Feds urge 3D printing industry to end DIY machine guns

The US Department of Justice is turning to the 3D printing industry to help combat the scourge of machine gun conversion devices (MCDs) used by criminals to turn semi-automatic firearms into deadly bullet sprayers.  Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco made the request Friday during remarks announcing wider joint efforts …

[FlippingGerman]

Handgun?

"Full-auto" handguns in particular are fairly pointless; even the specialist police forces and military units don't seem to have a use for them. It wouldn't surprise me if they're *less* effective at hitting a target than a normal one - perhaps the DoJ ought to be encouraging them?!

It is inherently difficult to restrict such devices; automatic firearms often have even simpler mechanisms than semi-autos. 3D printing certainly lowers the bar for entry for making these things - far easier and cheaper than learning to become a machinist.

[O'Reg Inalsin]

Re: Handgun?

They're *less* effective at hitting a target than a normal one - but better at hitting bystanders.

[Marty McFly]

Re: Handgun?

Actually....no. Inexperienced full-auto shooters will naturally walk their rounds up during the cycle. It takes a conscious effort to hold the muzzle down. Most rounds will miss and go high.

[Arthur the cat]

Re: Handgun?

Isn't there a ridiculous "gangsta" trend of holding handguns horizontally? In that case rounds will spray in a horizontal arc.

[O'Reg Inalsin]

Re: Handgun?

So there is a method to that madness after all!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Handgun?

Rounds that go high are liable to fall and strike someone at a long distance.

[Alan Brown]

Re: Handgun?

What goes up, must come down

Meaning that if this happens, the bullets go a LONG way in the absence of a solid object behind the target

People being killed by "stray bullets" fired a mile or more away have been a regular USA newspaper staple for decades

[MachDiamond]

Re: Handgun?

"3D printing certainly lowers the bar for entry for making these things - far easier and cheaper than learning to become a machinist."

Of course, it you get it wrong...............

[scrubber]

Re: Handgun?

The armed and dangerous can become unarmed very quickly.

[Claptrap314]

Re: Handgun?

Hmmm.... "unarmed", "disarmed".... How about "dearmed"?

[MachDiamond]

Re: Handgun?

""3D printing certainly lowers the bar for entry for making these things - far easier and cheaper than learning to become a machinist.""

I downloaded the file for a common semi-automatic handgun and my slicing software gave me an estimate of 18 hours for the print. Anybody that's done a big print job knows it doesn't always go well especially if the aspect ratio means it won't have a good footprint on the bed. After printing, there's still a load of handwork that needs doing since holes are rarely round and edges need breaking. A video I watched where a reporter worked with somebody that makes they own 3D printed guns showed how twitchy they can be as the reporter made one over the course of a couple of days and had to spend a lot of time fine tuning it so it wouldn't jam after one shot. IIRC, one fault was that the purchased slide had issues.

I suppose that one criminal can specialize in making handguns for others, but in the US, the charges for a crime can flow back to all the participants regardless. Often times, it's far easier to just steal a quality made weapon than to risk having something that might not work or just blow up in hand. While governments may be finding more "ghost guns", there isn't as much data about the situation in which they find them. If they are just possessed so the hoodrat has cred, it doesn't matter if it's functional or not and many times police find that what they thought was real was a toy/replica. (I argue that the toy makes them "armed").

The story that a weapon without a serial number is a problem due to being untraceable is hogwash. A printed serial number isn't a RFID. Only a stupid criminal would use a gun registered in their name. Granted, stupidity in criminals isn't rare. A recent gun taken from a criminal traced to a police officer's lost/stolen gun. Interesting, but it's travels and uses since it was lost/stolen aren't known. There doesn't seem to be any connection between the criminal and the circumstances around when the gun was lost. I expect that nobody ground off the serial numbers as that would have been an instant problem to be found with it in any circumstance.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Handgun?

The issue isn't 3d printing a gun. It's 3d printing a very small restriction piece that turns the semi-auto back into an auto.

[Ghostman]

Re: Handgun?

The issue isn't 3d printing a gun. It's 3d printing a very small restriction piece that turns the semi-auto back into an auto.

I don't think you grasp the supreme measure of just how wrong your statement is. A semi-auto firearm is one pull of the trigger, one shot. A semi-auto is never a converted full auto. You do not convert it back to a full auto firearm since it never was one.

There are many reasons why handguns are not full auto. The biggest is the one mentioned before. It's hard to keep a full auto rifle on target (Yes, I've fired full auto rifles in the military.) It is way much harder to keep small sub-machine guns on target like the Mac-10 and Uzi. The muzzle tends to go up very quickly unless you keep a hard downward pull on the forearm and the stock against your shoulder in the "pouch".

Secondly is heat. Full auto is constant firing. Emptying a full magazine heats up the receiver, bolt, and barrel to the point of almost not being able to hold it. Also could cause the spontaneous "cooking off" of rounds.

In the military you learn to fire no more than 6 rounds at a time. You learn to mentally say fire round of six, pause, fire round of six, pause. Then it's easier to control the up-sweep and not let the firearm heat up on you.

My experience with full auto firearms include the M-16, the M-4, the Thompson, the M-60, and even Madsens.

I'm ashamed of the Register for using

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Handgun?

18 hours is a definite turn-off for me; I get nervous about doing a 6 hour print because something is liable to go wrong at any point.

[Alan Brown]

Re: Handgun?

> I argue that the toy makes them "armed"

In Britain (and many other countries), using a replica in any crime (including "brandishing a weapon") is treated in law as if the device is real

[cyberdemon]

Tax / Restrict Ammo?

