HMD Skyline: The repairable Android that lets you go dumb in a smart way

HMD is the company that made the post-Microsoft Nokia Android devices. Now it's going by its own name – and offering greater repairability. The HMD Skyline is a new Android phone from HMD. Formerly "Hon Hai Mobile Devices" and now "Human Mobile Devices," HMD is the Finnish outfit that, for several years, sold Nokia-branded …

[Pascal Monett]

3 years of updates ?

No !

You update that thing until there aren't any more on the market.

It's not a car, it's software. And even for cars, automakers are supposed to supply spare parts for more than a decade if I'm not mistaken.

So you can bloody well update your software for at least a decade.

This sell-and-forget civilization we're living in is really grating my nerves these days. Gotta refill my dried frog pills, I guess.

[Steve Button]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

Agreed. I like the idea of being able to swap out the battery every couple of years, or replace the cracked screen easily when I drop it, but with only 3 years of updates what's the point? I'll need to scrap it anyway if I want it to stay patched.

This is like "Sell me a phone that I can keep for 7 to 10 years, without selling me a phone that I can keep for 7 to 10 years".

[Filippo]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

I don't want to advocate for short upgrade cycles. I got a Pixel last week, specifically because Google promises a very long support time.

That said...

I kept my previous phone for 7 years. That meant that I was on Android 8 until last week.

It wasn't hell. All of the apps I cared for were available. Many of them were several versions behind, and some of them had minor bugs because of this. None of them missed key features. I have the latest & greatest versions now, and the changes are almost entirely cosmetic.

I was missing security patches, yes, but I never sideload apps, I always double-check reviews before installing apps that aren't well-known the world over, I don't grant permissions to apps unless I know why, and I'm not the type to click on "click me" buttons. I feel the danger was manageable.

Staying on old OS versions is also a pretty strong incentive for app developers to keep supporting old OS versions.

I got a new phone for no single reason, just the cumulative impact of a somewhat degraded battery, somewhat sluggish performance, and the aforementioned minor bugs. I plan to use it until I'm again in the same condition.

[Henry Hallan]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

If you have a Pixel you might look at Grapheme

https://grapheneos.org

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

>If you have a Pixel you might look at Grapheme

GrapheneOs only support the phone so long as the manufacturer releases security updates for the binary blob. After that their installer blocks older phones.

LineageOS will run on much older models (at the cost of some security)

[Pascal Monett]

Re: the changes are almost entirely cosmetic

Of course.

Actually creating functionality requires capable programmers.

Changing the position of the latest gizmo can be handed to the intern . . and we often see the results !

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

I know what you're saying, but with security, ignorance is bliss....until it isn't.

[TheRealRoland]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

Wife still on a BlackBerry KeyOne.

I miss my blackberries. I miss the unified accounts.

[Ken G]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

I did flash a LineageOS port to an older Redmi 6 phone, installed Hypathia antivirus, Beeper and FairEmail with a simple launcher then set it on 2G.

Beeper is as close to the BB10 Hub as I can get these days. Without 4G enabled (3G is mostly discontinued around me) I got 4-5 days of email, IM and calls.

[RAMChYLD]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

I had a Priv and loved it. I'm currently on a Vivo X100 Pro but retained the Blackberry Launcher and many other Blackberry parts because it turned out they can be installed separately, although a subscription has to be paid to continue using it. Sadly however the launcher and other gubbins have been earmarked as end of life and won't be receiving any more updates up until the day they stop working.

Kinda sad really. Blackberry's launcher has this really neat functionality that I've become very reliant on - swiping down on an app icon actually launches an impromptu instance of the app's widget if it has one. For me, this means quick my start screen is not cluttered with annoying widgets while I still get to use the widget.

As for three years of updates, that was far more better than Asus. I feel cheated as my ROG Phone 3 only received a single year's update and then that's it. Really rotten of Asus. I'm also surprised as to how many Asus circlejerkers there are out there- many of them were dismissing me with excuses that "Asus is a small company" and that I "should buy a new ROG Phone anyway because the old one is now too weak to run new games properly".

[Cruachan]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

I obviously can't comment specifically on this phone, but I had a Nokia 6.1 that was an HMD phone and it got updates for much longer than the period that was committed to under the old Android One program, I only replaced it last year with a Sony Xperia 10 IV, would happily have bought another HMD/Nokia if they'd had an obvious replacement for the 6.1.

