Since joining NATO, Sweden claims Russia has been borking Nordic satellites

Sweden says its satellites have been impacted by "harmful interference" from Russia ever since the Nordic nation joined the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) last March. The Swedish Post and Telecom Authority (PTS) first confronted Russia about the interference on March 21, according to Bloomberg, exactly two weeks …

[Pascal Monett]

"A Kremlin representative"

Who is, of course, a paragon of truthfulness and virtue and could never tell a lie. Of course he's going to deny. They denied Tchernobyl until the rest of world was red in the face before mumbling that there might have been an issue.

It's come to a point where Putin's Russia could actually admit something and everyone else would be like "whoa, what angle are they playing now ?".

[42656e4d203239]

Re: "A Kremlin representative"

>It's come to a point where Putin's Russia could actually admit something and everyone else would be like "whoa, what angle are they playing now ?".

Indeed. Which is what The Kremlin wants.

[Magani]

Re: "A Kremlin representative"

"A Kremlin representative, Dmitry Peskov, claimed he had no idea what the Swedes were on about."

We need to change the 'Plausible Deniability" to the more realistic, "Implausible Deniability".

[Michael Strorm]

"Russia doesn't lie to deceive you. Russia lies to insult you."

I have no doubt this is intentional.

A few years ago, in the wake of the Salisbury poisonings (c. 2018), I was listening to a BBC interview with a senior Russian discussing the murder of Alexander Litvinenko a decade or so prior. (*)

The interviewee was responding to questions regarding Litvinenko's death with implausible and unconvincing responses, e.g. suggesting theories, such as he may have died from an undiagnosed heart condition.

What came across strongly to me was that this was not someone who *expected* these answers to be believed- quite the opposite. It was clear that he was using these intentionally flimsy responses to mock the interviewer and the Western establishment/audience. Gloating not just at the fact that we knew he was lying, that he was playing games with the interviewer, but that he knew that *we* knew- because he was deliberately making it obvious- and there was nothing we could do about it.

A few years later- in the wake of the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine- my opinion of this was reinforced by numerous other comments I read which noted that use of deliberately unconvincing lying- as a form of power play towards their own people as much as others- was a common characteristic of Russia. That everyone knew they were lying- and were *meant* to know that they were lying- but had no choice but to go along with it.

Someone summed it up succinctly- "Russia doesn't lie to deceive you. Russia lies to insult you."

(*) If I remember correctly, it was with Andrey Lugovoy, the man personally accused of Litvinenko's murder himself.

[I like fruits]

Re: "Russia doesn't lie to deceive you. Russia lies to insult you."

Fortunately reality caught up with those lying pricks. Ukrainians make them eat that humble pie with a big spoon. 3 times a day. It turns out they can't bul***t their way out of the war.

[Michael Strorm]

Re: "Russia doesn't lie to deceive you. Russia lies to insult you."

Yeah, but everyone knew it was "bullshit" in the first place- that was the point. And I don't think the war has changed that, even if it's reduced their impunity and exposure in the West.

Much as I'd like to see that smug, lying smirk wiped off the face of Putin and his colleagues, I don't think that'll ever happen until- if- they're strung up like Mussolini.

[Blank Reg]

Re: "Russia doesn't lie to deceive you. Russia lies to insult you."

It's only a matter of time. His actions are costing the oligarchs billions. Eventually someone will get fed up enough to find a way to introduce Putin to some high speed lead

[Chris 15]

Re: "Russia doesn't lie to deceive you. Russia lies to insult you."

Introduce him to window skydiving more like- obviously no parachute

[Alan Brown]

Re: "Russia doesn't lie to deceive you. Russia lies to insult you."

Russia lives and breathes on Vranyo.

There's a good YT video on the subject by Perun

[Anonymous Coward]

At what point does faffing with electronic space over another's territory constitute a crime (and how do you hold to account)? I mean, the GPS jamming targetting Poland and the Baltic States (almost certainly from Kaliningrad) is a daily occurrence. And I've seen attacks on devices using GPS for timing purposes that have necessitated a rethink of timing strategies also.

