back to article PayPal is planning an ad network built off your purchase history

PayPal will use data from billions of customer transactions to supercharge its nascent ad business. And it sounds as though it'll work like this: PayPal will provide ways for businesses to advertise online – on websites and in apps – and use the information PayPal knows about people – their transactions, purchasing histories, …

  1. The man with a spanner Bronze badge

    And how legal is this in the EU?

    Hopefully his particular child can be aborted prematurly.

    1. jokerscrowbar

      UKDK

      They changed the t&cs in April so that they can share your financial data with HMRC and others. I would suspect that The Man now wants everyone’s historic connections. The advertising is the lesser problem in this invasion of privacy.

      1. Julian 8

        Re: UKDK

        Surely that is ebay who do that. They are aware of what was bought and sold so can let HMRC know that

        All Paypal NEED to know is that I (customer) and paying the supplier x amount and for a particular reference code - beit order, ebay transaction code. and return a success/fail and transaction code

        There is no reason why Paypal should know any more than that.

    2. UnknownUnknown

      Where GDPR or similar in effect - so UK, EU. California they can just fuck off as … it breaches several of these.

      GDPR sets out seven key principles:

      Lawfulness, fairness and transparency

      Purpose limitation

      Data minimisation

      Accuracy

      Storage limitation

      Integrity and confidentiality (security)

      Accountability

      These principles should lie at the heart of your approach to processing personal data.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        IANAL, but surely, even apart from that, doesn't it fundamentally break the privacy rules?

        They are regulated in the UK as a bank - Can you imagine if Barclays did similar with our current accounts?

        https://register.fca.org.uk/s/firm?id=0014G000039dULGQA2

        https://register.fca.org.uk/s/firm?id=0014G00003By3NiQAJ

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You just bought a kettle...

    You just bought a kettle, that must mean you want to see adverts for kettles. I've been told by people who see adverts that this is often how it works.

    Is there any proof that targeted advertising works any better than a blanket campaign? People find it creepy, click-fraud is rampant, anti-tracking technology and legislation is increasing, might be a bad time to get into this field.

    1. cornetman Silver badge

      Re: You just bought a kettle...

      This is my experience even within just the likes of AliExpress. I mean, if I buy something, what's the likelihood I'm going to immediately buy the same thing again? Very low I would have thought.

      1. Missing Semicolon Silver badge

        Re: You just bought a kettle...

        An old colleague of mine worked in the SEO industry, He said that he tried deliberately disabling the advertising of the just-bought product to users. The click-through rate dropped.

        1. cornetman Silver badge

          Re: You just bought a kettle...

          > An old colleague of mine worked in the SEO industry, He said that he tried deliberately disabling the advertising of the just-bought product to users. The click-through rate dropped.

          Did many of those clicks actually convert to purchases though?

        2. EricB123 Silver badge
          Mushroom

          Re: You just bought a kettle...

          Toilet paper perhaps.

        3. Elongated Muskrat Silver badge

          Re: You just bought a kettle...

          Literally the only time I'd click on an ad is by mistake. A mistaken click-through isn't worth the electrons used to transmit it.

          If fewer pointless ads are shown, fewer pointless ads are clicked on by mistake. This could probably be proven by running an ad campaign for something nobody would possibly want, and still counting click-throughs on it. Left-handed screwdrivers, vegan slaughterhouse tools, or Rishi Sunak, for example.

        4. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

          Re: You just bought a kettle...

          What happened to the rate of if purchases?

        5. Charles Bu

          Re: You just bought a kettle...

          Yep, guess there's always the DSR period for a change of mind...

      2. Captain Hogwash Silver badge

        Re: what's the likelihood I'm going to immediately buy the same thing again?

        If you bought a kettle, very low. If you bought alcohol or nicotine products...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: You just bought a kettle...

      After buying a spatula from Amazon 20 years ago I have since become an Avant-garde collector of the finest spatulas. I have a collection of at least 200. Only 2 of them are still usable to be fair.

      1. Wade Burchette
        Joke

        Re: You just bought a kettle...

        You should have skipped Amazon and gone to Spatula City instead.

    3. The man with a spanner Bronze badge

      Re: You just bought a kettle...

      I can just about inderstand - you have just bought a kettle, perhaps you would like a toaster to go with it.

      I struggle, however, with - you have just bought a kango hammer, perhaps you would like a Russian bride.

    4. zimzam

      Re: You just bought a kettle...

      I don't know about studies but I remember that Ebay disabled their Google adverts for 3 months a while ago and found there was basically no difference in sales.

