back to article Apple is coming to take 30% cut of new Patreon subs on iOS

Patreon today said Apple will soon take a 30 percent cut of new subscriptions bought via its iOS app. This is because, according to Patreon, the app maker is being strong-armed by Apple into dropping third-party billing options from its iOS application, and instead must use the iPhone giant's own in-app purchasing system. It's …

  1. chris street

    I'm often asked why I have such a visceral hatred of Apple, and why I refuse point blank to buy any of the tat from the Cult of Jobs.

    This.

    This is the reason why, amongst many others.

    1. Gordon 10 Silver badge

      Really?

      Seems an odd thing to get riled about.

      First world problem.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        And you think Apple, Google, WeChat etc etc, aren't going to do the exact same thing to poor people.

      2. Cletus

        The Patreon creators I subscribe to are mainly hobbyists. Apple fleecing these users for 30% is extremely distasteful - naked corporate greed.

        1. Steve Channell
          Mushroom

          I thought Racketeering was illegal in the US?

          1. J. Cook Silver badge
            Black Helicopters

            Technically, it is, but when you have a couple billion sitting around for lobbyists and lawyers, you can apparently do whatever you want, including lobbying to have the monopoly and RICO laws tweaked so as to not apply to you.

            Also: This is why I tend to not use IOS apps unless there's absolutely zero reason otherwise, because 95%+ of them are essentially reskinned browser sessions. Patreon is now finding out what tying your platform's financial success to the whims of a megalith that's actively known to pull this crap. (And they should have known better, seeing as they went through the whole adult content debacle with their payment processor a couple years ago, but that's a separate and altogether more obscene rant.)

            See also: Tumblr, 2018 porn ban, and every other site that used to host adult material but then wanted to get an app on Apple's store.

      3. MrMerrymaker

        Gordon 10

        If the definition of sanity is knowing reality..

        You ought to worry

    2. Groo The Wanderer

      Agreed. You know if you buy apple, you're going to be paying a premium for anything and everything it uses.

    3. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
      Holmes

      Blinkers or what?

      The the thing is... You can always bypass the Apple Tax. Just stop being so dependent on your phone for everything. IOS? Pay the Apple Tax. Android (for 99% of owners) Surrender your life and everything to Google.

      Go to the website and subscribe that way. Apple and Google can take a hike. It ain't rocket science people but... if you are so lazy then Apple and Google will come along and milk you dry.

      1. MrMerrymaker

        Re: Blinkers or what?

        You don't need Google for android.

        This is a tech website. Do you really need to be told some excellent manufacturers of android devices exist who don't have anything to do with Google?

        1. Hubert Cumberdale Silver badge

          Re: Blinkers or what?

          From the tone of this post – the factual content of which, I would note, I don't dispute – I'm assuming that your username is sarcastic.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Blinkers or what?

          It is not. Its a politics website masquerading as tech and has been for years

    4. Alex Stuart

      Agreed, though I've had a bad impression of them since school, in the eras of having no physical floppy eject button, a single-button mouse, and being made to stay behind and do lines of 'macs are not crap' by, in hindsight, a pathologically fanboyish CDT teacher for saying (you guessed it) 'macs are crap'.

      iTunes coming along and being horrifically bloated compared to Winamp made the impression worse, as did the iPod and needing a Winamp mod to be able to drag and drop MP3 files to it (my girlfriend's, not mine, of course)

      Further shenanigans of multiple flavours have done nothing to endear them to me, though I'll never deny they make excellent hardware.

      1. J. Cook Silver badge
        Go

        Yes. Excellent hardware specs and end user build quality, decent service life, but with the expectation that if it breaks or needs repair, it'll be eWaste because...

        shite firmware and software that uses the most contrived, convoluted, and asinine reasons to tie things like consumable parts (read: batteries) to the hardware, and abusive practices against anyone not apple authorized repair centers (which have their own issues).

        I've already made a rant about how shitty Apple's iTunes client is on a windows machine, I'll not repeat it here, except to say that there's not a lot of 'decent' audio management tools on any platform, period.

        (reminds self to pop the old iPhone 8 out of it's case to see if it's time to look into a battery swap on the thing)

  2. Gene Cash Silver badge

    That is an absolute dick move

    I fund my favorite YouTube creators through Patreon because YouTube screws them over and uses every excuse to demonetize their videos. And if they don't run ads, YouTube doesn't surface them in search results. They can't win.

    Now Apple is trying to screw them over too.

    I'm not surprised. Disappointed, but not surprised.

