back to article Microsoft Dynamics 365 called out for 'worker surveillance'

Microsoft Dynamics 365 provides "field service management" that allows customers to monitor mobile service workers through smartphone apps – allegedly to the detriment of their autonomy and dignity. According to a probe by Cracked Labs - an Austrian nonprofit research group – the software is part of a broader set of …

  1. A Non e-mouse Silver badge
    Holmes

    How is this new? This has been going on for years (decades?) in the world of workforce management.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Indeed. I remember one of the first jobs that I did to install a system which included GPS tracking of company vehicles.

      It wasn't until GPS tracking came along that management learned that all of their crews started the day with a diversion to a particular roadside cafe, regardless of whether or not it was in the direction of their first job.

      That was the point when they learned how many manhours and miles they'd been losing due to that being "the place with good bacon sandwiches and the waitress with the big t**s"

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        ...and then they learnt that removing this half hour of pleasure for their workers where some work things were discussed among the banter actually lost them well over half an hour's worth of goodwill and productivity?

        1. trindflo Silver badge
          FAIL

          "Microsoft disputes" ... the truth

          "Microsoft disputes that its software uses AI to make performance-based recommendations, contends that its software helps"

          I dispute Microsoft is doing anything other than fecal vocalization there.

          Ever get hustled out the door and notice a few minutes down the road you forgot something? Pressured workers make more mistakes. That does not help.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Yeah, but this has AI in it so is new and special.

      I am not particularly proud of my role in the saga, but at a company with a mobile workforce, I remember a lot of money being spent upon development of a system to take away the autonomy of mobile workers and micromanage them. The underlying assumption of all this work was senior management's opinion that the mobile workers were lazy. If that had been true, then the work allocation system would've saved money - rather than what actually happened (cost of system + less efficient workers + more workers leaving to go to competitors).

      1. Cliffwilliams44 Silver badge

        This is the problem with this kind of worker management. There is nothing wrong with a system that monitors remote workers, field workers, etc. It is when management uses those tools to micro-manage the work force to the point where they are spending more time giving management what "they" want and less time providing customers with what they need!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Previous AC here (still not proud).

          That company struck me - at the time - as one where the senior people really distrusted the workforce. At one point, they even made "improving the staff attitude survey results" one of the bonus criteria.

          I had a few laughs there though. Like one fairly senior bloke coming to me and demanding to know what was wrong with the work allocation system as his expensive initiative wasn't working out. So I lashed together some dodgy SQL and showed him there and then that it would never have worked out. And if they'd asked me - or someone else who could string a query together - before spending the money, it would've been obvious.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Expectations

    They talk a lot about how the employer can see how much time workers are taking for specific tasks, how much time they're expected to take.

    I see this in 2 very different ways.

    On the one hand, employees are actually getting paid to do a job. It's quite right that an employer can ask what have you been doing during these, say 7 hours, of each day where you were being paid money to deliver something? If it transpires they can only account for doing 2 - 3 hours of actual work then this should help flag that up. Action should be taken accordingly.

    But the flip side is what is a reasonable expectation of how long something should take? Who sets those expectations and do they have the knowledge to be able to do that accurately? The nature of a lot of IT jobs is that you're problem solving and troubleshooting in real time. Unforeseen things happen.

    Then there's life and personal circumstances. I once worked with a man who was super productive. One day his dog died and he was distraught for some time. Clearly there is no such thing as an average for efficiency or work throughput because once you factor in things like this it can really skew the stats. No system takes into account anything like this, they just deal in raw figures, which then become meaningless.

    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: Expectations

      A common issue in Scotland is folks down south really don't understand just how long it typically takes to get to rural areas.

      That can be made many times worse when* there is an accident on the A9, the main road north to Inverness and the highlands, as there are virtually no sane divert options so you can be stuck for 3 hours or more until an accident investigation team arrives and then allows the police to clear the debris.