A perhaps more pertinent question is what the hell does Russia get by being the bad boy? Does being an international pariah serve to shore up control? Oligarchs bank accounts?

Or what?

[EvilDrSmith]

The Russian Aggressor State* / Putin are frequently described as playing a zero sum game, where for Russia/Putin to win**, someone else has to lose.

That seems now to have morphed into 'If someone else loses, Putin wins'.

It's the toddler that looks you in the eye then breaks something, because it wants attention.

(*US government term, I believe, and since El Reg now roosts in the US)

(**I suspect that Putin considers that the only wins for Russia are those that are actually wins for Putin)

[sitta_europea]

"...what the hell does Russia get by being the bad boy?"

It's just to keep the Russian population under the thumb. It's pure politics. That's all it's about. Putin doesn't need the land, although he could make use of some of the resources.

As long as he can keep reinforcing the bunker mentality, there's somebody to blame for everything that's bad about living in Russia and Putin can be the hero struggling against all the odds.

It's depressing that most of a continent full of people can fall for it, but they have done and they continue to do so.

In the end I think it will probably backfire, and the people who've been duped for so long will finally lose patience, drag their masters out into the streets, and hang them.

I hope so, anyway.

[Elongated Muskrat]

Russian history is not so much littered with public hangings, as people carelessly falling out of windows, meeting untimely ends in basements, and accidentally eating something they shouldn't have. I think cousin Vlad is probably very wary by now of only ever being on the ground floor of a building, and having someone taste all his food for him.

[Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch]

It is tragic that the two feudal empires that survived into the 20th century, Russia and China, made it into the 21st without experiencing all of freedom, stability and peace at the same time. Now they're exporting the reason - leadership paranoia - to the parts of the world that did, on an industrial scale.

[Alan Brown]

You may be joking but by all accounts Vlad DOES have food tasters who accompany him everywhere

[Sandtitz]

"In the end I think it will probably backfire, and the people who've been duped for so long will finally lose patience, drag their masters out into the streets, and hang them."

Don't hold your breath. Putin has his personal National Guard and their real job is to protect the ruling kleptocracy, with troops online monitoring social networks. There's no freedom of assembly anymore and of course severe penalties for apparently anything really. It would require a tremendous breakdown of the society to affect the state violence members' status and benefits before any sort of meaningful revolt could happen. Look at NK - they have over a half century head start with no end to the tyranny in sight.

In the end the Russian mentality can be characterised as Homo Sovieticus - idea where obedience to or passive acceptance of everything that government imposes is superior. Lenin and the Soviets built this on top of a prevailing mindset from the much older (imperial Russian) days where ordinary people (peons) are resigned to fatalism, 'avos', where "Anything that happens cannot be helped, we'll just have to endure and wait for things to change for better - or worse."

[Anonymous Coward]

"Nichevo", a peculiarly Russian word describing that philosophy.

Evidence suggests fatalism is not necessary, and the tightening of communications is precisely what the ruling powers fear that ordinary people might see the evidence.

[I like fruits]

Native russian speaker here - "avos" has somewhat different meaning - doing something hoping on luck. Even the Wikimedia article you reference says as much. Cheers.

[I like fruits]

And how much did that help to keep USSR together? Modern russia is a weak shadow of what USSR used to be. It is smaller, has less resources and brainpower, and it is much more rotten and corrupt.

[doublelayer]

Do they have to care? Yes, Russia is smaller than the USSR was, but it's still quite large and Putin is working on fixing that problem. In addition to trying to add territory from countries that tried to go away from them, Ukraine and Georgia, he has several countries which frequently go along with him, most famously Belarus. They have tons of resources, and even though it is a smaller amount than the USSR had, they are better at extracting and selling them. More rotten and corrupt? Debatable, but the people deciding what Russia is going to do are the people who are rotten and corrupt, so your sentence can be rephrased from their point of view as "more in our control and for our benefit", so they don't have a problem with that.

[I like fruits]

doublelayer, "rotten and corrupt" is the opposite of "more in control". A corrupt system is very inefficient. In fact, so much that Ukrainians call russian corruption their best ally.

