back to article Still waiting for a Pi 500 and wondering what do this summer?

Raspberry Pi enthusiasts unable to wait for the shelves to fill up with Pi-500 stock are starting to get creative. The Raspberry Pi 400 is getting a little long in the tooth these days. Initially launched in 2020, 12 months after the Raspberry Pi 4 made its debut, the computer-in-a-keyboard was a throwback to those halcyon …

  1. Sykowasp

    I hope it arrives by Autumn, and that it exposes the PCIe a little differently and conveniently since it will in inside a wide case, so hopefully room for custom PCIe expansions to have some space in there alongside (not on top of) the system board.

  2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

    Point

    Intel N100 is much better in almost every metric.

    Why bother with RPi?

    1. m4r35n357 Silver badge

      Re: Point

      Because we want to?

      Pretty sick of N100 spam . . .

      1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        Re: Point

        There are people who are into self harm...

        RPi missed the mark with that release. I bought RPi 5 a while ago and it's rubbish.

        1. m4r35n357 Silver badge

          Re: Point

          Pretty scummy reply.

        2. Neil Barnes Silver badge

          Re: Point

          ... and it's rubbish.

          It's always good to see a careful, considered, and generally well thought out criticism.

          1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

            Re: Point

            The PCIe implementation is half baked, good luck finding NVMe drive that will work with it and then build trust it is not going to randomly crap out.

            I couldn't get Ethernet to work reliably with the stock distribution and WiFi dies after few days and requires hard reboot.

            I don't have time to troubleshoot that pile of eWaste.

            1. Tom Chiverton 1

              Re: Point

              It might Just Be You ? Mine has been running a suite of Docker containers, such as PiHole, solidly, for months.

              1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

                Re: Point

                For sure it will be working for some people, after all, it has been released.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Point

              I've a pi 5 with a pimoroni nvme base, and it's quite choosey about the drives it will work with; I've got a WD drive that won't work, apparently because the nvme base can't supply enough power as the drive initialises. Howver, that's not a pi5 problem, it;s a problem with the nvme adapter. (Speaking for myself, I found it a bit annoying, but I went out and bought an el-cheapo nvme drive that was listed as working (I forget the brand) and it's been running home assistant for me 24/7 for a few months now, and it's noticably snappier than running on a pi4 with a USB to SSD adapter. (However, I suspect most of the improvement is the change from the USB interface, rather than the speed improvement from the pi 5)....

            3. TechnicalVault

              Oddly I'm using it as my desktop

              Managed to fry my main desktop a few months ago and grabbed a PI 5 as an emergency measure. Added an NVMe for longevity and voila it works for me. Honestly don't recognise the issues you describe.

            4. BartyFartsLast Silver badge

              Re: Point

              Literally the first 3 NVME drives I tried worked perfectly well.

              Maybe try not getting yours from e-waste and you'd have more success?

    2. Spazturtle Silver badge

      Re: Point

      N100 and N305 and Intel's most exciting CPUs from the past few years. Similar power draw to ARM CPUs of the same performance but with open drivers, cheaper and with the x86 ecosystem where you can just use a generic ISO to install the OS instead of needing a custom built ROM for each SOC.

      1. m4r35n357 Silver badge

        Re: Point

        Translation: I want to run Windoze and those nasty Pi people won't let me ;)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Point

          "I want to run a mainline x64 Linux because there isn't much that doesn't run on x64."

          1. m4r35n357 Silver badge

            Re: Point

            https://www.xda-developers.com/best-operating-systems-for-raspberry-pi-5/

            If you favourite is not on the list take it up with them!

            Personally, I would like to try OpenBSD on the Pi5 but I am prepared to wait.

        2. doublelayer Silver badge

          Re: Point

          No, that's not how it translates because of two things I think you probably already know:

          1. On an X64 processor, you don't need custom images of any operating system, and you usually don't need custom kernels either. On a Raspberry Pi, you definitely need custom images, and sometimes you also use custom kernels. On other ARM boards, you always need custom images, and you often use custom kernels. The more "custom" things you have in a build, the more annoying the process can be when something doesn't work as expected. For instance, in-place upgrades from one standard distribution to another are a pretty common test target and generally work well, whereas doing that with images sometimes breaks or just isn't available for a while, and if your kernel has patches which haven't been upstreamed, you may not get to update the kernel at all unless you can find the sources and try to patch it yourself.

          2. If you really do want to run Windows, the Raspberry Pi can do it. Probably better now, because the last time I tried, it was on a Pi 3B. Windows 10 didn't like the single gigabyte of RAM and, while it ran, it wasn't fun to use.

          If you insist on misstating what people say, you paint yourself, not as someone who understands the distinction and has a good argument, but someone who has a pointless adherence to a product without the knowledge to explain why. There are reasons to favor the Raspberry Pi, but you haven't stated any of them.

