back to article SETI boldly looks beyond the Milky Way in latest alien hunt

Looking for life in the Milky Way is so 20th century – today's alien-hunters are going intergalactic to look for signs of alien intelligence. Radio astronomer Chenoa Tremblay of the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) Institute and astrophysicist Steven Tingay of the International Centre for Radio Astronomy …

  1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

    I mentioned something like this...

    a while back, but from the very general nature of the comments, I don't think that they are looking for what I would look for... waste heat.

    In particular, a galaxy with a civilization in the 2.3-2.5 range would, by definition, have a tremendous portion of its energy being captured in one section, but not in another. A large portion of the captured energy would be re-released as waste heat.

    So, if you have, in one part of a galaxy, a substantial and varying red shift compared to others, especially if the lines were light on the absorption lines associated with stars, that would be worth looking at closely.

    Unless you go for the Schlock Mercenary, approach, and assume that they are all a bunch of scaredy-cats & run out of the galaxy as fast as they can to avoid detection...

    1. DS999 Silver badge

      Re: I mentioned something like this...

      Unless you go for the Schlock Mercenary, approach, and assume that they are all a bunch of scaredy-cats & run out of the galaxy as fast as they can

      Run out of the galaxy? To where? Intergalactic space, or especially a great void between superclusters might be a good place to hide, but there's not a lot of energy to be found unless you've figured out how to exploit zero point energy or drag a good sized black hole with you to extract energy from its frame dragging.

      If you can exploit the energy of a good chunk of stars in an entire galaxy, you don't have to scared of anyone. In that case its more likely YOU'RE the one anyone else in that galaxy is scared of, and perhaps with historical good reason - i.e. if intelligent starfaring life is common enough for at least a dozen to spring up in the same galaxy at the same time, they are inevitably going to encounter each other at some point.

      If two such civilizations are in the process of building a network of Dyson swarms around stars and expanding their civilization's reach, they either have to come to an agreement or one may choose to eliminate the other. Perhaps they may consider one who has spread to only a handful of star systems as not worth the bother so long as they don't try to expand beyond the "reservation" set aside for them.

      1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

        Re: I mentioned something like this...

        In Schlock Mercenary, they tended to run their parent star out, said star was (mostly) encased in a Dyson sphere. Which leads to the next point. Howard fantasizes that by the time civilizations reach 2.0, they conclude that they probably are NOT the big dog in the galaxy, and even if they are, that they cannot safely assume that they will remain so. The decision to flee, then, is based on their expectation that there is either a 2.1 around, or a 1.95, and they don't want to tangle with either. Of course, if everyone comes to the same conclusion (and the logic that leads to it is pretty strong), then each civilization decides it wants out before they actually reach 2.0, but also that it is extremely difficult to do so until they do. The end result is a bunch of civilizations happy to stagnate at 2.0 rather than risk being exterminated, and no one actually reaches even 2.1.

        Of course, there are a lot of different ways that this might play out in practice, but it is a valid answer to the question, "Where is everybody?"

        1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

          Re: I mentioned something like this...

          Maybe civilizations that advanced arnt as warlike as the tribes we have on this rock.

          Maybe when meeting another bunch they are all like "Hello wow nice to meet you , and then seamlessly merge into the same civilization , rather than even bothering to maintain separate identities and peaceful borders and such .

      2. Paul Kinsler

        Re: how to exploit zero point energy

        I know this is at a tangent to your argument, but you can't exploit zero point energy, because it doesn't exist.

        The idea only results from a simplistic approximation to quantum mechanics, being essentially a "hidden variable" sort of thing, and is very probably is more useful to SF writers than it is to physicists.

        1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

          Re: how to exploit zero point energy

          I had always figured that a magnetic monopole could be used for something like that. Not a physicist here (obviously--I'm sure you snickered at my details above), so I don't know if magnetic monopoles are still considers a reasonable possibility or not.

        2. DJO Silver badge

          Re: how to exploit zero point energy

          you can't exploit zero point energy, because it doesn't exist.

