back to article Getting up close and personal with Concorde, Concordski, and Buran

The Register's Geek's Guide series for explorers who love feats of tech and engineering prowess took a trip to the European mainland to see exhibits ranging from an Air France Concorde and a Soviet Tupolev Tu-144 "Concordski" to a Buran prototype, alongside various industrial marvels. The spot? Well there are two of them: The …

  1. Neil Barnes Silver badge
    Go

    I'm convinced...

    There will be a visit in the near future, even though it's a six-hour drive from Berlin. When we drive past it returning from paraglider holidays in France or Slovenia, we _always_ utter the immortal words 'we must go there sometime...'

    So now I can show this to SWMBO, and persuade her it's a good idea.

    Thanks!

    1. I am David Jones Silver badge

      Re: I'm convinced...

      “We must go there sometime...“

      Exactly the same for us (well, me)! It’s halfway on a long trip we regularly make.

      1. LogicGate Silver badge

        Re: I'm convinced...

        The spiraling slides down from underneath the aircraft in Speyer are very popular with smaller (and bigger) children. Makes them climb up to the aircraft more than once.

        The atmosphere in Speyer is indeed one of "over the top private collector(s)", with interesting tidbits that would normally be overlooked as irrelevant by "serious" museums.

        If you wish to see desperation in steel, taker a look at the one man torpedo on exhibition https://speyer.technik-museum.de/en/one-man-torpedo

        1. LogicGate Silver badge

          Re: I'm convinced...

          By the way, if you fly over ("Frankfurt") - Hahn or drive past Trier or Luxembourg, then there is another "Private collection gone mad" that is well worth taking a look at.:

          "Flugaustellung P Junior" https://www.flugausstellung.de/

          An impression of the outdoor bit can be had here:

          https://www.google.com/maps/@49.6857247,6.9602616,423m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

          The indoor exhibits are also interesting.

          1. Ken G Silver badge

            Re: I'm convinced...

            Good to know, Speyer is a 3 hour drive for me, that's less than half that. It turns an overnight into a day trip.

            1. Ken G Silver badge

              Re: I'm convinced...

              I visited last Saturday, well worth a few hours. I was a bit disappointed there wasn't any access to interiors of aircraft and that that most seemed neglected with no attempt at restoration or maintenance.

              The Concorde café only takes cash.

        2. David 132 Silver badge

          Re: I'm convinced...

          >The spiraling slides down from underneath the aircraft in Speyer are very popular with smaller (and bigger) children...

          On that note, a shout-out to the Evergreen Air & Space Museum, not too far from me here in Oregon - admittedly, a little further than Germany for many Reg readers.

          Among other delights (including the Spruce Goose! and an SR-71 Blackbird!), there is a waterpark right next door to it, with a 747 mounted on the roof of the building - and water-slides down from the fuselage back into the main pool. Possibly the only place on Earth, with the possible exception of the Hudson river (too soon?) where you can slide out of a plane straight into water.

          I wonder if the Reg would like to do a feature on this museum, too?

          1. LogicGate Silver badge

            Re: I'm convinced...

            Been there, done that, worth the visit.

            Interestingly, to the best of my knowledge, Evergreen International Airlines has its roots in CIA's secret airline -"Air America"- from the Vietnam War era (One of the few known CIA covers to have run with a strong profit.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_International_Airlines

            1. David 132 Silver badge

              Re: I'm convinced...

              Yep. And also provided the aircraft for the final scene in Die Hard 2 - or at least, the exterior shots of the plane taxiing along as Bruce Willis is about to drop onto it from the TV news helicopter. They blanked out the EVERGREEN branding, but the green stripe livery is very distinctive.

              Yippee-ki-yay, etc!

    2. Bonzo_red

      Re: I'm convinced...

      If you like looking at old junk, there is the Marxzell Vehicle Museum in Marxzell, between Pforzheim and Rastatt. It's not only the British who are eccentric. For visiting Sinsheim, Ryanair fly to Karlsruhe/Baden-Baden

    3. JT_3K

      Re: I'm convinced...

      I drove past on honeymoon (driving Europe) having had no previous idea they were there. My wedding ring was already made from a flight flown Concorde compression vane. I nearly lost my mind and we stopped to go onboard - I'd thought the only TU-144s that still existed were in Russia. My wife recounts me driving madly around the local town on-loop repeating "it can't be, not here"

    4. simonlb Silver badge

      Re: I'm convinced...