Surely that is the sensible solution?

Any idiot can make a "gun" (ultimately it's just a short piece of pipe...), but it's far more difficult to make ammunition. So instead of "going ballistic" about 3D printed gun parts, why not instead make ammo both very expensive and hard to get hold of?

At that point, 3D printed auto-sears would become pointless, if each bullet costs 20 dollars and most of them miss

[FBee]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

Chris Rock - $5000 per bullet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZrFVtmRXrw

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

It's easy and cheap to make/reload ammo.

[DJO]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

Only if you can get all the bits.

Cartridge shell, pretty simple to make.

Projectile, even easier to make.

Propellant, easy to make badly, harder to make well.

Primer, really difficult to make yourself - very fiddly and involving hard to find and handle chemicals.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

And I bet all of that (plus your time) would make a 500% tax look cheap

And the only people who might bother doing that are already on terror watch lists, because anyone who can do all that could alternatively make a bomb..

[John PM Chappell]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

No, the earlier commentor was correct. It's relatively easy, with a moderately large initial outlay but very cheap per round cost. For a simple hand press, no automated feed, etc, that cost is much lower still but at the cost of time and needing to do tasks in batches.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

Actually the most effective gun control in the UK is the massive restriction on ammunition availability. Much more than the guns themselves.

Sure, you can buy an illegal pistol from a bloke down the pub but its probably going to come with half a dozen rounds and you can't just pop along to Walmart and buy more. Reloading equipment is also controlled (before you ask)

Maybe someone in the USA should review the 2nd Ammendment and decide if the right to bear arms includes having the ammo for them... keep your guns dudes, just keep them... empty.

[bombastic bob]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

no

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

Reloading equipment is also controlled (before you ask)

Not in my experience it isn't; no problem with presses, dies and brass.

Primers and powder are the only items where you'll be asked questions.

[Slow Joe Crow]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

Been there, done that, rationing/taxing ammunition also violates the 2A as does restricting magazines, it's an integral part of the "arm". California tried it and it's been a shit show that makes lawful users jump through hoops and get denied on false positive background checks while doing nothing to reduce crime rates. Seattle also tried a punitive tax which simply drove gun dealers out of King County. Heck I know people who have stockpiles of thousands of rounds. for that matter I have quite a bit of ammo and reloading components. Also worst case there a rea a lot of cap and ball revolvers out there which are unregulated out side of New Jersey. There's always a a way, One of Luty's articles was making .38 pistol ammunition from scratch.

[Andrew Scott]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

zip gun. fire cracker, tube, rock, and a match.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

I suspect you would be better off with a catapult..

[Marty McFly]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

Restricting Ammo... That has been done before. The British tried that during the American Revolution. They couldn't get guns out of the hands of civilians, so they tried disarming them by destroying their powder houses. We know about that tactic.

A gun is a "short piece of pipe"....uh...no. That would be a pipe bomb. Try it and see.

[Bill Gray]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

Well, true, we can't really keep people from having and using the sort of firearms used during the American Revolution.

If the criminal element has flintlock muskets, I'm not all that fussed about it.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

"A gun is a "short piece of pipe"....uh...no. That would be a pipe bomb. Try it and see."

Gas pipe would be a bomb, but the minimal description is still accurate. A good barrel is a short piece of thick wall pipe of a suitable alloy that's machined to good tolerances. How many shots do you need? A quick and dirty throw-away that's only good for one shot might be fine for somebody.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

> ...uh...no. That would be a pipe bomb. Try it and see

Well, a 3D printed gun is also known as a small bomb that explodes in the user's face and injures them ..

[Alan Brown]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

The difference between a zip gun and a pipe bomb is whether one end of the pipe is open

They're extremely easy to make, to the point that at my high school there was a fad for making them in the metalworking classes during the 1950s (Long before I attended)

It stopped when a student was accidentally shot in class - The incident and fad are noted in the school's historical records

[Alan Brown]

Re: Tax / Restrict Ammo?

Unsurprisingly, this is exactly why ammunition is controlled in countries with working gun laws

People like to point out that most Swiss homes have an assault rifle stored under the stairs. What they miss is that the ammunition for those rifles is strictly monitored and accounted for

[bombastic bob]

Re: Handgun?

In theory you could 3D print a mold, make a (or many) wax version(s) of that part, put wax version in plaster or casting sand, cast a metal part, then machine it with a decent mill/lathe/whatever. 3D print would speed up the process, but making a mold of "a something" can NOT be effectively stopped with a law. Not even close.

In my opinion, just LEGALIZE as much as you can, so law abiding citizens can LEGALLY own them, and any black market problem will just GO AWAY.

(and when law abiding citizens carry firearms, criminals run scared),

[MachDiamond]

Re: Handgun?

"and any black market problem will just GO AWAY."

I wouldn't go that far, but if the laws around criminal use of firearms was enforced, and there are a whole bunch of laws on the books, we'd have a lot more cheap labor to go around.

[jailbird]

Re: Handgun?

Done and done.

There's an insane number of laws involving firearms (eg https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/federal-firearms-regulations-reference-guide-2014-edition-atf-p-53004/download is just federal, not state) and they're already heavily enforced/punished.

[Alan Brown]

Re: Handgun?

"cheap labour" meaning state-sactioned slavery per the 13th amendment

Unlike most countries, the USA hasn't actually outlawed slavery - merely private ownership of slaves

This is one of the reasons why it's regarded as "Not a first world country" by many people

[MachDiamond]

Re: Handgun?