    That's exactly what I'd expect from Apple, and why I'd never buy an Apple product.

    1. wolfetone Silver badge

      Re: That is an absolute dick move

      "And if they don't run ads, YouTube doesn't surface them in search results. "

      Well shit. I don't run ads on my YouTube videos because i'm not big enough to actually get any of the cash, and wondered about whether this was hurting the performance.

      What absolute bastards.

      1. Anon the mouse

        Re: That is an absolute dick move

        If you haven't already check out Spiffing Brits vids on gaming the youtube algorithm and how little youtube cares to fix what he finds.

        1. Jadith

          Re: That is an absolute dick move

          I have seen that video. IIRC it shows how perfectly balanced youtube's algorythm is.

          1. maffski

            Re: That is an absolute dick move

            To the down voters. Go click on some Spiffing Brit videos at random and then come back here and apologise.

          2. botfap

            Re: That is an absolute dick move

            lol its seems that the reg readers have become so detached and clueless that they dont appreciate a perfectly balanced response. Shameful, makes me wonder if Elon is the good guy afterall

      2. Grogan Silver badge

        Re: That is an absolute dick move

        I used to have a few youtube videos. Nothing much, just some game captures of funny things. A few thousand views and a few comments etc. I deliberately didn't choose to monetize them, I don't like ads and I wouldn't subject other people to them on my behalf (not a single one on my web site and forum etc. No sponsors, no affiliate links, no begging for money... I just don't do that shit).

        First, I don't know why, but one of my videos got flagged for copyright. Google then put ads on it. I was annoyed, but not murderously pissed yet.

        Then another got flagged for adult content. Cartoon nudity, because I showed some naked corpses because I had this skyrim nudity mod. They made it 18 only and, you guessed it, stuck ads on it.

        That was it. I deleted everything I had on youtube. If I want to post a video I'll just host it on my own fucking web server. I have a shit tonne of monthly bandwidth.

        1. Mr. Flibble

          Re: That is an absolute dick move

          If you have loads of bandwidth and the time to set it up, I would recommend playing with peertube.

          I set up an instance and it was quite easy.

  3. Greg 38

    nothing's changed in 30 years

    I abandoned Apple's products when they released the frilly coloured iMacs in the 90s but used proprietary screws to keep you from tinkering with the hardware. They were still at it decades later soldering RAM onto their lappy motherboards. But this taking of 30% from Patreon is like Scrooge taking the goose back from Cratchit. Humbug to Apple, I say.

    1. simonlb Silver badge
      Thumb Down

      Re: nothing's changed in 30 years

      I suppose you could argue that the 30% cut might well have been acceptable when Apple first started their App store, but now it's totally egregious. With the size of that ecosystem now, they could easily drop it to 10% or even less and still make plenty of money, but this is your late stage capitalism in all its glory.

      1. heyrick Silver badge

        Re: nothing's changed in 30 years

        "that the 30% cut might well have been acceptable when Apple first started their App store"

        Why? Why is this shit acceptable? Content creators make stuff. Patreon handles the subscriptions. People have already bought their iThingy. So, literally, Apple is doing fuck all (yes, I know they are handling payment, but that's only because they say they must) and wants paid handsomely for it. And this, forcing the app to use their limited payment facility or risk getting booted...

        ...let's call this exactly what it is: Protection Money.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: nothing's changed in 30 years

          So.... charge 'em under racketeering law?

        2. Tim99 Silver badge

          Re: nothing's changed in 30 years

          "that the 30% cut might well have been acceptable when Apple first started their App store"

          Why? Why is this shit acceptable?

          Perhaps because back then; when I used to write and ship specialist shrink-wrap software; my cost of marketing, distribution, and sales were a lot more than 30%? OK you're talking about Patreon which is generally not the same thing, but I agree that these days 30% is too high, maybe 15%?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: nothing's changed in 30 years

            In this case, Patreon is doing the marketing, distribution, and sales; Apple is just taking the money.

        3. hoola Silver badge

          Re: nothing's changed in 30 years

          I think for an answer you only have to look at the billions Apple has stashed after fleecing customers, suppliers, developers, pretty much everyone that has anything to do with the company.

          They are an utterly vile organisation like many big tech companies (probably one of the worst) and people just accept it, continue to buy iTat and worship them as some sort of god.

    2. RAMChYLD

      Re: nothing's changed in 30 years

      This is becoming a thing in the laptop market sadly. Lenovo and HP are also already doing this. I don't know about Dell but I won't be surprised if they too has also started down this route (although I think they're also fighting it, which is why they invented CAMM?)