      [*] this is very frequent as it is a busy road (remember, no divert options?) and it flips from single to dual carriageway many times. Often in the dual sections you only see the two lanes, as the opposite direction is out of sight, so it is easy for tired or overseas drivers to forget if they are on dual or single.

      Yes, you are right it should be dual all the way, but that is both a political football up here and something that is not happening soon:

      https://www.transport.gov.scot/projects/a9-dualling-perth-to-inverness/

      Edit: For those wanting accident statistics:

      https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63835914

      1. ICL1900-G3 Silver badge

        A9

        Having just got back from there , I know just what you mean. I wanted to see Rannoch Station - it seemed as if I were driving to Ireland! On the other hand, you do have fabulous scenery and lovely people.

        1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

          Re: Rannoch Station

          Errrr.... You could have taken the train.

          Any you may well have escaped being 'midged'.

          As a veteran of the West Highland Way, Rannoch Moor is a place from hell unless you have a mossie net and copious amounts of insect repellent.

          I visited the station after walking the WHW and it is indeed well worth it but I did let the train take the strain.

          1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

            Re: Rannoch Station

            Avon "Skin so Soft"

            Works as anti-midge wonderfully and not toxic like DEET, a must for anyone walking in Scotland in the decent(ish) months while midges are out. Make sure you cover everywhere though, anything exposed will be bitten otherwise!

          2. Plest Silver badge

            Re: Rannoch Station

            As a "southern softy" from London I've never understood why people get annoyed with midges. I've been up to Scotland since I was 5 years old when my parents would go to these god awful camp sites deep in midge territory, usually 3 weeks after 2 months of rain and midges would be having carnivals! You just learn to slather yourself is repellent. Did you know midges can smell humans and animals from over 2 miles away? A female can produce as many as 5,000 offspring.

            Just slap TESCO branded moz repellent, you stink like mothball for days but the midges take one lick of your skin and drop dead. I shoot landscape photos and the number of times I've stood out in Scottish Highlands oblivious to midges while everyone else is running around like crazies scratching and batting while I stand calmly waiting for a few choice moments to click the shutter.

            1. VicMortimer Silver badge

              Re: Rannoch Station

              I don't know about midges, but mosquitoes love me. I can bathe in DEET and permethrin and they'll still come after me, while anybody around me will be like "there are mosquitoes here?"

              What's worse is that the bites swell up and itch for weeks.

              I mostly avoid being outdoors as much as possible from March through November.

      2. Cliffwilliams44 Silver badge

        Re: Expectations

        "A common issue in Scotland is folks down south really don't understand just how long it typically takes to get to rural areas."

        Oh I can relate! It amazes me how some, obviously intelligent people from the UK have absolutely no idea how large the United States actually is.

        1. usbac

          Re: Expectations

          My dad used to have the same issue (before he retied). He was an independent claims adjuster for insurance companies. He was frequently having to explain his travel time bills.

          We are out west, and the companies that were based out of the east coast were usually the ones he had trouble with. He would get questions like: "How are you billing us 13 hours of travel time when the town is in the same state?" His answer would be: "The small town is 400 miles away!"

          So, even people from the US don't understand how big the US is. Especially out west here.

          1. James O'Shea Silver badge

            Re: Expectations

            The states in the Northeast (New England, New York, Penn, New Jersey, Delaware) are quite small and close together.I have had people in Connecticut (land area under 5000 square miles, total population around 3.6 million, about 70 by 100 miles in dimension) wonder why it takes so long to do things in Florida. Miami-Dade County by itself is about half the size of Connecticut and has two thirds the population. Dade plus Broward would be as big as Connecticut and have a larger population, Just driving to Jacksonville or Tampa would take multiple hours, one way. And there's a reason why I-75 to Tampa is called Alligator Alley. God help you if you try to get around a large western state: Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, Texas, California, Nevada, Utah... Train? What's a train? You drive or take a plane if you aren't in a very specific area. Brightline goes to Orlando. TriRail goes to Port St Lucie. Amtrak goes up the coast, but is slow, expensive, and very unreliable. Better to drive. Just budget a day. God help you if you hit rush hour. it's worse in Texas or California. Seriously, Miami to Jacksonville is 6 hours driving one way. More if you hit rush hour during the trip. (4 plus hours by air, 9 hours by train. Seriously.) God help you if you need to get to Georgia or Alabama.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Expectations

              Watch out, everybody! It's FLORIDA MAN.