""cheap labour" meaning state-sactioned slavery per the 13th amendment"

Sure. Incarceration is supposed to also rehabilitate the criminal beyond just warehousing them for some time. Learning a trade would be a good use of time and the government is a huge consumer themselves so there's plenty of work to go around. I am against private industry being able to engage prisoners for work unless the output is for government use. ie, the private company is managing the program on behalf of the government, but the less of that, the better.

Even big companies deduct for room and board or it becomes a component of a worker's compensation in certain circumstances. Take, for instance, cruise ship workers. They can't commute to work and cooking in their rooms would be a bad thing. Many oil fields have bunk houses and cafeterias but workers are allowed to provide their own arrangements if they like. A prison has many other expenses as an oil field worker isn't surrounded by guards to keep them from leaving. While medical insurance might be provided, prisoners are often covered beyond what many health insurance packages will provide without a lot of extra premium costs. There's controversy in the US over the Government paying for "gender affirming" surgery to prisoners. I expect it can be very expensive (I haven't had a need to shop) so doing a crime with a 2-3 year ticket (out in 18 months) could be a trade somebody might find acceptable.

[Alan Brown]

Re: Handgun?

What you're missing with criminals is that the guns are entirely secondary to the task at hand

It's all about money and the vast majority of criminality is either addicts seeking cash for their next hit or gangs having turf wars

There are better and easier ways of curbing the issue and the ready availability of weapons as Portugual has demonstrated.

Narcogangs have more or less abandoned the country and petty crime rates plummeted as a result

Regardless of the USA politics of peddling "fear" as a weapon of psychological control, outside of warzones we are collectively safer in our societies than we have ever been in history and a good part of the attention paid to violent crime is because it's so unusual these days

[GrumpyKiwi]

The UK's own PA Lutey long ago showed that anyone with access to plumbing suplies could make a fully automatic SMG. (A terribly bad one, but a working one nevertheless).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIhGCRIQnCA

This has shades of trying to ban plumbing supplies.

[Bebu]

The unthinkable option...

you cannot convert a semi-automatic if you don't have a semi-automatic to begin with or indeed any firearm.

I find it convenient but indicative that the constitutional originalism of the bench of SCOTUS doesn't extend to the second amendment.

[Joe W]

Re: The unthinkable option...

Yes. That. Having allowed sale of a bunch of military grade (but without the auto fire) guns in the first place was probably a stupid idea.

Now complaining that those can be converted to the original version is hypocritical.

Yes, we will get downvoted for stating the blinding obvious.

[SundogUK]

Re: The unthinkable option...

There is no such thing as a 'military grade' firearm.

[Roland6]

Re: The unthinkable option...

Maxim machine gun?

Can’t think of any reasonable non-military application for this weapon…

[Ken G]

Re: The unthinkable option...

You've never heard of the Maxim Hunting Carbine?

[Roland6]

Re: The unthinkable option...

Interesting it was made for the Russian civilian market…

But can’t find an example of civilian usage, unless use by the authorities against strikers and people gathering together is classed as “civilian”.

[Andrew Scott]

Re: The unthinkable option...

Sure, shred bambi.

[Ken G]

Re: The unthinkable option...

I was thinking shredded duck. With those little pancakes.

[BFeely]

Re: The unthinkable option...

Maxim doesn't sell non-automatic guns?

[Ken Shabby]

Re: The unthinkable option...

The Australian Army used Lewis guns against emus in the 1930’s, the Diggers failed in a quite spectacular manner.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: The unthinkable option...

>Maxim machine gun?

Can’t think of any reasonable non-military application for this weapon…

Hoards of rabbits coming right for us!

[BFeely]

Re: The unthinkable option...

Or perhaps mounted to a helicopter for a Texas feral pig slaughter?

[jake]

Re: The unthinkable option...

"Can’t think of any reasonable non-military application for this weapon…"

Education, historical reenactment and fun come to mind ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The unthinkable option...

"That will teach them to come near my house again" kind of educational?

[MachDiamond]

Re: The unthinkable option...

"There is no such thing as a 'military grade' firearm."

It might also denote a lower grade of weapon. They will be built to a price whereas somebody wanting a really good firearm will spend what it takes for quality. If you look for first class hunting shotguns, they are works of art and sell for crazy money. They are also generational and will be handed down several times. What the military will buy are cheap and cheerful that will meet a minimum spec. They aren't particularly interested in weapons that are built to last 100 years or more.

[Yankee Doodle Doofus]

Re: The unthinkable option...

< "What the military will buy are cheap and cheerful that will meet a minimum spec. They aren't particularly interested in weapons that are built to last..."

Um... No. There are a lot of problems with the (U.S.) military, but underspending on equipment is not one of them. Quite the opposite, really. Any weapons purchased will have passed a ridiculous number of tests in nearly every conceivable condition before orders are placed.

[Claptrap314]

Re: The unthinkable option...

Made by the lowest bidder.

[Ken G]

Re: The unthinkable option...

The lowest bidder meeting a ridiculously detailed specification and all the procurement due diligence checks.

Almost indistinguishable from the highest bidder.

[MachDiamond]

Re: The unthinkable option...

"Um... No. There are a lot of problems with the (U.S.) military, but underspending on equipment is not one of them."

I wrote "cheap", not inexpensive.

They will have undergone testing to be sure they meet spec. What the spec is can be an issue.

[GrumpyKiwi]

Re: The unthinkable option...

Err the whole point of that video was that someone was easily able to make a full auto SMG out of just plumbing supplies. He DIDN'T have a semi-auto in the first place, just access to the local Plumbing World.

