Battery electric vehicles lose their spark in Europe as hybrids steal the show

The market share of battery electric vehicles (BEVs) is declining in Europe while hybrid electric cars are proving more popular. According to figures from the European Automobile Manufacturers' Association (ACEA), BEVs accounted for 12.5 percent of the EU car market, a drop from 13.8 percent a year ago. Hybrid electrics, …

[abend0c4]

More than three-quarters preferred to charge their vehicles at home.

Except it seems that in reality, they don't charge them at all.

Hybrids ought to be the sweet spot at present: they have the capacity to cover most journeys on battery power alone and they're not overburdened with battery weight to compensate for range anxiety in the absence of a sufficiently-dense charging network. But it seems like the buyers find it easier to fill them up at the pump than remember to plug them in at night. In which case, they'd have done better to hang onto their old vehicle for a bit longer.

[cyberdemon]

Surely it's a lot cheaper to 'fill up' at a plug? So i'm kind of surprised.

But I think the issue is that you can't actually 'fill them' because the battery is so tiny on most hybrids compared to the petrol tank. So the cost doesn't really make much difference, because you can't charge up for a long trip on battery.

If the manufacturers were a little more daring, then they could halve the size of the tank and double (or more) the size of the battery. If the battery has a 150 mile range then it doesn't matter if the tank only has another 150. Stopping every 150 miles for 5 mins to fill a small tank wouldn't be an issue for someone making a long trip, whereas stopping for an hour to charge a battery is.

Also, series hybrids. If you're doing most of the driving on the battery, then you don't want to have the motor coupled to an engine. This also means the engine doesn't have to be coupled to the wheel speeds, so it can be smaller, higher speed, more efficient, and it doubles as an off-grid generator

[abend0c4]

The thing is, certainly in Europe, the battery is perfectly adequate for most journeys people make. The average British driver drives 18 miles per day. Of course, in reality, there will be a lot of shorter journeys and some that are much longer. It would indeed be far cheaper to do these journeys on electric power, so it's indeed a puzzle why people who've spent the additional money on their new vehicle don't take advantage of it.

It could be habit, it could be that people's garages are so full of stuff that there's no way to get the car close to the charger, it could be they're too lazy to go through the ritual of plugging in the car after every journey. Or it may be they simply don't have a charger at home - I know people who have bought hybrids but could only plug them in at public charging points and in practice never do.

However, car-buying has always defeated economic logic, so I suppose it's futile to look for it now.

[Doctor Syntax]

I think it's not so much economic logic as the need to satisfy multiple and perhaps conflicting individual requirements.

[abend0c4]

The thing about car purchase is that it's often at least as much about the message it conveys as the passengers it conveys. It's quite hard to break out the economic cost of meeting the "requirement" from the cost of meeting the "aspiration" - so changes to the technology may not have the weight that we might predict on a purely economic basis.

[Alan Brown]

90% of car buying decisions are driven by Ego, not logic

If it were otherwise, the roads would be full of Kei-sized vehicles

[heyrick]

"The thing is, certainly in Europe, the battery is perfectly adequate for most journeys people make. The average British driver drives 18 miles per day."

Britain has stuff closer together. I once walked from Ash to Aldershot to Fleet (on a warm sunny day).

Where I live now (rural France), it's 13km to the nearest town with a supermarket and post office, and I commute there daily. It's a little under 30km to the nearest town with a hypermarket and what passes for a shopping mall (not a mall but a lot of shops side by side). It's 40km when I need to get my car serviced. And if I need to go to the préfectoral town for administration reasons then.... I cheat and take the train in.

I'm about to take delivery of an electric voiture sans permis (a Playmobil car, Google it). The nice compact size only has a 60km range, so I went for a car larger than I need and more expensive in order to have an 80km range - so I could actually go places once in a while.

[Alan Brown]

"And if I need to go to the préfectoral town for administration reasons then.... I cheat and take the train in."

That's not cheating, it's a sensible use of time and resources (as well as probably being cheaper and faster once parking is factored in)

[MyffyW]

If you've not got scope for a home charger, then I completely understand why you steer clear of BEVs right now. The TCO argument does not yet work for you.

But lots of people could have one. And for the vast majority of those folk, a range of 400km would be just fine for pretty much every journey they ever do. Yes, even the summer trek down to Cornwall if you are possessed of just a modicum of advanced planning.

Hybrid whether plug-in or "self-charging" (a complete misnomer of a term - "100% fossil-fuel powered" would be better) are the Industry's way of transitioning, they are not a a necessary intermediate state for the consumer.

[navarac]

<<.....even the summer trek down to Cornwall....>>

Always assuming there are not 5 cars waiting for 4 slots, that they didn't get there "just" before you, and the large battery that "fuels" the chargers isn't flat itself. And YES, it has happened to a mate of mine last summer. EVs are not yet fit for purpose, mainly because they flogged them before the infrastructure was ready. Personally, I think hydrogen fuel is the way to go.

[Red Ted]

I think hydrogen fuel is the way to go.

Hydrogen is not the way to go...

At 1bar and 25 Celsius is has an almost negligible energy density (In the old school science experiment that produces a test tube full of hydrogen, when you put a match to it there is a pop and it's all gone. Imagine doing that to a test tube full of gasoline!).

So you have to get it up to several hundred bar to get the energy density up to anything useful, this required a big and heavy storage vessel.

Then your fuel stations need really reliably equipment for connecting a store of high pressure hydrogen to the tank in the vehicle.

There's the problem that hydrogen is such a small atom that it just permeates through the walls of the vessel and leaks away.

Finally, as fuel cells can't produce enough power, you have to burn the hydrogen in an internal combustion engine and that then generates all the NOx pollutants that you currently get.

[Alan Brown]

Re: I think hydrogen fuel is the way to go.

Apart from everything stated above, hydrogen fuel will end up costing a SHITLOAD more than electricity and in all liklihood a LOT more than petrol, even if the petrol is synthetically produced from the same source as the hydrogen

Fuel-cell hydrogen cars are best described as "Electric cars with even more disadvantages" - The extremely cramped passenger space of a Toyota Mirai makes old-school Jaguars look spacious (remember the Jaguar reverse-tardis effect?)

[Alan Brown]

"Personally, I think hydrogen fuel is the way to go."

Green hydrogen will cost AT LEAST twice as much per joule as electricity(*)

Green hydrogen for transportation fuel is likely to be 3-5 times more expensive than that thanks to the hideous costs of infrasturcture to support it

Is it still the way to go?

(*) Which is why "piped hydrogen" is an onanistic fantasy of the gas companies. Nobody will pay even more for gas heating than electricity

[Anonymous Coward]

And a large part of the population is part of a multi-vehicle household. You don't need multiple extreme long range vehicles. For many households, half the cars can be electric without range being an issue, as you take the old petrol one for long trips. My petrol car is now down to <4000km/year from ~17,000. The rest is now electric.

[Alan Brown]

> "But lots of people could have one"

"Could" being the operative word

If more than 1/4-1/3 of your street decide to setup home chargers, the local substation transformer and/or the cables under the street will melt down

Current infrastructure is built around the average home drawing 1kW. As soon as you have a bunch of them pulling 3-7kW, you're into overload territory

This isn't just a concern with electric cars. With gas/oil installations being stopped after 2035(*) that load would be even higher without an EV in sight

(*) It WAS going to be 2025 in Britain. That's just been delayed by a decade as the "Brazil"(**) like ramifications of exploding footpaths started impinging on political awareness

(**) The movie, not the country

[claimed]

Love that you assume people have garages. Majority of cars are street parked

[Anonymous Coward]

Garages

Or especially in the UK, that if a garage is present it's actually large enough to put a modern vehicle inside it, rather than being barely adequate for the original Austin Mini.

[MachDiamond]

"Love that you assume people have garages. Majority of cars are street parked"

If you don't have off-street parking, you likely aren't a good candidate for an EV. You don't HAVE to have a garage, just your own parking space where power can be provided. In bigger cities, the question is whether it's a good idea to own a car at all.

[John Robson]

In England in 2022 (data from the RAC):

10% parked in a garage overnight;

62% parked on private property (but not garaged);

25% parked on the street;

03% parked in other places.

So no - the majority of cars aren't street parked.

Again - the proportions will be wildly different in different areas of the country.

[andy gibson]

Was that data gathered from insurance companies?

I wonder how many have said garage or driveway parked overnight in order to get cheaper insurance?

[John Robson]

You suggesting that of the 75% of people who show up as off road that fully a third of them are lying to their insurance company?

I'd suggest that's a serious stretch - more even than the asserting that 50% of cars are parked on road.

[MachDiamond]

"I wonder how many have said garage or driveway parked overnight in order to get cheaper insurance?"

You could do that, but if they do a very simple check that shows you don't have off-street parking where you live and have said the car is garaged or parked on-property, no insurance for you. While you can get away with for a period if you don't have any claims, once you have a claim it's almost guaranteed they'll check. If the insurance is voided and you have a financed car, the finance company could come down on you as well.

[claimed]

Ok. The majority of cars are not parked in garages. Happy?

So we’ve got some error bar on the data, but whatever. My point is just that solutions need to work for all the users, not just the rich ones.

