back to article Microsoft pushing, pushing, pushing Edge in Defender slammed as a 'dark pattern'

In its ongoing effort to boost the usage of its Edge browser, Microsoft is marketing the software to users of its Defender security suite with an unusual prompt – and is drawing criticism for blurring a line between advising and advertising. The tactic, a reader who works as a CTO told us, amounts to a "dark pattern" – an …

  1. 0laf Silver badge

    MS have made some terrible choices with their most recent OS but this nagging bullshit to use the turd that is Edge has been going on too long. Just feckin stop already.

    You've already pissed me off so much you've actually motivated my lazy arse to switch my desktop to Linux. To be clear that's an impressive level of irritation since I hate switching OS. Just not as much as I now hate MS.

    1. MJI Silver badge

      I did a few months ago, and it is a lot less stressful.

    2. b1k3rdude

      I havent used edge pretty much since day one, and prefered to use Chromium. But recently I migrated away from that to Thorium. And even then its only use is as a secondary browser, Firefox is still my weapon of choice.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I don't know why you'd want to, but I had the misfortune to use edge on ubuntu recently to test something.

      It didn't work on that either, so I promptly uninstalled it again. It's no better than the windows version. I'm sticking with Chrome for now

    4. MachDiamond Silver badge

      "You've already pissed me off so much you've actually motivated my lazy arse to switch my desktop to Linux. To be clear that's an impressive level of irritation since I hate switching OS. Just not as much as I now hate MS."

      I run MacOS, Linux and Windows. I find the Mac more suited for day to day email, web, etc. Linux has a strong suite of programs for science, engineering and internet back end/underneath. Windows is only around to test compatibility and run applications that aren't available for the first two and that machine/partition isn't allow to go online.

      1. skiew

        Read the stats, Windows now, has way fewer and very complex and elaborates threats and vulnerabilities. Apple last week had 102 CVEs, usually numbers arent that meaningful, but this ten times more than the next one. Which is the linux kernel... but they admit it and communicate, this normal, Apple never, they are the most secure... but you have to reverse the rankings for that.

        While MacOS has (more or less) half the the number of lines of code as the Nvidia driver... It's a piece of joke, that can't do anything more than not much. An design and build critical systems, systemic, because if they fail, no one can pay in Belgium... didn't happen in ten years, but the last riots happened. And I know what I am talking about, can prove it or explain... I use Linux a lot, Windows a lot, and I have a Mac, I am passionate about computing, so even a Mac may have interest,, it's there with dust, because there is nothing to do with it...

    5. LybsterRoy Silver badge

      I recently bought a replacement laptop for use when watching TV (you know the "I know that actor but who is he/she" problem). It came with W11 installed and I was so impressed with the setup and especially Edge that its now running Linux Mint.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        "I was so impressed with the setup and especially Edge that its now running Linux Mint."

        Exactly, if there's no reason you have to have Windows, linux is going to be much better.

    6. skiew

      I LOVE IT.

      Have you ever used Edge? no, could you provide any proof or element about your smart, highly educated and visionary statements?? No need, they are true because you're so biased and brainwashed and you deeply believe what you say. Bias, believe, I've heard, raise concerns... you're living in in a world of maybe or rumor has... you, and you're not alone, in a reality that is so wrong.

      And nobody knows where this comes from... because Microsoft had never been into tracking people, never, and of all the things they were accused of are alike, because check articles 20 years ago the same bullshits were said, Microsoft presented a security platform and some academics or supposedly experts explained how encrypting data was some way to control you and your computer, and probably they entered the house by the chimneys in red outfits (I hope they lost any credit and live under a bridge... you cannot be a scientist - or a Jounalist by the way, and so vocally spread entirely made up things, which is illegal too, and this is psychosis, so I am sorry for the person, mental health issues are hard to handle. And reading that 20 years later, when most of those technologies have been implemented for everyone and every OS, and never tracked anyone, could let you think people were very stupid back then, like we imagine the middle-age people were (they weren't but had no education and where living in a world where all they knew was believing,) an at the time, some people had balls, and critical thinking still was around, and realize the craziness that situation was: and said that "attacking the latest Microsoft monster is an international blood sport" and that "even if Microsoft had a new technology capable of ending Third World hunger and First World obesity, digital seers would still lambaste it because they view Bill Gates as a grey incarnation of Satan." and this wasn't new, (because Steve Jobs started it with "MS copied us", they did not, at all, and Jobs sued quite a few times companies that copied him, all clearly one of his obsessions, and tried again in the 90s when Microsoft was so innovative, like today, they made some genius things, any honest technical person must agree to that, performances, that repeats quite often) Apple, no one knows what they did at the time, and Jobs had been fired anyway. Satan Bill Gates, who will be remembered as some genius technically and for hi so many strategic decisions that he got right, just like Microsoft will be recognized for it's huge impact on computing... Microsoft Reasearch is the biggest institution in computing, but not only. They are famous for that, when you are or have been trained as a scientist.. Just read a book by Gates, or listen to a podcast, he's passionate, spontaneous, likeable, so smart because he can speak of biology or sociology and anything, and still interesting, and never exaggerate, and clearly is a nice guy, he spoke of his daughter, like any good dad would, ha was so proud of her, because she was a good engineer now, you cannot fake that, and he has no reason to anyway...