In Australia about a decade back there was someone in NSW making copies of the MAC-11 SMG in their basement to sell to the various biker gangs.

You don't have to be a rocket surgeon.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The unthinkable option...

I'd have thought an Owens Gun would have been an easier build.

It's not the convertor that's the problem with 3D printers. It's that it's suddenly become easy to rifle a barrel by 3D printing a mandrel for electrochemical machining.

[graeme leggett]

Re: The unthinkable option...

The Owen Gun would be more patriotic.

personally having watched too much Gun Jesus ( Forgotten Weapons) and Royal Armouries' Johnathon Ferguson I suspect I could make a fully (mal)functioning Sten machine carbine.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: The unthinkable option...

During the 'troubles' the side not receiving stocks of arms from the USA were manufacturing quite competent sub-machine guns of their own design.

Fortunately a couple of decades of de-industrialisation and stopping teaching metalwork in school means we don't have to worry about the proles making Sten guns in their sheds.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The unthinkable option...

Fortunately they were in a position to 'borrow' any difficult bits like magazines and cartridges from their UDR armouries.

[scrubber]

Re: The unthinkable option...

Constitutional Originalism would not only allow machine guns (e.g. Puckle Guns, Kalthoff Repeater and derivatives) but also people to own cannons and warships (see Privateers).

Aarrr.

[IvyKing]

Re: The unthinkable option...

"Letters of Marque"

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: The unthinkable option...

They can take my trebuchet and ballista from my cold dead legions

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: The unthinkable option...

Own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. Four ruffians break into my house. "What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. Blow a golf ball-sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbor's dog. I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grapeshot, "Tally ho lads" the grapeshot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the founding fathers intended.

[MachDiamond]

Re: The unthinkable option...

"you cannot convert a semi-automatic if you don't have a semi-automatic to begin with or indeed any firearm."

Yes but, some time ago I watched a documentary on poor people that made money hand filing copies of .45 1911's. I sort of doubt that replacement parts would drop right in as they are finished by hand individually, but it's apparently worth it to some people to spend the time filing a metal block for hours/day.

[jailbird]

Re: The unthinkable option...

Replacement barrels and such for 1911s usually require handfitting anyways, unless you get parts with such loose tolerances that your accuracy goes out the window

[jailbird]

Re: The unthinkable option...

Except that it does. Check out a Pickle Gun on Wikipedia.

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

Okay, sure

Unregistered fully automatic firearms and home-made parts that make semi-automatic firearms fully automatic are illegal. Sure. But an M16 isn't that much more effective at shooting up a school than an AR15.

As usual, it's too difficult to address the real problem in the land of the free, so they fiddle around at the edges.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Okay, sure

Has there been a school shooting with a fully automatic weapon?

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

Re: Okay, sure

I feel like that's an infinite monkey theorem type question...

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Okay, sure

>Has there been a school shooting with a fully automatic weapon?

Has there been a school attack using a thermonuclear weapon?

No, and yet there are all these busy-body government regulations on minors owning even the simplest Hydrogen bombs

[Grunchy]

Re: Okay, sure

“The real problem” is that regular folks have no way of disqualifying the kooks in politics! All you can do is vote for the other kook. Well, the two major political parties have dominated the political landscape and you have to be this much [=====] corrupt to be invited to participate.

There is just one kind of democracy that allows opposition and that’s the Plebiscite. What we need to do is bring the opposition power of the Plebiscite to the ballot box, and EVERYTHING is solved.

Ever wonder why famous celebrities can challenge elections despite bringing nothing but recognition? Because nobody is allowed to oppose any candidate, is why!

Hey here’s my manifesto.

https://youtu.be/1WiPbLgMHSQ

[DJO]

Re: Okay, sure

No it wont because the way a proposition is worded influences the results. Polling companies have known this for ever and will always word surveys to push people to the results they want.

It may only affect a small number of people but that's all you need to tip the balance one way.

[JohnSheeran]

Re: Okay, sure

The real problem is that there are no "regular people". We are all kooks but just out of phase with each other.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Okay, sure

>“The real problem” is that regular folks have no way of disqualifying the kooks in politics!

Have you thought about forming a well-regulated militia ?

[MachDiamond]

Re: Okay, sure

"But an M16 isn't that much more effective at shooting up a school than an AR15."

Those are both very similar weapons. It doesn't take too much quality in the weapon before the user is the limitation. The same thing applies to computers, cameras and sewing machines. If you don't have very good skills, having the best kit doesn't really help other than it might take more abuse from a noob without breaking.

[NapTime ForTruth]

3D Printer = Terrorist By Default?

America:

"We need many, many guns for freedom and safety."

Also America:

"We have a gun problem that cannot be solved by freedom guns."

Also, also America:

"Our freedom gun problems are caused by...3D printers."

W...T...F?

(Icon for personal weapon optimization.)

[Anonymous Coward]

Dubious Conversions

Decades ago, a friend bought a new, super-cheap, made in the Phillipines .22 calibre rifle at a major-chain sporting goods store.

After he'd had it for a couple of months, we were out one day, target shooting in the woods in our favorite area, a depression with a high, semi-circular berm as a backstop.

My friend aimed, pulled the trigger, and we both were shocked when it went full-auto. The firing rate was so high that we didn't hear individual 'bangs'. Instead, we heard a single, longish 'bang'.

We experimented, and found it would fire five to seven bullets before it jammed. And it did jam, every time we tried it. He ended up taking it apart, removing the broken pieces of a pin, and replacing the broken pin with a machine screw and two nuts. After that, it worked as it originally had -- as a non-jamming, semi-auto rifle.

