A last look at the Living Computers museum before collection heads to auction

The Living Computers museum's tech collection is set for auction. Retired Microsoft engineer Dave Plummer took a last look and mused on the theme of donor's remorse. Plummer, who recently built himself a PDP-11 out of spare parts, noted that, despite the "abundance" of billionaires in the Seattle area who owe a substantial …

[Anonymous Coward]

A story of things that didn't happen

So there's this really rich guy who gathered a bunch of (historically important! quaint! likable! fun! educational! all that and more!) computer junk and called it a museum.

What he didn't do was spin it off to be its own legal person, add an endowment, and gather a bunch of interested people to man the board.

So it really was a somewhat grandiosely named hobby project and whoever's running the estate happens to not share that hobby. Oh well.

Shouldn't be too hard for someone in the area to start a crowdfunding campaign to belatedly set up and fund that legal entity. Then make a package deal with the estate for a friendly price, saving them the trouble of the auction and keeping (perhaps even expanding, in time) the collection. Ping some of those friendly neighbourhood tech billionaires while at it.

But it won't happen. Because that's how this story goes. Now someone pray tell why this is so.

Or compare and contrast with the cray-cyber.org guys. That one runs on less money, but more enthousiastic people.

[keithpeter]

Re: A story of things that didn't happen

"someone in the area"

This has been going on for some time I think so perhaps there just isn't that much interest?

[Plest]

Re: A story of things that didn't happen

You nailed it perfectly and that's a warning that your passion is most likely not going to be one that your heirs will share.

I have shot thousands of photos over the last 30+ years, so many great memories, competition winning shots and firsts like my first ever picture sale or first sold print, but while my daughter knows what it means to me she doesn't share my passion for photography. I've said that I will back it all up on two disks and all i ask is that she just keeps them safe after I die. Doens't have to do anything with them, just keep them safe in case her kids or their kids ever want to see what great-great grandad did.

The reason is that I have photos my great-great-great grandfather shot about 130 years ago when he worked for the Francis Frith agency, I have 2 large books with 400 original 14" prints of landscapes circa 1885 and they're just amazing and I've been able to make a connection on a personal level to someone I'm related to, on a subject we share but we will never be able to directly share experiences.

History and things mean a lot to people, yes computers are just lumps of metal and plastic but I still remember so many good times working hte ICL System 25 I cut my teeth on 30+ years ago now, people I will never see again but whom changed my life.

[heyrick]

Re: A story of things that didn't happen

I wouldn't imagine your discs would be readable in 130 years, either due to failure or simply nothing exists that can read them without getting into big expense.

A few months ago I discovered some photos, and negatives, that my mother took before I was born (including her with a midsection lump that was, well, entirely my fault). Meanwhile files I've made more recently have been lost to time, media failure, or the simple fact that I just don't own a 5.25" floppy drive any more. In fact, the only functional disc drive I have is one of those USB things that can only read FAT. Special alternatives do exist, but I don't think my old crap justifies the cost...

You know what might be an idea for the future is a service that can transfer digital photographs to film. Does such a thing exist? That way you could pick, say, your favourite hundred photos and get them put on film for the long term storage, knowing that they'll probably fare better than the discs...

[0laf]

Re: A story of things that didn't happen

The poster is very right about the discs. I recently tried to use some recordable CDs and DVDs I found at the back of a drawer..

They were boxed and had been stored in reasonable conditions. Some were Woolworths branded (Woolworths went bust in the UK in 2008 so these disks were at least 16yr old and likely closer to 20).

All were duds.

Although saying that I have some even older written CDRs that can still be read.

I think generally 10-25yr is thought to be the life of a home burnable disk unless you've forked out for archive versions. I think they were supposed to be good for 100yr.

[Gene Cash]

Re: A story of things that didn't happen

> I have shot thousands of photos over the last 30+ years

There's been a few talented motorsports photographers that have passed away recently.

Everybody's interested in their photos, but there's no context for most of them. Who are these people? Which race is this? When was this taken? Was there an interesting story behind this? Why is Eddie Lawson standing next to a Ducati?

It's like there's quite a few pictures of my grandparents having a night out on the town, but THIS one is special because it's their first date.

