back to article France charges Telegram CEO with multiple crimes

French police have laid multiple charges against Pavel Durov, co-founder and CEO of encrypted messaging platform Telegram. The multi-billionaire was arrested last Saturday at Le Bourget airport, but has since been freed on a bail of €5 million and must report to the police twice a week. He is not allowed to leave the country …

  1. Khaptain Silver badge

    "It looks like he didn't comply"

    Drugs are being sold openly on TikTok, Snapchat, Instagram etc So why are the Governments doing nothing to stop them too. It literally takes 5 minutes to find, select and pay for almost anything you want on these platforms and nothing is being done about it. Telegram is doing nothing that these other platforms are not already doing openly..

    So what's the real take :

    "It looks like he didn't comply"

    The very heart and soul of the matter lies here, comply or be sent down like a scurvy dog.

    1. Mike 125

      Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

      > So why are the Governments doing nothing to stop them too.

      You gotta start somewhere.

      There're some things not to like about the French. This isn't one of them.

      1. Craig 2

        Re: "why are the Governments doing nothing"

        Also, I was under the impression that other companies DO comply with law enforcement requests...

      2. CommanderGalaxian
        Mushroom

        Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

        Hopefully Musk will be next. That hollowing hypocrit is really starting to grate.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

      A tu quoque/whataboutism fallacy.

      That wrong things happen elsewhere does not mean that investigating this thing is bad, or that the motive for doing so is flawed.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

        Lets see what happens when the next CEO of a platform that does not respond to a French request for user info or removal of (objectionable/subjective/illegal) material lands in France.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

          Elon Musk has the largest private ICBM force on the planet. How hard do you think it would be for SpaceX to drop an 18000Kg mass simulator on The Élysée Palace? Do you think he'd have to do it twice?

          1. Diogenes8080

            Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

            Lift capacity is one thing and CEP is another. Without soft landing, could SpaceX hit the 8th arrondissement?

            Would the current inhabitants of the White House be that upset if the force de frappe double-glazed Texas in response?

          2. Peter2

            Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

            Elon Musk has the largest private ICBM force on the planet. How hard do you think it would be for SpaceX to drop an 18000Kg mass simulator on The Élysée Palace? Do you think he'd have to do it twice?

            France is a nuclear power, a member of the UN security council etc. They are also infamous for not taking shit from personal individuals annoying them as greenpeace can attest.

            I would suggest that the French response to somebody bombing their version of the Whitehouse would probably be at least as robust as the US response would be if a French citizen bombed the Whitehouse. At minimum, extradition and being tossed in jail for life. If he managed to buy the US criminal justice system to avoid that then I would suggest that most bookmakers would refuse to give odds on his not "committing suicide" within a few months of the verdict.

            1. stiine Silver badge
              FAIL

              Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

              Yeah, and French divers will gladly sink any ship that Macron directs them to. Just ask, Greenpeace was it?

              As for French citizens bombing the whitehouse, we don't need them. We let the last of ours to do it out of jail early.

            2. Tilda Rice

              Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

              You missed the "joke" part then Peter.

            3. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

              Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

              "White House". Two words.

          3. Michael Strorm Silver badge

            Meanwhile, away from AC's sub-Marvel-plotline fantasia and back in the real world...

            Only on the Internet could someone post such detached-from-reality dribble like this sad Internet-Tough-Guy-by-proxy, Musk-worshipping fantasy and expect to be taken seriously.

            I mean, others have already pointed out various reasons why this isn't likely- and why even if it was, it wouldn't play out like that politically. But to be honest, even that risks dignifying you and your blatherings with the implication they're worthy of consideration when all they deserve is to be laughed at for how pathetic they are.

          4. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge
            Trollface

            Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

            That is an interesting thought. Another interesting thought is all those billionaires buying up islands.

            Do you suppose Musk might be planning on his own island as well? He could easily make a case for launching from said island. Then all he'd need is a tan Mao suit, a cat and a bottle of Nair.

        2. Ken G Silver badge

          Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

          CEO who is also a French citizen.

          1. Justthefacts Silver badge

            Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

            Is Durov really a “French citizen” though? Turns out that what *actually* happened is that Macron personally intervened to give him French citizenship. As recently as 2021.

            https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-finally-admits-he-gave-telegram-chief-pavel-durov-french-citizenship/

            1. Michael Strorm Silver badge

              Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

              You've posted this three times in the same thread, so I'll post much the same response... Unless Macron forced that citizenship on Durov entirely against his will, then yes, he's a French citizen by choice.

              And whatever one thinks of the other aspects of this case- and whether or not his citizenship had any bearing on the consequences here- your argument is just an example of the pick-and-choose "No True Scotsman" fallacy and a reflection of your blatant partisanship.

              1. Justthefacts Silver badge

                Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

                I don’t dispute that Durov should be subject to French law….that’s a rod he made for his own back. Why would anyone give a shit about some random grifter running a dodgy platform, going to jail? This isn’t about Durov, this is about Macron. And also about how (if at all) one can still run a business in France.

