School gets an F for using facial recognition on kids in canteen

The UK's data protection watchdog has reprimanded a school in Essex for using facial recognition for canteen payments, nearly three years after other schools were warned about doing the same. A statement from the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) said Chelmer Valley High School in Chelmsford broke the law when it …

[Headley_Grange]

"......schools have again demonstrated they have not had the training or capacity to procure technology that respects the law or children's rights."

No one went to prison. No one was fined. No one lost their job. No one has a black mark on their record that might impact their career. No penalties whatsoever except a "reprimand". Why would anything get better?

People's privacy will be compromised again and again until the leaders of organizations who ignore the law are punished in a way that sets an example to others.

[b0llchit]

Why would anything get better?

Nothing will get "better". Exposing others to (unacceptable) risks is (unfortunately) not a crime. These cases arise from short-term and egoistic thinking. Long term consequences are not considered because any potential problems are far-far-far away and especially not our problem. Any possible problems are not affecting the deciders and implementers and are therefore not a negative or red flag. (sigh)

[keithpeter]

An alternative would be to provide a well-publicised independent facility where a named person from an organisation that is contemplating a scheme such as this could phone up and run it past an advisor. Some here in education may remember an organisation I could be talking about. It wasn't perfect but was better than nothing.

And the advisor would take a deep breath and then explain why such a thing was a Very Bad Idea.

One of the orgs contacted by the Register's reporter did suggest that naming the manufacturer and supplier of the equipment would be a good idea and I think I agree.

Prison/convictions etc are not the answer to everything. But neither is reckless application of an IT system because it exists TBF.

[Angry IT Monkey]

The supplier is named in the ICO report if anyone's interested.

[rg287]

An alternative would be to provide a well-publicised independent facility where a named person from an organisation that is contemplating a scheme such as this could phone up and run it past an advisor.

What's interesting in the report is that the school was referred to the ICO by... their own Data Protection Officer. The school itself was - legally - well aware of the requirements. They seemingly chose not to comply with the law.

1.6 On 29 January 2024 Chelmer Valley High School’s Data Protection Officer (DPO) ‘IGS’ contacted the Commissioner and provided a DPIA that had been completed in November 2023. IGS considered the processing to be high risk, and submitted the DPIA for review. IGS confirmed that no DPIA had been completed for the introduction of facial recognition technology prior to the processing commencing in March 2023.

I'm curious as to whether this was a new DPO who landed and said "WTF is this?" or a long-suffering bod who - having been ignored by management (or been presented with this as a fait accompli without prior consultation), took the nuclear option.

It also notes that the school previously used fingerprint scanners for meals... which are not a lot better, but probably do a better job of distinguishing between identical twins (but I suppose they had post-COVID hygiene concerns regarding the contact patch).

For anyone wondering, the supplier was CRB Cunninghams, acting as a Data Processor. Not quite sure why everyone seems so reticent to name them (or link to the report!). It's not their fault I suppose that the school failed to fulfil their duties as Data Controller.

Cunningham's make a great deal of fuss about their "Fusion" platform, allowing students to pre-order meals via their app, in which case one has to wonder what's wrong with the app providing a QR code to be scanned on collection, just like an eticket to a concert. Admittedly they also have self-service terminals where students can pick meals (presumably for schools which correctly ban pupils from having phones with them during the day and confine them to lockers). In that case, you would need some form of authentication. I'd suggest using the RFID card that many larger schools already issue to staff and students these days for access control. But sure - why not reinvent the wheel?

[ITMA]

"It also notes that the school previously used fingerprint scanners for meals... but I suppose they had post-COVID hygiene concerns regarding the contact patch"

Which has always puzzled me why so many GP surgeries have "touch screen" booking in systems even before COVID.

And I noticed this on CRB Cunningham's website:

"It's just fast! Better than fingerprints - School Business Manager, Kingsmeadow School"

That sort of says it all - "School Business Manager".

[Helcat]

"Which has always puzzled me why so many GP surgeries have "touch screen" booking in systems even before COVID."

Mine provides wipes for the screen so you can clean it before or after using it. Plus hand gel so you can clean your hands before and/or after (after being better).

The thing to remember is: Getting infections on your hand isn't quite so bad: It's transferring them to other surfaces that needs to be avoided - especially your face (you'd be surprised how often you touch your own face). That's why hand hygiene was (and is) so important.

