back to article EVs continue to grow but private buyers are steering clear, say motor trade figures

The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) has published UK data showing that while sales of new electric vehicles are on the rise, private buyers are staying away. The figures from the UK motor industry body suggest that things are moving in the right direction to potentially help hit government's carbon-neutral …

  1. hoola Silver badge

    Second Hand?

    Maybe this is because those who buy second hand are wary of the technology?

    Now we come to the main reason, they are simply far too expensive and most are far too large.

    Most of the buyers until now have been corporate leases for no other reason than tax incentives. It is nothing to be with an EV being "Green", it is ways of saving corporate money and increasing people's perks.

    A survey recently (European & US I believe, I cannot find the link) showed that those who where proponents of EVs were generally much better off financially, lived in property that meant charging was not an issue and had access to other vehicles that were ICE.

    1. John Robson Silver badge

      Re: Second Hand?

      "Now we come to the main reason, they are simply far too expensive and most are far too large."

      Applies to all cars...

      1. cyberdemon Silver badge

        Re: Second Hand?

        > Applies to all cars...

        No it doesn't. E.g. my Kia Rio is reasonably sized, not too heavy, decent mpg, I bought it 6 years ago second-hand for the price of an electric bicycle, and it has served me very well.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Second Hand?

          And the iMiev is still 5 door, but is lighter...

          Of course there are lighter and heavier cars of all sorts, but to pretend that EVs are the cause of vehicular obesity is to ignore the last 30 years of "development"

          1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

            Re: Second Hand?

            I don't think anyone has suggested that EVs are the cause, all cars are getting bigger as they're inflated with extra safety features, it's just that batteries have a far lower energy to size/weight ratio than liquid fuels. For small sizes of car the batteries take up proportionately more space, and add more weight, so there's a real problem of diminishing returns. For something like a Fiat 500 the EV version carries a 40% weight penalty over the petrol version (1400kg versus 980kg), and has 1/3 the range. Look at a family saloon-sized car & the difference is less marked, as is the price differential. A small EV makes little sense economically.

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: Second Hand?

              "far lower energy to size/weight ratio than liquid fuels. For small sizes of car the batteries take up proportionately more space, and add more weight, so there's a real problem of diminishing returns. For something like a Fiat 500 the EV version carries a 40% weight penalty over the petrol version (1400kg versus 980kg), and has 1/3 the range."

              Petrol has a calorific energy density that IS much greater, but much of that gets thrown away through inefficiency. There's also a tremendous amount of energy put into making petroleum fuels that makes the end-to-end efficiency pretty dismal. Range is an issue if its an issue. If you have a 15 mile commute each way to work and back and can charge at home, a 1st gen Nissan Leaf with 70 miles of range is fine. If you can charge (slowly) at work/train station, it's way more than enough. It might make sense for auto makers to have limited range options for some of their more practical EV's. A smaller battery pack weighs less so the car will be more efficient. If somebody is looking for something to use as a commuter or it's a government mob that supplies cars to somebody such as a social worker, long distance range may not be a giant concern.

              1. Ian Johnston Silver badge

                Re: Second Hand?

                I wonder if there is a market for a car with a shortish-range battery for commuting for which one can hire a larger battery for long trips.

                1. DS999 Silver badge

                  Re: Second Hand?

                  Where are you going to put the larger battery? You could fit a lot of battery in the trunk, but you kind of want that space for luggage on a "long trip".

                2. MachDiamond Silver badge

                  Re: Second Hand?

                  "I wonder if there is a market for a car with a shortish-range battery for commuting for which one can hire a larger battery for long trips."

                  AC Propulsion built a limited run of Scion van (xB?) EV conversions and built a range extender on a trailer to haul behind for long trips. Not only would the petrol engine in the trailer run a generator to feed electrons to the car, it also had space for a fair amount of luggage. I find that idea as pure gold. You wouldn't own the trailer, but rent it as and when. It does require the hardware/software on the car to be able to use a system like that, but it isn't hard to implement.

              2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                Re: Second Hand?

                There's also a tremendous amount of energy put into making petroleum fuels that makes the end-to-end efficiency pretty dismal.

                Which is completely irrelevant to the topic of having a small EV. All that petroleum production is happening in a refinery somewhere, you aren't dragging it around with you. The point about small EVs is that batteries are big, heavy and inefficient when compared to a tank of hydrocarbon. With a large vehicle those inefficiences have proportionally less effect, you have space toi spare, but a little car barely has room for a small engine, small fuel tank & small luggage space. Even a moderate increase in battery capacity in a small EV can have a huge effect on the space available for other purposes, the difference between, say, a 35litre and 45litre fuel tank is relatively insignificant, in weight or space.

      2. DoctorPaul Bronze badge

        Re: Second Hand?

        Applies to all modern cars...

        FTFY a classic car fan.

    2. andy gibson

      Re: Second Hand?

      Agree. I've never bought a brand new car in my life. A second hand ICE vehicle will have some wear and tear, but if the previous owner maintained it - should give me a lifetime of use.

      Maybe I don't know enough about second hand EV batteries, but I don't feel that would be the same with an EV.

      Perhaps I just need to look at it differently - instead of the cost of engine servicing over a longer term, put that cost towards new batteries?

      1. Tilda Rice

        Re: Second Hand?

        Actually, your only valid point is the EV battery issue.

        In all other respects, EV cars are much simplar and more reliable. ICE cars are way more complicated mechanically, and more prone to more numerous drivertrain issues. I'd always hated buying second hand ICE cars (someone elses problems they are offloading onto the unsuspecting) Nah.

        Contrasting reports on EV reliability fixate on Software issues, Climate Control (geesh) and "build quality" - none say the actual driving the car part is less reliable as clearly that's not true its the opposite.

        1. theOtherJT Silver badge

          Re: Second Hand?

          The problem is it's not the "driving part" that goes wrong, is it? Every single car I've owned has developed some sort of electrical fault at some point. The difference is that older cars you just go "Well, I guess the steering wheel adjustment is staying where it is now then." or "Do I really carethat the climate control in the rear seats isn't working independently?" hell, if the car is old enough it's "I guess ABS was an optional extra on this model anyway so it not working on this one is no worse than me buying one without it..."

          In modern cars (and, yes, this does apply to modern petrol cars as much as EV's) they have an annoying tendency to go "Satnav's not working. I shall sit here and refuse to co-operate until you go through a 15 step dance with the infotainment system to put it into Maintenance mode so you can drive it at a maximum of 30mph to the nearest manufacturer approved service centre"

          It's no good the batteries and motors working perfectly if the bloody computer system that runs it all has sat down and had a tantrum because the sensor that tells it the boot lid isn't properly closed has decided to pack up.

          1. blackcat Silver badge

            Re: Second Hand?

            In addition to this with older cars you could usually find a wiring diagram and debug a fault or get the ECU to blink lights and go hunting from there. Now everything has multiple control units, CAN everywhere, more error codes than you can count, each control unit has to be programmed... the list goes on.

            Pine hollow auto diagnostics on youtube is a great channel if you like serious electrical debugging.

            And superfastmatt who did a video on the evolution of the Tesla door handle from OMFG insanely complex to just normal stupidly complex.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bea4FS-zDzc

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: Second Hand?

              "And superfastmatt who did a video on the evolution of the Tesla door handle from OMFG insanely complex to just normal stupidly complex."

              Matt points out a thing about Tesla that I see as a negative, they constantly update the cars, on a whim it seems sometimes, rather than doing an annual or mid-term revamp. That can make is exceptionally hard to source repair parts since the cars are so reliant on software, can you replace an "upgraded" part with something prior that may have actually been installed originally but now some black box has been flashed with new firmware that won't operate with that older part in place? I'd rather be able to look up a part that fits the model year car I have rather than the model "week". I'm sure I'd have a better chance of finding a part second hand if it's been used on a car for at least a whole year or better, more than one year.

              1. blackcat Silver badge

                Re: Second Hand?

                This is also my gripe with Tesla, coupled with the 7 series price and the 1 series build quality.

                They are shipping what are basically prototype cars and fixing as they go. Yes your time to market is a lot shorter but you now have an infinite variety of different spec cars that look essentially identical. IIRC the early model 3s were all recalled for a suspension refit.

                The repairability of a Telsa does not look good.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Second Hand?

                Or, since the part has the same connector, and IO, and mounting points, that it simply fits in the old hole and does the job with new precision and increased durability. Did you not watch Matt's video to the end?

            2. Ian Johnston Silver badge

              Re: Second Hand?

              And superfastmatt who did a video on the evolution of the Tesla door handle from OMFG insanely complex to just normal stupidly complex.

              Meanwhile I have a fifty year old Citroen DS with very similar door handles which contain precisely one moving part and haven't gone wrong in half a century. Tesla have the Juicero mindset, in spades.

              1. blackcat Silver badge

                Re: Second Hand?

                "Juicero"

                The very pinnacle of Sillycon Valley consumerist wankery.

          2. Ian Johnston Silver badge

            Re: Second Hand?

            In modern cars (and, yes, this does apply to modern petrol cars as much as EV's) they have an annoying tendency to go "Satnav's not working. I shall sit here and refuse to co-operate until you go through a 15 step dance with the infotainment system to put it into Maintenance mode so you can drive it at a maximum of 30mph to the nearest manufacturer approved service centre"

            I have a modern-ish New Beetle convertible (a Golf in drag, basically) which annoys the hell out of me for this. The engine check light can mean "I got a slightly unusual reading from one sensor for a tenth of a second" or it can mean "Stop now or your engine will explode" and it looks precisely the same in each case. I carry around a code reader just to check and reset its many false positives.

            I also discovered the hard way that if a wire fails inside the passenger door when it is locked, you have to cut off the interior door trim and then cut through the door frame to get access, because there is no manual override to the lock and the three separate computers in the door are fixed in position and wired up before the skin is welded on. The designers of the original (Type 1) Beetle must be spinning in their graves.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Second Hand?

              VW does not build good cars, and hasn't in decades. The only way I'd ever own a VW is at a "disposable" price.

              (Now that I think about it, I did once briefly own a VW, a Passat, I think. It was $500.)

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Second Hand?

              The designers of the original (Type 1) Beetle must be spinning in their graves.

              Ferdinand Porsche, at the request of Hitler? I think any grave rotation will be fuelled by other things...

            3. 0laf Silver badge

              Re: Second Hand?

              My Mrs Mini is the same. Recently it went thorugh some veyr heavy rain and the the "check engine" light came on. Car was fine, not a stutter. Dig around online said that it's probably just a splash of water on a sensor. Get a code reader, nothing. Can I clear the alert, no. Not without a visit to the stealer.

            4. DancesWithPoultry
              Flame

              Re: Second Hand?

              > The engine check light can mean "I got a slightly unusual reading from one sensor for a tenth of a second" or it can mean "Stop now or your engine will explode"

              I'd love to meet the cheesewhistle that decided to use the same warning lamp for a fouled lambda sensor (I'll just carry on up the M6 and fix it tomorrow), to indicate a cam chain problem.

              Don't ask me how I managed to find this out. I just did. OK.

            5. werdsmith Silver badge

              Re: Second Hand?

              I have a very modern car. When I removed the dashcam wiring kit, I put a piggy back fuse back in the wrong slot. I then got in the car and drove off, various dash lights came on warning of things not working but the thing just drove like normal.

        2. Ian Johnston Silver badge

          Re: Second Hand?

          ICE cars are way more complicated mechanically, and more prone to more numerous drivertrain issues.

          Over the past few years I have run into the ground and scrapped a Nissan Micra K11 (160,000 miles at the end), a VW Golf (285,000) and a Citroën Berlingo (150,000). In each case the terminal disease was rust - the engines and drivetrains were absolutely fine. Electric vehicles are certainly simpler, but the car industry has had a hundred years to make IC powertrains pretty near bombproof.

