back to article TikTok ban could escalate US-China trade war, ex-White House CIO tells The Reg

It didn't seem America's divest-or-ban bill for TikTok was going to make it into law when we last spoke with former White House chief information officer Theresa Payton – but law it now is.  With President Biden signing off that legislation and ByteDance considering its options and appeals, we caught up with Payton to chat …

  1. Khaptain Silver badge

    Who will actually lose out

    This is an application used to play short videos to those with a short attention span, what is the fuss about, or is there something else behind the scenes that we are not being told about.

    I don't really believe that it's about security or tracking as there are already a multitude of applications doing that. I understand the theory that it might be getting used to "brainwash" the younger generations but I have yet to read any serious study that has been done in these regards.

    I must admit that I have never even seen TikTok outside of some of the videos re-broadcast on YT.

    1. Helcat

      Re: Who will actually lose out

      Considering the rather poor judgement trends that are pushed on social media, and in particular Tik Tok, I'd suggest a ban would be a good thing for mental, physical and social health.

      Although... it would also reduce the candidacy for the Darwin awards. Bit of a tough call there.

      1. A1B2C3D4E5

        Re: Who will actually lose out

        You could say the same about YT shorts, Twitter and Insta Reels - but probably won't ;)

        1. GraXXoR

          Re: Who will actually lose out

          Why did you add, “but probably won’t?”

          Feels like you’re implying something..

          1. TheRealDeal

            Re: Who will actually lose out

            I'm sure if you sit down and think about it the answer will come to you ;)

            1. GraXXoR

              Re: Who will actually lose out

              nope... spent a while thinking on it, while sipping a beverage at my local bar, but still not entirely sure why they said "I'm sure you won't"

        2. Helcat

          Re: Who will actually lose out

          I'd argue that Twitter is definitely Social Media, along with Facebook (which you missed). I would include You Tube shorts as it seems to follow the same trend as Tik Tok. No idea what Insta Reels is and not really interested enough to go look it up.

          So... I already have included them, so what makes you think I hadn't and wouldn't?

    2. Gene Cash Silver badge

      Re: Who will actually lose out

      It's kind of a weird little subculture.

      It's basically if Twitter was video.

      A lot of it is "here's my viewpoint on why you are wrong and you suck" videos or stuff like "you aren't autistic, my son is, and you're taking resources and care away from him" to name a recent example a friend is pissed about.

      There's a lot of people posting stolen YouTube videos. They don't care about watermarks or things like the "bigclive.com" sticker Big Clive has on his workbench. Copyright isn't even a thing, because it's China.

      A lot of it is people doing dangerous things and barely not losing a hand or catching on fire - or sometime they do, and maybe it'll be taken down if enough people complain, but probably not. It's China. Edit: like a recent example where a guy lost his hand to a table saw and the house security cam recorded it. No fucks given there.

      And of course a lot of it is memes, to a much bigger extent than YouTube.

    3. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Megaphone

      Re: Who will actually lose out

      This is an application used to play short videos to those with a short attention span, what is the fuss about, or is there something else behind the scenes that we are not being told about.

      Not only that but it seems they are all in tall/skinny "narrow minded" aspect whenever people post this stuff on other platforms, complete with a TickTickBOOM watermark.

      * These amateur videos are basically crap

      * NO serious photographer or cinematographer EVAR uses tall/skinny 'narrow mind' 4-incher aspect ratios

      * WideScreen was invented because it is preferable to 4x3, let alone tall/skinny 'narrow mind' aspect

      * Our eyes are side to side, NOT on top of one another. Humans see in WIDE SCREEN mode.

      * Important "Big Picture" details are lost with tall/skinny aspect and constantly moving camera position

      In short these videos are CRAP, distort what's actually happening, and only appeal to 4-inchers (i.e. those who view EVERYTHING through a 4 inch phone screen)

      Good Riddance to TickTickBOOM.

      1. Yet Another Hierachial Anonynmous Coward

        Re: Who will actually lose out

        how I wish I could upvote you 1000 times......

        Portrait mode video. "the 4 inchers" (that's a great term - thanks for introducing it to me)

        I just assume those who use portrait mode to show video are narrowminded and stupid. Too stupid to realise that our eyes (and every other creature on earth*) are side by side for a reason -to give us wider perspective of what is going on around us (ie. incoming threats on the horizon, in ye olde days). In this day and age a wider perspective is just as important as ever. Too stupid to realise TV screens are horizontal for a good reason too - we need more definition in the horizontal direction than vertical - very few objects are perfectly horizontal to fall in between scan lines, but lots of edges are properly vertical and need definition.

        * I can't think of any that have vertically stacked eyes, not even those to whom height is important. ie birds.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Who will actually lose out

          Ask your Ctrl-P widget why *landscape* is a horizontal format and *portrait* is a vertical one. Also note, that one does not call landscapes on one's phone, one calls people. Hence the smartphone form factor. Said otherwise: we stand upright; maybe if millipedes had invented smartphones, there would be no issue: portrait and landscape would both be horizontal.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Who will actually lose out

        WideScreen was invented because it is preferable to 4x3, let alone tall/skinny 'narrow mind' aspect

        Firstly it was wider than 3:2 not 4:3 because it comes from cinema not TV.

        Actually it was because the seating on the ground level in talkie houses is cheaper, but those at the sides don't actually have screen in front of them, which they don't really like.

        Wide screen lets you have wide, low, cheap, theatres, even if the edges are 90% just filler background.

        We have wide screen computers because the manufacturers of laptops decided that we wanted to watch DVDs on them. Even though 90% of computer tasks scroll in the vertical direction, and actually call for longer screens

      3. druck Silver badge

        Re: Who will actually lose out

        Say no to Vertical Video Syndrome https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dechvhb0Meo

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Who will actually lose out

      There is a certain country in the Middle East that is quite upset that TikTok is NOT censoring videos of their genocidal behaviour, and is affecting the POTUS' re-election chances. US based companies seem quite happy with the censorship.

      1. TheRealDeal

        Re: Who will actually lose out

        Ah yes - the choice between a geriatric who gets his lines wrong on occasion and doesn't know which way to go at the White House and the other who is currently on trial and likes to grab women by the **** - great choice - good luck with that!

        Who are you gonna choose?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

          Yes, Biden and Trump compare poorly to senile Chinese leaders:

          Mao was responsible for around 40 to 80 million victims due to starvation, persecution, prison labour, and mass executions.

          Xi Jinping being a dangerous psychopath looking forward to step into his footsteps.

          1. Not A Anonymous Coward

            Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

            Mao was a number of years ago.

            Trump and Biden are now - and Xi might well be a dangerous psychopath - but right now in the White House you have someone who is supporting genocide happening in another country - so should he be a certiffied psychopath?

            Surely not - No one in the West can do any wrong right? All those jails only have Johnny Foreigners in right? lol

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

              "right now in the White House you have someone who is supporting genocide happening in another country"

              What do you suggest, that the Dems start a fight with the AIPAC? Get real. This is election year.

              Situation is outrageous but these are the only cards we have in hand at the moment. Israel has controlled the American political landscape to her advantage for the last 60 years at least. That can't change overnight.

              1. Not A Anonymous Coward

                Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                My point being neither the Democrats or Republicans will have a war with AIPAC ever - the US political system is bought and paid for - or should I not have said that because the US is great and free and brave and full of justice and FREEDOM and GUNS (but it's all the bad Johnny Foreigners committing all the crime honest!) - get off my neck - I can't breath

                When you state "Situation is outrageous but these are the only cards we have in hand at the moment" - if America was that great this situation should have never come to pass - Americans are just as human as the rest of the ... human race (sorry to burst your bubble but yeah America is not perfect - that's why it says in the Constitution "to form a MORE perfect union") - they realised even back then it wasn't perfect - although this isn't what the US likes to cram down the throat of the world now.

                Oh - and whilst you so casually dismiss this state of affairs there are 10s of thousands dying - mostly women and children - but I guess the US is used to that from their time in Afghanistan and Iraq when Operation FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY wiped out a wedding party on the top of a mountain by accident - or when other war crimes were covered up by not disallowing the press from being embedded into a unit as they were in the first Gulf war, but casually stating that they couldn't guarantee their safety in a war zone and not allowing them to be embedded in the second - thereby ensuring any war crimes were a lot easier to cover up.

                Sorry - we shouldn't mention that right - cause America is great

                I don't know how educated you are, but in Hamlet there is this quote:

                "To be, or not to be, that is the question:

                Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer

                The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,

                Or to take arms against a sea of troubles

                And by opposing end them."

                Even when Shakespeare was about there were decisions like this that had to be made - the difference is at that time it appears as if they knew their limitations - something which the US seems to have lost.

                You might think I'm having a dig at the US here - not at all. The idea of the US is great - what it has become though - is a perversion of what it once was - and my point - as I've made before - is humans are not perfect - and this logically implies ALL countries are not perfect as countries are collections of people - so the US shoving its point of view down other peoples throats can really smack of hyprocrisy of the worst kind

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                  So let's try to unpack all that incoherent and pedantic drivel (I'm glad Shakespeare is still taught in your school, BTW).

                  According to you, America should prevent Israel's land grab in Palestine but, at the same time, America should give imperialist China a free hand it in the West Pacific and South China Sea. Remember Japan tried it before. And failed. It did take a bit of persuasion but they realized their mistake eventually.

                  1. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

                    Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                    I'm glad the war of indepdence and the founding fathers et al is still taught in yours. Keep waving that flag - remember - when the US does it it's patriotic - when other countries do it, it's evil and dangerous.

                    "According to you, America should prevent Israel's land grab in Palestine but, at the same time, America should give imperialist China a free hand it in the West Pacific and South China Sea. Remember Japan tried it before. And failed. It did take a bit of persuasion but they realized their mistake eventually."

