The end is in sight for Windows 10, but Microsoft keeps pushing out fixes

Microsoft continues to apply the electrodes to Windows 10 with an Insider build to deal with single sign-on problems arising from changes made for the European Digital Markets Act and Edge freezing when using Internet Explorer mode. In December 2023, Microsoft said that one of the ways it'd comply with the Digital Markets Act …

[Irongut]

> a set of hardware requirements that necessitate purchasing new hardware

My 5+ year old self-built PC is capable of running Windows 11, or so the upgrade notification keeps telling me.

How long is your refresh cycle if you think that necessitates purchasing new hardware?

Can you consider yourself a tech publication if all your computers are ancient Thinkpads not supported by modern OSs?

[Anonymous Coward]

It’s almost like there’s a completely arbitrary requirement to have a TPM installed…

[Anonymous Coward]

Not just any TPM, TPM 2.0.

[Charlie Clark]

Plenty of companies are sticking with their Windows 10 golden images because it's easier, and these are the customers Microsoft cares about.

Home users will get adware and like it.

[WolfFan]

no, we won't

We will stay with Win10 or move to Ubuntu/other Linux or buy Macs.

[Terje]

5+ year old self-built PC. Note the self built, I assume that when you built that pc 5 years ago you didn't go down the route of the most bare bones motherboard you could find to save a few <insert currency of choice> that many of the larger manufacturers tend to do, if they can avoid adding a component to the system they save maybe not that much on each system but if you deliver a million of them it quickly adds up. And only a very small percentage of all computers are custom built ones, most have stamps like hp, dell or lenovo on them and if they could save money on a budget model they definitely did, sure they probably had models with everything needed, but they also had those without, and guess which ones were cheaper?

[Terry 6]

I'm sure that's correct. My 3yo Chillblast PC keps telling me I can have the cursed Win 11.

My just over 2 year old Lenovo laptop/convertible doesn't.

[FIA]

5 years is about correct.

When Win 10 goes out of support the newest CPU that lacks the needed TPM support will be 6 years old.

(Now, you might not have the BIOS options to enable it... but that's another issue. ;) )

To put it another way, I've just bought myself a new PC for WFH, I got it from the local charity place, it's a generic HP desktop thing.

Runs Windows 11 just fine. (I think all the machines they had for sale were WIn 11 compatible).

[Anonymous Coward]

Cheap PCs are going to come with "not newest" CPUs for years, since they are .... cheaper.

[WolfFan]

My somewhat more aged desktop at home can't go to Win11 even if I wanted it to (I don't) as it has TPM 1.2, and I have no idea if it can be updated, nor do I want it to. The laptop this is being typed on shipped with Win11. I put Win10 on it (it wasn't easy), and when Win10 goes out of support, I will move to Ubuntu, assuming that I don't just junk the laptop and get a MacBook.

The desktop machines at the office are mostly capable of running Win11. They all run either Win10 or Ubuntu or are Macs. Again, when Win10 goes out of support, we will either push forward with Win10 and no support, go to Ubuntu, or replace the machines with Macs.

We will not be implementing Win11. We ran a few tests, including this laptop. We did NOT like what we saw, and all Win11 machines are now either Win10 or Ubuntu, depending on how annoying it was to move to Win10. Microsoft really doesn't want you to move to Win10 from Win11; they really don't.

Things that we didn't like included the requirement for a Microsoft Account; even Win11 Pro tried to ease you towards using a Microsoft account, which was NOT going to happen on office machines, and one reason for not having Win11 at home, ever, is the hoops you have to jump through to not have a MA in Win11 Home. See, for example, https://www.howtogeek.com/836157/how-to-use-windows-11-with-a-local-account/ Fuck you, Microsoft; it's my bloody computer, and I do NOT want a Microsoft Account. Period. There were some task bar and Windows menu annoyances as well, and a few other bits of MS idiocy. The main reasons for rejecting Win11 were the hardware requirements, particularly TPM 2, as most machines that couldn't install Win11 didn't have TPM 2, and the insistence on having the damn Microsoft Account.

[Anonymous Coward]

For what it's worth, if you install Windows 11 with a Micrsoft account, you can simply create a local account and log in with that forever more.

Unfortunately, Windows 11 turns on Bitlocker/Device Encryption by default now, and stores the keys in the MS account used to install Windows ...

[Terry 6]

Probably perverse

The thing I object to more than using a Muckrosoft account is being forced to use a Microsoft account.

