Epic accuses Apple of foul play over iOS access, wants EU to show DMA red card

Apple has twice unfairly blocked Epic Games from opening its iOS app portal in the EU, the Fortnite maker claims, and thus is in violation of the continent's Digital Markets Act (DMA). After the introduction of the DMA in March, Epic Games announced it would be bringing its own sales portal, imaginatively dubbed the Epic Games …

[Rich 2]

FFS

I have an iPhone and I (mostly) like it. And we have MacBooks in the house too. So I generally like apple stuff.

But I really wish the EU would get their finger out and kick their arses into next week instead of this nonsense “make a law, wait for it to be ignored, consult, information gather, wine a bit, ask Apple to play nice, etc etc etc”

What the EU should do it write down in clear prose EXACTLY what Apple must do. And equally importantly, what Apple CANNOT do. AND DON’T TAKE MONTHS OVER WRITING IT!! Give Apple no wriggle room at all and give them a few weeks (not months or years!) to comply. And make it very clear that the instruction can be changed on a whim if Apple try something that’s not covered, to which Apple must comply IMMEDIATELY - not after 6 months of thinking about it.

[* replace Apple with cowboy tech company of your choice, as the need arises]

It’s infuriating that the EU have some great ideas like their privacy and competition regulations and then spend decades actually (not) getting everyone to comply. Aaarrrrggghhhhh

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: FFS

Good intentions, but here's the cynical reality:

If they were to take quick decisions:

- it would show that they do not need the gazillion bottom feeders that hang off any political process

- it would create less work for lawyers

- it would not allow the influence peddlers to wine and dine the decision makers. Please don't make them pay for their own lunch, they can't afford that on their tax free, all expenses paid salary.

So, fat chance that there will be ever a quick decision coming out of Brussels.

[ChoHag]

Re: FFS

Come to Brexit Britain! We'll show the EU just how fast a government can move! Eventually...

[DS999]

Re: FFS

What the EU should do it write down in clear prose EXACTLY what Apple must do. And equally importantly, what Apple CANNOT do.

Apple might even prefer that situation, providing there was a way to challenge what they felt where overly broad limitations on what Apple "cannot" do. Having poorly written rules where the only way you can tell if you're complying is by the rulemaker not coming down on you isn't good for either side. It would be like how speed limits used to be in some US states where there was no numerical limit, just "reasonable and prudent". So basically they could get you for doing 65 mph on a straight open road if the cop didn't like you, while letting someone else fly by at 115.

I think in this case with Epic Apple wants to insure Epic's app store looks different enough that there is no possible confusion from customers. It is too bad we can't see the buttons Apple is rejecting for being "too similar", so we can't tell if Epic is changing a few pixels to make them slightly wider but trying to deliberately make it look like Apple's app store or if it is quite obvious and Apple is deliberately delaying things. Perhaps both are true.

[Dan 55]

Re: FFS

There is no confusion - the user opens Apple's App Store app and they're in Apple's App Store, they open a third-party app store app and they're in the third party app store.

Apple can't reject an app store for using the standard app-store nomenclature that is used everywhere else. Firstly it's ridiculous to reject an app store because of that, and secondly shouldn't be necessary for the EU to write a law saying what labels can and can't go on which buttons and what size and shape the buttons are supposed to be.

What the EU should do is slap Apple with a fine for every episode of this nonsense until Apple finally get the message.

[LybsterRoy]

Re: FFS

--- they open a third-party app store app ---

and then they wander off for a cup of coffee and a chat, when they get back they don't know which store they're in because they all look the same.

[doublelayer]

Re: FFS

That doesn't mean that interfaces should be made different in every way. As long as they don't deliberately say that it's the Apple one, then you can figure out which one you're in by looking for the logo, name, or information. Or you could go to the home screen, pick the one you want to be in, and be sure you're in there. This is always assuming that Epic's interface will look exactly like Apple's even though it's unlikely to do so because some of the things on Apple's store interface don't make sense in an Epic one. In none of these cases would design of individual UI elements be relevant.

[I could be a dog really]

Re: FFS

Indeed, it sound like (to use the analogy above about BMW having to get approval from Ford) rejecting a car design because the ignition key is ignition key shaped. Something like a button is now something users expect to be a certain general design - rectangle, landscape, rounded corners, a label in it to say what it does, and often colour coded.

If Apple really are rejecting it for that then the EU needs to come donw on them hard. It's not like they don't have form for taking the urine on things like this.