      1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

        Re: nothing's changed in 30 years

        It's a thing because consumers want thinner devices and glued and soldered components help make things thinner without adding to design and manufacturing costs . Most consumers (not Reg readers or avid gamers) don't give a toss about CPU cores, speed, memory, etc. They might care about screen resolution and brightness, but most of all they care about size and thickness, even if it only ever gets used at home on their lap.

    3. cyberdemon Silver badge
      Black Helicopters

      Re: nothing's changed in 30 years

      Nothing's changed in 30 years, indeed! (except that it has got much worse and become more brazen)

      Another of Deus Ex's many premonitions was that this sort of thing would get worse and worse.

      "It's called consolidation. Strengthen governments and corporations, weaken individuals. With taxes, this can be done imperceptibly over time"

      The idea of Apple, Google, Facebook, TikTok, Amazon et al taking a large cut of all payments made by or between individuals, is just a massive example of this. No doubt Apple will want 30% of all charity donations made using their phones next.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: nothing's changed in 30 years

        Ah, Deus Ex. The game from 2000 that had a terrorist organization destroy a major US landmark, leading to a huge antiterrorist push including a major government organization without proper oversight. And then it happened in real life the next year! (Presumably most of the rest of the plot isn't true.)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: nothing's changed in 30 years

          Yes, there's no way there's a massive US Government funded data-interception scheme, one that's significantly privatised, with government and private-industry AIs running over it to quantify, predict, and control the populace.

          Going to the sequel, there's no way we'd live in a world where conversational AIs would be used to pose as people's friends and companions to gather data.

          Still, that massive pandemic that had pharmaceutical suppliers bending governments to their will didn't happen.

          Though it might be real- I did once get a Lemon-Lime drink after requesting Orange.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    In-App purchases and Apple?

    No, nada, nil.

  5. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Delightful

    I see that there's a rogue fanboi downvoting everyone who dares oppose the Cult of Jobs.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
      Trollface

      Re: Delightful

      Remember, the first rule of downvote club - is never to talk about downvote club!

      Just to join in the spirt of things though - I love my iPads and sadly just bought a new one about 3 hours ago. My 4th in 14 years. Shame I can't retrospectively take back 30% of the purchase price...

      On the other hand Apple's cables suck, their accessories are hideously over-priced (and sometimes not even that good) and as a company they're annoyingly self-congratulatory, often to the point of nausea.

      ..Oh, and all Macs are shit - and don't "just work"... However this is based on a sample size of 2, that I've fixed problems on for other people - I've never used one myself.

      Even Windows ME worked sometimes...

      OK, that's a troll too far - even I'm ashamed.

      1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

        Re: Apple Cables

        do suck but even Poundland sells Lightning and USB-C cables at a few quid a pop.

        Only a numbskull would buy apple cables in this day and age.

        {apologies to registered numbskulls}

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Delightful

        I had a Windows ME machine that worked perfectly. The key was doing a from-scratch install instead of an upgrade from 98. I worked with an ME-from-98-from-95 machine that was a nightmare; would crash randomly even when no one was using it!

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

          Re: Delightful

          Dad had a Windows ME machine. Erik! It was not a happy PC. I was never quite sure if it was flaky hardware or the flaky software that made it worse though. Several clean installs did not help the situation much.

          1. John PM Chappell

            Re: Delightful

            Probably hardware. ME wasn't actually that bad at all. I mean, it was bad (because it half-arsed stuff and was somewhat incompatible with earlier 9x Windows) but it definitely wasn't the unusable mess some people would have you believe. Typically, upgrade setups were flaky because, truth be told, so was the system prior to the upgrade. Clean installation has always been the way to go, as I think we all know.

  6. The Central Scrutinizer Silver badge

    Ah yes, the tech bully boy at it again. It's a cult.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    While I disagree with what Apple are doing here (and the things like soldering RAM and propriety screws), I still buy iPhones? Why? They just work. The interface just works. And it does all I want it to and does it well.

    Regulation is the only way that things in this space will change. And that's beginning to happen.

    Long gone are the days when I would happily spend hours configuring and building. These days I just want it to work out the box. And my iPhone does.

    1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge
      Pirate

      It Just Works

      There is no technology in the modern era that doesn't Just Work(tm). Even Linux, bless it.

      In particular, every single Android phone I have ever owned has Just Worked(tm). Have you ever tried one?