I expect most of the people using MCDs will obtain similarly-useless results.

[IvyKing]

Re: Dubious Conversions

I've heard similar stories of .22 rimfire rifles going full auto due to a defective disconnector, which implies that a bit of work with a file would do the trick for an appropriate rifle.

One difference between a semi automatic rifle and a rifle intended for full auto use is that the latter will fire from an open bolt as a round sitting in a hot chamber can "cook-off".

[JT_3K]

Re: Dubious Conversions

I think your comment above all highlights the problem with the approach in the main article. You can't blame the file manufacturer, or start to place restrictions on sales of hand-tools to try to curb this problem. The crux of the issue is the people looking to achieve this. You can't solve the knife-crime issues in London by banning the sales of kitchen knives wholesale across the UK, nor by holding an artisanal Japanese craft kitchen knife manufacturer running a national-only B2B sales model but with secondary market export firms responsible for the stabbing of a teenager in a McDonalds in Croydon 30 years after the manufacture of the knife for local sale, and ask them to prevent it. Nor can you look to remove the hands of all potential assailants as they could be used for stabbing, or ban all under 25s from a public area to remove the opportunity.

I get the sense that the low level of technological comprehension (possibly in relation to the high average ages of US Senators, and potentially the narrow experience sphere of that career track) leads a mindset that this approach can work. Perhaps targeting those releasing the models may work, but in a global market and with potential for home-CAD, that seems unlikely too.

[I am the liquor]

Re: Dubious Conversions

Perhaps they believe this approach can work, but more likely, they think this approach can give sufficient appearance of "doing something" to mollify one group of voters, while not doing so much as to upset another.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Dubious Conversions

"You can't blame the file manufacturer, or start to place restrictions on sales of hand-tools to try to curb this problem. "

How about rocks? Stoning used to be popular.

Lengths of lumber? Sir Dennis Eaton Hogg thought well of traveling with a sturdy cricket bat.

Just about everything has been used as a weapon. There's no closing Pandora's box once its been opened. What can be done is have serious consequences that are enforced for using a weapon. There should be no way somebody arrested and charged with a crime that involves any sort of weapon can get out on a personal recognizance signature bond. Only, perhaps, if there's strong evidence that it was in self defense or to protect somebody else under immediate threat. With so many officers wearing body cams, a judge should have a quick look before letting an arrestee out of custody. As it is, many criminals have been taught that they won't receive harsh treatment (at the hands of the law) and will in the end have most of the charges dropped anyway.

[Jim Whitaker]

Re: Dubious Conversions

And my experience with this problem was a .22 target pistol. Fortunately good range discipline prevented any damage. And the armourer said: " yes , it does that sometimes"!

[Anonymous Coward]

What difference will this make?

There is no way that this will stop merkins shooting up schools with legal guns...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What difference will this make?

There does seem to be a common thread linking the vast majority of school shooters. Mental health issues and over medication being the two that stand out.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What difference will this make?

If they're white. If they're brown then it's terrorism.

[Rich 2]

Re: What difference will this make?

“There does seem to be a common thread linking the vast majority of school shooters. Mental health issues and over medication being the two that stand out.”

AND GUNS!! Don’t forget the GUNS

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What difference will this make?

The US has had lots of guns for a VERY long time and has only recently had this problem with them.

[Arthur the cat]

Re: What difference will this make?

The US has had lots of guns for a VERY long time and has only recently had this problem with them.

Tulsa, 1921. Admittedly it wasn't just a school and there were weapons other than guns, but it was very definitely a problem.

[Kernel]

Re: What difference will this make?

"The US has had lots of guns for a VERY long time and has only recently had this problem with them."

There are other countries that have more guns per person out in the wild, including military issue weapons, but don't have the 'gun problem' that the US has - I personally think it's more a mental health and cultural problem, rather than simple availability of guns.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What difference will this make?

It is very much a mental health problem. Doctors in the US are very quick to prescribe medication for a 'quick fix' (and quick profit usually) without any concerns for the long term effects.

The simple fact that gun suicide is such a problem in the US really indicates this.

The gun problem in Chicago, LA, Detroit etc is gang related and comes down to a combo of broken families (lots of baby daddies), schools that just don't care and politicians who refuse to face facts and continue to treat such communities as victims of some imaginary higher power and pretty much keep them in poverty to suit an agenda.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What difference will this make?

>The US has had lots of guns for a VERY long time and has only recently had this problem with them.

Because we only started reporting it when they started shooting white kids?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What difference will this make?

I thought they'd proved that shootings, school or otherwise, had nothing to do with guns. It's just coincidence that places with more guns have more shootings.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What difference will this make?

The way the statistics are gathered is highly misleading. The majority of "school shootings" are not school shootings at all, but instead are merely incidents that happen to take place close to a school, (usually gang violence and police-involved shootings), incidents that only coincidental take place within a school (again, gang violence and police involved shootings that happened on school grounds), accidental discharges within or near to a school, right down to cases of someone with a .22 plinking cans at night near the school grounds. They include incidents with airsoft and paintball guns and even water pistols. There are very few instances of people deliberately going into a school and shooting it up, which is why it makes the national news every time it happens. If it was as common as they claim, it would be reported with the same level of disinterest as a murder in Chicago.

[Ken G]

Re: What difference will this make?

There are very few instances of people deliberately going into a school and shooting it up

for a given value of 'few'.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What difference will this make?