      Concorde G-BOAC is on display at the Runway Visitor Park at Manchester airport where you can book a tour around the aircraft which includes a full technical brief from ex-flight crew and staff, a full tour of the cockpit - including sitting in the pilots seat - as well as the cabin, a demonstration of the visor retraction and nose droop, with a couple of glasses of champagne and a certificate for the tour. I went a few months ago with a neighbour and it was absolutely brilliant learning about all the history and technology on the aircraft.

      I must admit, it was weird sitting in the pilot's seat of a passenger aircraft and seeing a Mach meter in front of me as well as switches for the afterburners/reheat behind the throttles.

      1. Missing Semicolon Silver badge

        Re: I'm convinced...

        Interesting about wind damage. There was a big wind day, and Concorde at Manchester moved a few feet - you can see the now-empty dents in the tarmac. I thought about that when seeing the Concorde perched in the air on seemingly-spindly supports at Sinsheim.

        1. simonlb Silver badge

          Re: I'm convinced...

          It's now in it's own hangar so not affected by any bad weather these days, although the hangar isn't air conditioned so you'll still need a coat in winter.

  2. I am David Jones Silver badge
    WTF?

    No way!

    I can’t believe this museum gets a write up less than a week before I’m going to visit!

    Sadly I don’t have a full day for the visit but I will post another comment after I’ve been.

  3. fg_swe Silver badge

    More Great Technology Museums in Swabia

    +Dornier Museum in Friedrichshafen. It houses an aircraft which leads its class since the 1970s, the Dornier 31 VTOL transport.

    +Daimler Museum in Stuttgart. The entire history of the inventor of cars.

    +Porsche Museum in Stuttgart. History of Porsche and Volkswagen, minus the Tiger tank ;-)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: More Great Technology Museums in Swabia

      Sinsheim is in Baden, not in Swabia!

    2. I don't know, stop asking me.

      Re: More Great Technology Museums in Swabia

      If I am not mistaken, there is a Dornier 31 in Unterschleissheim as well.

  4. Paul Crawford Silver badge
    Pint

    Sadly I'm not in Germany much these post-Brexit days as all of that consultancy work dried up, but I really should make a holiday to see theses. Cheers!

    1. el_oscuro

      Referencing your icon, I am currently on the other side of the pond drinking an Tucher Helles lager, imported directly from Germany. And the weird shit is, it is actually cheaper that most crappy American brands.

  5. fg_swe Silver badge

    Bavaria: Deutsches Museum

    This museum attempts to display all German(and some foreign) technology achievements from aircraft to Zuse computers. In Unterschleissheim they have an additional aerospace section with Tornado, Phantom, Mig 21, Do 31, Ariane rockets.

    1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

      Re: Bavaria: Deutsches Museum

      To my embarrassment, I live fifteen minutes away from here: https://www.mhm-gatow.de/de#das-museum and pass it every time I go to the supermarket. The operative verb being 'pass'... doh.

      1. fg_swe Silver badge

        Re: Bavaria: Deutsches Museum

        Been there, friendly soldier-guides. But this is in Prussia, far away ;-)

  6. fg_swe Silver badge

    Eating Tips

    I suggest not to eat inside the Museums, as they are expensive and not the best quality. Also, town centres are often not the right place for good food.

    Rather, enter "Biergarten" into Google Maps and drive a few kilometers to that location.

    Then order something like

    + Schweineals (Pork) with Spätzle(Noodles), Bratensauce and Salad

    + Maultaschen

    + Rostbraten and Noodles or Knödels

    + Gulash from deer (Hirschgulasch)

    + Sauerbraten with Spätzle

    + local Beer

    + local fruit juice for the children

    That will cost you about 35€ per person.

    1. fg_swe Silver badge

      Re: Eating Tips

      During lunchtime (11:30 to 13:00) many butchers offer "Mittagstisch", which is similar food as described above, but at much lower cost (10€ or so). You take it away and eat it e.g. at the autobahn parking site.

      Definitely better quality than what you can get at almost same cost at fast food places.

      Google Maps (query: "Metzgerei" or "Metzgerei Mittagstisch") can find you these butcher shops quite efficiently.

      Autobahn restaurants are low quality and high priced compared to that.

    2. fg_swe Silver badge

      Eating Time, Bakeries

      Proper German Gasthäuser are only offering meals between 11:30 and 13:30 and then usually from 17:00 to 21:00.