                    I can see now why when you post you post under "Anonymous Coward" - where did I say any of that? Personally I would be quite happy to watch the world destroy itself in an orgy of violence - I don't believe humans deseve to exist - we're a blight on this universe and deserve to be exterminated - and yes - I do also include myself in that statement - death is the ultimate in equal opportunities.

                    What I do object to is the fake indignation - naye HYPOCRISY - the US takes on the global stage and then attempts to pass it off as the moral and courageous thing to do when it's all about self interest.

                    "Remember Japan tried it before. And failed. It did take a bit of persuasion but they realized their mistake eventually."

                    I take that as a subtle hint the US has nuclear weapons? So does China - and they can launch it to arrive from a direction the US is not expecting - so what?

                    As I said above, I would love nothing more than this world be destroyed in a nuclear orgy of light - as long as we all go together - all for one and one for all

                    1. DoctorNine

                      Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                      "..As I said above, I would love nothing more than this world be destroyed in a nuclear orgy of light - as long as we all go together - all for one and one for all..."

                      The fascinating thing about nihilistic impulses, such as the one you indulge in above, is that they are most pronounced in juveniles and the mentally ill. Certainly not one of the Founding Fathers. Those of us who have experienced a bit more of the ups and downs of life, usually can be found cleaning up the messes created by those who wallow in such drivel. We get the job by default.

                      Perhaps it's best that I point out that a large majority of the population of Earth is simply trying to get through the day, and would rather have an extra 15 minute break from work, with perhaps some nice calming tea, than actively advocate for nuclear annihilation on computer forums such as The Register. But you be you. Maybe you can go have a beer with Putin or Xi at the pub after work, and operationalize your plans for world domination, complete with a solid final solution of human extermination if you don't get your way. Seems a bit daft to me. And undemocratic. Still, there is no stopping you if you have nukes, right? Everything is all 'poof and bang' with you lot.

                      Dear me...

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                        This guy is just a troll who has gone through 6 different handles throughout the last 4 days. All posts of these 6 profiles only comment on 4 or 5 articles related to Huawei and China sanctions.

                        OneOfTheFoundingFathers (id 104206)

                        Not A[sic] Anonymous Coward (id 104203)

                        TheRealDeal (id 104198)

                        A1B2C3D4E5 (id 104194)

                        while 1 do {} (id 104193)

                        pavlecom (id 104182)

                        He has admitted it in this post.

                        1. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

                          Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                          Yet you post as an anonymous coward and accused me of lying (which I've proved I haven't) - and haven't even felt the need to do the decent thing and apologise.

                          By the way - pavlecom isn't me ;)

                          1. Anonymous Coward
                            Anonymous Coward

                            Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                            > By the way - pavlecom isn't me ;)

                            Exact. Thanks for the implicit admission of the other avatars.

                            1. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

                              Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                              No problem - but you still haven't apologised because you can't face the fact you might have got someting wrong

                              There's a name for people like you

                              You've also accused me of being part of the CCP and also being 16 years old and a schoolkid - you can't have it both ways (or maybe you can in your world) - which part of the Western Intelligence apparatus are you, and why do you persist in posting as an anonymous coward? Is it because you are one or that you are not principled enough to stand behind your thought processes by putting an unique name to your profile?

                              1. Anonymous Coward
                                Anonymous Coward

                                Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                                Cat got your tongue Anonymous Coward?

                            2. Anonymous Coward
                              Anonymous Coward

                              Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                              Also - you did miss one of prior usernams .... can ya guess which one?

                          2. seldom

                            Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                            Never reply to AC's, please. They either have some inside knowledge to contribute which, because of their position, means they want to remain anonymous and therefore know more than you or I ever will. Or, like on this thread, they or he/she/it/them are/is are complete wanker.

                            1. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

                              Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                              Too true @seldom - it is said they talk to down to their level and then beat you with experience

                      2. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

                        Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                        The chances of me launching a nuclear weapon ending life on Earth is something in the order of -ve infinity ^ infinity.

                        It's interesting you only mention me meeting Putin and Xi.

                        You didn't mention Netanyahiu (oops - they haven't publically admitted to owning any nuclear bombs right) or the US (who has more nuclear bombs than anyone else in the world)

                        Purely down to mathematical probability based on who has the most nuclear bombs - I know where I'd put my money

          2. Not A Anonymous Coward

            Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

            Keep sipping the kool aid son, you might end up the way all the other people who have eaten Canderl, Nutrasweet et al have ended up

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

              Breathe!

              1. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

                Re: At least americans have the right to choose, unlike Chinese

                Good call I was a bit too quick and passionate in my response - downvote was not from me

        2. gandalfcn Silver badge

          Re: Who will actually lose out

          Ah yes - the choice between a man who has bested the cream of the MAGA/GOP and the other who is a geriatric who gets his lines wrong all the time and didn't know which way to go at the White House, incited a treasonous insurrection, most probably sold state secrets ($2bn) and is currently on trial and likes to grab women by the **** - no brainer

    5. doublelayer Silver badge

      Re: Who will actually lose out

      People have lots of theories. They say it's about social media not wanting competition. They say it's about some content moderation decision. They say it's an attempt to affect the election. They say there is a real propaganda or privacy risk. I don't think any of these really do it.

      Politicians have decided that China is dangerous, and this is a thing that a lot of people use which was created in China, so it must be dangerous. Exactly how it is dangerous and what you could do about it that would best reduce the danger are problems politicians don't want to bother with. Whether this law is legal is another one they didn't spend much time on. In their minds, it is a threat and they've done their duty in responding to it, and that's the level of detail they care about. It could actually be a serious threat, it could be completely harmless, or it could have potential problems that are being exaggerated, and it wouldn't matter to the people passing the law. They probably are thinking about whether they can use this as an argument when campaigning, but even this is not their primary concern.

    6. Necrohamster Silver badge

      Re: Who will actually lose out

      "This is an application used to play short videos to those with a short attention span.."

      That description could just as easily apply to Facebook, YouTube or any number of things.

      America's politicians love "Reds under the bed" hysteria for some reason. I suppose it helps to distract peoples' minds from the real problems in their society.

  2. martinusher Silver badge

    A sideshow in the overall economic war

    Pay attention to what Blinken is saying in his visit to China. He's effectively saying that unless China dismantles its advanced industrial base and isolates Russia we're going to implement more sanctions. If you combine this with the threat to sanction countries that don't trade in dollars coming from the Republican nominee you can pretty much see how this is going to play out. (Words like "impotent" and "wet noodle" come to mind.)

    ByteDance is just a bit player in this game. Unfortunately, its also one that directly impacts a bloc of voters (and is currently in use to reach them by campaigns, including Biden's). "Tripling tariffs" on imported steel and other threatened and existing actions just puts prices up a bit, something that will just get lost in the general inflationary noise that's relatively easy to explain away.

    (What we really need is a new set of politicians. Ones that are not living in a long gone world.) (But then we're not alone -- the more I read about the UK's political problems the more I think "Maybe its not that bad over here"!)

    PS -- I'm not a TikToc user; I personally don't like social media, I regard it as evil.

    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

      Pay attention to what Blinken is saying in his visit to China. He's effectively saying that unless China dismantles its advanced industrial base and isolates Russia we're going to implement more sanctions. If you combine this with the threat to sanction countries that don't trade in dollars coming from the Republican nominee you can pretty much see how this is going to play out. (Words like "impotent" and "wet noodle" come to mind.)

      Also pay attention to the reception Blinken got when he landed in China. No red carpet, no honour guard, just a minor bureaucrat. A rather pointed and calculated snub.

      ByteDance is just a bit player in this game. Unfortunately, its also one that directly impacts a bloc of voters (and is currently in use to reach them by campaigns, including Biden's). "Tripling tariffs" on imported steel and other threatened and existing actions just puts prices up a bit, something that will just get lost in the general inflationary noise that's relatively easy to explain away.

      Yup. I get the feeling it's a bit populist but the real danger is the act gives the Executive powers to do the same thing to any other website or app that it finds objectionable. It's being done under the guise of national security, but of course preventing the spread of 'misinformation'. Given it's popularity amongst younger voters, who might be more inclined to vote Democrat, I think it's a move that could easily backfire. Voters may not care if the price of rebar goes up a dollar, but will notice their favourite app vanishing. Longer term, it's whether the US (and EU) could weather a trade war with China given our dependency on China's products.

      PS -- I'm not a TikToc user; I personally don't like social media, I regard it as evil.

      Agreed. I think more needs to be done to stop some of the harmful or malicious 'challenges' but there's also a huge problem with social media being used to push social control.

      1. A1B2C3D4E5

        Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

        There is opportunity for the US though.

        China has set out a series of "red lines" to the US - I believe rather than being warned away, this will cause the US to intentionally go after those particular points in the name of freedom and democracy ostenisbly, but in order to provoke a military response from China which has not been in an active war for a substantial period of time and lack real world military experience - the West has active military experience in conflict zones for the past decade at least.

        Once a conflict and win over China has been attained, the US can then effectively write off its debt to China which will effectively give it a spending boost by however much USTs that China holds.

        It's not a bad plan to be fair - let's see what happens

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Tiktok needs you!

          You've got a gift for conspiracy theories. Keep it up.

          1. TheRealDeal

            Re: Tiktok needs you!

            You're only paranoid until you find out they really are out to get you

            1. Grogan Silver badge

              Re: Tiktok needs you!

              My paranoia has kept me out of prisons and morgues for 60 years, so it stays :-)

              1. seldom

                Re: Tiktok needs you!

                My lack of paranoia has given me many interesting experiences. Mostly not illegal.

                Volunteer visiting prisoners who don't get visits otherwise is not easy, but maybe helps someone.

                It's not always fun.

                Maybe you should try it.