                #1 Quite clearly, Telegram has not magically changed into a cess-pool overnight. It has always been the preferred platform of Russian mafia and other unsavouries. Macron knew this three years ago, when he gifted the citizenship. At a minimum, this shows Macron’s hypocrisy. In a normal democracy, it is a *crime* to personally gift citizenship to people accused of running pedophile-enabling websites, whether or not Durov gave Macron a lot of money. In the U.K. and other democracies, Macron would offer his resignation immediately. In *any* democracy, Macron would be investigated by the police, and barred from the Elysee Palace until that investigation was complete.

                #2 *Why* did Macron gift that citizenship? Just for money? Maybe. But Macron has access to vast coffers of money, he doesn’t need piffling bribes. It’s….a massive coincidence that he just happens to have called in the debt at the precise moment he has cancelled the democratic elections. And in addition, nobody could figure out why he called those elections, it looked like a massive mistake. Was it a mistake? Or has he planned this all along? Did this story actually start three years ago, and his plan was *always* to confiscate the media platform he needed, to operate the coup.

                Maybe it was “only” bribery. Maybe. But it sure doesn’t look like it. It looks exactly like the planned conclusion of a long con.

                1. Michael Strorm Silver badge

                  Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

                  So you're not denying that Durov *is* "really* a French citizen- and hence subject to *all* the consequences of that, whether or not he considered them when he made that choice only thinking about the upsides?

                  But your argument that... Macron ("long") conned him into it, or... something?

                  Is this even about Durov or is it really about Macron? It sounds more like this has to do with your acrimony towards the latter and some presumed conspiracy theory that you've been nursing personally.

        3. O'Reg Inalsin

          Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

          I'm guessing the company was issued a warrant and that was ignored.

      2. Justthefacts Silver badge

        Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

        True. But when the target “just happens to be” Macron’s favourite mouthpiece platform (as Twitter was for Trump). And when, as is widely expected, the court judgement “just happens to be” a confiscation putting the platform in the direct control of the Elysee Palace.

        And when simultaneously Macron has decided not to implement the results of the democratic election, refusing to accept any coalition that does not include his own party, despite that it was the smallest.

        And when Macron arbitrarily decided not to even consider the election result for months “because of the Olympics”…..not a war, or a major natural catastrophe, just a pre-planned sporting event that the government isn’t even responsible for.

        Then maybe it isn’t whatabouttery. Maybe this is exactly what it appears to be: seizing control of the media as the first step of a coup.

        1. heyrick Silver badge

          Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

          There's a lot of reasons to want to give Macron les bras d'honneur, but I don't think this is one of them. Honestly, Macron has far bigger worries right now than this guy. He's too busy trying to cling on to the remnants of the power he once enjoyed after his snap election gamble blew up in his face and he knows he can't leave now or there's a real risk that it will end up with the LFI duking it out with the RN (if you think this government is broken, just wait...), but since everybody hates him and his behaviour since the election has only made that worse...his blocking Lucie Castets was a strategic mistake.

          This arrest is a judicial thing - a French citizen was arrested entering France because he pissed off the French authorities. QED.

    3. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

      France can arrest him because he's a French citizen, in France.

      The CEOs of those other companies would need to be prosecuted by their respective nations, or extradited. I suspect you can guess exactly how an extradition of (eg) Zuckerberg would go.

      Incidentally, that's also why the Russian embassy are being ignored. He's a French citizen, which means it's none of their business.

      1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

        Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

        Unless you have diplomatic immunity then, no matter what your nationality, if you break French law and you're in France then you can be arrested and prosecuted for it. There's bugger all your home country can (legally) do about it.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

          If he were not a French national he would have the right to consular assistance from Russia, however he is a French and Russian national (amongst other nationalities).

          I guess that's the downside of going round buying citizenships as if they were going out of fashion.

          1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

            Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

            I'm not sure how consular assistance would help in such a matter: the Durov brothers are not popular at the Kremlin but Telegram is tolerated as a necessary evil after they failed to block it a few years ago. Another way of looking at this: he's able to discuss things with French authorities safely away from Russian influence, which isn't necessarily the case in Dubai.

            1. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

              Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

              The Russians use it... a lot, their forces use it to communicate, the state uses it to push misinformation... The only issue they have is that they don't (according to Durov) have unfettered access and a backdoor to everything.

            2. Dan 55 Silver badge

              Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

              It seems like he came to some agreement with Russia. It might explain why they're so unhappy about him been detained in France.

              1. collinsl Silver badge

                Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

                Yes, he sold it, and is now Persona Non Grata at the Kremlin because he wouldn't assist the Russian government (I.E. Putin).

                1. Snowy Silver badge
                  Coat

                  Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

                  Part of the reason France is putting the boot it for the west?

                  1. Alan Brown Silver badge

                    Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

                    _IF_ France is putting in the boot, it's with Durov's agreement, He didn't have to leave Dubai and it's fairly obvious he flew to France specifically to be arrested as he was fully aware of the open warrant

            3. collinsl Silver badge

              Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

              The Russians didn't fail to block it, in fact they've met their objective of having the company run by a much more Pro-Kremlin and Pro-Putin bunch, which means they can now exercise much more monitoring and control on the platform in non-end-to-end-encrypted spaces (which Telegram only offers in one-to-one chats and only if you turn it on.

