back to article Research finds electric cars are silent but violent for pedestrians

The road to net zero might be paved with good intentions, but it's also apparently littered with injured pedestrians. Researchers from the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine have highlighted a worrying side effect of the electric vehicle revolution. As a pedestrian, you are twice as likely to be injured by an …

  1. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
    Trollface

    GOOD

    Modern humanity has been increasingly spared the evolutionary pressures faced by our forebears, allowing the slow and inattentive to continue to breed instead of being picked off by natural predators, thus diluting the gene pool. With the rise of EVs, perhaps people will learn to once again pay attention to their surrounds or pay the price for staring mindlessly at their phones as they wander out into traffic.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: GOOD

      Nah, you don't need to stare at your phone or listen to music to be hit by a Tesla. I got hit in a mall parking: I just had left my car and was going towards the mall entry, when a Tesla crept behind me and hit me (not very hard fortunately).

      Of course at that speed he was inaudible, and of course as a standard garden-variety human, I'm not equipped with rear view mirrors. Still, he didn't really need to hit me, and rear-ending somebody is AFAIK always your fault, no matter what the person/vehicle in front of you was doing or not doing.

      My point? Could it be jerks tend to buy EVs? I agree there still is insufficient evidence, but a strong correlation emerges.

      1. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
        Meh

        Re: GOOD

        "Could it be jerks tend to buy EVs?"

        Your story is about a Tesla, specifically, and I would 100% agree that Teslas are the EV equivalent of BMWs or Audis in regard to the sort of people who tend to buy them. I doubt you see the same sort of behavior from Nissan Leaf owners.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          And it will only get worse

          When Elon the Magnificent gets his minions to make his Full Self Driving work and he can start his famed RoboTaxi service. Then the occupants will not even be able to sound the horn at errant pedestrians.

          According to another article here, that will be in 2026.

          At least my EV deliberately makes an audible noise when moving at low speed unlike those Tesla's that you see everywhere and are driven by people who used to drive BMW's and Audi's... total jerks.

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: GOOD

        "Could it be jerks tend to buy EVs?"

        Yes. But that's not the whole story.

        Around here (North Bay Area) it's also the stoner/aging hippy set who used to drive Subarus "because they are green"[0]. Most of them aren't actually jerks, but none of them should be behind the wheel much of the time. (It's true, pot-heads, weed negatively affects your ability to drive. Really. (I'll add a preemptive "so does alcohol" here.))

        [0] I guess advertising sometimes works, if your intended audience is stoned most of the time.

      3. jake Silver badge

        Re: GOOD

        "and rear-ending somebody is AFAIK always your fault, no matter what the person/vehicle in front of you was doing or not doing."

        Kinda, in that the car behind should always leave enough room to stop just in case the car in front does something stupid. Which led to all kinds of insurance ripoffs where cars would cut in front and slam on the breaks to intentionally get rear-ended, and thus get a payout for an otherwise useless car.

        All of my road-going fleet (including the bikes!) is now equipped with the somewhat strangely named "dashcams"[0]. Get a good one with at least front and rear high-res cameras (four cameras is better). Spend money, cheap chineseum junk won't take usable pictures. Take the time to learn how it works. If you're not handy, have it professionally installed. Then call your insurance company and tell them about your new toy. Chances are they will drop your rates enough to pay for the silly thing within a couple years. And trust me, the first time you need the footage[1] because it's your word against the stoned Tesla driver who side-swiped you as you maintained your lane, you'll thank me for the suggestion.

        A quick glance at the tubes of ewe shows many reviews. Do your due diligence before dropping coin. Caveat emptor, there's a lot of junk out there.

        [0] Mine show the road around me, not the dash ...

        [1] I wonder how many feet of media those little boxes contain ...

        1. ICL1900-G3 Silver badge
          Headmaster

          Re: GOOD

          Brakes! Remember 'jake brake', Jake!!

        2. HereIAmJH Silver badge

          Re: GOOD

          Note that OP said "I just had left my car and was going towards the mall entry, when a Tesla crept behind me and hit me (not very hard fortunately)."

          Tesla driver hit a pedestrian in a parking lot. Almost certainly the driver's fault.

          As far as the comment on dashcams, I whole heartedly believe in them since an accident in 2018. And I'll add make sure you get forward and reverse facing cams. You never know where they are going to come from. But after recently having to deal with another accident caused by a distracted driver (again), dashcams aren't a silver bullet. My insurance said "obviously you were not at fault". Other person's insurance said "do you have pictures from the accident so that you can prove the car in the video was our customer's car". Whether your insurance is discounted or not, a dashcam is the best defense against getting screwed more by an insurance company. They are still going to play their games and look for a way to deny paying.

          Then look up the mandatory minimums for insurance in your state and be afraid to drive anything besides an old beater.

      4. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: GOOD

        "Of course at that speed he was inaudible, and of course as a standard garden-variety human, I'm not equipped with rear view mirrors."

        Even so, in a car park, there are going to be moving vehicles and pedestrians and it's on both groups to be extra attentive. Especially those inattentive pedestrians who, just moments ago, were drivers and probably complaining about other inattentive pedestrians :-)

        1. Yes Me Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: GOOD

          My recollection is that some good old British electric milk floats used to go 'tick... tick... tick..." as they trundled along at about 10 m.p.h, so you really could hear them coming. Why isn't there a law that all EVs have to tick loudly?

          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjg2ga is lovely

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: GOOD

            Some of my vehicles do that occasionally. It's usually small stones stuck in the tire tread, once in a while it's a nail.

          2. rtfazeberdee

            Re: GOOD

            Since 2017 its been law in UK/Europe for EVs to make a sound at speeds lower than 12mph

            1. Caver_Dave Silver badge

              Re: GOOD

              Above that the tyre noise is equivalent to tyre noise on any type of vehicle.

              (I tire of spelling this wrongly for those in non-native English speaking areas, so it is in proper British English spelling!)

      5. jmch Silver badge

        Re: GOOD

        "Could it be jerks tend to buy EVs?"

        Plenty of jerks around driving ICE cars. Without being as cynical as the OP in suggesting a good Darwinian mechanism here, it has to be said that practically every single human alive today has grown up in an environment where cars/trucks are noisy and loud, and this has, presumably, led to underdeveloped wariness mechanisms. People will get more used to looking when they're crossing, and adjust accordingly. Meanwhile EVs will presumably up the volume of their artificial speaker-generated whiny noise to meet the meatbags half way.

        Also a small quibble.... "accidents per mile driven" is maybe not the best measure to compensate for the ICE:EV ration when interpreting the stats. EVs are, generally speaking, more 'around town' vehicles. ICE vehicles surely have higher average mileage. So EVs having double the accidents per mile driven does not automatically make them twice as dangerous

        1. Eponymous Bastard

          Re: GOOD

          Darwinism ROCKS!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: GOOD

      Should help weed out the sick, elderly and disabled, sounds in line with the policies of a few modern politicians and the attitude of a certain South African emerald miner's son.

      1. Roopee Silver badge

        Re: GOOD

        The Darwin principle of "survival of the fittest" covers that too, and favours sociopaths - so be careful what you wish for if you value your granny, ageing Mum, or genius best friend in a wheelchair...

        I agree that we are evolving backwards (dissolving/revolving?) but the solutions aren't simple and clear-cut.

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: GOOD

      Yeah, the "spin" on the article and/or the research paper definitely seemed to be "quiet cars are more dangerous" when in reality, it's far more likely inattentive pedestrians stepping out into the road without looking and only relying on their ears[*]. I've certainly witnessed it myself, people wandering up a road with no idea some very patient EV delivery driver is crawling along behind them in the local city centre on a semi-pedestrianised road.

      * I'm aware this is more of problem for those with sight impairments, but the article/paper doesn't separate them out as special case either at more or less risk. I'd assume that anyone with a sight or hearing disability would be more careful and attentive anyway, by way of self-preservation, when dealing with crossing roads.

      1. Ian Mason

        Re: GOOD

        Don't worry, in six months the self same authors will be penning a paper on how noise pollution kills. Obviously in between writing articles for the Daily Fail on what new thing it is that cause cancer this month.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: GOOD

          "Obviously in between writing articles for the Daily Fail on what new thing it is that cause cancer this month."

          It's the thing that cures cancer this month. Any fule kno that.

          In other news: Googling symptoms invariably leads to cancer.

      2. hedgie Bronze badge

        Re: GOOD

        Warning: ramlbly and a touch ranty.