        2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

          China has set out a series of "red lines" to the US - I believe rather than being warned away, this will cause the US to intentionally go after those particular points in the name of freedom and democracy ostenisbly, but in order to provoke a military response from China which has not been in an active war for a substantial period of time and lack real world military experience - the West has active military experience in conflict zones for the past decade at least.

          I don't think that's happening, no matter how much some neocons might wish it. I think it's more a combination of bad diplomacy and desperation. Blinken's visit was poorly timed given the aid to Taiwan and China's economy has been rapidly advancing whilst the US (and West in general) has been stagnating. Hence Yellen and Blinken's visits and demands that China stop outcompeting. Sanctions have a bad habit of blowing back and would probably harm the US more than China given China can just trade elsewhere.

          I also doubt it'll go as far as conflict, despite all the sabre rattling. Obvious place would be Taiwan, but that's a very long supply line for the US, and the situation with Ukraine has shown how badly we estimated Russiia and China's capabilities.

          1. GraXXoR

            Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

            Western stagnation? You mean except the US which is doing quite well post COVID?

            The UK leaving EU has been a bit of a brick around the neck for a few countries, on the other hand.

            1. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

              Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

              @GraXXoR A couple of articles for you:

              https://www.fxstreet.com/analysis/the-federal-reserves-345-trillion-problem-202404261906

              https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hxVPrjL050g

              Would you like to reconsider your comment "the US which is doing quite well post COVID"?

              Or is all this Chinese propaganda and actually the US is doing quite well actually?

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

            > "China's economy has been rapidly advancing whilst the US (and West in general) has been stagnating"

            For God sake, read the news. You got it all inverted. China is fighting various crisis (housing, financial, youth unemployment, deflation...) whilst USA's main problem is extremely low unemployment. More cloud cuckoo land reasoning.

            1. TheRealDeal

              Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

              Yes - Anonymous Coward is right here - the US is doing well.

              Let's see exactly how well when the next round of UST auctions are released by the Fed - let's see who buys them - the US debt/interest is now so high that they can't even begin to look at realistically paying it back - but yeah - the US is doing well ...

              Anyone got an American flag - I feel the need to wave it wildly

            2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

              For God sake, read the news. You got it all inverted.

              I do, and I don't.

              China is fighting various crisis (housing, financial, youth unemployment, deflation...) whilst USA's main problem is extremely low unemployment. More cloud cuckoo land reasoning.

              Yet Blinken was whining about China's 'overproduction' problem. But the US (and West in general) is also facing similar problems, although it's inflation pushing costs up rather than deflatiion reducing costs. Sanctions will just make this worse. The US also has a housing crisis with housing being increasingly unaffordable, youthh unemployment and is growing debt at a rapid rate. Employment figures are also being massaged, ie recent jobs report claimed it added 303,000 jobs. Over the last year, the US has cut 1.3m full-time jobs, while adding 1.09m part-time jobs. March cut 6,000 FTEs and added 691,000 part time. And a growth sector was the public sector adding 71,000 jobs.

              So basically the US has been losing full-time jobs and growing part-time for over a year now. See also all the tech sector layoffs being reported here, with Tesla being one of the latest...

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

                I don't think you understand the figures you cite. You're also focusing on March report from the Bureau of Statistics, which is a tiny, not significant, part of the picture. You just googled something to respond, and picked some irrelevant mishmash.

                - China's deflation is due to weaker international demand, which is the result of the ongoing decoupling. This decoupling started during COVID crisis when shipping was stalled, demand was weak, and Chinese lock-down meant disrupted supply. Especially because China ended up its suicidal zero-covid policy one full year after the end of the pandemic in its largest client countries. Decoupling was then further fueled by the CCP's insane FDI-hostile policies and geopolitical threats triggering massive disinvestment from developed economies (and ensuing local stock exchange bear market). End result: the Chinese PPI has been negative for at least one year now; margins are squeezed; bankruptcies and unemployment are skyrocketing and social unrest is brewing up in the whole country. All of this on a backdrop of Yuan depreciation and accelerating demographic bomb. Dependency rate on the increase means slower growth with little prospect of compensating workforce decrease with organic productivity gains. The central government can only manage this degrading situation through fiscal policies, which will result into increased debt (debt as share of revenue is already > 200%). Worse even, China, being a very xenophobic society, cannot rely on immigration to compensate its abysmal replacement rate. India, the next superpower, is watching gleefully.

                - US does not have a "similar" but opposite problems, switching from China to Mexican, Indian, Vietnamese and domestic supply chains is heating up the economy. Unemployment passed from 6% to 4% in 2 years despite massive immigration. Inflation is proving harder to tame as net capital inflows balance FED tight monetary policy. Rates are still not coming down. US dollar reigns supreme against most currencies, attracting yet more capital inflow.

                1. seldom

                  Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

                  AC, it must be true.

                2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

                  I don't think you understand the figures you cite. You're also focusing on March report from the Bureau of Statistics, which is a tiny, not significant, part of the picture. You just googled something to respond, and picked some irrelevant mishmash.

                  I quoted figures from the US authority pointing out the issues shown in the actual employment figures, ie reduction in FTE positions and replacement with part-time positions. Which was in response to your trolling-

                  whilst USA's main problem is extremely low unemployment

                  Which you know because you 'read the news', which oddly enough focused on the 303,000 jobs number, not the details behind that number. But then details have never been your thing.

                  - China's deflation is due to weaker international demand, which is the result of the ongoing decoupling. This decoupling started during COVID crisis when shipping was stalled, demand was weak, and Chinese lock-down meant disrupted supply.

                  This affected all countries that chose to lock-down in response to the panicdemic. Including the US and EU, where thousands of jobs were lost and businesses went bust.

                  Decoupling was then further fueled by the CCP's insane FDI-hostile policies and geopolitical threats triggering massive disinvestment from developed economies (and ensuing local stock exchange bear market).

                  You mean sanctions, and anti-China rhetoric? This is likely to get worse, and Blinken got another rather pointed snub on his departure from China.

                  The central government can only manage this degrading situation through fiscal policies, which will result into increased debt (debt as share of revenue is already > 200%)

                  And US debt is... ?

                  Inflation is proving harder to tame as net capital inflows balance FED tight monetary policy. Rates are still not coming down. US dollar reigns supreme against most currencies, attracting yet more capital inflow.

                  Assuming de-dollarisation doesn't continue. But inflation is a problem for the US, and Bidenomics is unable to fix this. Pump prices have been increasing, energy costs are increasing, bankruptcies are increasing, CRE is cratering, capital flight from major US cities and states like NYC and California is increasing. There's also political unrest and a dumbing down of America, eg campus protests. But the big unrest is likely to happen around November.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

                    You live on a different planet than the rest of us.

                    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                      Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

                      You live on a different planet than the rest of us.

                      Nope. Mine is also full of trolls, like you. Perhaps you should try some different news sources other than CNN, MSNBC, the Bbc.. The President says Xi is a dictator, Bidenomics are working, and his relative was eaten by cannibals. All are lies, and the world isn't that impressed with current US diplomacy.

                      1. Casca Silver badge

                        Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

                        lol, the troll calling others troll. Thats rich.

                      2. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

                        > Perhaps you should try some different news sources other than CNN, MSNBC, the Bbc..

                        Any suggestions?

                        CGTN? Russia Today? Press TV? Sputnik International? Breitbart? Fox News?

                        I'm sure I'm missing 90% of what you watch. Tell us more.

                        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                          Re: A trollshow in the overall economic war

                          I'm sure I'm missing 90% of what you watch. Tell us more.

                          You're a smart troll, I'm sure you can work it out. But just ponder on the wisdom of our political elite. They celebrated the birthday of an Austrian housepainter with a $60bn bung to the OUN and US weapons makers. A few days later, Ukraine's WLB demands a 10-yr payment plan. Which the US will extend it's 'REPO' Act that's already stolen a bunch of Russian money by creating a syndicated loan 'guaranteed' by around $320bn of other seized Russian funds. Securing a loan using stolen money is.. novel, even by the standards of Bidenomics.

                          1. Anonymous Coward
                            Anonymous Coward

                            Re: A trollshow in the overall economic war

                            > the birthday of an Austrian housepainter

                            Who else than JE, in this forum, pays attention to this kind of things? Did you celebrate with some readout from your bedside table book?

                          2. Casca Silver badge

                            Re: A trollshow in the overall economic war

                            Its sad that you cant block morons like you.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

            > Sanctions have a bad habit of blowing back and would probably harm the US more than China given China can just trade elsewhere.

            Now you'll need to explain why Chinese exports are falling YoY since October 2022 and why Fitch as just downgraded China to negative outlook.

            1. TheRealDeal

              Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

              I can answer this - it's because of all the negative press that the US has been spouting about China and about the need to onshore ....

          4. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

            Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

            I particularly enjoyed watching Lindsey Graham on TV saying it was good that Russians were dying and Ukranians living.

            A very easy thing to say when you don't care about the people who are dying - I bet he would feel very differently if his son or father was on the front and having their blood spilt.

            Currently for politicians, there is no downside to calling for war - I think it should be made policy that anyone who calls for war as a politician should be made to send someone to the front that they love/care about.

            Sounds very democratic to me :)

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

              > I think it should be made policy that anyone who calls for war as a politician should be made to send someone to the front that they love/care about.

              Loved ones might disagree, though. Why not go themselves? After all, as Paul Valery famously said, "War is a massacre of people who don't know each other for the profit of people who know each other but don't massacre each other."

              And who will enforce all your enlightened proposals about borders, war and what not?

              Anyway, I know 16 year old teens more politically mature than you.

              Just stop focusing on TV. Read books. TV watchers spend their whole life ranting against decisions taken by people who have risen to power by studying in books. Your call, sonny!