“Driveways” (drop curb and ass hanging out on to pavement included) might also not allow a decent solution for charging.

I also don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume a bit of truth stretching, if you’ve got two cars in the household and a one car drive. I’d bet good money both cars go down as “on a driveway” on the insurance.

[John Robson]

Garages aren't the be all and end all for charging.

Driveway, or other off street parking, charging isn't difficult.

And even if you have two vehicles and one space, that's still plenty for charging purposes - how often do *both* cars in a household do hundreds of miles on two consecutive days.

[EricB123]

2 MAJOR Problems

I think 2 major problems. First is charging if you don't own a house. Second is crashing resale value. Do most BEVs come with an 8 or more years battery warranty? Most petrol cars have a power train warranty about that long.

[UnknownUnknown]

Re: 2 MAJOR Problems

Really depends where you are ….

But I. General not- you maybe mistaking Samsung and Washing Machine motors - LOl

For UK

BMW 3 Yr unlimited mileage warranty

Mercedes 3 yr warranty

JLR 3Yr warranty

Audi 3 years

Porsche 3 year warranty

So much for premium marquee and faith in their higher qualit/priced product and CSat.(most is terrible).

Honda 3 yr warranty

Toyota 3 years but if you service it with them +10L miles each time

Nissan 3 years, 5 years Powertrain

Suzuki 3 years (5 if you service plan it)

Subaru 3 years

Hyundai 5 years unlimited mileage

Kia 7 years, 100K miles

MG 7 80K miles

Peugeot 2 years unlimited mileage, 3 years 60 K miles

BYD 8 years 93-125K miles

….

Kinda why I drive a Kia. I do see there is a 10 Year KIA Powertrain warranry in USA, with a more limited rest of car warranty… though same as UK on 100K mile limit

[MachDiamond]

Re: 2 MAJOR Problems

"Second is crashing resale value. "

That's a big downside to buying new. I'm the sort of person to buy second hand and run the wheels off. Once the cost of repairs gets to a certain point, that's when I find something else.

[John Robson]

Re: 2 MAJOR Problems

It's also contrary to the argument that usually comes along with it... That second hand EVs are too expensive.

[Alan Brown]

Re: 2 MAJOR Problems

Yes, most BEVs do come with 8-11 year powertrain/battery warranties

Eg: Leaf: 8 years, 100,000 miles

[John Robson]

Re: 2 MAJOR Problems

Battery warrantly tends to exceed ICE warranty.

And you don't need to own the house necessarily - you just need to be allowed to install a circuit for a charger (or indeed to put an extension cable out of a window)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: 2 MAJOR Problems

does that warranty cover damage at all?

if not it's pretty much worthless

[John Robson]

Re: 2 MAJOR Problems

Warranties don't cover damage, they cover normal usage.

Does your ICE warranty cover you if you drive off a cliff? Probably not.

If you want damage to be covered you want insurance.

[MachDiamond]

Re: 2 MAJOR Problems

"(or indeed to put an extension cable out of a window)"

yeah, that's going to attract unwanted attention from The Man. You could get away with that if a visitor has an EV and you need to fill them up, but not as a long term solution.

[John Robson]

Re: 2 MAJOR Problems

"The Man"

Why do you think that your conspiracy theory affects extension cables?

[MachDiamond]

Re: 2 MAJOR Problems

"First is charging if you don't own a house."

Alec at Technology Connections was able to get the landlord to allow installation of a charging point in underground parking before he purchased a home (I think he owns where he lives now). While the property owner may not want to foot the bill, they might be happy to have a charging point fitted as long as it's all up to code with approvals and permits. It doesn't add a load of value to a property, but as time goes on, it will be expected.

[munnoch]

It’s odd that BEV zealots quote the statistics on short daily journeys as a mitigation for crap charging infrastructure or the impending met down of the electricity grid. It’s ok you don’t need to charge because you won’t be going very far. Why then are you dragging around 2 tonnes of toxic chemicals produced in the most atrocious conditions?

It’s absolutely the sweet spot for PHEV’s. Most journeys are on electric power from the wall socket and you still have the option to do the odd cross country trip on petrol if needed.

Since I got my Outlander PHEV my petrol usage is probably a third of what it was and about half of my miles are powered from the wall socket. That’s a pretty significant step change in behaviour.

If a sizeable part of the population could replicate that then we’d be well on the way to meeting our emissions targets without having to strip mine South American and Africa for precious metals and transfer even more wealth to hostile regimes.

[John Robson]

So you've got all the complexity of an infernal combustion engine, but now with stale fuel.

Nope, I'd far rather have a decent BEV - I might need to have a volt and bolt twice a year, maybe four times?

And you're rather out of date in terms of mining, or you're just completely ignoring the mining and wealth transfer associated with getting petrol to your vehicle - as well as the toxic chemicals you're releasing into your own neighbourhood.

[MachDiamond]

"Why then are you dragging around 2 tonnes of toxic chemicals produced in the most atrocious conditions?"

Compared to the petroleum industry and oil dripping all over the place from vehicles, the BEV vehicles are "white-glove" clean.

EV's aren't using "precious" metals that are strip mined from South America and Africa. There are some less commonly used metals being used in batteries and that's leading to opportunities in places that don't have mature economies. If those places are smart, they'll move up the supply chain from ores to refined or semi-refined materials and on to fabricated parts. The vast amount of materials used in automobiles are the same no matter what the power plant uses to make the car go. With good planning, the batteries in EV's will have the possibility that most of them can be recycled to recover the higher cost materials. All of the petrol/diesel used in an ICE will have gone up in smoke and there will many more kilos of it over the lifetime of the car that's consumed fully and finally.

[Lusty]

“The average British driver drives 18 miles per day”

Indeed. Electric scooters would solve the problem for the majority of the population but evidently we’re not looking at solutions where vast sums of money can’t be made so instead we banned them and got the police to steal them from kids as a deterrent to this outrageous planet friendly behaviour.

[Missing Semicolon]

Cheaper at the plug

It would be, if the price of electricity wasn't also going sky-high.

I keep my Outlander charged as, indeed, most of my journeys are less than 24 miles round trip. Not having to pop in to a petrol station most of the time is kind of handy - and city driving will always be more efficient with electric propulsion, as the start-stop really eats the dead dinosaurs[1].

The big fix would be to break the electric/IC performance link. If you did not expect the same performance on petrol, the engine could be smaller and more efficient. The price you would pay is that, say the maximum speed on petrol might be 56mph.

[1] yes, I know, it's sea-creatures really.

[Charlie Clark]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

Turn the petrol engine into a generator as Nissan has started to do: problem solved.

[MyffyW]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

James May on Top Gear beat them to it with his "Diesel-Electric". IIRC it stank, both as an idea and quite literally, as the diesel fumes migrated into his cabin.

Nissan really ought to know better.

[Charlie Clark]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

There's no difference really to a normal car, but instead of a drivetrain, the engine charges the battery. Done correctly, this could siginificantly reduce the complexity and hence cost. It also dissociates fuel source from the powertrain which could make the whole thing much more modular: swap from an engine to a turbine to a fuel cell; replace the battery with something better, etc. No idea whether we'll see this but it's the first time in a long while that the economics align with efficiency.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

It's been done already, in production, but for whatever reason, the idea didn't take off. It was what in the UK and EU was known as "range extender", ie fully BEV with a generator where the ICE would be and in my early naivety on EVs was what I thought would be a "hybrid", ie the equivalent of a diesel electric locomotive in a the size and shape of a car. It feels like it would be the most efficient form of hybrid in that the petrol engine can run at it's most efficient speed/load only when the battery needs some charge. There were probably very good reasons they stopped building them, but that was a few years ago now and technology has changed and improved since then. Maybe the issue was battery charge cycles and lots of small charging was bad for the batteries?

[Alan Brown]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

The original (Japan-only) Prius was as you describe.

People hated it

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

because it was crap.

see BMW garbage i3 range extender

[MachDiamond]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

" There were probably very good reasons they stopped building them, but that was a few years ago now and technology has changed and improved since then."

Many people won't understand the concept of a "range extender" since at some point, the car would run out of battery if somebody didn't stop on a trip at highway speeds. What has to be pointed out is that people are most likely going to stop for "reasons" and 4-5 hours of continuous drive time can be more than fine. Perhaps less. It would be good to put more smarts into those cars so the car is letting the driver know where would it would be good to stop for a fill up and charge up. If performance data from the car can be captured and used in an off-line planning app, there would be few surprises on a long trip.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

It is cheaper at the plug IF you are on an EV specific leccy tariff.

I used to charge my Outlander at ZERO cost on days like today when the sun is shining and I can direct the output from my solar panels to the car.

Even now, I use the granny charger on my EV-6. It does not add much range in a day but they are all free miles.

Would I go back to pure ICE? Never

Would I go back to a PHEV? Never.

I took the EV-6 to the very top of Norway last summer with zero charging problems. This year, I'm going to Northern Portugal in it.

[Alan Brown]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

"It is cheaper at the plug IF you are on an EV specific leccy tariff."

Even if you're paying the same as petrol, EVs are cheaper for the simple reason that the only servicing required per 100,000 miles is to change the cabin pollen filters and check brake pads.