But like so many things, it gets forgotten about or not communicated well.

[ITMA]

Too many people never use the hand gel....

I use it before and after using the touch screen when ever I go.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Which has always puzzled me why so many GP surgeries have "touch screen" booking in systems even before COVID."

I regularly visit GP surgeries in our area (as a volunteer driver for patient transport) and all the self check-in screens that had been installed before C-19 are no longer in use; everyone checks in with a receptionist. I've also noticed that once crowded waiting rooms now rarely have more than a couple of patients waiting.

[ridley]

That's because you can't get an appointment in person unless you're at deaths door, but then you can't make it to the surgery.

Catch 22

[Martin an gof]

always puzzled me why so many GP surgeries have "touch screen" booking in systems

If it's anything like the ones around here, it works perfectly well if you use - say - the middle joint of your middle finger. For all such things (door openers, doorbells, cash machines, whatever. Traditional door handles are a bit more tricky*) I try to use a hip or an elbow or a knuckle. Something I'm not likely to then go on to use to touch something I'll later regret. Been doing it for years before 2020.

M.

*Sounds plausible, but I once heard someone say that hospital transferred infections rose in the 1960s & 70s when new hospitals were built or big refurbishments done and eventually someone put two and three together and realised that as well as a certain indiscipline in terms of handwashing, a lot of bacteria were being transferred via door furniture (handles, push plates). Doors from the 1960s onwards would invariably have stainless steel furniture whereas before that time it was often brass. Brass contains a large amount of Copper which has known antibacterial and antimicrobial properties, so even if not regularly cleaned, bugs wouldn't last anywhere near as long on a brass door handle as on a stainless steel one. Maybe we could go back to brass in hospitals?

.

[rg287]

Maybe we could go back to brass in hospitals?

With the rise of Hospital Acquired Infections, there's been a lot of research into this in the past couple of decades. "Antimicrobial copper" fixtures and fittings are now widely available, althought the term refers to any of 400+ alloys which have enough copper to be inhospitable to bacteria, not just brass. They're available in a range of colours and finishes from gold to bronze, silver and... err... copper.

Many hospitals have made the switch (or started specifying it for replacements as fixtures wear out or as-and-when renovations occur) but it may not be obvious because the fittings could look a lot like stainless to a casual observer!

[Martin an gof]

post-COVID hygiene concerns regarding the contact patch

If it's anything like the fingerprint system at my children's school (which we never allowed them to register for - the school carried on accepting the RFID cards they'd been using for several years), the thing failed half the time. Apparently quite a lot of queueing at dinner was caused by the reader failing to read a fingerprint and the pupil not having alternative means of payment. Eventually most pupils just went back to the cards.

The reason given to swap to fingerprints was along the lines of "bullies can't steal your finger".

M.

[MachDiamond]

I've noticed that most kids have ID cards at school anyway so why use facial scanning or fingerprints? If a card doesn't work, there should be a way to look up a name quickly.

When I was at school, there was no need to have cards, only a few kids were eligible for free meals and teachers knew the students. I'm not convinced that any of this is really necessary and is all just more security theater.

[spold]

They should at lease be made to stand in the naughty corner

[heyrick]

"No one......."

Can't upvote this enough.

[Dan 55]

Compare and contrast with France, Germany, Denmark...

The change in mentality needs to come from the top, but it takes something completely over the top like this to make the ICO do anything, usually they're about as useful as a chocolate fireguard.

[this]

None of this would be required if they had free school meals...

[Roland6]

Can't have children going up for seconds!

[Will Godfrey]

A few kids tried that when there were free school meals in a large comprehensive school in London. They were astonished that the crew serving the meals spotted them immediately. I know this to be true - I was one of those kids!

[Roland6]

At my secondary school in the 1970's if you were towards the end of the second sitting and the rush had gone, overlarge firsts and seconds were available on request...

[Martin an gof]

None of this would be required if they had free school meals...

Scotland.

Wales.

M.

[Martin an gof]

Go on. You can't just downvote without an explanation. Or are you a sore middle-Englander jealous of devolution?

M.

[hoola]

Even more basic, there is absolutely no requirement for this type of technology in schools anyway.

Quite a few years ago the school my teenage kids went to introduced a new system that requires fingerprints to purchase food.

I refused consent and asked about the system. Nobody knew anything.