              1. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

                Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

                I'm pretty sure I read more books than you and from differing viewpoints - i hope you're still waving the American flag - or are you sitting on it?

          5. SundogUK Silver badge

            Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

            "China's economy has been rapidly advancing"

            No it hasn't. China has an enormous problem with it's real estate sector right now, which is crippling their economy. Let's wait and see how that pans out.

        3. Zolko Silver badge

          Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

          the West has active military experience in conflict zones for the past decade at least

          please reassure me : this is a joke ? The West has been defeated in all wars for the past 20 years (Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Mali...) we what sort of experience are you referring-to ? Also, I bet that there are many Chinese military officers in Ukraine to study how to wage a modern war

          Once a conflict and win over China has been attained, the US ...

          ... the irony is subtle. The US could not win against the Taliban but will defeat the Chinese and Russian military combined ?

          1. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

            Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

            @Zolko I get the point you make, but I didn't say the West has WON - just that they had experience which is a lot more than China has - thinking about how you're going to respond when you're being shot at is all well and good - but it doesn't match what you ACTUALLY do when you get shot at - war is something you can't play at - a bit like boxing - you don't play boxing - and you don't play war - war you kill kill kill - because blood is what makes the grass grow.

            Also - the wars you mention haven't really been one country v another which is what a war between China and the US will be, apart from Iraq - and that was the Allies v Iraq- - they've been mostly insurgencies/terrorist operations - and the Ameicans in each case has left the country a wreck/shell of its former self and escaped back to the safety, security, comfort of the US. In WW2 a large amount of post war planning was done by the US to put the country back in order after they left - they have not done this in any of their recent wars apart from carving out who gets the oil fields.

            The result of the war with the Taliban was after the country had been essentially occupied for a period of time, but they had given the US such a pain in the ass with background fighting etc the US decided to leave and repivot to China - but I do find the fact that the Taliban ended up flying around in US choppers and HMVs very very very funny and ironic

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

              Also - the wars you mention haven't really been one country v another which is what a war between China and the US will be, apart from Iraq - and that was the Allies v Iraq- - they've been mostly insurgencies/terrorist operations

              I think war between China and the US is very unlikely, and if it happened, very likely to end badly for the US. Iraq was a good example as to why. So Saddam invaded Kuwait, we decided to remove him. We did that by shipping thousands of tons of weapons, troops and supplies to the region so we had the combat weight to do that. There's a bunch of simulations and war games that allow you to recreate this scenario, and one way to win as Iraq is to seize the ports we used to ship that equipment into the theatre.

              Attacking China would be much worse, ie a trans-Pacific logistics route. Sure, stuff could be staged closer, but China could just attack those staging areas. Or it's slightly more likely it becomes a proxy war over Taiwan, but that has much the same problems. If China manages to occupy Taiwan, removing it would be extremely challenging. The PLAN is larger than the USN, it has masses of coastal defence systems, aircraft etc etc and of course timing becomes an issue. The West is currently stretched by existing conflcts, and war stocks have been run down by the Ukraine conflict. There are also socio-political issues, like loss tolerance for the US is lower than it'd probably be for China, so if a carrier or troop transports were sunk, support for yet another foreign misadventure would be low.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

                > The PLAN is larger than the USN

                WTF. Come back to Earth. Remember their carrier is a joke that was initially bought from your pal Vlad as a casino. LMAO.

                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: A trollshow in the overall economic war

                  WTF. Come back to Earth. Remember their carrier is a joke that was initially bought from your pal Vlad as a casino. LMAO.

                  Perhaps you should try visiting this planet once in a while. It's true though, the PLAN is larger than the USN. Plus it's focused on the Pacific, for obvious reasons whereas the USN is divided between the Pacific and Atlantic. Some depends on how you count it though, ie hulls vs tonnage vs force projection, ie number of missiles it could launch. But China's been busily building ships, including lots of semi-disposable missile boats that could swarm US CBGs. And don't forget Ukraine's showed our missile defences don't seem to be that great vs hypersonic missiles. And then of course we're in the drone age, and China's no doubt been building and stockpiling air and sea drones.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: A trollshow in the overall economic war

                    Chinese stats always trying to catch up with the plan. It's a matter of survival for the local authorities. What counts really, for now at least, are carriers.

                    Also, Chinese navy is present in the Indian Ocean and in the the Middle East. With Naval bases in Pakistan, Djibouti, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. More to come in Cambodia, The Maldives, PNG and African countries.

                    > And don't forget Ukraine's showed our missile defences don't seem to be that great vs hypersonic missiles.

                    Dreaming awake, man. The Patriot, invented in the 1970s, downs proud Russian hypersonic Kinzhals most of the time. There's a reason nobody buys Russian junk anymore and why Patriots, 1Bn a piece, are in such high demand. If sanctions were 100% effective, Russia would even be unable to produce Shahed mopeds.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: A trollshow in the overall economic war

                      If it ever came to all out war, carriers are a big target sitting there saying "come get me" and they aren't very maneuverable and would be inundated with drones.

                      Scott Ritter has said exactly the same thing.

                      The interceptions of Iran's missiles was highly publicised, and by in large a successful intervention - but it was telegraphed by Iran to the West - let's see how well they'd be able to respond with 10x the amount of drones/missiles launched without warning in a saturation blitz.

                      All parties are holding back because ultimately no one wants to die - once that control is released we will really get to see who can do what

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: A trollshow in the overall economic war

                        > If it ever came to all out war, carriers are a big target sitting there saying "come get me" and they aren't very maneuverable and would be inundated with drones.

                        You bark a lot but I can tell you haven't worked in defence man.

                        Also tell your friends in what's left of the PLA rocket force that water is not an good missiles propellant. Just saying.

                        1. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: A trollshow in the overall economic war

                          The thing that I really like about ACs is that they brook no argument - no possible suggestion that there may be another thought process than their thought process.

                          "You bark a lot but I can tell you haven't worked in defence man."

                          Scott Ritter has though - and he's not the only one who's said the same thing:

                          https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2018/july/carriers-role-narrowing

                          https://taskandpurpose.com/news/navy-aircraft-carriers-useless-war-china-taiwan/

                          https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/us-navys-aircraft-carrier-dominance-could-go-flames-210046

                          https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/05/is-this-the-end-of-the-age-of-the-aircraft-carrier

                          Now I'm sure you will be able to find 1 million articles pointing out how great aircraft carriers and the US is and that the US will be able to fight the whole world simultaneously and win, but I guess until there's a real war both of us are just shooting flapping our lips in the wind right?

                          1. Anonymous Coward
                            Anonymous Coward

                            Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                            > The thing that I really like about ACs is that they brook no argument

                            Says AC.

                            And who the f... is Scott Ritter? Oh yes, the sex offender claiming that the Ukrainian police was responsible for the Bucha massacre? Peskov and Lavrov are more credible than this guy. If we're ready to watch the BS on Russia Today, we'll let you know, dear vatnik-AC.

                            1. Anonymous Coward
                              Anonymous Coward

                              Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                              Typical AC - Scott Ritter is the UN Weapons inspector (American) that is an ex Marine and had the balls to stand up and declare that America's invasion of Iraq was illegal as they had no WMDs - because he had overseen their destruction. This was despite very significant pressure placed upon him by the American regime.

                              Ah - I've just worked out why you don't like him. He didn't tow your narrative.

                              I think I get your tactic now - Lambast China, Russia, Iran et al whenever you can, ignore the faults or wrongdoings of the US and occasionally post articles saying that Chinese companies are sending data back to China (proven false), and then post other articles where your source is "trust me bro", and whenever the weight of evidence goes too far against your favour just accuse the other person of being pro Russia/China/Iran etc

                              I would go so far as to say you're bigoted - I'm not saying all the countries you regard as evil are great - in the same way I'm not saying America is a cesspool - all countries have their pros and cons - but you are so blinkered in your view of the US you are in danger of a diabetic overdose drinking so much kool aid

                              1. Anonymous Coward
                                Anonymous Coward

                                Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                > Articles saying that Chinese companies are sending data back to China (proven false),

                                In Addis Ababa, the headquarters of the African Union spied on by Beijing.

                                A year ago, the IT workers of the building, built in 2012 by the Chinese, discovered that the entire content of its servers was transferred to Shanghai.

                                In January 2017, the AU's small IT unit discovered that its servers were strangely saturated between midnight and 2 a.m. The offices were empty, activity was dormant but data transfers were reaching peaks. A zealous computer scientist looked into this anomaly and realized that the AU's internal data was being massively misused. Every night, the secrets of this institution, according to several internal sources, were found stored more than 8,000 km from Addis Ababa, on mysterious servers hosted somewhere in Shanghai, the Chinese megacity.

                                The new building, “China’s gift to the friends of Africa”, was donated just six years ago. It was fully equipped by the Chinese. The IT systems were delivered turnkey. And the Chinese engineers have deliberately left two loopholes: digital backdoors which give discreet access to all of the organization's internal exchanges and productions.

                                According to several sources within the institution, all sensitive content could have been spied on by China. A spectacular data leak, which would have spanned from January 2012 to January 2017. When contacted, the Chinese mission to the AU did not respond to our requests.

                                “It went on too long. Following this discovery, we thanked, without causing a scandal, the Chinese engineers present at our headquarters in Addis Ababa to manage our systems, confides a senior AU official on condition of anonymity. We have taken some measures to strengthen our cybersecurity, a concept which is not yet commonplace among civil servants and heads of state. We remain very exposed. »

                                Since then, the AU has acquired its own servers and declined China's offer to configure them. On the ground floor of the glass tower, in a room that goes unnoticed, there is a data center which concentrates a good part of the organization's information system. All electronic communications are now encrypted and no longer pass through Ethio Telecom, the public operator of Ethiopia, a country renowned for its cyber surveillance and electronic espionage capabilities. From now on, the highest officials of the institution have foreign telephone lines and more secure applications.