At 10 years you'll need to flush brake lines and change the differential oil, but that's about it

In most cases the limiting factor is turning out to be chassis longevity

[John Robson]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

petrol is ~145p at the moment, or £6.80 for ~40 miles (Both cost and mileage are UK averages)

40 miles is ~10kWh, so you only need to have a tariff at 68p for it to be cheaper - that's more than twice the current cap, and just shy of ten times the best EV tariff.

[munnoch]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

Absolutely, the biggest fix would be for everyone to stop feeling that they are entitled to drive everywhere in behemoths of vehicles with every single mod con built into them. Or the requirement to shoot away from the traffic lights like a Saturn 5.

Imagine the economy of a car the size and weight of a 1970’s family car, most well under a ton, powered by a modern dinky super efficient IC engine. It’d be hundreds of miles to the gallon.

[Piro]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

Yup. Heavy evs are generating a lot of tyre particulates.

[John Robson]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

No they're not... because if they did then they'd run through tyres faster, and they don't (assuming you drive neither like a complete twat)

[John Robson]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

And an EV built the same would still be many times more efficient

[Alan Brown]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

> [1] yes, I know, it's sea-creatures really.

Algae. Mostly laid down during the Permian Extinction event's "red tides on steroids"

Interestingly, most large Natural Gas beds are underlain by coal, not oil

[MachDiamond]

Re: Cheaper at the plug

"If you did not expect the same performance on petrol, the engine could be smaller and more efficient."

That's why a hybrid can be so much more efficient. With a battery that's good for ~40miles of highway driving, the engine would only need to start up periodically and run at an optimum RPM and load to recharge the battery and then shut off again. For city driving, there can be a setting to go deeper into the battery before starting the engine and not charging as much since the expectation would be the car would be plugged in once it got back home. If trips are entered into the SatNav, the car might be able to make better estimates.

[Denarius]

Nope

Nyet comrade to "Stopping every 150 miles for 5 mins to fill a small tank ". May well be true in small places like the patchwork of EU, but not true in real countries. What if there is no fuel or charging station ? Or worse, with the rise of unreliable electricity supplies, batteries at home are needed for essential services, like warm water or cooking ?. In Oz and other long highway places a range of 400 km to cater for winddrag of trailer or roof mounted cargo, is essential. At airfield in rural area only 100 km of national crapital, I have seen too many EVs, nipping into a nearby town to top up. Petrol and diesel vehicles just do 700 km between fills at a stretch. I suspect the market researchers are close in the distribution of battery and fuel capacities. By running the fuel engine at one speed improvements to efficiency, simplicity and emissions can be done easily, so IMHO, hybrids are probably the optimal way to go until a better technology comes along. Until I see full lifecycle costing, including disposal ,EVs are just another environmental disaster. Flame away

[cyberdemon]

Re: Nope

Then bring an extra jerry-can for your hybrid and you can make it all the way to das krapital.

That was my point - you can fill up a hybrid but you can't just "fill up" an EV. But there should be a sweet-spot for plug-in hybrids where while you are in town you don't use the petrol engine at all - until you need to make a long journey, or if the krappy power grid fails.

That said, I do tend to agree about the environmental impact of EVs, i.e. wtf is the world going to look like if there were as many EVs as there currently are petrol/diesel cars, and how do we go about recycling them..

[Alan Brown]

Re: Nope

> That was my point - you can fill up a hybrid but you can't just "fill up" an EV.

Do you NEED to drive that ultra long distance? Is it easier/cheaper/faster to take a train/plane and hire a car at the other end for those trips you take 1-2 times per year?

If you really do need to drive that distance, it's still usually vastly cheaper to use an EV 364 days of the year and hire a larger/longer-range vehicle for your trip. Hertz/Avis/Enterprise/Rent-a-dent are all still in business

[Alan Brown]

Re: Nope

"wtf is the world going to look like if there were as many EVs as there currently are petrol/diesel cars, and how do we go about recycling them.."

Batteries see long second lives in stationary applications. They're considered "spent" in automotive use at about 75% which is still a lot of life left

LiIon batteries themselves are 90-95% recyclable. Recycling (and reusing "spent" automotive packs) is one of the core design functions of Saint Elon's "gigafactories"

[MachDiamond]

Re: Nope

AC Propulsion converted some Scion XB vans to full electric and also made a hybrid trail to go with them. The trailer had a 1100cc motorcycle engine driven generator and it also had space for luggage and stuff. When you didn't need the added range, you'd leave off the trailer. When you had a long haul, you hook up the trailer and plug it in. The van's system was built to be able to accept the en-route charging which isn't something that mainstream EV's will do. If there were a standard for that sort of thing, people could rent the trailer from a dealer when needed if it didn't make sense to own one themselves. For someplace like Australia, that might be an even better option than a petrol car with jerry cans in the boot.

If you want to kill your efficiency, put a roof rack on the car. For daily waste, leave on the cross rails.

[Alan Brown]

Re: Nope

YOUR situation is 3-5% of cars

90-95% of vehicles are resident in (sub)urban areas, not sparsely populated outback areas

If an EV doesn't suit your requirement then don't buy one, but ranting on about everyone else shouldn't buy because of YOUR requirements is just assholery in action

[MachDiamond]

"Stopping every 150 miles for 5 mins to fill a small tank wouldn't be an issue for someone making a long trip, whereas stopping for an hour to charge a battery is."

Why would you stop for a hour to charge a battery with 150 miles of range? There are BEV's out that can charge from 10-80% in under 20 minutes. If you take lots of long drives, it would be better to choose an appropriate EV. I rarely go further than 200 miles in a single day, non-stop, so something that charges as slow as a Chevy Bolt (55kW max) isn't a big deal.

What I've seen in the US is EV's are very expensive as companies figure they'll introduce a top end model and maybe follow up with something more price conscious later. The price differential is so high that it can pay for 4+ years of petrol for new models. That also means the number on the finance contract will be lower with the petrol car so there's less interest, less cost to insure the car and less to register each year. The petrol is also "pay as you go". I'd like an EV, but the numbers have to work first. I'll give a nod to an EV's higher price as the convenience of charging at home is worth a bunch, but not too much.

[AW-S]

"But it seems like the buyers find it easier to fill them up at the pump than remember to plug them in at night"

Plug them in where at night? For a very large number of people they have no driveway and no on-street charging point anywhere near their property.

[Henry Hallan]

This. This here.

If our lords and masters want EV adoption, they need to provide cheap AC charging in the places where people park overnight.

Overnight AC charging is better for the grid (low demand, at a time when there is surplus capacity) better for the batteries (because slow) and cheaper (because AC chargers are cheap and don't require enormous infrastructure.)

All this idea of more and faster DC chargers is distraction. EVs should be charged while their owners sleep and the grid is idle.

I have owned an EV for years, but I wouldn't own one if I couldn't plug in overnight.

[blackcat]

One major issue for EV adoption is that the second hand market is crap. The good EVs are commanding high prices and the low priced EVs are junk as either the batteries are kaput (leaf) or they have other major issues.

I've never owned a new car, never owned a lease car and don't want to do either. Let someone else pay for the depreciation and early life failures.

[MachDiamond]

"and the low priced EVs are junk"

It comes down to needs. I was up for a job that was 20 miles from my driveway to the car park at the job. I was looking into a used Leaf as even with some wear on the battery, it would save me loads since there was charging at the job location and no problem to charge at home. I wasn't going to get rid of my ICEV so the limited range of the Leaf was no big deal. An older Leaf would be cheap to buy (outright), cheap to insure and cost next to nothing to run (if I could do the lion share of charging at work). I didn't get the job as it was given to a relative of some higher-up in the company much to the dismay of the supervisor since the new lady didn't have the same aircraft experience so while she could over the paperwork, she couldn't assist repairing the planes or do traffic.

[MachDiamond]

"cheaper (because AC chargers are cheap and don't require enormous infrastructure.)"

For AC charging, EV's have the bits built in. The box on the wall is a safety monitor and also tells the car what the service is capable of providing.

[John Brown (no body)]

"If our lords and masters want EV adoption, they need to provide cheap AC charging in the places where people park overnight."

Additionally, public charging points are buying, and therefore selling, at commercial rates, generally higher than domestic rates. Commercial electrify supplies attract the full 20% VAT whereas residential electricity its taxed at 5% VAT. Cutting the VAT rate at public charging points would make the switch more attractive to more people. I'd imagine the Government would rather everyone pays the public charging VAT rate of 20% than allow a small number of commercial vehicles to have cheap electricity though.

It's one of those easy solutions that will almost certainly never be implemented. After all, when you plug into a public "smart" charger, the car and the charger "talk" to each other. It should not be beyond the wit of man (or woman) to adjust the tax bracket based on the vehicle ID (yeah, some people will "hack" their vehicle, but then some people already buy knocked off fuel or red diesel. There are and always will be people trying to beat the system.

Oh yes, *all* public chargers should work with credit/debit cards, Apple/Android pay etc, none of these "closed shop" apps where you need a different app for every network operator!