              It's a very useful tool for Russia to have because they can gather all sorts of intelligence from it posted by people in other nations alongside being able to control the narrative in the Russian-focused "stories" or "pages" or whatever they're called in there (not a user so no idea), or to spread doubt, misinformation and disinformation anywhere else they feel like it.

          2. Reality_Cheque

            Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

            I agree with both the facts and the spirit of what you've said, but that isn't the way the game is played. Ask Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.

          3. graeme leggett Silver badge

            Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

            "consular assistance" meaning someone turns up to where they are holding you and says "we'll tell your family where you are. And here's a list of lawyers who speak our language",

      2. Justthefacts Silver badge

        Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

        He’s a French citizen? Is he really? Because it seems that this citizenship was due to the personal intervention of Macron himself in 2021…..

        https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-finally-admits-he-gave-telegram-chief-pavel-durov-french-citizenship/

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

          So he is a French citizen then.

        2. Michael Strorm Silver badge

          Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

          So, are you trying to argue that Durov didn't request French citizenship and that Macron granted it to him against his will?

          Because otherwise (and I don't see any evidence of that) he is indeed very much a French citizen, not merely by an accident of birth but by choice!

          And regardless of whatever else one thinks of his arrest and the behaviour of the French government, your attempt to make a "No True Scotsman"-style issue of it clearly has more to do with your antipathy towards the latter than any legitimate point.

          1. heyrick Silver badge
            Coat

            No True Scotsman

            <reads linked Wikipedia article>

            Oh dear.

            I was born in Glasgow.

            I put sugar on my porridge.

            Mine's the one with the invisibility cloak in the pocket...

            1. Michael Strorm Silver badge

              Re: No True Scotsman

              At the possible risk having a joke whoosh over my head, that's the entire point of the whole "No true Scotsman" thing and that specific example- it's a fallacy.

              I'm Scottish too, and I don't even like porridge full stop- with or without sugar. I'm not sure what *that* says about anything, to be honest.

              1. lukewarmdog

                Re: No True Scotsman

                My Maternal Grandfather made his porridge with water and salt which is the proper Scots way to make it. However he was Irish. Down the Maternal line, it has always been milk and slightly sweetened with sugar. My Dad is a Weetabix guy but then he's from not quite so far up North. Also milk and sugar. Also he's the dour, scrooge-like one, my Scottish rels are all lovely, bubbly and outgoing. #OneTrueSomethingSomething

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

      Telegram is doing nothing that these other platforms are not already doing openly

      Telegram is often quoted as being used by the Russians as a means of spreading propaganda. I wonder if there's an ulterior motive here to force some degree of shutdown of Telegram in order to impact pro-Russia/pro-war material?

      Just a thought, possibly biased by my perception of the platform. Telegram really wasn't on my radar until a couple of years ago, where every time I heard its name it was in the context of a news report about propaganda claims by the Russians, so the two kind of became interlinked in my mind.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

        It's your perception: Telegram has been popular in many circles for well over a decade largely because of its reliability worldwide and ability to handle very large groups. The API is also pretty useful – we use it to run a gatekeeper on one group to reduce the spammers.

    5. Zippy´s Sausage Factory

      Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

      Telegram is doing nothing that these other platforms are not already doing openly

      There's a little thing called evidence, police work, and being able to get hold of the people responsible in order to arrest them.

      Drugs are being sold openly on TikTok, Snapchat, Instagram etc

      Until they can come up with some proof that those drugs are being sold in France, and who's selling them there's nothing they can do to stop it. If those platforms don't hand over the data of who's doing it, you arrest somebody important to make the company take notice.

      So it seems to me your argument is "they're not doing anything about illegal activities because Telegram aren't cooperating, so they shouldn't be arresting the CEO of Telegram for not cooperating"? That... doesn't make any sense.

      1. stiine Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

        Why would anyone not sell expensive, can't-buy-in-stores, drugs to the French, for money?

    6. trindflo Silver badge

      "failing to cooperate"

      Sounds similar to "you play ball with us or you end up with the bat up your a$$". Telegram is used quite a lot by Russia and Ukraine, and has been subjected to significant pressure from Russia to cooperate. The attention seems very selective.

      1. Tilda Rice

        Re: "failing to cooperate"

        Of course the attention is selective. Anyone with half an ounce of common sense know this is about control.

        The media can't refer to Telegram without the phrase "far right" being thrown in. They don't like the information that is found on Telegram as its not under their control/"governance".

        Zuckerburg has been saying this week how much the US government pressured him on what was allowed to be spoken about on C19 during the pandemic.

        If I won't to know something the UK gov / or western media are suppressing I can go to telegram to find the info. Thats exactly what the PTB don't like about Telegram.

        When that 17 yr old killed those girls up north, people on Telegram (and actually WhatsApp) posted his age, parentage (and their country of origin) and nothing about his religion - the "facts" shared were spot on. Yet the media and police warned people of shared info, but the info was correct.

        Look at the nonsense posted in the western media about Putin at the start of the war, he's ill, hes got a body double. His people are against him - bla bla.

        Thats not the impression you get looking at non western media sources, like Telegram.