                                1. Anonymous Coward
                                  Anonymous Coward

                                  Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/08/nsa-tapped-german-chancellery-decades-wikileaks-claims-merkel

                                2. Anonymous Coward
                                  Anonymous Coward

                                  Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                  https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/13/us/politics/us-spying-allies.html#:~:text=The%20latest%20leak%20of%20classified,and%20the%20United%20Arab%20Emirates.

                                3. Anonymous Coward
                                  Anonymous Coward

                                  Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                  https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/04/08/intelligence-leak-documents-ukraine-pentagon/

                                  1. Anonymous Coward
                                    Anonymous Coward

                                    Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                    Documents link Huawei to China’s surveillance programs

                                    Excerpt:

                                    > "A review by The Washington Post of more than 100 Huawei PowerPoint presentations, many marked “confidential,” suggests that the company has had a broader role in tracking China’s populace than it has acknowledged. These marketing presentations, posted to a public-facing Huawei website before the company removed them late last year, show Huawei pitching how its technologies can help government authorities identify individuals by voice, monitor political individuals of interest, manage ideological reeducation and labor schedules for prisoners, and help retailers track shoppers using facial recognition."

                                    1. Anonymous Coward
                                      Anonymous Coward

                                      Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                      https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/google-ai-venture-help-military-disaster-response

                                      https://www.wired.com/story/eric-schmidt-is-building-the-perfect-ai-war-fighting-machine/

                                4. Anonymous Coward
                                  Anonymous Coward

                                  Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                  and for reference I was actually referring to Huawei which I'm sure you're fully aware of

                                  1. Anonymous Coward
                                    Anonymous Coward

                                    Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                    Source: When a Huawei Bid turned into a Hunt for a Corporate Mole

                                    >>> "The US indictment accuses Huawei of explicitly incentivizing theft. “Employees were directed to post confidential information obtained from other companies on an internal Huawei website, or, in the case of especially sensitive information, to send an encrypted email to a special huawei.com email mailbox,” the indictment states. “A ‘competition management group’ was tasked with reviewing the submissions and awarding monthly bonuses to the employees who provided the most valuable stolen information. Biannual awards were made available to the top ‘Huawei Regional Divisions’ that provided the most valuable information.”

                                    >>> "Huawei has also consistently faced accusations that its equipment is used for spying. The company vehemently denies this, but there’s countervailing evidence. In 2012, as Bloomberg News reported, Australian officials informed their American counterparts of a sophisticated intrusion involving Huawei’s gear. Hackers from China’s spy services were copying large volumes of data from Australia’s telecommunications systems and sending it to China, according to the Australians. The incident was considered especially damning because the code used in the hack was delivered through Huawei software updates, suggesting that either the company had approved the operation or its technical staff had been infiltrated by intelligence operatives. "

                                    1. Not An AC

                                      Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                      ""Huawei has also consistently faced accusations that its equipment is used for spying. The company vehemently denies this, but there’s countervailing evidence. In 2012, as Bloomberg News reported, Australian officials informed their American counterparts of a sophisticated intrusion involving Huawei’s gear. Hackers from China’s spy services were copying large volumes of data from Australia’s telecommunications systems and sending it to China, according to the Australians. The incident was considered especially damning because the code used in the hack was delivered through Huawei software updates, suggesting that either the company had approved the operation or its technical staff had been infiltrated by intelligence operatives. ""

                                      Not sure if you're reading the same thing I am - but without knowing more details it's impossible to categorically say if Huawei was knowingly complicit in this event - e.g. if the equipment was made by Cisco for example, we can then say it was Cisco equipment used for spying?

                                      That's like saying if a knife was used to commit a murder, then it's the manufactuer of the knife that should stand trial - let's face it - it'd be pretty stupid for Chinese operatives to use Chinese equipment in a hack attempt.

                                  2. Anonymous Coward
                                    Anonymous Coward

                                    Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                    Here's an another one for you to dismiss as "baseless".

                                    Chinese spy duo charged in Huawei case as US condemns ‘egregious’ interference. This is from The Guardian.

                                    "The Chinese intelligence officers Guochun He and Zheng Wang attempted to orchestrate a scheme to steal the prosecution strategy memo, witness lists, and other confidential evidence from the US attorney’s office for the eastern district of New York, the indictment said. The charging papers against He and Wang referred only to an unnamed telecommunications company based in China, but the entity in question is understood to be Huawei, according to a source familiar with the matter. According to the indictment unsealed in Brooklyn, the Chinese agents paid about $61,000 worth of bitcoin in bribes to a US government official whom they believed had been recruited to work for the Chinese government but in fact worked as a double agent for the FBI."

                                    1. Anonymous Coward
                                      Anonymous Coward

                                      Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                      Not sure what/why you're posting this, I thought we had established that all countries spy on each other - but in the American world it's only ok when America spies on everyone else? FOR YEARS ON END?

                                      I'm surprised you haven't highlighted the xz hack where the name of the culprit is Jia Tan - https://www.wired.com/story/jia-tan-xz-backdoor/ - Now that's a very Chinese name right? :) because an intelligence operative would be sure to use their REAL name when attempting a hack - not use - say - "Anonymous Coward" instead ;)

                                      Keep drinking the kool aid boy! You have a lot to learn

                                5. Anonymous Coward
                                  Anonymous Coward

                                  Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                  Also have a read of this article:

                                  https://archive.is/1TZdO

                                  entitled "U.S. Agencies Said to Swap Intelligence With Thousands of Firms"

                                  So - in summary - more like China that you'd care to admit hey?

                                  P.S. Remember to downvote because that's all you can do

                                  1. Anonymous Coward
                                    Anonymous Coward

                                    Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                    From Bloomberg (nopaywall - republished): When a Huawei Bid turned into a Hunt for a Corporate Mole

                                    "Huawei has also consistently faced accusations that its equipment is used for spying. The company vehemently denies this, but there’s countervailing evidence. In 2012, as Bloomberg News reported, Australian officials informed their American counterparts of a sophisticated intrusion involving Huawei’s gear. Hackers from China’s spy services were copying large volumes of data from Australia’s telecommunications systems and sending it to China, according to the Australians. The incident was considered especially damning because the code used in the hack was delivered through Huawei software updates, suggesting that either the company had approved the operation or its technical staff had been infiltrated by intelligence operatives."

                                    "In response to the reporting, Huawei said it was never told by Australian authorities about a breach, but the incident confirmed suspicions at US and Australian intelligence agencies that China’s spies were using Huawei for access into customer networks. The discovery marked the beginning of a concerted diplomatic effort by both countries to slow Huawei’s growth."

                                  2. Anonymous Coward
                                    Anonymous Coward

                                    Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                    Not sure how you say "evidence" in Chinese, but having Huawei admitting to copying Cisco software and documentation, having Huawei employees found with stolen AT&T documents and plans or T-Mobile robots, having Chinese spies convicted of embezzlement to protect Huawei, having weather webcams used to spy on US service personal, and all the other things I listed are called "evidence" on this side of the Great Wall.

                                    Yet another backdoor event leveraging Lawful Interception: Huawei accused of stealing trade secrets, spying in Pakistan

                                    > - Business Efficiency Solutions said it partnered with Huawei on Pakistani policing project

                                    > - BES created data collection, other software for Pakistan's police

                                    >- Huawei used software as 'backdoor' to spy on Pakistanis, says complaint"

                                    BES also accused the Chinese tech giant in the Wednesday complaint of using its technology to create a "backdoor" that allowed it to collect sensitive data "important to Pakistan's national security."

                                    Let me know if you need more evidence.

                                    1. Anonymous Coward
                                      Anonymous Coward

                                      Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                      That article is from 3 years ago - let me provide you with one more recent.

                                      https://ca.movies.yahoo.com/movies/huawei-contractor-pakistan-backdoor-194308607.html

                                      "BES alleges that Huawei insisted on creating a duplicate version of the Lahore network in Suzhou, China, that would provide direct access to the Pakistan data. While BES wanted permission from Pakistani officials before going forward, Huawei reportedly claimed it didn't need permission and initially threatened to cut off the deal if BES didn't move forward. The Chinese company later said it obtained permission, but apparently refused to provide evidence of this when asked.

                                      The situation may not be clear-cut. Huawei told the Journal there was "no evidence" it had installed backdoors in any products. In a statement from earlier in the dispute, the company acknowledged the duplicate system in China but maintained that it was strictly a test version "physically isolated" from the real network, making it impossible to extract data. An overseer for the Lahore effort, Muhammad Kamran Khan, said an investigation was underway but that there wasn't any evidence of data theft "so far."

                                      Whoever is telling the truth, the lawsuit highlights the ongoing concerns that Huawei might be aiding China's surveillance goals. The company has long denied the allegations, and there isn't yet "smoking gun" evidence that it has used backdoors to snoop on other countries. However, that hasn't allayed suspicions that have led the US, UK and others to blacklist its technology. This case might only exacerbate Huawei's situation, even if BES' assertions don't hold up in court."

                                      No smoking gun - but just enough aspersions to cause alarm and distress - yet the Americans have been PROVEN to be doing it for years.

                                      What is your favourite kool aid soldier?

                                    2. Anonymous Coward
                                      Anonymous Coward

                                      Re: Which AC? AC-vatnik-you? AC-them? The other AC? Or that nafo-AC?

                                      Also BES is an American Company - who's to say it hasn't been infiltrated with US intelligence operatives to push its own agendas?