What is even more stupid is the system was even slower than using the card. The card has a picture on and when presented pulled up the picture from the system. This is the reason biometrics where pushed. It made no difference. That 99% of parents have no clue is also worrying.

[Ian Johnston]

When 99% of people in a similar position to you have a different opinion about something it's always worth thinking about who is most likely to be out of step ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably because the 99% don't have the specialist knowledge to correct assess the situation, and the suppliers have a financial interest in keeping it that way. As to your general point, the history of innovation, from the invention of the wheel onwards, is full of people realising the 99%+ are wrong or haven't realised things could/should be different.

[Pascal Monett]

"FRT can result in high data protection risks"

Somebody tell that to the police. They're trying to get it everywhere.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "FRT can result in high data protection risks"

"Somebody tell that to the police. They're trying to get it everywhere."

Yup. Including, for some bizarre reason, outside that well-known nonce magnet, a Beyoncé concert. In reality, of course, they'd have much more luck deploying it directly in people's homes, where the majority of that sort of thing actually occurs. (I suppose I shouldn't be giving them ideas...)

Plus, if they're looking for known people, they'll be wasting their time in ~90% of cases: the reoffending rate for people with convictions for sexual offences is generally less than 10% (compared to >50% for many general crimes).

All of which, of course, assumes that facial recognition actually works...

(AC because I'm not gonna let you ID me, damn it!)

[Richard Pennington 1]

Re: "FRT can result in high data protection risks"

George Orwell called it a telescreen.

[tiggity]

Re: "FRT can result in high data protection risks"

TBF I would treat reoffending rates for sex offenders with a pinch of salt in the UK.

If you have any female family members / friends with a close enough relationship to tell you they have been sexually assaulted, then you may be aware of how few people are prosecuted for rape (& lesser sexual offences) & how unpleasant the process is for any woman that tries to get action taken.

e.g.

https://www.saunders.co.uk/news/virtually-all-rape-victims-are-denied-justice-here-is-the-roadmap-to-failure/#:~:text=Since%202016%2D2017%2C%20the%20number,rate%20in%202022%20was%2062%25.

Writing this as a bloke who knows multiple women that were failed by UK police / legal system in terms of sexual assault (& based on stats, probably know many other women where that is the case but dont have a close enough relationship with them for them to have confided it to me)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "FRT can result in high data protection risks"

You're not entirely wrong, but what you're talking about is an underestimation of offending rates rather than reoffending rates. If anything, this confirms that there's more to fear from people we don't know about.

[ridley]

Re: "FRT can result in high data protection risks"

Saying "so few people are prosecuted for rape" based on how many people say they were raped Vs prosecutions is just wrong.

Without a conviction you cannot say for certain that there was a rape.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "FRT can result in high data protection risks"

To be slightly obtuse, I would argue that even with a conviction you can't say for certain that someone has committed a rape.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "FRT can result in high data protection risks"

Ah, my favourite kind of downvoter – the kind that objects to demonstrable facts yet fails to comment.

_{(My second favourite is the kind that will downvote this post. In honesty, they're actually often the same kind: they just don't like reality but can't argue against it.)}

[cybergrcgb]

Re: "FRT can result in high data protection risks"

And if this country had any sense, we'd let them

[John_Ericsson]

The briefest of research (google), would have shown the school failed on the most basic data protection requirements.

Additionally I would argue that consent in these circumstances can not be freely given.

[Anonymous Coward]

> The briefest of research (google)

Top tip: don't search for "facial on kids"

[Giles C]

Supplier problem

Surely when being approached by a school for this sort of solution, shouldn’t the supplier be aware of the data protection risks and advise them accordingly.

If these companies are knowingly selling this solution into schools then they should take some of the blame, and probably get blacklisted or prosecuted accordingly for failure.

[egrep]

Re: Supplier problem

It is very unlikely that school administration independently imagined, "I want to spend school funds on something that sounds expensive and futuristic like facial recognition technology" and tried to find a supplier to match these requirements. What probably happened was that a facial recognition tech company sold the idea to the school admin, and the admin lacked critical thinking skills and technical understanding to reject it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in the day

Face recognition and school dinners wouldn’t have mixed, given the faces being pulled.

[Eclectic Man]

What about the staff?

I wonder whether the staff were also on the facial recognition system? If it was only for paying for school dinners then I suspect not, but if they were, then getting it past the teaching unions would have been interesting.