      Telemetry's is spying, Copilot is spying, TPM2 was spying but today isn't THE secure chip, newer there are in phones, MS has one, in Xbox, and the Surface... yet requiring it for Win 11 (it's from 2006-7 so not novelty) is unacceptable, so people whine about the cause, the solution and invent the problems, and for the exact opposite reason they where whining 20 years ago. So Sos much for the stupid middle age people, this is worse.

      Edge is a good case, it is known to be very privacy focused by honest people, and has many strong features implemented, and many cool an useful ones on the side, and is probably the best at the moment. And sync is instant, which is very useful, if you don't suffer from paranoid illness... and have a Microsoft account like almost all the 1.6 billion users of Windows. So many things, but security breaks websites, not compliant, but the other browsers are also on the same path, except Google of course, so when something doesn't work use Chrome, it was designed to pump as much of your data like all other Google services... It seems like it's a secret, because people rant about Microsoft while happily using pure tracking apps done by google, which once again, is a ridiculous situation.

      And telemetry so evil, and of course, spying, people should be period in more imaginative ways. A little effort please. But what isn't known, yet no one is hiding it, is that telemetry is very useful, statistics, and tracking no one, but and this is where you should all feel a little stupid, is in al OS, iOS, the Mac "OS", let's not mention android, even big Linux distro, and most apps, even Proton's and this website too. And house appliances too. But this afternoon I saw yet another script, for Visual Studio Code, so pure FOSS, that is the most used programming editor in the world, because it is very good, and is funded by Microsoft, but not only, yet he had made a script to block even extensions update checks. And was quite proud, limit pretentious. He just forgot one little detail... extensions have telemetry, and so he blocked updates, while having 50 extensions doing telemetry... which is nothing wrong, and is always described, and help make apps better. But mainly, made the guy a fool, and clearly clueless, because he would check his network, or read the extension page, he'd know. But people don't read, this might jeopardize their beliefs. We are vastly stupider than we were in the middle age. Because we have access to so much science and knowledge, and information, and also this is so naive and so not plausible, yet this kind of tales and legends, are so widespread...

      And this already way too long but is only one thing out of thousands of others... please, believe the earth is flat, that God made us, not evolution, and leave Microsoft alone, or learn they have so much to offer Unlike experts like the author of the previous message, geniuses that hate them, because they believe. Read, think, inform yourself on honest news outlets, in Europe they are common, in the US, read the big papers, because they speak about apple practices, and make articles about Micrsoft being world leader in security, and thech news, maks upo tales. I don't know what to say. It's up to you believe in senseless lies, or know, using much simpler explanations; Occam's razor works much Beter than made up plots by an evil spying company, which in fact does so much for the people and communities. Also, they probably do it because we are all so important, this is bit the idea behind all this too. It's really not that hard to investigate and realkize and know who does what. You'll feeel a bit of shame when you'll realize, but after, you'll be informed correctly, and not on verge of a psychotic break...

      And in 20 someone will read this and will say they were stupid, at the time, and I bet nothing will be different. Wea re regressing, weel, not all of use, but we are.

  2. mahan

    What's new?

    Microsoft's practice of leveraging their extensive platform to aggressively promote their products is not an exception but rather their modus operandi.

    They have, at times, forcefully installed Windows 10 on Windows 7 computers. "Oh, look how quickly Windows 10 usage has increased this last quarter!"

    They bundled Teams with Office, leading to claims like, "Oh, look how much better Teams must be than the competition! Customers are fleeing from the competitors!"

    They are also promoting Edge in ways that could be seen as anti-competitive.

    For example, when attempting to download Firefox via Edge on a newly installed Windows 10 computer, users are presented with a full page of information claiming that Edge is superior to Firefox.

    Monopolists will monopolize.

    1. bud-weis-er

      Re: What's new?

      Yeah, was helping my kid do his homework on his school windows laptop (daddy uses linux and mac).