[doublelayer]

From most points of view, you are absolutely correct. The average Russian citizen suffers from corruption. Their institutions suffer. Some of their larger projects, like the invasion, suffer. However, from the dictator's point of view, corruption that leads to them is what they want. A less corrupt system is one where Russia as a whole might be doing much better, but Putin would probably be doing not as well. From that point of view, that is control. Sure, it might mean that when he tells people to invade Ukraine, a lot of them die while not moving as quickly as they otherwise could, but in a non-corrupt system, they might not invade it at all and that would mean he has less power.

[Alan Brown]

Belarus is only with Russia because Litvenyenko called the Russian army in to prop him up after he lost the last election (in other words: A coup)

1/3 of the Belarusian army defected to support Ukraine when Russia invaded and it's believed that if he lets Belarus get directly involved, what's left of the army will remove him

Georgia appears to be taking steps to shake off Russia whilst its tied up with Ukraine, and independence movements are burgeoning in eastern/southern Oblasts

Russia of the 2030s may end up being the oblasts around the Moscow/St Petersberg/Vologda triangle

Russia losing its pacific coast will also end North Korea

[Jellied Eel]

Belarus is only with Russia because Litvenyenko called the Russian army in to prop him up after he lost the last election (in other words: A coup)

1/3 of the Belarusian army defected to support Ukraine when Russia invaded and it's believed that if he lets Belarus get directly involved, what's left of the army will remove him

I'd say 'citation needed', but won't hold my breath. I think you actually mean Lukashenko, who's been President of Belarus ever since they created the job. Much to the annoyance of the West. The last election it was Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya who claimed to have won, and there was no Russian army intervention. Lukashenko is quite capable of supressing dissent. But in the law of unitended consequences, our actions have, if anything strengthened Lukashenko's position. He knows full well that we're desperate to do the regime change thing and absorb Belarus into the EU & NATO.

Georgia appears to be taking steps to shake off Russia whilst its tied up with Ukraine, and independence movements are burgeoning in eastern/southern Oblasts

This would be the same Georgia that's just upset the West by implementing it's own version of the US FARA Act? And all those 'pro-democracy' groups now have to register and reveal their funding. Another one of those countries where the 'color revolutionaries' haven't had a great deal of success, if election results are anything to go by.

Of course they couldl follow the Ukrainian model (or Ukraine is following the Belarussian) model and not bother with elections. Just last week Zelensky banned another opposition party.

Russia of the 2030s may end up being the oblasts around the Moscow/St Petersberg/Vologda triangle

Russia losing its pacific coast will also end North Korea

And then you woke up. But this is why the West is busily killing Ukrainians and abusing it in a proxy conflict. Russia's economy was supposed to be in tatters by now, not growing stronger. The cunning plan to overthrow The Putin, and break up and asset strip the Russian Federation hasn't been going very well, has it? As usual with economic warfare and sanctions, it's just lead to Russia forging new alliances and growing closer to China, and even the DPRK. De-dollarisation is ongoing, and something like 54 countries are lined up to join BRICS.

[PeterM42]

Look back in history.....

.......to the Russain Revolution - 1905

[tmTM]

how do you hold to account

Keep funding Ukraine and ask them to have the SBU solve the issue.

They're more than happy to operate deep in Russian territory, turning things into smouldering wrecks.

[LogicGate]

Re: how do you hold to account

Seeing that the Ukrainians have proven quite capable of hitting targets well inside Russia; maybe someone could leave the coordinates of the Russian jamming transmitters somewhere unattended....

[I like fruits]

Re: how do you hold to account

Especially considering that SBU already hit some russian targets in the Baltic region. Just saying.

[Charlie Clark]

Re: how do you hold to account

Now that Finland and Sweden have joined NATO it's time to make formal complaints and indicate that continued disruption will not be ignored. The Baltic Sea is crucial to for both the Russian economy and military only now it's the NATO lake. Both countries are more than able of engaging in freedom of navigation / communication exercises. That the Katsaps don't expect things to escalate is evinced by them largely abandoning their bases along the Finnish border in Karelia, sending the troops for Compost Duty™ in Ukraine.