      1. zimzam

        Re: You just bought a kettle...

        Here's an article on it.

        https://thecorrespondent.com/100/the-new-dot-com-bubble-is-here-its-called-online-advertising/13228924500-22d5fd24

        1. ElPedro100

          Re: You just bought a kettle...

          Thanks. That's a great read and explains a lot.

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: You just bought a kettle...

            Wow yes, that was a good read. My laymans takeaway from it that the targetted algorithms a great at doing their job, but the final results need to be inverted just before the ad targetting happens. It seems vast majority of "targetted ads" are being directed at regular customers and/or those intending to buy there anyway. Inverting that means you target everyone *other* than those people. The click throughs will probably drop like a rock, but the actual *new* customer click throughs leading to a purchase will almost certainly rise. The numbers in the results will be much lower and look far worse in most graphs, but the real ROI ought to be better since now you are not counting the wasted ads on people going there anyway. But as the article states, marketeers are great at marketing themselves and need the big numbers for job preservation :-)

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: You just bought a kettle...

        But I’m sure their ad income dried up so back on…

        I’m sure there are metrics and data by Google and other ad grubbing scum etc but

        - does anyone actually watch them

        - how can you tell

        - there is some random and inappropriate ad placement esp. on some Facebook reels. I’m sure Suzuki will be delighted to know the Vitara is being offered on porn-star ‘day off’ jiggle reels.

      3. Mike 137 Silver badge

        Re: You just bought a kettle...

        That's the dirty secret -- the primary beneficiaries of targeted adverts are the brokers. There have been several quite rigorous pieces of research on this and they all come to that conclusion. Sadly, both advertisers and publishers are still being fooled.

        The only reasonably reliable advert placement from the perspective of the two primary parties is based on relevance to page content (for quite obvious reasons), but that cuts out the real time auction, which is what inflates placement prices and thus broker profit.

    5. sketharaman

      Re: You just bought a kettle...

      Yes, in my company we do digital marketing, and there's overwhelming evidence that targeted advertising has a way higher ROAS compared to traditional "spray and pray" marketing campaigns. If you're seeing ads for kettles after just buying a kettle, the site / app you're on is likely using outdated targeted advertising technology (or switched off targeted ads for you). For 10+ years, leading websites and apps have used cutting-edge targeted advertising technologies to display ads for "related products" i.e. products related to primary product purchased, products purchased by people related to purchaser, etc. To take an example closest to PayPal, many banks in USA have implemented Cardlytics technology to make targeted offers off of credit card purchase history. If your credit card statement for a certain month has many hotel charges, you might receive an ad for "40% discount on your next stay at AirBnB". More at https://gtm360.com/blog/2019/12/13/your-personal-data-is-not-sold-just-used/, https://gtm360.com/blog/2021/12/01/digital-ads-whose-preference-is-it-anyway/, https://gtm360.com/blog/2021/12/15/just-because-you-can-show-digital-ads-doesnt-mean-you-should/.

      1. Elongated Muskrat Silver badge
        Stop

        Re: You just bought a kettle...

        Not with my personal details and purchase history you don't, scumbag.

    6. Philo T Farnsworth Silver badge

      Re: You just bought a kettle...

      I don't personally use PayPal but I mentioned it at dinner last night to my partner, who sells tat on eBay and thus pretty much has to use PayPal.

      Her reaction, sadly, was "Meh. They're already tracking us anyway."

      Make of that what you will.

      As for me, it's too early to start drinking. Or perhaps too late.

      1. jake Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: You just bought a kettle...

        It's 5 o'clock somewhere.

        My round, I think.

  3. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Windows

    Remind me : Musk has been thrown out of PayPal, right ?

    So who are the assholes who think this is a good idea ?

    Thank God my PayPal account is defunct.

    1. marknzl

      Re: Remind me : Musk has been thrown out of PayPal, right ?

      They can still sell your historical transaction data, or access to it, or however they try to play down the breach in privacy and trust.

      I've just requested my PayPal account be closed and my data deleted. I honestly feel a bit betrayed and at the same time disappointed by my own naivety.

    2. spacecadet66 Bronze badge

      Re: Remind me : Musk has been thrown out of PayPal, right ?

      I regret to inform you that, in the corporate setting, assholes are not the exception but rather the rule.

    3. Wade Burchette

      Re: Remind me : Musk has been thrown out of PayPal, right ?