[gnasher729]

Re: FFS

It’s intentionally confusing. Even if you claim to be clever enough to distinguish between two stores. It must be obvious for stupid people as well m

[gnasher729]

Re: FFS

“ There is no confusion - the user opens Apple's App Store app and they're in Apple's App Store, they open a third-party app store app and they're in the third party app store.”

Tell my wife that.

Some years ago when Samsung built phones that copied the iPhones of the time, more than one grandma bought her grandchild an iPhone made by Samsung.

[doublelayer]

Re: FFS

"I think in this case with Epic Apple wants to insure Epic's app store looks different enough that there is no possible confusion from customers."

I think it's more likely that Apple wants to throw as many blocks in Epic's way because they don't like them or anyone else who wants a separate store. They have done exactly what you don't like the EU doing: making vague rules for how you could maybe do the things the DMA says you're allowed to do, rules which already violate the spirit and possibly the letter of the DMA, then say that everyone who has tried is in violation of those vague rules to delay them getting anything done. The various arguments about how you can tell someone that your website has cheaper prices because it avoids the tax, whether you can only do that in one place, whether you have to specifically ask for Apple's permission for the layout of that screen when you tell them, whether you have to pay Apple and how much, all of these things are ridiculous actions taken in, at best, malicious compliance. The further investigations suggest that it wasn't compliance at all.

[LybsterRoy]

Re: FFS

The EU would also have to write such instructions that it is clear that these rules apply in the EU and nowhere else in the world.

[gnasher729]

Re: FFS

“Applies in the EU” - what if a US citizen goes on holiday in the EU, or EU citizen in the USA? What if they buy a phone in the other place? Perhaps a used one? Move permanently? Register with a foreign App Store? Switch their language to “French” or “English (US)”?

[Mage]

Apple not fit to be gatekeepers

A bit of a conflict of interest.

They either play the "security" card or the "you are copying us" card.

No-one ever should have won "look and feel" cases on OS, program or GUI implementation. Only cases of copying the internal code (but not APIs).

It's about competition. Apple have never wanted it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Apple not fit to be gatekeepers

@Mage

Can I assure you that as a business owner I and every other company has or still does exist does not want competition

[devin3782]

When two dicks go to war pettiness is all that you can score. Grow up Tim.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Epic

If you hate Apple so much why don't you buy a load of stock and get a place on the BOD?

I don't game so Epic is just another 4-letter word to me but it seems that they go out of their way to make Apple angry. If their 'button' is very similar to the APPL one then change it. It can't be that hard but no, they cry wolf and moan and whinge about it being unfair...

I'm sure that if EPIC had the will they could comply but then they would not get the publicity for free... Cynical? You bet.

[Dan 55]

Re: Hey Epic

And if their button were not similar to Apple's one then Apple would reject their submission for not following UI guidelines.

This kind of nonsense just needs to be stopped with heavy fines.

[SundogUK]

Re: Hey Epic

It's Apple's platform. If they don't want you on it they should be allowed to say 'Fuck off. Build your own platform.'

[Cruachan]

Re: Hey Epic

Let's see how Apple would react if Microsoft or Google demanded that all iTunes purchases made on Windows or Android were subject to a 30% fee in the Microsoft Store or Play Store.

[gnasher729]

Re: Hey Epic

“ Let's see how Apple would react if Microsoft or Google demanded that all iTunes purchases made on Windows or Android were subject to a 30% fee in the Microsoft Store or Play Store.”

You can’t buy from the Apple iTunes Store (music, videos etc) or from the AppStore on Windows or android. I sometimes buy music from Amazon and play it on my Mac or iPhone. Apple doesn’t get a penny because it is an in-app purchase. Likewise I bet I could export music I bought through iTunes to windows or android. That would not be in-app purchases.

If iTunes allowed in-app purchases on windows or android then apple would be happy to take 70%.

[Dimmer]

Hey Reg - temu

Got any dirt on the Temu app and that it is supposedly a virus?

[KeshLives]

If Apple's so bad, don't use it. And why does Epic need Apple if they're so great?

Apple does NOT have a monopoly, Google is out there.

[Rich 2]

It doesn’t matter how great a software company you are if the people that make the hardware are actively preventing you from running your code in their kit. Which is exactly what Apple are doing - at least it’s what they are doing if the software company doesn’t want to pay Apple’s protection money.