[I like fruits]

Re: how do you hold to account

Compost Duty - good one. Have not heard that one before.

[Charlie Clark]

The ITU is the body that manages it all, which is why the matter has been referred there. However, abuse is not a crime as such and there is no authority that enforce anything but states are free to seek redress or even retaliation.

As for why Russia is doing this? Mainly to see what systems it can interfere with and how much it can get away with. If the GPS bollocks over the Gulf of Finland continue I can imagine retaliation at some point, such as making it difficult to land safely in Königsrberg. I also think that Denmark's recent public announcement of possibly limiting Russian vessels through its waters might have something to do with this.

[Michael Strorm]

> I can imagine retaliation at some point, such as making it difficult to land safely in Königsrberg.

Bear in mind that Putin-era Russia has always been about (a) exploiting asymmetry, and (b) dragging everyone else down to *their* level. (*)

If the West were to use similar tactics against Russia or to do the same in response to state-sponsored hacking, it would run the risk of legitimising those as tactics, and playing into the hands of Russia which has far more to gain (and less to lose) if that were to become the case.

(*) Unlike the Soviet Union, which at least offered- or made the pretence of offering- a "better" alternative to Western capitalism, whatever you actually think about it. Putin's Russia has never bothered with that nor with pretending that they're *not* the squalid and corrupt mafia-esque state they actually are. It's *always* been about sowing doubt and discord and subverting confidence on Western democracy, showing that "our" leaders and systems of governance are supposedly no better than theirs.

[Jellied Eel]

As for why Russia is doing this? Mainly to see what systems it can interfere with and how much it can get away with. If the GPS bollocks over the Gulf of Finland continue I can imagine retaliation at some point, such as making it difficult to land safely in Königsrberg.

Don't you know there's a war on? There have been naval exercises and simulated nuclear attacks on Russian territory, plus strikes on Russia's Early Warning radar systems. Plus of course loud sabre rattling from one of NATO's strongest military members... Estonia. But there have been drone launches from inside and outside Russian territory, so it's not suprising Russia's taking active measures to disrupt those.

I also think that Denmark's recent public announcement of possibly limiting Russian vessels through its waters might have something to do with this.

Probably, but then that would be illegal, and Russia can do freedom of navigation patrols. Or Russia might see it as a blockade, which would also be illegal and give casus belli. If Denmark blockaded Russia on it's own initiative, it would also be the agressor, and NATO Article 5 wouldn't apply. Or it could be a brief conflict with Denmark's 16 ships, mostly frigates and patrol vessels vs Russia's Northern Fleet, air and missile forces.

[Casca]

And there is putins formost defender...

Why are you still living here? Time to move to russia who you love more than anything?

Nuclear attacks on russian territory? Maybe in your brain...

[Jellied Eel]

Why are you still living here? Time to move to russia who you love more than anything?

Not sure how you work that out, other than whenever people say anything critical of the West's "strategy", they're automatically labelled as Putin stooges, Russia lovers etc. But quite a lot of people are moving to Russia because they'd enjoy more freedoms than we do here in the West.

But another interesting event occured on Sunday-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6pppr719rlo

Russia has blamed the US and vowed "consequences" for a Ukrainian missile strike on Sevastopol in occupied Crimea on Sunday, which officials say killed four people - including two children.

Around 150 more were injured in the attack as missile debris fell on a beach nearby.

Russia's defence ministry said the missiles used by Ukraine were US-supplied ATACMS missiles, and claimed they were programmed by US specialists.

With the death toll apparently higher now. Because the intercept essentially turned into a cluster bomb strike on a Crimean beach, Russia is making use of it for propaganda. Ukraine's done the same when wreckage from their intercepts has resulted in casualties. All the missiles have to obey physics and will land somewhere, even if that's not the intended target. If missiles or drones are disrupted by jamming or spoofing, they're also going to land somewhere. For short-range stuff like Excalibur GPS guided artillery shells, that matters less because they're front-line weapons, for longer range missiles like ATACMS being yeeted into densley populated areas like Crimea, it might be more significant. So perhaps an area where the current laws of war need revising.

