back to article Australia’s government spent the week boxing Big Tech

Australia's government has spent the week reining in Big Tech. The fun started on Monday when prime minister Anthony Albanese announced his intention to introduce a minimum age for social media, with a preference for the services to be off limits until kids turn 16. "I want kids to have a childhood," the PM urged. "I want …

  1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    "off limits until kids turn 16"

    I'm absolutely OK with that idea.

    I have just one question : how is a kid supposed to prove that he/she is 16+ ?

    As far as I know, no country delivers ID cards to anyone that is not a legal adult in that country, and that generally means 18.

    So ?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

      Easy to fix. Old enough to walk, old enough to carry ID. Anyone** more than 3 should easily understand a policeman demanding "ID - schnell".

      Anyway a good caning helped me learn back in the day. Tasing is a more modern and high tech version that doesn't leave unsightly stripes.

      **QR codes on deaf kids.

    2. Felonmarmer

      Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

      One thing that keeps coming up is if betting sites can do it, why can't social media sites. No one seems to grasp the concept that to bet online you are going to need a credit or debit card, because the sites make their money directly from you, and that becomes a default proof of ID.

      But social media sites make their money from advertisers and your viewing time. So make users give their card details to them? Their viewing numbers would tumble, not just from under age users, but because who would trust them to keep the details safe? Same goes double for online smut peddlers.

      It's almost like all these online protection measures are actually designed to protect established, political-donating, venders of all the things the politicians all claim we need protecting from when it's provided by newly arrived providers.

      See also the crackdown on small vape providers until big tobacco has had time to transfer it's business model over from their old nicotine delivery systems.

      1. Cav Bronze badge

        Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

        You started off well, with your first paragraph, but then veered into conspiracy idiocy.

        There are already controls on long established media, from TV to newsprint.

        These social media companies are globe spanning, free for alls that use their power to track users, siphon up as much of their data as possible, steal intellectual property and distort society. They need reigning in.

        And the comment about vaping is ludicrous. Government are cracking down on both vapes and tobacco, in the interests of health, at least in the UK. Further restrictions on smoking are being proposed.

        1. CloudlessSkies

          Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

          Re Vaping in Oz

          Yep, the government is restricting sales of vapes to by prescription only - at a chemist. Government has raised the price of cigarettes so high that most smokers buy black market tobacco. Vapes are becoming so hard to get that people are reverting to black market cigarettes.

          The comment was about the current situation in Oz, so it was not ludicrous.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

            "Vapes are becoming so hard to get that people are reverting to black market cigarettes."

            You could grown your own tobacco, but vape juice is easy to make on your own and parts to build a juice box can be had off of eBay via suppliers in China. The biggest problem with jacking taxes way up on things people want is it opens the door to organized crime. The risk is minimal compared to the reward and do people get sentenced to years in prison for smuggling ciggies? My friends in California tell me it's no problem to get flavored cigs from select corner shops if they know you. They get them from people spending a weekend in Las Vegas that buy tax free from the Indian store and there's no ban in Nevada. Just load the boot with a few cases and one can pay for their trip (but not likely their gambling loses).

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

      As far as I know, no country delivers ID cards to anyone that is not a legal adult in that country, and that generally means 18.

      Spain requires people to have ID cards from the age of criminal responsibility onwards, which is 14.

      1. MiguelC Silver badge

        Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

        In Portugal they're issued at birth (well, birth registration, but that's usually done at the hospital)

    4. lglethal Silver badge
      Go

      Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

      In Australia you can get your learners drivers licence at 16, so that would work. And I have a vague recollection (it's been a while since I moved away from Aus), that there was a 16+ ID available from the police, same as an 18+ ID for those who dont have a drivers licence.

      To clarify that statement in Aus, a drivers licence is the main type of ID you need for access to "Adult" things (Pubs, clubs, etc.), so for those that dont drive there is an 18+ ID you can get, so you can attend such places...

      1. Like a badger

        Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

        "To clarify that statement in Aus, a drivers licence is the main type of ID you need for access to "Adult" things (Pubs, clubs, etc.), so for those that dont drive there is an 18+ ID you can get, so you can attend such places..."

        Why would anybody want to go to an Aussie pub?