        In the UK you can't get to RT.COM, yet you can get to the BBC from Russia. If you don't think the west want to moderate to their own liking then you're delusional. This almost certainly isn't an arrest about weed being flogged on a platform. Its almost certainly political.

    7. rg287 Silver badge

      Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

      Drugs are being sold openly on TikTok, Snapchat, Instagram etc So why are the Governments doing nothing to stop them too.

      Because when you report those accounts, they remove the offending material and ban those users.

      Yes, it's whackamole, but an effort is being made.

      Telegram shrugs and says "eh, free speech innit".

      That's the difference. But I appreciate at this point that these questions are open trolling and "just asking questions", not sincere discussion.

      1. Khaptain Silver badge

        Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

        "Because when you report those accounts, they remove the offending material and ban those users."

        And that changes what exactly except for wasting police resources. ( If the police are even involved")

        Here are 2 examples 1 for France and 1 for Switzerland. ( You have to read French or translate using Google)

        France

        Switzerland

        Both of these sites are extremely mainstream media sites. So lets not pretend that no-one knows, or that the police are unaware, or even that they are doing anything about it.. It's rife, everyone knows it, yet no-one seems to care. And I can easily go back and find articles from 2021.

        The governments don't actually care about drugs, or CSAM, it's a scam to lull you into false belief that you are being taken care of. It's never been so rampant.

        The truth is that the Governments are helpless, they have no idea at all how to stop what's happening on the web.

        1. Casca Silver badge

          Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

          So now you whine when they do something? Ok...

    8. Groo The Wanderer

      Re: "It looks like he didn't comply"

      The authorities most certainly don't ignore it, but catching those sites is whack-a-mole until they can find their base of operations. But at least here in Canada, they most definitely announce the large busts that result.

      I, personally, would dearly love to see CEO's and CFOs held personally responsible for the legality of their operations. They are an emphatic problem because they think nothing of breaking the law because they'll just negotiate a "settlement" if they get caught.

      Things won't be cleaned up until that changes. I'll bet Musk and Zuckerborg are watching this case like Hawks. Time to reign in the "wild west" internet.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Viewed by some as an attack on free speech

    Only has “been viewed by some as an attack on free speech”

    I call misinformation on this ;)

    "France is deeply committed to freedom of expression and communication, to innovation, and to the spirit of entrepreneurship. It will remain so" Macron

    This is the same Macron that tried to persuade Durov to have Telegram headquarters moved to France.

    1. Justthefacts Silver badge

      Re: Viewed by some as an attack on free speech

      The same one, yes. And Macron also personally intervened to give him French citizenship, in 2021. And then had him arrested.

      1. Michael Strorm Silver badge

        Re: Viewed by some as an attack on free speech

        I posted this in response to you making the exact same "argument" elsewhere, but I'll happily post it again here... Are you trying to argue that Durov didn't request French citizenship and that Macron granted it to him against his will?

        Because otherwise (and I don't see any evidence of that) he is indeed very much a French citizen, not merely by an accident of birth but by choice!

        And regardless of whatever else one thinks of his arrest and the behaviour of the French government, your attempt to make a "No True Scotsman"-style issue of it clearly has more to do with your antipathy towards the latter than any legitimate point.

  3. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

    Why the fuck does a President have an account on X ?

    You're a fucking President, for fuck's sake, and you have a public office and an official Speaker.

    Make a statement the official way. X is not a governmental organ.

    (does it look like I can't stand Macron, or I can't stand X ? Debate. Hint : it's both)

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

      Because governments still have their PR software wired to Twitter – probably only the last high profile people to as the platform continues to lose relevance outside the conspirasthere™.

      I agree that these services should not be used for government announcements; we have press agencies in an attempt to ensure fair access, but it massages their egos to think they have so many followers, even if most of these are bots.

      As for Macron? I think he's probably better than the last two, and possibly the last three.

      1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

        Re: I think he's probably better than the last two, and possibly the last three

        That is a typically French privilege : we can elect a different disaster every five years.

        1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

          Re: I think he's probably better than the last two, and possibly the last three

          I'm far from a royalist, but looking at the French presidents, especially Macron, means I'd prefer King Charlie over President (call me President Tony) Blair or President (I don't care what you call me, where's the private jet and champers) Johnson.

          1. Richard 12 Silver badge

            Re: I think he's probably better than the last two, and possibly the last three

            It's really important for leaders to have someone who can safely tell them when they're being an idiot.

            That's the true role of the British monarch.

            1. Dan 55 Silver badge

              Re: I think he's probably better than the last two, and possibly the last three

              Do you think it helped the parade of Tory clowns over the past 14 years?

              1. Richard 12 Silver badge

                Re: I think he's probably better than the last two, and possibly the last three

                Look what they did the moment Queen Elizabeth II toddled off.

                It definitely did make a difference. It's not perfect, it's not even good, but it's better than nothing.

                1. Michael Strorm Silver badge

                  Re: I think he's probably better than the last two, and possibly the last three

                  Er, seriously? Boris Johnson, a man blatantly unfit to be Prime Minister, was made PM while she was still very much alive.