[Dan 55]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

This sell-and-forget civilization we're living in is really grating my nerves these days. Gotta refill my dried frog pills, I guess.

The money to maintain the OS has got to come from somewhere, and now there's no infinite growth (no new growth markets) and no infinite borrowing (no almost-zero interest rates) you'll have to pony up for a subscription for OS updates, which people won't do.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

"now there's no infinite growth (no new growth markets) and no infinite borrowing (no almost-zero interest rates)"

There never were.

[The man with a spanner]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

Would it be unreasonable for the phone to come with say 3 years of free upgrade, and the option to pay for up to a further 7 years at a nominal fee, say £20 per year?

We happily pay for car maintenance so why not phone maintenance?

Alternativly, maybe phones can come with 7 years of security updates, but no feature changes. In other words you would stay on the same version of OS that you bought.

[Liam Proven]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

[Author here]

> Would it be unreasonable for the phone to come with say 3 years of free upgrade, and the option to pay for up to a further 7 years at a nominal fee, say £20 per year?

I think it would, yes.

Who would pay? *Why* would you pay?

Would your phone still work if you didn't? Yes. So why pay? There's no incentive.

But there's a dis-incentive.

If you did pay, you'd get newer Android. These days, newer = bigger. Bigger = slower.

Newer OS versions are aimed at faster hardware. But you're on the same hardware. So you'd be paying for a slower and slower phone. Why would you want that?

There must be smarter ways.

Apple got this right in a way.

Smartphones have always had free OS updates until they go end of life. This wasn't such a terrible cost: phones live harder lives than PCs, and so wear out and get replaced. So vendors don't need to support them forever.

But computers, PCs (_including_ Macs) especially desktops, last longer. And you can upgrade them. So PC OS updates cost. So PC owners don't update.

Result: an ever-growing pool of older kit and older OSes.

Result of that: vendors target the lowest common denominator to maximise potential sales.

Result of that: less incentive to upgrade.

Result of that: reduced sales of new devices.

Apple started making macOS version upgrades free with OS X 10.9 "Mavericks" -- before that, they cost money. They were not copy-protected and you could share them with your mates, or buy 1 copy for all your Macs, but you needed to buy it.

Result: more people updated their Macs.

Result: more software could assume a newer macOS and so vendors required newer versions of the OS.

Combine this with Apple's quite ruthless policies of removing older software components and modules and functionality and so forcing vendors to move to newer replacement APIs etc. and you have a OS development process that can be faster-moving because it doesn't have to carry so much bulk.

Mac OS X never supported any pre-G3 Macs.

Mac OS X 10.4 dropped PowerPC G3 support: G4 or above only.

OS X 10.5 dropped the Classic VM for MacOS 9.

10.6 dropped PowerPC support: it was Intel-only but ran PowerPC OS X apps in Rosetta 1. It also dropped AppleTalk file sharing and creating/writing HFS disks.

10.7 dropped Rosetta.

10.15 dropped 32-bit app support and HFS filesystem reading.

macOS 11 dropped AppleTalk even for printing.

14 drops pre-Metal GPUs and .kext support for Wifi.

And so on: continuous removal of old code.

But, free upgrades, so people keep on upgrading. So apps keep needing newer versions. And gradually older Macs are removed, so people must keep buying newer Macs.

The PC market is very different. Microsoft bends over backwards to retain legacy support and rarely removes stuff. 64-bit Windows (Vista onwards) dropped 16-bit app support, and some people are still complaining. Win11 drops support for pre-TPM2 PCs and is facing great resistance. (It doesn't help that it is poor: it doesn't give you anything in return. You lose vertical taskbars, for instance.)

Apple planned this well. Upgrades are free, and both customers and developers get new stuff in return for upgrading, so people do upgrade, and people replace their Macs regularly.

(I am weird like this: my Mac is nearly a decade old, has been substantially upgraded, and I don't use Apple apps or paid software. My Macs are pretty Unix boxes.)

Charging for upgrades is a bad plan.

[Graham 32]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

I'm ok with charging for major version updates. You get something for that. But security updates are a must on any networked device. I've never paid for security updates on any OS.

The key difference with the Android market, versus desktop and iOS, is the vendors needing to supply the update. Imagine what Windows would be like if every time MS puts out a security fix it had to be repackaged by Dell, Lenovo, HP, Asus, Acer, etc.