      I closed my PayPal account when they updated the terms that allowed them to seize your funds if you made social media posts they don't like and also because they no longer refund the 3% processing fee if the other party requested a refund. Soon after PayPal did that, other credit card processors soon copied them and called it industry standard. To me, it is the principle of the matter.

  4. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Meh

    Won't get much out of me

    The only reason I have a paypal account is for buying tracks from musos on bandcamp.

    1. druck Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: Won't get much out of me

      This one time at Bandcamp...

  5. alain williams Silver badge

    This should be illegal

    There should be a firewall between payment processing any any other part of the business.

    This is rather like an ISP selling information about which web sites you visit.

    1. rw.aldum

      Re: This should be illegal

      I mean I know the ISPs claim they don’t sell your data but Google ad tracking on every website known to man fixed that years ago… now you don’t even question if it was Google or your

      And then: Venmo… it’s a Facebook live feeds of everyone you know paying everyone they know, just there, on a timeline… with hard to disable controls for privacy… and more importantly, one of very few options to send random folks money (can the US just get EFTs already -_-)

      Not surprised PayPal is doing this - I’m actually surprised it took them this long seeing they own Venmo.

      Time to find a new online payment provider me thinks… once a company starts down this path, at best they will have regional exclusions (if the country can muster the willpower to object)

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: This should be illegal

      "This is rather like an ISP selling information about which web sites you visit."

      Phorm? (Yes, they are still around in some Phorm or other and still trying it on in some less strict jurisdictions)

  6. Tron Silver badge

    The basis for this is not solid.

    If I've just bought a washing machine, I don't need to see adverts for a dozen more.

    Ebay's logging of submitted searches is far more accurate.

    But I don't actually care. They can process data on my purchases as much as they want, to direct ads. It really doesn't bother me. I don't consider my privacy to be impinged. It shouldn't bother other people on here either, as most of them run ad blockers anyway.

    An invasion of privacy? That would be having my e-mail address and phone number appear on parcels sent to me. That's stipulated by governments, not tech companies. If you want to be a stalker, delivering parcels is probably your best career option.

    1. zimzam

      Re: The basis for this is not solid.

      That's a pretty naïve take. Advertising is only a portion of the revenue generated from selling data. A large – and growing – portion comes from selling to data brokers, who will sell the profiles they build to anyone with an expense account. Employers, insurance companies, banks, landlords, etc...

  7. mark l 2 Silver badge

    Where exactly are Paypal planning to put these ads? on the paypal website and in the app?

    I use Paypal regularly for buying online but the amount of time i spend on the Paypal website is minimal as its just a few seconds to confirm payment details then im taken back to the merchants website. So are they going to try and squeeze in ads during that payment processing? As im sure store owners are going to love that they are paying Paypal a % fee for the transaction and when their customer goes to pay their shopping cart that they are being shown an advert for another website or service.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      More likely you'll see ads on the store owner's website that are based on your data. Data that PayPal (and other data miners) have collected from you and are being paid by the advertiser to access. And yes, they could well be for a competitor that pays more in advertising than the store you are visiting, assuming it is something you buy regularly using PayPal, or perhaps searched for on Google or Amazon, or liked in social media. All great sources of (in my view irrelevant) data that can be purchased.

      As others have mentioned, I don't see the point of targeted ads. I'd much rather learn about things I don't already own or have researched. However, the absence of all ads (install a good ad blocker) is still preferred to the absence of just targeted ads.

      1. Fred Dibnah

        In my browsers I run NoScript, uBlock & Ghostery.

        What are these ‘ads’ of which you speak?

        1. Elongated Muskrat Silver badge

          I think they're what gets used to feed the Pi-Hole.

          If PayPal keep this up, they'll just get their domains added to the block-list.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Here we go again

    Dear Mark Grether.

    Please take a moment out of your busy schedule to first apply a goodly coating of superglue to the inside surfaces of both your buttocks then shove your head sideways up your arse.

    That way you will have something to occupy your mind instead of excreting:

    Ads for stuff I've just bought and have no further interest in buying more.

    Ads for stuff I've looked at in passing and decided I didn't want.

    Ads for stuff a bit like what I've just bought but in reality nothing like it - and in which I utterly disinterested anyway.

    Ads for what other people bought next - as if I give a rats arse

    Ads for what other people bought along with what I just bought - again, like I give a shit.

    Ads for what's "trending" - as if that is somehow relevant to anyone.

    Dear PayPal: Just fuck off.