[X5-332960073452]

Shift F10 (a first screen), command prompt, oobe/bypassnro , I don't have network. local account created, decrypt HD

[Sapient Fridge]

> if you install Windows 11 with a Micrsoft account, you can simply create a local account and log in with that forever more.

I have a Win11 laptop like that. My account has a Microsoft account but the rest of the family have local logins. For some reason the OS periodically decides to activate Onedrive and syncs *my* desktop icons to the children's desktops. Most of the icons don't work as they point to my home folders (and fortunately are all "family friendly") but it's still an appalling leak of private information between accounts.

I think what's going on is that updates turn on Onedrive by default, which then looks to see which MA accounts exist on the machine. It only finds one and decides that all local accounts must sync to that. This has happened at least 3 times now even though I've theorectically disabled Onedrive. It keeps coming back to life like some kind of brainsucking zombie.

And don't get me started on my son's MS Minecraft installation on the Win10 desktop, which stops working roughly every 3 weeks when it forgets how to authenticate. Grr...

[Phil Koenig]

There are also some 3rd-party patch/update services that will keep developing updates for Win10 after MS drops official support.

For business use I'd suggest either taking advantage of that or the paid Microsoft update service for out of support OS versions. (Assuming they still offer it with Win10 like they did with Win7)

You don't want unpatched security vulns on machines that are connected to the internet, especially if they are being used by not particularly expert users.

[Mike 125]

> 5+ year old self-built PC

Your PC built itself? Please tell us more.

[MyffyW]

Maybe it's an AI PC that went back in time to find Sarah Connor?

[Pascal Monett]

Sorry ?

"Can you consider yourself a tech publication"

Why are you blaming El Reg for this nonsense ?

[Miko]

Did all old hardware receive fixes to every one of the discovered TPM vulnerabilities?

[martinusher]

> if all your computers are ancient Thinkpads not supported by modern OSs?

1) Thinkpads are well made laptops. They used to be the IBM brand but IBM sold it to Lenovo, their contract manufacturer. They seem practically indestructible.

2) Contrary to what Microsoft and others might tell you software doesn't wear out. Also, there's nothing 'modern' about current versions of programs such as Windows; as OS's go they're no more advanced than they were decades ago. What changes all the time are APIs and secondary programs like web browsers and this is driven by marketing requirements rather than engineering.

Incidentally, I'm typing this at home using an old Lenovo Ideacenter all-in-one. I run Mint on it because its getting a bit long in the tooth for Windows 10. However, its worth noting that my wife has an identical machine that's still running its Windows 7 as slickly as it did the day it was purchased. (Yes, its got appropriate anti-virus etc. on it, stop with the "shock / horror" stuff. Its all marketing BS.)

[PRR]

> ....there's nothing 'modern' about current versions of programs such as Windows

I, reluctantly, got a new Win11 machine on a Friday night. By Monday Noon I had found a WinNT-era settings panel.

https://i.postimg.cc/ZJjYwN5N/XPsettings-Image1.gif

The only thing 'modern' about Windows post-3.1 is refusal to run perfectly good 16 bit programs. Like that was a technical problem.

> ...my wife has an identical machine that's still running its Windows 7 as slickly as it did the day it was purchased.

There are two slick everyday web-surfers here, both Win7. And an off-line writing station with WinXP and Office/Word-2003. This older machine is wearing-out its second hard-disk drive, I should pick a nice SSD for reserve.

[tiggity]

@Irongut

"How long is your refresh cycle if you think that necessitates purchasing new hardware?"

For home use (as opposed to work kit, refresh cycle & OS of that employer determined), I try and use hardware until it dies or is no longer fit for purpose* as I do not see the point in junking kit that can still be used. If you do not do activities on a PC that tend to need latest & greatest kit (such as PC gaming) then an old PC is fine for most mundane home computing tasks

* Win 10 PC not capable of installing win 11 does not stop machine being fit for purpose IMHO as people can install run non MS OSes easily enough (or choose to still use win 10 when out of support if they feel like it)

[Blackjack]

[It's almost as if Windows 10 and 11 were the same thing, just with the latter having a curvier user interface and a set of hardware requirements that necessitate purchasing new hardware.]

No wonder many people refuse to upgrade to Windows 11.

[Terry 6]

And also, more in Microsoft's control and less in the public's. Like in ways to organise the Start Menu so that it shows the programms organised to user preference, rather than an alphabetical list of (sometimes unhelpful) programmes and folders, many of which are stuffed with marketing "MYProg one the Web" crap etc. And of course MS's own advertisng shit.