        For those who haven't visited the otherwise wonderful country, Australian pubs are uniquely grim. UK readers should imagine a down at heel student union bar in the days before student loans - big open areas with high headroom, usually in what is no more than a sparse and tastelessly decorated shed, cheap carpets that are sticky with spilt semi-congealed beer, any vestige of homeliness, comfort, or cosiness absent by design. The polar opposite to a decent UK pub or a characterful European bar.

    5. Blazde Silver badge

      Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

      There's always passports.. I think it's pretty standard now that anyone of any age can get them in most countries? There was a crackdown on the whole 'random children travelling on adult's passports without photo verification' thing some years back.

      1. lglethal Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

        Australians who are not planning on heading overseas wont go out of their way to get a passport - reason: it will set you back somewhere between A$300-500.

        I dont know anyone that dedicated to Antisocial media to pay that fee... ;)

        1. elbisivni

          Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

          AU$398 to be precise, for a ten year one. I just paid for one for my newly adult daughter. It's surprising that it's more expensive than renewing my Dutch one at the consulate and getting my Australian permanent residency visa transferred into it, (not including the forced trip to Sydney to get it done).

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

        "There was a crackdown on the whole 'random children travelling on adult's passports without photo verification' thing some years back."

        Photo verification of a child that doesn't even crawl yet is useless. The US requires they have a Social Security Number for their parents to take the tax deduction from day two (you'd think a new mother would be rather spent, but the government doesn't see it that way. The last Supreme Court justice couldn't describe what a woman is).

    6. Irongut Silver badge

      Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

      I recieved an NI card at 16. Is that not still a thing?

    7. spold Silver badge

      Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

      It opens up a whole world of new problems to the situation that have been kicking around for at least 20 years.

      Presenting ID cards etc. is obviously a horrible idea, from the perspectives of: security of transmission, ability to bind an ID to an actual person on the end of the piece of wet string, sharing sensitive info with a bunch of numpties who will keep it on file and disclose it since the numpties can't spell security (who only really needed to record the fact that ID was shown not to keep it).

      The usual starting point is that "I'm going to trust Fred because Jane trusts Fred and I trust Jane". Complicate that by applying the level of trust in that relationship, and match that to the sensitivity of the transaction and the required level of trust for that. On top of that add identity binding, how closely is the trust bound to the credentials provided. If I log into my Canadian Tax account then it will invite me to log-in to a selection of other parties who I may deal with - such as my bank - they strongly trust me so logging in pivots that trust to me accessing my taxes. Age assertions can work the same way but it is a lot of (expensive) faff. This level of diligence is unlikely.

      So, keep in mind that a minimum (think small, no very small) level of demonstrable effort will go into any age requirement as it does today, and all this will achieve virtually nothing in preventing a well motivated spotty teen finding ways to access their porny peccadillo sites.

    8. Version 1.0 Silver badge
      Childcatcher

      Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

      Kids can work round age verification situations ...

      I had my first beer when I was about two or three years old, the family went to a pub and my uncle walked off to take a piss so I reached out of my push chair, grabbed his beer and drank it.

      Now as an old guy I always support kids but learning to drink at that age has resulted in me never having any alcohol problems ever since, when kids learn to work around adults then they are getting better educated than the teachers think.

    9. Tron Silver badge

      Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

      It's an ID grab. You have to prove you are over 16, identifying yourself. No more of that awkward #MeToo stuff. Not that any Aussie politicians or clergy would ever do anything underhandy.

      They could simply demand that parents do their job and fine them when their kids are discovered online doing things they are now banned from, but that will cost them votes and they don't get to spy on everyone.

      They could just ban kids from accessing the net/using smartphones. Just let them use terminals at school with only white-listed sites accessible. Some benefits there: With less migrant labour, climate change, and war on the horizon, our governments need future generations to be thicker and more gullible. Losing net access would help.

      If Musk doesn't like state censorship, he should have started up a distributed social media service. All posts circulate user to user. Each user would choose the sort of stuff that they didn't want to see. Wouldn't necessarily be anonymous and you could still do advertising on it (with users' consent). Cheaper than Twitter too.

      As Western governments flip to the Chinese way of doing things, tech will have to decide whether to cave in, offer the back doors and pay the protection money, or pull out. The EU $8bn bait and switch cash grab may have been enough for Apple to call it a day, but I guess they make enough to pay the disorganised crime gang in Brussels.