      First search brought back results off the internet when he was looking for a local file. Then, in word, he started getting messages that he'd used all his grammatical suggestions and to get more required a different plan. wtf?

      1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        Re: What's new?

        As far as I can tell, Windows Search is incapable of finding stuff on your computer. Even if you are searching for something in your Program Files tree, it will ignore it and show results from the web.

        Beyond useless.

        1. Chasxith
          Linux

          Re: What's new?

          Can't speak so much for Win 11 but for Win 10 the search seems to decide for itself if it's going to search your local files or the internet, presumably based on moon phase and atmospheric pressure.

          I haven't yet figured out what criteria it uses to determine that you're searching Bing rather than locally....who signs off on stuff like this?

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: What's new?

            "I haven't yet figured out what criteria it uses to determine that you're searching Bing rather than locally."

            Their just trying to be helpful because, obviously, you have no clue.

            The constant hand-holding drives me bonkers.

            1. LybsterRoy Silver badge

              Re: What's new?

              Did you use a MS grammar checker there? Their -> They're (or they are)

          2. MJI Silver badge

            Re: What's new?

            got 11 at work, and it takes multiple goes to find wordpad

        2. LybsterRoy Silver badge

          Re: What's new?

          Now that you mention it that was another factor in putting Mint on - I tried to find Control Panel and received a load of web pages.

    2. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
      Pint

      Re: What's new?

      This is why I keep a Ninite installer file\link on a USB or network drive so I don't have to touch edge to install.

    3. Michael Strorm Silver badge

      Re: What's new?

      > Microsoft's practice of leveraging their extensive platform to aggressively promote their products is not an exception but rather their modus operandi.

      They've pretty much always abused their monopoly. But it's become far worse in the past decade, to the point of being outright and *directly* malicious to end users in a way it hadn't been in the past. As you note...

      > They have, at times, forcefully installed Windows 10 on Windows 7 computers.

      Oh, that's exactly the example I was thinking of and about to mention.

      The same company that intentionally and shamelessly exploited Windows Update to push "Upgrade to Windows 10" and- much worse- shamelessly exploited and undermined the trust that its users and the safety of their systems depended upon by intentionally mislabelling that as an essential security update?

      And they're now exploiting Defender in a similar manner to railroad their users again? Yeah, that's a fucking surprise.

      Utterly low-rent disreputable trash.

      (*) And the fact that this was just one of many scummy tactics they used which got them compared to malware by even bland, mainstream IT publications and which I and countless others called them out on?

    4. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: What's new?

      "For example, when attempting to download Firefox via Edge on a newly installed Windows 10 computer, users are presented with a full page of information claiming that Edge is superior to Firefox."

      If you have no hope competing on merits, Cheat. Have a law passed, whatever. What's the point in working hard to make a quality product when you can have the competition tie up in legal actions.

      See any parallels?

    5. Sentar

      Re: What's new?

      I also Don't use TEAMS or Co-Pilot both are too expensive for a single user on a small group of personal (Main-Notebook-Test System) and I hate that Microsoft has made the out of reach. I'm on Win11 PRO all 3 mid-range systems and a Family 365.

      Unless Microsoft make the more affordable for single users They will continue to lose share.

  3. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Windows

    Edge for Business

    What's the point ?

    Businesses already have it, personal users won't take it.

    This is really marketing trying to justify its existence.

    1. 0laf Silver badge

      Re: Edge for Business

      Data gathering. If you use Chrome, Google get's your data, if you use Edge, MS gets it. If you use Facebook, Meta gets it. If you use Firefox, Opera etc none on them get it (but probably someone else does lets be honest) and MS really really wants to be the one that gobbles up your data.

      1. Snake Silver badge

        Re: data gathering

        Thank you for saying this, I thought I was the only one thinking like this. "Microsoft was prompting me to use Edge rather than Chrome". And that would be better, how, exactly...???

        Personally I trust Google even *less* than I trust MS but I seem to be the only one who thinks this way.

        1. mahan

          Re: data gathering

          If someone tries to strongly convince me to choose an option, I usually react so negatively that I end up choosing anything else except the forced alternative.

          JetBrains pushed their stupid AI extension so hard in their IDEs (with a subscription naturally) that it made me completely ignore it. It might be the best thing since sliced bread, but I wouldn't know because after they strong-armed me, I wouldn’t touch it with a 10-foot pole.

          1. Snake Silver badge

            Re: strongarming

            I'll admit I am rather the same way, figuring if you're having to result to strongarming me then your supplied option must not be that great - if it *was* great, it should be able to stand for itself.