          1. blackcat Silver badge

            Re: Second Hand?

            It does seem from some of the early Tesla failures and even more recent EV failures that lessons learned about keeping various fluids within or outside of certain components has been lost. I've seen a few EV batteries incl a merc and an MG one which were pretty soggy on the inside. I think it is a tesla pack where there is a steel cover that rots and lets the water in. And issues of cooling water mixing with oil in motors.

            For at a good 30 years now ICE cars have not felt the need to mark their territory every time you park up.

            1. J. Cook Silver badge
              Joke

              Re: Second Hand?

              For at a good 30 years now ICE cars have not felt the need to mark their territory every time you park up

              Heh. We are in the "hot and HUMID" season here in Arizona, and if the car has air conditioning, it's marking it's territory with a puddle of condensed water when it's initially parked after a bit of driving about.

              However, I'm pretty sure that you meant that it was dripping oil, and yeah, that is a sign of an issue that needs to be addressed. :D

            2. CountCadaver Silver badge

              Re: Second Hand?

              Well apart from anything with a land rover badge where the owner worries when it stops leaking oil

          2. John Robson Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: Second Hand?

            "IC powertrains pretty near bombproof."

            When regularly serviced by a competent mechanic, and fed a regular diet of oils and other fluids...

            Which is much harder to do outside of a garage nowadays - a friend's WAV had to be taken away for two weeks because she dared to but 5l of AdBlue into it, rather than the 10l which is supposed to be added each time... Note that the AdBlue tank is one thing that was modified as part of the WAV conversion, so...

          3. martinusher Silver badge

            Re: Second Hand?

            I can second this -- I live in sunny Southern California where vehicles just don't rust. Our cars are trundling along just fine at 100K and 150K miles. The rubber bits will eventually give out but they can be replaced, then the paint and trim, also replaceable. California cars do eventually die but typically its because they get exported to the Rust Belt -- a California car is highly prized in much of the US because its rust free.

            Electrics are now common here, especially in the most upscale neighborhoods. There's starting to be one tiny snag with them though, and that's money. Its not just the cost to buy, its way too high despite, and probably because of, subsidies. Filling them up used to be expensive but now its seen as quite the potential money spinner -- people have noticed in several places that a few hundred miles of power is starting to cost as much as, or more, than the equivalent in fuel.

            (Yes, you can charge at home, have solar panels etc. but the utilities have been working with the PUC to make that thoroughly uneconomic.)(The British should be well familiar with the "Heads we win, Tails you lose" school of economics.)

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: Second Hand?

              "The rubber bits will eventually give out but they can be replaced"

              The lack of rubber bits is one of the reasons my Buick had to be "put down". The main reason was a blown head gasket and it would have been more than the car was worth to have that work done, but I might have put the money out if the door and window seals weren't all bad and unavailable as well. While the value of the car was less than the engine repairs, the cost to replace the car with an equivalent vehicle was more than that.

              1. cyberdemon Silver badge
                Coat

                Re: Second Hand?

                > The lack of rubber bits is one of the reasons my Buick had to be "put down".

                I guess you could say, it's Buicked

                1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                  Re: Second Hand?

                  "I guess you could say, it's Buicked"

                  I wouldn't. That car was a boring, white four door sedan that was amazingly comfortable on trips, got pretty good economy on the highway and nobody messed with it. Given a range of cars to pull over, cops would likely pick that car last. I never was ticketed in it and only pulled over once for a non-working number plate light that seemed to work just fine when I got to the store and had a look....hmmmmm. The final score was 260kish miles.

            2. Ian Johnston Silver badge

              Re: Second Hand?

              a California car is highly prized in much of the US because its rust free.

              The bulkhead on my Triumph Herald spent the the first thirty years of its life on a car in California. It is completely, totally rust free ... unlike the tracery it replaced.

              1. DoctorPaul Bronze badge

                Re: Second Hand?

                Upvote for the Herald owner.

                Back in the day, our family car was a Triumph Vitesse and boy was that fun! That was when a major manufacturer like Triumph went "We've got a lovely little family car with the 1250cc Herald, why don't we drop in a sodding great 2 litre straight six and see how it goes?"

          4. David Hicklin Silver badge

            Re: Second Hand?

            > In each case the terminal disease was rust

            That used to be the case for all my cars but the last 2 died from mechanical wear which would have cost too much to fix - the body work was just fine.

        3. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Second Hand?

          "EV cars are much simplar and more reliable."

          Not necessarily. Not as many mechanics are versed in EV repair, some companies don't release critical repair information and some companies create issues with getting parts. The other issue is many EV's are being overly complicated with add-ons that can affect the car's data buss in strange ways. How is a video rear view mirror simpler than silvered glass?

          1. stiine Silver badge

            Re: Second Hand?

            It works equally as well with a back seat stacked to the root with boxes.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Second Hand?

          Actually, your only valid point is the EV battery issue.

          In all other respects, EV cars are much simplar and more reliable.

          .. until you have a flat. They don't ship EVs with spare tires because of the fear the user will place the jack in the wrong place and make a dent in the battery (read: make it short and go up in flames).

          The fact that I need to have a car towed because of a stupid flat tire is enough for me to keep well away from it all. I've had one for a while, and I was not impressed. That may be my use case, of course, but there's so much to dislike that a market return to at least hybrids is not exactly a surprise to me.

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: Second Hand?

            A car with a spare wheel? I remember them. I have a good memory.

            1. Helcat Silver badge

              Re: Second Hand?

              Oddly, mine has a spare. Thought it came with a puncture repair kit, had said puncture, opened boot to get the kit and... found the spare.

              It's a '21 plate, so pretty modern.

              Okay, okay, it's a 'space saver' temporary tire, but it's been out and in use twice this year (yes, potholes are the tire killer around here), keeping me mobile without the need of calling for help, so I'm not complaining.

            2. CountCadaver Silver badge

              Re: Second Hand?

              My focus last year came with a full sized spare (2023 model)

        5. Roopee Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: Second Hand?

          Err... BEVs may be simpler, but hybrids definitely aren’t - they have both technologies, obviously...

          My rather old hybrid, bought used, is literally the diesel version with a (too-small) motor and battery tacked on. More to go wrong, not less. But it does improve the fuel economy a bit, and more importantly (for me) it massively reduces the car tax (VED) because the government classed it as “alternative fuel”, which clearly it isn’t - VED was £25 this year :)

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: Second Hand?

            They hybrids have a less stressed drivetrain.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Second Hand?

        "A second hand ICE vehicle will have some wear and tear, but if the previous owner maintained it - should give me a lifetime of use."

        Unpredictable. Years ago I bought a 2nd hand Sierra with 60k on the clock - suspiciously exact but that might have just been good fleet management - which was up to about 180k when it finally had to go. This was at the time when I was freelancing and tearing up and down the country a good deal*.

        In 2013 and already long retired I bought a new Skoda Superb thinking that that, carefully maintained, should probably last out my driving days. The famous VAG build quality & all that. It was scrupulously maintained despite not doing that much mileage, what with Covid & all that. Last autumn it started using oil and it was discovered that the sump was rusting through & leaking - something I'd never experienced before in nearly 60 years of driving but which the garage tells me is frequent these days**. It hen started using oil again, no good reason, it was just starting to burn it. I decided it was time for it to go. So from brand new and well maintained, to less miles on the clock than that old ex-fleet Sierra and already showing signs of engine wear. Maybe my new Subaru hybrid*** will see out my driving days instead - it should certainly get up the hill in snow rather better.

        * There was an episode where it refused to engage 1st at M1 junction 37 - seized 1st motion shaft. On thinking back the last geat change had been M40 Junc 9

        ** Quite possibly old engines used to lose a bit of oil through breathers etc so the outside of the typical sump was too oily to rot.

        *** I did look at a Tucson PEV but it was even bigger than the Skoda which I considered as more or less the limit for narrow lanes. In consequence I miss the boot size of that the Skoda and Tucson had. The Subby only just fits my friend's wheelchair.

      3. Max Pyat

        Re: Second Hand?

        "a lifetime of use"?

        Are you telling us you've got a terminal illness?

        Most ICE vehicles struggle to get past 20yrs. I recently retired a 20yr old Audi diesel (only 200k miles though). Engine was still fine, but corrosion was starting to get a grip. Plus the electrics were increasingly haunted.

        Even if you manage to protect the metalwork of the car, the various plastics become brittle over that time period and start to crack and fail

        I considered an electric, and the battery was the least of my worries to be honest. The chemistry and thermal management has progressed a lot, and loss of capacity seems to be less than forecast in most cases. However you can still get issues (eg kia Niro EVs with gearbox failures), plus corrosion and plastic embrittlment will hit EVs too over a couple of decades

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Second Hand?

          Most ICE vehicles struggle to get past 20yrs

          .. so we have as yet no data to compare longevity then, unless you incorporate UK's milk delivery vehicles in the analysis. Until then, that's not really a factor on the table since the most critical (and expensive) EV component, the battery, doesn't seem to last past 5 years or so. Given its high cost of replacement (from manufacturer only, there is as yet not really a replacement market) I am not convinced its TCO is better for all use cases without massive subsidies - and those will eventually be clawed back, so enjoy them while they last.

          There is also its weight and torque it puts on the road. That impacts tires (EV tires are quite different from ICE ones), bearings, brakes and the road itself which translates into higher road wear. Bonus problem is that when you run a flat there is AFAIK no manufacturer that risks letting end users misplace a car jack and so crushing a corner of the battery with all the consequences, so you'll always have to be transported to the garage because towing is out as well (oh, and that transport? 99 times out of 100 that's done with an ICE, but I digress).

          I don't think we're anywhere near able to make a long term assessment just yet.

      4. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: Second Hand?

        EV batteries report of their state of health much better than an ICE does - and they degrade gracefully (unlike an ICE which can fail suddenly and hard)

        It will take a very long time before a new battery is needed, and it might be that you choose to sell on to someone who doesn't need as much range as you do and get a newer second hand vehicle.

        Take the total cost of ownership - Servicing, fuel, insurance, vehicle tax, finance/depreciation, warranty...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Second Hand?

          Take the total cost of ownership - Servicing, fuel, insurance, vehicle tax, finance/depreciation, warranty...

          Yes, depreciation is where the pain sits. AFAIK it's more a black hole right now although it's starting to improve. I suspect it's the lack of confidence in the battery longevity that plays here.

      5. vtcodger Silver badge

        Re: Second Hand?

        No, you're quite right. Here in the US even new ICE cars lose almost 10% of their "value" as soon as they get a few hundred meters from the dealer showroom. And they lose another 10% per year for the first few years of ownership. Financially, the optimum strategy clearly is to buy a three or so year old low mileage used vehicle. Preferably a model that hasn't proven to be a reliability disaster in its first few model years. I don't imagine that the situation is much different in the UK.

        Currently, EVs and PHEVs are, not unreasonably, even worse than ICE/HEV depreciation wise. I'd quote some numbers, but the ones I find online seem to me to be probably distorted by Hertz-Rent-a-car dumping a large number of EVs into the used market, Musk's aggressive price cutting, and high interest rates. Ignoring all that, EVs are still quite costly to begin with, and it's not all that clear what maintenance costs on an elderly EV/PHEV are going to be whereas it's pretty clear that a ICE (or older HEV) without excessive miles may well last well into its second decade before it becomes too aggravating/unreliable to keep on the road.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Second Hand?

          "Here in the US even new ICE cars lose almost 10% of their "value" as soon as they get a few hundred meters from the dealer showroom."

          They don't even have to move. Once they have been officially sold, they are considered a used car and that 10% is gone.

    3. Julian Poyntz

      Re: Second Hand?

