back to article Samsung shows off battery tech it says will see you gone in nine minutes

Samsung SDI, the Korean giant’s battery biz, on Tuesday promised EV batteries that can charge to 80 percent capacity in a mere nine minutes, plus models that can perform at that level for 20 years. The ultra-fast charging battery will enter production in 2026. The long-lived product will start rolling off factory floors in …

  1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    Great news

    I fully support EVs with 10-minute charge times and 1,200km in range that don't spontaneously catch fire and can last 20 years. Once you guys have licked those issues, how about tackling the issue of your EV being sent to the scrapyard after a collision ?

    Because I've heard that that is a thing.

    1. Adair Silver badge

      Re: Great news

      It is 'a thing' everywhere—EV, ICE, steam, wooden cart. You crash it, someone, somewhere will be happy to write it off. Either because they can't fix it, don't know how to fix it, can't be arsed to fix it, OR there's more money to be made by not fixing it.

      With EVs the proportion of 'don't know how to fix it' is still relatively high, but it will drop as the type becomes established. Same as always.

      1. blackcat Silver badge

        Re: Great news

        When you add in all the cameras, sensors, crumple zones, aluminium panels, laser seam welds and giga castings the repair cost skyrockets. Long gone are the days of jigging a steel chassis and pulling it straight and then drilling out a few spot welds to slap on a new wing. If you manage to bend the tesla castings the chassis is done. Added into the mix is that insurance companies are more reluctant to insure rebuilt vehicles as well.

        And this is before we get to potential damage to the HV electrics.

        1. Jr4162

          Re: Great news

          Most modern cars cost a arm to fix and get written off because of the construction and the sensors that detect the car ahead of you etc..

        2. Roo
          Windows

          Re: Great news

          I'm looking forward to those batteries turning up in standard industrial sizes so I can put them into an ancient Citroen 2CV - most of which have already had new engines, new gearboxes and new chassis. :P

        3. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: Great news

          I'm aware of cases where someone's vehicle is damaged by another driver, and at-fault driver's insurance company wants total the vehicle so they can take possession and sell it used under a salvage title. That's particularly likely if the vehicle is in relatively high demand. I know someone who's suing an insurance company and the at-fault driver right now over an attempt to do that.

          Mutual insurance companies are sometimes decent. The for-profit ones are pretty much all horrible.

          1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

            Re: Great news

            I don't know where you're talking about, but in the UK you'd be under no obligation to agree to any such thing. Nor could I imagine a court agreeing with the insurance company if they claimed such a proposal was reasonable, if it didn't take into account the value of the car.

      2. Steve Crook

        Re: Great news

        Nope not entirely so.

        Complexity of electronics and potential risk of damage to batteries is an ongoing problem.

        As are the increasing numbers of smart cars packed with cameras and other stuff that're expensive to repair or replace and all positioned in areas that're routinely damaged in collisions.

        1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

          Re: Great news

          I had a car (ICE) written off once not because of chassis damage or anything like that but because the collision was enough to trigger all the airbags and seatbelt pretensioners. It still drove, but the cost of replacing all the pyrotechnics and related parts was too much.

          1. YetAnotherLocksmith Silver badge

            Re: Great news

            Uh oh! Sounds like a(nother) secret Big Electric conspiracy! Just write off all those fragile petrol engines, and replace them with... another ICE.

            I guess Elno was in charge of the operation?

        2. Gene Cash Silver badge

          Re: Great news

          > packed with cameras and other stuff

          A co-worker had his Honda's windshield crack from a rock kicked up on the interstate. It turned into an 11-week ordeal because replacing the window requires recalibrating the camera & sensors behind the rearview mirror.

          This was apparently something the dealership could not do and they had to send him to a "specialist"

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Great news

            That's strange.

            I had my old 2017 Peugeot in for a new windshield and that camera recalibration was done immediately after replacing the windshield by the company fitting the new windshield (in this case Carglass). I wasn't even aware that was needed, but it took just a couple of minutes> I wonder why Honda needed so much time.