Well that was the point, wasn't it? Once you properly define a school shooting - as someone deliberately entering a school to target students and staff there, rather than just any discharge of a weapon in or near school grounds for any reason - the average rate of school shootings across the entire United States is less than 2 a year. This is similar to the average rate across the entire EU.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What difference will this make?

mental health issues - definitely a talking point for why gun owners shouldnt secure their weapons but also a good point for screening potential owners of guns

"over medication" - being used on rotation with "need more God in schools", "it's computer games" "inner city gangs"?

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: What difference will this make?

Didn't we solve this by putting those "explicit lyrics" warnings on CDs?

[Andrew Scott]

Re: What difference will this make?

Being a teen is by definition a mental health problem, or don't people remember their teen years?

[Andrew Scott]

Re: What difference will this make?

Or churches or massage parlors or super markets or night clubs.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: What difference will this make?

>There is no way that this will stop merkins shooting up schools with legal guns...

Not while schools are still legal

Fortunately many right-thinking political leaders are committed to a solution

[MachDiamond]

In application

Machine guns are mainly used to keep heads down. While they aren't very accurate, they do put a lot of lead downrange so if you are on the wrong side of one, you take cover to keep them from getting lucky. Lead has to be carried so expending a whole lot of it in a big hurry gets very heavy and/or lasts a very short period of time. Most rifles used by the military will be used in single shot or three shot modes to preserve ammunition. By the time one can practice enough to be semi-competent with a machine gun, they've spent a white van full of high denomination back notes. The same goes for large caliber rifles that are often banned. Yes, they can shoot far and go through solid metal, but the cost to fire them is expensive. A day at the range can easily cost thousands.

[Joe W]

Re: In application

I was semi-competent with a machine gun (MG 3, which is a 7.62mm weapon, basically the old MG 42 the Nazis used in WW2). Didn't take that much time. It was enough to shoot the lowest level marksmanship medal (admittedly MG was way more difficult than handgun or rifle, where I got higher marks).

[Andrew Scott]

Re: In application

Don't think they were trying to keep head down on St. valentines in chicago. Mostly dead people. when you have a crowd like a concert or school, a machine gun doesn't need to be accurate to do a lot of damage.

[MachDiamond]

Re: In application

"when you have a crowd like a concert or school, a machine gun doesn't need to be accurate to do a lot of damage."

Anything that goes bang will be an issue with a crowd. A shotgun or a pressure cooker bomb could arguably do more damage.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: In application

... or possibly, a huge American 4-wheel drive pickup truck driven through a crowd.

[Anonymous Coward]

It’s like arguing about the colour of a hand grenade

Careful with those blue ones!

Deadly!

[Jim Whitaker]

A simple remedy

Of course that will work.

[Ball boy]

Not been thought out very well.

Just how many 3D printers are there in the US - and how many have been used to create these modified parts? I'll wager it's a small percentage at best. Then there's the problem of resale: if I own a 3D and decide to upgrade...am I then obliged to store the details of the person who buys my second-hand machine? Might get that to work for a commercial vendor of second hand goods - but not in the domestic market. If you're hell-bent on this, controlling the supplies of the raw materials would be marginally better because it then doesn't matter where the printer comes from or who currently owns it.

The problems, surely, are the rules around owning a weapon in the first place and the reason so many people appear to abuse them. The former requires dealing with the right to bear arms (which was probably reasonable in Wyatt Earp's time but seems a little out-dated now) and the latter is a social issue that would require phenomenal spending to address. Neither option would go down well with the American Public so it's politically easier to be seen to do something rather than face the underlying issue.

[Anonymous Coward]

The underlying issue is that the vast majority of gun crime in the US is committed with illegally owned guns.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/mar/12/john-faso/do-illegal-gun-owners-commit-most-gun-crime-rep-fa/

[call-me-mark]

On the other hand, the majority of gun _deaths_ are inflicted with the dead person's own gun.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ages 40 and over, yes.

Kids in their teens to late 20s its most likely gang related.

[Andrew Scott]

yes, they're called "cliques"

[Yankee Doodle Doofus]

< "On the other hand, the majority of gun _deaths_ are inflicted with the dead person's own gun."

True. It's called suicide, which is a problem that gun control will never solve.

[Ken G]

Without affecting their right to keep or bear arms, why not place severe restrictions on ammunition, cartridges, primers and propellant?

Yes, you will find some committed people engineering their own replacements but 90% of nutters won't have the discipline.

[Anonymous Coward]

It will just come across from south america along with the drugs. Its the same way bullets get into the hands of criminals in the UK.

[Yankee Doodle Doofus]

< "Without affecting their right to keep or bear arms, why not place severe restrictions on ammunition, cartridges, primers and propellant?"

Without affecting their right to free speech, why not cut out the tongues of those who say things we don't like? /s

[doublelayer]

The other problem, and probably the largest one, is the description of the part you need. I have not looked and don't have a gun, so I can't prove the article correct, but if it is, here's their description:

"These devices, also known as "switches" or "auto sears," can be smaller than a USB flash drive and made of just a single piece of plastic."

There's nothing that can be controlled when the pieces we're talking about are that simple. One person who knows what they're doing could print thousands, so all you need is one such person attached to people who will distribute them and there could be only one printer involved. That printer doesn't have to be in the country as small plastic things get mailed in all the time. Meanwhile, people who want one of these things probably only want one or two, so it's not like they'll set off many alarms if they get their own printer or borrow another one.

I don't have a solution I can sell to US politicians. I am quite confident that this one won't work.