      GJC

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: It Just Works

        Geoff Campbell,

        Android doesn't just work for Mum. She has an uncanny ability to do horrible things to it. Don't know how. She really liked Windows Phone, she liked mine and it was cheap. When that died I became a perfectly satisfied Android user - she never did.

        So we spent a bit extra and she's now completely satisfied with her iPhone. Except she keeps turning on the physical mute button in church - and then wondering why her phone doesn't ring for the next few days.

        I find Android a bit more fiddly than iOS, but prefer the customisation options. Although as a happy iPad user - I would say that Apple's UI is increasingly becoming a mess, with options hidden all over the menus and a proliferation of annoying gesture controls that you often can't disable. While still not being as customisable as a Droid. My current phone being a Google Pixel - which has shown me the error of my ways, in that it's got fewer options than other Droids I've used, and I think the sweet spot for me is now a bit more mess for a bit more choice.

        Changing devices is still hands-down easier with Apple though.

        1. Tim99 Silver badge

          Re: It Just Works

          As a volunteer, I taught "computing" to retirees, on average 1-2 afternoons a week. Our rough rule for Windows was that people needed about 12 weeks to be safe enough to do the basics without continuous support. When the iPad 2 came out, we realized that it was suitable for much of what seniors needed to do. The 12 week course was modified to 6 weeks, just covering the internet, Apple Mail and the App Store. Anyone who wanted to edit photographs could add on another 2 weeks. Android tablets were mostly Samsung, which a number of people found harder to learn (Samsungs own Apps in particular) and less 'intuitive". Typically they would spend 2-3 weeks longer.

          When I helped workshop "computing for seniors" for our national government, they seemed to agree - Their basic "suggested recommendation" was for iPads. At the time smart phones where usually too small for people with impaired eyesight and limited dexterity; particularly as older people wanted the POTS that they were used to...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: It Just Works

            My dad taught his mom to use a cellphone. The key (brilliant of him) was he got her a flip phone.

            "When it rings, how do I answer?" "You pick it up." [opens flip]

            "How do I hang up?" "You hang up." [closes flip]

            "How do I call?" "You pick it up and dial; you just have to push the green button after dialing."

            She had no trouble with it.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It Just Works

        Some of us don't want to feed the dragon that is google in any shape or form so we avoid Android devices. It ain't magic you know.

      3. J. Cook Silver badge
        Megaphone

        Re: It Just Works

        In particular, every single Android phone I have ever owned has Just Worked(tm). Have you ever tried one?

        Yup; Had a few of them until mid 2015, when it got replaced with an iPhone, because for no apparent reason, it would show 4 bars of signal, but calls placed to it would go straight to voicemail. You know, the one thing that a cell phone is supposed to be able to do reliably. I mean, seriously! It says it right in the name- cell phone.

        Performing a hard restart on the phone resulted in a deluge of text messages, 'missed call' notifications, and voicemail notifications, because the radio's software stack had frozen on it, and Verizon (*spits*) along with the phone vendor (Samsung (*spits again*)) decided in their infinite wisdom that keeping the device up to date was too hard a task for them to deal with past the 13 month mark on a phone with a two year refresh cycle.

        My next work phone was an iPhone and I've been on that platform since, because my expectations for it are simple:

        It needs to RECEIVE AND PLACE CALLS (and text messages) WHEN IN RANGE OF A TOWER (which is ~98% of the time)

        Everything else on it (the MFA apps, the camera, the email, the hot spot) is secondary.

    2. Irongut Silver badge

      Personally I prefer Android phones, they work well rather than just work.

      I've always found Apple's marketting slogan "they just work" funny. To me it means they barely work at all.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "just works"? fixed many that didn't "just work". they're also very "me too, me too" in recent years copying features that other phone makers have had for a long time. haven't been leading edge in a very long time in my opinion.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I agree, but there really is nothing wrong with not putting every daily brain fart into your product, totally half arsed, but instead waiting to see what is worthwhile, then implementing it properly.

        (an Apple refusenik myself)

    4. chivo243 Silver badge

      And the trick is to buy them second hand from a friend that you know was gentle with the hardware and had to have the new shiny! My two iPhones total cost €150, iPhone5(now retired) and SE first Gen, I replaced the battery recently, can't be happier.

      I'm no fanboi, but I know a good deal when I see one!

      With the money I saved on second hand iPhones, I was able to buy all the screwdrivers I needed from iFixit.

      This app store strong arm stuff is right out of The Godfather... give it a rest Apple ;-{

    5. heyrick Silver badge

      "I still buy iPhones? Why? They just work."