            But the universe often ignores my wishes, constantly pushing me into things or making me suffer for its desires. So the option left was to simply ignore the world.

        2. veti Silver badge

          Re: data gathering

          You're not the only one, no. Microsoft at least is transparent about wanting to take money off you as many ways as they can. You can see them coming a mile off.

          Google is much more indirect and insidious about it. It's by far the more evil of the two at this point.

          I use Firefox most of the time, Edge occasionally (there's nothing wrong with it, IMO), Safari when on an Apple platform, and Chrome never, except for testing purposes.

        3. FIA Silver badge

          Re: data gathering

          Thank you for saying this, I thought I was the only one thinking like this. "Microsoft was prompting me to use Edge rather than Chrome". And that would be better, how, exactly...???

          You're giving your data to MS rather than Google. (I get it's a "douchbag or turd" comparison, but still...)

          Personally I trust Google even *less* than I trust MS but I seem to be the only one who thinks this way.

          I'm with you, I don't like MS, as I'm old enough to remember them in the 90s. But weirdly I kind of trust their untrustworthiness, as at least I'm their customer who they're trying to antipattern.

          With google I'm not their customer, I'm a component in their advertising revenue generation pipeline.

          Both are bad, but at least if they're trying to screw money out of me there's a little hope.

      2. druck Silver badge

        Re: Edge for Business

        It's OK, if they can't get your data through Edge, there is always Windows Telemetry.

  4. mpi
    Angel

    And every day, every decision to use a modern Linux Desktop as daily driver...

    ...is getting more and more justified.

    I use Arch btw.

  5. Julian Poyntz

    NextCloud

    now looking at this, as quite frankly, OneDrive is the only thing keeping me on windoze due to its simplicity and it just "works" across all our devices.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: NextCloud

      You haven't read the OneDrive ToS, have you?

      1. Hubert Cumberdale Silver badge

        Re: NextCloud

        Genuinely curious. Is there a specific issue in the OneDrive ToS that I should know about? (No, I've not read them properly...)

        1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge
          Windows

          Re: NextCloud

          I'm guessing we won't see any kind of factual answer to this question. Which is a shame, as a heavy user of OneDrive I'm curious, too.

          GJC

    2. 0laf Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: NextCloud

      If you must use it (and tbh I do too) it's acessible via a (non-Edge) browser on Linux or an app/Safari on iOS.

      As OneDrive itself nags you "why not get onedrive for Android". And again on the same same topic as the article it'll nag you to insanity about it even if you don't use Android or in fact even if you do and you have downloaded it. I have a 365 subscription (for my sins) and MS still relentlessly nags me to try 365. So don't think coughing up money to MS to make it all go away will actually work.

    3. mahan

      Re: NextCloud

      I can highly recommend Nextcloud. I've been using it for 5 years, both in the company and privately, and it is working really good.

      The fine grained access control, the ability to add accounts all with their own or shared spaces and even making a temporary download (or upload!) link that you can text to a friend or paste in an email are great.

      You can open a markdown document in two browsers at the same time to share text between devices, that update live on both.

      I use it on Linux, iOS (iPhone) and Windows. Naturally you'll have to verify if it works on the devices you use.

      1. carl0s

        Re: NextCloud

        I've considered next cloud for a customer but it regularly wants to update and requires admin permissions to do its update.

  6. navarac Silver badge

    It is one thing to advertise.....

    Although I think we all hate adverts, there is one thing worse; misleading users to swap their usage of software by using dubious marketing tricks.

    Marketing people are as much use as telephone sanitisers in outer space (with acknowledgement to Douglas Adams btw!).

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Azure Arc Setup in Server 2022

    An update to Windows Server 2022 added a new tray icon for setting up Azure Arc. Except it doesn't actually set anything up, it's just an ad for Azure Arc; if you actually want to use it, there's another installation. Or at least that's my understanding. As I saw it on a server of ours that doesn't have general internet access, it's useless - but requires a reboot OF A SERVER to properly uninstall.

    1. skiew

      Re: Azure Arc Setup in Server 2022

      Yeah I heard this one too, Windows server is the place for ads... it known.

  8. h0bbes

    And so it begins (again)...

    It seems that Microsoft has forgotten about what happened to them in the late '90's after they used their clout to force-feed Internet Explorer to their partners and end-users.

    1. Someone Else Silver badge

      Re: And so it begins (again)...

      Kidz these days...

  9. Marty McFly Silver badge
    Coat

    Huh, what?

    I'm still in the camp "Use Internet Explorer to download Chrome" as its only function in life.

    You mean Microsoft has a different browser for me to ignore?

    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: Huh, what?

      You miss-spelled Edge and Firefox.

