back to article Shein, Temu escalate epic e-commerce squabble

Shein, a well-known purveyor of desperately cheap goods, has raised lurid claims against its rival Temu in a lawsuit. The two Chinese outfits both focus on fashion items, which they sell at astoundingly low prices – think $5 for a top that might survive two washes – and promote with near-constant blitzes of online advertising …

  1. b0llchit Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Junk slinger accuses junk slinger to sling junk at junk slinger's victims causing junk slinging across an even wider group of victims.

    Maybe there should simply be a quality tax on all these junk imports at the inverse proportional level with respect to the quality of the product.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      So, for example, a fine quality red MAGA baseball cap made in the USA from home grown cotton gets no tax.

      The same design made in a factory in Mexico with Egyptian cotton gets 15% tax while a disgusting Blue Harris/Walz cap made in Canada from hemp gets 50% tax?

      Sometimes quality is in the eye of the beholder.

      1. simonlb Silver badge
        Joke

        No, that's just your usual USA protectionism at play, which is great.

    2. Casca Silver badge

      First step would be to remove China from developing country status so they pay full postage fees on the crap the post

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        If China weren't cheating on their status in the international postage system, it would be too expensive to post cheap tat to the US and Europe, and then the sellers would have to freight goods in as consignments to destination country fulfilment houses. That would mean proper customs declarations, duty payments, risk-flagging in regulator's systems, the consignments could be checked and inspected, and the fulfilment houses act as an in-country attack surface for breaches of law.

        At the moment, none of that goes on, Chinese vendors can post almost anything overseas - dangerous goods, non-compliant goods, prohibited articles etc. There's virtually no checks on incoming post other than checks to pick up guns and knives (and it's questionable how effective they are).

    3. UnknownUnknown

      Just a revision on Low Value Tax/Import/Postal Relief consignments in the same way that Tesco Jersey was put out of business by UK’s HMRC Tax people over a decade ago.

  2. CT

    "seamless sales overseas" of Shein and Temu.

    That would explain them only lasting two washes

  3. simonlb Silver badge
    Holmes

    "Shop Like A Billionaire"

    My understanding is that most billionaires have minions to do their shopping and wouldn't have the slightest idea that online tat bazaars like Temu or Shein even exist. That, and they also usually go to a swanky party or event and get given bags of free stuff just for turning up. It's a hard life being wealthy.

    1. wolfetone Silver badge

      Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

      Sort of.

      They tend to go for quality. Quality items often come with a price tag, and aren't always from large sellers. Often they'll be from long established but small companies that may only have one shop, but in the circles they live in everyone will know about them.

      One previous job of mine was for one such company and Reinhard Schneider came in for a few days with his wife. Very nice man actually. But he was there because Sheik Hamad (former Sheik of Qatar I think) recommended the place to him. Met him in passing once, again a nice man, but yeah. These people don't shop on the basis that something looks expensive or that someone famous has worn it. They go to places that aren't heard of for quality products and are willing to pay more for that because of the quality.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

        "They tend to go for quality"

        Strongly disagree...they tend to go for products that also happen to be good quality because the places they go to avoid the riff raff happen to stock high quality items...I doubt that it is a conscious decision. Doesn't matter how rich you are, you can be equally oblivious to quality...being wealthy doesn't suddenly make you aware of what high quality items are...it just unlocks your ability to easily acquire them because now you can shop in places that you previously couldn't...

        For example, you're never going to see Le Crueset cookware in the "Middle of Lidl"...but it is sold in John Lewis.

        1. wolfetone Silver badge

          Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

          There is two types of wealth though at the same time. There is this inherited/long standing wealth, and then there is self made.

          Self made will go and purchase their Le Crueset cookware.

          Inherited/long standing wealth are going to use something from a no name company (in the wider consciousness) that have been making pans for 200 years.

          1. collinsl Silver badge

            Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

            And the thing is that higher quality stuff will generally last much much longer so it'll be handed down from parent to child for several generations (until the handle drops off).

            This is where the Terry Pratchett "Vimes "'Boots' Theory of Social Inequality" comes in:

            "The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet."