      I am an Android user. They just work. Better yet, once you tap past the dire "installing this unofficial app may cause all life on earth to die horribly" warning, it's a doodle to install those useful things that the benevolent overlord doesn't agree with (like NewPipe).

      "These days I just want it to work out the box."

      Mobile phones are an entirely different market to home built PCs. You don't get to see what's inside, you can't swap out the memory for something larger, and for most people you don't get to pick what OS to run on the thing. So having it work from first switch on is the expectation.

      The only wrinkle is that different manufacturers may dick around with the UI so it is different in subtle ways (consider Samsung's one versus Xiaomi's MIUI or whatever they're calling it now). A person that understands how to use mobile phones, as opposed to a person that memorises the locations of icons and is lost if they move, will not have much trouble changing from one make to another. And, anyway, is isn't as if Apple are immune from screwing with the UI from time to time - remember what iOS 6 looked like?

      1. Shalghar Bronze badge

        Try the RedMi scourge, if you feel masochistic tendencies.

        Android as a disadvantegaous advantage of being highly customizeable, sadly also in a "we tell you what you cant delete" way thats somewhat Ihateyou compatible with apple.

        On the other hand, there are many, many manufacturers that just deliver a plain as possible OS (with only "child mode", "digital wellness" and similar uninstalleable bloatware thats sadly deeply encrusted in the OS now) with the occasional customer contact, system optimizer and phone mirroring app included.

        When i compare my blackview pack with the "mi" whatevers that my wife and kids pretend to like, i have literally zero problems apart from my usual preferences like replacing gboard with hackers keyboard, installing several apps that playstore doesnt like and fiddling some stuff around with ADB becaus i somewhat dislike certain things.

        The "mi" things however are somewhat loaded with bloatware and manufacturer made sillystuff, and thats exactly whats triggering issues quite regularly. Sadly, most of this cannot be uninstalled, only disabled or overridden with replacement apps.

        Anyway the dokeOS android in blackviews really "just works" from first start, the sillystuff thats clinging into whatever "mi" android is called "just works" for a few weeks, then triggers a multitude of mysterious issues along several other apps.

        TL,DR: Android also "just works" but sadly, some manufacturers do interfere with this in a quite unpleasant way. That might be why things like Lineage and KaiOS exist. ;)

    6. David Nash

      Whenever I have tried to use an Iphone I get annoyed that they don't seem to like the concept of a "Back" button in the same way that I am used to from Android.

      I can't remember exactly but something like: I am in Contacts...click an email...it goes into email, I send the mail, click Back -- should be able to get back to whence I came, right, which was contacts? Nope, I am stuck in email and the only way out is to go to the home screen and find contacts again.

      Or I am in any app, finished, want to back out and the app should disappear...nope, I have to jump to home screen.

      So the famed "usability" is just what you're used to. Sadly I come across apps even in Android where the native "back" button is ignored and you can only navigate via buttons provided by the app author. I assume these are ported from ios apps.

      1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

        It might have changed since the last time you used it, but in the example you give, at the very top left of the screen there's a tiny "Contacts" to take you back to the Contacts app. Same when I use an RSS app and view a post in Safari instead of plain text - I can go back to the RSS app by clicking the RSS app link in the top left of the screen.

  8. Khaptain Silver badge

    "I still buy iPhones? Why? They just work."

    Don't worry the Android phones do exactly the same thing. ( but with a much better interface , YMMV)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      But which interface

      Perhaps.

      But which interface? From which manufacturer? Which apps have been pre-loaded and can't be disabled without rooting the phone? Is it called Mail, Samsung (to pick one at random) Mail, Email, My Email or Gmail?

      How do I play the which version have I got and how long will it be supported lottery?

      (Devil's advocate and all that).

      1. TonyJ

        Re: But which interface

        I mean you could just install Outlook for Android, or use the inbuilt one called Email, or the inbuilt one called GMail, or... yeah you make a fair point for, say the Samsung devices. Lots of repetition. And different app stores (Galaxy Store vs Play Store) which allow you to install the same app twice in some cases.

        However, I just got given back an older Note 8 that I'd given my Dad, after he upgraded to an S22 (and as I've mentioned previously, he's rather technophobe). He went through the migration himself from one to the other and is happy with everything.

        I decided to drop LineageOS onto the Note8. Entirely as an exercise in how to and to test e.g. banking apps in readiness for moving my own phone onto it.

        And whilst it's not a process for the non-technical, nor is it that onerous. And as we often support our own families etc I'd expect most readers here to accomplish it with very little drama or issue.

