back to article US watchdog chases Waymo robocars to catch violations

The US National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA) on Monday opened an investigation into self-driving car maker Waymo following reports that its robocars have not been complying with traffic laws. The NHTSA's Office of Defects Investigation (ODI) said [PDF] it has received reports of 22 incidents in which …

  1. IGotOut Silver badge

    Oh got to love US tech bros

    "At Waymo we currently serve over 50 thousand weekly trips for our riders in some of the most challenging and complex environments,"'

    I take it these twats have never left the North American landmass?

    If you think the US grid layout is difficult, then you are well and truly screwed when it comes to much of Europe, Africa and Asia.

    1. xanadu42

      Re: Oh got to love US tech bros

      I have a feeling that a kangaroo bouncing over a road is just a tiny bit more challenging and complex...

      1. FILE_ID.DIZ
        FAIL

        Re: Oh got to love US tech bros

        Or even deal with this thing called "weather".

        They're operating in some of the most weather-less cities in the US; Phoenix, San Francisco, Los Angeles.

        Numpkins.

      2. UnknownUnknown

        Re: Oh got to love US tech bros

        Deer and all manner of other animals are common hazards in the USA. Just not in the current pilot areas.

    2. steviebuk Silver badge

      Re: Oh got to love US tech bros

      And think of these cars going down a country farm lane in the UK, they'll be screwed. I doubt they'd even stop and would try and push the other car out their way.

    3. jmch Silver badge

      Re: Oh got to love US tech bros

      "If you think the US grid layout is difficult...."

      In most of the US urban sprawl, i's not so much the layout as the functionality. In most of Europe, you have streets (low-speed, with shops, pedestrian and cycle traffic, odd layouts especially in old villages/towns) , and you have roads (generally high(er) speed, no or few pedestrians, few designated on/off points and connected with roundabouts). Roads (which could be highways, but also A-roads and B-roads) are relatively easy to navigate. Streets, much more challenging. But most distances are covered on roads.

      But in the US urban sprawl, you have a vast number of 'stroads' (look it up), which are the equivalent of an A-road, except with 3-lanes each way, a side-access to a strip mall, car wash or burger joint every 200m, connected at junctions with left-turning lanes that might or might not have traffic lights. So you get fast traffic mixed in with slow traffic, cars merging in and out all the time, cross traffic across your lane at junctions. A large proportion of US traffic passes through this sort of mess. Sure, the grid layout is helpful to determine direction, but that's not the problem!

    4. Sceptic Tank Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Oh got to love US tech bros

      That's what I was thinking. Over here in the southern part of africa, the unexpected is the norm. Pavements are available for bypassing a traffic jam; somewhere in front you can just merge back into the traffic if you need to and someone will give you a gap. The left turn lane of a 5 lane street can be used to turn right if you don't want to get stuck in a queue. The turning lane at a traffic light can be used to bypass a red traffic light if other waiting vehicles are blocking your way. Anywhere is a good place to stop and on/offload passengers. Pedestrians may take as much time as they require to cross a busy street or intersection. Round traffic signs with numbers on them give an indication of what the designer of the road thought would be a safe speed limit; it's just there to decorate the pavement. At least 3 - 4 vehicles can still cross an intersection after the light turned red; amber has no special meaning. At an intersection with two turn lanes, you decide in which lane you want to remain after you took the turn. After the light went green is a good time to start a conversation with someone standing on the street corner; vehicles behind you will just wait. Flashing arrows on traffic lights mean that only one vehicle may cross the intersection before the light turns red again.

      Etc., etc.

      I was threatened with a screwdriver once for not wanting to give way to a minibus taxi that overtook me in the emergency lane and wanted to push in ahead of me.

      Some rough stuff here. Not sore what L.A. is like.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Oh got to love US tech bros

        >Some rough stuff here. Not sore what L.A. is like.

        They don't even allow flamethrowers here

    5. Sceptic Tank Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Oh got to love US tech bros

      I almost forgot: traffic conditions in the south of africa: a box of potato crisps blows off the back of a truck on a 5-lane 120 km/h highway. You may abruptly stop in the middle lane to go and collect the loot. Alternatively: a light delivery vehicle carrying boxes of mangoes capsizes on the highway; park your BMW X5, or similar, close to it in the freeway lane of your choice and go and collect some free fruit.

  2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

    NHTSA

    At this rate, the NHTSA are going to need way more inspectors to keep track and investigate all these incidents

    1. hoola Silver badge

      Re: NHTSA

      Maybe, and this is just a random thought.....

      They need some form of inspector in the driving seat who can record the incidents, maybe even intervene to prevent them from happening.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Police: You realize you just hit a stationary object?

    Carbot: I just got new brakes and didn’t want to use them.

    Police: have you been drinking?

    Carbot: My dev is going through a divorce.

    1. b0llchit Silver badge
      Coat

      Police: Please exit the vehicle.

      Carbot: I can not. I am an integral part of this car.

      Police: [draws gun] Get out now!

      Carbot: I am sorry sir, I cannot comply.

      Police: [fires barrage of large rounds into car]

      1. Robin

        Police: Your move, creep.