[ROC]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

Re your statement: "64-bit Windows (Vista onwards) dropped 16-bit app support,". I am still able to run the Hasbro Scrabble game on Windows 11 that was originally written for Win 3.1 and 95. It did have varying degrees of support (or methods to enable?) over the intervening 25+ years of the various Win versions, so I won't be too surprised if/when it does finally stop working, but my wife and I still enjoy it as an after dinner bit of mental exercise (with frequent annoyance at all the new words not supported...)..

[RAMChYLD]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

64-bit Windows can have 16-bit software support reinstated if you use WineVDM tho. It's not perfect, but it works flawless enough that even games like Full Tilt! Pinball works.

[Yankee Doodle Doofus]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

< "The money to maintain the OS has got to come from somewhere..."

A subscription probably wouldn't fly, but if it's a quality device, I'd happily pay $100 more up front for a commitment more in line with that of the Pixels.

[doublelayer]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

This is why I blame Google quite a bit for that. When we buy a laptop, we don't usually have to wonder about Windows or Linux dropping security updates. Microsoft did decide to drop Windows 11 support for some hardware, which they shouldn't have, but it's specific, relatively easily-checked details about specific hardware components. Everyone gets the same patches, whether they bought from a large company or a small one, whether that company is still in business or not.

With Android, there is no technical limitation involved, and determining what software updates are available requires identifying a specific model of device, and that is just to figure out what exists right now. Google could and should have designed their operating system to receive updates from a central location, not from manufacturers, and limited manufacturer-specific software to firmware components independent of the rest of the system. Patching a vulnerability in a system app doesn't require a firmware update or even a kernel patch, so it shouldn't need the manufacturer's approval. The money to write those patches is already there; someone is making them. Manufacturers should continue to build those patches for the devices they made for simple product quality standards, the kind of standards that encourages people to buy from them, but Google should have designed it so they didn't have to for anything that's not a bug in the manufacturer's code.

[Joe Burmeister]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

They should have a standardized hardware platform. With autodiscoverablity. Like PCs. It's doesn't have to be an ARM like mess to use ARM.

We could have Android distros builds that work on any Android phone, not a build per damn phone. Google made a right old mess of a platform.

They made a platform of throw away devices.

[TReko]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

Even if it does have many weird hardware configurations, there are solutions to fix this up. BSP = board support packages abstract things away, allowing standard operating systems to run on a variety of packages.

Hell, even Windows has a HAL = hardware abstraction layer. This allowed the original design to run on Intel x86, DEC Alpha, RISC and MIPS CPU's.

Android is just a steaming mess to get built. Plus big companies like Samsung bypass the open source Android API to implement their own steaming blob of mess, like VoLTE drivers.

[Dan 55]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

Windows Phone had a HAL, rather surprised that Google didn't copy the idea when MS proved that it could work. I suppose they were happy enough with their Play Services binary blob which already gave them the centralisation they wanted (enough data for targetted advertising).

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

You can upgrade Android with open source builds, all you need from the manufacturer is the device specific stuff in the modem chip - where all the security flaws are

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

Completely agree but there is a cost involved in doing that. You have to have people that test and adapt android for your devices then push out all the updates. You can't have cheap and 10 year updates. That's why cars are so expensive. We do need to do things differently though.

[Casca]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

And you pay for servicing cars.

[eszklar]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

Three years of updates is typical for phone manufactures, you do get exceptions like the latest Pixels (7 years) and iPhones typically get more than three years software-wise. Given all this, I'd rather get a Fairphone instead - more easily repairable and in addition to Fairphone's official Android OS build you can always install LineageOS or DivestOS to extend the life of the phone. Pity I can't get them easily here in Canada though.

[Alex Stuart]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

Indeed.

Can someone savvy in this area explain why newer versions of Android couldn't basically *just work* on older ARM-based phones the same way Windows does? I have a 13 year old rig that runs modern Windows fine, it just uses older drivers for some of the hardware.

What is special about Android that an OS image with a bunch of older drivers couldn't just install on an older phone? The install detects the IDs of the various modules - screen size, radio/wifi module, sound processor etc, and just uses the appropriate driver. It seems like that would be minimal work for either Google or the individual handset manufacturers, but I'm probably missing something.

[Strong as Taishan Mountains]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

Windows bends over backwards to keep ancient programs still compatible, which includes introducing problems and vulnerabilities in the process.