            1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

              Re: Great news

              Similarly, I had to have the windshield on my 2015 Volvo XC70 replaced a few years back. It's obviously somewhat older, but it does have windshield sensors for things like the auto wipers and headlights, and it has the climate package so it's an electrically-heated windshield. My insurer gave me a short list of auto-glass shops they liked, I checked one out and it seemed legit, and they did the job while I waited (after they got the part in; not surprising they didn't have a shelf of Volvo XC70 heated windshields in the back).

              Maybe calibrating cameras is more complicated, but it certainly shouldn't be that complicated. Sounds to me like either the Honda dealer or the "specialist" screwed something up, and didn't want to admit it.

      3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Great news

        "there's more money to be made by not fixing it."

        Always this. Not many people know how to recycle scrap? More money for those who do.

      4. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge
        Flame

        Re: Great news

        somewhere will be happy to write it off. Either because they can't fix it, don't know how to fix it, can't be arsed to fix it, OR there's more money to be made by not fixing it

        True, but with EVs there is another issue...the fact that having suffered an impact there's a danger of the batteries being a bit explodey, so no workshop is prepared to take the risk of letting the vehicle onto their premises.

        1. User McUser

          Re: Great news

          Well, airbags *literally* have explosives in them and yet my hybrid car that has lithium ion batteries, airbags, AND flammable gasoline inside it still gets serviced regularly and was repaired after a major collision last year.

          ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

          1. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

            Re: Great news

            No, the problem is that a minor impact can cause a single cell to be damaged, or cause an intercomnect problem. And, as we all here are supposed to know, a loose/damaged battery connection or a damaged cell becomes a point of resistane to current flow. And what happens when you dump a shit-ton of current through a resistance point? Foosh, your car is gone as by the time you discover there is a problem, it's too late. What's bad is that this may not happen until a week or two after the accident causes the damage with no sign that there was a problem until it's burning the car down.

            But that isn't even the main problem - the main problem is that the battery monitoring gear is proprietary, and the OEMs aren't allowing anyone access. If repair shops and insurance companies had access to check the individual health state of each cell, they would be able to determine whether the car is at risk for a future fire. Since the insurance companies don't want to be on the hook for what might be a million dollar claim (imagine a Tesla catching fire in a parking garage, catching multiple cars on fire, or burning someone's million dollar house down) they will just total the car. The required fix might actually be a new cell or even replace a small piece of wire, but with no way to check it's less risk to just total the car And now, some car makers are using the battery pack as a structural member and the battery packs cannot be replaced.

            The solution would be to require the car makers to release access to the battery monitoring system, and require them to make the battery packs repairable or replaceable. They don't want to do this for obvious reasons, but being able to deal with the battery pack is a real must.

            1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

              Re: Great news

              All of this is nonsense. Battery packs are repairable and replaceable. The reason cars might be written off at the moment is that there aren't enough people who want to work on them, because mechanics are scared of electricity and haven't yet realised how lucrative doing a one-day course in working safely with HV battery packs would be.

        2. blackcat Silver badge

          Re: Great news

          People seem to have an irrational fear of this electrocity thing. Maybe something to do with the fact it is largely invisible and quite quiet, until you get enough in one place and then it gets very bright and loud.

          1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

            Re: Great news

            If only it were that. The alt-right nutbars here all believe in the conspiracy woo where electric cars and fifteen minute cities and public transport are part of a jew-government conspiracy to trans kids, or whatever nonsense they've been fed by the facetok videos they watch.

    2. DS999 Silver badge

      Re: Great news

      Why would you need 1200 km in range if it charges in only 10 minutes? Do you have a world champion bladder or are you driving 250 kph?

      1. I am David Jones Silver badge

        Re: Great news

        It would free up charging stations, for one thing

        1. cyberdemon Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: Great news

          And where is the umpteen Megawatts of pulse power going to come from? Yet more batteries at the charging station? Or huge Diesel gensets?