                  Liz Truss, a woman even more grossly unfit for the position (*) not only replaced him, but her meeting with Liz Truss where she was made to go through the formality of *asking* her to form a government was pretty much the last thing she did, just two days before she died.

                  If she had any real power, she'd have lopped Truss's head off- "Highlander" style (**)- even then.

                  Joking aside, and even as an anti-monarchist, I'm not criticising the Queen here for doing what she was required to do as a figurehead. I'm criticising the self-reassuring idea that she had any real power or that things somehow got worse *after* she died for that reason.

                  Seriously, Liz fucking Truss.

                  (*) I've said before and I'll say again that- if anything- it's *more* disturbing with hindsight- only after she was kicked out- that Truss ever became PM in the first place. In some ways, the fact that she so comprehensively fouled up *and* quite so quickly may in time be seen as a dodged bullet- a very expensive mistake, to be sure, but one that ultimately made clear to her "fellow" Tories that they had to get rid of her- if only to save their own craven little necks- and stopped her causing any further and more long-lasting damage.

                  (**) Would have been fantastically appropriate given that Truss was summoned to the Queen's Highland retreat at Balmoral. The meeting might then have gone something like this, if you can imagine Queen Elizabeth in the role of Kurgan.

              2. heyrick Silver badge

                Re: I think he's probably better than the last two, and possibly the last three

                Charles said "Back again? Dear, oh dear" to Liz Truss. Now, maybe non-Brits won't understand the British tendency for understatement, but that comment was immediate game over. When you're the PM and your monarch greets you like that, there's just no coming back.

                Unfortunately his mother was a lot more subtle and the average Tory has their head so far up their arse they simply wouldn't pick up what was happening unless it involved floating currency symbols.

                1. Alan Brown Silver badge

                  Re: I think he's probably better than the last two, and possibly the last three

                  In the case of Truss even the floating currency symbols wouldn't provide clues

            2. Peter2

              Re: I think he's probably better than the last two, and possibly the last three

              Also the role of telling politicians "No", and having the politicians responsible to somebody, rather than letting them run completely amok stops them being completely stupid.

            3. stiine Silver badge
              Big Brother

              Re: I think he's probably better than the last two, and possibly the last three

              It used to be their brothers did that for them, considering they were all kings of European countries.

      2. Justthefacts Silver badge

        Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

        President-for-Life Macron, who ignores election results? Are you seriously still going to pretend this isn’t a coup?

        This is a carbon-copy re-run of the fall of 4th Republic, complete with patchwork three-party coalitions, arbitrary prime ministers being proposed by president.

        None of this is new. Macron isn’t new. It’s a very French coup. And those in his patronage group will fete him as a hero, just like de Gaulle “defeated the Algiers coup”.

        1. Casca Silver badge

          Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

          Sure, in your little world...

    2. luminous

      Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

      As much as I wholeheartedly agree with you....

      These days a lot of people, especially the younger generation do not read newspapers nor watch news on TV. How else bar social media would you suggest governments interact with their base?

      1. IGotOut Silver badge

        Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

        And I don't know a single "young person" that uses Twitter.

        1. Zolko Silver badge

          Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

          you don't need to be a Twitter user to get and see Twitter information : the messages are shared and linked on other online platforms.

      2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

        The press is also active on social media, so you can rely on them to disseminate the information that you provide by press release, which also asserts copyright. It's a logical fallacy to think that @LeGrandFromage is either a better source or has a greater reach, but it conveniently fits a narrative that journalists like to push about being close to both source and audience.

        Twitter became popular as it was supposed to disintermediate between celebrity and prole and give a sense of intimacy. Except, that it fairly quickly became clear the teams of PR droids were posting instead of insert_name_here. And then blue tick of "verified" went up for sale to the highest bidder…

      3. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

        That's the key point. If you are the one who actually wants to have the conversation, then the onus is on you to go to the forum where your intended targets hang on.

        That said, your conversation could be little more than posting a link to a reputable source alongside a summary statement. It's not like Macron is going to let millions of people reply on his account and engage in actual conversation with them.

    3. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

      Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

      I totally agree with your point about use of social media rather than more formal/official channels does rather undermine the grandeur of the office from which the communication comes. Look at the orange Twitterer-In-Chief for another example

    4. withQuietEyes

      Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

      Also, "XEETED"

      1. Michael Strorm Silver badge

        Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

        The preferred term is xitted, or xat out.

        1. RedGreen925 Bronze badge

          Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

          "The preferred term is xitted, or xat out."

          I would go with defecated when referring to anything posted on anti-social media or with words attributed to a politician..

          1. spold Silver badge

            Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

            Sxat

        2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

          Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

          Or Xcreted if you are speaking in polite company.

    5. Groo The Wanderer

      Re: "French president Emannuel Macron used his X account"

      Drumpf made the cesspool called "X" relevant to politics. Unfortunately.

  4. Dan 55 Silver badge
    Meh

    EFF

    Not even they believe the nonsense they're saying. Given the list of crimes which Telegram has engaged in or facilitated and their lack of co-operation, it's not overreach, it's the way things should be.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: EFF

      Which crimes has Telegram itself been actively engaged in? And which activities are are not also happening on other platforms? Other platforms have also refused to provide the kind of data governments are seeking.

