point generally stands that even a modest system is a good thing for your bills overall.
It doesn't get you off the standing charge nonsense, but anything making inroads to paying coal/gas prices for all other forms of electricity landing in your property is a good thing. Collectively, the less we use from the grid; the less dependency there is coal/gas for everyone.
I'd still tear Ofgem a new hole (or seven) if I had my way. Totally unfit to serve consumer purposes, which are at the top of their stated objectives.
The standing charge increase is just a way to keep charging a lot of money while giving the impression that the actual cost of energy is going down.
My OH is from the US and where she used to live the water company was always telling people to reduce consumption while also whinging about not making money as people were using less. A bit like pushing everyone to get low/zero emissions cars by having a zero rate VED and then moaning about the loss of revenue from VED and fuel duty.
I would like more panels and a battery system but the remaining roof needs work first.
pushing everyone to get low/zero emissions cars by having a zero rate VED
One of our cars is on zero-rate VED (in our case it's the 'historic vehicle' exemption that we grabbed in the brief months while the Government was offering it. Something that stays with the vehicle, even if we sell it).
I would like more panels and a battery system but the remaining roof needs work first
One of our future plans is an extension - which *will* have more panels - built into the roof, not added on afterwards.
"where she used to live the water company was always telling people to reduce consumption while also whinging about not making money as people were using less"
A bit like the road nearby where the council fitted average speed cameras over a several miles long stretch and then a couple of years later complained they were losing money as not enough people were speeding so penalty income was below running costs (as per their contract, running/maintenance costs were fixed for 10 years I think) lol
3.6kW of panels + 3.6kWh of batteries
3KW of panels and 3KW battery.
Likewise fairly heavy users (although we no longer have a 300L tropical fish ttank - which has reduced the usage somewhat). 6U-worth of rackmount servers and one Dell tower server is not a cheap option.. (and the aircon that I had fitted to the room when I was EKS and my company could pay for it.. - something we only use if it's a really hot day and the servers start sounding like a 747 warming up..)
If you have the capital available to install, and nothing better to do with it, then it is totally no-brained decision
Our council participated in one of the various solar schemes which meant that we got (approximately - according to my research) 20% off the bill. 9 panels in total. Since November 2022, it's generated 3442 KW/h of power.
We also have an air source heat pump fitted - our boiler was 1997 vintage and in dire need of replacement [1] (ditto the radiators - all 1997 single-panel jobs, most without fins). So we took advantage of the Government £7K grant and had the ASHP installed and new radiators fitted (for about the same cost as a new gas boiler and radiator upgrade).
Irony is that the time when the PVs are generating the most power is when the ASHP is using the least cos the central heating isn't needed.
[1] Was still running but every time it got serviced the engineer would marvel that it was still running and tell us that, if anything on it died, he wouldn't be about to fix it because the spare parts hadn't been made for 15 years..
Solar yield on since Oct 2022 for us is up to 5977kWh, that is averaging at about 8kWh/day - though obviously summer/winter skew is significant. 2234 of that went into charging the battery, and 1333 to export only once the batteries are full. There is considerable argument to say that rather than exporting, that excess once the battery it full might be better burned on farming crypto (at least, financially speaking).
South facing so every possible advantage to getting the most out of the installation. Well worth it from a billing perspective, axing that much of your demand.
2PM today on a not particularly great early autumn day; battery is full even though we're working from home.
I'm in two minds, yes it looks neater but now the roof is reliant on the panels and the joints to be water tight. And if the panels need replacing they have to be replaced with an identical size panel OR require some major work. If you have rails above the roof it is a simple undo bolts, remove panel, fit new, do up bolts.
Is this how it works
Tender
======
Company A (realistic). It will cost £200m and take 4 years
Capta: It will cost £70m and be done in 3 years
Gvt: Well done Capita
3 years later
==========
Capita: We are not near completion
Gvt: Here is £100m and a few more years
decade later
==========
Capita: Still not done, and now some older devices can't work
Gvt: Here is another $130m
When will they learn to use realistic companies, and how can he Capita bod say he is proud. It is a abject failure
The sad thing is Crapita are well down that long list. Those closer to the front include (in no particular order):
Lettuce Liz
Boris the Lying Shagger
The water companies
The train companies
Deloittes (test-n-trace R us)
Dildo Harding
Baroness Mone
BAe
The City of London
Flayling failing Grayling
G4S
The electricity/gas/nuclear companies
Farage our poundland Fuhrer wannabe
KPMG, PWC, Accenture, etc
Gideon Osborn and call me Dave
google/Apple/Amazon/Facebook
Microsoft/Oracle/IBM
Tony Bliar
Fushitsu/Post Office/Royal Mail
The HS2 consortium
Gordon Brown
Serco
BT
RBS, HBOS, Northern Wreck, etc
Ofcom/Ofwat/Ofgem/Orr
Billionaire non-doms
I had "Smart" meters installed years ago. They have never worked w.r.t. sending the data so I get a nag email from my provider every month to give them a reading. These days I mostly ignore those emails in the hopes that it will all get so wildly out of step that they might get their fingers out of their collective arses and come and have a look at and maybe fix/replace the non-working meters. Yes, it means that they have several hundreds of pounds of MY MONEY in their bank account earning them interest.