          1. Jonathan Richards 1
            Boffin

            Re: Great news - umpteen enumerated

            I had the same thought, and attempted a calculation of 'umpteen'. For my current car, a diesel hatchback that turns in 67 mpg (Imperial gallons, not US), i.e. 14.8 miles per litre, and an informed guess at thermal efficiency of 40% (better than petrol/gasoline, but still poor), I'd release 1,950 MJ of energy (from EN590 fuel) over a 745 mile drive. Ergo, I'd have used 780 MJ as mechanical energy.

            For a hypothetical Toyota EV, then, I'd be able to charge up with 780 MJ in six hundred seconds? (numbers from The Fine Article). That's a power input from the charger of 1.3 MW. Even if the EV is twice as mechanically efficient as the power train of the diesel car [citation needed], I need more than half a megawatt from the charger. This feels like having to reverse the EV into a dock on a small nuclear power station, rather than plugging in a wire from a charge point.

            1. Crypto Monad Silver badge

              Re: Great news - umpteen enumerated

              No need to reverse engineer from ICE: EV consumption figures of the form Wh per km are routinely available. A typical value is 0.2kWh per km (or 5km per kWh in the inverse, miles-per-gallon form).

              Taking the more reasonable claim of 400km in 10 minutes, that's 80kWh in 10 minutes or 0.48MW.

              A quick search says the RAC says of ultra-rapid chargers: "Typically rated at 100kW upwards, 350kW chargers are starting to appear in the UK". So it's not a big step up from that.

              Certainly a filling station with half a dozen of these is going to need a serious grid connection.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Great news - umpteen enumerated

                It may also need a rather interesting connection to the car. That amount of power will need high voltages if it is to be transferred through something that can still bend.

                1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

                  Re: Great news - umpteen enumerated

                  Clock tower and thunderstorm, perhaps?

          2. tip pc Silver badge
            Trollface

            Re: Great news

            might need petrol gensets too as maybe not enough diesel to go around.

            1. hplasm
              Big Brother

              Re: Great news

              Treadmills for the great unwashed...

          3. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

            Re: Great news

            Most of the latest generation of chargers will put out 350KW quite happily - the issue is that most cars can't take that, and even those that can (currently I think just the Porsche Taycan) will only accept it for a short period (ie between 10%-50% charge state)

            If you've got a battery that is theoretically able to take more than 350kW, hopefully that means it will accept at least 350KW no matter what state the battery is in - and that would be a huge leap in itself. It would take an 80kW pack from 10-100% in 12 minutes flat.

            For what it's worth I was chatting to a charge station repair guy a few months back (I was at the Gridserve on the M6, so it's a given it was in need of repair and I had to wait). I'm sure I remember him saying the station itself was able to support about 500MW per unit but they were capped at 350MW. Maybe by the time these batteries are hitting the market we'll be seeing chargers able to deliver that.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Great news

              I suspect that current batteries would grow dendrites so quickly you wouldn't be able to charge it for very long until the thing shorted out.

              That said, it's good to see tech is still being pushed further. There's no denying it has advanced at an impressive clip.

              1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

                Re: Great news

                Re. Dendrites, big time. Samsung have presumably cracked that too, as the second part of the announcement is the 20 year lifespan.

                I know we've had "new battery tech!" announcements every few months for years now and have all got a bit jaded, but it feels very different when it comes from a manufacturer rather than a research lab. I'll be following this one with interest.

                Also I need to correct my last post as I now remember the conversation with the repair man. The station was able to deliver at least 350kW per charger but they were capped at 150kW. Not as impressive sadly.

              2. markrand

                Re: Great news

                The classical cure for dendrites in NiCd batteries was to briefly charge them at many times the design rate to burn the dendrites back. it worked as a temporary fix many times.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Great news

                  I suspect with lithium you're just quicker in converting the vehicle into an unquenchable fire..

      2. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

        Re: Great news

        The infrastructure doesn't exist for everyone to have an EV and be needing to charge it up frequently, here in the UK, some 40% or more of housing stock is unsuitable for having a home charger. It's old, has no parking, and the doors are right onto the path along narrow roads without enough room for everyone to even park a car outside their own home because you can only park on one side of the street.