      For me, a EV via salary sacrifice is a good deal

      The SO is looking at getting a new car, and for the cars she is after there is next to no difference between petrol vs BEV.

      1. Julian Poyntz

        Re: Second Hand?

        Should have said this is 2nd hand

        DS DS 3 crossback, Citreon C3 Aircross

    4. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Second Hand?

      "A survey recently (European & US I believe, I cannot find the link) showed that those who where proponents of EVs were generally much better off financially, lived in property that meant charging was not an issue and had access to other vehicles that were ICE."

      In the US, the EV models for sale are generally larger, more feature-laden and expensive than their petrol equivalents. Those proponents might also be happy to be driving a brand new car that they been told has all of the modern features that customers demand (with no studies to show who/why). Having off-street parking and access to charging at home is a key to an EV making a lot of sense. It also makes sense to put off the purchase of a really expensive new car when you are leasing your home and wind up circling several blocks to find parking every time you come home.

    5. Glenn Amspaugh

      Re: Second Hand?

      Was planning on a second car EV purchase in 2025-2027 timeframe but came across a 2019 Chevy Cruz (small turbo1.4L sedan) with 6400 miles (single owner, retiree in Phoenix) that gets 40 - 60 MPG, for $17k.

      Could not pass on this deal and not going majorly in debt for a new EV really works out as wife and I approach retirment age.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Second Hand?

        That's a shit car for a shit price.

        My PHEV was $10k when I bought it at 3 years old. I guarantee it's more fun and more comfortable than that shitbox.

      2. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Second Hand?

        Chevvy Cruze, we call them Vauxhall (Opel) Astra, it's a European design from when Opel were part of GM.

        Now the Astra is built by Stellantis, so the newer ones are in the same family as Chrysler.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Naysayer

    This comment is going to be pretty negative but I am a supporter of a move from fossil fuels. Just seems like it's not being led by consumer desire, which is the best way. Same with heat pumps.

    My relative has just taken delivery of an EV. EVs were the only option as her company car. I strongly suspect it is this fleet management policy that is driving EV sales. If large company fleets only offer EV then the figures are (artificially?) buoyant. That said she has gone from £400 a month company car tax on a petrol car to £25 a month tax on an EV, so pretty happy. She went for a plug-in hybrid, as a tiny baby step towards electric travel. Hybrids that charge the battery as you drive were not available. I promise you the car will never be running in electric mode because she does not have a charger at home. Instead her miles-per-gallon for petrol usage will take the hit of having to carry a huge battery around. Doesn't matter financial to her - company car with petrol included - does matter environmentally but I'm not blaming the drivers/buyers.

    1. Andy The Hat Silver badge

      Re: Naysayer

      I was quite astounded to get a lift in a hybrid the other day and found out that it did 38mpg ... My smelly old Fiat will do 52mpg and my older diesel would breach 70mpg ... To me, hybrids are a great idea but mostly implemented to get a green badge ...

      1. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: Naysayer

        There's something very wrong there. Our family sized, hatchback Honda hybrid, with aircon almost always on gets 40-50 mpg easily. Slightly less in very cold weather, significantly more on decent runs of more than a couple of miles. Certainly 70+ on motorway runs.

        1. blackcat Silver badge

          Re: Naysayer

          Honda hybrids have always been very good although a bit quirky! (Gen 1 Insight, I'm looking at you!) Although the 2011/12 and newer Honda hybrids are starting to exhibit BMS failure issues.

          Some of the PHEVs seem to have been tuned for getting the best around town CO2 figures when fully charged and there is little scrutiny of their pure ICE performance once it runs out of elec.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Naysayer

            "Some of the PHEVs seem to have been tuned for getting the best around town CO2 figures when fully charged and there is little scrutiny of their pure ICE performance once it runs out of elec."

            On average, that can be a valid way to look at it. Start/stop driving is going to be the most polluting. A majority of people use their cars for much shorter trips over long distance travel.

        2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Naysayer

          "There's something very wrong there."

          Agreed. I've had a couple of HEVs as hire cars and both got in the region of 60-70mpg, comparable to my "dirty diesel", on long trips (pretty much all I ever do). Neither were PHEV, but charged the fairly small battery while driving so it was always full or nearly so by the time I came to doing any town driving, which generally meant they used battery most of the time in town.

      2. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Naysayer

        Our Hybrid does 60+ usually around 62mpg around town, I can get it into the high 70s with some really careful driving.

        On long fast run this goes down into the 50s. If the car is only getting 38 then it is badly driven, very large and heavy and you are talking about US gallons.

    2. GregC

      Re: Naysayer

      As mentioned in the article, there's no doubt it's fleet sales driving the EV numbers - the tax incentives for the driver are too good to ignore. Even ignoring that factor though, going EV for a company car makes sense for me - we have charging points at work so that's not a problem and "my" car (Kia Niro) is a very nice drive (and has the bonus of not looking like it fell off the cover of a 60's sci-fi novel!).

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Naysayer

        Personal car EVs make no sense to purchase from a dealer.

        Companies can use salary sacrifice schemes to lease them with tax incentives and they are then much much cheaper.

        So many people drive them using this scheme, they don't appear as private vehicles on the figures but they are personal cars.

        EV FUD merchants are jumping on this, but there is only bad news for them.

    3. Potemkine! Silver badge

      Re: Naysayer

      I've got an example of a company moving its fleet to EV. Refunds for hotel nights skyrocketed because of the lack of autonomy of EV compared to ICE so people couldn't get home. The company went backwards for the sake of family life of its employees.

      With electricity cost rising fast, I'm not sure the difference with gas in term of cost is so important nowadays.

      There's no absolute truth, each case must be evaluated to make a choice not based on dogma.

      1. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: Naysayer

        "Refunds for hotel nights skyrocketed because of the lack of autonomy of EV compared to ICE so people couldn't get home"

        Not an issue with autonomy, but with uneducated users.

        "With electricity cost rising fast, I'm not sure the difference with gas in term of cost is so important nowadays."

        Petrol is ~1.45, Diesel is ~1.50 at the moment (RAC) - that's £6.58/£6.80 per gallon.

        Domestic charging is 7p for ~4 miles (1.75p/mile)

        For cost parity that needs 376mpg or 389mpg - and the UK average is just 36/43 (nimblefins). So petrol is more than 10 times as expensive, and diesel 9 times.

        It's entirely true that most (non Tesla) DC charging stations are much more expensive - they end up at about the same cost as petrol (Tesla often a little over half that).

        But they also account for a *tiny* proportion of charging... And should only ever account for a tiny proportion of charging.

        Recently a bank of DC chargers has appeared at a shopping centre near me, and it infuriates me. Sure have a couple, but also have an entire area (or more) of the car park supplied with AC units - same max power demand, but much more useful for most people. They're substantially cheaper to buy and install, so the energy cost can be commensurately lower.

        I'd go further and drop VAT on AC charger supplied electrons to 5% (or even 0%) to match domestic supply.

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: Naysayer

          "Refunds for hotel nights skyrocketed because of the lack of autonomy of EV compared to ICE so people couldn't get home"

          Not an issue with autonomy, but with uneducated users.

          Domestic charging is 7p for ~4 miles (1.75p/mile)

          Users on business trips are, by definition, not going to be within range of domestic charging, so that's a pretty nonsensical comment. Even an educated user on such a trip would have to charge the car at a public charger, where they're more likely to be paying 60p/unit, and that assumes they can be without the car for long enough on a business day to put a full charge in.

          I'd go further and drop VAT on AC charger supplied electrons to 5% (or even 0%) to match domestic supply.

          Very nice, for all the taxpayers who'll be subsidising it.

          I'd leave the VAT at 20%, the same as for petrol/diesel, and then add the 35% fuel duty charge as well. That would be a more level playing field.

          1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

            Re: Naysayer

            Domestic charging is 7p for ~4 miles (1.75p/mile)

            Users on business trips are, by definition, not going to be within range of domestic charging, so that's a pretty nonsensical comment. Even an educated user on such a trip would have to charge the car at a public charger, where they're more likely to be paying 60p/unit, and that assumes they can be without the car for long enough on a business day to put a full charge in.

            Domestic charging assumes you have off road parking too.

            Fast chargers around me are 79p/kWh. My home power is 21.22.

          2. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Naysayer

            "Users on business trips are, by definition, not going to be within range of domestic charging, so that's a pretty nonsensical comment. Even an educated user on such a trip would have to charge the car at a public charger, where they're more likely to be paying 60p/unit, and that assumes they can be without the car for long enough on a business day to put a full charge in."

            It's not required to put a full charge in an EV each time it's plugged in. In fact, it can be a waste of time unless the car isn't needed. If there is a need to do a lot of miles with limited time out that can be used for charging, it would make the most sense to have an EV that charges fast. VW and Kia/Hyundai have models that can charge from 10-80% in under 20 minutes with a suitable charger (over 250kW). It has the added benefit of enforcing some breaks during the day so employees aren't at risk through driving hours on end.

            Many businesses have EV charging since there can be grants so a business traveler might be able to make arrangements to charge when visiting. More and more hotels have basic Level 2 charging so somebody with overnight stays and an EV should be looking for hotels that offer charging. People that do field service work often need to spend time filling out paperwork so using the time the vehicle is charging to do that rather than waiting until evening is a good use of time.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Naysayer

              The original poster's comment was that the overnight stay was only needed because the car didn't hold enough charge for a full return trip in a day, so suggesting using a hotel with an EV charger is rather missing the point.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Naysayer

              Given that we do not have charging at work and I don't have the ability to charge at home I advised my company that an EV would be a bad idea - they offered no alternatives.

              Now I have HR chasing me to approve a policy change, and I told them to go away until they either allow me to bill the personal time I waste waiting for the thing to fast charge, or to allow me to charge during work hours. And yes, that car has only ever seen a fast charges since as I don't spend hours in shops and am not planning to change that any time soon.

              If I give you perfectly logical and evidence supported arguments not to do something and you go ahead anyway, please don't come whining to me afterwards.

              It's not complicated.

    4. Missing Semicolon Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Naysayer

      You want a 2016 Outlander PHEV. No road tax. Otherwise, a pretty miserable hybrid, so a normal, slightly thirsty SUV.

      1. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: Naysayer

        "No road tax."

        Hasn't been for nearly a century

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Naysayer

          Hasn't been for nearly a century

          Go on the government website portal where you can pay for it and see what they call it.

    5. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Naysayer

      "Hybrids that charge the battery as you drive were not available. I promise you the car will never be running in electric mode because she does not have a charger at home. Instead her miles-per-gallon for petrol usage will take the hit of having to carry a huge battery around. Doesn't matter financial to her - company car with petrol included - does matter environmentally but I'm not blaming the drivers/buyers.

      Charging a traction battery with a petrol engine isn't cost effective. Many people that have a company PHEV never take the wraps off of the granny charger as that means an increase in their electricity bill. Why do that if the company is paying for petrol?

      I can see a company insisting an EV only for a company car and not paying for charging as a cost saving measure.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Naysayer

        "granny charger"

        What's that? Not a type of charger I've ever heard of, and I've been around a good few years.

        1. Evil Scot Bronze badge

          Re: Naysayer

          A BS1363 13A plug to Type 2 cable.

          Also known as a Mode 2 charger.

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: Naysayer

            Thanks. I'm not sure my Granny would understand (or care, she's been dead over 20 years!) why the OP called it a granny charger though.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Naysayer

              why the OP called it a granny charger though

              It's the last-resort way to charge your car when you're visiting your Granny.

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Naysayer

          "What's that? Not a type of charger I've ever heard of, and I've been around a good few years."

          It's the charge lead that comes with many EV's to plug into a 120v outlet in the US or a bog standard 13a outlet in the UK giving you the slowest charge rate possible. For some, that's all they need.