      Only low quality fast food and prolly asian meals can be obtained at other times.

      Breakfast you can get at local bakeries, also much better than fast food places. Use Google Maps ("Bäckerei", "Konditorei").

      Cakes are also an important part of German eating. You usually go to a Bäckerei or a Konditorei from 14:00 to 18:00 to have a coffee and a good piece of cake. E.g. Käsekuchen(Cheese cake), Apfelkuchen(Apple cake), Schwarzwälder Kirschtorte(Black forest special with a bit of alcohol), Frankfurter Kranz and prolly 20 more types of cakes. Highly recommended.

      When you are hungry "in between", I suggest buying a German sandwich (belegtes Brötchen) with Butter, Salami, Pork/Schinken or Cheese. The bakeries have them usually on offer or can make them on demand. Take the Vollkornbrot (full grain oat, dark-looking) as bred. Healthier and will keep you non-hungry for a longer time.

    3. Bonzo_red

      Re: Eating Tips

      At €35/person, that is a lot of beer with your lunch.

      1. fg_swe Silver badge

        Re: Eating Tips

        If you are lucky it's two beers. 25 for proper lunch, 5 for a beer in the best case.

        Of course you can use the butcher route, then it's just 15€: 10 for the lunch and 5 for six bottles of ALDI beer. Just don't buy much more at Aldi.

      2. I am David Jones Silver badge

        Re: Eating Tips

        As they say, “drei Bier ist auch ein Schnitzel”

        i.e. three beers is equivalent to a Schnitzel, a saying used as an excuse for continuing to drink beer rather than having some food.

        1. seven of five Silver badge

          Re: Eating Tips

          "drei Bier ist auch ein Schnitzel"

          and you had no drink with that!

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Eating Tips

      Swabia also apparently has a large Turkish diaspora, so good Doner kebobs are plentiful.

      If you drive past Wörth, try Billy's Kebab and Pizza House. Be sure to experience the unique restroom facilities.

    5. el_oscuro
      Pint

      Re: Eating Tips

      If you are in Germany, you *must* get the local bier. Even if you don't drink beer. It is that good. And speaking of good, make sure you also hit the Imbiss (German food truck). Get the brat wurst or chicken schnitzel with the pommes frites. You *must* get the pommes frites from the Imbiss. They are life altering. They are the best fries on this planet. And you can't get them anywhere but the Imbiss. If you go to a restaurant or hotel, forget about it. Those fries will be disgusting, even worse than fries at most restaurants on the other side of the pond. And that is saying something.

      If you don't go to the Imbiss while in Germany, you are missing one of the best parts of Germany. And don't forget to pick up a 6 pack of the local bier too.

  7. Snake Silver badge

    Wonderful!

    I certainly would love to view and even step into the TU-144, a "beautiful disaster" as the song goes but still technologically interesting.

    However, for you aviation fans: if you Europeans can make the journey, the absolute mind-blowing place to visit is the National Museum of the United States Air Force in Dayton, OH

    https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/

    2 day visit? I only spent a day there and it would take me an honest week to actually examine, read and view every single exhibit in the place - it is enormous. Five, count them, 5 full-sized aircraft hangers full of displays, taking up 19 acres of interior - that's almost 7.7 hectares. Ready for the map??

    https://practicaltravelconcepts.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Map-of-Museum-1024x684.jpg

    From WW1 aircraft to missiles, they've got it.

    I went mainly, of course :p , to see the XB-70 Valkyrie :drool: Oh, my dream plane. It did NOT disappoint in any possible way, shape or fashion. I hope to be going back when I can pull off the time (and I can have the heart to restart my life again).

    1. Ol'Peculier

      Re: Wonderful!

      Fully agree. Although only spent about 2/3rds of a day there it is huge.

      Bit ashamed I've been there and not to Elvington which is literally down the road to me.

      1. David 132 Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Wonderful!

        Obligatory XKCD :)

    2. Bitsminer Silver badge

      Re: Wonderful!

      Elsewhere in the US:

      San Diego Air and Space Museum, with an SR-71 and other, slower, aircraft.

      Pima Air and Space Museum, Tucson.

      It was at Pima that I realized, and finally understood, that the Korean war era F-86 Sabres (and matching MiG-15s) were basically nothing more than a jet engine and a chair. Climbing into one of those and flying off was a very courageous act.