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: Point

            "1. On an X64 processor, you don't need custom images of any operating system, and you usually don't need custom kernels either. On a Raspberry Pi, you definitely need custom images, and sometimes you also use custom kernels. On other ARM boards, you always need custom images, and you often use custom kernels."

            What you are saying is that all computers should be based on Intel X86 CPUs and no other CPU or architecture is worth it because you have to compile an OS to run on non-X86? Well, I suppose it's a point of view. Not one I agree with, but if it works for you who am I to argue? Apple may not agree with you either. Nor, for that matter the Risc-V crowd. Even MS are building for ARM these days.

            1. doublelayer Silver badge

              Re: Point

              "What you are saying is that all computers should be based on Intel X86 CPUs and no other CPU or architecture is worth it because you have to compile an OS to run on non-X86?"

              Am I saying that? I don't remember saying that. However, I am pointing out that the original critique: "with the x86 ecosystem where you can just use a generic ISO to install the OS instead of needing a custom built ROM for each SOC" is correct, and not only for Windows.

              That is no reason why you can't use something else. It is one point in X86's favor, not the only thing to judge a CPU on, and certainly not a reason to ignore every other architecture whatsoever.

              Also, it's not about compiling the OS. Someone has to compile the kernel to run on anything, and that's either me or the distro maker, mostly them in practice. The distinction is just with the ease of portability and modification when standard firmware is involved. The solution to this that I'd like to see is not the destruction of ARM and the use of X64 everywhere, but instead standard firmware used on ARM chips. Neither of those things are going to happen, but if standard firmware for ARM happened, I'd be happy, and if destruction of ARM happened, I'd be unhappy. For one thing, I'd probably have to turn in all my Raspberry Pis for that to happen and I don't want to.

    3. Michael Strorm Silver badge

      Re: Point

      The N100 appears to be a CPU rather than a complete system.

      Recommended price is $55 apparently, so I assume everything else required will push that up, and will the resulting system end up being anything like a Pi, or just a low-end PC? Which isn't what the Pi was really ever meant to be.

      On top of which, no-one claims that the RPi is the best in pure bang for the buck terms- you've long been able to buy similarly-named Chinese knockoffs if that's your main priority.

      The Pi's ecosystem and support is as much a part of the appeal.

      1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        Re: Point

        You can buy complete N100 mini PC cheaper than similarly specced RPi 5

        .

        1. Michael Strorm Silver badge

          Re: Point

          Feel free to provide a link or example, which I'd have thought you'd have done anyway.

          But I suspect that even if such machines exist, they're not going to fill the same niche as the Pi.

          If the N100- based system was closer to what you wanted, good for you. Let us know how you got on with it.

          1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

            Re: Point

            An example

            https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006997281548.html here shows £80.

            add 20% VAT to the price.

            Bare RPi5 costs £76.80 plus add NVMe HAT, case and a drive. You are going to spend some money on drive lottery until you find one that boots at all.

            1. m4r35n357 Silver badge

              Re: Point

              The Pi5 does not need an SSD. They are for boot time and application launch time fetishists. Run stuff from memory (up to 8GB) and leave everything running! Extra storage comes over the network.

              ian@azathoth Wed Aug 14 11:29 am ~

              $ uptime

              11:29:09 up 36 days, 19:38, 2 users, load average: 0.39, 0.16, 0.11

              But if your use case includes starting, closing and re-starting the same applications all day, and constant rebooting, you probably wont get it . . .

              1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

                Re: Point

                Then why did they include something that doesn't work?

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Point

                  It *does* work, so maybe it's a skill issue?

                2. m4r35n357 Silver badge

                  Re: Point

                  Explain "doesn't work"?

                  1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

                    Re: Point

                    PCIe is not compatible with many drives.

                    1. werdsmith Silver badge

                      Re: Point

                      Skill issue then. Confirmed.

                      Just choose a device off the compatible list, like hardware since forever.

              2. doublelayer Silver badge

                Re: Point

                Nothing needs an SSD; I could boot my laptop off a USB disk and it would still work. However, one of the selling points of the Pi 5 was that you could use an SSD, which is sometimes relevant. One of the cases where it is especially relevant is in a desktop computer, such as the one the article is about. I don't want to hold every application I might want to run in 8 GB of RAM. That wouldn't leave me a lot of RAM for memory-intensive things. Nor do I want to get another computer to provide network storage and run a Pi as a thick client that still has to execute everything. If I'm doing that, I might as well run the computing on the server providing the storage and use an earlier Pi as an actual thin client.

                Fortunately for me, I wouldn't have to, because that's one of the main reasons why NVME was added. I don't know how well it works because I haven't bought a Pi 5 (there's a cap somewhere for how many Raspberry Pis you can have before you have a problem, and I might be near it). I wouldn't be surprised to hear that elsergiovolador's summary of reliability is simplistic. However, your response that nobody needs it kind of sounds like you also think it doesn't work and are trying to make excuses for that.