[jake]

"One person who knows what they're doing could print thousands"

One person with a CNC could make thousands in metal faster than you can 3D print them in plastic.

And yet, those of us with mills and the know-how do not.

Why not? Simple, really ... it's because we know that the rest of the gun those parts are built for is not built to handle full-auto fire. Look at the complete breech and frame of a Thompson "Tommy gun" v.s. the same parts in a M1911 Colt pistol, each chambered for the exact same .45 ACP round. One is built for full-auto fire, the other is not. You can visually SEE the difference ... and those of us who know a thing or two about metallurgy know the differences aren't just skin deep. So why on earth would I make my .45 pistols full-auto? I kind of value my fingers and hands. To say nothing of the replacement cost when I break my Kimbers through sheer user stupidity.

But then, nobody ever said criminals were smart.

[MachDiamond]

"If you're hell-bent on this, controlling the supplies of the raw materials would be marginally better because it then doesn't matter where the printer comes from or who currently owns it."

I have a commercially made 3D printer sitting next to me and the parts to make a home-brew in the office closet. I've had the notion of building a CNC wood router and that's only little different in design from a CNC mill where I could make things out of metal and perhaps even faster than 3D printing.

The really serious people into filament printing also have extruders to recycle scrap and create their own materials. What? are They going to ban Nylon or ABS? PLA is easier to work with, but other materials are used as well. I looked at buying/building an extruder but it wasn't that much cheaper than buying rolls of filament for the volume of stuff I make. If I had to get a license to buy 1.75 mm filament, I'd have another look.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are extruding filament at home then what's to stop you from grinding up the cases of old electronic products for free ABS or PC/ABS blend?

[pip25]

Ease of misuse

Just a naïve thought: if everyone really has to have guns, how about giving out guns that CANNOT be made fully automatic with a single piece of plastic...?

[MachDiamond]

Re: Ease of misuse

"how about giving out guns that CANNOT be made fully automatic with a single piece of plastic...?"

It's more complicated to make a firearm that only fires one round with each pull of the trigger. The little piece of material is shoved in to prevent the mechanism from needing to be reset each time. Manufactures could come up with something that would be difficult to modify but it would be more complex and more likely to malfunction. Since there are lots of plans in the wild already, it's not a big impediment to somebody wanting to go full auto. Malfunctions also lead to injuries when people try to clear the weapon improperly or it goes off unexpectedly.

[JulieM]

The real problem

The real problem is that the people in charge of the USA are more upset by the thought of not being allowed to carry weapons ready to reduce anyone they like, or don't like, to a pile of bloody remains, instantly, any time they like, than they are by the thought of children dying.

And until that fundamental issue is dealt with, and these pathetic, infantile little men either (1) start valuing the lives of actual children over the thought of never getting to live out their rocking-horse-cowboy fantasies or (2) are forcibly excluded from the political process altogether, nothing is going to get any better.

[CountCadaver]

Re: The real problem

Though there are women equally as infantile - Tommi Lahren, Ann Coulter, MTG, Lauren Boebert and more

[Rich 2]

What’s the problem?

Why is the US govt even looking at this “problem”

They LIKE shooting each other in the good ol’ US of A. I think they even get extra points for shouting up a school, don’t they? (*)

(*) crass and in very bad taste? Of course. But what can you say about a society that has (many) more guns than people and blame the daily mass shootings on EVERYTHING except the fact that they all have bloody GUNS? Such a fucked-up country

[MachDiamond]

Re: What’s the problem?

"Such a fucked-up country"

On the BBC website just today, a kid was released from custody after slashing a shop owner with a knife and 30 minutes after his release, sucker punched an old man who fell and died after hitting his head. Perhaps now they'll keep him in custody pending trial, for homicide.

[Grunchy]

Control bullets

The 2nd amendment is all about arms but there’s nothing about bullets. So, control bullets.

(Bullets are explosive devices. All other explosive devices are tightly controlled.)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Control bullets

Bullets are just lead (although copper and other materials are being introduced for environmental reasons for right-pondians).

Cartridges (that propel the bullet) use a propellant not an explosive.

[Grunchy]

Re: Control bullets

“Cartridges use a propellant not an explosive.”

Semantics? Our colleagues at Gun Zone mistakenly think ammunition can somehow “explode” if it catches on fire. Where did they get this bonkers notion when ammo have no explosive whatsoever?!

https://thegunzone.com/what-happens-to-ammo-in-a-house-fire/

[JulieM]

Re: Control bullets

Does a chemical reaction occur in which the products occupy significantly more space than the original reagents and as a result of which, many Joules of KE are imparted to very few kg. of metal, which then travel at a lot of m/s?

It's precisely because of arseholes arguing over which word is best instead of recognising that real people are getting hurt and killed that we are in this mess.

[Joshishmo]

Re: Control bullets

That's what guns were created and are designed for, killing things. Guns, on their own, are inert pieces of metal and plastic. People are the real problem. Ignorant, hateful or plain mentally ill people, kill people. They do it with vehicles, cookware, even fire extinguishers for crying out loud.

[Rich 2]

Re: Control bullets

And it is THIS fucked-up thinking that is why the US is such a fucked-up society. Yes, people DO kill each other with lots of things other than guns. Which is, obviously, an excellent reason to do NOTHING about the guns.

Is the kind of logic Dr. Strangelove would be proud of

Lots of people get killed in traffic accidents; even those wearing seatbelts. Is that a reason NOT to wear a seatbelt?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Control bullets

The US is an f-ed up society as you have an oligarchical uniparty ruling elite who are busy keeping the plebs fighting between themselves while continually promising that their faction of the ruling elite are the only ones who can solve societies ills all while they are the ones causing those very problems.