  10. mcato

    Is it any different than using Edge/Firefox/etc to open GMail and having Google admonish you (in a pop-over) that you should really use Chrome instead? They all do it.

    1. TheWeetabix Bronze badge

      I don't know, is a slap any different from a tickle?

      I didn't just spend 3 grand on the PC to have it advertise. Google Im not paying for, so go ahead.

    2. FirstTangoInParis Silver badge

      Yeah but it's still just a 'we'd rather you used Chrome' because there's probably some wizzy accelerators in Chrome that Google take advantage of. And testing against. But just having MS run roughshod over all your preferences and insist on only working with Edge is likely to raise eyebrows with the competition regulators. Unless it's the US big business mentality of 'it's happening this way, eff you, sue us if you want'.

  11. Andrew Scott Bronze badge

    edge

    surprised recently when i clicked on a link in an email on my phone and had Microsoft offer to download, install, and open the link in edge on my pixel phone. Very annoying. do use outlook as it's the official email at work.

    1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

      Re: edge

      That is one for the helldesk, especially if Edge won't install because you don't have admin rights. And if it installs despite not having admin rights, you should notify the helldesk about a security failure.

  12. FirstTangoInParis Silver badge

    Outlook on iOS too

    So on clicking a weblink in Outlook for iOS asks to open Edge without giving an alternative. Even though Safari is configured as my default browser, and Edge knows that. WHY???? I only use Outlook at all because you can’t open Exchange shared mailboxes in anything else.

  13. steviebuk Silver badge

    Role on Microsoft v The US Government Part II

    Needs to happen. They were pulling this same shit back in the 90s with IE and they were pulled up on it, eventually, yet they are doing it again with Edge.

  14. Sentar

    I use Defender and Advanced Defender and SHUN EDGE..

    I use Defender and Advanced Defender for my Anti-Virus and Security on my systems ONLY.

    I hate Edge and only use it when I have to.

    My WEB use is using Chrome fully updated and secured.

    1. Someone Else Silver badge

      Re: I use Defender and Advanced Defender and SHUN EDGE..

      ...and still leaking like a sieve...

    2. skiew

      Re: I use Defender and Advanced Defender and SHUN EDGE..

      Chrome secure and private too ? pfffff it's madness and is clearly a problem of having no education, nor personal thinking, or you lived in a cave the last 25 years... and do not know that Google sellls ads, and that's it, 232 billion last year, and Chrome is one way of pumping your data. It's common knowledge, but most people ignore it on purpose or not, it's ignorance in both cases.

  15. BenMyers

    It's not only Edge

    My laptop has Windows 11 installed, and every time it boots up, it nags me to set up one version of Teams or another. I have no present need to use Teams, so Ctrl-Alt-Del and Task Manager seems to be the only way to rid my system of the setu-up-Teams app. This does not appear to be controlled by the launch of a program during startuo, so I can't edit the list of program to run at startup. Hard coded? Sheesh! How serious can Microsoft get pushing its own unwanted products? Anybody know how to eliminate this annoyance? Of course, it will come right back with the next Windows up date to improve security and to peddle its products.

  16. Smartypantz

    Antifeatures and lazyness

    If you use "Chrome" or Edge" you either:

    1. Like to bend over and hand over your shit to the tech-titans

    2. Are to ignorant to realize how the Internet works these days

  17. PerlyKing
    Thumb Down

    I gave it a chance...

    New job, Edge is the default browser, I figured I'd give it a go. Until it decided that one of the internal web sites has to be rendered in "IE mode", which doesn't work and there's no way to override it. Numpties.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    MS are the kings of anti-competitive behavior

    I'm surprised no-one has mentioned that regular and random 'we just need to finish setting up your computer' scenario from Windows (despite my PC being happily setup to my liking for years) that basically just tries to get me to switch to Edge - if that isn't monopolistic behaviour then I don't know what is?

    The strange thing though is that the US DoJ seems to be going after every tech giant except MS - when MS are abusing their position in the OS and Office suite on soooo many fronts I'm losing track. They all need to be kept in check, but why are the regulators seeming to avert their gaze from MS?

    They've been doing if since before Google, Meta and Amazon were even a twinkle in their founders' eyes, and they continue to do so without any action from regulators. And before anyone mentions the IE action years ago, that achieved precisely the square root of didly squat (hence current behavior)

    If DoJ are considering the option to split Android OS from Google then I why on earth wouldn't they be considering doing the same with MS and Windows? Lobbying and campaign funds anyone?

  19. tiago.pelicari

    Let them know that's unacceptable. Thanks Reg for sharing.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like