I also wonder about the company that sold this system to the school. Why didn't their salespeople explain to the school the consequences of biometrics in schools for children and the importance of informed, opt-in, consent?

[WolfFan]

Re: What about the staff?

I’m sure that the vendor was well aware of the law. I’m also sure that money talks and that the vendor knew that most of the splash would be on the school. I would expect that the installed price included a surcharge to cover fines, etc, and that the sales guy is long gone, commission in hand.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What about the staff?

I used to work at this school many years ago. The head teacher at the time was very into 'being the first' and trying out new technology. If the latest head teacher has the same ethos then I could imagine this being a case of a snake oil sales person convincing the school that 'this was the future'.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Re: What about the staff?

Monorail!

[trindflo]

Re: What about the staff?

That was awesome! I'd missed that one.

I fell obliged to post the original from The Music Man

[martinusher]

What's the problem?

One of the fundamental job skills in a school is recognizing pupils. My wife was a teacher and she could learn an entire class's names and faces inside one period. Its essential to the smooth running of a school -- you've got to know who the inmates (sorry, "pupils") are, not just their names but their cliques, interests, behaviors etc. Dinner ladies (sorry, "canteen staff") are exactly the same, in fact anyone who works with kids gets to know who they are. Its a basic survival skill.

Facial recognition is just an aid to memory. Its not an invasion of privacy in a school setting because there cannot be privacy in a school setting, the adults -- staff -- would fail in their duty of care if they did not know everything about the pupils and what they're up to. Unfortunately we've been squeezing staff, getting them to handle more and more children, which means all too often they can't police their charges adequately. This not only fails the children academically but also socially -- it opens the door to bullying and other anti-social behaviors. (Pre-teens and teens can be quite nasty -- surely you've read "Lord of the Flies"?)

[Headley_Grange]

Re: What's the problem?

Forunately, the law disagrees with you.

[heyrick]

Re: What's the problem?

Downvote because while your post raises some interesting points regarding getting to know the children you're supposed to be looking after...

... that's not what the facial recognition was being used for here.

Plus there's a big difference between "oh, that's what's-her-face, the girl that's obsessed with sharks" and having an actual record (what data? how stored? how long for? who has access? can we be sure it won't be used for any other purposes? does it perform equally for non-white pupils?) collected as a matter of course.

[Sparsely the Lion]

Re: What's the problem?

> Plus there's a big difference between "oh, that's what's-her-face, the girl that's obsessed with sharks" and having an actual record

Her name was Maria - there was a bit of a song and dance about her a few years back.

[yetanotheraoc]

Re: What's the problem?

The problem is the facial recognition data and associated data will not remain within the school. Even if there is a promise that the data will not leave the school, that promise is too easily broken. At least in the case of teachers and staff memorizing faces, names and interests, it's a much harder process to "download" all that information and use it in ways that harm the students.

[MrBanana]

Re: What's the problem?

You were going pretty well on your first paragraph, then failed - badly - in the second.

[sabroni]

Re: there cannot be privacy in a school setting

What a load of bollocks.

[WanderingHaggis]

Re: there cannot be privacy in a school setting

Define what you mean by privacy. Facial recognition is one thing but privacy outside of the toilet cubicle can allow space for abusive behaviour by pupils and staff. Check the safe guarding rules -- it is clear staff and pupils are not allowed to be in isolation together i.e. empty class room with out a window. In that sense there can't be privacy in school. FR is different in it can easily be abused and is unnecessary.

[trindflo]

Re: What's the problem?

I'm betting that you forgot the joke icon; it isn't completely obvious you were being sarcastic. The one about Lord of the Flies requires a bit of slightly obscure knowledge to know pretty much the opposite was documented in real life: Tongan Castaways

[cosymart]

Re: What's the problem?

Lord of the Flies - I gather you have issues with facts vs fiction :-)

[Dan Watson]

Wrong chips

I get why schools would resort to biometrics. Kids lose cards, keys, PIN numbers etc. keep the queue running by pressing a fingerprint or facial recognition. Bullies can’t steal the cards blah blah.

But in the real world I know just how bad schools are at cyber security (I recently send a basic simulated phishing attack across my school and over half of staff clicked on the link, 25% of staff entered their details; compared to only two students. And this is a special needs school!); in the real world you can buy a house without needing biometrics to be passed over, spend money freely in shops without so much as a PIN code.