        As someone who does a bike/train commute, I get to see the inattentive, terminally clueless, and just arsehole drivers, cyclists, and pedestrians every day. There are the slow walkers who shuffle from the middle of a bike/pedestrian path, meandering side to side enough that one cannot comfortably overtake taking up a 10' wide path all to themselves, and packs of joggers reminding one of why they all ended up on the B Ark. Drivers seem to think that a "yield" sign at a nearly blind corner means "take at speed" regardless of those on the bike path crossing, and don't seem to see anyone who isn't enclosed in a huge moving metal[1] Thing. Then there are the cyclists dressed like ninjas, no lights, nor awareness of others on the road/path and brazenly ignore all signs and signals.[2] Phones, earbuds, and other distractions really just enhance the blissful unawareness of anything and anyone else that most people seem to have, and some of the pedestrians especially just seem to want to force one to slow to a crawl to get past them, even when they're going in the opposite direction and can clearly see you.

        Of these near daily road hazards, obnoxious drivers[3], even of those makes/models which are synonymous with such behaviours are probably the fewest in number by a good extent. The stakes are just orders of magnitude higher given the mass, velocity, and the general squishiness of flesh and bone compared to even the hard plastics at speed.[4] Often, the most overall dangerous acts by many drivers happen because they want to *avoid* colliding with someone who is far squishier, such as stopping in the middle of a turn because some daft fool decides to start crossing after they had started to turn. Same with those trying to be polite by waiting for stopped cyclists to proceed regardless of normal right of way. I'd honestly feel safer staying stopped while the driver proceeds/turns, assuming that it's their "turn". The near silence of EVs does increase risk, particularly when they're behind someone or if that person can't easily see it, and using a giant iPad instead of tactile controls probably doesn't help. Especially with cities and suburbs designed around cars and not people, the number of terrible drivers is always going to be higher than it needs to be, simply because training and licensing standards are going to be, by necessity, lower than in places where other modes of transport are more viable. At least if the clueless were forced to walk/bike, the number of serious injuries and deaths would drop. But that's a planning issue as much as anything else.

        [1] Metal, plastic and glass, in varying ratios.

        [2] I'll admit to not stopping all of the time, provided that I have a clear enough view of the intersection and there is absolutely NO ONE whom I could possibly collide with.

        [3] The stereotype of the BMW or nowadays, Tesla driver does hold somewhat. As the cost of a car increases, the arseholeishness of the driver tends to as well.

        [4] A problem not helped in the US, at least, by the behemoths with poor visibility, further lifted suspensions and the closest they've come to a job site is driving past one, a problem facilitated by "safety standards" that are only concerned with the occupants of the vehicle and not others on the road.

      3. Roopee Silver badge
        Megaphone

        Re: GOOD

        > anyone with a sight or hearing disability would be more careful and attentive

        /people who are aware they have/ a sight or hearing disability would be more careful and attentive

        My experience is that a lot of people with poor or impaired hearing are NOT aware of how bad their hearing is.

        Icon seemed appropriate :)

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: GOOD

          "My experience is that a lot of people with poor or impaired hearing are NOT aware of how bad their hearing is."

          Correct.

          Hint: If people are constantly suggesting you are talking too loud, or asking you to stop shouting, go get your ears checked. Your family, friends and neighbors will thank you.

    4. AceRimmer1980

      Re: GOOD

      The problem: Pedestrians don't hear EV's, so step out into the road without looking.

      Best solution: Train people to check the road before they step off the pavement, or use crossings properly.

      What the UK did: Pass a law so that if a pedestrian steps in front of your car, that's your fault.

      We are heading further into Idiocracy.

  2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

    Imagine leisurely strolling across the street, headphones in, Taylor Swift blasting, only to be abruptly acquainted with the hood of a Prius.

    I doubt such a pedestrian would even hear a tractor rumbling up behind them. Perhaps they could learn to open their eyes instead?

    1. MiguelC Silver badge
      Black Helicopters

      I remember reading here about a guy that was killed when a helicopter fell on him, oblivious as he was to his surroundings because of music playing on his headphones (extremely loudly, one imagines) and wearing a hoodie, stopping him from seeing most of his surroundings.

      Not the one from el Reg, but found it here

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Unless the helicopter engine had stalled I can't imagine any level of headphone output that would mask the sound of one approaching form overhead. And if the main rotor doesn't get you the tail rotor will.

        1. Jim Mitchell
          Black Helicopters

          Oddly, the main reason helicopters fall from the sky is probably some form of engine failure...

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Quite so. There'd only be the sound of the screaming to alert him.

            1. ThatOne Silver badge
              Black Helicopters

              Helicopters can do autorotation, which is analogous to a plane's glide flight: The rotor stops turning by the helicopter's power, and starts turning due to the upward flow of air through the rotor. Thanks to that, if the helicopter has enough altitude, it will be able to land safely like an autogyro.

              If it's low enough, it will be able to land before the rotor stops. The deadly altitude is the one where the rotor stops and autorotation hasn't started yet: At that point, for a couple seconds, the helicopter is dropping like a stone...

              So, having a helicopter fall out of the sky is as (un)likely as having a fixed-wing plane do it.

              (Relevant icon)

              1. werdsmith Silver badge

                Autorotation can be generated by altitude and descending or forward speed.

                Small helicopters depart some like planes, remaining low whilst up building up sufficient forward speed so that they are fast enough to autorotate when they are transitioning to an altitude that is sufficient to do so.

                Just going vertically in the hover is risky for small single engine helicopter.

                Getting into autorotation depends on the pilot lowering the collective lever before the rotor runs out of energy. Small light helicopters with low rotor inertia off less time for a pilot to notice and respond.

                Helicopters in autorotation aren’t silent. EVs in car parks are quiet but not silent either. Petrol cars that aren’t under acceleration are also pretty quiet.

                1. Jim Mitchell
                  Boffin

                  Added to my negative bucket list: Find out how loud an auto-rotating helicopter is.

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        "oblivious as he was to his surroundings because of music playing on his headphones (extremely loudly, one imagines) and wearing a hoodie"

        The hoodie is a dead give away, a criminal so nothing to cry over. Where I live it gets quite hot in the summer. American desert hot, not British hot. There's still little hoodlums wandering about wearing black hoodies, playing with their phone and blasting gangsta rap through $400 headphones. My biggest fear is they reproduce. In a close second is they present themselves to the front end of my car and cause my insurance rates to go up. I make an effort to drive carefully, but there's only so much one can do.

        1. Eponymous Bastard

          ❤️

          Please run for President!

      3. Eponymous Bastard

        Nanny, nanny, nanny!

        Thanks for the link.

        "Last year, Carl Kruger, a Democratic state senator from New York proposed a bill to ban the use of iPods and other electronic devices while crossing the street."

        Carl, you are an immense waste of space.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's great! I LOVE being able to sneak up on pedestrians, I can just sneak up right beside them and then hit the horn, I've seen them go a foot in the air when they realize there's suddenly a car there!

    My car is old enough that it doesn't have one of those stupid noisemakers, but even if it did I'd disconnect it.

    (Yes, it does mean I have to be more careful looking out for them, since they can't hear me coming at low speeds. But above about 20, there's really no difference. At normal speed the tire noise on ANY car is louder than the engine unless it's one of those asshats who removed the muffler. That's one downside to not having any kind of inspections here, people drive all kinds of crap around.)

    1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

      ..drive all kinds of crap around..

      Like an EV with the sound generator disabled, as you said you would do!

      I'm all for regular tests on the road-worthiness of a vehicle, even if it does mean a bill for maintenance as my cars get older. Make the test of a sound generator in a vehicle so equipped a fail if it's not working.

      On the subject of brake checks, when doing a test on the efficiency of the brakes on a rolling-road, does the rolling road take any heed of the weight of a vehicle, as a heavier vehicle requires stronger brakes for the same stopping power?

      1. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: ..drive all kinds of crap around..

        Yes - and that's required in the certification process... EVs of course often don't use their brakes, since regen is a better way to slow down.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: ..drive all kinds of crap around..

          A wonderful moneymaker for the garages, who can then charge a fortune to replace the discs that are rusted from lack of use. They tried it on me, but a few hard stops from 70mph cleaned them nicely.

          1. John Robson Silver badge

            Re: ..drive all kinds of crap around..

            Yes, you need to use them occasionally - car makers are wising up though, my current vehicle has drum brakes on the rear...

            1. HereIAmJH Silver badge

              Re: ..drive all kinds of crap around..

              car makers are wising up though, my current vehicle has drum brakes on the rear...

              Drum brakes can rust too. You just can't see it. Having a higher carbon steel in the rotors/drums will reduce rust, but not stop it. So if you buy quality replacement parts you'll have less problems with rust. While disc brakes are exposed to the elements, drum brakes can trap moisture and dirt.

              Toyota likes to use drum brakes on the back, disc on the front. Not because they are better, it's because it's cheaper. Disc brakes operate at higher pressure and have a stronger clamping force, meaning you will stop faster. But about 80% of your braking comes from your front brakes during normal driving, which is why your car has disc on the front.

              1. John Robson Silver badge

                Re: ..drive all kinds of crap around..

                A drum brake shouldn't have moisture in it anyway if it's correctly sealed and maintained.