To my understanding much of the update duration has to do with agreements with firmware providers. Google can't do much if qualcomm or otherwise decline to continue providing patches (unless google negotiates that with Qualcomm or other)

Lots of blobs, lots of things needing continual work etc. (I say this as the owner of a pinephone, you don't realize the benefit of having a large corp dedicating resources to a project until you don't, that said I love FOSS projects, just for a phone I have reliability requirements which are absurd for a FOSS device)

[Yankee Doodle Doofus]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

You are probably right about that not being too hard to pull off, but unless the phone runs "stock" Android, a new version will still require resources from the maker of the phone. "Stock" Android on a new device would not sell, as if I understand correctly (I've not used it myself), it's not a very user-friendly experience.

[Liam Proven]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

[Author here]

> why newer versions of Android couldn't basically *just work* on older ARM-based phones

I did this when I covered Armbian in 2022:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/03/armbian_project_releases_version_2202/

Windows boots on a standardised platform (what used to be called an "IBM PC compatible") with all the I/O ports and things in standardised places, using standardised firmware (BIOS in olden times, now UEFI) so a generic kernel can access hardware in known ways via known addresses and things. All it needs is a few drivers to wake stuff up.

Arm is not like that. There's no standardised anything. Every Arm device is the Wild West with anything the makers fancied stuck anywhere the makers could fit initialised by their own one-off slapped-together code.

In the early days of PCs there were MS-DOS computers that weren't PC compatible: Apricot, Victor, Sirius, even exotica like Jarogate which ran Concurrent CP/M instead of DOS and didn't have a screen or a keyboard. Every one needed its own port of DOS and while "legal" software ran, which used documented API calls and didn't access hardware directly, almost nothing was "legal".

(I got tens of megs of data off a Jarogate Sprite by copying PKARC onto it, and compressing the data files. It was one of the very few things that would run. No 1-2-3, no wordprocessor: moving the cursor means accessing hardware and didn't port. But a file compressor just reads data, shrinks it, writes it out again, and outputs some text to the console.)

Every single Arm device, every model of phone, tablet, whatever, is a new port of the OS customised for that hardware. And all the hardware is undocumented and there are thousands of the things.

That's why projects like postmarketOS only support a tiny handful of phones: they'd need thousands of developers to support all the random junk out there, and in fact, the teams could go for dinner together without booking a table in advance.

[doublelayer]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

That's part of the problem, but far from the whole story. There are many cases where those problems are solved or unnecessary. For instance, the manufacturer has already gotten the firmware for the components and a kernel linked. At that point, newer versions of Android, and especially patched versions, can run just as well on top of that. You might eventually want a kernel update, but until you need one, there is no reason why the higher levels of the stack can't be updated. And yet, many times, manufacturers choose not to build it and their building it is often a requirement for you to get it.

But sometimes, you do need a kernel update. Many times when you do, you can't just compile the latest kernel and drop it in. That is often easier when you're compiling the latest patch version of the LTS kernel in use, which hasn't introduced changes that will break the modifications that have been made. You can't know that for certain, but many efforts to extend the life of phones have successfully managed it by updating to the latest version of the kernel. They can do that only when modifications to the kernel have been released, which although required by the license, manufacturers sometimes choose to ignore. Manufacturers could do it too, but as with the last version, they sometimes just choose not to.

But you also have the villain that people always point to, those darn SoC manufacturers with their blobs. Sometimes, that's a problem. More often, it's not a problem and it's an excuse. There are times when SoC manufacturers just stop updating their blobs. At that point, you're not necessarily out of luck, but things are harder. Let's assume that manufacturers are unwilling to take on the additional effort at that point. I'm not convinced it's as hard as is claimed, but we'll let them have it. What you often find, however, is that the SoC manufacturers have continued to provide updates but the phone manufacturers aren't using them. Lots of companies have stopped updating Android even when the same chips have been used in phones running much later versions. Chances are that, if a phone was an early user of a CPU, they probably dropped support before the SoC did.

[Alex Stuart]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

Interesting - thanks!

[Rahbut]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

"and just uses the appropriate driver"

That's kind of the problem - the driver is likely to be a blob provided by the chip vendor, and when they stop providing updates that's your lot. That was certainly one reason that was used in the past (specifically Qualcomm not playing along).

I believe that's one reason Google can go for 7 years - they provide the driver for their hardware.

I may be wildly off the mark.