      1. Snake Silver badge

        Re: San Diego

        The USAF Museum not only has an SR-71, but also the 2-seater YF-12a, the forerunner to the SR-71.

        But the super-lovely, fun part of my absolute infatuation with the XB-70, is that they were able to park the YF-12a beside and underneath the XB-70 at the USAF Museum

        https://media.defense.gov/2020/Oct/13/2002516264/-1/-1/0/201006-F-IO108-033.JPG

        (they are both now indoors), the '70 is just that big. And with the XB-70 being almost twice the size of the more famous SR-71, yet 'only' 222mph slower (2,242.48mph for SR-71 official, 2,020 mph for the XB-70) just goes to show what a milestone the XB-70 was and would have been if allowed to be introduced into service.

        Compression lift is simply an amazing concept. Once you see photos of the XB-70 in flight, you simply can never get that image out of your head.

    3. BobbyTables

      Re: Wonderful!

      I'm British and was at a convention in Dayton with some Ohioan friends. None of us had been to the USAF museum, so with a day spare we went for a look. It's the only reason you could ever have to go to Dayton, but it's worth it. One of the best museums I've ever been to, and it's free! We just about saw all of it in a day, but didn't really get to stare too long.

      There's some crazy stuff in there. I loved the 1950s attempt to make a flying car with fans. It looks like something straight out of the Jetsons. I asked why the military would have funded that, the response was it was to fly over minefields. It didn't work, sadly. The missile silo room is mad too. They're just standing up in there.

      There's a whole big display about Trump's space force (sorry, Farce), with fancy big signs around it all, including the pen he used to sign it, which is itself signed by him... And next to all that bluster just casually sitting there with no fanfare is the Apollo 15 CM. It's sad, but also strangely poignant.

      I've been to Sinsheim too. Both are great.

    4. PerlyKing

      Re: Wonderful!

      Well if we're doing recommendations, IWM Duxford near Cambridge (UK) is a pretty good day out. There are two or three hangars full of working vintage aircraft including a B17 and a Catalina plus loads of old fighters, more non-working exhibits, and a USAF building with a B52, SR71 "and many more". And usually joyrides in a Dragon Rapide are available if you're feeling flush.

  8. fg_swe Silver badge

    Google Translate

    Whenever I visit France, GT is invaluable for me. I assume the same is true for English speakers in Germany, even though many basic words are almost identical to English (Arm, Finger, Hand etc).

    Make sure you have a working SIM card in your smartphone, so that you can use GT and Google Maps.

    Car Navigation is also best done using GM, to easily get around plenty of road building sites.

    1. Lars
      Happy

      Re: Google Translate

      @fg_swe

      I agree with GT it's a good tool if not (ever) perfect much depending on the language.

      More effort on bigger languages one has to assume.

      Regarding navigators I would add GM is not alone and there are some not depending on the internet.

      Then you mention Germanic words in a Germanic language like German and English and Swedish!.

      But with some bad luck you might find the nice Brit who in response to German words like "mother" and "father" will tell you it's such a shame English words are so eagerly copied into every foreign languages that should rather stay pure and avoid copying the English language..

    2. David 132 Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Google Translate

      even though many basic words are almost identical to English (Arm, Finger, Hand etc).

      Also "gift". Be sure to offer a Gift to everyone you meet in Germany - they will appreciate the gesture.

      (Note icon.)

  9. goblinski Bronze badge

    Will probably get back to Udvar Hazy Center one more time while drooling on organizing a trip to check these.

    I have a soft spot for all three...

    - Concorde - always struggling financially, then the accident, then once everything got lined back up together and ready to excel - eventually killed because 40% of the CEOs that were actually willing and able to authorize a Concorde ticket expense perished in a single day in a single event in September of 2001. Their replacements had the same powers, but would actually hold on such expenses as they were - well - replacements.

    - Concordski - got a head start thanks to sound engineering and very sound industrial espionage, then slowed down by the espionage being discovered and poisoned data being fed (the "secret" tires composition formulas fed by the DGSE to the Soviets was apparently a variation of chewing gum with enough extra crap to make it worth wasting time on, but eventually - still chewing gum). Then the pride of the air show, then the humiliation of it crashing in front of the World killing the crew and several people on the ground. Covered up by both the French and the Soviets into a "The cameraman dropped his camera, which got locked under the stick, which caused the plane to go into a nosedive".