      I have no objection to Durov being arrested and charged but I think it will be difficut to make any charges about malpractice on the platform stick against him personally. I think this is likely to be little more than fishing expedition to see what kind of information can be provided about, say, potential terrorists in France.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: EFF

        12 criminal charges that Telegram’s founder is facing in Paris

        The last three charges seem merely a failure to follow procedure, but they want to charge him with as much as possible. It's difficult to argue that the other charges are meaningless, even the EFF know that.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: EFF

          Show me a platform that complies with all 12 of those. Looks like France police and courts will be busy.

          1. Casca Silver badge

            Re: EFF

            Show me another company where the boss is french?

            1. FrogsAndChips Silver badge

              Re: EFF

              As someone already stated above, his nationality is irrelevant. Anyone can be arrested on French soil if a French judge has issued a warrant.

          2. Irongut Silver badge

            Re: EFF

            Everyone else was doing it too is not a legal defense.

            Unless you're primary school age.

            1. stiine Silver badge
              Holmes

              Re: EFF

              No, but it can be used to have the prosecutor prosecuted for failure to prosecute Telegram's competitors.

            2. Zolko Silver badge

              Re: EFF

              Everyone else was doing it too is not a legal defense

              of course it is, it's called rule of law : if you're allowed to do something, I'm allowed to do that also. Otherwise you talk about arbitrary decisions, if people can be arrested according their skin color or political views.

              1. heyrick Silver badge

                Re: EFF

                Being allowed to do something is NOT the same as not-yet-been-picked-up-for-the-lawbreaking.

                Therefore, that it happens elsewhere is not a valid excuse because elsewhere doesn't have permission. This guy just happened to refuse the French authorities and then think he could swan into France like nothing was wrong.

                As for "the others", well, there's no point wasting time asking for somebody like Musk to be extradited. Instead, Brazil's judiciary did the next best thing, they unplugged Twitter/X.

        2. rg287 Silver badge

          Re: EFF

          The last three charges seem merely a failure to follow procedure,

          Bit disingenuous.

          The law requires him to make a declaration. Everyone else has, Durov has not. So he can be charged. That's what the law is for, no?

          Or would we equally write off tax evasion as "merely a failure to follow procedure"?

          "You can't prosecute me, it was a simple oversight not to file my taxes! This is quite unfair for a simple procedural issue!".

          Law's the law. He's in the finding out phase of FAAFO.

          1. Spamfast
            FAIL

            Re: EFF

            "You can't prosecute me, it was a simple oversight not to file my taxes! This is quite unfair for a simple procedural issue!"

            If you're rich enough in the UK, that's exactly what happens. There are many documented cases of HMRC 'coming to an arrangement' with tax evaders to pay back a, usually small, percentage of what they've "mistakenly" overlooked in return for not being prosecuted.

            If you owe them ten million, it's unlikely you'll be prosecuted. If you owe them two thousand, you may get a custodial sentence.

            1. heyrick Silver badge

              Re: EFF

              Because if you owe them ten million, that implies that somewhere you may well have ten million, which means you could drop a few million on serious legal wranglings. The tax office don't want that, they barely have a functional budget never mind money for lawyering. That's why they'll go after two grand, people with smaller sums won't have the resources to tie them in knots in court.

        3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: EFF

          I know that the French have run up some fairly restrictive laws regarding encryption but these are failing meaningless given existing European legislation and rulings from the ECJ. As for the conspiracy and complicity charges: the prosecutor will have to prove this and that's a high. Plea bargains don't exist so running up a large list of charges in the hope that some will stick, or at least give you something to trade with, won't help.

          Nope, it's a fishing expedition.

          1. Dan 55 Silver badge

            Re: EFF

            It couldn't be easier to prove, Telegram hosts the dodgy content on their own servers and makes it available to users in unencrypted form and it also takes a commission from payment bots.

            1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

              Re: EFF

              …on servers you can't sequestrate to demonstrate the truth of your assertion?

              We'll see how this plays out.

      2. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

        Re: EFF

        So who should get the blame ?

        The guy who gets all the millions or the toilet cleaner ?

    2. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: EFF

      "list of crimes".....

      What we've got is an alphabet soup of vague nastiness, all stuff deserving of our "Two Minutes' Hate" but nothing at all specific. Just for good measure he's being "investigated for child abuse" so he's obviously a Very Bad Person (being a billionaire also makes him a target, of course).

      What's particularly worrying is the number of people who seem perfectly OK with this. I'd like to believe they're all bots but I sure they're not, they're merely people who've been very well trained. I don't think there's any way to reach them by rational argument, we'll just have to wait for the day that they find themselves in Kafka-land.

      What I can't figure out is why Durov thought he could go to France and not have legal problems. I know he's not personally committed any crime but these days that's purely an optional extra.

      1. Groo The Wanderer

        Re: EFF

        The "hate" for pedophiles, child pornographers, and peddlers of life threatening chemicals does indeed run deep. But I think you'll find the hatred of such degenerates lasts considerably longer than "two minutes."