        So a car that only needs charging every few weeks and can be done in a very short period of time... is very appealing to people.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Great news

          Yet the RAC reckons that figure is only 20%...

          But the real question is do you really only park at home? Chargers (particularly AC ones) should be ubiquitous... supermarkets, cinemas, restaurants, work places, libraries, hospitals...

          If you can charge anywhere, and you should be able to, then range isn't a huge concern.

          Besides which 150 miles will do most people for a week (the average UK mileage is ~20/day). That's ~5kWh/day, or 45 minutes of single phase charging - three phase charging will drop that to 15 minutes for cars which support it. Most cars are parked for 23 hours a day, finding a handful of minutes somewhere with a charger really shouldn't be beyond the wit of anyone.

          Note that I'm not saying that the chargers already exist... but supermarket chains are starting to put in chargers, and we do have more than a couple of months to roll out more.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Great news

            "Chargers (particularly AC ones) should be ubiquitous... supermarkets, cinemas, restaurants, work places, libraries, hospitals..."

            How many chargers at such locations? If you say lots, who's going to pay for them? If it's just one it will work for you if very few others have EVs. Once everyone has an EV you're going to be lucky to find one available when you need it.

            Certainly a charging time akin to refuelling an ICE would be a great advantage although about 3 times as many connections would be necessary but you then have to worry about getting all that power to the filling station.

            1. Jr4162

              Re: Great news

              Tesla apparently has a feature where their chargers communicate with each other. A charger with a car attached to it whose battery is nearly dead gets higher priority than a car whose battery is half charged. The car with the dead battery gets charged at a higher speed than the cars that are being topped up.

              If you have a group of these chargers you can get away with having smaller amount of power being wired to the group than you would if you assumed each charger could be drawing full power and multiplied accordingly.

              I can see a business model where car owners pay more $$ to get their car charged faster..

            2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

              Re: Great news

              You'll also lose some parking space. And around these parts, at least, if there were chargers at every parking spot at "supermarkets, cinemas, restaurants, work places, libraries, hospitals", there still wouldn't be anywhere near as many as we'd need if we replaced all the ICE vehicles with EVs.

              1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

                Re: Great news

                As I already said, roadside chargers exist and are being installed like crazy round here. You can have one for every roadside parking space if so desired. I'm pretty sure they're all home charger style AC chargers, not DC fast chargers, at this point, because that fits with the electricity supply to suburban roads, but that's fine: it puts people without driveways on a level with those who have big houses with driveways, which is all that matters.

              2. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

                Re: Great news

                I see that as an advantage, really. Parking spots would have to be large enough to accommodate a charger on both sides, and presumably the charger would need to be able to handle a car on both sides since you just KNOW that they won't standardize what side of the car the charge port needs to be on. Anyway, parking spaces would have to be large enough that door dings are a thing of the past, and that's a positive result.

          2. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

            Re: Great news

            Do you know how many chargers there are at most of these places.... hint... it's not very many. Around here within 15 miles in any direction. I've seen just 8, two at the closest Lidl, two each in separate car parks in the nearest town and two at a small ASDA.

            There are about 65,000 people who live in a 250sq/m area where I am... and excluding home chargers or those on private land (some camp/caravan grounds have them too)... that's all I know of... 8. Sure there could be more. But we travel around here a decent amount, taking the dog to woodlands, lakes and the beaches and having lunches at every coastal village and small town since we've been here... Touristy places and I'm just not seeing chargers at all.

            My sister... well, there aren't any near her at all. She runs a small holiday let on her property and has guests asking about charging their EV's... she has to point them to the nearest town 10 miles away and they have to cross their fingers one of the few available is free. They've recently made friends with a caravan site about 5 miles away from them who has a charger for his guests and if it's free they could use that... But it's that big 'if' once more.

            I'm all for EV's... but I'm even more for building out the infrastructure to support them first and that's simply not happening. Once again, anyone not in a large town or city is irrelevant and not worth the expense of building it.