                I've used drum brakes on my pedal cycles for many years, they just carry on working...

                1. HereIAmJH Silver badge

                  Re: ..drive all kinds of crap around..

                  Sealed drum brakes on an auto? Tell me you've never worked on any.

                  1. John Robson Silver badge

                    Re: ..drive all kinds of crap around..

                    Not worked on any for a while, but did twenty odd years ago - don't recall anything more than brake dust and grease on the pivots, but it's a long time, and they were never a high maintenance item.

                    1. jake Silver badge

                      Re: ..drive all kinds of crap around..

                      "Not worked on any for a while, but did twenty odd years ago"

                      No, you have never worked on automotive drum brakes. It's bloody obvious.

                      What you wrote was "A drum brake shouldn't have moisture in it anyway if it's correctly sealed and maintained."

                      Anybody who has ever worked on automotive drum brakes knows damn day well that they are not sealed in any meaningful way ... and especially not sealed against moisture.

                      1. John Robson Silver badge
                        Thumb Down

                        Re: ..drive all kinds of crap around..

                        "No, you have never worked on automotive drum brakes. It's bloody obvious."

                        Well that's not true, since I have done. I don't recall the intricacies of their design since it was twenty plus years ago, and I worked on very few, since they don't require much maintenance and I didn't work at a garage, but on a driveway with a friend who was a much more experienced mechanic than I ever will be.

                        However, whilst you'd like to assume that "correctly sealed" means IP66 it could equally mean: "has appropriate drainage so that water doesn't sit in the drum" (which is how the drum brakes I more commonly work on function). I'd expect drum brakes to be at least IPX1, probably IPX3 when installed - not through multiple levels of rubber seal, but through basic design. The reason they'll fail higher ratings is because there are some angles where carefully aimed water can get in - but those directions are also somewhat protected by their location in a wheel well (hence I reckon IPX3 is realistic).

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Just a thought

    Perhaps all Electric Cars should make a noise like the various Tesla coils etc in all the classic Horror Films.

    Nice and loud with real sparks if possible !!!

    :)

    Look up Strickfaden for more info.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Just a thought

      Nah, electric vehicles should sound like electric vehicles; they should sound like a milk float on a bumpy road....

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Just a thought

        Ernie!!!

        1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: Just a thought

          & he drove the slowest EV in the West!

      2. Version 1.0 Silver badge

        Re: Just a thought

        I was just having to drive through a lot of road work this morning with stupid workers walking everywhere and blocking the normal way into my neighborhood ... I wanted to make sure everyone walking around was safe so I turned all the windows down and the volume up to 12 to let everyone know I was there. It was loud and I got a lot single fingers waved at me, they were pissed off but totally safe!

    2. Dr Dan Holdsworth
      Joke

      Re: Just a thought

      If a noise-maker has to be fitted, then I would definitely expand on the range of special effects available.

      BOFH after a long night on the curry and cheap lager, for instance; with an extra-special sound effect for accelerating away from the traffic lights; just the thing to light up the faces of small children everywhere.

      I would also use the sound of a particularly knackered diesel engine (just for old times' sake), and a synthesised Ferrari engine.

      Finally, for use in queuing traffic, simulated Scottish swearing and ranting with an "Och see you... Jimmy!" when I accelerate away from traffic lights.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Just a thought

        One local street is apt to have tourists wandering on it as if it was pedestrianised which it certainly isn't. I think the council should put up loudspeakers playing the sound of car horns at intervals interspersed with the sound of screeching breaks and a crash.

        1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
          Go

          Re: Just a thought

          Just strap a harmonica to the chassis, they you get the Movie\TV Hum that EV's & AI controlled cars.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Just a thought

            It won't work for the same reason so-called "deer whistles" don't work.

            But don't let that stop you from making a profit from the credulous.

        2. jake Silver badge

          Re: Just a thought

          We also have such a street (streets, rather ... the four surrounding Sonoma's Plaza). If the council were to put up such a system, I rather suspect the locals would band together to remove both the loudspeakers and the council.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Just a thought

            Here it's the locals that use the street to bypass a particularly annoying set of traffic lights (when the lights fail the traffic always flows more freely). We've had to fight off some of the council's more ridiculous schemes that would have closed it off. Fortunately the council is more or less broke so we probably have a few years' grace.

        3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Just a thought

          "screeching breaks"

          Dammit - brakes. But breaks might also fit where bones are concerned.

          1. John Robson Silver badge

            Re: Just a thought

            Given your username - I'm smiling :)

            Limited edit time can be a pain.

      2. stiine Silver badge
        Megaphone

        Re: Just a thought

        Here's my list of 'sounds i'd like me EV to make':

        The sound of feet from Fred Filntstone's car.

        The scream from Psycho.

        The music from The Wheel of Fortune.

        The sound of a playing card in bicycle spokes.

        Random Spaceballs' quotes (thanks Randy Pobst and Unplugged Performance)

        The sounds of a 917K's flat 12.

        Just thought of a better one:

        the clop-clop of horseshoes.

        1. Casca Silver badge

          Re: Just a thought

          clop-clop from coconut shells

          1. Missing Semicolon Silver badge

            Re: Just a thought

            Ivor the Engine noise. "Psshtcoo, psshtcoo"

          2. Patched Out

            Re: Just a thought

            With an add-on bonus of randomly ejaculating, "Run away! Run away!"

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: Just a thought

              One of the nice things about an EV is that they are quiet. I'm suspecting that over time where I live there will be quiet EV's and very load muscle cars with modified exhausts to go with the dirt bikes and ATV's on the road with not much in between.

              Growing up I was told to stop, look both ways and listen before stepping into the road, at a crosswalk. I'd walk with my parents who would train me to do that every time. If a ball went into the road, I was to watch it until it go to the other side and then perform the routine. Stopping and watching the ball go all the way until it stopped was a reinforcement to keep me from not blindly chasing after it.

        2. Eponymous Bastard

          Re: Just a thought

          A là Monty Python & The Holy Grail - yes!

      3. HereIAmJH Silver badge

        Re: Just a thought

        I would also use the sound of a particularly knackered diesel engine (just for old times' sake), and a synthesised Ferrari engine.

        I'd love to have an EV that sounded like my old diesel. Nothing like the sounds of an idling 7.3l. Could you add some turbo whine too on acceleration?

    3. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
      Terminator

      Re: Just a thought

      Even better, use an actual Tesla coil.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Just a thought

        I did say with real sparks !!!

        :)

    4. Paul_Murphy

      Re: Just a thought

      I think there should be a choice of noises available for each vehicle to play below 20 mph - I would vote for Ride of the Valkyries or the Imperial March from Star Wars but I'm sure something boring like a beep will be what we get.

      1. Caver_Dave Silver badge

        Re: Just a thought

        I used to have a Honda PHEV is sounded just like the enemy in one of the 1970's (?) scifi series.

        Approaching those people of a certain age always had them turning around to look.

      2. stiine Silver badge

        Re: Just a thought

        I think you'll get a static-like sound for these reasons: (from Tom Scott)

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa28lIGuxq8

        instead of beeping

    5. Thomas Gray

      Re: Just a thought

      They should sound like the Jetson's Air Car.

  5. dgeb

    It's not clear from the article whether the numbers are corrected for number of miles driven *in that environment* - I'd expect that EVs are relatively over-represented in urban miles, and that urban miles would be riskier, so just doing pedestrian casualties per 100 million miles driven would be likely to find an EV:risk correlation even without any causal connection.

    (TFA says that EV was not found to be more dangerous than ICE in rural settings, which would hint at looking at this, but it may just be considering absolute counts in each environment/powertrain vs total mileage/powertrain).

    1. ThatOne Silver badge
      Devil

      > TFA says that EV was not found to be more dangerous than ICE in rural settings

      The issue is likely to be the limited range of EVs: In a rural setting you would need to drive around for a while before you can find a pedestrian to run over. In urban areas you'll find several pedestrians at every intersection, so obviously your total number of hits can be much higher.

      1. KarMann Silver badge
        Trollface

        See also: Death Race 2000

        You mean your score.

        1. yetanotheraoc Silver badge

          Re: See also: Death Race 2000

          "As noted, the reason generally seems to be that electric vehicles are too stealthy."

          Here now, perhaps the researchers are not giving the EV drivers enough credit.

      2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

        In rural settings, more chance of running across animals.

        Badgers, foxes, deer, birds etc pay a high price too

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          So you need a sound generator loaded with the noise of dogs barking. Maybe the odd horn and "Tally Ho!" as well?

      3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        In this rural setting we have winding lanes with tall walls which make the bends blind. Nowadays it's quite frequent to have a car arrive unheralded round the corner a few yards from my gate. In fact, as I've just changed to a hybrid I've just realised it would be a good idea to ensure the ICE doesn't close down as I approach it.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "I'd expect that EVs are relatively over-represented in urban miles, "

      So would I, but worth noting that published analyses show on average EV drivers generally do higher mileages than equivalent ICE vehicles.

