back to article UK Lords push bill to tame rogue algorithms in public sector

The UK Parliament's second chamber is set to launch a bill designed to regulate the use of algorithms and automated decision-making by public bodies. There are currently no legal obligations on public authorities to be transparent about when and how they use algorithms to automate decision-making without human intervention or …

  1. Bebu
    Windows

    algorithmic transparency

    something I have the very distinct feeling that anything based on ML/LLM would intrinsically lack.

    Promised transparency in government and in civil (public) service has never exactly thrown much light on anything let alone some of the more scandalous episodes.

    Glasnost and Perestroika also are not greatly favoured in the West it would seem.

  2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

    Already there

    Isn't that already there? Under UK GDPR person has a right to know how decision has been made about them.

    Seems like the policy makers think that if law enforcement is not keen on enforcing existing law, they need to double the amount of law and that somehow will change anything.

    1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

      Re: Already there

      Under GDPR a UK citizen can ask what personal information is collected and stored and what it's used for. If the information is used to make a decision about, say, housing, tax, benefits, employment, etc. then they don't necessarily have automatic rights to know how or why the decision was made. I guess that, in theory, they could go to court if they are wealthy enough, but most of us can't afford legal redress.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Already there

        I think you are both right. GDPR imposes a responsibility on organisations to notify data subjects whenever significant decisions are made about them using automated decision-making. This information should be provided either up front when personal data is collected or as soon as practicable afterwards. However, as you both suggest, compliance with this law in practice is often weak, and can only be made effective through subject access requests which, while free in themselves, can be time-consuming and may require expensive legal follow-up if problems are found.

    2. Irongut Silver badge

      Re: Already there

      bLiar introduced more laws than any other PM before or since. Why would you expect bLiar Extra Smug Edition to do anything less?

  3. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

    What has the Horizon scandal got to do with AI? Horizon was a mixture of bad software engineering, bad project management and senior managers refusing to acknowledge reality to prop up their bonuses.

    1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

      There's an assumption in UK law that the machines are reliable - i.e. they do what they are intended to do - unless there is evidence to the contrary. This was the basis of most of the Horizon prosecutions and I think that the fact that the Post Office just stated that the Horizon system worked as intended was enough to prevent the defence digging any deeper. It sounds crap to me but IANAL.

      https://davidallengreen.com/2023/09/computer-says-guilty-an-introduction-to-the-evidential-presumption-that-computers-are-operating-correctly/

      1. Peter2 Silver badge

        I think that the fact that the Post Office just stated that the Horizon system worked as intended was enough to prevent the defence digging any deeper. It sounds crap to me but IANAL.

        Several independent experts also said Horizon was fine IIRC.

        The problem was that as employees of the company providing Horizon the independent witnesses weren't independent and appear to have (arguably knowingly) made factually inaccurate statements on behalf of their employer to cover up problems with Horizon to avoid damaging their employers relationship with the Post Office.

      2. Alan Brown Silver badge

        "There's an assumption in UK law that the machines are reliable"

        Thanks mostly to the mechanations of Post Office management convincing lawmakers to write things that way in order to reduce the legal challenges

        It's one particular law which needs to be struck off with extreme predjudice

  4. Headley_Grange Silver badge

    Accountability

    I think the danger here is treating the algorithm itself as legal entity. Algorithms are specced, designed, implemented and maintained by people and I'd like to see one person - someone high up in the organization, not some poor dev - on the hook for its performance. I sort of understand that once AI is brought into the equation then its performance isn't neccessarily quantifiable in the same way that a process-charted deterministic algorithm* is, but that's no reason for people to wash their hands of outcomes that have real impacts on people's lives. If I can be held responsible for my mad dog's behaviour when she's out in public then I don't see why the chief exec of my local council can't be held responsible for the council's automatic assessment of benefits, grass cutting, bus routes, etc.

    * https://flowingdata.com/2009/08/28/total-eclipse-of-the-heart-flowchart/

    *(not deterministic, but I think that there's a calculable** number of random run throughs would get probably get it right, although probability was never my strong subject.)

    **Left to the reader.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Blame it on the Algorithms

    No

    Blame it on the designers and the management who approved the design/approach.

    The Post Office knew exactly what it was doing, and when caught, stuck to it.

    1. Nematode Bronze badge

      Re: Blame it on the Algorithms

      Absolutely. And I think the downvoter needs to explain why the down vote. It seems self-evident to me that algorithms are entirely dependent on people and ideas/concepts in the first place, they don't just magically appear.

      1. navarac Silver badge

        Re: Blame it on the Algorithms

        It is the same old story, simply shit in = shit out. Algorythm or no algorythm.

        1. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: Blame it on the Algorithms

          "Computer says: Noooooo"

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    > Too often in the UK we legislate when the damage has already been done. We need to be proactive, not reactive, when it comes to protecting citizens and their interactions with new technologies.

    Been saying "nothing gets done until somebody dies" for years. Look at every single workplace law, almost all of them were in response to someone being killed or mutilated, not because it simply made sense. We haven't changed a bit in the last 200 years.

    1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

      People dying (often repeatedly) and then a large amount of campaigning for reform.

  7. navarac Silver badge

    Would be better if....

    >>>......regulate the use of algorithms and automated decision-making by public bodies.<<< had the words "public bodies deleted" and replace just with "decision-makers".

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