I’m not defending EPIC and I’m not damning them either - I don’t know anything about them - but Apple are behaving like a spoilt brat at best, and like the mafia at worse.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is all about ratings

At least according to Donald Trump.

If EPIC can get more column inches, Social Media hits etc by going after Apple and not Google then.... Clicks means $$$$$$$$ and lots of them.

[SundogUK]

Apple has spent the money to build the platform. It's theirs. They own it. Their rules. Don't like it? Build your own.

[doublelayer]

I have spent the money on an iPhone. It's mine. I own it. I decide what runs on it, without paying Apple for the privilege. If they try to deny me that ability, I try to make it a requirement. The same reason the person who built your house cannot decide what you do in it. Even if they still own it and you're renting, they still don't get a lot of choices about what you do in it, though they have more control. But I did not rent my Apple devices from Apple. I bought them.

[CowHorseFrog]

Yeh if pedophiles are so bad, dont jail them just let them be...

[Anonymous Coward]

@CowHorseFrog

I have tried to understand the mental gymnastics you must have oerformed to get from Apple to paedophiles. Happily, I have failed.

[LybsterRoy]

I'm not a gamer so I don't know - does EPIC software only run on iOS? If it runs on Windows why not dump the iOS version? If it doesn't run on Windows - why not?

[I could be a dog really]

How about, if you don't have an iOS version, iStuff owners can't ply your games. Apple are not a monopoly, but they do have a very significant market share. So not supporting iOS meaning not supporting those users to also be your users.

And there's a knock on. If you aren't on iOS, then it leaves the door open for someone else to fill the gap. And if they do that, that risks you losing not only iOS users, but also a lot of others.

[Snake]

Shhh! Don't nudge the iZombies, they'll have to deal with reality and then what??!

[Grogan]

Well... the obvious, primary purpose of walled gardens is to protect revenue streams.

I detest Epic and anything I can do to deprive that company of money is my pleasure, but to be fair... Apple isn't concerned about your security with an Epic store application. They would happily let Epic sell their games in the Apple app store, for their 30% cut.

[CowHorseFrog]

If apple wanted to protect their clients, they should close down the app store, because lets face it there are bad apps and theres no way to stop all of them.

[ChoHag]

If Apple want their marketplace taken out of their hands entirely, they're going the right way about it.

[Panicman]

STF Non apple fan boys

Seriously getting tired of the constant Apple bashing on this site and by commenters. I get it, I get the angle this site takes but the comments on Apple stories are just over the top. You have many choices with mobile, desktop, laptop and tablet. There are other operating systems, devices and platforms you can choose. You can totally use the Internet without touching any Apple services. STF and use something else. Apples platforms and services were never ment for the majority of the demographic that reads this site. Get over it. They will never make a platform that is as open as you wish. It’s not their model or their market. STF and stop crying, there are other choices… EPIC’s moaning is just an economic play, they have no interest saving their customers $$$. Seriously !?!?!?

[SundogUK]

Re: STF Non apple fan boys

The Register's commentariat has been taken over by Communists. Which is a shame but does mean they're really easy to troll.

[Dan 55]

Re: STF Non apple fan boys

You are right in one thing at least, it’s not their model or their market, it's the EU countries' model and market. Apple can follow the law just as they are so eager to do in China and Russia, get fined, or withdraw from the EU market, any one of those options will work.

[I could be a dog really]

Re: STF Non apple fan boys

You have the wrong analogy.

True, an end user can choose any platform. But for the likes of Epic, they cannot choose what platform you as the end user uses.

[Handy Plough]

Re: STF Non apple fan boys

The problem here is that Epic is an immoral org whose sole existence is to nickel and dime kids. Yes, yes, “won’t somebody think of the children?!” Though in this case, it about death by a thousand paper cuts for parents. Micropayments, and abused by cunts like Tim Sweeney are vile, and it would be great to see the EU hammering these shiesters hard. By supporting them, they are implicitly supporting the notion that constant micropayments for shitty games is fine. Be under no illusion, Tim Sweeney want to lock you in to his store to charge you what he wants, and that’s fine, just don’t tell me that this is about frEeDhUM!!1! - this is a late stage capitalist complaining that he can’t fleece you the way he wants to.

[gnasher729]

Epic is owned by TenCent which just had about 1.5 billion passwords stolen (out of the recent ten billion password stash). And now they want to distribute software on iPhones. What could possibly go wrong?