      1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
        Stop

        One thing I've noticed in Canada, is the ability to step (or cycle)* into the road without looking due to them having the right of way, the laws of momentum, along with cause & effect take a dim view of this law & govermental given right.

        *In one case soon after I arrived here, I was upstairs when I heard the sound of a youngish body (with his bike) hitting a car, T-Boning it as the car was crossing over the crosswalk. Bike was bent, door panel slightly dented & kid largely OK (Other than the realisation he wasn't immortal after all.) Slow day for the emergency response team as within minutes four cop cars, one fire engine & an ambulance were covering the scene.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          "the laws of momentum, along with cause & effect take a dim view of this law & govermental given right."

          Otherwise known as the law of gross tonnage. At sea, a ship under sail has the right of way. I'd advise not insisting on that right if you would be tacking your sloop across the bow of a container ship. There's no point in being found in the right and also dead or grievously injured.

          1. Lennart Sorensen

            In Canada the right of way for boats is that the right of way is given the the less maneuverable vessel. A container ship in a channel hence has the right of way over a moron in a sail boat. So overall it works out something like powerboats (including jetskies) have to give way to sailboats and canoes and kayaks, which have to give way to freighters and ferries, and everyone has to give way to the fire fighting boats.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I suppose it's fair to point out that using UK data will make the article reflect a British reality, which is that jay walking is not an offence, and is commonly undertaken. In some countries people are supposed to only cross the road where they're told to, and when the signal permit. And in a subset of those countries people actually obey those rules.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Out of curiosity ...

        ... do you have a list of those countries, so I can avoid them?

        Atdhvaannkcse.

    4. Crypto Monad Silver badge

      Exactly that. Why would a pedestrian care how many miles a vehicle has travelled before it hits them? What matters is the proportion of EVs *in their environment*

      Many vehicle miles are covered on motorways, where there are zero pedestrians to hit. But I suspect a higher proportion of those miles are from ICE rather than EV, simply because most EV's aren't well suited to motorway journeys.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        "simply because most EV's aren't well suited to motorway journeys."

        What gave you that idea? Most current EV's have the range to go between two bladders and can certainly accelerate and achieve a high enough speed to be driven on a motorway, and then some.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Have you realised how few collisions there are between cyclists and pedestrians on motorways?

  6. lnLog

    background noise the issue?

    maybe a reason to reduce the background noise of ICE vehicles?

  7. Chris Gray 1
    Stop

    Pedestrian here

    I've never owned a vehicle in my (now rather long) life. Always walked, taken public transit, or mooched rides from friends. Yes, it constrains where I live, but for the last few years walking through wooded-with-creek areas involves a one block walk, then down a path.

    I *DON'T* want noisemakers on EVs. I want all of the remaining ICE vehicles to go away. I like quiet. In this urban setting, speeds are not highway speeds (although I'm surrounded by multilane roads).

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: Pedestrian here

      You want everybody on the planet to rebuild the world to suit you, personally?

      There's a word for that, and it isn't complementary.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Pedestrian here

        Oh, I dunno. He has a point of sorts. The sound of ICE vehicles driving around is a mere blip in the length of human history, and it may go away almost entirely over the next few decades. Do we really want to simulate that noise once it's gone or just be thankful it's been consigned to history? Being in a fairly densely populated urban area, I can say it was a lot quieter locally during the Covid pandemic lockdown when most of the cars were off the road and I'd have no problem with the ambient noise levels returning to that more peaceful state, even if the traffic is all back on the road.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Pedestrian here

          Horses pulling a cart is louder than a standard car, a team of horses even more so,

          1. Casca Silver badge

            Re: Pedestrian here

            They tend to smell a bit also.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Pedestrian here

              Beware of stepping in exhaust!

      2. Filippo Silver badge

        Re: Pedestrian here

        Oh, come on. Wishing for something doesn't mean being a dictator.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Pedestrian here

          If you wanted to ban loud sounds, then you need to start with Motorbikes.

          Yes, I live in a rural area. Yes, I can hear goods trains running perpendicular to me at 4 miles range in the small hours on a very still night.

          But, even in the middle of the day, with all the sounds of an active village, I can hear motorbikes on the road on the other side of the valley - over a mile away.

          1. Caspian Prince

            Re: Pedestrian here

            Except that motorbikes make quite a nice sound. Each to their own.

            Well, not my motorbike, because it's electric, and totally silent. I have to be extraordinarily careful around pedestrians.

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: Pedestrian here

              "Except that motorbikes make quite a nice sound. Each to their own."

              What? Two cylinder choppers with their mufflers removed? Two stroke dirt bikes under constant acceleration? That's the choices around where I live.

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Pedestrian here

            " I can hear motorbikes on the road on the other side of the valley - over a mile away."

            Ditto, and the level of sound seems to be inversely proportional to the power. Tracking the loud buzzing sounds it's surprising how long it takes them to cover any particular stretch or road.

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Pedestrian here

      "I *DON'T* want noisemakers on EVs."

      I'm in the same camp. Once mandated, it will never go away, citations will be handed out when it breaks on your car and after a few close calls, perhaps people will extract their head from their phones and avoid wandering about in front of moving cars. Well, the survivors might, but I'll not give odds.

  8. Stephen Booth

    Experimental bias

    I'm not sure normalising by miles driven is fair here. Users with long distance requirements are more likely to buy ICE. Electric cars are therefore more common in the urban environment were pedestrian collisions are also more likely. Add in low emission zones (even zones announced but not yet in force) and city environments are even more EV heavy than average. To do a fair comparison you need to do a city/country only studies weighting by the proportion of different vehicle types seen in those environments. Its possible this is just another way of saying cities are more dangerous for pedestrians

    1. ThatOne Silver badge
      Stop

      Re: Experimental bias

      > I'm not sure normalising by miles driven is fair here.

      You missed part of the article here: It does say "unearthed "strong evidence that E-HE vehicles were three times more dangerous than ICE vehicles in urban environments."

      1. stiine Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: Experimental bias

        'in urban environments' which is where 99.9% of pedestrians are...making this a meaningless statistic worthy of derision.

        1. ThatOne Silver badge

          Re: Experimental bias

          Well, your argument would make sense if the topic was what was hit. But the actual topic was rather "more accidents in urban environments".

          But I'm aware this is a religion war, and logic has nothing to do here. *shrug*

          (Didn't downvote you though.)

      2. Stephen Booth

        Re: Experimental bias

        Yes that was the *conclusion* they drew. I'm questioning if their methodology justifies that conclusion. Its hard to tell from the linked article. However as far as I can say they analysed collisions from urban environments but drew car mileage from national car registrations, So I think this must be miles driven in *any* environment not just in urban environments. If I am right in my hypothesis that EVs are over represented in an urban environment then this will be reflected in the collision figures but not in the miles driven figures resulting in a distortion of the results.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Experimental bias

          EVs are well represented in urban areas that charge some vehicles for LEZ access, and EVs go for free.

    2. tekHedd

      Most accidents...

      it's similar to "most accidents occur close to home, so always wear your seatbelt even if you're just backing out of the driveway!"

      Since "home" is one endpoint of nearly every trip, statistically there are going to be more accidents there than at random destinations. Unless you're a long haul trucker. :)

  9. ThatOne Silver badge
    WTF?

    Age? Surely not

    > They also suggested that drivers of electric vehicles may be younger than those of ICE vehicles, and wondered whether this might have any bearing on the alarming results.

    I don't believe the age thing. Teenagers usually lack the money to buy an EV. EVs are mostly driven (from what I saw) by young professionals or retired people, who both would have their driving license for several years already.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Age? Surely not

      When I was a "young professional" I drove a Pug GTi, and far too often I drove it like a complete twat, so if EV's are over-represented amongst today's yuppies then I think it's a fair call to reference age. "Young drivers" doesn't necessarily mean 17 year old chavs.

      And I must say I do quite often see Teslas being driven in an unwise or inattentive manner.

      1. ThatOne Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Age? Surely not

        > And I must say I do quite often see Teslas being driven in an unwise or inattentive manner.

        Nah, that's Tesla drivers, that's a special species: They own the road (it's apparently included in the car's price).

        1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Age? Surely not

          Riders of electric vehicles may be younger than those of ICE vehicles.

          FTFY

          We have had a EV scooter hire thing going on in many urban locations around here (Not so much during the winter months). though this year they are not so prevalent as they once were, but seeing these things are "hired" & Left for pickup at the point of arrival (GPS, phone payment app) given the cost of the only (short) time I used one I guess parents wised up & stopped pre-paying for 10 year olds to drive these things around car-parks.

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Age? Surely not

          "They own the road (it's apparently included in the car's price)."

          You don't see that on the web page until you click and un-click a few boxes and get to see the real price that will feature in the financing documentation.