        1. Munehaus

          "Police: Your move, creep."

          Car drives off to get next passenger.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Good job all the waymo cars are white

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

  4. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Stop

    "the number is statistically insignificant"

    That is not an argument.

    You are responsible for a multi-ton mass driving at speed. If the number is above zero, there is a problem.

    It's great that the number pales in comparison to the number of total trips, but I would hardly consider myself getting run into as statistically insignificant. You have an edge case. Correct for it.

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: "the number is statistically insignificant"

      "the number is statistically insignificant"

      Reminds me of Post Office scandal. The number of affected post masters was small in comparison to the total using the system... so the system must be okay.

    2. jmch Silver badge

      Re: "the number is statistically insignificant"

      " If the number is above zero, there is a problem..."

      Well, I agree that they should be striving for zero. But to be fair, with humans at the wheel that number is far, far above zero. So as a first order, that number should be less than the human-driver one, and we can take continuous improvement from there. So absolutely, find the edge case and correct it, and keep spreading the cover and reducing the edges

      1. DJO Silver badge

        Re: "the number is statistically insignificant"

        It's not just the number of incidents but the severity of them which is important. This is a value the companies seem rather reticent to discuss.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: "the number is statistically insignificant"

          And likewise, when comparing the human driver caused accidents, looking at the actual causes. Is the car better than good and attentive driver or just better than an "average" driver, which includes the drunks, drug-addled and those driving illegally, ie no licence, no insurance, unroadworthy vehicle etc. All those "impaired" drivers/vehicles in accidents are already breaking laws and should not be on the road and therefore not counted, IMHO. Fleets of robo-taxis, by definition, should always be acting within the law at all times. And if robo-taxis are sharing data and effectively a hive-mind, then if one breaks the law, they all break the law and all get punished.

          In the UK, you can get a driving ban for traffic offences depending severity or accumulation of offences in a sliding time window. Bans of more than 56 days require you to reapply for a driving license and may, depending the reason for the ban, involve taking a driving tests or even an extended driving test. I'd like to think this same set of rules will apply to robo-taxis/self-driving cars and potentially and entire fleet if there's a "hive-mind" like central control.

    3. hoola Silver badge

      Re: "the number is statistically insignificant"

      Equally there is responsibility.

      If a Waymo vehicle has a traffic violation who is fined?

      How many times can that entity be fined?

      This all needs resolving so there is accountability and responsibility. Just because this is driven by tech responsibility, accountability including legal & civil actions had to be resolved so there are real people who have to named.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: "the number is statistically insignificant"

        "so there are real people who have to named."

        Any and everyone in the top 5% of "compensation", ie salary + benefits (including share options, benefits "in kind" etc). Will they do?

  5. abend0c4 Silver badge

    I'm yet to be convinced that even a perfect self-driving vehicle would produce the economic returns to justify the investment - even in the haulage sector it would take a considerable time to replace the vehicle fleet and I doubt robotaxis are a replacement for public transport except in limited cases. And a vehicle that needs regular updates to deal with new traffic signs and regulations is unlikely to have much of a lifespan - based on experience of other products containing software - which in itself undermines the economics. But a vehicle that's almost-but-not-quite capable of autonomous driving is the worst of both worlds and it seems like the closer you get to genuine autonomy, the more expensive it becomes to overcome the remaining hurdles. Is it all now just the pursuit of sunk costs?

    1. lglethal Silver badge
      Facepalm

      No its the pursuit of the Unicorn called "We'll make billions!".

      All of these companies are pursuing this with vigour, but all are very hand wavy on how they will actually make those billions. Something, something, haulage. Something, something, robotaxis.

      Even if they came out tomorrow with a proven, amazing, all singing and dancing, absolutely perfect self driving car. How many people would actually by one? I dont actually think the numbers would be that amazing. And with the costs of running such systems, the legal frameworks needed to allow such things on the road, insurance liability, human sentiment, etc. It's the old case of the underwear Gnomes.

      Step 1 - Collect Underpants. Sorry Build Perfect Self-driving car.

      Step 2 - ????

      Step 3 - Profit!!!

  6. David Hicklin Silver badge

    This is the big problem

    ""in certain cases when supervised by an in-vehicle test driver, the ADS disengaged in the moments just before an incident occurred,"

    So the system got into an illegal situation and crapped out handing it over to the test driver with just milliseconds to react and a "Hey, you take over and sort out this mess"

    And that will always be a problem with self driving cars - they hand back control when the human has no situational awareness and they are expected to sort out the mess.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: This is the big problem

      And the "supervising...test driver" is fully aware and hopefully properly trained in using this partially functioning beta system and was unable to prevent the accident. Now imagine that in production, on the road with people who believe in the marketing!

  7. Frank Bitterlich

    You sure they are automated?

    "The incidents include collisions with objects like gates, chains, parked vehicles, as well as showing an apparent disregard for general traffic safety. [...] including its vehicles entering construction zones or heading toward oncoming traffic, [...]"

    To me that sound like typical taxi driver behaviour. Are you sure they were talking about automated cars?

    /s

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