(I have been unable to find a image manager that lets you attach text to images, so I whipped one out in Python. It creates and edits a ,txt file of the same name as the image so I'm not doing some one-off yet-another-format. All the pictures have been renamed from the random camera shit to something like "image-2023-07-13+11-45-59.jpg" to at least keep the time it was taken)

Edit: Me? Except for my high school yearbooks, I have ONE picture of me before I was 45... that's it!

[doublelayer]

Re: A story of things that didn't happen

I would think that storing the data in Exif, which has a comments field, might be more reliable because it would then stay with the image file and could be used in automated sorting. No need to invent a new format because most of them already have support for that. Often, it's used to dump random data from the camera manufacturer, but you can put it to better use.

[swm]

I think this is a shame. As we move from written records to ephemeral computer records a lot of history will disappear in 100 years. You can't even read the old media because standards have changed and none of the current stuff will read the old media.

My thesis is on 9-track magnetic tape. I doubt I will ever be able to read it.

There are still computer museums around with working computers.

[MachDiamond]

"My thesis is on 9-track magnetic tape. I doubt I will ever be able to read it."

But...... if you have it printed on .... paper...... you'd still be able to read it. You know, that flat stuff pounded from trees that goes back before grandad soiled his first nappy. The predecessors to paper are also still legible in some cases although, some are still effectively encrypted since the language used fell out of of popularity or some rival group killed everybody with the keys. If there is ever some catastrophe, the starting point of knowledge will reset by at least one hundred years.

After reading Lucifer's Hammer, I started grabbing old formularies and how-to books from long ago. The trick is having another book that translates the old words for chemicals and minerals into modern naming conventions. It's also worth knowing about the products we use today. The difference between a basic shampoo and dish soap is the coloring and scent for the most part. Only the packing and marketing change to convince you to have more on hand than you might need. You might otherwise buy a white barrel full of "liquid soap" with a blue strip around once every year or so and save big money.

[Flocke Kroes]

Re: If you have it printed on paper

Depends on the paper. Cheap printer paper will begin to crumble after about 5 years. If you want something that lasts better quality paper is available from artist supply shops. Long term preservation always involves transferring before the medium expires or becomes thoroughly superseded tech.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If you have it printed on paper

Yes, a former colleague was involved with preservation of old medical records. Apparently products can only be sold while the original study date that led to the decision that they're safe remains available. He had quite a collection of old tape and disc readers plus quite a lot of paper notes, most on the cheapest possible paper of the day. In the case of one well known product launched in the 1930's those were degrading rapidly. His office was an old salt mine in Wales.

[MachDiamond]

Re: If you have it printed on paper

"Depends on the paper."

These days it does depend a lot on the quality of the paper. Many years ago there wasn't the same level of chemical use in the paper making process.

[Robin]

But...... if you have it printed on .... paper...... you'd still be able to read it. You know, that flat stuff pounded from trees that goes back before grandad soiled his first nappy.

That's a useful definition of what paper is, thanks.

Not having things on paper until it's too late is easily done. The 22-year old version of me for example, when handing in my completed dissertation, didn't consider it worthy spending another £X on printing it out, when there was beer to drink and shopping to buy. Sad but true. I would probably have justified it to myself using the excuse that I had it on 3.5" disk anyway, so could do it another time. That other time never came and there it still sits, on the disk. So I completely sympathise with the "stuck on 9-track tape" commenter above.

[doublelayer]

Except that you could have transferred it off that disk to something else at many times, including now if you still had the disk. Then, you could either print it out or just keep transferring the file from medium to medium as you updated your backups. I have files from decades ago that are on modern hardware because it's 135 kB, so no need to clean it out when transferring backups from the small disks to the larger disks. In many cases, the availability of data later on is not due to what it's on, but how much you cared. Lots of paper has been discarded or damaged because the stuff written on it was not stuff I valued at the time, whether I wanted it later on or not.

[Roger Greenwood]

"The difference between a basic shampoo and dish soap is the coloring and scent for the most part."

I keep saying "it's just soap" when referring to many cleaning products and am then corrected every time due to the huge difference in price. Marketing:- you won this one.

Yes I have worked in a soap factory, very slippery underfoot.