      2. DoctorPaul Bronze badge

        Re: Naysayer

        Didn't I read somewhere that many fleet hybrids are only ever run on fuel, companies buy them because the subsidies reduce the capital outlay?

        1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

          Re: Naysayer

          I had a Verizon tech on site a while ago for an MPLS configure and go live. They had all been provided with plugin Prius. His charge cable was still in the sealed bag in the boot. He said the company didn't give them an option for new cars, but no one he knew with them actually plugged them in, they only ran on petrol.

  3. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Flame

    "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

    Not to mention that no country has the power generation required to replace all ICE cars with EVs.

    But hey, not to worry, we'll all do like Germany and build new coal-powered energy stations to power all those wonderful climate-respecting EVs, right ?

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

      Care to name any of the new coal-powered plants? The lifetimes of some are indeed being extended but there are no plans for new ones. Mind you, I don't know what half of Europe is going to do in cold, dark winters in the future.

    2. nematoad Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

      Yes.

      I have often wondered where does all the electricity for these vehicles come from? Speaking to a member of the Green Party at the recent general election he said that the hope was it would come from renewables like wind and solar, hah. Hope, that will have to do for now. In the mean time we have to rely on gas and oil power stations and (shudder) nuclear.

      It might be a nice to get a little green sticker for your number plate but the pollution is hidden away at the power station.

      Oh, thinking about those smug little green stickers. Wasn't one of the reasons the UK didn't fully embrace the blue EU badge was because there wasn't enough room on the plate? Yet there *IS* room for a green "badge of honour"?

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

        "and (shudder) nuclear."

        What's your problem with nuclear?

        "It might be a nice to get a little green sticker for your number plate but the pollution is hidden away at the power station."

        While true, it also means all the pollution is going up a relatively few industrial chimneys where industrial grade scrubbers are installed instead of out of millions of small exhausts on the vehicles.

        I'm no evangelist for either side, and can't afford a BEV with the range/fast charge options that I need for the miles I do so will stick with my diesel, but I'm not going to poo poo either side over fantasy "issues" when there are enough real issues on both sides already to argue over :-p

        1. TDog

          Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

          i thought the green sticker referred to "little green men", universally known to be caused by nuclear power and or anal probing aliens

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

        "I have often wondered where does all the electricity for these vehicles come from? "

        It will come from the power that isn't being used at refiners to turn crude oil into transportation fuels.

    3. Adair Silver badge

      Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

      Yeah, the whole nation is going to switch to EVs overnight, and the power grid is going to stay exactly as it is.

      Some how or other I suspect, given the human capacity for adaptability, we will find a way of making things work, even if it's not what either of us are expecting.

      1. Evil Scot Bronze badge

        Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

        Here in the UK the grid can cope with higher current draws of 8.5kW between 6 and 9 AM. (electric showers)

        Home EV chargers operate at 7.2kW between 12:30 and 5:30 and most cars will charge on average twice a week.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

          Here in the UK the grid can cope with higher current draws of 8.5kW between 6 and 9 AM. (electric showers)

          If you spend as much time under the shower as you would charging a car it's no wonder we have water shortages!

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

          "Here in the UK the grid can cope with higher current draws of 8.5kW between 6 and 9 AM. (electric showers)"

          With politicians making noise about banning gas, where's the plan to replace all of the boilers with electric water heating?

    4. John Robson Silver badge

      Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

      Well our grid is already running at a lower capacity than it did twenty years ago by more than enough to cover all car driving in the UK.

      Of course there is lower generation capacity now, but we're not going to switch in ten minutes, it'll be ten-twenty years beyond the final ICE vehicle sale.

    5. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

      "Not to mention that no country has the power generation required to replace all ICE cars with EVs."

      You will need to show your work or there will be no credit for that answer.

      To refine crude oil into petrol takes 7.4kWh/USgallon according to an Argonne National Labs study. 7.46kWh times 3.5miles/kWh is 26.11 miles. With my car only getting around 32mpg, the petrol is only adding less than 6 miles to the electricity it took to refine it.

      The problem winds up being more about distribution rather than generation which needs to be taken into consideration going forward. Somebody getting an EV is likely replacing their use of a petrol/diesel vehicle which means that much less consumption at the refinery.

      1. Spazturtle Silver badge

        Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

        You are assuming that kWh means electricity, most of the energy usage by oil refineries is in the form of oil, why would they use electric heaters when they can just burn oil?

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

          They can also generate their own power, but I think they have a bit of a deal with the power generators. Fawley used to have a special dedicated feed.

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: "cost and lack of charging infrastructure"

          "You are assuming that kWh means electricity, most of the energy usage by oil refineries is in the form of oil, why would they use electric heaters when they can just burn oil?"

          I am not assuming. Very few refineries burn their product to create the energy they need to make their product. The couple that do use the lowest, dirtiest grade of sludge that isn't good for much else and can only get away with that due to being grandfathered in on the emissions. Using electricity for heating also gives more precise control. The pumps run on electrons and right behind the number of pipes is the number of pumps and valves.

  4. Terry 6 Silver badge

    No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

    .... to some potential buyers' decision-making

    Cost of vehicles, yes. But also, public charging costs, too.

    The already expensive EV will cost about 30% more per mile for drivers who don't have home charging. i.e. a significant proportion of house owners/renters in towns and cities, and all flat dwellers if they (can) charge in the street.

    It is of course much cheaper for the lucky ones with off-street parking and a home charger.

    It's expensive to be poor.The Vimes' Boots Theory raises its head again

    1. Mast1

      Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

      The irony is as to how brands of politicians in the UK, who are supposedly on the side of the poor, introduce taxes that are retrospective in effect, and a form of regressive taxation on the poor.

      I bought a second-hand car back in 2002, with a 1600 cc engine, that was low to midsize, and fairly economical for the range available at the time. After purchase, the then chancellor introduced a new form of car taxation based on the relatively new "fairer" concept of tailpipe CO2 emissions. Rather than introduce this on all cars manufactured after a certain date, hence a market signalling and forewarning, this new set of rates applied on all cars, irrespective of age. My car just fell into an upper category of emission, so I ended up paying more tax than previously.

      Although I am not "poor", it did strike me as to how the tradesman/night worker often uses a second-hand vehicle to perform his/her job, and was caught by this.

      A strange definition of "fairer".

      1. nematoad Silver badge
        Headmaster

        Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

        The irony is as to how brands of politicians in the UK, who are supposedly on the side of the poor, introduce taxes that are retrospective in effect,"

        I think that the word you are looking for is regressive.

        Retrospective would be if the government started charging for things that had happened in the past.

        Oh, see also HMRC and its shenanigans.

        1. Yankee Doodle Doofus Bronze badge

          Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

          I think "retroactive" is actually a better word for how I interpreted their comment.

        2. Terry 6 Silver badge

          Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

          I did read that post as meaning "retrospective" in as much as the tax reductions were withdrawn for all vehicles, not just subsequent purchases.

      2. theOtherJT Silver badge

        Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

        That's not how car tax works. I think you are remembering that incorrectly.

        If the car is X reg or lower it's still on the old 1549cc and below or 1550cc and above two tier system. It changed to the CO2 based system in march 2001, and then they changed the bands on that system in march 2006 before changing it entirely in 2017 so that you payed relative to CO2 emissions for the first year, and then a static cost in the second year plus a "Big expensive car" add on that you have to pay for the first 5 years.

        1. Mast1

          Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

          Yes, apologies, slightly mis-remembered, because it was a 2002 car bought by me before 2006. But the point still stands. The car was end of line in 2002, so effectively being punished for design decisions taken long before the tax was mooted (at least publicly) (hence also my use of the word "retrospective" rather than "regressive, which it also was). As the OP points out with the dates, moving the goalposts again while the car still had useful life. And the obsession with concentrating on CO2 to drive design decisions lead to the favouring of diesel ICE, and look where that took us. At the time we were well aware of the risks with PM2.5 emissions.

          1. theOtherJT Silver badge

            Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

            Don't get me wrong, I think the tax rules for VED are insane. They have done such weird things to the used car market precisely because they're not backdated. Two absolutely identical vehicles off the same production line can have 300 quid of tax difference bet6them because one was registered in 05 and the other In 06. It's mental that tis is what they chose to do.

            1. hoola Silver badge

              Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

              We have exactly this:

              Son - 2012 VW Up! £20

              Daughter 2016 VW Up! £20

              Wife - 2019 VW Up! £168 (or whatever it is).

              Same car, same engine........

    2. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

      Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

      Don't forget insurance: one of my cars is a ford mondeo estate, deisel. Current insurance for business use/20,000 miles/on road parking: £400.

      Equiv EV: MG 5 estat, 2nd hand cost: £12,000 roughly the same as the mondeo. insurance for the same level: business use/20,000 miles/on road parking: £2,500

    3. John Robson Silver badge

      Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

      There are several things that could, and should, be done to bring charging costs down for those who can't charge at home.

      BUT - a significant majority can (RAC research)

      And there are other places to charge... Work, supermarket, literally any car park in fact.

      And DC charging should *not* be the norm. and pricing for AC charging should *not* be at business rates +VAT.

      The home charger doesn't actually *need* to be more than a standard socket, though obviously you can get more electrons in each night if you have more - but even at 2.4kW (10A, which is well within a 13A socket) you are adding ~10 miles an hour, and since the average daily milage is 20 miles... you actually only need ~2 hours a day... call it 3 to give a good margin.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

        "There are several things that could, and should, be done to bring charging costs down for those who can't charge at home."

        Do you always worry about picking the fruit on the top of the tree?

        Those that can't charge at home are going to experience yet another disadvantage to leasing a home with no off-street parking. I'm not a fan of high density big cities so I'd rather see some encouragement for building less dense which could also mean parking for at least one car per residence. There are ways to add charging, but one of the big problems I see reported more frequently is wire theft. One story I read today told of a city deleting signals at an intersection and substituting stop signs due to the constant theft of the wiring. Never mind that the immediate area has a big problem with homeless people encamped on any patch they can find.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

          It's a good argument for building MORE dense. If you're in a dense city, you don't need a car at all, you can take the FAR more efficient subway train.

          Wiring theft from traffic lights is a non-issue in most of the world. If traffic was so light that the wiring was being stolen and the lights could be replaced with stop signs, the intersection shouldn't have had a light anyway.

          And homelessness can be solved pretty easily. It's called "providing housing". There's ZERO excuse for any developed country to have a single homeless person. If the city can't afford it, the local income tax is almost certainly too low and not sufficiently progressive - which IS a major problem in much of the developed world, the rich aren't taxed nearly enough.

          1. Spazturtle Silver badge

            Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

            " There's ZERO excuse for any developed country to have a single homeless person."

            The majority of homeless people have suffered a traumatic brain injury before becoming homeless, many others have serious mental health issues.

            I'm not sure if you have every worked with them buy you can put them in a flat, have social workers do their shopping and cleaning for them and then 6 months down the line they are back on the street because they can't cope with and process living in a flat.

            Suggesting that building more houses will solve homelessness is neither accurate or helpful and only serves to distract from and diminish the immense medical research and rehabilitation work that needs to happen to reduce homelessness.

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

              "" There's ZERO excuse for any developed country to have a single homeless person.""

              Soylent Green/fertilizer ? That's a bit harsh, but the statement can be interpreted that way by people with a certain turn of mind.

            2. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

              "Suggesting that building more houses will solve homelessness is neither accurate or helpful"

              It's also next to impossible to "build" low-income housing. The city of Los Angeles built some apartments to warehouse homeless people at $600,000ea. I can't recall if that was the cost of the units or the cost plus what they paid to the 'consultants'.

    4. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

      "It is of course much cheaper for the lucky ones with off-street parking and a home charger.

      It's expensive to be poor.The Vimes' Boots Theory raises its head again"

      Lucky? Luck is the residue of good preparation.