          OK, then how does the Casimir effect work?

          1. Paul Kinsler

            Re: OK, then how does the Casimir effect work?

            It's actually a density-of-states effect. However, assuming a ZPE does make for a nice simple derivation that happens to give the same answer as a proper calculation (ZPE is like that - often works brilliantly, except when it doesn't ... and so you are only really sure a ZPE-based derivation is right if you (also) do it rigorously).

        3. KittenHuffer Silver badge
          Boffin

          Re: how to exploit zero point energy

          Technically it could exist, if what we currently see as the minimum vacuum energy is actually a false minimum.

          The problem with this is that to extract the energy down to the true minimum you would probably change the nature of the Universe, in a sphere expanding at the speed of light, where everything that we see would be destroyed in a flash of released energy.

          https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/universe-false-vacuum/

          1. Belperite

            Re: how to exploit zero point energy

            Indeed, even Rodney McKay knew to be careful with this stuff but only after destroying 5/6 of a star system.

            1. CAPS LOCK

              Re: how to exploit zero point energy

              It was uninhabited...

          2. DS999 Silver badge

            Re: how to exploit zero point energy

            The problem with this is that to extract the energy down to the true minimum you would probably change the nature of the Universe, in a sphere expanding at the speed of light

            Perhaps. Or if the vacuum energy is related in some way to dark energy / the expansion of the universe, maybe you simply stop space from expanding in the area where you are extracting that energy.

            I know the idea of zero point energy is seen as silly, but if we're talking about a civilization thousands to millions of years more advanced than us, you'd hope by the time we reach that age we'll have figured out a few of the things we thought we knew were wrong. Just like when Einstein corrected Newton, and others corrected Einstein about quantum mechanics. If we've got everything pretty well figured out now, physics will be a rather boring field going forward.

            1. Richard 12 Silver badge

              Re: how to exploit zero point energy

              We know our best theories are wrong. That's why Physics is still exciting.

              We have one set of theories that works extremely well at very small scales and high energies, and another that works extremely well at much longer scales and lower energies. But neither works at both, and they barely overlap.

              1. DS999 Silver badge

                Re: how to exploit zero point energy

                But that's a case where we know we're wrong. I'm talking about something where we're pretty damn sure we're right, but it turns out our confidence was misplaced and in fact we're wrong. Maybe just for a corner case, but if its the right corner...

    2. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Re: A large portion of the captured energy would be re-released as waste heat

      You don't know that. You have no idea what technology they have. Maybe they have perfected room-temperature superconductors. Maybe they have some other technique.

      You are drawing conclusions based on our level of tech. That is a mistake.

      1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

        Re: A large portion of the captured energy would be re-released as waste heat

        It is correct that I am assuming that they have not figured a way around the Second Law of Thermodynamics. But the problem is, you have to make SOME assumptions in order to search at all. This is the one that makes sense to me.

        1. MyffyW Silver badge

          Re: A large portion of the captured energy would be re-released as waste heat

          "Bart, in this house we obey the second law of thermodynamics"

          1. Claptrap314 Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: A large portion of the captured energy would be re-released as waste heat

            I regret that I only have one up boat. And this ------------------------------------------------------------------>

      2. Filippo Silver badge

        Re: A large portion of the captured energy would be re-released as waste heat

        Sort of. It's not a conclusion based on our level of tech; it's a conclusion based on our understanding of physics. From what we know of thermodynamics, having at least some waste heat is inevitable, regardless of how good your tech is.

        It could well be that our understanding of thermodynamics is fundamentally flawed, but if we make that assumption, then we have no way to make any hypothesis at all. If that is the case, then anything is possible, everything could be illusory, and nothing is worth investigating. It's not impossible, but it's not a useful line of reasoning.

      3. ThatOne Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: A large portion of the captured energy would be re-released as waste heat

        > You are drawing conclusions based on our level of tech. That is a mistake.

        Definitely.