[MachDiamond]

"I keep saying "it's just soap" when referring to many cleaning products "

There are many products like that. Way back when the Discovery Channel, The Learning Channel and that lot had stuff worth watching, there would be shows showing how unleaded gas (RBOB) is all the same and the difference between grades was the addition of a beaker full of octane booster and extra detergent in each tanker load. Oh yeah, the big markup in price too.

If you are concerned about the nutritional value of the food you eat, the bagged, frozen veggies are likely far better for you than fresh "organic".

When it comes to beans, I'm glad I saved money on soap to get the tins with the blue label?

[0laf]

Except these day your super unleaded is E5 and normal stuff is E10. The octaine rating I don't give a toss about but the ethanol content matters. E5 absorbs less water and goes off slower, so now I have to run my lawnmower etc on better fuel than my car.

[CountCadaver]

Apart from the ratios of ingredients being different and some shampoos don't contain sodium laureth sulfate (SLS) due to its harshness, which is the cheap degreasing component most supermarket brands use, which is also used in washing up liquid aka dish soap and industrial degreaser akin to acetic acid and vinegar being the same base ingredient, its just that vinegar is 95% water, splash 100% or even 30% acetic acid on your chips and you will be sorry

[Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch]

Just imagine how the Voynich Manuscript person feels about how their thesis was treated.

[Doctor Syntax]

As a member of a local history group we have the other side of this problem. We are occasionally given collections of documents but have no premises in which to store them. What to do? I'm gradually moving them towards a hosted NextCloud instance to make them accessible to members but that only lasts as long as there are funds to pay for hosting and it still doesn't help house the originals. Archives are not necessarily interested in them.

[DonM.]

paper can endure ....

Several decades ago I was a contractor at one of the Baby Bells (after the breakup of the original ATT) working on a project to digitize microfilm (analog) central office engineering drawings to an electronic imaging system - a bizarre combination of bit mapped raster files with vector drawing overlay files. We had just about finished the rollout & training to all the engineering offices. The last office I visited had a framed central office layout paper drawing over their service desk, dated '1902'. Still perfectly legible & intelligible. Shortly after that visit the company announced their buyout of another Baby Bell and that our imaging system would be replaced by the software the other Bell entity was using - totally different interface, totally different image formats. I packed up & departed. But still haunted by the 100 year old paper drawing ...

[MachDiamond]

Re: paper can endure ....

"I packed up & departed. But still haunted by the 100 year old paper drawing ..."

When I was in aerospace, I had some very large prints made of the plumbing and electrical layouts of the rockets we built and hung them on the wall. Anybody in engineering could pull up the files on their computer, but the paper version went from "why did you waste money on this?" to "why hadn't we done this earlier". We had a set of new interns 2-3 times a year (they were told not to take photos) and it was so much easier to get them up to speed on things using the old fashioned drawings on the wall. It was not that much money. I printed out the BOM's too, but didn't tack them to the wall. The wall next to my desk was covered with tables of standard values of electronic components, wire/insulation specs and a couple of clipboards of things currently being worked on. I could look things up on the computer, but it was so much faster to look to my right and find the chart with the info I needed. At the point where something had a handful of notes scrawled in the margins, I'd update the file on the computer and print out a new copy.

[Paul Kinsler]

My thesis is on 9-track magnetic tape.

I also have my thesis on some old tape format, but it doesn't matter that I can't read it -- I have had the file in my work archive copied from machine to machine to machine as I moved around.

The problem is, in fact, not how its been stored, but that it was created by the then version of MS Word. Fortunately I still have the nicely bound hardcopy version ... not that I need to read it very often.

[Nick L]

Criminal shame: this was an awesome place

I was lucky enough to visit this museum twice when I visited Seattle as I was visiting the mothership. It was utterly awesome. Being able to get hands on with some of the most important hardware in computing history was brilliant, there was so much in there that was the spark of what we all use now… The shop was excellent too, selling kits, components, achievement badges… properly great place to geek out. It’ll be missed. Shame that they couldn’t make it work in Seattle: what chance have other places got?!

[IGotOut]

Billionaires won't save it....

...not flashy or expensive enough in the world of willy waving tech bros.

[JRStern]

Is Total Recall even AI?

Just storing the images isn't AI, but I guess it's supposed to come with some kind of magic search also?

It's interesting, has a lot of pro's and con's.

Is it really AI?

I dunno.

[GlenP]

Museums...