                1. m4r35n357 Silver badge

                  Re: Point

                  Check your reading comprehension.

                  1. doublelayer Silver badge

                    Re: Point

                    You weren't actually that subtle making your suggestions that, instead of using an SSD, I run stuff from RAM:

                    "Run stuff from memory (up to 8GB)"

                    or use network storage:

                    "Extra storage comes over the network."

                    So I didn't have any problems comprehending your suggestions. I just didn't like them for use as a desktop.

                    Maybe you're accusing me of misunderstanding you because of this part:

                    "However, your response that nobody needs it kind of sounds like you also think it doesn't work and are trying to make excuses for that."

                    If it was, you might note that I said that it "sounds like", not it "definitely is". I'm pointing out how someone could interpret your comment when they know the benefits of SSDs. I doubt you have any experience testing whether or not the SSDs work because, from your comment, you don't need them for your uses. However, as a response to someone claiming that they don't work, this isn't very convincing and neither is being told that, since you don't need one, I don't need one either. So if that's what you had in mind, it seems the misunderstanding was on the other end.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Point

              You probably forgot customs.

              1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

                Re: Point

                Customs typically adds 20% VAT as mentioned and a small charge. Still cheaper than RPi 5.

              2. katrinab Silver badge

                Re: Point

                If your entire order is below £135 including shipping, then there won't be customs charges. Ali Express is responsisble for ensure that VAT is charged on it.

            3. Michael Strorm Silver badge

              Re: Point

              That certainly looks like a lot of computer for the money, in the advert at least.

              So- as I asked previously- how did you get on with that model personally? For someone so dismissive of the RPi based on alleged flaws that you only discovered through personal experience, I assume you'd have judged the N100-based design by the same criteria.

              Or did you just pick the cheapest model you could use to make your point from AliExpress and judge it off the spec sheet?

              I mean, for someone being so forceful with their opinion regarding the N100, I assume you'd have personal experience of- and be able to recommend- a particular system?

              Regardless, no-one claimed that the Raspberry Pi was the dirt-cheapest in pure bang-for-buck terms nor the ideal choice for every use case, and it sounds like it's not what you're looking for personally. That doesn't mean that your choice for what you want it for is the best for everyone else.

              1. Maximus Decimus Meridius

                Re: Point

                I bought one of these (16G, 512G version) for £98 delivered back in mid April. Installed Linux and using it as an experimental machine. Works well for me. Speed is good.

                I was looking at a Pi 5 having already got Pis 1-4, but by the time I priced everything up, the N100 was cheaper and there were more options for OS's.

                I am not dissing the Pi, but the N100 as a desktop machine seems better. It may be different answer if I was using the I/O or camera.

            4. PaulHayes

              Re: Point

              ok, how about from a UK based supplier who will actually honour any kind of warranty and you don't run the risk of receiving a bag of sand instead of whatever you ordered?

              Aliexpress is a minefield for fraud.

            5. elaar

              Re: Point

              "https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006997281548.html"

              How many GPIO does it have? People seem to forget that the Rpi are usually aimed at hobbyists that are going to tinker and hook things up, rather than being simply used as mini PCs.

            6. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

              Re: Point

              I recently reread a blog article I wrote about 8 years ago trying to find a single board computer for a semi-embedded system - for various USB-related reasons, long since resolved, a Pi was off the list. I tested and rejected, in order: Beaglebone Black (OS unreliable and maintained by one volunteer), Hummingboard i2ex (overheated until parts fell off board), FitPC3 (power issues), FitPC4 (intermittent failure undiagnosable by manufacturer), Odroid C2 (failed to boot when loaded with too many USB devices). And every one of these of these looked absolutely perfect on paper.

              Eventually I bought a Pi3, which was the only one that actually worked, and kept working.

              Which eventually brings me to my point: it's not just about the price and it's not just about the hardware. You need a software stack that is well-designed, well-tested and maintained, and on that front the Raspberry Pi foundation has form. There's a reason they've have been adopted by industry.

        2. timrowledge

          Re: Point

          But then you have an intel x86/64 machine and as everyone with decent taste knows, an intel x86 is a waste of perfectly good sand.

      2. mirachu Bronze badge

        Re: Point

        Radxa x4 4GB is something like USD60, so that recommended price isn't exactly descriptive. I can't imagine 4GB DDR5, a 2.5G NIC, some USB A ports, an M.2 connector, 2 micro-HDMIs, wifi+bt plus supporting components come in under 5 bucks and leave a margin for profit.

    4. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: Point

      Intel N100 is much better in almost every metric.

      Why bother with RPi

      Why don't people like what I like, because it's all about meeeeeeeeeeeeee!