              Incredibly unpredictable, they can seem friendly one minute and suddenly something snaps in their brain. People around them generally die when it happens.

      3. VicMortimer Silver badge

        Re: Expectations

        We have an easy solution for that in the US. The paint line separating traffic going different directions is yellow. The lines that aren't going to cause a head-on crash if you cross them are white.

  3. nematoad Silver badge
    Unhappy

    How?

    "...make that job experience better for workers,"

    And how are they going to do that when they (MS) have given management the tools to hover over the shoulder of their service people. It's all very well for MS to say that these tools should not be used to micro-manage their staff. It's another to trust that management will not do exactly that.

    I remember one call we had from the help desk asking if we could do a call to, I think, Carrick-on-Shannon. Now that town is near the head waters of the river. We were based in Shannon, the town, near its mouth. It took ages to convince that the trip was not practicable due to distance, "But" they said, "it doesn't look too far on the map."

    Let the people on the ground decide, they are after all in the best position to know what is really going on, not some algorithm or so called AI.

    For science-fiction fans a read of Jack Campbell's book called "Stark's War" will show where this sort of nonsense could lead.

  4. Scotech
    Big Brother

    Just because it CAN be used this way...

    ...doesn't mean it SHOULD. As plenty of others here have pointed out, it's not like other technologies haven’t been abused for managerial overreach in the past too. Microsoft themselves clearly state that these tools shouldn't be used in the way described, and as someone who works in this field, both as a user and a supplier of this product, I can say with confidence that they have valid applications that are useful without being used intrusively. Bad management is bad management - and bad managers have always found ways to intimidate, coerce and micromanage their employees. The fact that this technology is giving them new ways to do that isn't the problem. The problem is the persistence of these bad management styles and attitudes in the workplace, and the 'us vs them' attitude of management towards their staff in many businesses. Tech doesn't shape a company's culture and practices, it only reflects what's there anyway. If you're working for a company that doesn't respect your autonomy, you need a better job - I know that's not often easy, but changing the technology isn't going to fix the rot in a business that thinks that sort of thing is OK.

  5. tiago.pelicari

    As a sales professional, I'm sure that managers are asking for this kind of functionality. In most cases, they are bad and unprepared leaders.

  6. Evil Scot Bronze badge

    Big Data's big mistake

    Question.

    A UK based engineer makes regular comfort stops at one location. Could it be

    1) the server at the restaurant he visited previously is passing off full sugar cola as diet. Thus triggering the bowel voiding response of his diabetic medication.

    2) he is regularly meeting with individuals outside of the company and customer base for NSFW connections?

    These highly exaggerated statements could get employer in trouble. Especially if they claim #2 when #1 was the issue. and all down to the big failure of Big Data a lack of context to the data collected.

  7. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

    Not Even a Fig-Leaf

    "Now, before I can sell you this Death Star, you have to promise you will only use it for peaceful purposes. Do you so promise?"

    (Flabbergasted silence)

    "Lord Vader? Do you promise?"

    (clicks and hisses) "Yes. I promise."

    "Great! I'll run your credit card and give you your keys."

    (sotto voce) "All too easy."

    1. parrot

      Re: Not Even a Fig-Leaf

      I would have used my robot hand for good.

  8. The Central Scrutinizer Silver badge

    If gps tracking had been available when I was doing onsite support, at least on day shift, I might have been occasionally in trouble.

  9. Zazu56

    And big brother keeps getting bigger. So very glad I am now retired.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Slower than expected, or more effective?

    "The example report shows how the system accuses a particular worker named 'Bob Kozak' of being slower than expected."