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

              This is not true, in my experience expensive boots/clothes wear out just as fast as cheaper ones. Usually made in the same factories, but one has a Veblen label on.

              That goes double for running trainers.

              1. heyrick Silver badge

                Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

                I think it depends upon what you buy, as in what it is made of. I live in what used to be a farm. So lots of land, and being in Brittany it can get pretty wet here. Well, less so these days than twenty years ago but that's a different argument.

                I need to cross the field (grass, usually mown) to feed the furry ones. When I go I usually wear leather shoes, just generic ones from a high street shop (I don't like wellies and only wear them when necessary). They don't get soaked, but there is some amount of walking in the wet, particularly if it is chucking it down. But they last several years.

                Synthetic leather? Cheaper, ideal for this sort of thing, right? Wrong. Synthetic leather is basically a piece of fabric with a foamy gunk stuck to it, and a piece of plastic that's "the leather outside" stuck to that. And the important thing to note is that this piece of plastic is actually what attaches to the sole. So when you walk in the wet wearing a shoe like that, a little bit of water will seep into the foamy stuff. That plus the walking movement and the foamy stuff will start to degrade. After a while, all that will be holding the top and the sole together will be that thin layer of plastic, like a piece of cling film. Once that goes, it's game over.

                So yes, I pay twice as much for leather, but given that it lasts for years rather than months (if that) it's a logical choice. Neither shoe was expensive, but it's better to consider the use cases when choosing to avoid wasting money.

              2. MyffyW Silver badge

                Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

                I would like to call out Dr Martens for particular ire. It's been a long time since they were made in Northampton, and watching the change in country of origin on my 1460s has an exact correlation with their quality of manufacture. Vietnam and now Laos being the most recent, whilst the boots wear out in increasingly weird, entertaining and pretty much irreparable ways.

                Finally ditched them for my latest purchase, going for British-made Grinders (no relation to a certain dating app, not that it would bother me)

                1. Sherrie Ludwig

                  Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

                  Guy on Youtube, Rose Anvil, cuts open various brands of boots and shoes to expose how well/shoddily they are made. Eye opening. https://www.youtube.com/c/roseanvil

              3. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

                "Usually made in the same factories"

                I think you're confusing "expensive" with "quality". Not all items that are expensive are high quality, but all high quality items are expensive.

                The main thing with quality items is that they can be maintained and serviced, they don't have to be expensive...usually though the expensive items take into account the lifespan of the item and incorporate some of the future costs associated with servicing it. This is certainly the case with watches...because some expensive and high quality watches are relatively cheap to have serviced, because it is all part of the package you're buying. Like a Cartier Tank Francaise or an Omega for example...pretty expensive to buy, but reasonable to keep serviced and maintained (the watch might cost you £10k+, but a service will be £150-£200 at a properly licensed place)...on the other hand, something expensive, yet something really fucking tacky like a Rolex...costs tons to buy and is still fucking expensive to get serviced (a naff looking pikey Rolex Pepsi costs thousands to service)...with a Rolex you're not paying for quality or taste, you're paying to say you own a Rolex...if I meet someone with a Rolex, I'm immediately trying to shield myself from the glare of his teeth veneers and looking around to get a look at his bimbo missus that looks like a blow up sex doll with a "trout pout", "arse implants", "beach ball tits" a "bisto" tan and a laugh like Woody Woodpecker.

                1. Ken G Silver badge
                  Angel

                  Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

                  I agree with you in principle but will quibble on details.

                  There was a fuss about a decade ago about the Cartier Santos. A fake version was on sale that, it turned out, came from the same factory as the original (in China) but out the back door without paying the commission to Richemont.

                  Mass market Chinese watches (mostly homages, not fakes) are now at the same quality or better than Swiss watches of the 70's and 80's. I'd be quite happy to buy, for example, a San Martin or Seagull and take it to a normal watchmaker for service without worrying about his not finding spare parts or flaws in workmanship. Equally if I had the money for a Rolex, I know a half dozen small makers in Europe who will hand assemble something truly unique and beautiful. As it is, I'm somewhere in between and saving towards a Yema Superman Slim.