This is why schools need to take a step back and really analyse whether it’s needed to protect a plate of chips.

So many schools also subcontract out their services so it’s impossible sometimes to get a handle on where this data is going. I’m the only person who knows what a DPO form is in my school, let alone fills one in.

[SCP]

Re: Wrong chips

Kids lose cards, keys, PIN numbers etc.

I faced a similar 'justification' when my child's primary school was looking to introduce fingerprint recognition technology for their canteen - which I naturally opposed for the many Data Protection concerns that have been aired.

On this particular point I also made the counter-point that learning to look after your shit (I might have worded it differently at the time) was a valuable life lesson that the school should be encouraging.

(I also objected to the school habituating pupils into accepting authorities demanding biometrics).

[cybergrcgb]

Privacy correctness gone mad

I really cannot think of a clearer example of supposed privacy rights destroying obviously useful functionality.

[Lee D]

Re: Privacy correctness gone mad

Describe the useful functionality you derive from this that you don't already have with a student ID card, which pretty much every school issues (or could do so for literally pennies).

[Ian Johnston]

Re: Privacy correctness gone mad

Can't be lost. Can't be stolen. Can't be loaned.

[Lee D]

Re: Privacy correctness gone mad

But if it doesn't work, the student is permanently unable to access the system (but presumably could get lunch another, manual way).

But you can: reissue a new card. That solves the first two. And if you want to stop the latter two (yes, they overlap), you do the "this is the student who should the holder of the card" thing by showing the staff a photo of whoever the card was allocated to.

Also, biometrics just aren't that reliable below age 13 (ask me how I know).

So you've implemented a complex, expensive, powerful, unreliable and data-worrying system in order to replace the cards they ALREADY have, plus the canteen lady saying "That's not your card, is it?" or even "You lost your card? What's your name? I'll look you up on the system".

Both of which, I'd like to point out, you need with the facial recognition system ANYWAY.

[Anonymous Coward]

They tried that at my daughter's school

Same game, we'll do this unless you opt out.

Which we obviously did.

I asked the school what liability insurance they had to cover identity fraud for an entire school's worth of pupils for their remaining lifetimes. The answer was not reassuring, and demonstrated their total lack of understanding of the magnitude of the risk.

After a hack of biometric data you can't fix it by resetting your passwords.

[Ian Johnston]

Re: They tried that at my daughter's school

Go on. Explain how a hash from a particular system's recognition system helps identity theft. Now explain why banks use facial recognition in their mobile apps.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: They tried that at my daughter's school

"Go on. Explain how a hash from a particular system's recognition system helps identity theft." - I obtained no assurance that the only personal or biometric data they would be retaining would be a hash.

"Now explain why banks use facial recognition in their mobile apps." - a bit of a non-sequitur there, but I imagine for the same reason the schools did. However I think there's plenty of evidence around that there's only a loose correlation between a bank doing something and it being a good idea.

[Roland6]

Re: They tried that at my daughter's school

> Now explain why banks use facial recognition in their mobile apps.

Not in the know, however, going back 20+ years, we used continuous speech recognition to improve the security of our app. Yes the user signed in, but the continuous speech recognition allowed us determine if only one and the same person was making all transactions in a session and that there was a strong probability they were the same person who had previously used the app with the supplied credentials.

So I expect facial recognition is just another factor in the security profile.

[SCP]

Re: They tried that at my daughter's school

Without wishing to go down this particular rabbit hole too far - one can still find occurrences of password systems where the implementor has failed to appreciate the importance of salting. Unsalted hashes have a significant weakness against birthday attacks. Without knowing the details of the system we cannot not properly assess this particular case - but we should all be aware of far too many cases of security not being properly implemented, even for things we have known for decades.

Another problem is that hashes typically throw away information and the whole verification process involves balancing false-positive and false-negative rates. Unfortunately the balance can shift the costs onto different participants. What recourse does the child have if "the computer says no". What if the system happens to register another child against your child's account.

People can propose additional checks that staff can do at the time - but in practice these undermine the intended reason for introducing the system, and you might as well simply avoid the cost and DP risks by not going down this route.

[Richard Pennington 1]

Old-School method

Years ago, one of the colleges in Cambridge had an almost foolproof method of detecting outsiders sneaking into the hall for meals. Their ticket man was one of the porters ... and he had a photographic memory. Every year, he would visually scan the freshers' photo, so he would know at sight who all the legitimate students were.