      2. Casca Silver badge

        Re: EFF

        Oh, so you know him personally? Sure...

        1. Groo The Wanderer

          Re: EFF

          Nothing like blind, stubborn denial of what they're involved in. Yes, you had best close up your drug peddling operation.

    3. Yes Me Silver badge
      Headmaster

      Re: EFF

      So you think that providing end-to-end encryption for users is a crime? If so, there are an awful lot of criminals around...

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I’m confused

    “drug trafficking, cyber bullying, organized crime, distribution of child sexual abuse material, and failing to cooperate with police”

    Isn’t that the entire point of these services?

    1. stiine Silver badge

      Re: I’m confused

      They're the whole point of planet earth...

    2. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: I’m confused

      Telegram used to be the darling of the CIA because it was the primary medium for organizing color revolutions and the like. (I think the entire Hong Kong student protest a few years back used it, for example.)

  6. anthonyhegedus Silver badge

    A good start

    This is a long time coming. Take a thought experiment: If someone set up a physical wall where people could put up phone numbers of drug traffickers, places to obtain pornography including minors etc, and even pictures themselves. and they refused to tidy up the stuff that went on the wall, they'd be arrested.

    This is the same thing. These people are making millions from adverts on these sites, and basically profiting off illegal things. It's about time they were stopped, regulated and put in their place.

    As for Telegram itself, I've had it for a few years. All I've ever seen on it is adverts for sex services and the like. I've just got to work out how to eliminate my account on it and remove the app. I'll do the same for Signal probably.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It is unclear if Israel had a role in Durov’s detention in Paris on Saturday.

    Last week, Haaretz reported that “Telegram has proved a massive challenge for Israel since the start of the war.”

    This includes sensitive data leaks from Israel acquired by hackers and released on Telegram channels. "

    https://en.mehrnews.com/news/220338/Telegram-CEO-arrested-in-France-at-Israel-request-Media

    https://thecradle.co/articles-id/26597

    1. Groo The Wanderer

      Bigots not welcome.

  8. Tron Silver badge

    Risk assessment

    It would be wise to suspend all social media, messaging and e-mail accounts from operating in France until this pans out, or your staff might be next.

    1. Casca Silver badge

      Re: Risk assessment

      Yea, if your company refuse to cooperate with the law and gives them the finger...

    2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: Risk assessment

      But what if you do that and the French manage without you?

  9. Sparkus

    I for one hope

    that this sets a much-needed global precedent for responsibility and accountability.

    This and insurance companies refusing to write cover for CxO suite malfeasance and stupidity.........

  10. Omnipresent Silver badge

    social distortion

    being that the US has announced it is going after "x" for having russian ties (why does putin still have an x account?), maybe we should all just recognize by now that putin and his cronies have been using social media to spy and sow dissension in society since about 2012. How about we recognize that NONE OF IT IS REAL already. It was the russians and chinese that owned california the whole time.

  11. Marty McFly Silver badge
    Coffee/keyboard

    "It is in no way a political decision."

    LOL! Everything in France is political!

    Great excuse to use this icon, thanks!

  12. biddibiddibiddibiddi Bronze badge

    On the one hand, everything other than "failure to comply" seems like an unenforceable charge since he can't control the content and there aren't any laws that say his product must give him the ability to control it. On the other hand, it is nice to see direct action with real consequences other than a small fine against the high-level person of any corporation who makes the decisions and is ultimately responsible for their product and any harms it causes.

    1. nijam Silver badge

      > ... real consequences other than a small fine against the high-level person ... who makes the decisions and is ultimately responsible for their product and any harms it causes

      Wow... that covers every politician in the world! Excellent.

  13. Pete 2 Silver badge

    Nothing focuses the mind ...

    ... like the prospect of time in the slammer

    Fines only punish a company's shareholders (admittedly, some employees could well be affected by this). But are far too removed from the decision makers to act as much of a deterrent.

    I do hope this guy develops a taste for porridge. Not so much because he is more culpable than any other social media CEO, but pour encourager les autres

  14. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

    End-to-end encryption

    The fact that Telegram isn't E2EE encrypted makes him liable for any wrongdoing on the platform. If Telegram ignores all pleas from LEA (law enforcement agencies) to remove stuff or handover information on individuals the CEO can be held accountable.

    The fact that he holds multiple passports will work against him in this case because Russia cannot legally come to his aid. France can claim he's a French citizen and can therefore by tried as such.

    I also believe Russia is trolling because I don't for a second believe Telegram is being used for confidential military communications. They're just out to throw stones into our pond whenever they can.

  15. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

    No Section 230 in France?

    Nothing to protect service providers from the liability for content provided by users? The moderation/restriction "good faith" requirement wouldn't seem to work as well for a one-to-one messaging service as for a public messaging board. Where many eyes can easily moderate or flag bad stuff. At any rate, French law may not resemble US legislation. So the Good Samaritan immunity may not apply, or apply differently.

  16. martinusher Silver badge

    At what point does a block of binary data become something illegal?