        The end result is a very clean OS and even with the open sourced GApps it isn't cluttered with a ton of bloat and multiple apps that all do the same thing. In fact with the version I put on, there isn't even an email client included.

        All the banking apps just work (in a much, much, earlier version I tried several years ago some of them decided that the unlocked bootloader / lineage = rooted and wouldn't launch).

        All the functions of the phone work (with one quirk - take the stylus out, and it reboots the phone so you can then use the stylus. Put the stylus back in and... it reboots the phone, to stop using the stylus, but given I never use it anymore it's not a huge issue for me, personally).

        All of which is a long winded way to say it's a very easy to use, clear and simple interface that both looks good* and just works.

        *Obviously that's to my own personal tastes and YMMV.

        1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

          Re: I decided to drop LineageOS onto the Note8

          For most people that jib while simple is still one that they would not want to touch for fear of bricking their device.

          You... and that applies to all commentards here are NOT average users of anything related to IT.

    2. wolfetone Silver badge

      "( but with a much better interface , YMMV)"

      Last time I used an Android phone was 2 years ago. The phone was perfectly fine until it received the "new" update which promptly broke it. Things like changing the volume of specific applications went missing (when it was a feature before) as one example just disappeared from the phone. Not to mention the once slick phone went to utter shit afterwards.

      At least with the iPhone I've got now it's had updates and they've been marginal improvements. I've not had any features taken away on a whim without a warning.

      As shit as Apple are as a company at least they get the update bit right.

      1. heyrick Silver badge

        "I've not had any features taken away on a whim without a warning."

        Well, there was that time they hobbled processor speeds because "some bullshit excuse about the battery being old".

      2. Casca Silver badge

        Ah yes. All Android is the same...

        You could write what manufacturer it is.

  9. Headley_Grange Silver badge

    Yeah - and the sooner someone goes after eBay the better. They take 13% of my sales, including postage and for what? Bugger all as far as I can see. Well, apart from the development and running costs of platform and services I need to sell stuff and get my money. But apart from that, why should I pay for it?

    1. Vincent van Gopher

      13% is not so bad - 30% is a total rip off.

      I know you're doing a 'what have the Romans ever done for us' but Apple are just being greedy b'stards.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        And let's be clear - Ebay developed the site, provides the hosting, and offers the OPTION of processing payments, and only charges 13%. Apple is REQUIRING app developers to use the Apple payment system and is charging 30% for the privilege - and the only thing they're doing to "earn" the processing fee is providing the payment processing system and requiring people to use it.

        1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

          I'm very clear. Just as I have a choice whether or not to use eBay, the devs have the simple option of not developing for iPhone, don't they?

    2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Headley_Grange,

      You choose to use eBay. You could go the Amazon route or run your own website - or many other choices.

      Patreon were an existing company with an existing userbase and existing systems - who Apple are threatening because Apple have power over a large number of their users. A lot of Patreon is for podcast and video content - much of which is used on Android or iOS. I imagine there's a convenience to using the app in iOS, since I've noticed from the podcasts that I listen to that a lot of them have been promoting their Apple way of subscribing of late. Don't know if that's because it's easier to use, or Apple device owners are richer/more gullible/more likely to pay [delete as applicable].

      This is clearly not a choice - and is Apple threatening to tie smaller companies up in infinite legal battles until they go bust, or give Apple lots of money - leveraging Apple's mononpolies in the smartphone adn tablet market. By definition I'd say Google and Apple are monopolies, since both control very large amounts of the markets and set the market price for app stores at 30% - by definition you're probably a using monopolistic pricing if you're setting the price, rather than the market dictating it to you.

    3. cdegroot

      13% is a reasonable auction fee. I mean,double digit percentage commissions have always been accepted for the service of marketing, etc.

      The egregious bit is that this is after the deal. Users have found Patreon, have downloaded the app, and now just for running transactions, where everybody is already fuming at MC and Visa (bloody amateurs with their 4%), they take a third.

      This company needs to be regulated into oblivion.

      1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

        Just out of curiosity - I assume that if I buy from eBay using the iPhone app Apple doesn't take 30% of the transaction. Is this because it's a different type of transaction or because eBay are too big to be pushed around by Apple?

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

          Is this because it's a different type of transaction or because eBay are too big to be pushed around by Apple?