[Lee D]

Ah.... <smug mode>

Ah.... <smug mode>

I work in schools and have always run into this (along with other biometrics) and the answer was always: You want it, you put it in. I'm not doing it.

"The school did not get the views of its data protection officer, nor did it consult parents and students before rolling out FRT, the ICO said."

You know why? That person, if they are doing their job, would have told them where to go. The parents and students would also have likely told them where to go (though that's less certain, people are largely ignorant of the risks!).

I don't honestly understand the use case - handling a bunch of students at lunchtime barely needs much technology and it's far cheaper, easier, quicker and less hassle to just use a card system (which they almost certainly already have). Facial recognition does nothing extra unless you're claiming that students are stealing each other's cards and using them for parent-paid services - and in that case you have far larger problems than the canteen staff having to be reassured that little Freddie actually is little Freddie. Hell, just the fact that the parent has access to that account will tell you that such fraud is highly unlikely to be a regular occurrence, and it's far better handled by a photo on the card (or, better yet, a system that when the student scans the card, the person behind the till is GIVEN THEIR STUDENT PHOTO on the screen to compare with - now they can't even cover the card photo with one of themselves.

Cost? Almost zero. They already have cards, they already have student photos on a centralised database, they already have them printed on the card.

And literally every biometric supplier I've ever spoken to has said the same thing: Useless below the age of 13 or thereabouts because of high numbers of false positives, false negatives and changing biometrics.

Sorry, but biometrics have no place in a school any more than a teacher that would have to "scan" their pupils with a barcode to recognise them, remember who they are and where they got up to last lesson.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Ah.... <smug mode>

What's wrong with simply giving a meal to any kid who asks for one?

The extra spend on food would be easily offset by a saving in administration costs and licensing of creepy face-scanning tech

edit: I'd guess the answer to my own question is: In most cases school meals are outsourced to a third-party catering supplier, who are literally the bullies stealing your lunch money. If you are "entitled" to free meals then they need to prove to some beancounter that you are who you said you were, or they don't get their money.

[NXM]

Re: Ah.... <smug mode>

"What's wrong with simply giving a meal to any kid who asks for one?"

Well, I'd go back for seconds, thirds, fourths, and extra pudding. They'd find me in the playground later having died of blubber.

[ITMA]

Re: Ah.... <smug mode>

Seconds? Thirds? Fourths?

Have you ever had school dinners?

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Ah.... <smug mode>

I don't honestly understand the use case - handling a bunch of students at lunchtime barely needs much technology and it's far cheaper, easier, quicker and less hassle to just use a card system (which they almost certainly already have). Facial recognition does nothing extra unless you're claiming that students are stealing each other's cards and using them for parent-paid services

I think I do. So some years ago, this happened-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006

A Home Office minister, Meg Hillier, said that they would be a "convenient" way for young people to prove their age when going to bars and that at £30 they were cheaper than purchasing passports (£77.50 at the time).

Along with similar claims that an ID card would make life 'easier' for people in the UK to do things they'd never needed an ID card for before. Plus using 'creeping compulsion' to insert the 'need' for ID cards into public life. The Con/Lib government then repealed the Act.. But it's always been lurking in the background. And what better way to groom people into accepting the 'need' to have an ID card than introducing them into schools, along with conditioning the next generation into accepting that cards, finger print scanning, facial recognition etc is the norm.

[Roland6]

>What's wrong with simply giving a meal to any kid who asks for one?

It's down to "costs" and "savings", not all pupils have school meals and only a set number of "portions" are produced (avoids "waste").

Provide all pupils in a school with free meals and make allowance that some pupils will skip meals and others will want seconds (like they did back when schools had real kitchens and catering staff) and the problem largely disappears. Naturally, this (old school) approach meant there was something for the pigman to collect everyday, so there wasn't any real waste going into the dustbin, like it does today.

[GlenP]

Some schools do provide free meals to all. I know of at least one (and I'm sure there are others) where it was decided that with 60%+ of the pupils eligible for free meals it would be cheaper to simply provide meals to all than pay the administration costs.

[Roland6]

We got my children's primary school to provide free breakfast to all, it had a big impact on classroom order (ie. lack of disruption) and children's attention, plus helped social inclusiveness, so was adopted as standard.