    The story goes that a Mirage flew our from Strasbourg to take pictures of the canards of the Tu144 from the top. The Soviets were not informed. As the Mirage was finishing and getting away, it was noticed by the pilots, and they savagely pushed the stick to avoid it (not knowing it was flying away already). This caused "the mother of all bunts" (quoting from old archives here, as I agree :) ), flameouts, and the irony - the pilots recovered, but the frame didn't hold on recovery and the plane broke in pieces.

    So the cover up was - the French didn't want to go too much in details on why they'd send Mirages from 550km away to officially "Photograph Le Bourget's parking structures", which would fly above other planes startling the pilots, and the Soviets didn't much want to explain why their prime airplane broke in pieces on an event that was hard, but not typically hard enough to make a frame brake.

    - Buran - I pity this guy the most. All that was ever said about it was that it was a copy of the Shuttle, and no one ever batted an eyelid that it did land on its own, automatically, in30kn crosswinds with 40kn gusts.

    PS: All my Conkordski info is from a French documentary that I saw in the early 2000's. Not sure if it would be easy to find but if available - it's a great watch.

    1. Snake Silver badge

      No, AFAIK, the info you quote about Concordski is acknowledged to be correct and the most often-told story about it.

      But it is worth remembering that Concordski's canards were a late addition to the design to correct handing faults, so the design wasn't as 'sound' as one can believe it to be. Also note that, according to those same story sources, the Concord wing's complex shape was beyond the CCCP's then-technological ability to adapt, which is where the canards came in.

      1. goblinski Bronze badge

        Absolutely, no contest - the canards were a Band-Aid to compensate for their inability to copy even the info they had stolen. The French still had to photograph the canards though - not because they were something extraordinary and worthy of spying on, but because they had to be studied and known none the less.

        It's just that both had messed up. One can argue that this saved more lives down the line, but who knows.

    2. fg_swe Silver badge

      Or Maybe

      It was typical Russian recklessness. If you want to rule an empire of unparalleled size, you must be able to take serious risk. There is a fine line between calculated risk and being reckless.

      The Russians know that perception sometimes is more important than facts, when it comes to politics. This works often, but sometimes it fails.

      Recently a russian test pilot flew a Sukhoi SuperJet into an Indonesian mountain, despite the ground-collision warning system alerting him. The dead prospective customers (who were in the plane) convinced the survivors not to buy the plane.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Mount_Salak_Sukhoi_Superjet_crash

      1. Snake Silver badge

        Re: Or Maybe

        Don't forget

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Pushkin_Tu-104_crash

        that killed almost the entire leadership of Soviet Pacific fleet. Cause was overloading / improperly loading, but the history of the TU_104a

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-104A

        based on the TU-16 strategic bomber, was known to be a poor choice for conversion to passenger service with highly temperamental handling characteristics (see: Operational history section of the TU-104a Wiki entry).

        Anyway, Concordski was pushed out the door to make a political point but it was a flawed design - noisy, fuel inefficient, a handling handful (helped later with the canards) and, as we all found out publicly later, not exactly the end-word in structural integrity.

        I think the Soviet engineers ended up at McDonnell-Douglas later in life :p

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Or Maybe

          >"I think the Soviet engineers ended up at McDonnell-Douglas later in life"

          Their QA folks went to Boeing...

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      "- Buran - I pity this guy the most. All that was ever said about it was that it was a copy of the Shuttle, and no one ever batted an eyelid that it did land on its own, automatically, in30kn crosswinds with 40kn gusts."

      On the other hand, the photos linked above showing the cargo doors open reveal what looks very like typical Soviet engineering (and "institutional green" paint) on the inside. But yes, props to them for getting it to fly, return and land under remote/autonomous control back then.

  10. Gay_Dragon
    Unhappy

    Recently watched some (Russian?) explorer types accessing the old Buran workshop and getting into another of the prototypes. Strangely exciting and very sad at the same time - all that effort just sat there...

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      From a Russian perspective, and more especially from Putins perspective, it was a Soviet era failure. I'm not surprised they don't bother with it.

  11. uv

    Starting this onth you see in Sinsheim the new acquisition - the retired "U17" U-Boot, recently acquired from Bundeswehr, and transported last month from Speyer to Sinsheim via Rhein, Neckar and then a convoluted road route (convoluted, naturally, due to the specialities of the cargo - 350 t, ca 50x5x9 metres). The very detailed trip log can be read here https://u17.technik-museum.de/de/u17-live/ (German, but no problem for your onlione translator of choice) - and all "live" videos can be re-watched from there as well.