[JulieM]

Re: Control bullets

Killing things is *bad*. Anything that makes it harder to kill things is good.

People may well be the problem; but it's incontrovertible that a person with a gun can do much more damage, from a greater distance, in a shorter time and is harder for anyone else to stop than a person with almost anything else.

Speaking as a person who lives in a country with next to no guns and where any death by shooting is headline news, it's very hard for me to hear anyone defending the existence of guns and not think they are, on some level, really defending a personal fantasy of (justifiably, in their mind; because of course they imagine themself as being "the good guy with a gun" -- not realising that that's also exactly how the bad guy with a gun imagines himself) blowing someone's brains out.

That is just the way you come across when you defend the indefensible.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Control bullets

"Killing things is *bad*."

If somebody breaks into my home to rob me, they need killin'. It would also be a good thing since they'd be likely to do the same thing again and may have done it prior.

In a perfect world after we've genetically modified the entire population to be non-agressive, there would be no need to remove people from the population abruptly. I don't think anybody could model what downsides where would be to this. We are programmed to take actions to be able to provide for ourselves and our families. With some people, this doesn't have any cap on what they might do in pursuit of that goal. Other's are just greedy and without any punishments will just take from others without limit. That can be food, money or it can be taking other things that society has deemed really bad to do to others without their permission.

[Conor Stewart]

This will stop nothing

The parts they are talking about existed long before 3D printers and can be made by other methods.

They say they are smaller than a USB stick and can be made by 3D printing? Then they can likely be made by someone with a block of plastic and a file then and plenty of other methods.

The only reason they are seeing an increase in the number of arrests for them is because they are looking for them now.

[MachDiamond]

Re: This will stop nothing

"Then they can likely be made by someone with a block of plastic and a file then and plenty of other methods."

I'm thinking wire EDM with a tab left so the parts remains with the larger piece of material. Now it's a rectangular piece of metal plate/sheet and can be disguised by putting a sticker on that has the appearance of a stock label claiming the material is a sample coupon of an alloy. I wonder if even an x-ray would pick up that the parts are there. A little finishing with a file to knock off the sharp edges and presto, you have the part and it doesn't look like what customs people will have been trained to spot.

[Slow Joe Crow]

Glock Switches are more a status symbol among gang members than anything practical. If anything the availability of cheap semi-auto pistols in the US makes crime less dangerous since elsewhere the baddies go straight to home made machine pistols and spray and pray. This more of a moral panic than areal issue outside urban no go areas and the ATF needs something they go after since pistol braces, home made firearms and bump stocks are off the table

[HMcG]

> If anything the availability of cheap semi-auto pistols in the US makes crime less dangerous

It only makes it less dangerous to the intended target, it makes it much more dangerous to the innocent bystanders.

[Giintak]

I would be curious to see the stats of crimes committed with such a modified firearm, not just the crime of owning a piece of plastic that reduces the effectiveness of the device to being little more than a fun weekend toy, undoubtedly the reason for which nearly all of these were printed.

[Anonymous Coward]

America

Will the last person still standing please turn off the lights.

[jake]

Re: America

There are far, far more people clamo(u)ring to get into the US than are leaving the place.

[MachDiamond]

Re: America

"There are far, far more people clamo(u)ring to get into the US than are leaving the place."

It's currently a hot topic. The border patrol keeps sums on how many they estimate aren't stopped when trying to cross informally and it's a very large number. Combined with those that enter the country legally along with the ones caught and it's very surprising there aren't countries in South America that consist of nobody more than a dictator and some death squads. Obviously, a certain number of serfs is required.

[Hangulman]

I strongly suspect the uptick in MCD siezures has a lot less to do with 3D printing and a lot more to do with Amazon, Wish, Aliexpress, and drop shippers from Shenzhen.

The DoJ doesn't hire psychics to tell them if someone printed an illegal part, but they've knocked on a LOT of doors after people bought "solvent traps" "mower mufflers" and such online.

I wouldn't trust a fragile 3D printed part like a sear or "glock switch" to deal with the stresses very well, even if it was made of PLA+, Nylon, or dupont Zytel.

[jake]

"even if it was made of PLA+, Nylon, or dupont Zytel."

An experiment you can do at home: Take two identical nuts, say half inch or 12mm or thereabouts. One made of steel (any kind of steel will do for this), and one made of PLA+, Nylon or Zytel. Put both on a smooth, solid surface. Strike each a couple times with a 5lb (2.5 kilo) lump hammer. Then try to thread them on a bolt. Report back.

[justjosephhere]

I had nothing more ambitious nor constructive to do, so I indulged myself in carrying out your proposed experiment.

The hammer was a 6-pound sledge.

The steel nut and the nylon nut both were half-inch.

An actual anvil was the work surface.

Both nuts were upset to the degree that neither would thread onto the bolt that both fit previously.

However, the nylon nut was threaded onto the bolt after three re-tries by hand.

The reason is that the slightly softer material was realigned with a bit of force.

The steel nut would have required use of a tap to recut the initial threads.

[Ryan D]

If I recall correctly

One of the challenges faced by some countries was not the printing of a complete weapon which could suffer from tolerance issues in printing, but that component such as the upper receiver and frames while buying easily accessible components which are not controlled or are loosely controlled such as trigger blocks, bolts, barrels etc. This means that you can print a solid and relatively reliable short term use firearm and recycle parts as needed.

Nasty business.