[Alex Ziskand made a video about a similar problem for the new ARM based Windows co-pilot PCs: https://youtu.be/uhfO1IDFMrQ]

[Ken G]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

There is more variety of boards on Android but what you're describing does happen. Search "Custom Android ROM" or look at XDA Developers forums.

[Philo T Farnsworth]

Re: 3 years of updates ?

Amen!

In my experience, other than through accidental damage, hardware generally outlives software by decades.

I have a couple of perfectly usable phones sitting in a drawer because they're no longer receiving security software updates.

Being able to change a battery doesn't help much if you're going to get hacked because the vendor no longer updates the system.

Perhaps I'm just getting old (okay, I am old) but I don't feel I need the latest bit of shiny-shiny every year or so as long as the basic functions of my phone still work, thank you very much.

[abend0c4]

Xiaomi, to pick one example, could learn a lot ...

Phones and TVs are increasingly revenue-generating platforms, dependent on monetising the "owner". Manufacturers can only buck that trend if their customers actually care.

[My-Handle]

Re: Xiaomi, to pick one example, could learn a lot ...

I do. The last TV I bought was a dumb TV, and it essentially works as a large monitor for a media PC and a console. Now, there's not a lot I can do to stop streaming services advertising at me, but at least I can watch a DVD without my TV deciding it's time I saw an advert or reporting my viewing choices back to who-knows-who.

[abs]

Re: Xiaomi, to pick one example, could learn a lot ...

I did something similar. I had the choice of an Android TV or Sonys own smarts. Went for the latter as it was cheaper. When it arrived I connected my PC and switched it on. The first question it popped up with is whether I wanted to use the smart functionality. I chuckled and selected no.

[Sampler]

Re: Xiaomi, to pick one example, could learn a lot ...

I have a xiaomi, but it's a flagship model, and get no ads or other bothers - I think it's because I actually paid for the device, rather than one of the lower tier phones that people seem to have trouble with, where the advertising offsets the purchase price..

[Doctor Syntax]

"it's a fairly uncluttered version of Android 14 with little bloat. There are preinstalled launchers for Facebook, LinkedIn, FitBit, a handful other apps,"

From my PoV those count as bloat.

It would be useful if they knew how to - or cared to - write a website which is browser neutral. A whole-screen cookie preference chooser followed by a blank white screen is not a useful way to communicate to potential customers.

[IGotOut]

I guess you didn't go any further on the article after reading that. The part where it said they can be uninstalled.

[Zibob]

And further from that, they are not the full app installed, its an installer itself. So Facebook et al. are not installed, just left the installer there if you want to install them yourself.

[Doctor Syntax]

My much older HMD-manufactured phone does not have such installers pre-installed. Irrespective of it being possible to uninstall the installers it still counts as bloat.

[steelpillow]

Agreed. Bloat isn't just about gigabytes, it's also about unwanted clickbait cluttering up your UI.

[phuzz]

When Windows 11 puts a link to CandyCrush in my fucking start menu, it's still bloat, even if it's just a link to the store page.

[AMBxx]

We have a couple of Nokias - XR21 & X20 (something like that).

They're great except for 2 things:

1) Using WiFi calling is very iffy with dropped calls. Sometimes within the first minute, sometimes you can talk for as long as 20 minutes. This is why they're in a drawer.

2) Effing Netflix app - I uninstall but it's always comes back after an update. Cockroach app.

[YetAnotherACUser]

"If it supported dual SIMs and a memory card, and had a headphone socket and a bigger battery"...

so, if it was a different/better phone it would be good, but isn't... I'll keep my 7 years old-rooted-LineageOS-equipped Samsung thankyouverymuch...

[3arn0wl]

Agreed

"GSM voice calls and SMS don't cut it any more."

I think there is room in the marketplace for a mobile device without GSM... and if it ran the converging Lomiri UI : even better.

I've long held that a common communications app would be a strong feature too.

[xyz]

Re: Agreed

This is what baffles me. A phone number is just an ID now for using WhatsApp, Telegram et al. Why pay for an international voice call (which'll end up VOIP anyway) when I can do a video call to the same person for pretty much zilch?

The only people these days that old fashioned "phone" or send sms messages tend to be spammers.

[Anonymous Coward]

you should go live in Asia

because SMS/normal "phone" calls are still very much common in there, and a phone number isn't just an ID for some social media service. If you don't want to use them, go make your own phone and service.

[DS999]

Re: Agreed

And what do you do if the party you want to communicate with does not use Whatsapp or Telegram, or whatever your video call app of choice is?