            That's why an EV makes no sense to anyone in my area. About 50% of the homes around me have no off street parking.

            1. YetAnotherLocksmith Silver badge

              Re: Great news

              If only there was a little joined up thinking and common sense applied to this.

              The UK needs more robust infrastructure, all over. Everything needs modernisation after 14 years of tory neglect or, worse, fire sales for fast shareholder profit.

              A modern, wired up grid that can send power from wind and solar to car chargers? It isn't beyond the wit of man. It isn't even hard, if you're in the countryside and have 6kW of solar (and, of course, could add far more) and bingo, most of the strain of charging the car is on the solar panels that are on the garage roof!

              Excess power to and from the grid, blah blah...

              Scotland has enough wind farm now that it is completely able to power itself 3x over. And we have a nuclear power plant for base load.

              Charging a car is very, very easy, if you don't have to pump the electricity all the way to England and back again. (Have the tories paid out for those interconnects yet, or are they still paying the wind farms to stand idle as the South of England runs out of electricity?)

            2. chriskno

              Re: Great news

              I've been on self catering holidays where there are no chargers within miles, but have always come to an agreement that I can plug the car into a 13amp plug which gives me 3Kwh. Overnight the car is charged. Used to do it quite often in the early days, not such a problem these days.

        2. sedregj

          Re: Great news

          I can't work out where I can fit the petrol pump outside my house.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Great news

            It's interesting that people feel free to store their private motor vehicles on public property but can't imagine it being used to accommodate anything else.

        3. Dave K

          Re: Great news

          For current vehicles, you are correct. But if you can get down to 9 minute charging times, it makes charging stations viable that aren't too dissimilar to today's petrol stations. Pull up, plug the car in for 10 minutes, pay and drive away. After all, it takes around 5 minutes to park, refuel and pay at the moment with fossil fuel stations.

          The problem for EVs has always been slow charging, so needing somewhere to leave your car for a sizeable amount of time to charge - which is a major problem for those without off-street parking available to them. I'm hopeful that this may change things. Of course, you are going to need a hefty electrical supply for somewhere that 30+ vehicles can charge simultaneously at these speeds...

          1. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

            Re: Great news

            That'd be great... but it's always a hundreds 'ifs' and a very few 'cans'

            I'm all for going greener where I actually can. I've reduced meat and have at least 1 or 2 vegetarian meals a week, we recycle practically everything and try to reduce buying things wrapped in plastics where possible. I have 4kw of solar on the house and 15kwh of battery storage. My house has effectively been off grid since the 14th April, it's 12 days and all we've imported in those 12 days is less than 5kwh of energy because there's always a trickle as the inventor switches between solar/battery/grid as generation and load fluctuates.

            But the places we go to, are not large towns and cities with tens of thousands of residents and multiple supermarket chains and shops... they're small barely big enough to be called a town places, villages by the sea that are virtually free from big chains and full of local businesses. I've seen just 8 chargers within 15 miles of us.

            1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

              Re: Great news

              I think you'll find that your local council isn't doing the work they should be because your neighbours are all mouthbreathing brexiteer conspiracy theorists, rather than any other reason. Putting in roadside chargers isn't hard.

        4. chriskno

          Re: Great news

          I think its about 100% of ICE cars that can't fill up at home. Had an EV since 2018 when public charging was tricky but I have never run out. Vastly improved today, albeit still parts of the country that need to improve.

          1. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

            Re: Great news

            There's a filling station almost everywhere, takes 5 minutes to use and the fuel is good for months. Not filling at home, therefore is not a problem. Taking an hour or more is a problem. At a filling staton, that means a spot can either theoretically handle 288 cars a day, or 24 cars a day. A charging station would need 12 parking spots to do the same work as 1 gasoline pump. Gas stations where Iive usually have 16 or more gas pumps, which would require 192 parking spots to duplicate. Plus you'd need something for 192 people to do during the hour they're charging. Yes, it's possible to charge faster IF you're willing to risk the charging station being operational as fast chargin requires a nearly dead battery. ICE cars, on the other hand, can be filled from any amount to any amount between 0 gallons and the tank's capacity in the same amount of time.