    10. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

      Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

      Credit card or drivers license.

      Jesus christ, why is the world full of idiots.

    11. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: "off limits until kids turn 16"

      "As far as I know, no country delivers ID cards to anyone that is not a legal adult in that country, and that generally means 18."

      Not at all. My youngest sister had a state issued ID when she was around 8yo. That way she could use "her" credit card (on her dad's account). The card was kept locked up so my other sister and I wouldn't take her to the mall to go shopping.

  2. KeshLives

    I hate 'disinformation' rules, because every time I've seen it so far, it's almost all political, and at least half of the 'disinformation' is actually facts that are inconvenient to whoever is in power. Meanwhile,

    actual disinformation that is positive to the current government is perfectly fine and allowed.

    1. lglethal Silver badge
      Go

      Whilst I agree that's often the case, there needs to be something to stop people encouraging violence.

      The recent violent protests by right wing extremists in the UK, was all kicked off through the deliberate misinformation that the attack on a kids dance group was perpetrated by an islamic refugee (it wasnt). That deliberate misinformation was known early on, and deliberately spread wider in order to call for attacks on all immigrants.

      Trumps bollocks claims about Haitian migrants eating their neighbours pets, was based on a deliberate piece of disinformation designed to try and get attacks started against Haitian migrants in the region.

      Should those sorts of deliberate misinformation created with the express purpose of encouraging violence be allowed? It is time we took back the discourse from the extremists and return it to civil society. And that starts with reining in the Antisocial media firms and the echo chambers they deliberately create...

      1. SundogUK Silver badge

        The cure will prove worse than the disease.

    2. Version 1.0 Silver badge
      Pint

      "A politician is an animal which can sit on a fence and yet keep both ears to the ground." -- A comment many years ago from H.L. Mencken, a journalist about American politicians. Australian politics for years now seem to be slightly less stupid than those in the rest of the world and as happy drinking beer as the rest of the population.

      1. Irongut Silver badge

        > Australian politics for years now seem to be slightly less stupid than those in the rest of the world

        Really? Even when they are insisting that Auz law trumps Mathematical law?

        I generally find stories about Australian politicians show them to be at least as stupid as UK politicians and verging on the stupidity of American politicians.

    3. Cav Bronze badge

      Nonsense. In the UK, at least, any effort to classify as disinformation any truth the establishment did not agree with, would be pounced on by the media.

      To suggest that hundreds of independent media outlets would conspire not to challenge such assertions of disinformation, by government, is simply conspiracy paranoia. The evidence is overwhelming that outlets, such as the one whose site we are on, are perfectly happy to challenge anyone and everyone.

    4. ecofeco Silver badge

      Weird, all "disinformation" (it's lying, call it what it is) has just come from the right wing nutjobs or greedy corporation.

      But I repeat myself.

      Does the left make mistakes? Of course, nobody is perfect, But others on the left are quick to say it is, whereas the right just doubles down and never admits their mistake. And then people die.

      Can't tell the difference? Too bad for you. In an eventual very mortal way.

      1. Denarius Silver badge
        Trollface

        not traverlled in mind much, have you ?

        @ecofeco

        Not lived in or heard of Doona Dans paradise then ? In Oz, we refer to them as mexicans since they are south of the border. (of NSW) Like their namesakes, many flee north for jobs, lower taxes and better weather.

  3. tiggity Silver badge

    "That admission didn't go down well. Even so, the fact that scraping Australians' content was made possible by privacy laws that are less strong than those in the EU meant Meta was able to emerge without looking entirely villainous."

    No, Meta still villains.

    To use a well known phrase, just because they could does not mean they should.

    1. Like a badger

      Anybody who thinks EU rules have had any material impact on data scraping by Meta and the rest of US big-tech needs their head examining.

      Yes, there's rules, there's even some enforcement, but only after the fact, it's incomplete enforcement, and big tech work on the basis that everything's legal unless they're caught, and then only after they've exhausted years of appeals up to the highest court possible. If GDPR was properly enforced, Google and Meta (for starters) wouldn't have any business in Europe at all.

  4. Bebu
    Windows

    A bit of a circus

    Albanese's govt is facing an election early 2025 so a fair bit of this might be taken with grain of salt.