But the EU was strongly supportive of this-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions

Yet along with Stoltenberg, hasn't been very critical about the way Ukraine has fired cluster munitions into residential areas. Instead there's been heavy pressure to supply more. Even though supplying or encouraging their use may be in breach of the CCM.

Nuclear attacks on russian territory? Maybe in your brain...

Nope, from reality. Here's a couple of examples. One pre-SMO, one from a few weeks ago-

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2020/09/25/us-air-force-b-52s-just-flew-a-mock-bombing-run-on-russias-baltic-fortress/

Two U.S. Air Force B-52s just staged a mock attack run on Russia’s fortress territory in eastern Europe. The simulated raid on Kaliningrad was practice for a wartime campaign that would aim to stitch up a critical gap in one of NATO’s weakest regions.

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/usaf-b-52-bombers-baltics-near-russian-territory/

According to publicly available flight tracking data, at one point, the B-52s flew roughly a few dozen kilometers from Russian territory in Kaliningrad, a Russian exclave between Lithuania and Poland, and flew around the territory again on the way back to the U.K.

So more provocation. Also perhaps a bit pointless because a 'few dozen kilometers' would have put the slow flying B-52s well within the range of the S-400s and other air defences in Kaliningrad. But an increasingly risky thing to do given 'Ukraine's' attacks on Russia's nuclear early warning system, with another strike on a satellite uplink station at the weekend.

[Casca]

And there is another copy/paste wall of text. That doesnt make you look intelligent whatever you think.

Russia has staged mock attacks against Sweden multiple times so just fuck off with your pro russian posts. You are blind to what russia as been doing since the cold war stopped that is clear.

But hey at least you do your leader proud...

[Jellied Eel]

And there is another copy/paste wall of text. That doesnt make you look intelligent whatever you think.

Neither does trolling my posts, and yet you do. But speaking of leaders, why haven't you joined the glorious fight for 'democracy' and beaches free of 'occupiers'?

[Casca]

So, no response to russia doing attack runs against Sweden? Yea thought so. Its all about what west do against russia in your world...

Why would I move? I dont side with the dictators that you so much love.

And its pretty hard to ignore your moronic russian posts when the take up most of the screen.

You are the troll and you prove it in every article that is about russia

[martinusher]

>A perhaps more pertinent question is what the hell does Russia get by being the bad boy?

Russia has been the bad boy for literally hundreds of years to us in the West. (In fact Tsar Nicholas II was known in late Victorian times as "the bad boy of Europe".)(Before Kaiser Bill took over the invasion fears fed to the Daily Mail readers were "the Russians are coming".) The Russians really have tried to be European -- building a fine capital out of a swamp, importing art and culture on a scale that makes Hearst's efforts look amateurish etc. -- but its been to no avail. We just can't seem to leave them alone, we always seem to be invading them (its usually been Germany in recent years but the Crimean War wasn't that long ago and I still haven't found anyone who really understood what that was about or why the UK and France thought it worth their while). So 'give a dog a name' and eventually they'll just go "Oh sod it!" (fill in appropriate Russian expression) and just do their thing. They don't care what we think because nothing they do short of utter prostration to the West makes them acceptable.

The problem we've got these days is that a large chunk of the rest of the world is adopting the same attitude. Many countries, especially ex-colonies, are rethinking this whole "Western values" thing and there are more of them than there are of us.

[doublelayer]

Who would have thought it: when you're at war with a country, they tend to get a short stick in media. If you consider when they were an ally against Napoleonic France or Germany in the first world war, the stories will probably look a little different. There are people who understand the Crimean War, but if you're expecting me to say that there was a clear good and bad side, you'll be waiting a long time. That is not the same as saying it was all evil Western aggressors against innocent Russians, because it was more four countries wanting to control part of the map, none caring about the people in the middle. This doesn't change what they are doing today, and it's not about Russian people being bad guys who want to mess with us, but with dictators wanting to increase their power. There are lots of Russians who don't want this, but their government cares about them only as much as it takes to imprison them.