            The biggest issues continue to be charging speed and infrastructure buildout, and none of this will change no matter how snarky EV proponents want to be about it.

      3. Mishak Silver badge

        Winter

        So you can have enough heating to take the coat and hat off and still get somewhere.

        The range at higher speeds (70mph) in the winter is only good enough if you can get prompt access to fast chargers and don't drive for too long.

        Great round town though, regardless of the temperatures.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Winter

          So you've never driven anything more recent than a first gen nissan leaf?

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Winter

            Go back and read "prompt access to chargers". How do you get that if all the cars on the road are EVs? Yes, I know right now it's relatively few but if provision is made for what's planned then the plan is going to come apart and private vehicle ownership will be restricted to a relative few. The knock on effect of that are that if at present, many depend on ICE vehicles to get to work what happens when those are taken away? That alternative has to be planned for.

            TL;DR We need something that scales.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Winter

              On the plus side, range extenders* still run on diesel so there's a backup.

              *aka towing trucks ;)

          2. Mishak Silver badge

            Re: Winter

            This is a Hyundai Kona 64kWh. Range on the motorway in the winter is about 220 miles and 300+ round town in the summer.

            1. Mishak Silver badge

              Thumbs down for what?

              Reporting the facts?

      4. khjohansen

        Re: Great news

        - The "can do that for 20 years" is the main selling point for me!

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Great news

          Yes, when the battery is a major portion of the cost of the car, you really want it last the life of the car, not turn it into an unsellable paperweight after less than 5 years. I think battery life span, charge time and then range is the order of priority for those like me. Other will have different priorities of course, eg those who like to buy a new car every 2, 3, 4 years. (although even those people might see a significant drop in trade-in/re-sale value if the remaining battery life is no longer valuable.

          1. VicMortimer Silver badge

            Re: Great news

            My plug-in hybrid is 11 years old. The battery is fine.

            Battery lifespan in cars is not the problem you think it is.

          2. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

            Re: Great news

            The battery storage I have in my home (15kwh) has a 12 yr warranty on it... which I find pretty decent.

      5. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Re: Great news

        Sometimes your range drops a bit because you're, oh, towing a trailer or something.

        And sometimes you want some margin because, say, the place where you were planning to recharge turns out to be unavailable. I drove into Clayton, NM on a trip once planning to get lunch and refuel, only to discover some guy with a backhoe had taken out the whole town's power. It's over 70km from Clayton to the next place large enough to have a gas station. If I'd had an EV, even in the marvelous future world where charging stations are as common as gas stations, I'd have been damned glad of a healthy chunk of remaining range. (And this was in the middle of summer, so extra power for A/C would be much appreciated.)

        As it is, I have on many occasions gone 550-600km between stops.

        So, frankly, while 1200km might seem excessive, in real-world use it's not much over what my minimum requirement would be for an EV. Figure 600km when towing, plus at least 100km margin (again, when towing). That probably works out to at least 900km of manufacturer-claimed range.

        1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

          Re: Great news

          You actually have a use-case for massive range, but I don't know how common that is even in the US, where people routinely seem to drive distances to the nearest shop that people in the UK think of as road-trips :)

          I'm not sure I've ever driven 500-600km in a day, let alone in one stint. Do you pee in a bottle?

    3. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

      Re: Great news

      I've heard that if your Hyundai gets some scuffs and scratches to the tray surrounding the battery... it requires a whole new car as they claim there's no way to determine if the batteries are damaged. But don't worry, they'll offer you a cool discount of a few grand on that new car... Warranty doesn't cover things like the car being driven over surfaces that might flick stuff up at the battery cover..... you know... ROADS!!!

      I guess... taking the tray off and inspecting the batteries is a skill that is beyond their capabilities.

    4. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: repairability

      Elon is IMHO deliberately setting out to make unrepairable cars. A simple fender bender? Sorry that's totaled.