      I would never lease a flat in a multi-tenant building ever again. Two big days in my life are when I signed the papers to buy a home and when I (figuratively) signed the last payment check.

      I get offers from headhunters all of the time to take work in a bigger city and when I look at the cost of living numbers, I'd be right back on the treadmill of "own nothing and be happy". The biggest joke on somebody that can't do math is when I'm being recruited by a company in Silicon Valley. The salaries can be impressive, but I'd have less left at the end of the month after expenses. I can't afford a million dollar home (starter class in the area) so I'd have to rent which can be just shy of $50,000/yr in post tax money. That impressive gross salary also means a boost up into much higher tax brackets. California is bad enough without being classed as a high-earner.

      Yes, save up for the more expensive and higher quality boots or you will spend your life being able to easily read the quality of the paving/cobbles.

      1. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

        "Lucky? Luck is the residue of good preparation."

        No - preparation is but one thing which can influence luck.

        If you can save up for better boots then you are already in the position of being relatively wealthy.

        1. Terry 6 Silver badge

          Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

          You can't prepare for having poor ( financially) parents. Or having the vocation to be a nurse/teacher/etc. Or having grown up in an inner city with a social network that mean everything to you also living there.

      2. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: No doubt cost and lack of charging infrastructure are central...

        You get the choice- that's lucky.

  5. navarac Silver badge

    New

    Just (last week) took delivery of a new ICE car. It was noticeable that once I said at the outset that I was not interested in an EV, they weren't mentioned again during the process of buying it.

    My reasons for an ICE were: EV's far more expensive, lack of public chargers, cost of fitment of home charger, and most of all, lack of range compared to the 450 mile range of the petrol tank. Oh, and the length of time to "refill" the damn battery. That's all apart from not knowing the "life" of a battery, and its cost of possible replacement. As for the EV Car Tax, that will go up to current ICE levels, much like unleaded did once 4-star became less common.

    1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

      Re: New

      "As for the EV Car Tax, that will go up to current ICE levels"

      gov.uk: "Electric and low emission cars registered on or after 1 April 2025

      You will need to pay the lowest first year rate of vehicle tax (which applies to vehicles with CO2 emissions 1 to 50g/km). From the second tax payment onwards, these vehicles will pay the standard rate. This is £190 for 2024 but is subject to change for 2025."

      Already been on the books.

    2. TonRotterdam

      Re: New

      Some of your arguments may very well be true on this day in the UK, but all of them have completely been erased in the past 3 years in the Netherlands. Sure, sometimes you'll have to drive to the next corner to put your car on a charger at a destination but in my experience this is improving daily.

      And the wait time to refill the battery? I'm not sure about you, but I don't stand next to the dishwasher for it to finish, I get on with my day when the car is charging.

      1. Ian Johnston Silver badge

        Re: New

        On the other hand, you are living in a dead flat country where changing into fifth gear is likely to see you crossing the border. You also have extremely good public transport, albeit with the most hostile ticketing system imaginable for visitors.

        1. DoctorPaul Bronze badge

          Re: New

          Really? In the last year or two I've made a few trips to rock gigs in the Netherlands and it's been an absolute breeze. Buying train tickets on the NL website is straightforward and on buses you just click in and out with any UK debit or credit card.

    3. John Robson Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: New

      - EV's far more expensive

      They're a little more expensive, but not all that much if you look at TCO (even over just one year)

      - Lack of public chargers

      Not been an issue for a while, sure we could always use more, but where do you think there aren't enough?

      - Cost of fitment of home charger

      Then use a three pin plug, or you know, look at that TCO again.

      - Lack of range compared to the 450 mile range of the petrol tank

      How often do you do more than that range in a day?

      - Length of time to "refill" the damn battery

      Well I've just done 300 miles on a long weekend for a wedding, with effectively zero time required for charging.

      I charged before I left (took maybe two additional seconds last time I parked at home), and it took me another second to plug in when I got home.

      What will really drive you crazy is that the battery isn't even full at the moment, I only half charged it the night I returned, I'll do the other half tonight, and then on Thursday I'll do another 300 miles, without ever having to make a special journey (or part journey) to a smelly refuelling station, or spending several minutes standing to refuel.

      So that's two seperate three hundred mile journeys in a week with no time spent charging.

      1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

        Re: New

        - EV's far more expensive

        They're a little more expensive, but not all that much if you look at TCO (even over just one year)

        My insurance for my car is £400, the equiv ev is £2,500. that's a lot to make up.

        Charging for me would be at 79p/kWh, making my weekly mileage around £120, compared to £70 of diesel.

        So, £2,100 extra a year, plus £50 a week more.. where's this "little more expensive"?

        - Cost of fitment of home charger

        Then use a three pin plug, or you know, look at that TCO again.

        And get sued when someone trips over the cable you have running into the road to get to the car. No everyone has off road parking.

        - Lack of range compared to the 450 mile range of the petrol tank

        How often do you do more than that range in a day?

        I never do more than 598 miles in a day. Luckerly the Q30 has a range of 700 miles on a 50 litre tank.

        - Length of time to "refill" the damn battery

        Well I've just done 300 miles on a long weekend for a wedding, with effectively zero time required for charging.

        I charged before I left (took maybe two additional seconds last time I parked at home), and it took me another second to plug in when I got home.

        Remove the ability to charge at home, and see how much that changes for you?

        What will really drive you crazy is that the battery isn't even full at the moment, I only half charged it the night I returned, I'll do the other half tonight, and then on Thursday I'll do another 300 miles, without ever having to make a special journey (or part journey) to a smelly refuelling station, or spending several minutes standing to refuel.

        Funnily, the chargers I'd have to use are in those smelly refuelling stations, so not only do you get to go to "Smelly refuelling stations", you get to sit there for half an hour instead of 5 mins.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: New

          "Charging for me would be at 79p/kWh,"

          Then you're an idiot...

          There is no reason ever to rely on such expensive charging

      2. Ian Johnston Silver badge

        Re: New

        How often do you do more than that range in a day?

        How often do you have more than one two people in your car? How many seats does it have?

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: New

          Most of the time when it's driven - family of four, five seats.

          The fifth seat is a given when you have a vehicle large enough to put a wheelchair in the back...

          But when i need six people... I can't just pay a little extra on that one journey, which you easily can on a longer EV journey. That one charge stop will cost a little more for the last part of the journey, but the overall journey will still be substantially cheaper.

      3. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: New

        "So that's two seperate three hundred mile journeys in a week with no time spent charging."

        At the end of the month I am going to see a band play the final tour ever about 800 miles away. If I had an EV, it would be more planning to get there and back, but I'm not driving the distance either. I'm going 100 miles away to a train station that has secure parking. There's one much closer and in a better direction to catch the same train, but the car would be gone if left overnight despite being across the street from a police facility. $106 in coach tickets vs $200-$250 in petrol, overnight travel while I sleep so I am cutting the trip down to 3 days even though the train takes 4 more hours in each direction. An EV capable of really fast charging would take something between the time to drive a petrol car and the train with charging stops and even in the US, there are enough chargers along the way in convenient places to travel with an EV. I could also fly, but as a domestic terrorist according to some three-letter agency that "doesn't have a list, promise", it's annoying to say the least and would take up a whole day in travel each way. (time to get to airport 2hr in advance, flight, retrieval of baggage, from airport to hotel and the reverse).

        Many of the long trips I might do can be made without driving all day or multiple days so an EV taking more time for charging (stops don't fall at meal times), can be mitigated. I'm hoping the expansion and upgrades of Amtrak in the US actually are made. The teasers thus far are awesome and carve away the obvious "all roads go to Chicago even if you don't want to go anywhere near the place" layout.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: New

          Train is far better than a car if they are actually going in the right direction and aren't stupidly priced...

          The journey I took this week cost ~£12 (return) for the four of us, luggage etc, and took a little under 6 hours each way

          By train it would have been over £300 (even with the group discount) and booking well in advance doesn't seem to get that down with two changes, taking about 7 hours each way

          Of course an EV to the train station is also an option - that's well within the return range of many EVs - and I'd strongly advocate for station car parks to have wall to wall slow chargers installed, because you're going to be there for 8+ hours usually...

    4. VicMortimer Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: New

      You know what the REAL charging time for every EV is?

      ABOUT 2 SECONDS.

      That's about what it takes me to grab the charger and plug it in as I'm walking into the house. It's not a damn gas pump where you have to stand there in the cold or heat beside the car as it slowly fills. You plug it in and walk away, you're done.

      Now, I've got a PHEV, because reasonably priced decent BEVs didn't exist when I got it. But that at least means that unless I'm on a road trip I almost never have to go to a gas station. And when I am on a road trip, I'm reminded of why I will NEVER own another ICE car. Road trip with a BEV = you plug in and walk away to do something like eat or goof off indoors for a while - or even just hang out in the air conditioned car and take a nap. Charging STILL only takes a few seconds out of your day, because you can do something else.

      The "life" of the battery is a non-issue. My car is now 11 years old, the high voltage battery is FINE. I did have to replace the 12V battery once, but those don't last as long on ICE cars either, because those have to start an engine, mine just has to flip a HV disconnector. I just hit 150k miles this year, service costs have been significantly less than any other car I've ever had, mostly tires, a few oil changes and an evap emissions valve because it's still got an ICE.

      Oh, and the cost of the home charger? For the first few years I had the car, I just used the 120V charger that came with it. Then the local utility board ran a rebate deal, so I got a 40A 240V charger for free.

      1. Yankee Doodle Doofus Bronze badge

        Re: New

        < "You know what the REAL charging time for every EV is? ... ABOUT 2 SECONDS."

        Only if every EV is owned and operated by someone who can charge at home. Why do so many commenters seem to be unable to fathom the idea that not every person is in the same situation they are?

        "Let them eat cake."

        1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

          Re: New

          Didn't you know? People don't live in houses with off road parking aren't meant to drive.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: New

            "Didn't you know? People don't live in houses with off road parking aren't meant to drive."

            Apart from some questionable sentence structure, yes. If you choose to live someplace without off-street parking, perhaps owning a car isn't a good idea.

            1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

              Re: New

              "move house to one you can't afford to meet the demands of your car" has to be the stupidest idea ever.

              1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                Re: New

                ""move house to one you can't afford to meet the demands of your car" has to be the stupidest idea ever."

                I've been known to say that when whiners get going, but if you don't have a place to charge an EV, DON'T GET ONE. If you live in a multi-story with underground parking, don't buy a jacked up full sized pick up or a van that's too tall to fit. If there isn't any parking at all, don't get a car. If you just must have a car, you might have to move. If you rent and want a big dog, you might have to move to someplace that will allow you to have a big dog or any sort of pet at all. The list goes on. Way back, I had to rent rehearsal studio space to practice drums. When I added up the rent I was paying and the cost of the rehearsal space, it made sense to move to a house (and add another roommate (gack)) where I could soundproof some space which was far more convenient. So, in essence, I moved to meet the demands of playing drums (as a side gig).

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: New

            Correct!

            The US is cursed with nightmarish sprawl, but in saner parts of the world you don't need a car if you live in a city.

            (The UK is not included in "saner" - the fools privatized the railroad, pulled up a bunch of track, cut service, and jacked up prices. And they park on the fucking sidewalk, at least half the cars in that country shouldn't exist.)

        2. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: New

          You’re assuming home is the only option for charging.

          Workplaces, supermarkets, train stations, there are no end of places which should have banks of AC chargers.

          20miles a day at 7kW is ~45 minutes of charging needed.

          And all of these places are places where you would go anyway…

          1. Yankee Doodle Doofus Bronze badge

            Re: New

            "there are no end of places which should have banks of AC chargers"

            The word "should" is doing some heavy lifting there. You replied to my comment about people assuming everyone is in the same boat with another example of the same. Brilliant...