    I had the pleasure to meet the beast "in person", while it rested near the Heidelberg Old Bridge.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Tu-144 and Buran - two things on my bucket list.

  13. fg_swe Silver badge

    Transportation

    In theory, almost each and every German village can be reached by train+bus. Google Maps knows the schedule. In practice, you should always assume unexpected delays of 2 hours or more for 5 hours of travel. And overcrowded trains, even ICE. Bad organisation.

    So using the car is in most cases much more comfortable. Traffic jams can and do happen, though.

    For airline travel to Swabia, Stuttgart is the main airport, but Karlsruhe+RyanAir is prolly cheaper.

    From Paris and London you can use the TGV/ICE/similar.

    You can combine all of these options by car renting.

    1. Antron Argaiv Silver badge

      Re: Transportation

      Got to ride the German intercity trains a few years ago on a company trip. Fast, quiet, electric and expensive. But a joy to ride on someone else's expense account :-)

    2. phuzz Silver badge

      Re: Transportation

      In practice, you should always assume unexpected delays of 2 hours or more for 5 hours of travel

      Pretty miraculous by UK standards then ;)

      To be fair, there used to be a regular bus service to the village I grew up in. It would come on Tuesday, and return on Saturday.

    3. BobbyTables

      Re: Transportation

      When I went to Sinsheim I had flown to Suttgart for something else going on in Ludwigsburg, and went up there on the S-Bahn. It took a while but the museum has its own station which is nice, and it goes through some pretty areas once you get out the industrial bits.

      Since then I go by car. Last year I drove and this year as a passenger. It's cheaper if enough of you go and split the cost, no dealing with airports or trains, you get to see more, and you can buy lots of cheap booze!

      It works if you live in the south of England, can just about do it in a day if you don't hang around, but I wouldnt want to do it coming from the far North or Scotland. Aberdeen feels further of a drive than Stuttgart to me and I've done them both in the space of a few weeks.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I grew up not far from Sinsheim

    In Meckesheim, home of the modern Cesarean Section and the excellent Mall-Bräu beer. Too bad Sinsheim wasn’t as cool back then, mostly sugar beets and cows. Not far away is the town of Mauer, where the jawbone of the prehistoric human species Homo Heidelbergensis was found in 1907.

    Speyer, on the other hand, is an old Roman city, also was once a city with a large Jewish community dating back to at least the 11th century, and don’t forget the Cathedral and the Wine Museum.

  15. muddysteve

    Are those Entry Prices right?

    Each museum costs 23 Euros, or 46 for the two.

    A 2-day ticket that covers both museums costs 52 Euros. Do you get anything for the extra 6 Euros? Parking?

    1. I don't know, stop asking me.

      Re: Are those Entry Prices right?

      I believe the 2-day ticket includes the IMAX show at Sinnsheim, for which you have to pay separately with the day tickets.

      Not sure if there was an IMAX theatre as well in Speyer, since I have not been there for about a decade.

      1. muddysteve

        Re: Are those Entry Prices right?

        You are quite right - it says that in the paragraph above the grey boxes. Thanks.

  16. BobbyTables

    I went to Sinsheim in 2022. Well worth a visit, fabulous museum. The day I went by chance happened to be the day the Bertha Benz rally was there, so there was a lot of very early cars driving around through there.

    You can tell when you go inside them just how much bigger the TU-144 is than Concorde, but also how rushed it was. I know which I'd rather actually fly in. Then again if I could chose anything to fly in it would be a Concorde, so that's not entirely fair.

    A lovely part of the world too, one of my favourites. I go to Southern Germany every year. It is a drivable distance from England, done it twice. Go as a group and it's cheaper than flying.

  17. cryptopants

    There’s an often repeated myth that the US banned the Concord thus harming the concord’s commercial success.

    The truth is the USA did no such thing. All it did was to ban supersonic flights over its territory. Concord has never been restricted about what speed it can race across the oceans.

    And in that regard US law perfectly matches European regulation, notably of France and the UK as neither permit overflights except with specific permission.

  18. Andy A
    WTF?

    Strange pricing!

    So for 23€ each you can visit the two museums individually.

    OR

    For an extra 6€ you can buy a ticket to let you visit the two museums.

    Pick one.

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