I suppose you could choose your friends to avoid anyone who refuses to use those apps, but if you want to contact a business? What if they expect a traditional phone call, and the only messaging they support is SMS (maybe along with something else not on your list like RCS or iMessage?)

You're going to have a hard time making your way in the world if you personally decide phone calls and SMS are obsolete and demand everyone else use the methods of communication you prefer. I for one am not a fan of video calls, I'll only do them with a few close friends. Everyone else if I need to talk to them is voice only.

[captain veg]

Re: Agreed

> The only people these days that old fashioned "phone" or send sms messages tend to be spammers.

And my bank. I wouldn't be able to make any online transactions at all without SMS.

> Why pay for an international voice call (which'll end up VOIP anyway) when I can do a video call to the same person for pretty much zilch?

My mobile provider includes free calls to (at the last count) 83 countries. If yours doesn't, take it up with them.

-A.

[doublelayer]

Re: Agreed

My provider provides free calls to not as many countries, but still quite a few. Some of them are labeled land lines only for some reason, and I'm not sure if they mean it or not. Other countries are just not on the list. Many of them are not countries I call very often. For instance, Tanzania is not on the list, and I don't know anyone there, so I'm unlikely to spend very long finding the provider that does provide free calls to Tanzania. What happens when I do meet someone with a Tanzanian phone number and I want to call them. Do I start a fast search for a provider that will give me free calls, transfer my service, then call? No, I use one of the many internet-based systems, coordinate with them so they're also using it, place a call to them, and it works fine with no paperwork. That internet-based system might be hosted on my own servers.

[captain veg]

Re: Agreed

Almost everyone has a mobile phone, and almost all of them have a number which can be called from any other phone in the world.

You give me your Whatsapp number and I have to be on Whatsapp to call it. I'm not. I won't ever be. Repeat for Signal and all the other OTT businesses.

-A.

[steelpillow]

Re: Agreed

The networks all seem to be turning off GSM nowadays, at least round here. No longer can a cell tower reach inside a supermarket, I have to go outside to ask what that cryptic scribble means. And mobile data links generally are suffering in quality due to high contention rates - presumably due in turn to all the bandwidth being gobbled by voice calls diverted off the old channels. Sometimes,"progress" isn't.

[Dan 55]

Re: Agreed

A mobile device without GSM would be an iPod (as was) or a Sony Android Walkman?

[3arn0wl]

Re: Agreed

Like the later iPod, yes, bat with a modern (RISC-V) processor, and a better OS.

[Liam Proven]

Re: Agreed

> I think there is room in the marketplace for a mobile device without GSM

It's called an iPod Touch.

</snark>

[Zibob]

No headphone socket

This should be higher in the article than it is. Its is still a pretty iomportant feature to me and probaly a good few others.

It would have been nice to see something in this price range and reparability to have one, doubly so if there is less focus on dirt and water getting in, no real excuse not to have one.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: No headphone socket

I mean, even Fairphone doesn't have one anymore...

[JoeCool]

Re: No headphone socket

I'm not sure how many people still use wired headphones / headsets, but I resolved it pretty easily:

https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/product/MW2Q3AM/A/usb-c-to-35mm-headphone-jack-adapter

[Gene Cash]

Re: No headphone socket

The problems with those stupid adapters are 1) they are easy to lose, 2) you can no longer charge your phone at the same time you're taking a call, meaning if you're in a long meeting and you're low on battery, you're fucked. 3) getting rid of 3.5mm jacks is retarded and unnecessary

It's just like superthin laptops not having ethernet jacks.

I did get one of those adapters with my last Pixel, meaning Google does know it is a problem. They just don't care, as usual.

[CountCadaver]

Re: No headphone socket

Bluetooth headphones is my solution

Earfun air have decent sound quality, good battery life, good water resistance/proofing and cheap at ~£30

[Zibob]

Re: No headphone socket

I would prefer to keep using my nice wired ones. I do have Bluetooth too, but they are for different situations.

[The Dogs Meevonks]

Re: No headphone socket

I'd rather not be FORCED into extra expense to line the companies pockets because their greed is the only reason this has happened... it's not for convenience, it's not for safety and it's not for waterproofing... it's to con the gullible into paying extra for accessories that cost 5x as much as the old versions did.

I have some excellent wired headphones and some semi decent wired earbuds... certainly good enough for listening to things when out and about.