      I don't need an N100 thanks, I've already got computers with more powerful Intel x64 processors, several. I don't need another one.

      So do what you want, leave me alone.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Point

        >Intel N100 is much better in almost every metric.

        Well I got a Macbook air from a yard sale and it's better than an N100 so ner-ner-ne-ner-ner

  3. Michael Strorm Silver badge

    > There's a certain retro-chic to Barnatt's [custom-built Pi 500]. While the color was apparently chosen to mimic that of the original Amiga 500

    I clicked the video link, and the colour looks more like an aged and yellowed Amiga 500, certainly not the light cream/beige it would have been when new.

    (It even has the mismatched key colour you see in devices where the plastic in different components has aged at a different rate).

    A similar complaint was made about that mini Atari 400 replica that came out recently.

    Are people under the impression that's what all those vintage computers looked like originally, or were *meant* to look like? Or do some *want* them to look like degraded 40-year old antiques, even if that's not flattering?

  4. Bebu
    Windows

    If you want pretty...

    I guess you have to be patient.

    I, being more of the Heath Robinson persuasion, opted for a AUD4.00 plastic food storage container with a lid big enough to bolt on a USB SSD and four sawn off plastic masonry plugs as standoffs from the container's bottom for the RPi5. A few holes in the sides for the power and peripherals and cooking with gas.

    For pretty you might Velcro® the box to the back of the monitor which I did with an earlier RPi2 version after I discovered the monitor's USB port could supply enough current for the Pi.

    I believe the USB SSD isn't that much slower than NVMe HATs and compared to booting off a SD card much, much faster with both Raspberry Pi OS and AlmaLinux 8. The networking wifi, ethernet just worked.

    A mechanical keyboard, decent monitor and mouse the system is actually quite usable.

    Of course I have prettier, cheaper refurbished x86_64 units that have NVMe, better graphics and much faster but if you want to tinker with something a bit different or with an element of challenge these systems, RPis and their like, are rather attractive.

    Horses for courses.

  5. Spoobistle

    Hot wiring

    I'd like to see better power supply arrangements, the RPi's taste for fiddly little USB connectors doesn't fill me with confidence.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hot wiring

      The old one had microusb, at least USB C is a massive improvement. I agree to an extent though.

  6. Irongut Silver badge

    The Raspberry Pi is not a device for tinkerers and hobbyists to do their worst – the "foundation" has made that clear over the years.

    They're more interested in the industrial and surveillance markets than hobbyists or education.

    No doubt the fan army will downvote this like they have other critical posts but the RPi Foundation lost my trust and that of many others years ago by failing to deliver and hiring a police state fetishist.

    I bought the first few models but no longer have any interest in waiting to buy another RPi.

    1. m4r35n357 Silver badge

      I am on both sides of this fence, (I was booted off the forum during lockdown over the prioritization issue - for basically saying Eben just wanted a yacht - several years before the actual flotation), but I like the reasonably-priced and well-supported M$-free technology.

      Have at it, downvoters!

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Few care. 60 million and counting.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Find me it in the Pi400 form factor and I'm all in. Otherwise I'll wait for the Pi500.

  8. druck Silver badge

    More portable

    I never found the Pi 400 format compelling, as my Raspberry Pi's which aren't headless are sharing monitors and full size keyboards with other machines, and those that are connected to TVs use mini wireless keyboards with trackpads, so no trailing power or HDMI cables.

    What I am lacking is a portable solution, i.e. a Pi 5 with a built in keyboard and small screen I take to where my headless Pis are, to checkout any issues. I am happy to mains power it, but if it had a battery, it would also make a good basic laptop.

    1. doublelayer Silver badge

      Re: More portable

      You could build something out of it, but I'm not sure how useful it will be. Unless you're willing to use a really small screen, you'll probably make the package bulkier to add a screen large enough that you're willing to use it, and a small USB keyboard is easily obtained but will make internal cable management tricky. I've built similar things out of Pis before, and they worked, but they were always more ungainly than a normal laptop. The footprint of my box was smaller, but it had to be taller to get everything in and wider if I didn't want to trail cables.

      Incidentally, also from experience, the only reason you can accomplish your goal is being willing to mains power it. Pis do terribly with batteries and the Pi 5 is the most power hungry of all of them. You can use a USB battery for charging phones which will be relatively cheap and last a while if you get one of the larger and heavier options, but the Pi can't measure its capacity, so if you forget to charge it, expect power to be lost at an inconvenient time. You could instead get one of the battery systems intended for use with a Pi which will get around that in exchange for costing a ton more than the other option and generally being limited to a few 18650s which will give you a few minutes of battery life. I've wanted a Pi-powered laptop since the Pi 2 became available, and they've had them for a while, but battery life is always one of the worst features.

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