      He has no desire to mend anything then you can have his latest blandmobile on your drive in a week.

      1. Andy The Hat Silver badge

        Re: repairability

        wondered how long it would take before something was Elon's fault ...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: repairability

          Quite accurately, though.

      2. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

        Re: repairability

        I think that's just a trend in all car manufacturing over the years. Long gone is the ability for a home mechanic to replace a wing for example following a scrape, now that they form part of the chassis. The denser packaging of engine bays and electronic components, extensive sensors in and around the car, integrated "entertainment" systems, CAN bus wiring, etc. etc.

        The same is true in other consumer goods as well. Mobile phones (fixed batteries), computers (soldered in processors, integrated network controllers vs swappable PCI cards), all harder to modify or repair than they used to be. That said, I've repaired our boiler and washing machine by swapping the whole controller board in one operation so maybe not everything is getting harder. I was once not impressed by the cost of a plastic injection moulded part for the washing machine, epoxy resin was a lot cheaper.

        A friend of mine once had a minor paint scuff on the rear wing of his expensive car, enough to need it respraying. The insurance bill for just the labor was about £5k because the design was such that the rear side window couldn't be masked off, it had to be removed. It was built by fitting the window from the inside to keep the aesthetics of the car looking good. So the first job was to remove the leather interior to get the window glass out. This was about 10 years ago, and not an EV.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: repairability

          Wing?

          You guys have flying cars over there and didn't tell us?

          American cars don't have wings. I mean, other than the big one on the back that the ricers have installed. They think it makes the car go faster.

          1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

            Re: repairability

            Blimey, that was a harsh downvite from someone.

            Yeah, wings. It's what us Brits call the body panels on each corner, that incorporate the external parts of the wheel arches.

            Or, it's a British conspiracy to withhold the fact that we have had true flying cars for over 50 years, but nobody knows because the cloaking devices work so well and I've just accidentally let it slip and I'm trying to cover it up again.

    5. Magani
      Facepalm

      Re: Great news

      "Won't catch fire thanks to built-in vents."

      From the same train of thought that brought you the 'unsinkable' Titanic.

      1. TonyJ

        Re: Great news

        Yeah... I can accept "far less likely to" but "won't" seems to just be tempting fate.

        My driving miles have dropped by an order of magnitude from it's peak 20 or so years ago of an average of 1,000 a week to last year, just shy of 4,000 for the whole year which would put EV's into the more practical territory for me.

        But one of the things that has put me off has been a lack of fast charging and infrastructure because whilst I would like to think that I'll never return to such ridiculous numbers of miles, there's no guarantee it won't go back up to 30/40k a year again if something like my job changes down the line.

        The idea that I could park up, plug in, grab a coffee and a toilet break and be done in 10 minutes is *very* appealing. Add in the range. Add in the life. I'd be fully sold.

        However, I've seen way to many battery concepts shown over the years that have never come to fruition that until such a time as I see them in a car, I'll remain cynical (and even then, I'll remain cynical about the stated life until evidence backs it up).

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Great news

          "However, I've seen way to many battery concepts shown over the years that have never come to fruition that until such a time as I see them in a car, I'll remain cynical (and even then, I'll remain cynical about the stated life until evidence backs it up)."

          They do seem to be quite confident in the new batteries by announcing projected production dates of only a few years. It can take that long to fit out and commission a production line, which means to me that they probably already have working prototypes and have worked out how to get them into production and are in at least the early stages of planning those factories. I'd like to think that is the case because it could be a game changer. And yes, I have noted the comments regarding charging infrastructure and whether that will scale to match :-)

        2. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

          Re: Great news

          Covid changed my driving habits... I now do less than 5000 miles a year and that's had a positive effect on my car insurance because I've set my yearly miles to 6000. During 2020, I did less than 1500 all year according to the MOT readings.