[MachDiamond]

"Commercial electrify supplies attract the full 20% VAT whereas residential electricity its taxed at 5% VAT. Cutting the VAT rate at public charging points would make the switch more attractive to more people. "

I see a lot of the government getting in the way of wider EV adoption through these sorts of issues. In the US, getting the approvals and permits for a charging station (and the lines to bring in the power) is hampered by local politics. While the Lords in Washington DC survey the promised land from the top of a high mountain, the Sheriffs down in the plains are lashing the serfs.

[Alan Brown]

The new rort is for "single card" access to cost 50-80% more than the individual network apps (Looking at you, Octopus!)

[John Robson]

My Electroverse card gets me a 5% discount on whatever the published rate for the network I use.

Additionally it also gets plunge pricing with steep discounts when the wholesale price is low.

[John Robson]

Many fewer than you might think, though they are obviously likely to be concentrated in specific areas, so your local proportion may well be higher than the national average.

But home isn't the only place that you leave the car for long periods:

- Work

- Gym

- Supermarket

- Shops

- Town centre (yeah, I know)

- Cinema/theatre

- I'm sure there are many more

To get 18 miles of range each day you need to add less than 5Wh, which is half an hour of a three phase charger (assuming your car has the appropriate inverter), or 42 minutes at a single phase charger.

You don't need a full battery every day, and you don't need to top up to full every time.

The most important infrastructure is pretty easy to deploy - AC chargers are basically a relay controlled by a couple of safety monitors - there is also some communication regarding the max current available. The massively reduced cost of installation should also feed into substantially reduced cost to charge.

The number of times a year when most people would need a DC charger is very small.

We need to be encouraging workplaces, and car park owners of all strips, to be installing banks of AC chargers. Far more important than the DC infrastructure (which is still needed on/near trunk roads).

[Anonymous Coward]

It really depends on where you live. European cities are crowded, to a point an US American can't imagine. You can't even really park most of the time, often street dimensions are inherited from times way before cars were invented.

As for home charging, the upper middle classes might have nice individual houses with garages and driveways, but the peons are stuffed in hutches and park on some side street, not necessarily very near their homes. Now the problem is, there are over 100 peons to each suburban McMansion dweller, and those can't really charge an EV even if it was given to them. Next time you order a pizza, ask the delivery person if his job provides a changing facility for his personal EV.

[John Robson]

"Now the problem is, there are over 100 peons to each suburban McMansion dweller,"

Simply not true.

In the UK the RAC estimate that 65 percent of households have, or could have, off street parking.

A little over 20% of households have no car at all - and whilst the correlation won't be perfect, I imagine it will be stronger than random.

That's a very long way from 100:1

As I said - it will vary by location, but the densest locations (london) also have the lowest car ownership (because they're not needed)

And of course the whole point is not to rely purely on being at home... There are other places where you spend time, and should be able to charge.

[SundogUK]

That RAC estimate is bullshit. Where did you get it from?

[John Robson]

Well, this may surprise you, but from the RAC...

Other similar research (from Lloyds) gives similar figures, though they aren't looking at the "or could have" figures.

If you have a better source of information on the tens of millions of UK households then do share it.

[MachDiamond]

"As I said - it will vary by location, but the densest locations (london) also have the lowest car ownership (because they're not needed)"

Very big cities aren't conducive to car ownership in the first place so the lack of off-street parking with charging options doesn't come into it. There are places I used to visit such as Prague where I would never think to hire a car as the public transportation is more than adequate to get around. In the UK, I won't hire a car if I'm staying in London, but I'll get one if I'm going elsewhere where I'll just be ambling about playing tourist. If I'm at some friend's house in Wales, there's always a car I can borrow as needed. Since I hand it back with more petrol than was in, they are quite happy to lend me the car.

[MachDiamond]

"But home isn't the only place that you leave the car for long periods:"

You left out Government offices where people are required to go and stand in queues for hours at a time to get some piece of paper stamped.

[John Robson]

I think that comes under "- I'm sure there are many more"

[heyrick]

Heh, yeah. My salesperson said that I was not to plug the car into an extension lead.

So we went walkies around the house and I offered him a choice. A dedicated extension lead plugged into where I would otherwise plug the washing machine, or he can figure out how to charge the car from 380V three phase (old sockets, no neutral).

Suddenly "extension lead is fine".

But, yup, I fully agree with the sentiment that for many being able to charge it is the primary impediment, and something that ought to be addressed sooner rather than later.

[John Robson]

An appropriate extension cable is fine - but you do actually have to have a decent cable, with a decent plug and socket.

And I'd still recommend not exceeding 10A.

And absolutely do not have it coiled up...

[heyrick]

Thanks. It'll be a standard 16A cable good for 3500W (more or less), I think my dinky car's charger is something like 700W?

It's about eight metres from the socket to where the car would be, so a ten metre extension will cater for that and allow me to sling it out the little window in the toilet rather than leaving the back door open. Attached to the back is a hangar that once housed two tractors and a combine. Not mine, sadly, but as you can understand there's plenty of space sheltered from most of the usual weather occurrences.

Hmm, maybe I ought to get a longer (15m?) cord with a waterproof cap like the garden ones, I can then run that up along a roof joist and dangle it in the right place? That's an idea too...

[blackcat]

PHEVs got a lot of tax breaks when leased as a company car so this made them very attractive especially in the public sector. A couple of years back I saw an article, might have been el reg, where a load of ex civil service PHEVs came up for auction with the charging cables sealed in the original delivery bag.

[MachDiamond]

"where a load of ex civil service PHEVs came up for auction with the charging cables sealed in the original delivery bag."

One might expect that petrol was paid for as well so people weren't going to bother to plug in since the leccy isn't reimbursed.

[neilg]

Don't bother commenting

Original poster was just sneaking in a link to some shitty subscription crap

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: Don't bother commenting

Didn't ask me for a subscription, the article was readable without it.

[abend0c4]

Re: Don't bother commenting

Nor me when I first tried, though it seems to have sprung up now - possibly because it's suddenly being hit with traffic...

The original article I read was in The Guardian which has most of the same information but focuses on the cost.

[neilg]

Re: Don't bother commenting

Works fine now, apologies.

[Phil O'Sophical]

I have a PHEV and do quite a few local journeys, for shopping etc., and in most cases I can complete them within the battery range, occasionally seeing it switch to battery a mile or two from home. I always plug it in at home, but never in a public point since that's more expensive than using petrol. I'd say that over the couple of years I've had it I have covered maybe 20% of total mileage on electricity.

Considering the purchase price it will certainly never pay for itself in fuel savings, but that's not why I bought it.

[VicMortimer]

I bought my PHEV 8 years ago for $10k. It has more than paid for itself in fuel savings. Given the IRS business mileage rate and actual operating cost per mile, I'm coming out WAY ahead.

I mostly plug in at home, but sometimes at public chargers, because lots of them around here are free. All the chargers in city parking lots and garages are free, the ones at grocery stores are free.

My next car will be a BEV. I'm just waiting on the price of good used ones to come down.

[Anonymous Coward]

All the chargers in city parking lots and garages are free, the ones at grocery stores are free.

It was like that in the UK at the start, until the owners of the parking lots and stores realised how much it was costing them, for no significant gains in customer numbers. Now they all require payment, often for the parking and the electricity.

[Crypto Monad]

My next car will be a BEV. I'm just waiting on the price of good used ones to come down.

These are interesting times.

* Citroën are about to start selling the e-C3 at £22,000

* Other brands are responding in kind by reducing the prices of their base spec models. e.g. the Vauxhall Corsa-e "Yes", which was previously introduced as a low-cost entry model and has a list price of £26,895, is now on sale at dealers for £22,500 brand new

* As a knock-on, you can now pick up a pre-reg delivery-mileage Corsa-e or Peugeot e-208 (73 or 24 reg) for around £16,500, or the cooler but less practical Fiat 500e for £19,000

The madness is that this is the same company competing with itself. Citroën, Peugeot, Fiat and Vauxhall are all brands of Stellantis.

[Binraider]

EV at that price point, assuming they are maintainable cars, are exactly what are needed to break the small petrol car market.

Ford ditched the Fiesta for a reason… they saw this coming.

I still find it quite insane that the default for even 1m journeys is to hop in a car; but persuading people out of them over short distances seems to be a losing game.

[MachDiamond]

"I still find it quite insane that the default for even 1m journeys is to hop in a car;"

It got up to 38C yesterday. I'd hop in the car to visit the mailbox. I also needed to go down the road to meet a customer which wouldn't have been great if I arrived drenched in sweat from a bicycle ride. Not that at my age it would be a good idea to bike 2mi each way in the heat. While out, I stopped at the post office and the market to combine my trips.

The concept of walking or riding a bike is great up to a point. If you need to bring home refrigerated or frozen foods, there could be an issue. When you are younger and in better health, the exercise is good and tolerance to the weather is greater. It's also not great when you come out of a shop and find your bike has been nicked. In parts of the US, they don't even consider it a crime anymore, just a "shame".

[John Robson]

2 miles shouldn't leave you sweating... you dont' have to go hell for leather.

At 38 degrees I'd be sweating just from walking out of the door, so a gentle bike ride would make minimal difference (in fact the breeze might be nice).