                    2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                      Re: A trollshow in the overall economic war

                      Dreaming awake, man. The Patriot, invented in the 1970s, downs proud Russian hypersonic Kinzhals most of the time... .... and why Patriots, 1Bn a piece, are in such high demand

                      Err.. yes. This is why you really need to read more reliable sources than the Bbc and it's regurgitated pablum from the SBU. But of course, citation needed. There have been a bunch of videos showing Patriot systems facetanking Russian missiles, and being destroyed in the process. I suppose you would count that as a successful intercept. But the reason they're in such high demand is because Urkraine keeps losing them. But yes, at $1bn a system, or $1m+ a missile, Lockheed, Raytheon and Boing thank Western tax payers for their business. Too bad they can't produce missiles and systems as fast as Urkraine is losing them.

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: A trollshow in the overall economic war

                        > But the reason they're in such high demand is because Urkraine[sic] keeps losing them.

                        Totally bonkers... There are in excess of 1500 launchers in the world. Oryx shows two destroyed.

                        > Too bad they can't produce missiles and systems as fast as Urkraine[sic] is losing them.

                        US production is in excess of 1000 a year, with more units being built. Not counting Mitsubishi HI... That's more than enough for the remaining six A-50 and a few more Kinzhals. You'll need more voodoo to reverse that trend.

                        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                          Re: A trollshow in the overall economic war

                          Totally bonkers...

                          Enough about yourself..

                          There are in excess of 1500 launchers in the world. Oryx shows two destroyed.

                          Oryx is, of course a reliable source. Especially when Urkraine arrests anyone who posts images of missile attacks and damage. But I asked for evidence that Urkraine has successfully intercepted hypersonic missiles, and as usual, you've presented none. Russia's been busily attacking and destroying warehouses and storage facilities as well.

                          US production is in excess of 1000 a year, with more units being built.

                          Uhuh. So Urkraine has been under regular missile & drone attack with >50 targets to intercept. Recommended procedure is to double-tap, so launch 2 interceptors per target. At that rate, 1,000 missiles a year isn't that much. All Russia needs to do is produce >1,000 missiles or drones a year. But Urkraine has been busily draining global inteceptor stocks. Then we've got the interceptors being used in Saudi/Yemen, the Red Sea, and possibly more attacks on Iran. Ships carry a finite number of air-defence missiles, and can't always reload at sea, plus the AEGIS GPI intended to intercept hypersonic missiles is still in development.

                          Hence why China, Iran and other potentially hostile navies developed swarm tactics with lots of small boats yeeting missiles to saturate and overload defences.

                          1. Anonymous Coward
                            Anonymous Coward

                            Sorry to be... a killjoy

                            > But I asked for evidence that Urkraine has successfully intercepted hypersonic missiles, and as usual, you've presented none.

                            PATRIOT air defence system intercepted 25 Kinzhal missiles in Ukraine

                            The Ukraine's Air Force Command has reported a significant achievement in their air defence efforts, successfully intercepting 25 out of 63 Kh-47M2 Kinzhal hypersonic air-launched ballistic missiles fired by Russian forces since the onset of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

                            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                              Re: Sorry to be... a killjoy

                              The Ukraine's Air Force Command has reported a significant achievement in their air defence efforts,

                              Like I said.. Present evidence. The UAF regularly claims to have intercepted 97% of all inbound missiles, yet stuff on the ground still explodes. It's also claimed the Goats of Kiev shooting down lots of Russian aircraft, it's heroes of Snake Island, little old ladies knocking down drones with well-aimed jars of pickles etc etc.

                              But just to head off another trolling attempt-

                              On 10 May 2023, Vitali Klitschko showed fragments of the alleged downed Kinzhal missile for Bild journalists in Kyiv. Russian media alleged that the fragments closely resembled the concrete-piercing BETAB-500ShP aerial bomb.

                              Klitschko's a well-known weapons expert, as well as having German children. Handy that, but not atypical for the 'fortunate sons' and daughters of Urkraine's elite..

                            2. Anonymous Coward
                              Anonymous Coward

                              Re: Sorry to be... a killjoy

                              It's not as if the Ukrainian military haven't been caught lying about casualty figures in the past ....

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

                              https://unherd.com/newsroom/whats-the-truth-about-casualty-numbers-in-ukraine/

                            3. Anonymous Coward
                              Anonymous Coward

                              Re: Sorry to be... a killjoy

                              By the way - that 6 (or is it 60) BILLION USD you're giving to Ukraine ....

                              https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle

                              https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy

                              I wonder how much the boots on the ground will get ...

                              Enjoy trying to make the interest payments on your national debt - and at least someone's enjoying the money the US taxpayer is giving them ... cheers bud!

          2. Casca Silver badge

            Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

            Oh good. One of the vatniks are here to keep the other ones company...

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

              Ukraine does make a good point though right - why can the US shoot down Iranian drones, yet they decide not to get involved along with Europe in the form of NATO join to help the mighty oppressed Ukraine and bring all the firepower to bear against the horrible Ruskies?

              I think we all know why - no American boots on the ground to die - as long as all the Ukrainians die that's ok (for you)

              1. Casca Silver badge

                Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

                Maybe you should look on a map...

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

                  You got it @Casca - the map does a good job of explaining why the good ole USA is ok with sending BILLIONS worth of armaments to Ukraine (most of it will end up going to buy Zelensky even more bolt holes in other countries)

                  Also it explains why the US invaded Iraq too in an illegal war

                  1. Casca Silver badge

                    Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

                    Ah, good little AC vatnik.

                    To scared to post without AC? Or are you just a moron?

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

                      I post as who I want when I want - mainly because it annoys the other AC on here ;)

        4. Necrohamster Silver badge
          WTF?

          Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

          "the West has active military experience in conflict zones for the past decade at least..."

          Experience? Yes. Victories? No. Umm they lost in Afghanistan and left with their tail between their legs. Iraq was no better.

          "Once a conflict and win over China has been attained..."

          lol you've got quite the imagination.

          Every time the US finds itself in a war, the American population finds it doesn't have any stomach for it once the body bags start returning.

          While remote fighting with drones is possible against Houthi militias or regional Taliban commanders, any US-China war wouldn't go that way

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

            There are several interesting factors that would make for an interesting scenario if wargamed (which I'm sure it has been - by both sides)

            If Afghanistan/Iraq/Syria etc did have any proper national army that the US fought, the opposition (i.e. non US side) wouldn't have been particularly well trained in terms of conventional warfare - and I'd imagine they would have reverted to the insurgency type stuff that had stood them in good stead against the Russians et al.

            Looking at all the past scenarios now, it appears as if the US only acts if they have someone else by their side - witness the failure of the much lauded international armada to stop the Houthi drones et al. - so any country on the opposite side would also have to factor this into account.

            The knowns are you would pretty much know where the battleground will be - both in terms of land and sea but the decision would be as to how far you go for fear of escalating the situation which could potentially start a world war.

    2. A1B2C3D4E5

      Re: A sideshow in the overall economic war

      Agree with everything said in this post - but you won't get new politicians - Obama said it best when he said "If someone has spent their life/career to climb the greasy pole to get into power, why would they make it easier for someone else to get into power - which that person would then have to relinquish to let the new person in"

      It's the same thing with Huawei - it's a side show to the US maintaining dominance in all spheres - financial, technological, military etc - by any means possible. The minute that they were close to making the same kind of money that Apple were, they were doomed.

      Mark my words - this would happen to ANY company that would challenge US dominance - even if that company belonged to a supposed "friend"

      They did a similar thing to the chip thing now to the Japanese in the 80s with regard to LCD technology and got away with it

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Thanks for yet another [fake] conspiracy theory

        > "It's the same thing with Huawei"

        Huawei was already accused of spying on 4G networks as early as 2009 (warning came actually from Australia, not the USA). A loooong time before Huawei entered the smartphone market, let alone challenged Apple's leadership.

        Remember Huawei's capital is totally opaque (with strong suspicions of involvement of the PLA/CCP).

        1. TheRealDeal

          Re: Thanks for yet another [fake] conspiracy theory

          Again - Anonymous Coward to the rescue - so rught - but how about Edward Snowden publicising all the hacks that the US have performed on IT equipment?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Thanks for yet another [fake] conspiracy theory

            Whataboutism = implicit admission

        2. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

          Re: Thanks for yet another [fake] conspiracy theory

          I see there is a reason you post under AC - I can see from your "supporting" article ...

          "Unable to give specifics, Hayden offered ..."

          I read this as source "Trust me bro"

          And we've been here before right? The thought that Huawei is hacking 5G (again the source is "trust me bro" - so The Cell was set up and work with GHCQ was done to go through each line of source code - something which no other vendor has had to do - including Cisco (which has numerous bugs found in it and is known to work with the security agencies) and NOTHING has been found - here is my supporting evidence from the UK Government:

          https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/huawei-cyber-security-evaluation-centre-hcsec-oversight-board-annual-report-2021

          Source is most definitely NOT "Trust me bro"

          Whataboutism = implicit admission right back at ya

          1. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

            Re: Thanks for yet another [fake] conspiracy theory

            Cat got your tongue Anonymous Coward?

            If the US has nothing to hide, why don't you advocate for Cisco, Juniper and all other US network equipment manufacturers to go through the same level of oversight and see what the results are?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Thanks for yet another [fake] conspiracy theory

              Oh - a lookie here - a downvote but no reply - what a surprise

  3. Zibob Bronze badge

    As he peered down from the clouds

    Monty Pythons god thundered GET ON WITH IT!

    I'm sick of this shit, constant headlines and legal action continually hurting the average person as, well past retirement age morons shout at each other about national security, each oblivious to the hypocracy they are spouting.

    Just get on with it and have the war we all know is coming. The sooner the better, get it over with. Do the legally backed murdering we know the US and China love. Waste the resources and wear yourselves out so that maybe actual problems facing people might be addressed in the aftermath.

    It is deeply saddening that governments must be treated as infants that need to tucker themselves out and go to sleep so the grownups of the world can actually get something done without their interruptions or tantrums.