        Also, please define "alien intelligence". Aliens could be highly intelligent, with a thriving culture, yet not have any technology comparable to ours. This discussion reminds me of this, quite famous xkcd...

        1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

          Re: A large portion of the captured energy would be re-released as waste heat

          I'm not talking about technology. I'm talking about physics. If the Second Law of Thermodynamics holds, then massive civilization requires massive energies redirected. That is the entire point of the Kardashev scale: it defines technological advancement by the amount of energy being harnessed.

          And for the purposes of detecting a civilization of any kind, this really is the measure that makes sense--explicitly because this is the one that we can use to make a detection.

          I am in no way suggesting that some sort of long-lived, low metabolic interstellar civilization cannot exist. I'm saying that I personally am at a loss to imagine how to detect it. Which is why I explicitly stated that I was proposing what I personally think would be a good way to detect a 2.3-2.5 civilization.

          If you have any ideas about detecting a civilization millions or tens of millions of light years away that is not consuming huge amounts of energy, I would love to year them.

          1. ThatOne Silver badge

            Re: A large portion of the captured energy would be re-released as waste heat

            No idea, but my point was that considering technology = civilization = proof of intelligent life is a very anthropocentric fallacy. They should rechristen SETI from "Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence" to "Search for Wasteful Technologies" (SWAT?), or some such.

            "Extraterrestrial intelligence" can certainly exist outside the typical human quirk of massive, ever-increasing consumption of energy and goods. Yes, yes, I know, many will say "Inconceivable! That's how we do things, we are the best, so everybody who is any good has to be doing the same. QED."

    3. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

      Re: I mentioned something like this...

      I don't think that they are looking for what I would look for... waste heat.

      Makes sense, though. The last thing we need is finding more politicians..

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Silly Earthlings

    You'll never find us that way.

  3. Evil Auditor Silver badge

    Why would an advanced civilisation use that amount of energy to harvest a whole star let alone a galaxy?

    1. Sceptic Tank Silver badge
      Alien

      Data centers for their generative AI?

      1. Evil Auditor Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Brilliant! But surely, you mean glorified autocomplete.

        Had they developed generative AI, it would certainly advice them to keep a low profile not to attract any earthlings.

        1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

          But without having first encountered the cuddly peaceful earth dwelling humans, how would the AI determine they should avoid them?

    2. Filippo Silver badge

      Plenty of examples in sci-fi.

      Maybe it's a requirement for FTL travel. All our vague ideas for it are really high-energy.

      Maybe their population count has just that many zeroes. Exponential growths are like that.

      Maybe their galaxy is headed towards a merger with another one in a hundred billion years or so, and they've figured out that would be catastrophic, and they want to change its course. After all, civilizations with no ability to plan long-term don't get to climb the Kardashev scale.

      Maybe all of the above.

      1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
        Joke

        After all, civilizations with no ability to plan long-term don't get to climb the Kardashev scale.

        No, they get to climb the Kardashian scale

  4. Sceptic Tank Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Pity I'm not smart enough for academia

    So people actually get paid for this worthless exercise?

    1. Filippo Silver badge

      Re: Pity I'm not smart enough for academia

      Well, remember that people routinely get paid for exercises that are not only worthless, but actively destructive. Often a lot more than academia, too.

    2. Roj Blake Silver badge

      Re: Pity I'm not smart enough for academia

      Yes, but probably not as much as you get for doing whatever it is you do.

      Academic salaries are generally on the low side.

    3. MichaelGordon

      Re: Pity I'm not smart enough for academia

      It's fairly low-cost - all the data had already been gathered for other purposes - and would have a massive impact in the unlikely event that it found something, so why not?

  5. Efer Brick

    Klimgons on the starboard bow

    It's life Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it.

    There's Klingons on the starboard bow

    1. Roj Blake Silver badge

      Re: Klimgons on the starboard bow

      It's worse than that, he's dead, Jim, dead, Jim, dead, Jim;

      It's worse than that, he's dead, Jim, dead, Jim, dead

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Klimgons on the starboard bow

        Thanks you two, now I have that earworm again in my head for the next few days.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Better chances finding alien life

    Try the Northern line after 11pm on a Friday…

  7. Rafael #872397
    Devil

    Earth is not even a Type 1. Sad.