    While I for one would be content if all social media were blocked in AU which is probably the only option that would prevent U16s from accessing these sites and even then I imagine there are quite a few cluey 15 year olds using a VPN.

    We have the head of ASIO wanting to ban secure (uninterceptable) messaging (Clipper reheated?) and governments legislating age limits on access to specific internet services without any practical idea on how that might be implemented. Not too far from the US state legislature on biblical authority that once proclaimed π=3. (Intelligent Design? So how are you lot accounted for then?)

    "Real experience from real people" while I understand what was intended this way of stating it seems just plain daft and open to derision like "you mean real abuse from real paedophiles?"

    I would have thought "a rich variety of experiences in a broad selection of environments from a diversity of people" might better describe the challenging and enriching processes desired.

    1. Denarius Silver badge

      Re: A bit of a circus

      Bebu. Another myth about Pi. They referred question to department of Swamps. ie, sinkholed it

  5. Groo The Wanderer Silver badge

    The only fascists I see around lately are Musk and Drumpf...

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      That's the short and long of it.

    2. Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch Silver badge

      The name Putin springs to mind.

      Fascist as an insult seems to have two purposes, and which one depends on whether you know what the word means.

      Naturally his Muskiness calls anyone who won't let him do whatever he wants with his toys fascist (see Free Speech Absolutist). Naturally Putin calls anyone who won't let Russia do whatever it wants fascist (see Appeal to History). Naturally Trump uses it when his random number generator doesn't land on Antifa, Woke, Commie, or Dangerous Liberal (see Weird). Must make those impressionable plebs think the bad people are really bad.

      But as to people who deny international norms of legality, aggressively shut down dissent, use legal and extralegal coercion and the incitement of mob behaviour to oppress their opponents, and cry shrilly to populist sentiment to evade rational criticism - think, and you'll know whom the cap fits.

      Historically, the definition of fascist has been so loose you could even accuse Santa Claus of it - him with his red suit, black leather belt, and armies of jackbooted elves, clamouring for domination of the whole world... I won't stand for it, I tell you!

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What was special about yesterday?

    It's not only Australia who started looking at firms who spread disinformation yesterday. RTÉ reported that the Coimisiún na Meán, the Irish media regulator, started a review:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/0912/1469681-regulator-online/

    According to the article, they are looking at claims that people in the EU are having trouble reporting illegal content on twelve sites, including X and Meta. (They all have their EU headquarters in Ireland.) The aim is to make sure that all the firms are complying with the Digital Services Act. It states:

    "Under the rules, online platforms must have easy to access and user-friendly ways for users to report illegal content. They must also have a clear and accessible point of contact for users to contact them."

    Of course, in the best civil-service traditions, this is a review. The article is careful to note that if, say, one of the companies was ignoring complaints, or just sending poop-emojis in response (to think of an example off the top of my head), then the next step would be that the regulator would "engage" with them. If that doesn't work, they could issue a compliance notice. If even that doesn't bring the company trembling into line, then it's on to opening a formal investigation. Which might lead to a fine. And a series of appeals. So expect absolutely sod all to happen for the next ten years or so. But it's still weird it was reported on the same day that Australia announced crackdowns on that sort of thing.

  7. W.S.Gosset Silver badge

    Misinformation

    >The definitions of misinformation and disinformation in the Bill are narrow

    This could _politely_ be described as complete fiction.

    The eSafety Commissioner is empowered to declare anything she feels like to be misinformation, for example.

    Exception: the government has specified that they are authorised to broadcast misinformation, and any friendly media companies are likewise explicitly authorised.

    She is doing very badly in court. So the Act removes access to the court.

    Etc etc.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cess pools

    Social Media is anything but social.

    It’s an adults only shite-fest.

    Any parent who knowingly allows a child to freely roam around in there is neglectful.

    Would you want your kids meting their friends at the local dive bar?

    Will the government’s new rules help?

    Most likely not.

  9. Winkypop Silver badge

    Musk calling people a fascist

    Is like Trump calling people weird.

  10. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

    As an Australian i support Albo. Its a shame Albo doesnt legislate Billion dollar fines instead of pathetic $50M.

    1. Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch Silver badge

      Hit them where it hurts. Make them pay in bitcoin.

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