[MachDiamond]

"At 38 degrees I'd be sweating just from walking out of the door, so a gentle bike ride would make minimal difference (in fact the breeze might be nice)."

It's supposed to be over 40 today. Come on over and I'll lend you my bike.

[John Robson]

"Come on over and I'll lend you my bike."

I'll bring my own - disability means I need a trike.

I'll be out in the sun later, though I'll probably put the hood on, I'll also be doing ten miles at "hell for leather" because I can, and I enjoy it.

But the difference in sweat between walking out of the door and cycling gently in that heat isn't significant (yes I've been cycling in that sort of weather in Texas, and at negative 9 in Finland). I'm more concerned about the humidity than the temperature at either extreme (drier is better in both cases).

[Anonymous Coward]

and they are all crap!

same base different dress

[Charlie Clark]

PHEVs are a money pit for taxpayers. The German car industry lobbied for them so that could meet, theoretically at least, emissions targets for their fleet. Generous tax incentives saw them being sold as company cars until the plug (sic) was pulled on that scheme. And those owners who can't charge at home or in the office, won't pay to charge because it's cheaper to burn fuel.

Technically, it's a bad idea to have to fuel systems and two engines as this increases weight, complexity and cost for little marginal utility. Petrol as fuel but with electric motors, now you're talking.

[Patrician]

Not all hybrids are battery hybrids though.

[VicMortimer]

No, the sweet spot is batteries without an engine. Having to maintain two drivetrains is not ideal.

I've currently got a PHEV, my next car will be a BEV. I'm just waiting on the price of good used ones to come down, I don't buy new cars.

Range is incredibly important, it's not about "anxiety" it's about not having to stop every few hours to charge. I'm not in Europe, and a typical road trip here is roughly the equivalent of going from one end of Britain to the other.

I absolutely do charge my PHEV, it gets plugged in any time it's in my driveway, it gets plugged in whenever I'm in a public parking lot with free chargers. But I'd much rather only charge and never have to put gas in again.

[AndrueC]

No, the sweet spot is batteries without an engine. Having to maintain two drivetrains is not ideal.

Toyota's HSD only has a single drive train.

It's two electric motors/generators, the ICE and a planetary gear set (similar to a differential). Mechanically it's simpler than a conventional ICE since there is no gearbox and no clutch. There's also no starter motor or alternator.

[John Robson]

Whilst it has reduced complexity, it's still far from the one moving part of an electric motor.

[MachDiamond]

"Range is incredibly important, it's not about "anxiety" it's about not having to stop every few hours to charge. I'm not in Europe, and a typical road trip here is roughly the equivalent of going from one end of Britain to the other."

I'm in the US and planning on an 1,100 mile trip to visit a friend in few months. I did a pro-forma plan with an EV and my ICEV and the drive time is nearly the same. With a BEV, the route isn't as flexible but the time spent charging didn't make a whole lot of difference. It's a two day trip each way no matter what and I plan to make some stops along the way. There is a train that is close, but it's hours longer, far more expensive and arrives/departs near my friend at 2am (ish, this is Amtrak so late is usual). I would rather go by train and stop somewhere along the route overnight to play tourist, but that isn't an option given the schedule.

You young whippersnappers don't realize there becomes a need to stop more frequently as one gets older. Having good charging infrastructure along major highways and some minor ones is key. The route I will be taking is one I haven't done before that I'm aware of. There are lots of roads I might have been on years ago when I was a roadie, but I would have been asleep and had no vote on where/when to have a stop (I was quite the lowest person on the totem pole).

[brett_x]

The article is generalizing and talking about Hybrids, and not Plug-In Hybrids that you and the linked article are referring to. You don't plug in regular hybrids.

[MachDiamond]

"You don't plug in regular hybrids."

If there is to be hybrids, a small pure electric range is a good idea. Yesterday I drove 5mi to meet with a customer, go to the post office and pick up some food at the local market. Being able to replace that range by plugging in will be cheaper than running an ICE on petrol to replace the power used. It's also one less cycle on the engine.

[Alan Brown]

PHEVs were getting the same kind of tax breaks in the UK as BEVs were for business vehicle provision until the point above became obvious to everyone involved

They still receive tax breaks in Germany, which is most likely why there's been an uptick in sales there

[Pascal Monett]

EV

Interesting to note that absolutely nothing is mentioned about how "green" EV's might actually not be.

I mean, if solar panels are starting to look a tad more grey than green, then what chance do EVs have outside of the political rhetoric of some biased idiots who want to see us all live in caves ?

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: EV

Overnight charging wouldn't rely on solar.

[MachDiamond]

Re: EV

"Overnight charging wouldn't rely on solar."

It could if you have a battery to store solar power during the day. I've not found that to work out economically, but if rates and the price of petrol keeps going up, at some point the numbers will work out. I need to put the price of Panasonic's Evervolt battery into my spreadsheet. At some point when used EV packs are more available, it might not be as unusual to have a 40kWh home battery that started life as a 60kWh battery in an EV. A local seller is flogging off 24v 5kW Tesla battery modules for under $400. They are a box of 18650 cells and I expect some of the cells have blown their fuses, but the price is right. It's not sofa change, but power does go out from time to time where I live so a bit of back up can save a fridge/freezer full of food. If I had an EV, 4 of these packs would be ~20kW which is a good reservoir for a medium strength solar installation. The feed-in tariff is rubbish.

[Lee D]

Re: EV

Nothing is green. Billions of dollars of infrastructure, tooling, materials and machines are never green.

They are *greener* under certain assumptions, that's as far as it goes.

And pushing off the "dirty" bit to a regulated industry on a few sites where treatment and capture can be legislated and done at scale is far better than pushing diesel fumes past primary schools, and this will be true NO MATTER if the final emissions are less or not (and they are less, but obviously never zero).

Fact is the EV is greener locally, and as green nationally as the energy supply used to charge it.

I have solar panels. If I use them to charge an EV (unlikely, to be honest, they will merely help a little), that's better than the entire oil infrastructure and then burning it in children's faces. However, where does my panel come from? China. What's the green credentials of that panel? No idea. They could be melting down orphans for all I know.

The "green" doesn't factor into people's decisions for this, the only green that matters is that in their wallet (as the article says, 2/3rds are more concerned about financial cost than anything else). And, to be fair, that's always going to be that way, and always has been. The most green tech in the world won't take off until I can see a way to save money on it - either by avoiding a tax, having a cheaper car to run, or lowering my electricity bills. Everything else pales in comparison to that type of green.

Fact is, it's not going to be long before EVs are cheaper than cars (whether artificially or not), and running them is already cheaper, and charging at home is cheaper than charging at public stations, and charging at home if you have solar is even cheaper. And that's exactly where everyone is headed.

Unfortunately at this precise moment in time, running a hybrid is actually cheaper once you take into account purchase costs.

[Fred Fallacy]

Re: EV

> They could be melting down orphans for all I know.

Well at least orphans are renewable!

[Missing Semicolon]

Re: EV

"pushing diesel fumes past primary schools". This old canard.

It might have been true in the eighties, but it is now true that the air in cities has never been cleaner. Modern Euro-6 diesels are now very clean - low NOx (even for VWs), and low particulates. I was surprised to stand behind a relatively new bus in Manchester a while back and realise I was not being choked by fumes, as they really did not smell that bad.

Data: https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/library/annualreport/viewonline?year=2022_issue_1&jump=5-2#report_pdf

Scroll down to the time-series graphs, and you will see that the levels of NOx and particulates are on a long-term downward trend. And this is way before EV's became prevalent.

[John Robson]

Re: EV

Whatever the downward trend, the only way to drop it properly is to stop burning crap on the street and just letting the fumes go.

If exhaust pipes were mandated to feed into the vehicle ventilation system then I suspect people might choose not to burn fuel when they could.

[Patrician]

Re: EV

"the air in cities has never been cleaner"

Does not mean it can't be even cleaner, nor does it mean it shouldn't be cleaner.

[Lee D]

Re: EV

And are 1000 diesels driving past a school every day cleaner than a power plant 20 miles from any schools?

[MachDiamond]

Re: EV

"It might have been true in the eighties, but it is now true that the air in cities has never been cleaner."

Air in cities, but not necessarily air around a school bus. Since they are government vehicles most often, they wind up being exempt from many emissions upgrades that apply to other buses. In the US, there's no seat belts. The seats are vinyl over 10mm of rotting foam with metal framework. I remember the school district being unhappy when our high school choir went on a road trip in a chartered bus rather than a ratty old school bus. The AC worked, the seats were very comfortable, it had a restroom and rode much nicer. It might also have been less money than union drivers on overtime for such a long trip. Mind you, this was some decades ago.

[MachDiamond]

Re: EV

"far better than pushing diesel fumes past primary schools"

One of my clients is a school bus driver that is a real estate agent besides. I was talking with her on a job the other day and she told me the local district will be deploying 7 electric busses this year (with DVD players already). Nothing like an idling diesel bus (which often have under carriage exhaust) picking up kids. Many, if not most, of the local schools have solar canopies over the car parks. If the bus lived at the school it serves, it could charge from those panels since they sit for most of the sunlight hours. Somebody had criticized EV school busses as depots would need a big power drop to charge all of the busses. That made me question why the buses have to live at a central depot. It can make sense for a diesel bus that needs more regular maintenance, but not an electric bus. The drivers usually are the ones that do a daily sweep out. Washes and more comprehensive maintenance could be done centrally on a rota.