              4. Ken G Silver badge

                Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

                They do wear out but because their better made not as quickly and they can be resoled to better than new (because already worn in).

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

            "Inherited/long standing wealth are going to use something from a no name company (in the wider consciousness) that have been making pans for 200 years."

            Old money doesn't go shopping...the help buys the kit they need and since the cost just disappears into the operational cost of whatever it is they do, they probably just go out and buy the best.

            1. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

              Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

              Old money does go shopping, for some things.

              I like the sound of stringed musical instruments. One day whilst on a bicycle ride, I spotted a violin shop. On a whim, I stopped, locked up my bike to a railing, as there were no bicycle racks, and went inside. The showroom was a large, rectangular room of spare and elegant design, with north- and west-facing floor-to-ceiling windows, a cream, maroon, royal blue, and dark-green striped carpet, and one wall covered with violins, cellos, etc. (and no price tags). At the far end was a staffer conferring with what appeared to be a father, mother, and ~16-year-old daughter. It appeared they were considering buying a cello for the daughter. I know nothing of clothes fashion, expensive clothes brands, etc., yet somehow to me, their clothing screamed, "FECKIN' BLOODY RICH!" I stood there in my somewhat-grubby hi-vis cycling jacket for sbout ten seconds taking all this in, then did a 180° turn, and left as quickly and quietly as I could.

              It was very much a "wrong bar" sort of moment.

        2. UnknownUnknown

          Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

          https://www.eastlothiancourier.com/news/19958372.lidls-cast-iron-designer-inspired-collection-returning-stores---get/

          https://www.independent.co.uk/extras/indybest/house-garden/kitchen-accessories/aldi-le-creuset-dupe-review-b2012066.html

          You will get Ernesto in Lidl and Crofton in Aldi as lookalikes. Both up the middle.

          Aldi/Lidl Chinese tat good, Shein/Temu tat bad ??

          1. tonkei

            Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

            If Aldi/Lidl have done reasonable quality checks & have a decent warranty? Yes.

    2. heyrick Silver badge

      Re: "Shop Like A Billionaire"

      I would have imagined that any billionaire wouldn't want to go near the likes of Temu. I don't know whether it's an autism thing but I find the site - like Alibaba - to be absolutely awful. Like I feel queasy just looking at it. That plus the habit of bundling multiple things together to blatantly lie about prices (one of those dinky little Bluetooth cat printers, two euros...no, the third option is a roll of thermal paper for two euros, the printer is somewhat more) mean that you just can't trust the confused prices in the confused layout of that bloody awful excuse of a site.

      I lasted about three minutes. Never going back.

  4. Andy 73 Silver badge

    "late-stage capitalism"

    The phrase "late-stage capitalism" really confuses me, especially when applied to China that has barely got through "early-stage capitalism".

    What does it even mean, other than a knee jerk dislike of businesses that make large profits? What is the assumed "final-stage" of capitalism, and why aren't we going to get just more capitalism, organised differently? How many times do you have to say capitalism before it starts sounding weird? And... given that capitalism has delivered us everything from heart valves to mobile phones, why are we now objecting to it when other people do it? Isn't that just late stage colonialism, trying to keep down the savages?

    (For reference, yes businesses and individuals can achieve excesses that go way beyond the pale, and break both real laws and a range of moral codes - but like democracy, this imperfect system has not yet led to a better alternative, despite the dreams of many armchair economists. We can certainly do capitalism better and more fairly, but so far we've not really found anything to replace it.).

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "late-stage capitalism"

      The late stage capitalism is in the "West" and refers to the inequalities etc born of capitalism as it is practised here. It's final stage might be terminal...

      Adam Smith apparently believed in low profits, high wages, equitability, and protection of workers by law and regulation of the markets. His book is the "Wealth of Nations" not "The Wealth of Individuals".

      1. Dostoevsky Bronze badge

        Re: "late-stage capitalism"

        He was very explicitly against regulating markets, and your statement to the contrary makes me think you never read his book.