          Bit of both maybe? It is a different kind of transaction, because it's not a subscription or a bit of DLC for a game. Effectively eBay's app is just a native version of the website - possibly with extra tools? I don't use it. I'd be surprised if Patreon could survive Apple withholding a large chunk of its payments, or kicking it out of the app store - while lawyering up and going through all of Apple's appeals (even if they do win). Plus funding all the lawyers of course.

          Whereas Epic Games seem to have calculated that they were big enough to take the hit.

          But you notice with Office 365 that Apple never tried to make Microsoft pay for online subscriptions to that. Because clearly Microsoft would have immediately lawyered up and gone to town on them.

          However, one of the other ways you can tell that Google and Apple are practising monopoly pricing on the app stores, is that nobody gets a discount. If you're selling online games on the app store - Apple takes 30% - and that doesn't matter whether you're Microsoft or EA of Bob's Budget Games. In no competitive market would you expect the huge players of the industry, not to get a discount for volume of sales.

    4. This post has been deleted by its author

  10. Wizardling

    These comments are something I'd have expected to find on Usenet back in the '90s.

    You guys realise no sane well adjusted person ties their self worth to which OS they use or who made their hardware, right? :-D

    1. GioCiampa

      Re: These comments are something I'd have expected to find on Usenet back in the '90s.

      Some things never change - although my first (non-test) post over there was a response to a "our beer is better than your beer" comment, but that's much the same concept.

      https://groups.google.com/g/alt.beer/c/dgjOPgQfyjo/m/eR8iiI0jJtcJ

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Doesn't affect me

    I terminated the one subscription I had (through the site, not an app) when Patreon set about trying to strike down one of the US's few pieces of privacy legislation in the interests of their own rent-collecting activities [Ars Technica]. Since they've just settled (read lost) [Mondaq, an annoying site] I suppose I could go back, if I thought they might learn the lesson. Hmmm …

    If I were uncharitable (and, judging by the tone of this post, I am) I'd say one story dropped to bury the other.

  12. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

    Good to see anti-trust legislation never steps back from doing its job.

  13. Vulture@C64

    Oh boy, all the anti-Apple people are out in force with this one !

    People use Apple because, as pointed out above, it just works. It's a very safe, reliable platform and you can trust Apple with your data and credit cards.

    Feel free to use Android if you want - it's your choice but don't come banging on again about how bad apple is for soldering memory or charging to use their payment services.

    As for Patreon, you don't have to use Patreon, you can simply use PayPal to send a cash amount, it's even free if it comes from a Paypal balance but even PayPal charge you if the money comes from a payment card.

    Life isn't free and the better services cost more than the poor ones. It's like buying food - small cafe with greasy food, £15 or a nice restaurant with quality ingredients - £40. Or are you thinking the restaurant should sell you their food at cafe price ?

    1. doublelayer Silver badge

      I think the restaurant shouldn't get to charge me for going to someone else's restaurant just because I have gone there in the past.

      This is not about paying more for iPhones. I've done that and willingly to get the benefits of the phone, such as updates that don't stop coming after two years. When Apple does something, I am willing to pay Apple. When they don't, I am not willing to have to pay them more. Trying to tax any financial operation that involves an iPhone, even when they have done nothing at all during that operation, is not the same as charging higher prices for their own products.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Dear Mr DoubleLayer,

        Apple compliance here. We have become aware that you have been keeping cash in the same wallet as our iphone. As per our terms and considitions, please remit 30% of your cash to ....

      2. Mage Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: When Apple does something, I am willing to pay Apple.

        Though most of it is still x2 to x4 overpriced.

        1. TonyJ

          Re: When Apple does something, I am willing to pay Apple.

          "...Though most of it is still x2 to x4 overpriced...

          Just for a bit of balance, have you seen the price of a flagship Samsung phone?

          Also massively overpriced.

  14. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Vulture@C64

      Did the Apple iPod music player not come with music player software ?

      1. doublelayer Silver badge

        I'm guessing by the comparison to Rockbox that they wanted features the iPod's music player software couldn't do, such as playing formats other than the two that Apple supports or transferring music not using iTunes. Of course, then I start to wonder why they bought an iPod instead of something else they didn't have to hack. At the time, I'd have preferred an iPod running Rockbox to something generic, but if I didn't know that Rockbox would be supported, I would have bought a cheap one instead rather than deal with the limitations.

  15. littletijn
    Devil

    Nice subscriptions app you got there. Be a shame if anything happen to it...

    It's like some extorsion, cranking up the price with 30% and be forced to take it just because it now looks like there is some pretty money to make for the house of the shiny things.