[MachDiamond]

Re: EV

"Unfortunately at this precise moment in time, running a hybrid is actually cheaper once you take into account purchase costs."

Details are going to matter a lot so people need to run the numbers based on their own driving. I don't disagree that you are correct, but perhaps only when shopping for new vehicles. I keep seeing articles that say 50% of people that bought an EV are replacing them with an ICE again, yet, I am not seeing more EV's on Auto Trader at lower prices. A used Hyundai Kona EV is hard to find and pretty dear when one comes up. Given they've been out for some time and aren't the fastest charging vehicles (75kW), if so many people were giving up on EV's, there would be more for sale second hand.

[Neil Barnes]

Re: EV

It's hard to see how any EV vehicle - other than a hybrid - can manage the trip I did last week in a 30-year old Fiat: from Turin to Berlin in 13 hours from start to finish including stops for food, fuel etc. (And all that at better than 42mpg, which I don't grumble at). Incidentally, I did the trip down in two days, stopping overnight at a hotel with a single charging point, which was defective.

On the other hand it's hard to make an argument about catching some of those 7-800 watts per square metre falling out of the sky... unless the environmental costs of converting and storing them exceed the benefits.

[blackcat]

Re: EV

A PHEV would have been worse for you. The simple fact is that most PHEV have very poor regenerative braking compared to what is now called the 'self charging hybrid', or what I call 'an actual hybrid'. My OH has a 2000 Honda Insight which can regen at about 6-8kW (it only has a 13kW motor so this is good) and will keep its battery charged no matter how far you drive. At a last resort it will background charge from the engine if its really low.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: EV

WTF are you blathering about?

Regen braking on PHEVs is just as good as any non-plugin hybrid. My car was available in two versions, a plug-in and a non-plug-in. The regen braking is EXACTLY the same on both models.

Your comment is bad and you should feel bad.

[blackcat]

Re: EV

If you re-read you will say I said 'poor'. The hybrids from before were designed to reuse as much energy as possible as you could not charge them externally. The PHEV concept was a bodge for emissions to get as many EV miles rather than a well rounded actual hybrid drivetrain.

The cell specs for PHEVs generally have good discharge but limited charge, some as low as 10% compared to discharge. BEV cells can regen at almost 50% of max discharge.

[munnoch]

Re: EV

Bollocks.

The Outlander PHEV, the world’s best selling PHEV, charges the battery with up to the full generator output of 77kW. In contrast its plug in AC charger is only 3.6kW.

Further, since it has a motor on the back axle it can regen from all 4 wheels. 2wd electric vehicles still have to use the friction brakes on the rear axle so lose some regen efficiency (I know braking force is generally a lot less on the rear axle).

[TheMeerkat]

Re: EV

Toyota/Lexus plug-in hybrids have good regeneration (I suspect similar or even better to non-plug-in Toyota and Lexuses).

[Tom 38]

Re: EV

Lets call it 1200km, over two days, so 600km a day. You would have needed to stop somewhere with a DC charger overnight, and probably one or two 30 minute stops at a DC charger. None of that is difficult or impossible or challenging, just requires more infrastructure.

Google says that without stopping at all, that journey takes 12hr 46m, but I guess they don't count the fahren fahren fahren auf der autobahn.

[John Robson]

Re: EV

So according to google that's ~715 miles.

Take an Ioniq5 as an example.

That's ~300 miles range, which means 1.3 charges needed en route (~100kWh).

At 350kW that would be <20 minutes - obviously split over a couple of stops.

I'd suggest that that much charging would be entirely covered by the time taken to get food or use other facilities...

[Neil Barnes]

Re: EV

Yes, one observation is that the Autobahn services are pretty good at providing charging points, though if their electricity is as expensive as their petrol - a markup of perhaps 5% over the 'autohof' stations just off the motorway, and perhaps 15% over normal in-town filling stations - I'm not sure how happy I'd be. (French motorway services, similarly so, in the places I've been).

However, the little village in Switzerland at the side of the lake where we stopped for lunch had a nice big sign telling us we could stop for an hour, there was no charger available, and no filling station in town.

With BEV, you're constrained in your travel by the availability of charging points, as indeed you are with petrol, but there are a lot more petrol points... until the infrastructure improves, I might contemplate a small electric car for use around home, but not yet for long journeys.

[John Robson]

Re: EV

No - there are far more electrical points.

Not all of them are DC of course...

In the UK there are 5336 (zapmap stats) DC charge locations (not chargers), and 8353 (statista) petrol stations.

That's not a huge difference, and I deliberately excluded the AC chargers, which would get the location count up to nearly 33k.

IME Electricity tends not to be more expensive at service stations, it's just the DC premium that bites.

[MachDiamond]

Re: EV

"In the UK there are 5336 (zapmap stats) DC charge locations (not chargers), and 8353 (statista) petrol stations."

There's no need for parity in number of chargers. With a petrol car, you must refuel at a petrol station. With an EV, you can charge at home/work if you are a good candidate for one. What might be needed is for charging stations along motorways to have more chargers and an associated shop for food/supplies. I would see an even bigger bonus if the was a way to pay with cash at a retail shop. There are times when networks are down or a card gets lost/turned off. On long trips, I always bring along enough cash to buy all the petrol I might need to get home. Banks are usually quite unhelpful if there is a problem and unless you are a high-worth client, they can't be bothered to do anything for you.

[John Robson]

Re: EV

The difference is that DC chargers are needed on long journeys, and are needed for a little bit more time than the same stop at a petrol station.

So whilst you don't need as many the vast majority of the time, there are a few bank holiday weekends when you need quite a few en route.

If we're talking about destination charging around your daily life - then we need many more, but that's where that 33k number is already - and we should really have that much higher. The major supermarkets are looking at putting a couple of DC chargers in at each store - which is bordering on pointless. We'd all be better off with 1 DC and a dozen or more AC chargers at such places - the DC charger doesn't even need to be massively fast.

Paying by cash would be a substantial upgrade - even having a cash kiosk dispensing prepaid RFID cards would be better than card only, all the time.

[MachDiamond]

Re: EV

"Paying by cash would be a substantial upgrade - even having a cash kiosk dispensing prepaid RFID cards would be better than card only, all the time."

If the store had a way to accept cash for charging, you'd make a first stop at a kiosk or register inside to start the car charging and then get on with your shop. Prepaid cards are a good thing to have for EV charging as long as the stands have a reader (not Tesla, then). I've had debit cards get switched off for fraud (rightly so) and you have no clue until you go to use the card and its declined. If you have notifications from the bank, you might be informed about it, but chances are you'd have no recourse that isn't going to take 7-10 business days and need to be at home to receive a new card.

[John Robson]

Re: EV

"If the store had a way to accept cash for charging, you'd make a first stop at a kiosk or register inside to start the car charging and then get on with your shop. "

No - you'd have that *option* if the card reader wasn't working, or if you just wanted to.

You don't even need it to be in a kiosk, you could have a vending machine for £5 cards etc right next to the chargers.

And even Tesla could do this - very easily. The fact that they have a far better payment mechanism than anyone else isn't a detriment.

The *option* of paying by cash would be an upgrade, no-one is suggesting that payment by cash should be compulsory.

[MachDiamond]

Re: EV

"You don't even need it to be in a kiosk, you could have a vending machine for £5 cards etc right next to the chargers."

A kiosk that accepts cash will be a big target if it's outside near the chargers. If you are paying by card at a kiosk, there's no point other than paying for a charge right there.

I'm a big proponent of keeping cash around. It doesn't require a network or power for it to work. In the US, there are long stretches with few retail options that can have a power cut or internet could be out for a day or two while repairs are made. Most small merchants are very happy to take cash as payment. There are also times when somebody may be willing to help but can't take cards. If you are broken down, there might be somebody with a truck that can give you a tow, but they aren't a towing company sort of thing. A bit of cash to be allowed to plug in your EV might work where the employee will be pocketing the fee and the owner will be getting the bill.

[John Robson]

Re: EV

Of course the better solution is to have the charger read the VIN and bill you after - it can do that even if it has an intermittent connection.

But yes, cash does have some significant benefits.

[MachDiamond]

Re: EV

"Of course the better solution is to have the charger read the VIN and bill you after - it can do that even if it has an intermittent connection."

I'm not a fan of that. To use the VIN, you first have to sign up with the charging company. The systems that use that method use the VIN to verify the account before charging so if the network is down, they can't verify and it would be a risk for the charging company to just assume an account and bill later. The tracking is an issue for me as well. I pay cash for fuel when I travel both as a way to make sure I can get petrol when networks are down, but also so I'm not leaving a data trail that's going to be sold to anybody with two dimes. At worst on trips I will have booked hotels with a card and all of the other personal details that are required for staying indoors these days. Now that the car is fitted out for some camping, I'll not be staying at hotels on trips if I don't need to. A shower at a truck stop is around $12 so paying over $100 for a bed and shower at a hotel is not a very good deal. Many campgrounds are less than $40/night for basic camping which often includes showers, a loo and even a small store/deli. The last one I stayed at did a very good breakfast burrito so I was back on the road faster than if I had stayed at a motel and they tend to quell any noisy neighbors more vigorously than inns might.