            In my case, the nearest place I have seen a public bank of chargers is about 100 miles from my house, at a service area on a turnpike. There may be some nearer, but zero workplaces and supermarkets have them in my community. Even if the supermarket did have chargers. I'm usually in and out of the store in 15 minutes, so in your described scenario, I would be twiddling my thumbs for 30 minutes waiting for the charging to complete.

            1. John Robson Silver badge

              Re: New

              No - I am saying that the current obsession with only having DC public chargers is idiotic (at least the AC ones aren't nearly as common, or as cheap, as they should be).

              And that we should be encouraging more sensible

              I'm talking about planning properly for the future - built a public building recently and as part of that ran some decent cable across the car park.

              No chargers are yet installed, but one will be this year, and we have power and space for a significant number to add on (can install them basically all along the longest edge).

              If Tesla* can provide energy at 41p/kWh (inc VAT), through a DC charger that will supply 250kW... why the hell do some of my local AC points cost more (despite not even having reserved parking).

              It makes no sense - it's a card reader and some simple car communication (which could be done with a pi pico) controlling a relay, and that relay just connects all three poles (5 if you're fancy and can handle 11/22kW) to the socket.

              At 41p/kWh that's only a fraction over half the cost of petrol... and that's the headline rate at many Tesla stations for much of the day.

              Ionity do 35p/kWh, but you do have to add a £200 a year membership. About half the price of diesel for my typical usage (which is a bit above average: 12k for a one car household)

              Tesla membership rates can bring it down to ~25p, for a £90 annual fee. That would be a third of the price of diesel.

              So if you need to rely on public charging, you don't pay the headline visitor rate that you see on instavolt or gridserve chargers.

              Indeed if you're fortunate you might even find some free units around - Last time I was down in London I charged for basically no more than parking would have cost anyway.

          2. Terry 6 Silver badge

            Re: New

            That only works where the supermarket etc haven't got greedy and charge more for electricity than petrol.

            1. John Robson Silver badge

              Re: New

              Yes - but as they do have a tendency to compete with each other, I'm optimistic that we'll see more reasonable rates around.

              As I posted a little above it's pretty easy (at least across the south of the country) to get charging down to 25p from public chargers - local conditions might mean it's a little more or less.

              Given the ability to attract customers to an existing business... it's surely not beyond the wit of the supermarkets to notice that if I'm going to spend half an hour at a shop it may as well be theirs.

    5. Evil Scot Bronze badge

      Re: New

      Modern EVs have three or four hours driving range and can get get to 80% in half an hour.

      During which you can

      Queue to get served a coffee

      Drink the coffee

      Micturate said coffee

      Or you can expose your orchids to frost damage for an extra 5 minutes beforehand.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: New

        "Modern EVs have three or four hours driving range and can get get to 80% in half an hour."

        Driving time/range between "coffee" breaks to me is the center of the target. When I make long trips, my stops for all things coffee, washing the windscreen, filling up with petrol and other small chores is 20 minutes. If I'm having a meal, it's 45 minutes. If I start at 100% in an EV, around lunch it's time to charge if I hadn't needed to stop sooner to dispose of some used coffee. Charge to 80% and I could drive from the lunch break until tea. Charge up again and I should have plenty to get me through until dinner. In my planning now I don't go past a 12 hour travel day including stops. I can leave at 6am with the plan to be wherever I'll be stopping by 6p. That leaves extra time for slow traffic, the odd stop or additional pee break without winding up at the stopping point in the late hours when shops can be closed. Many places in the US that are off the Interstate highways will roll up the sidewalks come dark and that includes petrol stations. If you are used to city living, that can be a big eye-opener when you thought to just wing-it and find that shops are dark and there's nobody about. EV charging should be 24/7 and motels will often have somebody available, but amenities might be absent.

  6. Nematode Bronze badge

    And don't forget the CO2 breakpoint for a new EV. The extra CO2 emitted by the manufacturing process (viz. the battery) is a lot higher than an ICE vehicle, and depending on size of car, source of leccy, etc., it takes roughly a minimum of 30,000 miles, some say 50,000 or more, to offset the extra manufacturing CO2 during use, meaning you're not actually saving CO2 in the first 2 to 5 years of use.

    This is also why hybrid is sensible, the smaller batteries don't cost as much CO2 (or ££) and are adequate for many local trips, plus you have range in the ICE tank when needed. It's why the hybrid sales are up in spite of the impending ban.

    I only wonder how and when governments will row back on the unrealistic targets they've set which have NO chance of making it into the real world.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      In terms of environmental friendliness, hybrids are probably the worst of all worlds: the car has to have both batteries and an ICE drivetrain but the batteries are piddling and their range correspondingly tiny. And if that's all you need, great but why not just have a small EV?

      Drive them as normal vehicles and you're going to have to pay to move all that extra weight, which is what most of the journeys are. But, with some creative environmental accounting, you can pretend people use the batteries much more than they do, which is just what companies with government incentives are doing.

      1. munnoch Silver badge

        Hybrids greatly simplify the ICE side of things. Mine doesn't even have a *gearbox* in the sense of a way to vary the ratio between engine and road, its just a single fixed ratio and the engine only directly drives the wheels above 40mph (and then only when there isn't enough stored charge). The 12V electrical system is pared down to the minimum needed to boot up the ECU's, no alternator, no starter, tiny aux battery. And you also don't need a dedicated high powered charger since the battery is relatively modest and can fully charge in under 4 hours from a 13A plug, avoiding the ass-fucking your wallet takes to have a man come round and nail one onto the side of your garage.

        Since I got it about half of my miles are fueled from the plug (I do religiously plug it in after use and its on a timer to charge *overnight*) and my petrol usage is about a third of what it was. I can do all the short range journeys to the shops etc wholly on electric or with very minimal petrol usage and I still have the option to go from one end of the country to the other practically non-stop should I need to.

        Everyone's pattern of use is a bit different but I believe for many this *is* the sweet spot at this point in the adoption cycle. If everyone could reduce their fossil fuel usage by 2/3's whilst not requiring a fully built-out and economical public charging infrastructure then we'd be well on our way.

        1. Mast1

          Agreed with you, especially "If everyone could reduce their fossil fuel usage by 2/3's whilst not requiring a fully built-out and economical public charging infrastructure then we'd be well on our way.".

          But that sensible approach hits HMRC in the pocket (and already has). Watch out for the creative replacement revenue stream.

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          "avoiding the ass-fucking your wallet takes to have a man come round and nail one onto the side of your garage."

          Colourful.

          You may have wanted to shop around if this is coming from experience. I will happily do my own wiring, but if you are someplace where you have had the fear of <insert deity of choice> put into you even if you do know something about wiring, you could still do a fair bit of the time/labor intensive work so the electchicken isn't being paid to drill holes and shovel trenches.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          It took me a couple of hours to install a NEMA 14-50 outlet in a weatherproof box on the side of my house. Would have been quicker, but I was using a shitty drill bit to put a hole in the side of the main electrical panel, and I was going more slowly because I was wiring the panel hot, I didn't want to drop power to the house, and I know how to do it. Most people should probably cut the power. Still wasn't hard, easy DIY for just about anybody if you cut power to the panel.

          I wanted an outlet because I didn't want to hard wire the free 40A EVSE I got from the power utility in case I sell the house and want to take it with me.

          Assfuck level = 0

          Most days I use no gas.

      2. blackcat Silver badge

        Depends on the hybrid. A good hybrid has a smaller than normal ICE engine and uses the motor for extra grunt when needed. You can cruise on the small ICE and silly MPG but still have good acceleration and use the motor for regen braking to charge the battery.

        The overly complex hybrids and PHEVs have an electric only mode so you need a battery and motor that is capable of accelerating and powering the vehicle all on its own AND you need a bigger ICE to keep good performance when the battery has run down due to running in all electric mode.

        1. munnoch Silver badge

          You don't need two systems capable of providing full power because the battery is rarely run down to the point that it can't assist. Unless you demand full power for an inordinately long amount of time e.g. towing a caravan up the Alps, then its not a problem.

          The Outlander PHEV is limited to 70kW in pure EV mode because thats all the battery can supply, this is a fairly modest output in this day and age. The generator can supply another 80kW or so but obviously that needs the ICE to be running, so in so-called serial hybrid mode you get up to 150kW but for an amount of time dependent on how charged the battery is. In parallel hybrid mode you get up to 95kW from the ICE directly coupled to the front wheels (plenty for motorway cruising), and any excess power is bled off through the generator to top off the battery. So both EV and ICE systems are under-sized.

        2. werdsmith Silver badge

          The hybrids use the Atkinson cycle engine. More efficient but don't have the right torque profile for driving. That's no problem though, because the electric motors provide the torque, hence why hybrids are so zippy up to about 25/30 mph. Then that battery makes a nice little storage for energy that would otherwise be wasted. Like heat from the brakes that would be dumped into the airflow.

    2. John Robson Silver badge

      30-50k might be true for the Hummer monstrosity - but it's closer to 15k for normal vehicles.

    3. VicMortimer Silver badge

      The numbers you claim are pure nonsense.

      Yes, it depends on electricity source, obviously coal is worse than hydro or solar. But if you live someplace with 100% renewable power the minimum is closer to 9,000 miles to break even on production CO2. With a typical mix, it's closer to 19,000 miles, you're not going to get near 30,000 unless you happen to live somewhere that does nothing but burn coal for electricity.

      And production CO2 will go down over time as mining and refining move from fossil fuel to electricity.

      In any case, there's nothing unrealistic about banning new ICE car sales in 2035. It just means manufacturers that haven't switched by then will go out of business because they don't have anything to sell. So they'd better get on it now.

      1. stiine Silver badge

        Only if its an earthen dam. If its wind, your calcuations are low; if a concrete damn, your calculations are bordering on fantasy.

    4. stiine Silver badge

      Some say 140k miles or more.

      1. John Robson Silver badge

        And they’d clearly talking complete bollocks.

        Maybe I should say it’s negative 100k miles… then “some people say it’s before they’re built”

  7. mili

    HEVs are an abomination

    According to recent statistics most HEV driver do not charge their batteries. Mostly, because it is inconvenient or would require more planning and effort to use available charging infrastructure and since they make sure that fuel is in the tank there are no consequences. Instead people simply drive heavier cars than necessary, which adds more to the carbon footprint than if they simply had bought a pure combustion engine. What a world! We definitely have conflicting goals here: it's the earth against humans - I wonder who is going to win ...

    1. theOtherJT Silver badge

      Re: HEVs are an abomination

      Eh... yes and no.

      Massive hybrid SUV's (which does seem to be most things these days, to be sure) are a nightmare in every case. If you do a lot of urban driving tho, small hybrid cars like the Yaris make a certain amount of sense. They' really just leveraging that electric assist to keep the engine spinning in that economy RPM sweet spot so it's not being stressed doing constant idle->power band changes. The second you take them on a long drive the benefit disappears, but not everyone actually does that. Hybrids can work to improve fuel economy, but most of them don't because they weren't designed to. They were designed to sell into specific tax bands.

    2. VicMortimer Silver badge

      Re: HEVs are an abomination

      I don't understand that at all. I step out of the car, grab the cable, plug in, and go inside. No planning, 2 seconds of effort, and most days I don't use any gas. My PHEV weighs about 250 pounds more than the non-plug-in hybrid model of the same car, it was a no-brainer to get the PHEV.

      Either model is going to have a lower CO2 footprint than a pure ICE car, even if you're an idiot that can't be bothered to plug in the PHEV. Easily determined in the case of my car, because while the US models are hybrid only, there's a European ICE model. And even the smallest ICE available for it there (a crappy little 1 liter engine) has worse CO2 emissions than my PHEV with a 2 liter engine driven on gas only would.