Interestingly, this had a bigger impact than the free dinners and seemed to get children into school on time more often...

[MachDiamond]

"We got my children's primary school to provide free breakfast to all, it had a big impact on classroom order"

That sounds like there's a parenting problem. If those parents are able to afford loads of tattoos and piercings, they should be able to feed their kids on the multitudes of programs there are for free food to families with children. My mom wasn't full with money when I was growing up, but she made sure we had food. We were also taught to make a packed lunch on our own and wash up our lunch things when we got home. What's all this demand that The State do these things?

[Roland6]

> That sounds like there's a parenting problem.

Yes, but also a demographic problem ie. Some kids did have (depending on your viewpoint: interesting / problematic / challenging home situations ( and this included those excluded from private schools and well off homes).

Like you we weren’t flushed with money, my first post grad IT job, I earned more than my parents combined income.

The challenge was doing something in the timescales that would benefit your own children’s education. Providing breakfast was a cheap, simple and quick solution that could be got up and running in a couple of weeks and could be run by volunteer parents/PTA. Any other solution and you were negatively impacting education by permitting the classroom disruption / distractions to continue. The success with the one year group, convinced the headmistress to then approach the LEA to get funding for the whole school.

A big issue was getting parents to disclose their financial situation so that the school could get maximum Pupil Premium; which could be spent on things like breakfasts…

Now some 10+ years later, it is nice to see some of the kids from less advantaged backgrounds performing above expectations - like going to uni, all because they were able to gain more from their junior school education.

[MachDiamond]

"Now some 10+ years later, it is nice to see some of the kids from less advantaged backgrounds performing above expectations - like going to uni, all because they were able to gain more from their junior school education."

With all of the programs for low-income parents to be able to buy food for their families, I'm finding a duplication at the schools as a big inefficiency. I know in the US that the benefits programs are rife with waste. Fizzy drinks, crisps, energy drinks, protein bars and all sorts of other poor choices can be purchased with benefits money. Ready meals and take-away are another big waste. I can have a nice steak dinner with potato/rice, veg and iced tea for less than a Big Mac combo if I buy when steak is on offer. I don't cook a fancy meal every time, but I will make a big batch of something a couple of times a week, portion it out and freeze things that can be reheated quickly. Tonight I plan to make a bunch of steak and Guinness pies. It's a bit more work than just making one big one, but it means a week or more of them in the freezer. I got a great deal on a box of tomatoes at the farmers' market and made pizza sauce which I canned. I already had basic red sauce put up and find that I often turn that into pizza sauce anyway.

Maybe it's the decline of cooking at home that's lead to these issues. Having grown up without lots of money and having gone through some rough patches I've fought back by being able to make food at home. I had a friend with 6 kids (4 for free and 2 accidents) and he had to work like mad and sort out how to feed and cloth the brood so he and his wife (and the older kids) would cook big batches and can stuff in season. When they lived in Alaska, there was a rota for who got first dibs on big animals that got hit by cars/trucks. Meat wasn't a problem, but fruit and veg were.

[Roland6]

>” With all of the programs for low-income parents to be able to buy food for their families, I'm finding a duplication at the schools as a big inefficiency.”

Yes and no, the programme at school targets the individual child, avoiding the home situation: child knows if they get to school before 9, there will be a meal for them…

Totally, agree there is som major social change factors at play, however, as I said, my priority was effecting change in timescales that would benefit my children’s education - moving them to another school would involve upheaval and no guarantee of problems not reoccurring.

Interestingly, once we got the programme up and running, we started to get donations of food - a box of bananas that would otherwise go to waste, can make a healthy snack for a class of children.

[MachDiamond]

"Interestingly, once we got the programme up and running, we started to get donations of food"

Schools would be a good place for "ugly veg" to wind up rather than being left in the field to rot.

[MachDiamond]

"A big issue was getting parents to disclose their financial situation so that the school could get maximum Pupil Premium"

Yeah, I'm sure given how poor data security is that handing over personal finances to yet another spotty mob isn't going to go over well. If those parents aren't asking for some income based support, why should they be required to disclose their financials? If they are, they have a choice.

[Roland6]

> why should they be required to disclose their financials?

Agree, hence why it was an issue, the school could only draw down the additional funding if parents did disclose to the school - the local authority et al aren’t joined up…

Obviously, with schools being under/tightly funded, spending monies on anything other than teachers salaries is very difficult.