        1. MyffyW Silver badge

          Re: "late-stage capitalism"

          Adam Smith was very suspicious of the "Joint Stock" companies that were emerging in his day, saying that when someone wasn't venturing their own money but that of other investors they were likely to be less prudent.

          He also called out the problem of "torpor of the mind" from workers engaged in repetitive labour.

          The companion volume to Wealth of Nations - The Theory of Moral Sentiments is worth a read for anyone seeing Adam Smith as purely an advocate of neo-Con economics.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "late-stage capitalism"

          I've barely read a chapter of Das Kapital

          I said corrrected on regulation of markers. He was against tariffs and monopolies "Where there is an exclusive corporation, it may perhaps be proper to regulate the price of the first necessary of life. But where there is none, the competition will regulate it much better than any assize,”"

          But that doesn't detract from improving the lot of the common man. Free marketers seem to praise his opinion of lack of regulation but ignore the rest.

          "Is this improvement in the circumstances of the lower ranks of the people to be regarded as an advantage or as an inconveniency to the society? The answer seems at first sight abundantly plain. Servants, labourers, and workmen of different kinds, make up the far greater part of every great political society. But what improves the circumstances of the greater part can never be regarded as an inconveniency to the whole. No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable. It is but equity, besides, that they who feed, clothe, and lodge the whole body of the people, should have such a share of the produce of their own labour as to be themselves tolerably well fed, clothed, and lodged."

          1. Dostoevsky Bronze badge

            Re: "late-stage capitalism"

            Thank you. You're right to say that free market economists mostly discuss over-regulation. There's a reason for that, though. Adam Smith's point is that a free market will usually maximize the welfare of its constituents without intervention. Removal of overregulation should naturally "improve the lot of the common man," which is why they discuss one and not the other.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "late-stage capitalism"

              "should" =/= "will" so regulation is a necessary 'evil'.

              Plus those free-marketeers can't see the reverse that improving the lot of the common man leads to trickle-up benefits for the country as whole.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: "late-stage capitalism"

                Who cares about the common man? The only important thing is the profit you can stuff in your own pockets, everything else is just pretense.

    2. simonlb Silver badge

      Re: "late-stage capitalism"

      It generally tends to cover the concept of making a maximum profit at the expense of everything else, trying to upsell the customer at every opportunity as well as trying to monetise all the data about those customers even if that might be illegal. In other words, just being bloody greedy for the sake of it.

      Examples would be: Supermarkets where you have to pick, scan, bag and pay for your stuff with only a skeleton staff available if there's an issue; Software or Media companies who change the definition of the word 'purchase' in the T's & C's so you don't actually own the product you think you've just bought and subsequently have to pay a subscription to use; Having features fitted as standard to your new car which you can only rent on a monthly basis or pay a considerable 'activation' fee to turn on at initial purchase (again, a subscription); Social Media or Software companies who have clauses in their T's & C's so that they retain full ownership of any picture, photo, media or content you post or create forever, and which they can subsequently use however they want, even to make money off.

      Or just watch a Louis Rossman video on YouTube - it shows just what happens when there are essentially zero consumer protection laws in effect in your country.

      An alternate expression is 'enshittification'.

      1. IGotOut Silver badge

        Re: "late-stage capitalism"

        Add to that removal of features you already had.

        Example

        You pay £10 a month for a service.

        However that is now being replaced with a "Premium" service for £5 extra a month. However there is a new "Basic" service that is the same price, but now with less features and ads. This is to allow you a greater freedom of enhanced customer experience.

        Or how about the likes of Just Eat. "20% off on Tuesdays" where all the retailers increase their prices by 20% every Tuesday.

        1. heyrick Silver badge

          Re: "late-stage capitalism"

          Or Netflix's recent "we're getting rid of the basic package so YOU'LL PAY 40% LESS ¡!¡!¡!¡!" and some really tiny text about adverts, and some even smaller text that says if this idea upsets you, you can always pay more for the advert free intermediate package. You know, the one you didn't feel the need to subscribe to earlier.