      1. Ian Johnston Silver badge

        Re: HEVs are an abomination

        I don't understand that at all. I step out of the car, grab the cable, plug in, and go inside.

        I live in a flat in Edinburgh. Please explain how that would work for me.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: HEVs are an abomination

          "I live in a flat in Edinburgh. Please explain how that would work for me."

          Step one: Move out of your flat with no off-street parking

          Step two: ?

          Step three: Profit!

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: HEVs are an abomination

          "I live in a flat in Edinburgh. Please explain how that would work for me."

          Step one: Sell your car

          Step two: ? Use public transit

          Step three: Profit!

        3. James Hughes 1

          Re: HEVs are an abomination

          I don't live in a flat in Edinburg, and have offstreet parking. Works fine for me.

          Which has just as much relevance as your post.

          It's pretty simple, if an EV/HEV doesn't suit you, don't buy it. But don't tar everyone with the same brush. Not everyone can afford a flat in Edinburgh;-)

      2. Adair Silver badge

        Re: HEVs are an abomination

        There is this glorious self-absorbed consumerist assumption that we all have a right to have everything we want, when we want it, all the time. This is complemented by a gnawing rage and frustration that reality doesn't seem to fulfil this assumption.

        Almost everything we do demands a sacrifice: in order to have/do one thing we have to let something else go, if not forever then at least for a while.

        Part of growing up is about learning to work with this reality instead of whining about how unfair it all is.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: HEVs are an abomination

          When my daughter was horse crazy, we had to pay a fortune to a livery yard to stable and graze her horse. This is very unfair because some people have stables and paddocks right in their own back yard.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: HEVs are an abomination

            "When my daughter was horse crazy, we had to pay a fortune to a livery yard to stable and graze her horse."

            Around me, there is a minimum lot size required to be able to stable horses on your own property if the lots are also zoned for large animals/ag. I'm sure lots of small girls find it so unfair that they can't keep a pony in the backyard.

  8. Bebu
    Windows

    Long tail

    I had a look at the UK figures on the SMMT site linked in this article as I was curious about the non new purchases and registrations.

    The new registrations roughly July'23/June'24 1,154,000 cf 7,243,000 used car sales.

    Any decent vehicle produced in the last few decades has at least a twenty year life* expectancy so the pool of existing ICE vehicles would take more than a decade to wear out.

    Presumably the rising cost of running and maintenance of these vehicles will mean a much shorter economical life but still the rather high cost of ICE alternatives will likely have the consequence of ICE owners absorbing the higher running costs for longer.

    Older ICE owners within sight of having to surrender their drivers licenses are unlikely to purchase a new vehicle of any sort.

    I have a vague suspicion that ultimately none of current BEV, hybrid, hydrogen, ICE will prevail. Perhaps biofuel external combustion? (New steam age.:)

    * unlike Australia I cannot imagine mileage being that large in the UK. How many times would you have to drive from Lands End to John O'Groats and back to equal Sydney, NSW to Perth, WA?

    1. Max Pyat

      Re: Long tail

      Having just retired a 20 yr old Audi A6 with 200k miles, I think "at least 20yrs" is an optimistic lifespan.

      A lot of cars encounter corrosion before/around then that is uneconomic to repair. Plastics get brittle over time due to VOC loss and UV and temperature and chemical exposure. Things that used to clip on/off just break off, seals stop sealing, etc

      Electricals also can start to present issues. That's what finally killed my Audi, and a slightly younger SEAT I had in family a few years before. Plus some corrosion.

      It's sort of like human lifespan. As the car gets older, in principle theres no reason for it not to just continue running year to year. But the older it gets the more likely any given problem or mishap is to be terminal, plus these issues tend to accumulate

      1. munnoch Silver badge

        Re: Long tail

        I read that the average age that a car is scrapped at in the UK is 12 years. I retired an 18 yo Mitsubishi to buy my PHEV but not many people have the inclination or ability to eke a car out that far.

        Only 80k miles but first the front subframe rusted through causing complete loss of control (thankfully at 20mph, not the 70mph I'd been doing seconds earlier). The MOT tester didn't even notice the impending doom 3 months previously. Replaced with a non-rusty subframe off of ebay but it was a mare of a job.

        Then the shoes for the parking brake disintegrated causing one rear wheel to lock up, also thankfully not in heavy traffic because it stopped very, very abruptly (took off the wheel and stripped the remains out with the traffic police protecting my rear then drove it home).

        It could have lived on with a few hundred pounds spent on it but I figured that after it trying to kill me twice the odds were shortening too much.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Long tail

          It's going up - it's about 16 years now.

          But scrappage isn't the only way they get taken out of circulation.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Long tail

          The average age of a car on the road in the US is 12.6 years. That's not the age they're scrapped, that's on the road.

          I see 40+ year old cars driving around town on a fairly regular basis, the vast majority of cars make it to at least 20 here.

          That's why I'd really like to see a ban on new ICE car sales here sooner than 2035, with replacement cycles here it'll take over a decade for a majority of cars on the road to be EVs.

          I can't imagine a car getting scrapped because of a parking brake. Anything with a running engine is worth at least a couple thousand dollars, scrap is for rusted out hulks with dead motors or total collision losses.

          1. John Robson Silver badge

            Re: Long tail

            "Anything with a running engine is worth at least a couple thousand dollars"

            I wonder if you live somewhere particularly kind to engines... a running engine might get you a hundred or so, but it's not going to make a banger suddenly worth multiple thousands.

      2. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: Long tail

        Add to that the artificially induced eol. Parts that may cost peanuts to manufacture, but are a small fortune to buy. And increasingly complex, so expensive, repairs, with small items that would be easy to replace situated somewhere so inaccessible it adds hours to the labour costs.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Long tail

      "Perhaps biofuel external combustion?"

      Er, no. Biofuels are only the answer if they are created from a stream of waste material. (e.g. methane (poo) powered buses, or biofuels made from waste from food processing.) If we want to power our vehicles using fuel from specially grown crops and carry on with the current level of fuel usage per person, we would have to convert huge tracts of land (e.g. rainforest) into farmland or significantly reduce global population levels.

      And whilst I love steam engines, external combustion for the masses is just not practical, or efficient.

      1. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

        Re: Long tail

        'Ere don't be bringin' Princess lucky and her huge tracts of land into the discussion.

        Or perhaps you live in a swamp...

    3. gryphon

      Re: Long tail

      A lot of diesels are having to be scrapped early or offloaded for very low values due to the Ultra and Low Emission Zones springing up all over the place which doesn't help.

      Diesel's that do fair amounts of mileage are barely broken in at 100K miles.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Long tail

        It’s nice not living in or near a ULEZ, makes secondhand diesel more attractive…

        However, none of my vehicles have achieved 20 years, all have been scrapped after 14~16 years due to wear and tear and costs to repair exceed the cost of purchasing a significantly younger vehicle.

    4. nematoad Silver badge

      Re: Long tail

      "I cannot imagine mileage being that large in the UK."

      Don't be so sure.

      I once, foolishly, drove from Thurso in the north of Scotland to Ennis, Clare on the west coast of Ireland in one hit. Apart from four hours rest on the ferry it was a straight 20 hour slog. Wiped me out completely and I had to work the next day. Never again.

      Don't forget that all roads are not equal and twisty rural roads add time to any journey.

      Edit to say that I just checked and the shortest route is 641 miles.

    5. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Long tail

      "Sydney, NSW to Perth, WA"

      That's a train trip I'd love to take. Buying lottery ticket this evening. Drive? No, yeah, no.

  9. 0laf Silver badge
    Childcatcher

    The compromises required to switch to electric are a just too much for many people.

    The cost is very high to switch. EVs are expensive and if you are someone who generally buys older cars because they are cheap you're unlikely to get an older EV with usable mileage. A 10yr old well maintained ICE car will likely still do 100% of it's mileage per tank as new (might even be higher). A 10yr old EV will not do that (with current tech).

    If you can't charge at home then life is going to be tricky since you can't just pop out to the charging station and be back in 10min

    EVs are filled with the worst of current trends which are likely to lead to obsolecense, i.e. app controlled elements of the car.

    If you are actually considering a newish EV then the current scare stories around depeciation will factor into people's thoughts.

    And finally if you are a petrol head then EVs might just leave you cold.

    I'm not against EVs per se but I think they are being pushed too hard too soon and we lack infractucture for a wide adoption and the tech itself (particularly battery tech) is immature. I'm sure these issues will be resolved but likely not for a decade. Also for me the tech leaves me cold. I grew up loving the sound of big block American V8s, Ferrari flat 12s and screaming straight 4s, EVs leave me cold. I'm sure they are very very fast with alll the torque, but I like the oily bits as well.

    1. theOtherJT Silver badge

      I'm sure they are very very fast with alll the torque...

      ...sort of? Some of them anyway.

      I got to borrow a mates polestar the other day - the dual motor with all the toys one - so it has no excuse to feel slow, and for sure it accelerates hard but that's about it. It isn't actually fast because it's got a hard-limiter on the top speed to stop you from cooking the batteries. It also doesn't feel good to drive fast even should you get the opportunity because it's so heavy and tall compared to a normal car (And I hate to think what all the really big electric crossover things are like - the polestar is relatively mild compared to most!) that you show it a set of corners and it does not like it. You can feel that the chassis, brakes, and steering rack would really rather you didn't treat me like this thankyouverymuch.

    2. John Robson Silver badge

      Battery life is well understood and well reported by the BMS - so far more predictable than an ICE of questionable historical maintenance (or even perfect maintenance)

      All cars are filled with current obsolescence trends, but unlike with an ICE the battery and systems will still have significant value.

      EVs are far nicer vehicles to drive, none of the compromises associated with an engine that can't even start from a standstill...

      1. theOtherJT Silver badge

        I get that "nicer" is subjective but I cannot imagine a mindset that thinks that. EVs are horrible to drive. Knumb, detached, heavy... Maybe something like a Porsche taycan or an Audi etron (neither of which I've had the good fortune to try) but as a driver I'd take my 25 year old BMW over any I have tried.

        1. James Hughes 1

          Horses for courses

          Buy an EV for commuting, but a 7 or track car for fun. Simple. My EV is mentally quick, but a bit heavy, but really is good for commuting, just the fairly rigid sports suspension makes it a bit hard on the shitty roads in the Fens.

          1. theOtherJT Silver badge

            Re: Horses for courses

            That sounds nice, but it does presuppose I have space for and can afford to own two cars.

        2. John Robson Silver badge

          "EVs are horrible to drive. Knumb, detached, heavy"

          Not at all. They're tools for getting around, and do that job with the minimum of effort, noise, vibration etc.

          They're no more or less detached than any other vehicle type - You could reasonably say the above about cars when compared with motorbikes.

    3. MachDiamond Silver badge

      "EVs are filled with the worst of current trends which are likely to lead to obsolecense, i.e. app controlled elements of the car."

      That's a lot more to do with what car companies are doing to the cars than the drive train itself. I agree with the sentiment and question the statements from the companies that claim "it's what customers are demanding". I have a feeling that a pretty large tract of land could be fertilized with that statement.

      1. VicMortimer Silver badge

        Yep.

        That's not an EV problem, that's a rent-seeking capitalism problem.

        They're not just doing it to EVs, they're doing it to all new cars.

  10. Potemkine! Silver badge

    Carbon Neutrality? It depends on how electricity is produced. Not even talking about the carbon generated by building new cars to replace existing and functioning ones.

    1. John Robson Silver badge
      FAIL

      It doesn't - even driving on coal powered electricity...

      But don't let facts get in the way of complaining.

      Coal is about 820g/kWh(e), Oil is ~600, Gas ~500, PV ~50, Hydro ~24, Wind/nuclear ~12 (planete energies)

      So that's ~205g/mile for Coal - not even the top band of UK emissions based taxes.