[Casca]

OH look, another vatnik who is blind to what russia been doing to destabilize europe since the wall fell...

[David Newall]

World war

It's depressing, but I've come to accept that we're in the first stage of war. Adversaries of freedom are attacking their neighbours, the leaders of freedom are trying to appease but are being dragged into overt action, which will escalate into full blown hostility.

Yes, I'm looking at you, Russia, but also North Korea, Palestine and Israel, and a slightly circumspect China who is eyeing Taiwan and a lot of the rest of SE Asia. Germany and USA are lurching to the right, NATO may fracture, a criminal will probably sit in the Whitehouse, and I despair at where it ends.

Nowhere good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: World war

Snowball risk.

The individual threats posted by Iran, North Korea, China/Taiwan (and others) can be considered manageable threats in isolation. However, if multiple were to go off together... At a time where armouries are already grossly depleted. Even with all of the forces at NATO disposal, that is an extremely challenging ask.

Every extra conflict on fire plays into planners thinking in exactly the same way. Japan's leaders thought Dec 1941 was the time to move, for fear of never being able to move at all. (After all, it was looking like the Soviets would fall - even with the stall outside Moscow).

A general war IS looming if we do not gear up adequate conventional deterrence.

[abend0c4]

Re: World war

On this Macaronesian rock, it's becoming increasingly common to hear this as a contributory factor to people's seeking residence.

Not sure how much it would improve their post-apocalyptic survival chances, but fear is already starting to influence behaviour.

[Lee D]

Re: World war

Putin feels he needs to make history before he dies, and that history will largely consist of lots of Russian people dying (which is part of the Russian presidential tradition).

Any such war will be very short-lived, no matter the outcome. Russia doesn't have the resources to take on a part of its former self, let alone the West.

It's been clear for a long time that all Russia really has is rhetoric. China are far more a threat but I can't see them actually stepping in and doing anything if it all kicks off, though I wouldn't put it past them to land-grab some prime Russian land if it's up for grabs when the dust settles, which could either help satisfy their desire for more space, or inflame them.

The Middle East - always been that way, never changed. It's news only when the Middle East isn't at war with itself.

North Korea isn't even on the map. They are no threat to anyone and if they choose the wrong side and decide to fight it would only end in some kind of liberation, to be honest. Again, they'd probably like to sneak over a border or two to the NE and get some prime Russian land if it's going begging.

To be honest, Russia is all hot air, and no different to normal, the Middle East is the Middle East and no different to normal, and unlike the Gulf War, the "war of terror", etc. there's not actually much happening *globally* at all at the moment. The West are mostly sitting back and staying out of it because there's nothing really worth getting involved in (and I feel sorry for Ukraine, but that's how it's perceived by the West, not that I agree with that).

I'm not at all sure Putin is as dumb as his own threats, his bark is worse than his bite or he'd have done more a long time ago. He doesn't have the resources to fight a war. He doesn't even have the generals, that's why the most feared battallions are basically mercenaries (who have actively spoke out against him).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: World war

China/Russia is certainly not beyond the wit of possibilities, despite current rhetoric. Far eastern Russia is heavy immigrated by Chinese workers and it really wouldn't take much for it to spill over into a land grab. The other "stans" are also very likely target lists for Russia. A big driver for Ukraine was perceived competition for Russian gas supplies. Those "stans" ARE already competition for Russgaz, and as such, have hit me written all over them. Russia might not directly challenge NATO but it can certainly challenge former Soviet satellites that are not nearly as well equipped as Ukraine - or anywhere near as re-inforcable.

I would not underestimate NK. Despite obsolescence, they have numbers, motivation, and favourable terrain that does a lot to negate technological advantages. Western experiences in the jungles of Korea and Vietnam are a wholly different business to European or Desert war where numbers and short engagement ranges trump most technology.

[Ken Shabby]

Re: World war

Jungles in Korea, it can get hot and humid in summer, but in winter, colder than a witch’s tit.