    Check the customer's feedback about Bob's work, and compare it to others. If it's routinely "he takes forever to get anything done", there's a problem. If it's routinely "unlike your other folks, he actually takes the time needed to find the root cause and fix it, please keep sending him", then he's your star employee.

    In neither case do you actually need the computer's report!

    (What do you mean, you're not asking the customers for feedback? And I don't mean just a 1-to-5-star rating.)

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: Bob Kozak

      the achillies heel of workforce management systems. They can't capture context.

      "Sorry boss, the one hour job turned into a 2-day event. Thanks to penny pinching on previous visits things that should have been lubricated weren't. Rusted 2in dia bolts are not to be trifled with. In the end, I had to cut them off and then wait for new stainless ones to be delivered. Thankfully, the brewery is now functioning but it was all our own fault.

      "Get your coat. You are done here. Here is your P-45."

      Employee gives boss the finger and goes to work for Brewery. company loses contract. Success.

      AI will only make this whole thing a million times worse.

      I expect a whole load of constructive dismissal suits to be filed.

      1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Bob Kozak

        Upvote for this as it describes my day fairly accurately.

        What my days work was suppossed to be:

        Verify cell #3 after night shift set it up using proven programs/tooling(2hrs)

        Move to 5 axis, put up job #45234.(3 hrs)

        Retire to the office, fire up the CAD/CAM, and make a start on a new job (3hrs)

        What really happened.

        Empty catcher and unjam chip removal screw on cell #2 because some dumbass turned it off last night (1 hr)

        Cell #3.... ah yes.. helps if ALL the tools are loaded (3hrs)

        5 axis (3hrs.... spread across most of the day because so many other problems cropped up)

        Retire to the office.... notice a different new job on the desk with a memo glued to it saying "need a time on this ASAP" .... well there goes my el-reg time

        Beer... because we all need one

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Slower than expected, or more effective?

      I've actually seen managers complain about staff taking too long to do things, where the extra time taken was due to them doing the job properly and creating a happy customer. *facepalm*

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Our company has a d365 based ticket system for tracking requests and projects.

    Half of the stuff we do is a result of users emailing the relevant person directly, and we can't be arsed wasting 5 minutes manually logging the details of a job that took 1 minute to do.

    The stuff that does get recorded on d365, that is all that happens, it gets recorded... You see the migration to d365 was a 2 stage process. Stage 1 get the system up and running was completed long before I started working there. Stage 2 was to create some kind of reports based on that data. Stage 2 is still listed in the active projects section of d365...

  12. Mister Dubious
    Big Brother

    Manage and track time

    Can we give one of these apps to my lawyer so one might see how much time he *spent* on my issue versus how much time he *billed* for?

  13. Tubz Silver badge

    I remember back in the day working for a certain Japanese company that couldn't post a letter in a post office, wanted trackers in cars and PDA's we used for receiving jobs, they suddenly had a high rate of PDA's failures, and the cars had a lot comms failures but that may have been the dangly cables from the fuse boxes until they were returned to fleet. They also forgot that as engineers got taxed and in some places paid extra for upgrades due to HMRC rules for private usage, they forgot the off switch to comply with legal privacy laws. I remember one engineer supposedly suing the company for invasion of privacy after he was contacted by manager OOH and refused to go on a job as he said he was out with family, when his manager said he was at home according to his car and PDA, all hell broke loose.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This doesn't work unless you work as a machine

    If there is any variance in the task, or if the worker multitasks, this just doesn't work. It assumes zero-time context-switches and that tertiary tasks like learning and networking have zero value. It is grate for folks that could be replaced by a robot or AI though. But if you have to make a decision during your activity, or gather additional context with something like an interview/Q&A session.... these tools will not be able to understand what is happening. Even an entry-level service tech's nominal day will break them.... and that's if he's honest and does great work.... a worker that generates rework will look great in these systems as they can knock off jobs at a quick rate... because they are generating them on the fly.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    > "So we don't do things like recommend individual workers for specific jobs based on their performance."

    No, because that might result in the system recommending the efficient employee every time over the boss' nephew

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