[Pascal Monett]

"It's almost as if Windows 10 and 11 were the same thing"

Gosh, it's almost as if Redmond never actually rewrote the Windows Core since XP and just kept piling on the cruft and arbitrarily deciding, via UI "upgrades", which was the next version.

This nonsense with hardware requirements is just the latest in the glaring pieces of proof that Borkzilla is phoning it in rather than actually working on its product.

Of course it wants everyone on Win 11 : that's where The Cloud^TM is, which means more monthly revenue because nickel and diming functionalty instead of providing it out-of-the-box.

[MyffyW]

Re: "It's almost as if Windows 10 and 11 were the same thing"

Almost Pascal ... it's where the creepy, monetisable AI unnecessaries are too

[Anonymous Coward]

"Edge freezing when using Internet Explorer mode" - is that actually a bug, or is it expected behaviour?

[JoeCool]

"It's almost as if Windows 10 and 11 were the same thing"

Oh come on, what would be the purpose of that ?

The only corps that would benefit are M$, by forcing an update cycle on it's entire installed base,

The PC oems, by getting handed a forced update cycle,

and M$ again, by having a no-cost path to maintaining "special extended support contracts" for it's largest customers that aren't ready to go Win11.

so so cynical.

[David Hicklin]

Re: "It's almost as if Windows 10 and 11 were the same thing"

> The only corps that would benefit are M$, by forcing an update cycle on it's entire installed base,

> The PC oems, by getting handed a forced update cycle,

Its called the WINTEL alliance for a reason................

[mark l 2]

We all know that Windows Vista, 7, 8, 10 and 11 are all pretty much the same under the hood and a new versions is announced just when Microsoft and the PC manufactures see that the number of units sold starts to fall.

Windows 11 would probably have been announcer sooner if it hadn't been for Covid and WFH which means there was an unexpected uptick on PC sales in 2020 that no one saw coming. But that trend didnt last too long before PC sales started to fall again.

[billdehaan]

I joined the Dark Side, they don't have cookies. Or drama.

Late last year, one of my three Windows 10 PCs demanded I run a Windows Update, which refused to run. A week of futzing about later, the MS solution was "wipe your PC and reinstall Windows from scratch".

Looking at my re-install options for it, I discovered that (a) Windows 10 would expire in October 2025, about 18 months away (at the time), and (b) the PC was not Windows 11 compatible.

Since I had to reinstall an OS anyway, and there was little point in installing Windows only to have to do it again in a year and a half anyway, I fooled around with a half dozen Linux distros, picked Mint, and the machine has been boringly productive ever since. There was a learning curve, and it took about six months to properly migrate everything over and get up to speed, but the end result was a stabler and faster PC that's supported until at least 2029. The other two PCs followed suit and were migrated over as well.

What's been most notable about running Linux for these past few months is how little drama there is with it. I still use Windows at work, and there is constant drama of bad updates being pushed out, anti-virus software messing things up, cloud outages, the security nightmare that is Recall, the dependency on having an Outlook account, privacy settings constantly being reset to the least private values possible, and on an on.

Windows itself is fine. But the most common thing I hear from users is "just leave it alone and stop changing things all the time". In comparison, my Mint machines are boring in comparison, honestly. All of them offer updates, which I as the user can approve, deny, or delay, and none of them require me reconfiguring things after an update.

What's amusing is that it actually takes a while to get used to having a stable system, when you've become so used to the OS vendor constantly changing it on you all the time.

[Tim Roberts 1]

no advantage in win 11 over 10 for me

As a basic home user, I see no advantage in win 11 over win 10.

I have 10 on my non upgradable home PC, and 11 on the laptop that I use when I'm out of the house.

Win 11 offers me nothing that I can't already do on 10.

[jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid]

Re: no advantage in win 11 over 10 for me

As a basic home user, win 10 offers me nothing that I couldn't do on win 7, possibly even XP. Browse the web, store and print a few photos from camera, shove files about a private network, make the odd spreadsheet for domestic accounting, err that's pretty much it.

[IGotOut]

Meh...

My old second hand HP laptop is just fine on Win 10. I swapped out the single spinning rust for twin SSD's, added some more second hand RAM and that's it. Boots into Win10 in about 5 seconds, does what I need to do pretty quickly and happily, even when running it's own screen plus two external monitors.

I have no intention to upgrade because a marketing droid says I should.