[Alan Brown]

Re: World war

"Far eastern Russia is heavy immigrated by Chinese workers"

Far eastern Russia was largely Chinese territory until the 1850s (The unequal treaties), much like large chunks of Southern/Western USA was largely Mexican territory until the 1850s

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: World war

All the more reason for it to be on the long march to annexation...

[alain williams]

Re: World war

The Middle East - always been that way, never changed. It's news only when the Middle East isn't at war with itself.

In other words: just ignore the current Israel/Palestine spat, it will end at some point and we can go back to pretending that it is not happening.

That, from what I read, was part of what led Hamas to its horrible attack on 7 October -- it knew that Israel would retaliate big time but that the world would see it happen. Previously the world had been able to overlook the 70 years war of attrition against the Palestinians.

See Amnesty International "The current forced displacement of almost 2 million Palestinians and mass destruction of civilian property and infrastructure in the occupied Gaza Strip puts a spotlight on Israel’s appalling record of displacing Palestinians and its ongoing refusal to respect their right to return for the last 76 years, said Amnesty International marking Nakba Day. The day commemorates the displacement of more than 800,000 Palestinians following the creation of the state of Israel in 1948."

I feel for the largely innocent civilians on both sides who are caught in a conflict between two terrorist organisations: Hamas & the government of Israel.

[I like fruits]

It's very easy to punish Russia

The greatest achievement of Putin's russia is of the West not willing to use it's own immense power even to defend their own self-interests.

Invading Ukraine russia got themselves a huge painpoint which it is easy for the West to exploit with trivial plausible deniability. "Accidentally" slipped coordinates of strategic russian installations, Putin's dacha going up in flames, leaked to the right Ukrainians satellite images of russian strategic subs parking lot, unauthorized use of long-range weaponry by a Ukrainian commander who of cause would be severely punished for overstepping their authority and demoted to a different part of the frontline, a newspaper publishing a report that Moskow is fed by a single gas pipeline with a detailed map of it and ending with "what a shame if something bad happens to that beautiful pipeline"... And this is just of top of my head.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: It's very easy to punish Russia

The greatest achievement of Putin's russia is of the West not willing to use it's own immense power even to defend their own self-interests.

It's our self-interests that have gotten us into this mess. Back in 2003, Georgia had a color revolution and a pro-Western government came into power. A proto-Zelensky, Saakashvili took power and started to strip South Ossetia and Abkhazia's autonomy. There were various violations of a '92 peace agreement, Saakashvili announcing Georgia would be joining NATO, Russia saying "Don't" and then in August 2008, Georgia 'invaded' S.Ossetia and took control of Tskhinvali. Russia intervened, and 14 days later Saakashvili was forced to capitulate and S.Ossetia & Abkhazia became independent from Georgia.

Fast forward a couple of years and Ukraine had it's own color revolution, hand-picked pro-Western government took power and started breaching '91 agreements, pivoting Ukraine towards the EU & NATO. Autonomy was removed, power consolidated in Kiev, and Russia went "Here we go again". A large number of Ukrainians weren't exactly keen on the new government/regime and it's policies, and a civil war began in 2014. Crimea declared independence and joined the Russian Federation in a fairly bloodless revolution, elsewhere it got very bloody. Like Odessa and the massacre in their Trade Union building.

Things got a lot bloodier with the DPR & LPR break-away regions, with a lot of heavy fighting, shelling & bombing and the UAF getting severely mauled. Cauldron entered the lexicon. So there were the Minsk ceasefire agreements that gave the UAF time to re-arm and rebuild. A comedian and pianist was elected on a platform of peace, who signed a decree ordering the re-occupation of the Rhine.. I mean Crimea, DPR and LPR. So Ukraine started to build up it's forces in preparation to re-take the break-away republics. Russia said "Don't", and commenced it's own force build up. Ukraine ignored the warnings and carried on, so Russia intervened forcing Ukraine to redeploy it's forces and Ukraine to the negotiating table in Instanbul. Where Russia offered a fairly reasonable deal, recognise Crimea, and DPR/LPR autonomy, neutrality and no NATO. So then the West intervened, that peace deal was rejected and the killing started again.