    Yours with all the ill will I can find in the bottom of my septic tank

  9. Old Man Ted

    History repeate itsself

    If one were old enough to recall the 1920's and '30's mail order houses and their tie ups with newspapers postal services and delivery companies etc. History tells one about the trade routes.

    Nothing in the commercial world changes just as the advertising the marketing of products has always relied on cooperation between the seller and the delivery person. Islam was founded by a trader who co-operated with the bankers and the transporters of good from China to the Middle East,Africa and Europe. The transporters of the goods have always been the the middle man and the biggest sharks. They know what the customer wants and the wholesalers,retailer relies on them.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Paypal sends a lot of data back home

    A noticeably large amount of data was observed, via Pi Hole, making its way out to Paypal under a variety of aliases. Not just when I was interacting with Paypal (which is rarely), but constantly.

    So I added filters to the Pi Hole blacklist to stop that - which I have to undo every time I actually want to use Paypal.

    .*paypal.*\.net

    .*paypal\.com

  11. heyrick Silver badge

    Oh joy.

    Yet another shitty ad slinger...

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: Oh joy.

      "Yet another shitty ad slinger to be dropped on the floor by the border routers."

      FTFY

      They sets 'em up, I shoots 'em down. Simples.

  12. ahahah

    *laughs in semiotic alchemy*

  13. LybsterRoy Silver badge

    They're welcome to my history - must be all of three transactions a year unless some of the sites I buy stuff from are using PayPal and not telling me.

  14. Craig 2

    Explotation works both sides

    I think we're all so obsessed with "They're out to exploit us!!!" that we forget that they're also out to exploit sellers who need to advertise...

    1. parrot

      Re: Explotation works both sides

      “need”?

  15. werdsmith Silver badge

    Royal Kingdom / Royal Match comes up frequently for me on ads, about 75% of ads I see are this game

    I have no interest in it, and the ad algorithm presumes that I will suddenly become interested after already having ignored it a hundred times. It's very persistent, but not as persistent as I am determined to continue to ignore it.

    1. Elongated Muskrat Silver badge

      Mobile ads are the worst:

      Please sit through this 2 minute long unskippable ad with loud and annoying sound that you have to scramble to mute via a tiny button hidden in a random corner of the ad, for the fifth time in the last ten minutes, because perhaps you haven't quite yet vowed to never do business with whatever company is spewing this shite into your face. If you don't then respond by pressing the tiny X in the corner in time (after pressing it once already, being taken to the Play Store download for whatever app/game it is, closing that, waiting five more seconds and pressing the X again), whatever app it is that contains that ad in the first place will decide you didn't see it, and force you to watch it again.

      I get that a lot of apps are funded by advertising, but advertising that appears to have been devised as one of Dante's circles of Hell simply is not necessary, and can't be effective.

  16. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

    We all deal with tech companies many many times over a month... lets say a 100 or so... How can there possibly be in any value in these 100 companies each trying to sell ads to each person. its simply not possible for anybody to buy any everything from each one, and its more likely to be less than in 1 / 100 if it even comes that close.

    So when will there simply be too much advertising that its just background noise, like clouds are background noise in the REAL blue sky.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I used to work for a very large company, one of its tasks was filtering millions of possible customers for product X or service Y for mailshots. A successful campaign would see at most 1 or 2% of folks respond to the junk mail.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        I worked for a company who did this as an outsourcer for many companies. Their achievement was to raise the mail conversion to sale rate from about 0.1% to 1%.

      2. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

        but using my summary its not 1 or 2% its actually far less. If 100 companies are spamming you with a 100 ads, and each person buys one item/service thats 1 in 100x100 or 1 in 10k which is far less than 1%.

        Is 1 in 10k or 1 in 100k success ?

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          There would be a mailshot, the many tens of thousands of targets identified through profiling and screening then a message went out from one company. A single email or postal mail to each target.

          This made enough money for the outsource profiling company to do very well, so the economics are there somewhere.

        2. jake Silver badge

          But ...

          ... 100 companies are not spamming me. That's what DENY tables are for.

          In fact, because they just get dropped on the floor, they can't even see my part of TehIntarWebTubes. It's better that way.

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      "So when will there simply be too much advertising that its just background noise"

      That ship already sailed, came back for a re-fit,, sailed again and eventually rotted into a hulk awaiting the scrappers. But they keep building new ones faster than the old ones can be scrapped!

  17. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

    Exit

    If this goes through I'll be shutting down my PayPal account. This is absolutely unacceptable without a customer's consent. Also, it's most likely in violation of the GDPR and several financial rules in the U.S.