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Age? Surely not

      "I don't believe the age thing. Teenagers usually lack the money to buy an EV."

      There's been a huge growth in vehicle leasing in the UK and younger drivers are more likely to rent "Car as a Service" because renting everything, owning nothing seems to what so many are growing up with and accepting these days. And that lease cost is the same no matter how young, old or experienced you are. Only the insurance costs vary. So I would not find it too incredible to find a significant portion of younger drivers leasing EVs.

      1. Richard 12 Silver badge

        Re: Age? Surely not

        In the UK at least, "young professionals" are becoming increasingly unlikely to hold a driving licence at all.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Age? Surely not

          "In the UK at least, "young professionals" are becoming increasingly unlikely to hold a driving licence at all"

          If you live in London, San Francisco, Paris or another large dense city, the cost to park a car can be as much as the rent on a small flat. If you can't afford that, there's no point in maintaining a license and insurance on the chance you might get to drive.

  10. John Robson Silver badge

    Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

    That's the headline... as any cyclist will tell you this is not a new problem - the difference now is the risk is to the podestrian.

    1. IGotOut Silver badge

      Re: Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

      Obligatory response.

      Now if we could only get the cyclists to understand what a fucking red light means.

      Joking aside. You get good and bad types in every scenario.

      1. NXM Silver badge

        Re: Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

        I find most cyclists pleasant, careful people who appreciate the rural area they're cycling through.

        Having said that, there are some real standout twats who think your job is to just get out of their way. One in particular was on a speed trial (IE, nothing else in the entire world matters more than speed), came barreling round a blind corner in the middle of a narrow road which happened to have some gravel on, and blam, off he came. He gained severe concussion, broke several bones including both collar bones and some ribs, and peeled half his face off. All despite wearing a helmet. 10 years later he still hasn't fully recovered, and never will.

        Road users need to appreciate they, and everyone else, are not immortal.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

          The fact that time trials are still held on open roads astounds me.

          I know it's not easy to get roads closed etc... but it's a completely legal form of road racing, and that doesn't marry with the concept of road safety in any way.

          Audaxes are fundamentally different, sportifs are sort of half way...

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

            "The fact that time trials are still held on open roads astounds me."

            What's more astounding is that nobody did a reccy to look for blind corners, poor road surfaces/gravel and other hazards prior to the race/trial. There are lots of places with very little traffic that could be just fine.

            1. John Robson Silver badge

              Re: Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

              "There are lots of places with very little traffic that could be just fine."

              The difference between very little and none is quite important though.

    2. SundogUK Silver badge

      Re: Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

      I have never been hit by a car. I have been hit by cyclists twice. Both times I was walking on the pavement minding my own business and so was the cyclist. You can take the piss out of Tesla/BMW/Audi drivers as much as you like but the most arrogant users on the roads are cyclists.

      1. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

        I've been hit by more cars driving on the pavement than I have by cyclists on the pavement (where they generally are out of fear for their lives caused by inconsiderate motorists)

        There are arrogant users of all vehicle types - but only one category causes death and destruction on an industrial scale...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

        I have knocked off cyclist and scooter riders a few times when I have been walking on a pavement. I just remind them that unless it is signed for dual use then they are illegally on the path, and they always apologise. Recent case law in the UK backs that up.

        Anon: as running into me is like running into a brick sh1t house anyway!

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

          There is a difference between being an outhouse and people bouncing off you and deliberately knocking people off.

          The legality of scooters (not e scooters, but push scooters) isn't particularly clear, it depends how the courts interpret "a carriage of any description" (1835 highways act).

          If a scooter is a carriage, then are roller skates? a skateboard? a wheelchair? a mobility scooter?

          Cars were defined as carriages in 1903, bicycles in 1888, but scooters haven't been yet (as far as I know).

          I have no issue with anyone using pavements considerately - but that's the key. It's actually really hard to ride a two wheeled bike slow enough, much easier on three wheels. But the moment you get off and push you have less control over the bike, take up much more room, and aren't protecting other pavement users from any of the pointy out bits, or the greasy bits.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

            "It's actually really hard to ride a two wheeled bike slow enough,"

            Way back when I could ride a bike, I did a lot. I could fairly crawl along if I needed due to all of the practice. If you see a stopped cyclist that rides all the time, they might just wiggle a bit and never put a foot down.

            1. John Robson Silver badge

              Re: Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

              Track stands require a fixie, or a slope.

              I know it's possible, but the speed at which many people amble on a pavement is slower than the majority of people can ride - that was my only point, it's hard to actually be going slow enough.

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

            "It's actually really hard to ride a two wheeled bike slow enough"

            One of the Greek lecturers in QUB could ride amazingly slowly - on the road. They had all (it was a small department so not many) probably come from Oxford so they were all cyclists but he was outstanding.

        2. Azamino
          Windows

          Re: Research finds pedestrians don't pay attention when crossing road

          Of course you have Anon ....

  11. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    EV or hybrid? It depends on the type of hybrid but for some the car will be driven with ICE over about 20mph so even in urban environments they'll be providing engine noise some of the time.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Depends on the "urban environment". In some cases, getting up as fast as nausea-inducing and heady speeds of 20MPH is only on a really good day :-)

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        OK, let's make that "built-up areas outside Wales".

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Average speed in London is 12mph, rising to 19 in outer London...

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            I've avoided it for years.

            OTOH the land past my house is categorised as a built-up area although it's a moot point as to where it ceases to be so. It's on one of several possible routes that will take you between a road with a 30 limit and a road at national speed limit without passing any speed limit signs of either sort.

  12. tekHedd

    Screeeeeeeeeeee

    200 years later, we finally learn to make cars that aren't noisy and stinky. And immediately put a noisemaker in them that sounds like fingernails on a blackboard. What next, a stink generator?

    It's simple economics: high frequency screeching can be made with a small speaker and low power. Sonically pleasing low frequency sounds require a big speaker and heavy amplifiers. Expect newer cars to keep making harsher, screechier noises to hit the legally required volume level. For the children.

    1. John Robson Silver badge

      Re: Screeeeeeeeeeee

      More importantly we know that broadband audio is much easier to locate...

      Though I agree, why do we feel the need to make vehicles noisy at all? We should be reiterating the "look, listen, look again"

      It does remove one source of information for those who are blind... but I don't generally find the blind "just nipping across the road" - they tend to use crossings for various reasons.

      1. ThatOne Silver badge

        Re: Screeeeeeeeeeee

        It's obviously cleaner to get run over at a crossing...

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Screeeeeeeeeeee

          I'd be interested to see if the increase in collisions was at crossings, or elsewhere...

          My suspicion, as a motorist and a cyclist, is that it's "elsewhere", when pedestrians don't hear anything and assume the road is therefore empty.

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Screeeeeeeeeeee

        "It does remove one source of information for those who are blind... but I don't generally find the blind "just nipping across the road" - they tend to use crossings for various reasons."

        It's postulated that people that are blind or have limited vision often compensate with a better hearing acuity. Since they need to understand their environment through sound, the brain gets more practice. When somebody pulls up to my house, I hear their tires on the gravel more than an engine. The same goes for quiet cars on the street. I don't hear them as soon as I might see them, but my sight is still good enough for average use and drummers aren't usually known for their sensitive hearing.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Screeeeeeeeeeee

          Pretty sure it's more than a postulate... similarly the profoundly deaf end up processing more peripheral visual clues.

          "drummers aren't usually known for their sensitive hearing."

          Must avoid making band jokes.... must avoid making band jokes....

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge
            Joke

            Re: Screeeeeeeeeeee

            "Must avoid making band jokes.... must avoid making band jokes...."

            I'm not leaving until you pay for the pizza.

    2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

      Re: Screeeeeeeeeeee

      Well, children will be able to hear the high frequencies. The oldies, not so much

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Screeeeeeeeeeee

      "For the children."

      Oooooh, I see. It's "for the children". Great. I have a solution. Those "teen repellent" audio things they put in places where they don't want young thugs and yob congregating, set at a frequency high enough to annoy them and that we oldies can't even hear. Solves both issues, ie small cheap speakers and no bother to the rest of us :-)

    4. Caver_Dave Silver badge

      Re: 200 years later - WFT!

      "200 years later, we finally learn to make cars that aren't noisy and stinky." tekHedd

      First electric car production - Paris (1881), London (1882) and Boston (1888)

      By 1912 33,842 electric cars were registered in the US!

      First petrol cars in production - Benz (1885), Daimler (1886)

      Yes, Lenoir, France (1862) and Marcus, Austria (1864) did experiment before, and are often quoted, but never went further than experimenting.

      The first automobile to exceed 100 km (60 miles) per hour was an electric (Jenatzy 1899)

      If the electric car had been developed to the same extent as petrol, then the battery would be about the size of an adult fist and be swapped every 1000 miles!

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: 200 years later - WFT!