[John Robson]

Re: EV

Nope - just query the VIN later with the DVLA or even the manufacturer.

Tesla have done this (effectively) since day 1, and VW group/Ionity do it "plug and charge".

There are ways around needing to communicate a charge at the time every time... though frankly if they had to drop to free vend (even if throttled to 50kW) that might encourage them to actually fix the issues.

To be fair those issues are now much rarer.

[MachDiamond]

Re: EV

"though if their electricity is as expensive as their petrol - a markup of perhaps 5% over the 'autohof' stations just off the motorway, and perhaps 15% over normal in-town filling stations - I'm not sure how happy I'd be. "

If you make those trips every day, the cost would be an issue. If you are paying a lower tariff at home and doing 90% of your charging there, the increased cost of electricity at a public charger is not even a rounding error looked at annually. Those increased costs have to pay for repairs so the public charging stations are kept in good order. Copper has gone up again and so have the reports of people pulling up to a charging station and taking all of the leads. There may be some rethinking of completely un-staffed charging locations.

[John Robson]

Re: EV

90% is an interesting figure...

Let's look at the costs for someone who uses 3 MWh/year for motoring (~12k miles)

Note in advance that the petrol cost, assuming 40mpg (38.8 uk average) and £1.45/l (RAC has it at £1.4527) £1975

Assuming a good home rate (7.5p) for 90% that's £202.50

Then assume Gridserve at 79p for 10% - that's £237

That's not a rounding error, even if you make some less optimal assumptions about your home rate.

Though if you use the open Tesla chargers, they're anywhere from 30p to 60p (varies by time and location) dropping the cost to somewhere between £90-180 (~£140 for typical daytime rates)

Even if 90% of your charging is at home, most of your electrical cost is DC charging - but even with "expensive" electricity you're still spending well under 25% of the equivalent fuel bill - amongst all the other benefits of not having to handle petrol.

[MachDiamond]

Re: EV

"Then assume Gridserve at 79p for 10% - that's £237"

To be fair, you'd deduct what you'd pay at home and only consider the premium. 79p is a bunch. I'm seeing $0.49 often enough in the US. My rate at home is $0.32 so it's an additional $0.17/kWh and that's without a time-of-use tariff that might get me better off-peak pricing at home. Some chargers cost more for higher power levels. If you connect to a 350kW stand, you'd pay more than if you chose the 100kW stall. Others will charge on a sliding scale based on what the car actually charges at, but if you aren't in a blistering hurry (sitting down for a meal), hooking up to the least cost option is the best move.

[John Robson]

Re: EV

"To be fair, you'd deduct what you'd pay at home and only consider the premium."

Why - I'm not charging at home for that bit at all.

In the UK chargers are generally per kWh, with Tesla also doing "overstay" fees, if you stay for much longer than you are actually charging. So there isn't really a "least cost" model on a single site. There was for a little while at Exeter, but they've replaced the old units, so they're all super fast chargers now.

[Charlie Clark]

Re: EV

That's a fairly polemic piece which suffers as a result. Pity, because it does highlight some problems, but pretending nuclear waste is safely stored really undermines the credibilty.

In much of Europe, domestic solar is indeed questionable, but in Africa itself it's a different matter and it's finally seeing increasing adoption: https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2024/06/14/a-remarkable-new-era-begins-in-south-africa – paywalled but I'm sure there are ways around it.

[John Robson]

Re: EV

"In much of Europe, domestic solar is indeed questionable"

It's really not - though I agree the biggest benefit is in countries where A/C is more common than heating.

I have a tiny array in the UK, and that produced just shy of 25% of my electrical consumption (including all driving) last year - it's a little lower this year, but not by nearly as much as I'd have guessed.

The only reason it's "questionable" is that the peak generation doesn't correspond with peak demand - but that doesn't stop it being valuable.

If I were in power I'd require that all new houses had integrated PV - because the cost of installing at the time of construction is so much lower (already have scaffolding etc, don't need to install a roof to then cover it up, don't need rails etc.).

Energy efficiency just doesn't appear to be a thing for new builds...

[MachDiamond]

Re: EV

"If I were in power I'd require that all new houses had integrated PV "

They have that in California. The issue is the bar is set very low and that bar is nameplate figures so if they install 1kW nameplate of panels on the north pitch of the roof, it can meet requirements. Useless. There should be more efficiency requirements that include siting homes on lots with a broad expanse of roof facing south (applying mainly to new developments) and the roof shouldn't have protruding objects that require avoidance. Mostly I'm talking about vacuum breaks for drains that I don't see why they couldn't be routed someplace better rather than needing to be straight up. Gas appliance vents I can see as needing to be as short and direct as possible. Even with those, it could be possible to design the home so those would be located where solar panels won't be.

I got lucky with my house in that it doesn't have the broadest expanse of roof facing south and there aren't many protrusions to work around. There's two I'm going to re-route and not tell anybody about. I didn't plan on buying my house, the deal landed in my lap and I would have been nuts to say no.

[John Robson]

Re: EV

Oh, no - I do mean full installation, not a simple nameplate figure, but a max integration...

East West arrays can be really good as well - they generate a little less overall, but their strength is in consistent generation through a much longer stretch of the day, and forcing all new developments to be south facing doesn't feel particularly sane.

[Patrician]

"Range was also a factor, with non-BEV drivers wanting at least 500 km of range,"

500km is 310 miles; most new BEV's can get that range, so they've got what they ask for....

[Duncan Macdonald]

Only while the battery is new

BEV range decreases as the battery ages - a 500km range when new might well be only 400km after 5 years (even less if fast charging is used often).

Icon for a BEV user that runs out of power 20 miles from the destination ======>

[John Robson]

Re: Only while the battery is new

If it's dropped that far the manufacturer will replace the battery under warranty.

You'd have to really, really, abuse the battery to get there.

[Lee D]

Re: Only while the battery is new

Quite. It's generally observed that at 10 years good LiFePO4 or similar batteries still have 90% of their capacity.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Only while the battery is new

"BEV range decreases as the battery ages - a 500km range when new might well be only 400km after 5 years (even less if fast charging is used often)."

You'd need to fast charge far more than average and even then, most warranties are at least 8 years so you'd get a new pack. You might even get a higher capacity pack. You also don't drop from 500km range to 400km range overnight (you could, but that would be something going sproing).

With my ICE car, I have a feel for how efficient I am on a trip and have Torque Pro running to give me data. My sister bought the car new and she didn't keep track of the mileage, but I assume it was better than now with over 240,000 on the odometer. I'm finding it to be consistent on mileage, perhaps just a tad lower over the last several years. Since my bladder can't go a full tank of petrol, I stop for my comfort well short of when the car needs to be refueled. On a long trip since I'm stopping, I will refuel as well, get ice and toss out any garbage I've generated, clean the wind screen, consult the road report for the next segment and check in with a family/friend to let them know how the trip is going (my safety net). I'll also update my notes and then get back on the road.

[gecho]

Too Early

I think the industry jumped the gun on full BEVs at scale gambling that bypassing hybrids was worth the risk. Though given product development timelines it was unlikely they'd manage to time it just right. This backward step will likely only last a few model years before batteries make BEVs better in terms of cost and performance.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Too Early

"I think the industry jumped the gun on full BEVs at scale gambling that bypassing hybrids was worth the risk. "

Governments have been passing laws requiring zero-emission vehicles which excludes hybrids. There would be no point in spending loads of money on a hybrid development program if anything with an ICE will not be allowed to be sold in a few year's time. The laws may need to be repealed before they get implemented and rethought to include hybrids if that's what's possible by the 2030's. If there isn't the battery availability by that time, the mandates would have the effect of forcing manufacturers to lay off tens of thousands of workers which might not be very popular and votes for politicians that are fingered as being responsible for the sackings would dry up. Show me a publicly-minded politician and I'll show you a consummate liar. They act in their own self-interest.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Too Early

"forcing manufacturers to lay off tens of thousands of workers which might not be very popular and votes for politicians"

From a UK perspective, barring any unforeseen snap elections, that's less that two "governments" away. It's looking pretty much a dead cert for Labour to get in next month and if recent decades are anything to go by and they don't royally screw up, likely to win next time too. It'll be interesting to see what they do re BEV, ICE and Hybrids in the lead up to the law kicking in banning sales of new ICE vehicles, if Hybrids are included and how they will manage to blame the Tories of today, 6 years in the past by then, for not sorting it out :-)

[MachDiamond]

Re: Too Early

"if Hybrids are included and how they will manage to blame the Tories of today, 6 years in the past by then, for not sorting it out :-)"

There's very little rational basis when playing the blame game. It only has to sound good. Out right lies aren't off the table either so the opposition can be to have done something 6 years ago and if that's repeated enough, it will become the "new truth" regardless of whether that's the same as what we were taught truth is.