          One thing that wasn't covered in the email that they sent me was that when the advert package was first introduced, it was noted that "some" content would not be available with that subscription level. Now that they have chosen to remove the basic tier and have moved me onto the advert one, is this still the case? Is this a sneaky way to push people to paying more? I watch using either a telephone or tablet (don't scream, I'm myopic so it works for me) and there's only me so I don't need the extra quality bump or the ability to watch two things at once. But I would like, due to their actions, not mine, to know that there won't be stuff blocked because I'm on the cheap tariff. I specifically didn't switch to that when it was introduced because, well, Netflix, if I wanted adverts I'd just spend my evenings watching FilmFour...

          1. gnasher729 Silver badge

            Re: "late-stage capitalism"

            I was switched from their £7.99 package to £4.99 for better picture quality, two instead of one channels - and so far very few adverts. That cannot be skipped.

            For password sharers, they had to buy a more expensive package to have more channels, now they can add another viewer for £4.99. (3 channels, one not at your home, no ads, £15.99).

            The price changes seem worse in the USA. In the UK, not optimal but not unreasonable IMO.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "late-stage capitalism"

          I was on LinkedIn since it was in beta.

          I had their Premium subscription for some years before Microsoft bought it.

          They keep trying to lure me back into Premium offering much less function than then for much more money.

      2. heyrick Silver badge

        Re: "late-stage capitalism"

        "Supermarkets where you have to pick, scan, bag and pay for your stuff with only a skeleton staff available"

        Speaking of enshittification, over left pond, those self service tills may now ask for a tip. What the actual fuck?

    3. Dostoevsky Bronze badge

      Re: "late-stage capitalism"

      Finally, someone in the Reg commentariat that has a functioning brain.

      I always cringe a little when people argue against capitalism while enjoying all its benefits, like electronics and decent, readily-available healthcare.*

      * Does not apply if you are British. Contact your local MP to claim compensation. :)

    4. MyffyW Silver badge

      Re: "late-stage capitalism"

      It's robber-baron capitalism whether in China or the West.

      The less you pay for a product, the less likely it is that the money will go to anyone nice.

      Quality and standards cost money. From Bezos' destruction of our town centres to Temu via the Shite off Shein we are paying for the "I can't believe it's so cheap" mentality

      1. Andy 73 Silver badge

        Re: "late-stage capitalism"

        It's not robber-baron capitalism if you have a choice to buy a product that meets your ethical requirements. Per the article - you do not have to buy from Shein or Temu. Nor do you have to shop at Amazon or Tesco or Walmart. Robber baron industrialists exploit a lack of choice, not the low morals of their customers.

        And... from an economic point of view, we actually do want low prices, and a system that encourages them. We want to do the least amount of work for the highest amount of reward - which involves maximising productivity and minimising costs. Hence we've gone from not being able to afford heating, plumbing and holidays to warm houses, hot water and trips to Australia in the middle of winter.

        Of course this will get down-votes from people who don't like Musk or Bezos or billionaires in general - but that ignores that non-capitalist countries have just as many problematic individuals, and (on the whole) a lot less central heating. It is possible to recognise that Musk is an asshat and also think that being warm in winter is a good thing.

  5. Dinanziame Silver badge
    Holmes

    The big reason Temu is winning

    Is that they spend way more on advertising. It sure as hell isn't quality

    1. graeme leggett Silver badge

      Re: The big reason Temu is winning

      I'm now thinking back if I saw any Temu advertising on YouTube between John Malecki "we bought power tools off Temu" videos.

  6. gnasher729 Silver badge

    Law change

    1. Make Temu, Shein responsible for quality like every store in the UK. Whoever builds or ships the product.

    2. Force them to sell the advertised product. If they sell a 64TB SSD for £4.99 force them to deliver one or several SSD with a total capacity of 64 TB, not “money back”.

  7. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

    Hopefully the lawsuit is short

    The lawyers aren't looking good after a few days. One caught fire and two are stuck walking into a wall like a broken NPC.

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