    1. TheRealDeal

      Re: As he peered down from the clouds

      Can't agree with this more - a part of me truly believes that humans as they are currently organised do not deserve to continue to exist - we're a blght on the world and deserve to go the way of the dinsosaurs

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        We all agree: it's "the others". Not us.

        I assume, by "humans", you meant "the other humans" (not you).

        1. GraXXoR

          Re: We all agree: it's "the others". Not us.

          They all do. All those who use rhetoric like “we need a war” or “a reset” are much like those “Sov Cits” and Brits who said “we need to reassert our sovereignty and stop freedom of travel” only to be surprised that the restrictions also applied to themselves travelling to Spain for retirement.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: We all agree: it's "the others". Not us.

            Oh I see. You were hinting at Russia (very limited travel abroad if you can hold a gun), China (getting a passport to travel abroad is quite a challenge too) and North Korea (very difficult for their citizens to travel abroad too). All three countries constantly pushing the war nuclear war rhetoric too.

            Good point. Fine observation.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: We all agree: it's "the others". Not us.

              AC to the rescue - or to put it another way, it's a well known observation that not that many Americans own a passport or have been outside the country in terms of population.

              Also - certainly from a Chinese perspective, they do not advocate the first use policy of nuclear weapons - they will respond in kind - unlike the US - which has made no such decision.

              But in your wold - yeah - constantly pushing nuclear war rhetoric - one of the other Anonymous Cowards on here mentioned that Japan needed to be given a small reminder - that's what an American calls the killing of 129k to 226k in Japan.

              Also - which country is the only country to have used a nuclear bomb in war? Yes! Also America - but everyone else is pushing the nuclear war rhetoric and it's all thier fault.

              Thanks for that - I can see how this conversation is going to pan out - America is spreading its democracy far and wide

              1. Casca Silver badge

                Re: We all agree: it's "the others". Not us.

                Eighty years ago... but dont let that stop you...

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: We all agree: it's "the others". Not us.

                  Mao's era is coming up to 60 years ago - but it's OK to bring up stuff from that timeframe, but not WW2?

                  If you talk about historical affairs - all historical are in remit - not just the ones that support your argument

                  1. Casca Silver badge

                    Re: We all agree: it's "the others". Not us.

                    Did I say anything about Mao? No? Then fuck off

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: We all agree: it's "the others". Not us.

                      My - you're a pleasant individual aren't you?

                      No - but one of your 77th Brigade compatriots mentioned Mao

                      1. Casca Silver badge

                        Re: We all agree: it's "the others". Not us.

                        Says the AC...

        2. Zibob Bronze badge

          Re: We all agree: it's "the others". Not us.

          No its pretty all encompassing, that we have allowed it.to.reach this state by being passive is as equally bad as the horrors being enacted by those with the power. But we are not allowed to complain, that's terrorism.

          So we just have to sit hands tied watch the world tear itsself.apart in misunderstood rage towards targets that only exist because we are told they do.

          In wish people.would just think about situations and ask why rather than immediately reach for the gun, but that's then world we have enabled. There is not questions, just retaliation.

        3. TheRealDeal

          Re: We all agree: it's "the others". Not us.

          You ASSUME wrong - I firmly believe in equal opportunities - all humans die eventually - I just think if we all died at the same time it'd leave the world a better place

    2. GraXXoR

      Re: As he peered down from the clouds

      “Only people who have never themselves experienced war clamour for another one.”

      1. Zibob Bronze badge

        Re: As he peered down from the clouds

        Its horrific and I don't want one.

        But I this abundantly clear that what I want doesn't matter, I am just told by the leaders what's going to happen. What I vote for is meaningless, they are going to do whatever they want when in power.

        Very few want a war, but the vast majority cannot stop it from happening. And from the read8ng of history this is all the hallmarks of the ramp up towards war.

        Unfortunately the most prosperous and advanced periods of humanity follow.wars where for a generation or two we ask why we did it, before the old tribalism starts again and we get elected.leaders that cannot resist raising tension, poking rivals and goading them into aggressive positions for the purpose of allowing themselves to build up a defense position, which isn't defence its aggression disguised as protectionism.

        We are being lead by the nose and seemingly happy for it.

        We deserve what we get.

        1. doublelayer Silver badge

          Re: As he peered down from the clouds

          "Unfortunately the most prosperous and advanced periods of humanity follow.wars where for a generation or two we ask why we did it,"

          I don't think that one's supported by history. Maybe you're thinking of the prosperity that happened after World War II, except that there was another war including 16 of the players just five years later. It was smaller, but it still involved plenty of dying among those participants who had just finished an earlier war. If you're thinking about post World War I, you do have slightly longer without another one, but the prosperity didn't last very long and it wasn't the start of another war that ended it. If we consider farther back in history, one long multi-party war in Europe usually degraded into smaller wars with relatively small gaps in between.

          It would be nice if we did have the aversion to war, even temporary, that you describe, but I don't think we do, and even if we do, it wouldn't stop us from still having to get into wars when someone else starts them. As we have also recognized, ignoring something because you don't want to have to fight usually doesn't prevent you from having to fight eventually.

          1. Zibob Bronze badge

            Re: As he peered down from the clouds

            All.of the good and advanced tech you enjoy is a direct result of war that enabled it.

        2. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

          Re: As he peered down from the clouds

          It wouldn't be horrific for very long - a few flashes of very bright light and it'll all be over

      2. TheRealDeal

        Re: As he peered down from the clouds

        Yet it is those in power that play the games of brinksmanship

      3. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

        Re: As he peered down from the clouds

        Que sara sara

        Whatever we clamour for, we are not the ones in power - whatever will come to pass - will come to pass

      4. seldom

        Re: As he peered down from the clouds

        Which is why any nation that doesn't mandate that any politician that votes for a war/police action/intevention/limited engagement will be the first on the front line with badly fitting clothes and a rifle that they don't really know how to shoot should be nuked.

        Any grammar people there, am I turning into a german with that sort of sentence?

  4. martinusher Silver badge

    American Companies? Think "Biden Campaign"

    I guess the whole point is that they had to include this if they were going to get their "Billions for Ukraine and Israel" bill passed -- legislators have a habit of tacking all sorts of BS onto bills that must pass. Now they can put off doing anything about it until after the election (just as well as TikToc is used by a number of political campaigns, include Joe Biden's and, anyway, alienating a significant slice of a desirable voter demographic before an election is probably not a smart move).

    This is worth a read:-

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/04/25/tiktok-legal-battle-is-certain/

  5. Trigun

    In my opinion TikTok enhances the bad parts of social media - addiction, narcissism, hatred, etc. Some of the things I've seen with regards hatred towardrs men and "white people" would turn your stomach and there's a derranged element to some of it as well.

    As such, I think getting rid of it is not a bad thing. However, HOW you do that is important and sneaking this through in a dishonest way by piggybacking it on to the whole money for Ukraine/Israel/etc is definitely a bad way to do it. But maybe that's the only way that they can get it through.

    Additionally, I don't think that the real is China. or at least it's not the only reason. This comes from U.S. social media companies losing market share.

    I think this is going to get challenged in any event.

    1. TheRealDeal

      I agree with your point whole heartedly - but I am guessing only TikTok should be banned/gotten rid of because it is owned by THE CHINESE!!!!!!!!

      Twitter/Insta/Facebook is OK because it is AMERICAN and they are the home of the FREE and land of the BRAVE - or maybe it's the other way around - who knows - but the Americans are just the best human beings on Earth so everything they create is good etc?

      I'm still waiting for evidence of WMDs in Iraq and who knows how the ICJ will view the behaviour of the US and UK in a certain area of the Middle East currently?

      Stay tuned kids!

      1. Tomi Tank

        Multiple exclamations marks are very very very very very very rarely excusable.

        From a trading view, the US has every right to ban TikTok considering all US social networks are no-go in China. That in itself is more than enough reason. Play fair China or it's the gunboats again.

        And TikTok is hell on earth. The worst by far. It seems the whole world has transformed into performing monkeys.

        But don't worry about it and definitely not enough to write more than one exclamation mark! Social media is mostly tabloid today and appeals to that demographic. That will never change no matter what type of media short-form video content is followed by.

        Plus, social media is so last decade. Just let it go. Not even worth thinking about it. Think about AI instead. Real-time LV(ideo)M running on sunglasses-size device!! Being able to generate life-like 3d video in real-time would be a paradigm shift to nearly all aspects of existence.

        LVMs will eat social as social ate the web.

  6. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

    Decoupling

    Not if you've envisaged the scenario that there will be a more or less complete decoupling between China and the West. The U.S. is quietly prodding its manufacturers to move out of China and will subsequently impose more and more trade restrictions on the Middle Kingdom. Eventually only low-tech stuff may be imported from China, like hair-dryers and waffle-irons. And if they start to weaponize those too (by adding internet capability or something dumb along those lines) we'll ban those too.

    Sure Beijing will hit back but once more and more Western companies leave the country it'll start to hurt them more than us. China is already easing some restrictions on foreign ownership because their economy is hurting. This shows that Biden's tactics are working.

    1. TheRealDeal

      Re: Decoupling

      I think eventually there will be complete decoupling and the West is aiming to sanction China to the same extent as Iran, Syria, North Korea etc - they can't do that currently because the US and China are too tightly coupled - hence the current "work" to separate the economies ...

      During Blinken's trip to China he reinforced the message that the US basically wants China to do what the US wants - or else - don't trade with Russia, do everything that the US says and we're still going to treat you like the ginger haired stepchild as we still won't let you have access to <28nm chip tech - oh - and are you becoming proficient at >28nm chip tech? Then consider that banned for you as well ...