    Sometimes you just wished that those big companies did not try to pursuit (the illusional) unlimited grow no matter what.

  16. Postscript

    Make the app free

    Could they make the IOS app free and take payments through a non-Apple web interface? Or does that break some app store rule... It sounds more like people use their IOS devices to access Patreon content than actually use the app.

    "...iOS is actually now the most used platform for communities on Patreon..."

    1. doublelayer Silver badge

      Re: Make the app free

      The app is already free. The app isn't the product, just the way to organize payments to others who don't have an app of their own. Anyone who wants can pay through this by going to their website instead of their app. However, they will not be able to continue to use the app and direct people to any other payment systems, either in-app or on a website. Outside the EU and South Korea, Apple has forbidden doing so. Inside those areas where it is required, Apple has placed so many restrictions on doing so that they're still effectively forbidding it but pretending that they aren't.

  17. talk_is_cheap

    And if you are in the UK all these costs have VAT added on, using Patreon to make a payment to a small independent creator results in all the middlemen making money and the creator receiving next to nothing.

    1. heyrick Silver badge
      Unhappy

      and the creator receiving next to nothing

      Plus ça change...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Etsy too

      I make stuff for Etsy, selling for £4.50. My bank gets after fees etc. about £2.50.

      The point is, if Patreon don't like it, don't get into the pool.

  18. An_Old_Dog Silver badge
    WTF?

    Stupid(?) People

    This should be a non-issue. Why do so many people wrongly believe that everything they do has to go through an app?!

    Can't they make payments through Patreon using a freakin' web page?

    1. Alumoi Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: Stupid(?) People

      What? Use a browser? Like common people? It's apps, apps, apps!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Stupid(?) People/Developers

        If only! My preference would be to use the website. But a lot of times some functionality is only available in the app.

        In some cases its the worst of both worlds, some functionality in the app only, but need website for some stuff. Strava and Garmin come to mind as examples of this fragmented functionality approach.

        1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

          Re: Stupid(?) People/Developers

          Garmin. Don't talk to me about Garmin. They make the best devices for my needs but must qualify for the crappest, disjointedist couldn'tgiveafuckaboutyounowyou'vespentfivehundredquidonourkittiest software out there by a very long chalk.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Stupid(?) People/Developers

          T-Mobile home internet. The "gateway" (a modem) has a webpage - but all it shows is status. The tiny bit of configuration that the user is allowed to do is via the T-Mobile app.

          Of course, Nater Tater posted videos on how to download the REAL configuration from the gateway, modify it, and upload it again. Which is the ONLY way to turn off Wifi, which you want to do if you own your own router.

  19. DoctorNine

    Alternatives

    Maybe don't use the .app and instead subscribe to your Patreon favs on the web? Wouldn't that circumvent the .app store?

    What am I missing?

  20. navarac Silver badge

    Protection Racket

    To me, this syphoning off 30% from everything by Apple, smells like a Protection Racket.

    Only Apple device I have had in the house, was my deceased brother's old iPad. I physically destroyed and tossed it as I could not get rid of his personal information. Apple was not interested in helping me to access the device as his executor. Shitty Yank company, ripping off the those who manufacture the devices, and those who buy and use them.

  21. This post has been deleted by its author

  22. PBuon

    Developers should strip payments out of the iOS App and instruct potential subscribers to use a web based alternative.

    1. Shalghar Bronze badge

      While this seems like the obvious thing to do, wasnt this "redirecting to different payment methods" already forbidden in the TOS(s em out) when epic started to get angry with apples Iprotection racket ?

      I have an inherited mac mini with os 10.whatever in working condition but never read any apple ToS so i am rememberguessing from what i read here.

      Please correct me if im (quite likely) remembering wrong.

  23. Mage Silver badge
    Pirate

    Greed

    As per title

    Obvious icon.

  24. xyz123 Silver badge

    I'm just surprised anyone still uses iPhones or iPads tbh.

    2012 technology in a slightly-different shaped shell. Ancient clunky insecure OS. Always-on microphone and camera so Apple records you 24/7 and happily sells data to whoever is willing to buy it.

    Flimsy build quality, Nightmare RMA system, horrific "update" system. Overpriced apps due to apples 30% mafia cut.

    Hell Apple takes 30% from freakin' CHARITY apps. yes 30%. You donate to help kids with cancer...Apple wants it cut. Be a shame if your charity was blocked from the App Store.

    They're in violation of US federal AND state laws regarding repairability....the list goes on.

    And all this for 3-4x the price of an Android device with twice the specs.

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