So our self-interests have lead to a lot of bloodshed and not much to show for it. Our immense power was supposed to have brought Russia to it's knees, leave it's economy in tatters and lead to the downfall of The Putin. Except that.. hasn't exactly gone to plan. 14 rounds of sanctions later, Russia is still going strong and the sanctions have backfired. As always happens with sanctions, it's forced Russia into new alliances. 54 countries are currently lining up to join BRICs.

.. a newspaper publishing a report that Moskow is fed by a single gas pipeline with a detailed map of it and ending with "what a shame if something bad happens to that beautiful pipeline"... And this is just of top of my head.

Not exactly original given what happened to Nord Stream. The biggest act of economic sabotage in Europe's history that's cost European nations billions. And we still don't know who did it. Or we do, but we're not saying because the answer would be.. awkward. Ukraine has also been yeeting drones in the general direction of Russia, shelling Russian villages, assassinating journalists and the occasional cross-border raid shooting up Russian towns and villages. These PR stunts have just resulted in more support for Putin and calls for Russia to take the gloves off. Which it has been doing by systematically eliminating Ukraine's energy infrastructure. Just as we did in the Balkans conflict. It's also been systematically eliminating the UAF, and introducing horrific new ways to do this with stuff like their FAB-3000 glide bombs.

And you're also assuming that if things escalate, Russia, or our other enemies couldn't start doing the same things. Pipelines you say? Well, there's always Cushing in Oklahoma. Oil's a bit crude though, and harder to encourage spontaneous combustion, so there's always Erath, Lousianna. Or there's the LNG import & export terminals in the US and Europe. Or power distribution networks and transformer sites. We have a lot of critical infrastructure that is rather vulnerable. Plus we have a lot of existing nutjobs. In the US and Europe, one of the biggest threat groups is not the "Far Right", but eco-terrorists, or "environmental activists" as they probably prefer to call themselves. Russia's already dropped heavy hints that if we continue to escalate, Russia will respond by supporting our enemies.. And Russia has plenty of captured Western weapons to arm those nutjobs. Plus to make life even more interesting, corrupt Ukrainians have also been selling that stuff.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: It's very easy to punish Russia

"Crimea declared independence and joined the Russian Federation in a fairly bloodless revolution"

Your words demonstrate where your words come from. We remember the "polite green men" showing up one day to make that 'revolution' happen.

As somebody pointed out above, you insult us.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: It's very easy to punish Russia

Your words demonstrate where your words come from. We remember the "polite green men" showing up one day to make that 'revolution' happen.

So how many people died in the Crimean part of the civil war? The meme is that Russia 'invaded' Crimea, which ignores the minor detail that there were a lot of Russian forces already there, on account of it being the Black Sea Fleet naval base. Of course evicting Russia from there and turning it into a NATO base was one of the objectives. It also ignores that Crimea was majority ethnic Russian, or identified as Russian. So the results of the referendum shouldn't have suprised anyone. Kiev, of course retaliated by cutting off Crimea's water supply.

But politics have always been Ukraine's problem, especially post-1991 where there had always been a clear and strong divide between East and West, pretty much split along the Dnipr river. That was shown clearly in every election Ukraine held since '91. Going further back to WW2, those in the East sided with Russia, those in the West with Hitler. Ukraine's long had a problem with it's nationalists who were heavily influenced by the works of people like Taras Shevchenko and others that lead to the OUN, Ukraine's red & black flag, and of course the 'slava Ukraine' thing. People who'd never dream of saying 'Heil Hitler' quite happily parrot the 'Slava Ukraine' thing, being blissfully unaware of the origins, or the attrocities committed.

As somebody pointed out above, you insult us.

Says the anonymong. Sorry if you find history and reality painful.

[Casca]

Re: It's very easy to punish Russia

You mean your and russias version of history. Which you vomit out on the forum any chance you get...

[Jim Whitaker]

Better to find out now when counter measures can be developed than on the outbreak of something more acute.