Donor's remorse definitely exists. I've had friends loan (not even donate) artifacts to museums for display only to find a while later they've disappeared off into storage somewhere never to be seen again - unfortunately they didn't have any clear loan agreements with conditions for returning the items.

I've had conversations with similar privately owned setups outside of IT and all say the same thing, "We must get round to putting it all in trust!" Whether they do so in time, and whether the trust can be self-sustaining without the owner propping up the finances, is another matter.

[Phones Sheridan]

Re: Museums...

Donated my Sam Coupe' to a private museum. And after a decade or so they sold it off.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Museums...

"unfortunately they didn't have any clear loan agreements with conditions for returning the items."

This is critical. Loaning an item is safer than donating it in the event that the museum may close - and even publicly-owned museums, or those set up as trusts can run into hard times and be closed. But it needs firm documentation.

[Sceptic Tank]

Old junk.

[Plest]

Absolutely, the items themselves are just lumps of metal and plastic, but the evoke memeories in people who used them professionally. I hope one day when you're older you will find the joy of finding a stupid little item of plastic and the tears of joy and love will flow. My mum has been gone these past 25 years now, taken by way of a sudden stroke back them but I found an old pen in the spare room the other day, just a fountain pen, worn nib, made of plastic and metal tube, and I sat and cried for 5 mins. The item meant nothing but what it stirred in me had not been stirred in over 25 years.

One day I hope you'll understand....

[Wyrdness]

Even as someone who has a mild interest in old technology, I don't find computer museums very exciting. There are exceptions such as the Colossus rebuild at Bletchley Park, but old computers don't have the same fascination for most people as, say, planes or tanks.

[BradNail]

Sounds a lot like Derby Computer Museum - the UK's best kept secret when it comes to museums stuffed with old IT tech that you can actually switch on and play

https://www.derbycomputermuseum.co.uk/

[Timbo]

"Sounds a lot like Derby Computer Museum - the UK's best kept secret when it comes to museums stuffed with old IT tech that you can actually switch on and play"

Ditto the North West Computer Museum, in Leigh, WN7 2LB (near Manchester) (I just checked and post code might be WN7 1HS, according to their Facebook group).

Open Wednesdays to Sundays 10am-4pm (Closed Mondays and Tuesdays).

Admission: GBP7 per adult, GBP4.50 per child or concessions

https://www.nwcomputermuseum.org.uk/

[sedregj]

C-64

Mine has a USB drive

[rchrd]

Donor's Remorse?

Talk about remorse. The Living Computers Museum was indeed awesome. We stopped by every time we were in Seattle. And, I donated my collection of computer parts and manuals. Now I don't know where they are. Not sure I really care, tho. Clearly, the museum's legal structure was not sound and apparently there were no provisions for what would happen after Paul Allen's demise. I've also donated manuals to the Computer History Museum in Mountain View CA. And they're very much still in business.

[Antron Argaiv]

Re: Donor's Remorse?

+1 for the CHM. I have donated a couple of (I am reasonably sure) one-of-a-kind items to them.

[LOAD ZX Spectrum Museum]

I've set up a small niche computing museum dedicated to the creations of Sir Clive Sinclair and companies that worked with him such as TIMEX and several others. During the process we realised we were the first museum dedicated to the ZX Spectrum computer (as such computer was Sir Clive Sinclair's most recognised invention).

Many people from my generation (I was born in the 70s) in Europe consider the Speccy a symbol of our generation as many of us went to careers in IT because of it.

I'm no Paul Allen and this all started as a private collection that I decided to make available to the public in collaboration with a city hall in Portugal.

We avoid as much as possible loans. It's a nightmare to manage them so we explain that to our donors and only accept loans of unique things that we cannot find and buy.

We do not - at least for now - sell objects. We can exchange them with others to enrich our collection though - it has happened two or three times.

I do think a lot on how to find a way for the museum to survive me. The first key thing is to find a business model. We are a free entrance museum so we had to find ways to do activities using our collection to generate funds that we can reinvest. I am not sure if this will work, but we are trying really hard.

Our museum is called LOAD ZX, it's located in the centre of Portugal in a city called Cantanhede, close to Coimbra.

http://loadzx.com/en .

You have lots and lots of information on our work online.

Drop us a visit when you are in the country.