    Telegram, a end to end encrypted messaging system that's actually much loved (and used by) our CIA since it helps dissidents communicate, is really in the business of transporting blocks of data from A to B (it also does one to many). Its possible that those blocks of data include illegal content in some jurisdictions, actions such as organizing protests against the Hong Kong government or proposing the transfer of illegal material (drugs, porn, propaganda etc.) But to the Internet its just meaningless blocks of data.

    The only part that Telegram has to play in any actual messaging is ensuring that the sender and recipient have a high degree of confidence that its they that's communicating and facilitating their exchange of cryptographic keys (again, random sequences of numbers, not something specifically labelled 'key'). This is something we all spend a lot of thought on since when we communicate with a bank we want it to be our bank, for example, and not some random credential stealer who's going to siphon off funds to a third party. This is where things might get a bit murky since banks are required to notify governments of our activities, monitoring them for illegal activity (which used to be just stuff like buying drugs but these days its increasingly whether we're trading with a sanctioned entity, directly or indirectly). Regardless, its still only the two parties a communication that are involved, the facilitator being just the conduit for the messages between them.

    I can't help feeling that Telegram has stumbled across some mechanism to not just make traffic truly confidential but also make it useless for traffic analysis. Must be very frustrating for spies. The problem, though, is that Telegram is ultimately just a collection of algorithms -- if the French or their sponsors start making too much of a nuisance of themselves then the whole thing could just end up being open sourced.

  17. spold Silver badge
    Childcatcher

    Lettuce

    Lettuce descend into the age old arguments about end-to-end encryption... <sigh> reference to the 10,000+ comments on here regarding the subject already espoused previously. Please refer to the icon, your bank, and your backdoor. No, not that, vicar.

    [Note to thickies, no, I am not advocating backdooring any encryption]

  18. harrys Bronze badge

    like everything else .... follow the money... and with telegram its very hard to follow the money... its very opaque, ive tried!

    telegram keeps professing its love of free speech and standing up to russian authorities... classic orwellian doublespeak, like something straight out of animal farm!

    contrast them to signal... they recently bought out a warts and all statement about how they operate, makes fascinating reading on the difficulties of running a social media platform and making it financially viable

    personally pissed of he got bail, but happy its finally happened as the tech ceo's are hubristic to the point of it being farcical now

    zukcerman just revealed a blue statue of his wife ... its the end of satire man.... though satire probably ended when trump came to power :)

    PS Every time i see a trump rally it reminds me of the ex porn stars, now president, rallies in Idiocracy... so perhaps satire is not dead after all, as its gives me a chuckle every time i make the comparison

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    As William Burroughs Pointed Out.............

    Quote: "The paranoid is a person who knows a little of what is going on."

    (1) Arrest

    (2) Secret deal between Telegraph and the EU to implement a better backdoor

    (3) "Of course they are harassing me....because I'm a good guy!"

    (4) Walks!!!.......

    So....It really is possible to be on both sides of the street at the same time!!!! Nothing ever changes!!!

  20. Spamfast
    Meh

    Don't shoot the messenger.

    While I agree that the high-ups in Telegram should be held responsible for vetting material on shared forums on their platform, the argument that because normal private Telegram chats are not end-to-end encrypted then the CEO should be held responsible for everything that is communicated within them is ridiculous.

    The public switched telephone network has never been encrypted at all. Maybe the CEO of British Telecom should be arrested every time a crook fesses up that he called his mate to organize a burglary?

    The postal system is not end to end encrypted. Maybe Royal Mail should steam all those letters open and check to see what people are writing to their grandmas?

    I do wish Telegram would follow the pack and E2EE all private chats to be done with it but just because they are briefly unencrypted on a server in Dubai or wherever doesn't make the argument for hanging the virtual postman or his boss.

    1. rg287 Silver badge

      Re: Don't shoot the messenger.

      The public switched telephone network has never been encrypted at all. Maybe the CEO of British Telecom should be arrested every time a crook fesses up that he called his mate to organize a burglary?

      The postal system is not end to end encrypted. Maybe Royal Mail should steam all those letters open and check to see what people are writing to their grandmas?

      Strawman.

      The CEO of BT would face repercussions if they ignored lawful requests for intercept or assistance under RIPA/Communications Act/IPA. So would management at Royal Mail (who maintain a capability to open and reseal packages, including some "tamper-proof" packaging).

      Durov hasn't been arrested for not being able to proactively report every unlawful act on his platform. He's been arrested for making no attempt whatsoever to moderate activity, and for refusing to cooperate with lawful requests under French law.

  21. aelfheld

    "The arrest of the president of Telegram on French soil took place as part of an ongoing judicial investigation. It is in no way a political decision. It is up to the judges to rule on the matter."

    "Also, I have some Arizona coastline for sale, cheap."

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    No, they haven't.

    > French police have laid multiple charges

    They have not. French police does not usually press charges (the procurateur does), and in this particular instance they haven't presented an accusation either. Some five person government agency I'd never heard of are behind the accusation to this one and only person.

    I did not continue reading the article given that it fails to get basic facts right, God knows what other false statements are made later in the text. Caveat lector.

    1. Casca Silver badge

      Re: No, they haven't.

      Yea, we really should trust an AC commentard...sure...

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Meanwhile on Mastodon…

    Just saying.

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