        "f the electric car had been developed to the same extent as petrol, then the battery would be about the size of an adult fist and be swapped every 1000 miles!"

        Your assignment, to be handed in on Monday, is to calculate the energy needed to accelerate a 2 ton mass to 100kph, travel with assumed frictional losses and aerodynamic drag detailed at the end of the chapter for 300km. Take that data and calculate the energy density for a theoretical battery with the approximate volume of your own fist. All work must be shown for credit.

        Compare and contrast your answer with common industrial explosives. (Hint: Sitting on a box of C4 will seem like the safest thing in the world)

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: 200 years later - WFT!

          "Sitting on a box of C4 will seem like the safest thing in the world"

          Sitting on a box of C4 is as safe as sitting on a box of chocolate.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: 200 years later - WFT!

            "Sitting on a box of C4 is as safe as sitting on a box of chocolate."

            That's why I wrote "seem like". The average punter isn't going to feel as confident in the C4 not going off as you, I or somebody that knows how stable it is.

            I'm not going to do the work, but I'd not be surprised if the volumetric energy being stored is close to that of petroleum based fuels with the downside that petrol isn't much of a problem in the absence of an oxidizer where a battery is self-contained danger.

        2. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: 200 years later - WFT!

          Sitting on C4 is very safe - you can microwave it, chuck it on a fire, shoot it, drop it onto concrete....

          300 km is a little under 200 miles, so about 50kWh of energy needed (less if you have an efficient vehicle)

          Highest density batteries are LiAir at about 10kWh/kg (bloody hell!), so you could already do that in 5kg of material (a little larger than a regular fist) - they're rubbish in other ways though.

          LiIon gets to a little shy of .5kWh/kg, so a bit over 100 kg of battery, though recent research has hit 0.7kWh/kg (71kg needed)

          That density has tripled in the last ten years...

          A typical fuel tank (which can't safely be shot, set on fire, microwaved etc) contains ~15 gallons or 450kWh of energy... which suddenly doesn't seem so safe.

          To go 200 miles you'll need ~5 gallons (UK efficiency) or ~7 gallons (US efficiency) that's 150-210 kWh, as opposed to 50kWh or less for an electric drivetrain.

  13. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. KSM-AZ

      It's called a VESS. They do make artificial noises, which makes this article even more bogus that it appears on the surface.

      This whole premise "sounds good", but upon closer inspection falls apart. We all know heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones, it just makes sense!

      1. Richard 12 Silver badge

        No they don't

        Only new ones do, because as TFA says, it's only been a requirement since 2019.

        I should also point out that worldwide car sales greatly reduced in 2020 for some reason, and in the UK have yet to return to 2019 levels.

  14. Badgerfruit

    Pedestrians.

    Stop. Look. Listen.

    Even without engine noise, tyres make a sound.

    Please don't add fo the already too high noise pollution just to save a couple of brain dead fools that just walk out into a road.

    1. ThatOne Silver badge

      Tires make noise above a given speed, and only audible if the general environment isn't too noisy. Which means rather posh suburbs than congested downtown.

      I agree about the noise pollution, but a little "engine" noise wouldn't change anything. At road speeds the tires would be louder than that anyway, and at walk speed it makes sure no EV can surprise you. There are also blind people, who can't really spot an EV except by sound. With silent EVs they are totally dependent on the EV drivers' ability and focus... Uh-oh.

      Another solution would be to hang a bell on EVs.

      1. cosymart

        Why not go the whole hog and return to the man with the red flag. Good for unemployment and slows down the traffic, not too sure about their life expectancy (-:

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        There's also the noise of the tyres thumping into the pot-holes.

      3. John Robson Silver badge

        "only audible if the general environment isn't too noisy"

        You mean you want the cars to be noisier so they can be heard over the other cars?

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. jake Silver badge
        1. yetanotheraoc Silver badge

          Clearly a programmer

          Off-by-one error, twice.

          1. jake Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: Clearly a programmer

            Of course. Ta. Have a cold one.

            I suspect I'd break my fingers typoing that accidentally.

      2. John Robson Silver badge

        The majority of those noises are already motor vehicles...

        So you're asking to make cars louder so they can be heard over the noise of other cars...

  15. KSM-AZ
    FAIL

    I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

    ** This is total BS **. People have been spewing this garbage since the Prius/Hybrid days. A normal modern ICE vehicle isn't loud enough to hear either. If you are in a parking lot there is enough background noise around you are not going to hear a small 4 cyl ICE with a reasonable muffer. If you have an F250 Diesel, that is one thing, but it's totally ridiculous. They started with the backup beep shit on BIG GIANT DUMP TRUCKS! because people didn't hear them coming. If you can't hear a loud ass dump truck, why are we obsessing over an EV?

    There are plenty of very quiet vehicles on the road. If you are not looking walking thru a parking lot it's on you.

    1. cornetman Silver badge

      Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

      Yeah, this kinda occurred to me when reading the article.

      Modern petrol engine cars are already extremely quiet, particularly when moving at slow speed around parking areas and inner-city streets. Sounds to me like something else is going on here. They're not as silent as EVs but there isn't much in it, and if a pedestrian is wearing ear buds or staring at a phone, I seriously doubt that it would make much of a difference. The sounds that EVs are forced to make at low speed around here in Vancouver make them louder than the equivalent ICE cars without "noise assistance".

      In fairness to the researchers, they did mention that other factors may be at play so there is that.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

        "Sounds to me like something else is going on here. "

        Observation suggests that EV drivers pay less attention to their surroundings than ICE drivers.

        Around here on long road-trips, kids have a new game: Spot the Tesla Driver Doing Something Stupid (same rules as Spot the Amazon Driver Doing Something Stupid).

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

          on long road-trips, kids have a new game: Spot the Tesla Driver Doing Something Stupid

          You need a long road trip for that?

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

          "Observation suggests that EV drivers pay less attention to their surroundings than ICE drivers."

          Ok, now you are going to be biased against Tesla since most other EV's styling blends right into the aesthetic noise. A 4 door Kia EV sedan looks like the petrol version, a Toyota, a Honda, etc. Kia also doesn't have loads of people banging away through their InstaPintaTwitFace account that the car drives itself and is "ten times safer than a human driver".

    2. NickHolland

      Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

      well, I see you said what I was about to say...

      Small modern gas cars are VERY, much quieter than an urban environment at "near-humans-walking-in-front-of-them" speeds. I've had gas powered cars sneak up on me a few times in parking lots and was surprised to see it was a boring, ICE. Not an EV, not a hybrid.

      SO IF there is a problem (and there may well be), let's address the REAL problem, not single out a subset.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

        It’s true that ICE cars engines are near silent when not generating power.

        Our car on electric makes a sci-fi spaceship noise when reversing or low speed, because it’s not the usual sound it gets attention and people look.

        It’s not loud, it’s more like a sort of electronic soft chord sound.

    3. PRR Silver badge

      Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

      > spewing this garbage since ...... A normal modern ICE vehicle isn't loud enough to hear either.

      +1. Back in 1982 I had just repaired my 1967 Cougar, 5L V-8, with semi-hot camshaft. Eased it into the neighborhood. Got behind kids walking in the street, say 3MPH, and they did not hear me. Goosed the engine in N and they jumped.

      Before that I rode bicycles a LOT. On country roads. I realized that at those speeds car-noise was ALL tire-hiss, until an impatient driver FLOORED it to pass me. In my youth, I could track the distance and direction and weight of all cars on the road with me just by ear. Now I have lost so much hearing that I look 5 times before crossing to my mailbox. But I know a lot of going-deaf old men (and slightly older women) are in denial of their hearing loss.

    4. yetanotheraoc Silver badge

      Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

      "They started with the backup beep shit on BIG GIANT DUMP TRUCKS! because people didn't hear them coming."

      Is that so? I thought it was because people didn't expect them to be backing up (even though that's what dump trucks do) and would keep closing on them while looking right at them.

    5. Filippo Silver badge

      Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

      I suspect the problem is what other people mentioned here: correlation not causation. EVs are overrepresented in urban environments, because they are less suited to long trips compared to ICEs. And pedestrian hits are also overrepresented in urban environments, because people don't usually walk on motorways.

      The combination of these two facts mean that EVs are going to be overrepresented in hitting pedestrians, even if there is absolutely no cause-effect relationship at all. It's just maths.

      Researchers can compensate for this, but it's unclear whether these researchers did so.

      Correct understanding of statistics is of critical importance when designing policy. For example, if I'm right, then raising noisemaker volume is useless, and the best thing you can do to lower EV pedestrian hit ratio compared to ICEs would be... improve EV range and charge times (but, of course, that metric is useless to begin with, so there's no point). It might be counterintuitive, but reality doesn't owe us intuitiveness.

      Abusing statistics is one of the primary ways misinformation happens.