All we could do at the PTA was to fund raise and encourage people to disclose the financials to the headmistress, so monies could be added to the pot. My experience of this is why I think providing free meals to all in junior schools is a no brainer, as it improves outcomes for all pupils at the school, without explicitly identifying those who are disadvantaged.

[gillburt]

fingerprinting

What about fingerprint scanning? Majority of schools I know use fingerprint biometrics for canteen payments.

How is using a fingerprint less of an issue that facial recognition?

[Headley_Grange]

Re: fingerprinting

What about dinner tickets? That's how it used to work. Queue up Monday morning, buy your week's dinner tickets. Hand them in to the 6th former at the front of the queue. Eat your dinner.

[Pier Reviewer]

Re: fingerprinting

The idea behind fingerprints etc is to avoid the kids holding onto transferable value. Cash, tickets, some cards all increase the risk that some kids get the **** kicked out of them so some other kids can take the valuable thing off them.

There’s always some risk. The key is to manage it appropriately. Fingerprints tend to be less invasive than full facial recognition and perform the same job. Whilst tickets avoid all the data protection risk, they don’t manage the risk of kids getting kicked about for the cash they use to buy the tickets, or the tickets themselves.

The school (hell, almost any school) looking to use facial recognition is insane. Them doing it without consulting their own DPO suggests the SLT aren’t competent or fit to run a school.

[MachDiamond]

Re: fingerprinting

"Cash, tickets, some cards all increase the risk that some kids get the **** kicked out of them so some other kids can take the valuable thing off them."

These days it's easy enough to print the tickets with the child's name on them. If a bully takes those tickets, the name on them won't match up with ID and there could/should be a discussion with them about how they got those tickets. A simple UV mark can thwart forgeries.

[Jonathan Richards 1]

Re: fingerprinting

That's exactly the sort of question that is answered in the Privacy Impact Assessment that wasn't done in this case (well, not in time, anyway). Ask any of those schools whether you can have a read of the PIA that they wrote before installing their fingerprint scanners; it should contain all the foreseeable risks, and the mitigation measures. At a guess, I'd say that fingerprinting is not much less of an issue than facial recognition. Lots of teenagers' faces will change before adulthood; their fingerprints not so much.

[Claverhouse]

Yet Another Brexit Benefit !

So in the bad old days of dependency to EU Tyranny, we had whatever, and then UK GDPR, and now we are Free, we have the FRT.

I hope the kids are appreciative.

[b1k3rdude]

I have to laugh/caugh at this bit -

"In doing so, the school failed to seek "opt-in" consent, which meant the school wrongly relied on "assumed consent" at first, which is not a valid form of consent and requires explicit permission in the eyes of the law."

So why isnt that standard applied everywhere? I dont see the met police, the welsh police (or insert name of arsehole quango here) asking for explicit consent before rolling our FRT on unsuspecting members of the public.

[Anonymous Coward]

At my son's school the dinner ladies recognise all the children's faces and debit their school meals accounts accordingly. Why is using computers to do the same thing so woo-woo scary?

[Test Man]

The question here should always be: "what actual issue are you trying to fix here with this new system?". If there isn't any substantial reasons, then it should be killed there and then.

In respect to this, we can go back and forth over how good this system is, or the risks (of hacks), but at the end of the day, if there isn't any real reason for implementing it, then it's pointless.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, surely, that's the inexorable march of progress, force-fed as "fun and games" to the most vulnerable of us, the little ones, and their tummies. How else can we usher a modern world where expensive canteen workers are replaced by highly efficient, and food-safety-concious, consumable AI automatons of the highest moral fiber? The future is so bright these days ...

[ridley]

So they were given a slip to see if they agreed with using FRT. What did they give students that didn't agree with it?

A ski mask?

[GWP]

Right question to the wrong problem

Seems like we're trying to fix the wrong problem here. Why do we have kids paying for school meals at all?

With the cost of installation, maintenance, operations, payment processing etc. Then add in the time of the school staff learning the system, school business manager (!) organising contracts and so on then how much difference is there in offering the school meals for free and removing the data processing discussion altogether?

[Ian Johnston]

If facial recognition technology is so dreadful, why do banks use it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this a serious question? Or are you actually thinking it's a good idea? They use it because it's cheap, gives good theatre, and they don't care about the long term issues for their customers (or anything much other than the next quarter's financials).