I live in the middle of a large red-brick housing estate ("subdivision" for los Americanos) and none of my neighbours have problems with their "Smart" meters, so it's either their crappy meters, or else the specific location doesn't work, so may need an external antenna? Either way I'm not giving a reading until someone does something about the current situation.
"I had "Smart" meters installed years ago"
I see where you went wrong. My house still has the meter it had fitted when built 32 years ago, and it wasn't even new then. From the looks of it I'm guessing it's a late 1970s model. But just like yours, it measures the electricity and doesn't send readings to the supplier without manual intervention.
Mine ain't worked properly for 4 years now! We call up every 3 months, complain, someone supposed to come out, no one ever does, squeeze under stairs one more time to read meter and manually enter numbers into website.
What a complete waste of time and money putting a smart meter in, might has well left the old one there as nothing has changed, still have to send numbers to supplier manually in 2024!
The thing is - smart metering is not hard. It's been done all over the world and there are multiple technologies available depending on the geography, population density etc.
The logical approach would have been to roll out a common vendor with common technology [the transmission approach either Mesh, 3g etc would be the variable]. You could have hammered the price down this way
No - lets implement different technologies and different vendors across the country creating a mess.
I've refused plenty of times against them installing one.
I do worry though when my old spinning disc meter croaks it though. I recall someone saying that they still have to offer an old style meter in the event that you can't receive a phone signal. I don't know if that's true or not, I'd like someone to confirm it. But yeah, that is my only worry about it all. Being forced to do it because the current equipment has died.
Its not true.
You can get* a meter which is configured to only take remote readings once a month - default is once a day.
If you're in an area which has ZERO coverage then you can get* a meter which is preconfigured for dual-rate, but only after all the various antenna/comms unit options have been tried.
That's your lot. Nobody is fitting Ferraris meters now.
*in order to get either meter you'll probably have to take a complaint almost all the way to the ombudsman.
Anyone who believes a smart meter is for anyone's benefit than that of some commercial entity needs a reality check.
Not one of the "benefits" is of any interest to me, I can read my meter and do sums, but then yes, ok, I am unfairly benefiting from An Education. I'm also definitely not opening myself up to surge pricing.
And Martin Lewis went public the other day with what we all know anecdotally, that a huge proportion of them don't work or are broken.
Yes, there are some lucky folk who get lower charges when the supplier tells you to use more juice to help balance the system, but I also know people who have been promised these savings and never seen any.
/ludditemode
Had a technician [NOT an engineer] call to look at our property.
Our gas meter is below ground level and our electric meter is on the other side of the house in an area with no phone signal.
So no chance of them being any smarter than the meters already installed. Evidently our meters are also too far apart as they need to communicate with each other.
The joys of living in a very solid house dating from the 1850s.
Said technician departed to "put a note on our file" the the property is not suitable for a smart meter. ROFL.
It would be easier at this stage to just add 1p to income tax and give it directly to Capita and the rest, rather than creating these byzantine schemes for extracting the cash. What really grinds my gears is that someone (the govt?) is *still* running TV ads that suggest that smart meters somehow magically lead to lower bills. The current iteration features Einstein. A cheaper solution would be a leaflet that explains that central heating uses lots of gas, so if you turn it down, you save money. You could even add pictures of appliances that uses lots of electricity, like a washing machine.
There are some good ideas buried in here somewhere, such as dynamic pricing to even out demand. Also interesting proposals to use electric cars as an ad hoc storage network (vehicle-to-grid). Not sure these ideas can be realised with this dog's dinner of an implementation.
Not sure these ideas can be realised with this dog's dinner of an implementation
I'll have you know that our digs' dinners are in no way substandard! OK - it's not steak, lobster and pate but it's good food, plentifully supplied..
(I suspect "dogs dinner" comes from dogs being fed meat scraps from the "shambles" - which is old word for the meat market. The two concepts seem fairly interlinked)
Assuming existing meters are still perfectly suited at measuring power, not exactly a novel application of technology, I wonder why retrofitting 4G is not possible. Possibly faster and, let me dare to write it, cheaper.
Also why not to considering the switch to powerline networking. Is not as ENEL and other utilities have not proven it viable across the world already.
That's what they do - change the comms module. Meter stays the same.
Electricity (Smart) Meter and Gas (Smart) Meter are effectively proxied through the comms module, which either communicates with DCC via 3G (O2) or radio (Arquiva). 3G contract runs until 2033 then the comms modules will need replacing.
Delay is because is no pressing matter then?
I briefly checked online and first result has pictures. Few cables, fixation on brackets, activation and registration perhaps are the steps required. Let’s assume half an hour each and eight in a day allowing for logistics. It would require 26 thousand installers to complete 51 million meters (if beginning from scratch) in one year. Or a little over 3 thousand for eight years at a rate of over six million meters a year. Seems doable. At 40 thousand pounds each we have 125 million for one year only. 135 seem indicating only few million meters are left untouched. Bill of materials should be few pounds each.
For those of us old enough to remember the U.K. switching to “Natural Gas” (from coal gas), the smart meter roll out should have been handled in the same way. Whole streets done on the same day. No opting in or out. Not quite the same safety imperative as having the wrong burners in your boiler/oven/fire I grant you, but it would be done long since by now.
Over here in Ireland smart meters are just getting installed as each meter is due for replacement.
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