    6. Ian Johnston Silver badge

      Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

      At very low speeds you are right. However at normal urban driving speeds of ~20mph IC cars are definitely louder, or average, than electric ones.

    7. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

      "They started with the backup beep shit on BIG GIANT DUMP TRUCKS!"

      If you don't sense a BGDT coming towards you at not too great of a speed, wellllll.........

      1. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

        Well, possibly you're blind.

        But more importantly it was done so that operators didn't need to look where they were driving - that used to be the job of a banksman.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

          "Well, possibly you're blind."

          You can't sense oncoming heavy vehicles with your eyes closed? That might explain lots ...

          "But more importantly it was done so that operators didn't need to look where they were driving"

          No. They still have to know where they are driving. The audible alert is an additional tool, not a replacement for anything. As are walkie-talkies between the spotter (banksman, rigger, dogman, etc.) and driver (skinner, operator, whatever).

          1. John Robson Silver badge

            Re: I call BS! This research is anecdotal at best, intentionally slanted at worst

            So you've got perfect direction and speed detection without sight?

            The beeper is a hamfisted effort to put the responsibility of safety on vulnerable people rather than in the hands of the people who are creating danger.

            It used to be that a banksman would assist in manoeuvring - which meant that there were no blind spots, and no need to make a racket to hope that you don't reverse into anything.

  16. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge
    Megaphone

    I call BS²

    Certainly from From 1 July 2021 - that's AFTER the time period this survey covered, making it now irrelevant - all new electric and hybrid vehicles registered in the UK are required to have a sound generator (AVAS) installed to make a sound similar to a conventional engine. An AVAS is required to sound when electric or hybrid vehicles travel at speeds under 12.4 mph (20 km/h). After 3 years it's functioning is part of the MOT. No soundee no MOTee

    1. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: I call BS²

      They don’t all sound like a conventional engine.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: I call BS²

        More like the sound of running on a flat tyre.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Chz

        Re: I call BS²

        According to this video, Cupras sound like marketing wank.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9woCmUboQek

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: I call BS²

      "After 3 years it's functioning is part of the MOT. No soundee no MOTee"

      Then you better hope that there are third party replacements that will meet spec since an OEM part will be very dear.

      Personally, I'd install a switch to disable the external speaker/sounder and only have it on for an inspection.

      1. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: I call BS²

        I suspect (but haven't checked) that it will be required to work only if it was originally fitted - as with many other things.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: I call BS²

          He said "replacements", which suggests he means if the original part broke, thus needing replacing before passing the MOT.

          1. John Robson Silver badge

            Re: I call BS²

            The original comment about the requirement for an MOT was not particularly clear...

            Yes, a replacement is indicative of an OEM part existing, but the "no sound, no MOT" would only apply to vehicles which had had one at time of sale.

            Given the amount of FUD around about people being forced to change their vehicle (not true), or boiler (not true), this one is also out there as an easily refutable, but commonly misrepresented piece of FUD.

  17. DS999 Silver badge
    Stop

    I hope they require a standard sound

    We'd quickly regret allowing car owners to customize the sound their car makes.

    1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: I hope they require a standard sound

      Crazy Frog?

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: I hope they require a standard sound

        Or Hamster Dance.

        (Yeah, it's a generational thing LOL)

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: I hope they require a standard sound

          It's a small world. (Think of the children!)

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: I hope they require a standard sound

          For a Tesla, it will be flatulence. No odds on which CEO would push for that.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I hope they require a standard sound

        You have won the Interwebs today !!!

        'Crazy Frog' should be the standard :)

        1. DS999 Silver badge

          Re: I hope they require a standard sound

          How about Skibidi Toilet?

          1. Will Godfrey Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: I hope they require a standard sound

            I'd quite like the Captain Pugwash' theme

  18. busli

    lucky escape

    I had a near miss when walking into the road a couple of years ago whilst attempting to cross the road. I was one more step from being struck by an EV. I'm an old git and up until then had relied on hearing to determine any cars about. Lesson learned and now use eyes more than ears.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: lucky escape

      As an old git now, I was taught how to cross roads when very young, both by parents and then later at school, it's Stop, Look, Listen, Look again, that last "look again" often either forgotten or no longer taught and goes in tandem with the Look Right, Look Left, Look Right Again (may be the opposite in other parts of the world), the emphasis always being not only on looking, but looking in the direction traffic is coming from where you step out, a second time just before you step out.

      For those younger readers, this is one of ways of surviving long enough to become and old git. Take heed!! :-)

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: lucky escape

        "As an old git now, I was taught how to cross roads when very young, both by parents and then later at school"

        You had parents that took an interest? Luxury!

  19. Luke Worm

    Maybe it would be advantageous to educate the pedestrians about this changed and changing environment.

    EVs are silent and there will be more and more of them. Pedestrians, with everyone else, need to modify their behaviour accordingly.

  20. martinusher Silver badge

    Mainly a parking lot problem

    Electric cars are a potential problem in parking lots because they can move without any real sign that they're doing so. Its not that they don't make any noise -- some have noisemakers that operate at low speeds (the next door neighbor's Audi sounds like a spaceship from a 1950's low budget sci-fir movie) but the bigger issue is that they just move, there's no preliminary engine starting etc. that provide subtle aural and visual clues. This isn't t the fault of the vehicle so much as the driver.

    The good news is that they're usually cars rather than the slab fronted SUVs or trucks that are common here (where drivers can't see you and if it hits you you go under rather than over).

    On the street there's no difference between an electric and IC car. A decent modern IC car is almost as quiet as an electric, its tire and wind noise that dominates, not exhaust.

  21. agurney

    In the 1950s and 60s the Glasgow trolley buses were known as "silent death".

    Sounds like not much has changed.

  22. Bebu
    Windows

    Spectrum?

    I noticed a few days in a parking lot ago an EV just behind me. I had heard it approaching from behind but the quality of its sound deceived me into thinking it was further away. I thought at the time the audio spectrum of the car was perhaps responsible. The rotating parts of an ICE might produce lower frequency beats. The difference in the degree of attenuation over short distances of different frequencies might provide an unconscious distance (and velocity?) cue.

    The spatial intensity distribution of the sound might also be sufficiently different between ICEs and EVs.

    Drivers in this part of the world are piss poor at best so tesla twats don't actually stand out from the crowd here.

  23. Winkypop Silver badge

    Noise maker

    As I’ve said before, just add a noise maker that announces quite audibly: prat, prat, prat, prat, prat….

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    the more expensive the vehicle, the more likely the driver is an asshole

    And electric vehicles tend to be on the more expensive side. Is someone in their Elonmobile going to wait for Grandma to cross the street?

  25. Giles C Silver badge

    Appropriate sounds

    Yesterday, as I walked out the office I heard a truck announce “this vehicle is reversing”, looking round there was only a truck going forward and turning left??

    That was confusing… seems that something must have gone wrong with the machine.

    1. Will Godfrey Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Appropriate sounds

      Interesting. I had something similar a few weeks ago. Artic announcing it was turning left, while it was actually turning right.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Appropriate sounds

        "Artic announcing it was turning left, while it was actually turning right."

        In only one language? Wouldn't get approval in Quebec or California.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Appropriate sounds

          The announcement was probably in a universal language known as "Turn Signal", which is fully approved in both California and Quebec

          Sadly, they no longer teach that language in schools, and in fact from here it would seem that many drivers have erroneously been told that it has been depreciated.

          Hint for all you knuckleheads: It doesn't matter how many computers there are in your car, IT doesn't drive YOU, YOU have to drive IT.

    2. stiine Silver badge

      Re: Appropriate sounds

      Awesome, it never occured to me that all EVs should lie... I love it.

  26. Big_Boomer

    Quiet ICE

    I drive a 20 year old ICE car that is just as quiet as an EV and I have become used to braindeads-in-headphones stepping out in front of me. I do try to not hit them, so far successfully. When I was a yoof we were taught "The Green Cross Code" by Alvin Stardust, Tufty, and many others. Did they stop teaching road safety in schools at some point? These days is seems that the "entitled" think that they are immune to 2 tons of car doing 30Mph and that they are not in any way expected to be awake, alert, and aware of what is going on around them and to behave accordingly. I've seen braindeads walk into bus shelters, lampposts, and parked cars. One such idiot got up and swore profusely at the offending parked car as if it had deliberately teleported into his path.

    If these braindeads can't be bothered to make sure that they are safe, then that is a self correcting problem. Sooner or later they will get hit by a car. If they are lucky they will get hit, injured, suffer weeks/months of pain and will learn to look next time. If they are unlucky then they are no longer a problem. I am not advocating the car (ICE, EV, or other) but living life as if you are immune/invincible is asking to get dead regardless of your environment. Unlike in computer games, there is no respawn in real life.

    1. Caver_Dave Silver badge
      Childcatcher

      Re: Quiet ICE

      David Prowse was the "Green Cross Code Man" for my generation.