      I'm not sure why China doesn't play the same game to the US and tell them to either help Ukraine as part of NATO - or leave them to it, and to hold them accountable for their actions in the Middle East - two can play at that game

      1. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

        Re: Decoupling

        China made a huge mistake challenging America's hegemony. Now they'll have to pay the price, which is irrelevance and becoming an economic hermit.

        China cannot win against the West, neither militarily nor economically.

        1. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

          Re: Decoupling

          Are you a student of history bychance?

          All empires die eventually. Look at the news reports from the US about the drug epidemic on the streets with people literally keeled over unconscious - look at the state of the US economy where they spend more on interest payments than on defence - is this your idea of a country on the rise?

          Personally I have no skin in the game - I don't care if China or the US implode or explode - I want all humans to die (which is the ultimate act of equal opportunities) but the US constantly trying to tell the world they're acting for the greater good blah blah blah when it's blatently one of self interest is galling to say the least

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Decoupling

            > I want all humans to die

            They do, in due course. You're here, gratifying us with your wisdom, because some of them sired you before they met their fate.

            Whatever material comfort you're enjoying today is the product of the humans who did their things before they had to go. That's what you're using right now when you spew all these childish rants about the world being such a place unworthy of Your Highness.

            You might not like this part, but you will, too. Although you probably still have time to realize and then bitterly remember all the silly things you said and did.

            Now go back to your desk. Exams start next month.

            1. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

              Re: Decoupling

              lol - all this from the person posting as an anonymous coward - a fitting tribute if ever one was invented.

              I am well aware of my mortality and I know death will come for me - but more importantly (to me) is that it will also come for you too (not by my hand directly or indirectly I hasten to add) - I know Americans love to put words in people's mouths so just to pre-empt that happening I meant you dying in the fullness of time and nature

          2. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

            Re: Decoupling

            You don't seem to know anything about history. Most people thought that the U.S. would implode in the late 60's and that a civil war would break out because of the race riots and Vietnam-war protests. The country survived and even put men on the Moon during that same period. The U.S. will survive the drug addiction and healthcare crisis simply because it's both militarily and economically the strongest nation on Earth. Its technological and scientific advances are leading the world with everyone else trying to catch up.

            Acting for the greater good and having your own self-interests at heart isn't necessarily antagonistic. Anyone with half a brain would do the same.

            And the U.S. isn't an "empire" in the sense that it tries to control every aspect of nations within its sphere of influence. The country is politically much too diverse to be able to do that.

            1. OneOfTheFoundingFathers

              Re: Decoupling

              ROFL - Greater good?!

              You mean in America's economic interest - at least say it like it is and people would have more respect for you

              "And the U.S. isn't an "empire" in the sense that it tries to control every aspect of nations within its sphere of influence. The country is politically much too diverse to be able to do that."

              Tell that to Iraq who's oil fields have been carved up between Western owners (ultimately - there are of course - other intermediatory companies in the way to give some plausible dienaibility) and who's country has been destroyed in an illegal war. Tell that to Afghanistan, Syria et al.

              You have an extremely distorted view of American politics - maybe read a bit outside of what you hear in the US press

              1. Casca Silver badge

                Re: Decoupling

                Unlike your views? LMAO

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Decoupling

            " I don't care if China or the US implode or explode - I want all humans to die (which is the ultimate act of equal opportunities) "

            If you want to change they world,

            take a look at the man in the mirror.

            Mike Jackson said in a roundabout way.

            But you are nearly there in your words. Maybe just break it in gently though. Like, those under 90IQ. Then 100. If problems persist keep going up in stages of 5 until it levels out.

            TBH, I too have felt that way and I avoid that now by not going south of the Thames and keeping mostly in my Kensington area. Maybe work harder? the secret to life is lots of money. 'Stop being poor' as the lovely Paris once had emblazoned upon her t-shirt wrapping her heavenly form. XX

            1. Deja Vu

              Re: Decoupling

              Keep waving that Ameican flag - Paris doesn't do it for me

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Decoupling

              This is a bit like the young girl who wanted to act as a mediator/broker for peace between Gorbochov and Reagen (or something like that) - I think there were a couple of meetings before the plane she was on crashed with all parties on board killed on impact.

              That would have been due to a dodgy engine or the Russians of course!

      2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: Decoupling

        I'm not sure why China doesn't play the same game to the US and tell them to either help Ukraine as part of NATO - or leave them to it, and to hold them accountable for their actions in the Middle East - two can play at that game

        China may have just started to do this-

        http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202404/27/WS662bff5ba31082fc043c44fc.html

        UNITED NATIONS -- A Chinese envoy on Friday called for a UN-led international investigation of the September 2022 Nord Stream pipeline explosions.

        It has been more than 18 months since the Nord Stream incident. It is simply regretful that no conclusion has been drawn, said Geng Shuang, China's deputy permanent representative to the United Nations.

        China notes that Sweden and Denmark, two major parties to the incident, announced in February 2024 the termination of their country-specific investigations. The two countries' investigations did not disclose substantive information, did not reveal concrete progress, and did not draw clear conclusions, sparking even more speculations and misgivings in the international community, he told the Security Council.

        Which is a bit.. awkward.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Decoupling

          "Do as I say, not as I do" - said the US

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Decoupling

          > China notes that Sweden and Denmark, two major parties to the incident, announced in February 2024 the termination of their country-specific investigations. The two countries' investigations did not disclose substantive information, did not reveal concrete progress, and did not draw clear conclusions, sparking even more speculations and misgivings in the international community, he told the Security Council.

          Correction: A Russian navy vessel specialising in submarine operations was photographed near the sabotaged Nord Stream gas pipelines just prior to the mysterious September blasts, according to the Danish daily newspaper Information.

          The prosecutor leading Sweden’s investigation into the sabotage confirmed the existence of the hitherto publicly unknown photographs. “I’m aware of the information from before … This is not new information to us,” Mats Ljungqvist said on Friday. Aerial photo released by the Danish defence ministry in September shows the Nord Stream gas pipeline leak site.

          The newspaper said the submarine rescue ship SS-750 was photographed in the Baltic Sea four days before the still-unexplained explosions on the pipelines linking Russia to Germany. The ship carries a mini-submarine.

          “The Danish military confirmed that 26 photos of the Russian vessel were taken from a Danish patrol boat in the zone located east of Bornholm on 22 September 2022,” Information said, adding the photos were classified.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Decoupling

            Yet those pictures have never been published ... because the public can't be trusted with pictures of a Russian marine vehicle.

  7. PM.

    OMG !

    They're gonna block X and Facebook in retaliation !!!!! Oh, wait ..

  8. JWLong

    OMG !

    They're gonna block X and Facebook in retaliation !!!!! Oh, wait ..

    Lucky them!..............

  9. ecofeco Silver badge
    Gimp

    And nothing of value will be lost

    Who cares? Besides the investors who are crying?

    Vapid social media will always have a replacement ready and waiting in the wings.

    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: And nothing of value will be lost

      Exactly. Social media is anything but, and given China already blocks free speech on their side it seems hardly worth caring about TicTok being banned. Ladies and gentlemen, from half a millennium ago:

      Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,

      That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,

      And then is heard no more. It is a tale

      Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

      Signifying nothing.

      1. seldom

        Re: And nothing of value will be lost

        Upvote for the quote and the reminder that nothing changes.

        The Elizebethan government had spies making sure that nothing that would "rock the boat" appeared in the playhouses.

  10. EricB123 Silver badge

    I Am Very Disgusted

    I read many of the comments about TikTok, and I am both disgusted and saddened. Apparently most of the comments were generated by people who looked at a TikTok video or two, and decided it was ruining the minds of today's youth.

    I am an elderly engineer, and I am active both here on the The Register as well as TikTok. Sure, there are more than a few videos of kids dancing on TikTok.. But once you use it for a few days, the algorithm learns that you aren't terribly interested in videos like that, and adjusts what you see accordingly. There are even an amazing number of excellent science oriented channels on TikTok, which is great as it gets a younger audience.

    Just as there are ignorant people on TikTok, there are ignorant people reading El Reg. Need proof? Look back a few days at how a discussion about software security somehow disintegrated into a tabloid style rebuttal about vaccines.

    Q.E.D.

  11. cantankerous swineherd

    imagine the squealing if the boot was on the other foot.

  12. Casca Silver badge

    Nice to see that the tin foil brigade is out in force...

  13. Binraider Silver badge

    What chinesium garbage do you actually want anyway? They have good printing and microelectronics capabilities that we COULD choose to do elsewhere. But the majority of what leaves those borders seems to get dumped onto toxic African garbage heaps poisoning the locals looking for stuff worth recycling, or the pacific ocean in a matter of months anyway.

    SHEIN, TEMU, Alibaba... Whatever happened to production quality and longevity as a criteria?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      This point has been raised ad afinitum previously.

      China actually does make quality equipment - DJI, Zhiyun, Oneplus etc etc - but then the accusation that gets levelled at them is they're spying for China.

      Also - the shops you mentioned sell cheap stuff - kind of like Poundland in the UK - such shops operate on the principle of buying cheap stuff from abroad and then reselling it for a mark up in their own country - this model doesn't work with expensive high quality equipment.

      The consumerism comes from the West - China is satisfying the demand - the change has to come from the source

  14. Snowy Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Also banned in China

    Shocking I know but Tiktok has never been available in mainland China.

    CHINA

    TikTok has never been available in mainland China, a fact that CEO Shou Chew has mentioned in testimony to U.S. lawmakers. ByteDance instead offers Chinese users Douyin, a similar video-sharing app that follows Beijing’s strict censorship rules. TikTok also ceased operations in Hong Kong after a sweeping Chinese national security law took effect.

    https://apnews.com/article/tiktok-bytedance-ban-china-india-376f32d78861e14e65ec4bc78e808a0d

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