    1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

      Re: Exit

      The joke is on you, if you think the US government will protect YOU over a BIG CORP. You seem to forget that america has been built on only putting rich people first. Take the south, they at least had the honesty to make it clear that slavery was acceptable. THe american west was conquered by killing millions of natives, countless immigrants died building the railroad, and so on. Times change, but America has always been the same, money talks.

      1. spacecadet66 Bronze badge

        Re: Exit

        Not sure why people are downvoting this: it's accurate.

        1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

          Re: Exit

          Idiot americans who have been brainwashed into actually believing their propaganda.

          There are so many examples of americans get the worst deal in the western world .... and yet they still believe they are the best.

          1. spacecadet66 Bronze badge

            Re: Exit

            "There's a sucker born every minute." --P. T. Barnum, a very American American

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: Exit

              Apparently it was actually said about Barnum, by David Hannum, in reference to Barnum's part in the Cardiff Giant hoax. Or so the story goes.

              Thomas Tusser wrote a variation on this theme. Specifically "A foole and his monie be soone at debate, which after with sorrow repents him too late.[0]

              My gut feeling is that one variation or another of the phrase has been in widespread use longer than humans have understood the concept of writing. It probably goes back to the thoughts of the first proto-shaman, separating the ignorant from their meager scavenged food because his cave or hollow tree looked scary. Cushiest job in Africa a couple million years ago, I'm sure.

              [0] From: FIUE HUNDRED POINTES OF GOOD HUSBANDRIE. —Tusser, 1573 ... If you haven't read the works of Tusser, I highly recommend it. Makes you realize how very little Humans have changed in 500 years.

            2. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

              Re: Exit

              Exactly the more anyone has to "say" something (in the case of america its also loud) the more you can be sure the opposite is true.

          2. jake Silver badge

            Re: Exit

            If there is one thing I've learned in my travels, it's that idiots abound world-wide ... yes, even in whatever gawd/ess forsaken country you were spawned in.

            1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

              Re: Exit

              We can all see your argument is based on thought and logic, your entire response was a petty insult from a 5 yo.

              Try a bit harder next time to actually give reasons.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    'Ow Much

    I have made 1265 transactions and spent 37k since 2006. Should give them something to sift through!

  19. Screwed

    What an odd person...?

    My PayPal history is confined to a subset of my purchases where I cannot use one of my other preferred ways of paying. These days, that is quite rare.

    If PayPal analyse me for advertising, they will see a very odd and biased view. And if they sell that onwards it will mislead potential advertisers.

    I am still hoping that my bank will offer an anonymised payment mechanism where the payee doesn't get to know anything about me and my account like card numbers, expiry, even bank name! Something like Apple Pay but better.

  20. Long John Silver Bronze badge
    Pirate

    Can we all join in?

    This is highly amusing. How does one set up one's devices to enable receiving advertisements?

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Can we all join in?

      Buy a new one and just click "Yes" to all the prompts :-)

  21. Luke Worm
    Big Brother

    I closed my PayPal account last year, after a couple of decades. No regrets, and now even less.

  22. HarryBl

    What are these 'ads' that people speak of?

  23. hayzoos

    Ditched paypal long ago

    Over a single transaction. I was purchasing a rare lifetime premium membership only requiring a single payment. The service used paypal for payment processing. I had a paypal account and it was linked to a checking account as they had insisted back then. I was paying with a credit card. Paypal processed the payment as an ACH transaction against the checking account which did not have funds to cover the transaction. I knew full well it did not and did not expect paypal to attempt the ACH transaction. I disputed the transaction with the bank. They attempted to present the transaction again. I disputed again and requested a standing dispute of any and all paypal transactions on the bank account. I then closed my paypal account with a message stating why. I firmly believe that when a form of payment is presented at the point of transaction, only that form should be used even if other forms' details are known by the processor.

    I had to call the service provider to purchase the membership over the phone. The lifetime turned out to be lifetime of the service. It was assimilated by IBM.

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Well that is the final straw PayPal has become useless they have more excuses on how not to pay claims They told me I had to contact the police RCMP for damaged and lost articles what a joke so I will now say GOODBYE PayPal !

  25. Hogdog

    Well that's the last straw PayPal is already useless as in the fact that the make it impossible for claims which is the only reason I used it for protection they now told me to contact the police/ RCMP because of lost and damaged shipments What a Joke any excuse not to pay claim so now they are going to broadcast my private information

    There is only one thing to do is say GOODBYE PayPal the useless

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