      1. Blofeld's Cat

        Re: Quiet ICE

        I find your lack of "Tufty the squirrel" disturbing ...

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: Quiet ICE

        This is not the Green Cross Droid you are looking for ...

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Quiet ICE

      "I've seen braindeads walk into bus shelters, lampposts, and parked cars. "

      It doesn't take much effort to find videos of people going straight over barriers and down a manhole while staring at their phone. Cellar access in a sidewalk is another target of the digitally obsessed. Very popular in NY.

  27. dwrolfe

    Report is a bit dubious...

    No hard evidence that EV's take noticeably longer to stop - A Tesla M3 has more or less the same stopping distance as a BMW 3 series:

    https://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-model3-consumer-reports-20180529-story.html

    Increased mass of EV of limited relevance when hitting pedestrians - An 85KG person will lose against a car, whether it weighs 1,200KG or 1,900KG. Basic applied maths at work here.

    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Report is a bit dubious...

      "An 85KG person will lose against a car, whether it weighs 1,200KG or 1,900KG. Basic applied maths at work here."

      The threshold is in the tens of kilos to produce an injury (density and shape are important too). Unplanned contact with the ground is a problem regardless. Plus or minus a few hundred kgs in a car isn't much of a factor other than braking distance if the driver has the time and awareness to try and stop.

      Somebody on a bike trying to ride with no hands while playing with their phone needs to be watched very carefully. If they hit something in the road, there's a 50/50 change they'll swerve into traffic as they try to keep balance.

  28. Ian Johnston Silver badge

    As someone who walks at least four miles on rural roads every day, I have observed that there is no significant difference between the noise of electric and IC cars at any sort of speed. It's very different in towns.

  29. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Who funded the 'research'?

    This looks rather like enemy action from the ICE industry.

  30. andy gibson

    Not a new story

    2014: Electric cars must make noise, rules European Commission

    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business/electric-cars-must-make-noise-rules-european-commission

    Even earlier:

    "Calls to ensure electric and hybrids were noisy enough to hear when moving at low speeds began in 2010, and rules to ensure vehicles complied were first drafted in 2016."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49726841

  31. rafff

    Too quiet?

    "consistent with the theory that E-HE vehicles are less audible to pedestrians in urban areas where background ambient noise levels are higher."

    So as we get rid of the noisy IC vehicles polluting the atmosphere with both fumes and noise, the problem will go away.

    Incidentally, when I were a lad I worked in sound and vibration research. Our studies showed that the typical city dweller loses 100Hz off the top of his hearing for each year of life. That was over 50 years ago; cities have only become noisier since then, and the noise on certain London Tube lines is a distinct health hazard.

  32. bed

    Old Data

    The research and report is based on old limited data - up to 2018 I think, so of limited use other than as clickbate.

  33. Spamfast
    Flame

    The stupid leading the impressionable.

    My front door opens onto a one-way street that feeds in from the local high street.

    It's not the silent cars that bother me. It's the idiot cyclists riding the wrong way, often in pairs with their bike-riding offspring following. Clearly the Highway Code doesn't apply to modern families.

    I'm hoping that one day I'll see one pair of said parents painfully spreadeagled across the windscreen of a police car that's just turned in to the blind junction at the end. If I get to hear them having their car licences revoked for the offence, even better.

    That way the kids might learn why everyone is subject to the rules of the road, not just other people.

    1. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: The stupid leading the impressionable.

      Our cyclists can be a nuisance but the real problem is electric bikes. They're not a problem as machines but they do attract riders who don't quite get traffic rules. So what you end up with is a sort of motorcycle that travels at motorcycle speeds (in urban areas) that is ridden by someone who thinks that conventions like traffic flow, traffic signals and the like don't apply to them (and, needless to say, pedestrian paths also double as high speed cycleways).

      As ever its not the machine that's the problem but the rider / driver.

  34. Azamino
    Unhappy

    Pretty sure that the pedestrians were struck by the drivers of the vehicles involved, unless these were the genuine self-driving article. Shocking how society ducks assigning responsibility for bad driving, always putting blame on victims or insisting that the sun was dazzling the driver. Imagine a world where knife crime sentences were reduced because the victim wasn't wearing a stab proof vest, that is where we are in the UK with driving offences.

  35. Yet Another Commentard

    I work at a University in the UK that does quite a bit of research into EVs. I'm not part of that team.

    Years back this was raised as a problem, that humans are now conditioned to listen at least as much as see when crossing the road. This leads to issues with pedestrians stepping in front of cyclists (in my scenario here think about on an open road, not a cyclist jumping a red light or similar) as well as EVs. Due to physics the former tends to do less damage, but still hurts.

    So, to the point. There was a poll about what sound EVs should emit to balance warning pedestrians and cyclists of their proximity with having a nice ride within the EV.

    I suggested the TIE Fighter noise.

    I am still bitter it was dismissed as 'silly'.

    1. stiine Silver badge

      Not silly, but the royalty payments to George Lucas would have been crippling.

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      "This leads to issues with pedestrians stepping in front of cyclists"

      Bikes have all sorts of bits sticking out so if you get knocked down and fall on the bike, and the cyclist I expect, it could be ugly. Getting knocked down can lead to broken bones, concussions and even death in some cases so a bike can be just as dangerous as a car. Should it be a requirement that cyclists have a sound system on the bike playing very rude gangsta rap? That's often very offensive so people might be more apt to take notice.

  36. Persona Silver badge

    I have a mild hybrid. In car parks it's invariably being powered by the electric motor and makes a weird jangly sound like an alien space ship from a 1950's B movie. Does it do it deliberately or due to to some design issue? Either way a chap in the car park this afternoon had a narrow escape when he chose to walk behind my car as I was reversing out. He leapt away smartly warned by the strange sound.

  37. Kev99 Silver badge

    Did the researchers take into account the fools who think looking at their cell phones is more important than where they are walking? Did they take into account tire noise which is, in my expererience, substantially louder than engine noise, excepting the goofs with the coffee can mufflers on their ricers or driving Dodge Hemis.

  38. This post has been deleted by its author

  39. frankyunderwood123

    Jokes about paying attention...

    There's a lot of comments here along the lines of pedestrians should be paying more attention.

    I'm absolutely inclined to agree with that, but we all know that humans in general are often rubbish at paying attention.

    Even those who think they are amazingly attentive are often suffering from a Dunning–Kruger effect.

    The fact remains that at low speeds, some EV's are near silent and humans use both vision and hearing to safely navigate around their environment.

    I can imagine all sorts of scenarios where even very attentive people are at risk.

    Right now, the amount of EV's on the road is still relatively low, it'll be interesting to see how this safety concern pans out.

    Probably the most worrying are SUV's, hybrid or full electric, due to their height and mass.

    Getting hit by one of those at even 20mph is going to seriously damage you - and they really are almost silent at that speed.

  40. Eponymous Bastard
    Mushroom

    Deaf

    I wonder how deaf people manage.

    If you walk around with noise cancelling ear buds / headphones in any environment then I think Darwinism will prove an effective solution to population growth but in particular if it targets the young, fertile and stupid.

    I'm not sure I've even experienced the Swift noise yet and I have no interest in hearing it.

    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Deaf

      "I wonder how deaf people manage."

      They'll be relying on vision exclusively to navigate the environment so you'd expect that they would be looking around much more since that's all they have. It's the hard of thinking people that can hear, rely on that whether they realize it or not and block it off with ear buds or headphones while at the same time aren't looking around. I just watched a video on YT where a police officer walked up to a car while a woman was neck deep in her phone at a traffic light and he stood there for some time before she noticed him. EV's making noise won't cure that.

  41. xyz Silver badge

    Stirring the pot here but...

    A pack of lycra festooned cyclists vs assorted EVs in a car park. See who survives. I'm hoping neither. BYOP. *

    * Bring your own popcorn.

  42. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge
    Coat

    It's a different matter with crows

    Round these parts the powers that be have noticed that most roadkill crows have been done in by motorbikes (I think they even went as far as checking paint marks on beaks and claws).

    They engaged an animal behaviour expert who spent some time looking at how crows behave on a road. He realised that they'd often work as a group, with one less interested in pecking at food and appearing to keep an eye open for threats.

    Apparently when the crow "on watch" saw a car coming it would start calling out "caaa caaa" and the crows would up and away.

    When it saw a bike coming it couldn't warn the other crows as it couldn't call out "bike bike"

  43. Geoff (inMelbourne)

    Common sense? Yeah, we've heard of it.

    Perhaps it isn't necessary for EVs to make annoying noise pollution *all* of the time.

    Perhaps someone could invent some kind of 'loud warning noise-maker device', operated by the driver of the EV when required. and fit those devices to EVs.

    They could be called, oh, I duuno, a 'car horn'.

    Together with autonomous braking, that should save the lives of the headphones-in pedestrians. And the damage to the cars.

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