      Petrol is about 2300g/litre, The UK average petrol economy is 36mpg (nimblefins), so that's 290g/mile.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        "

        FAIL

        It doesn't - even driving on coal powered electricity..."

        Your aren't taking into account that the grid is getting cleaner over time where a petrol/diesel engine in a car tends to get worse over time.

        1. VicMortimer Silver badge

          That wasn't really a fail.

          Your comment is both true ("the grid is getting cleaner") and irrelevant ("over time"), because the comment you replied to is showing that an EV is already cleaner NOW even if you're unlucky enough to live in a place where 100% of your electricity is produced from the dirtiest possible fossil source, coal.

          Obviously the grid IS getting cleaner. But the EV would still be better if if it weren't, because gas/diesel is worse than coal.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            "That wasn't really a fail."

            The "fail" was part of the quote, but spaces/returns got shoved in.

        2. John Robson Silver badge

          I was deliberately making the comparison as biased against EVs as I possibly could.

          Carbon Brief suggests that the 2023 average in the UK was 162g/kWh, or 40g/mile

          If you have your own solar then it's about 12g/m

          But the fact remains that even the dirtiest form of electricity generation is still significantly better than petrol - any improvement to the grid (and we're already emitting 80% less) is only going to make the difference more substantial.

          I've also deliberately excluded refinery power from my analysis - further biasing the comparison to the petrol car:

          - probably somewhere between 5 and 10kWh/gallon (but it's really hard to find a good source)

          - call it 5 and that's .14kWh/mile

          - That's either 23g/mile additionally (UK average) or 115g/mile extra (coal)

          Note that this is half of the EV emissions on it's own, and I chose the bottom end of the common estimates for energy required to refine petrol.

          Of course some of that energy is probably not electrical (they'll be burning waste oil products) - but that's no cleaner.

          Of course we could reasonably go back further towards the oil fields.... but I think the balance is already clear...

          1. John Robson Silver badge

            Argonne national lab figures (with the June 2001 paper apparently being reviewed by Shell, BP, Exxon Mobil) suggest that in the US at least ~10-11% of the energy delivered in petrol is used to get that petrol to the tank.

            That's ~3.4kWh per gallon by my reckoning, so maybe the 5 was a touch high.

            "Three energy companies — BP, ExxonMobil, and Shell —participated in the study by providing input and reviewing Argonne’s results."

  11. MJI Silver badge

    My car is 20 years old

    And still works, needs some repair work, and a very large spare part, for another 20 years.

  12. chivo243 Silver badge
    Go

    I'll wait for this technology

    https://www.motortrend.com/news/honda-general-motors-hydrogen-fuel-cell-production-start/

    Seems the electric car is just a jump start for better technologies? I may not drive one, but my kid surely will.

    Hydrogen will likely remain a niche technology among cars, pickups, and SUVs, but like diesel has been an alternative to gas, Hydrogen still stands a decent chance of becoming the fuel of choice for long-distance trucking, heavy-duty work, and power generation in a zero-carbon-emissions future. Fuel cells offer longer range and quicker refueling than battery-electric vehicles, giving them an advantage in industries where every minute of downtime has an impact on the bottom line. Advocates believe a relatively small, strategically spaced network of hydrogen filling stations could make fuel cells a viable alternative to the diesel engines that drive so much of the modern economy.

    green go icon for emphasis!

    1. John Robson Silver badge

      Re: I'll wait for this technology

      Hmm - the problem is, as is pointed out, the infrastructure.

      Filling stations don't exist, and getting hydrogen to them, and keeping it in the vehicle, is difficult*

      Electricity is relatively easy to distribute, and that infrastructure already exists.

      HGVs have down time scheduled - much of it when they're (un)loading, but also regular breaks when driving...

      * very, very difficult.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I'll wait for this technology

        Nope, the problem with hydrogen is not the infrastructure.

        It's that it's an incredibly inefficient and dangerous energy storage medium.

        It's fine when you're doing a moon shot, but as a day to day thing that the general public interacts with, it's really, really stupid.

        And efficiency is TERRIBLE, you've either got to extract it from natural gas (takes a lot of energy, and... huh, there's a bunch of CO2 that you've got to deal with) or extract if from water (oh, you thought it took a lot of energy to extract it from natural gas - lol, you ain't seen nothing yet), and then you've got to store and transport it. It's a tiny molecule, so it likes to leak out of stuff. It's reactive, so it degrades plastic and embrittles metal. And it really, really wants to burn.

        Hydrogen is a dead end. Batteries are THE answer, anything else is idiotic.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: I'll wait for this technology

          "X are THE answer, anything else is idiotic."

          I take issue with that statement in general.

          Doesn't generally matter what the X is, unless it's a very broad category.

          Hydrogen storage has one place where it makes *some* sense, and that's long term static grid-scale storage (as in weeks/months long) where the 30% RTE isn't an issue.

          I agree that it's not a practical solution, at the moment, for anything mobile (even spacecraft are moving to CH4 instead).

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: I'll wait for this technology

        " HGVs have down time scheduled - much of it when they're (un)loading, but also regular breaks when driving..."

        I think it was the Fully Charged Show where they did a ride along on an electric HGV (tractor/trailer) where charging was provided by the customer/warehouse so while the trailer was being unloaded (45-60 minutes), there was charging going on. If the HGV was doing two such runs each day and charging at either end in addition to overnight, that could be a significant number of miles covered. The key is having charging available where the truck will be stopped for a reasonable length of time.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I'll wait for this technology

          "But it's too hard to get that much power to the loading dock!"

          <looks up> "What's that on that pole in the parking lot?"

          "That's a 33kV 3-phase feeder circuit hooking up our transformer."

          <looks at idiot> "You were saying..."

          "Oh."

          Yeah. It would be relatively trivial to electrify every loading dock with DC fast chargers. Warehouses are built in industrial areas where there's already power available.

          And coast to coast trucking shouldn't be happening anyway. If it's crossing more than one or two states, it should've been put on rails. (And those rails should be nationalized and electrified, with hard limits on train length so passenger trains that legally have priority don't get stuck on sidings waiting for slow freight trains, but that's a different issue.)

        2. Evil Scot Bronze badge

          Re: I'll wait for this technology

          Not a fan of that channel. Followed their advice and am limited to class three AC charging.

          However, this in not the only usage pattern. The trailer may be left for 12-23 hours at the loading bay.

          Why not electrify the trailers?

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: I'll wait for this technology

            "The trailer may be left for 12-23 hours at the loading bay.

            Why not electrify the trailers?"

            There isn't a universal solvent for this so if the delivery company is operating a drop/hook system, that could be a problem. The trailers could be electrified, but that would mean a whole lot of trailers with battery packs sitting around most of every day. If it's Frito-Lay and they are running pallets of crisps from the factory to a distribution warehouse, the trailer isn't likely going to be reloaded with outbound freight that has to be collated and loaded back in to be hauled off to some other place.... once the product is taken out, the truck leaves with the trailer to go back to the Frito-Lay plant.

  13. Bluck Mutter

    Did the math on this recently (based on $NZ).

    EV car I liked was $70k but had a price dropped to $50k cause the werent selling... so interest rekindled.

    With trade in of four year old petrol car with 60k KM on the clock (so average 15k KM per year), I was looking at $35k to go electric (would pay cash)

    Crunched the numbers and based on total cost of ownership of both (fuel/leccy costs, maintenance, home charging only on leccy) it would take me 15 years before I would start making money on the EV car.

    Which is to say I was saving only $2300 per year running the EV over the petrol car. Petrol car efficiency is 8l/100km (35 mpg, imperial)

    So petrol it is for the next 8 years until I come to purchase a new car.

    It seems, based on my experience, that changing to an EV early on in a petrol cars ownership cycle makes no sense.

    Bluck

    1. Bluck Mutter

      forgot to add... the reason for only 35mpg is cause I live in a very hilly area so fuel efficiency take a hit (as does tyre wear**)... when running on the flat on a highway its 50mpg.

      Them there are some very steep hills.

      Bluck

      ** tyre wear (eat a front set each year as it stands) would be accelerated with an EV (due to increased weight) as would reduced range due to hill climbing but couldnt factor that into my cost of ownership calcs.

      1. Evil Scot Bronze badge

        Regen can extend range. Also due to having a near 100% torque range there is no gearbox to drop the MPG.

        And as I avoid heavy breaking my front tires last a similar number of years as my previous ICE.

    2. John Robson Silver badge

      You appear to be comparing the cost of a new car with the running costs only of an existing vehicle... which is a clearly bogus comparison.

      You could of course get a second hand EV, or you could look again at the point at which you want to change your existing vehicle anyway.

      1. Yankee Doodle Doofus Bronze badge

        They don't just "appear" to be making that comparison, they definitely are, and for them it's anything but bogus, because that's what they were considering doing. They made no claim that others wouldn't be better off with an EV. They made the calculation that, for them specifically, at that specific time, they would be better off financially by keeping their current ICE car rather than trading it in for the EV model that they have had their eyes on. The math would obviously be different for each individual, so their comment doesn't really help anyone else.

        1. Bluck Mutter

          Indeed you are a very wise and perceptive person and thanks for defending me in my absence.

          I 100% want to go EV but found, at least with NZ power costs (which keep on rising) that changing this early on in my ICE ownership cycle didnt make financial sense.

          To give you an idea of the sh*t storm power prices are in NZ, some commercial operators (saw mills, manufactures etc) are closing up shop cause their bulk power prices have gone up 600% (yes six hundred) in four years.

          Domestic isnt that bad but its still going up and up despite > 80% of NZ power coming from renewables (mainly hydro and geo).

          Bluck

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            "I 100% want to go EV but found, at least with NZ power costs (which keep on rising) that changing this early on in my ICE ownership cycle didnt make financial sense."

            You'd want to add solar to your purchase which could skew the finances. On the other hand, if the power prices are going crazy, rooftop solar might be a very good option with at least a PHEV to absorb whatever excess power you generate rather than giving back to the grid.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    ICE cars and liquid fuel will be with us for a very long time

    If you want to go EV, then good on you, enjoy.

    Buy the T Shirt, join the club, shout your love from the rooftop.

    I will stick with my ICE vehicle, and buy second hand if needs be.

    The world runs on liquid fossil fuels. This isn’t going away in any big way.

    Hang on, is that another power cut…. (Joke)

    1. John Robson Silver badge

      Re: ICE cars and liquid fuel will be with us for a very long time

      "The world runs on liquid fossil fuels. This isn’t going away in any big way."

      Yes it is... it very much is.

      It won't be the cars that stop you, it will be the unavailability of fuel.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: ICE cars and liquid fuel will be with us for a very long time

        "It won't be the cars that stop you, it will be the unavailability of fuel."

        It might also be the ZEV zones where you can't drive your ICE, parking restrictions AND the slow reduction in the number of petrol stations around ZEV zones as many people will shift to EV's and public transportation so there won't be enough demand to keep selling the petrol.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Just gone electric

    Just bought my first-ever new car, to replace a 14-year-old Honda Jazz with >100k miles on it. The previous car was a second-hand Honda Civic, which I bought at 60k miles lasted to 260k miles before being taken out by a white van (original clutch, and amazingly, original exhaust, but it did drink oil)

    I've gone electric, and I have to say, quite impressed. A 0-60 time of 3.8 seconds and range of 200ish miles when driven energetically (easy to do!) does me fine. And a 7 year warranty including the battery. It's really an experiment, to see how I get on with it. Charger installed at home (moving to Octopus for the cheap overnight charging), but work is installing free chargers next week, so will likely use those fairly exclusively. I always expected my next car to be electric if I had the funds, and so far no regrets.

    1. Evil Scot Bronze badge

      Re: Just gone electric

      Give it a year...

      and the guessometer will register 240.

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