[John Robson]

Re: Too Early

"This backward step will likely only last a few model years before batteries make BEVs better in terms of cost and performance."

They already are better...

[JamesMcP]

This is still something of a win. Pure ICE sales dropped in favor of more fuel efficient vehicles. If these are range-anxious drivers who have high annual mileage, it's a net win. Not as big as if they went full EV, but still a win.

This shouldn't be unsurprising. The first chargers will go where it's easy to build and result in a "lumpy" distribution of chargers. the base demand is established and the network will fill in, but it won't happen over night. Some volume of people will need to pass through those charger deserts and will decide an EV isn't viable.

I fall in that category. I have to make 400+ mile (600km+) round trips through rural areas on a regular basis. I considered an EV but at the time I was buying there were a total of 4 chargers (not stations, 4 chargers) along the most common route, with enough gap between them that it was seriously plausible I could be stuck if one station was completely offline. So I switched from an ICE to a hybrid and went from 27mpg to 45mpg.

I live in a 2-car household and it's likely the next vehicle will be a full EV, with the hybrid either handling long hauls but hopefully the charger network will be built out enough that it spends most of it's time puttering around town at low velocity where it gets even better mileage until it can be replaced with either an even more efficient vehicle or a full EV.

[Tom 38]

So I switched from an ICE to a hybrid and went from 27mpg to 45mpg.

This is less than what my 8 year old diesel Qashqai does - that don't impress me much.

[AndrueC]

Depends whether that's US gallons or UK gallons.

My Corolla never returns less than 55(UK)MPG even during winter. During summer it's more like 65(UK)MPG. I filled up today and put 25 litres in for 345 miles. That's nearly 63(UK)MPG or 52(US)MPG.

It also depends on the driver and type of journey although hybrids do a good job of compensating for all but the worst (fastest/most aggressive) drivers.

Of course we wouldn't have this US/UK confusion if everyone had the good sense to go fully metric.

[Bebu]

Good sense

Of course we wouldn't have this US/UK confusion if everyone had the good sense to go fully metric.

The metric economy measure (in AU at least) is litres/100km which is dimensionally the inverse of miles per random gallon (L² cf L^-2) which confuses oldtimers and left pondians in general.

More cogently the conversion from mpg to litres/100km isn't a simple multiplicative factor.

The formulae are apparently for

irredeemable left pondians: liters per 100km = (235.21 ÷ mpg)

and for recalcitrant^* right pondians: litres per 100km = (282.48 ÷ mpg)

The numerators are pure numbers and the variation is due to the litres/gallon since the miles/100km should be the same on both sides of the pond. Personally I would pick a number around 250 that the mpg divides easily and call it a day.

_{* Faredge's reform mob are probably panting for leagues per hogshead (or butt) and paid for in guineas.}

[JamesMcP]

Just noticed this, thanks for reminding me that you can't trust anything not metric.

[MachDiamond]

"The first chargers will go where it's easy to build and result in a "lumpy" distribution of chargers."

Where it's easy AND there is the potential for lots of traffic. A lot of the low hanging fruit in the US is already covered. The charging maps show how much there is along the major interstate highways and how overbuilt some of the bigger cities have become. What's missing are locations along two-lane highways and county roads. Some of the biggest national parks could use far more attention so people would be able to visit with an EV AND get back out as well. I've run some trial trips and found I could get to a park, but I'd be short on power to make it back to the closest charging location of any sort. I haven't noticed any EV camp sites yet where there's basic Level 2 charging to plug in a car. Many RV sites will rent a site moderately cheap "out of hours" for EV's to charge, but overnight, they want full rates which might not be that good. The issues with doing anything on Government land is daunting and that's a huge problem.

The US push for more charging using grants will likely lead to locations where there is power but not in a good location. The new companies will build, collect the pay off and then abandon the whole business. Those companies will look for power availability and really cheap land. There will be no thought of how the location works for travelers, how easy it might be to service/maintain and if it will turn a profit.

[John Brown (no body)]

"The issues with doing anything on Government land is daunting and that's a huge problem."

Not to mention that "National Park", if anything like the UK, means far, far more red tape, planning permissions, eco studies, "hiding" the infrastructure (eg overhead power lines) etc than even just "normal" govt. owned land.

[MachDiamond]

"Not to mention that "National Park", if anything like the UK, means far, far more red tape, planning permissions, eco studies,"

In the US there are a bunch of different titles. National Park, National Forest, State Park, State Forest, State Beach, Nature Preserve and on and on. It all means much the same thing and that's that there will be loads and loads of red tape to get anything done and the cost of those processes often make it financial nonviable for a company to pursue them.

[Slow Joe Crow]

New cars are expensive

My first objection to both BEV and hybrid cars is cost. My budget has no room for a bigger car payment at a time when I'm counting the days until I am free of my current modest payment. I do own a house and can install a charger but again that's more money. Also I live in the US where distances are greater and chargers are sparser. In April I was in Lake County Oregon, which has no public EV chargers whatsoever and had to drive 60 miles to the supermarket. I also routinely have to drive 2-300 miles to get anywhere and I like rural areas where chargers are scarce. A further issue is the dearth of cheap EVs and even plug in hybrids in the US. Chevy has killed both the Bolt and the Volt and I want nothing to do with Kia or Hyundai due to their legendarily scummy dealers. I'd certainly consider a cheap EV for local use since I rarely leave the city during the week but the only options are worn out ones

[Henry Hallan]

Re: New cars are expensive

If you can charge at home, your budget for car payments will be offset by a reduction in fuel bills. How much impact that makes depends on your mileage, but the high-mileage cars are the ones we want to go electric first.

For my commute the monthly car payment would have been (I paid cash) less than my monthly payments for diesel. It was a no-brainer to replace my ancient Ford Focus with a new EV.

[Lee D]

Re: New cars are expensive

And adds on 5-10% to the cost of the car to fit the infrastructure to your house in order to charge.

Sure, fixed cost rather than rolling, but it's not the ongoing cost that's putting people off - it's the up-front cost and the finance that ensues from that.

Adding in charging infrastructure fitted by a professional to your house, of a capacity sufficient to be useful, is not cheap.

[MachDiamond]

Re: New cars are expensive

"I do own a house and can install a charger but again that's more money. "

Technically, it's not a charger. It's just a more complicated plug. The cost comes from where you can put it. The EVSE (wall box) can be had for around $300 and it makes no difference what the power level is. Getting the power to that box is where the elechicken is going to pluck you. The shorter the distance from the panel to the box, the cheaper it will be. I'm lucky as the previous owner of my house put in a 240v outlet in the garage to run a welder. I strung heavier wire, installed a bigger breaker and a 14-50 outlet when I found the bits for half of nothing at an estate sale. I'm all set for $300 plus maybe another $10 invested. Now all I need is the EV. In the mean time, I think I'm going to pick up a small welder this week as the projects are stacking up and my friend with a welder hasn't been in his shop and not using it himself for me to have a go.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bird in the hand

My ICE cars engine is good for over 300,000 km. My car has already been built, the carbon has already been produced. It runs on ULP [carbon) It’s regularly maintained. It’s done about 65,000 km.

If I bought an EV instead a new car would need to be made (more carbon). My old car would probably still be circulating. The power for that EV would largely be generated by burning coal (more carbon).

Hanging onto my ICE car is clearly better for the environment, surely? If certainly a damn sight cheaper.

[Lee D]

Re: Bird in the hand

Hanging on, yes.

Making new ICE cars? Absolutely not by the same arguments.

And I would say that government would be absolutely within their right to start ramping up your cost of ownership to satisfy other green and EV subsidies and improvements (e.g. charger infrastructure).

[Tron]

All of this will soon be moot.

The spread of tolls for driving ICE vehicles (LTNs, ULEZ etc), will raise the cost of them to more than an EV, whilst local authorities bank serious cash doing it.

[MachDiamond]

Re: All of this will soon be moot.

"The spread of tolls for driving ICE vehicles (LTNs, ULEZ etc), will raise the cost of them to more than an EV, whilst local authorities bank serious cash doing it."

There's already plenty of companies that won't go to certain areas due to tolls. Add more and there will be more companies that will either charge a premium or will redline those places as well. In the US, there are very few electric "white vans" on offer. What there are can be expensive and they may not be a good fit. With VW investing in Rivian, perhaps VW will push more on the delivery vehicle side of Rivian and guide them away from expensive pickups and SUV's. The Amazon embargo on Rivian selling delivery vans is over and the company should have great insight into that segment by this point. They might also want to look at taking the same platform and creating fleet vehicles for things like local water companies. I've been seeing the city water company trucks driving past my house a lot lately (and failing to stop at the junction). Mostly dual cab pickups with one person inside and a utility bed to replace the standard pickup bed. Those could certainly be electric and no need for vast amounts of range. There's plenty of place to recharge around the city with the addition of an outlet. Each well, the city yard, the airport, the water treatment plant and city hall. All of those are fairly spread out so it wouldn't be a great distance to get to one. The last financial report I looked at showed petrol and diesel as very large parts of the expenditures. The city is in a partnership with a solar farm on the edge of town which should go some way towards offsetting any electric vehicle charging and there's room for much more of that.