Being forced to buy extras to use what still works and will continue to work for years to come because there are no batteries or wireless parts to fail... is a shitty, greed based move and I reject your naivity and wilfully ignorant compliance with their demands.

[Zibob]

Re: No headphone socket

Yes it is the buying new things that do the same job and also that the new this have a built in shelf life with batteries that may not be replaceable that I really don't like.

There are headphones from the 40s that can still be used just fine today.

I have both kinds and far more often its easier to use wired ones most of the time.

[keithpeter]

Re: No headphone socket

I was actually wondering if this trend to leaving out headphone sockets had anything to do with the environmental rating of the phone in the sense of water ingress?

Or are they just saving a connector and manufacturing step?

[Liam Proven]

Re: No headphone socket

> I resolved it pretty easily:

1. I don't want another dongle.

2. I often want to charge at the same time as listen, in the office.

[isdnip]

Re: No headphone socket

I agree that a headphone socket would be nice. I do notice that Samsung has them in its cheap phones, up to the A25, but omits the jack in the A35 and above, including the S series. My guess is that headphone jacks are not waterproof, and the phones with the jack do not have an IP rating while the phones without them do. I don't swim with my phone so I'd rather have the jack.

[Pete Sdev]

Re: No headphone socket

There are water resistant headphone sockets available, which have been used on phones in the past, though they obviously cost more.

Far cheaper to leave it out altogether. Especially as the majority of users are using Bluetooth audio these days.

I managed to keep a 3.5mm socket until my current phone (Samsung A33) when I finally gave up, and decided that water resistance (and long-term updates) is more important than having an audio jack.

[I ain't Spartacus]

Re: No headphone socket

I made the same choice. Was rather annoyed to lose the headphone jack, especially as my previous Huawei phone lied about it on the specs - it came with an 3.5mm to USB C adaptor - so I suppose you could argue it was technically true that there was a headphone jack... But then Lidl had some rather good quality Bluetooth headphones for £20 - so I tried my luck. And actually I found the cables very annoying, and whenever I use one of my old wired headphones, they get pulled at least once every time. So I've decided Bluetooth is better.

I won't buy expensive headphones, because I tend to mostly listen to podcasts, and mine get thrown into a bag every day - as they're used walking or on public transport - so nothing seems to last more than 4 years. But you can get reasonable quality Bluetooth over-ear ones for under £30 - I don't know about the in-ear types because I hate those with a passion - I may have funny shaped ears?

[The Organ Grinder's Monkey]

Re: No headphone socket

Former headphone socketless 'phone refusenik here...

I held out for the headphone socket for quite a few years, but then bought a pair of Sennheiser PX210BT Bluetooth on-ear foldable headphones from ebay for about £30ish.

I don't miss the regular chore of having to replace the cable &/or plug of the various quite expensive on-ear 'phones that I'd been using previously, as often as every six months. The thinner than a human hair cables they use now are buggers to solder.

Those Sennheisers have a swappable battery & I keep a charged one in my rucksack "manbag" but very rarely have to use it, still getting a good 8 hours out of the now very old batteries. Charger is built in to the battery so you can charge one whilst using another.

[C R Mudgeon]

Re: No headphone socket

Is there any *technical* reason to prefer wired headphones/earbuds over Bluetooth?

I absolutely get people's resentment at being prodded to retire perfectly good kit. I agree! My question isn't about that.

But if one is in the market for a new pair anyway, is there a reason not to go wireless? Having recently done so, I find them incredibly more convenient than my old wired earbuds.

[doublelayer]

Re: No headphone socket

The most compelling arguments to prefer wired over wireless headphones are these, though some of them don't apply to all headphones and will be noted:

1. One fewer battery that needs charging.

2. Less power usage overall, though for many people, it's so small anyway that they don't actually care.

3. Higher latency for wireless, although there are many modern ones that have low-latency modes which reduce this significantly. This matters for some things but not as much for listening to music.

4. Longer time to connect, although in my experience, the wired ones will eventually get there when their cable has to be tilted in a certain way for them to work.

5. More complicated steps required if using them routinely with different devices.

[Kevin McMurtrie]

Re: No headphone socket

The ASUS phones still have a headphone jack. Sadly, there are build quality problems with the ROG Phone 8 and the perfect ROG Phone 7 is hard to find.

[RockBurner]

The screen ... sits very slightly proud of a metal body

I'm sorry... what??