    Make Earth Great Again! Build a wall around it!

    (where's the icon for "insane clown"?)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Earth is not even a Type 1. Sad.

      You forgot to mention the aliens should pay for that wall.

  8. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Does it mean that they've finally given up on our own galaxy?

    The fact that we're here, on the only planet we've looked at closely, seems to lead people to believe that life must not only exist elsewhere as well but that it's actually common. Considered in the abstract, assembling the necessary subsystems for the simplest living organism by inorganic means seems so unlikely that you wouldn't expect life to exist at all. The fact that it did happen once doesn't raise the odds that it has happened elsewhere.

    1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

      Math can be really counter-intuitive sometimes. This is one of them. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_statistics). As it turns out, the different between one and zero profoundly affects our estimate of the probabilities, because without one example, we cannot eliminate the possibility that the chance of something happening at all is zero for reasons we don't yet understand.

      But we've not given up on our own galaxy. It's just that we can only look at a small part of our galaxy for most of what has been done--it's a small data set. Personally, I think that it would be a lot easier to detect a 2.3 in a nearby galaxy than on in our own, because I believe that the energy harnessing itself is likely to be detectable. (Hey--why did that start just kinda fade out over the course of a decade? Oh, look! It's happening to that star too!)

      Personally, I'm very much of the "don't answer" school regarding first contact. The Three Laws (of thermodynamics) don't make for friendly neighbors. To me, the in-galaxy search for life is comparable to searching for incoming asteroids. Just way, way too early to actually matter, however. It would be important for policy makers, however, as we pass 1.7. (We're currently ~0.7, btw.)

  9. Tessier-Ashpool

    There are no galactic civilisations

    I find it rather quaint to imagine that there are creatures zipping around in space and living the sort of humdrum lives we live on the Earth.

    No. That's not going to happen. When a civilisation hits a technological explosion, it's like hitting a brick wall. Millions of years of evolution and then BANG. After that, the dominant life on the planet will be AI. The machines will happily live using little power. Biological sentient creatures will die off, a result of their messing about with the environment. The AIs will spend a few thousand years tidying up the mess left behind by the biologicals.

    And they won't be flying around in spaceships. When you have an IQ of 10,000, you basically know all there is to know and can work everything out from first principles.

  10. chivo243 Silver badge
    Pint

    SETI

    I remember a colleague, he had the best rig in the office, used to run the SETI program. Is it still a thing?

    1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Alien

      Re: SETI

      SETI@home stopped sending out new work on 31st March 2020...

      https://www.theregister.com/2020/03/04/seti_at_home_halt/

  11. Homo.Sapien.Floridanus

    Meanwhile on a far away planet…

    Vulcan Scientist: We have been monitoring radio waves from a planet whose inhabitants call themselves earthlings and have developed a communications medium to unite all peoples and races, they call it the Internet. Logic dictates that this is a form of advanced intelligence and merits a closer examination for potential first contact.

    Vulcan Council: Let us witness this so called Internet.

    [Speaker Playing]

    Meow-meow-meow-mi-mi-mi-mi-meow-meow-meow-mi-mi-mi-meow…

    Vulcan Council: Shut it off! Get back to us when they develop warp technology.

  12. harrys Bronze badge

    The hubris of humans has no bounds .... were just a blip in time, insignificant and fleeting

    Search for aliens .... just religion trying to sneek in through the back door i say

    Be on your guard, just chillax, be a good materialist, and read up on some epicurian ideas, or if feeling a bit naughty.... some diogenese :)

    1. Blue Pumpkin
      Coat

      A right barrel of laughs …

  13. -maniax-

    Earth is not even a Type 1

    Shouldn't that be "Mankind is not even a Type 1"?

    I doubt the Earth currently has or ever will have any plans relating to energy use

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