That's an absolute guarantee that the screen will crack with even a very slight drop.

I suppose if they're going spend moolah making a phone that's easily repairable, they need to recoup moolah by making sure it needs frequent repairing.

"I'm oot".

[isdnip]

Hon Hai?

Is Hon Hai Mobile Devices a/k/a HMD part of Hon Hai Precision Industries, better known as Foxconn?

[Liam Proven]

Re: Hon Hai?

Good catch!

Answer: kinda sorta.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#FIH_Mobile

Hon Hai bought the mobiles division that MS bought from Nokia, and AFAICS spun it off again. Its HQ is in Espoo. I suspect some of the same people are still there.

[Jamesit]

"We suspect that such advanced filtering would need some kind of unified inbox for messages and notifications – a feature that we badly miss from our Blackberry Passport a decade ago."

That feature is available by installing Blackberry Hub+ services. On non Blackberry phones it's free for 30 days, It includes BB Hub+ contacts, inbox, notes, tasks, launcher, Password keeper and privacy shade. the BB Keyboard isn't included I hope that changes,

[kilgoretrout]

"GSM voice calls and SMS are too expensive"

VoWiFi and VoLTE are the solution, and perhaps should be advertised by the makers of these dumb phones like the mentioned Nokia 2660 Flip.

[The Dogs Meevonks]

HMD Tablet is ok

I've been meaning to replace my old nvidia shield K1 tablet that had battery bloat, and used my dads old identical 1 with a cracked screen until that could barely hold a charge for more than a few hrs.

A few weeks back, I picked up the HMD T21 tablet... was going to get the nokia branded identical version (without the sim slot) as it was £40 cheaper... but no stock of the larger capacity one. So I got the HMD T21 which... is identical except it's got that aforementioned sim card slot... not that I plan on putting a sim card in it.

For £229, it's a decent enough tablet... and 2 OS upgrades and 3yrs of security updates... is about the avg these days. I agree it should be longer, much longer for security updates. But you're dealing with forks of android rather than vanilla... every company has their version and their overlays... at least the HMD like most motorola devices... is close to vanilla. A few preinstalled apps, some cannot be uninstalled, but easily disabled... same with prebaked default google apps... disable them as soon as I can... like chrome, play movies/music/youtube and so forth (install grayjay as soon as you can)

Seeing as I use it mostly for reading books, and I refuse to buy into the amazon ecosystem with a kindle device... the screen is bright and clear, the sound is decent for a tablet and the battery life sufficient for a full days medium use without gaming.

Would def recommend for the price... and considered getting one of their phones for my mum after her old one failed... but settled on a motorola G34 instead as it was on offer for £120 and she doesn't need an expensive phone.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: HMD Tablet is ok <<so far?>>

YMMV of course!

I bought a T21, I liked the idea of longer software support, i stopped working within a month, I returned it as instructed by HMD, , and it has still not been repaired, let alone returned over a month later,

when asked why it was taking so long, apparently the do not have spare parts for a T21.

so regardless of software support it not much of a benefit if the hardware and it's support is this bad.

Belatedly I looked up HMD on Trustpilot, I'm not alone in this, it appears no one has a good word for them.

I'd strongly advise any one contemplating a HMD device to look elsewhere, anywhere, but HMD

[inonofin]

Re: HMD Tablet is ok <<so far?>>

UPDATE!

heard today HMD have managed to complete a repair !

they sound so excited!

the useless tablet has been 9 weeks in their hands, out of the 4 months since the tablet was ordered, I have had use of it for less than 1 month, I've been demanding a refund for 6 weeks, without response.

Chargeback in progress (thats another story!) but next steps will be trading standards, and a small claims compensation case. yes HMD might make some interesting sounding devices, But I have to say I'm one of dozens of people in the uk alone who have found that their products are scrap, and their support is vacuous. my recommendation, if you like the look of something HMD are selling, find a reputable vendor, use the criteria, 'not called 'HMD' or, under license NOKIA (I cannot believe Nokia are not dealing with the damage their brand is suffering in this...............)

[jubuttib]

IP ratings

I keep thinking this, but I don't think the easy to open construction can really be fully blamed for the IP54 rating, when Samsung Galaxy S5 10 years ago had IP67 with a quick detach back cover and a battery without any adhesives.

Clearly they can do that kind of stuff if they want to, they're choosing not to. Could be to hit a price point, too.