          I do a little more now, but that's because we moved to a more rural area in 2022... there's a few small shops locally but if we want the bigger stores, it's a 30 mile round trip at least. If you want the bigger high street stores like M & S, or a visit to a cinema, it's a 55m round trip

    6. Hairy Spod

      Re: Great news

      Pretty much any car that's in a collision where the airbags deploy these days is a write off, its not just EVs.

      1. Gene Cash Silver badge

        Re: Great news

        I don't think you're taking into consideration how hair-trigger current airbags are.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Great news

      That's really mainly a Tesla thing as Musk was trying to scrape as much out of the barrel for instant profit. One of the reasons I was never interested in Teslas beyond the Model S: if you know where to look you quickly spot they're made on the cheap (if the panel gaps weren't enough of a hint already).

      EVs made by established manufacturers sort of come with established dealer networks and repair processes, and they exist for the best reason to keep them going: it makes money. The whole parts infrastructure, however, is very expensive to set up and takes a while as there is a whole supply chain tied into this. As a matter of fact, stories of Tesla trying to abuse their control over Teslas to prevent people from recycling parts of Teslas that got caught in an accident are a plenty. Not a good look IMHO for durability as maintenance matters, even if there's little of it.

    8. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

      Re: Great news

      A new battery chemistry that doesn't involve lithium should do just that, eliminate the need for a car to be scrapped from a minor fender bender. So would new regulation requiring EV makers to include a battery test system that will pinpoint battery damage, and require that battery packs be repairable. If a few cells are found to be damaged, it should absolutely be possible to replace just those cells. The hundred bucks per car implementation cost would easily be made up by insurance costs going down. It is just a matter of time before insurance companies raise the rates on EVs dramatically to make up for minor accidents requiring cars to be totaled due to there being no way to check or repair batteries.

      This solves one of the three problems preventing mass adoption of EVs. The second is electrical supply, and the third is recharging points and no, charging at home is NOT a viable answer. Right now, rich folks who can afford garages see no problem with home charging but the masses live in apartments; no dedicated parking, so no dedicated charging.

      1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

        Re: Great news

        On-street charging points are going in on all the streets round where I live. It's not rocket surgery.

  2. toejam++

    How many DCFC stations will support such speeds?

    It costs a fair bit of coin to install 250 kW charging stations. For a car that can add 1200 km of range in ten minutes, you're looking at what, 2 MW per charger? How much more will each of those stations cost, especially in remote areas lacking transmission capacity or facilities with a large numbers of stations? I can only imagine how much more that'll drive up the price of DC fast charging away from home.

    1. Pete 2 Silver badge

      Re: How many DCFC stations will support such speeds?

      > what, 2 MW per charger?

      Pretty close, yes.

      For argument's sake, Let's start at about 5 miles range per kWh of battery.

      So 750 miles range ('pollies for using units that hardly anyone knows about any more) is 150kWh. Add in charging inefficiencies so maybe 200kWh into the charger.

      To deliver that in 10 minutes is 1.2MW.

      1. jmch Silver badge

        Re: How many DCFC stations will support such speeds?

        5 miles / 8 km per kWh is 125 Wh/km, that's pretty optimistic. For example ionic 6 is around 150 and KIA ev6 around 175. Bigger SUV-ish or sporty EVs are pushing 200. 5 to 6km/ kWh is more realistic.

        On the other hand, 1200 km charge in 10 min isn't needed... If you can do a 10 minute topup, 800km is more than enough, that's what a current diesel gets you now. So I'd say you need about 140kWh topup in 10 min, maybe 150-160 considering inefficiencies (I don't think its so inefficient when charging up to 80%). So 1MW would be quite sufficient for these parameters. With 600 km range in 10 min (which I also think more than enough) it would be 750kW.

        One other thing, the above range estimates still require gigantic batteries, 120-160kWh and more, which is double current average ones... Costs would need to decrease a lot...

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: How many DCFC stations will support such speeds?

          "Costs would need to decrease a lot..."

          ...and batteries with larger capacity and 2-4 times the usable lifespan will always cost more because there will be less return custom. And don't forget the early adopter price premium because every manufacturer wants an ROI measured in months or very few years, not many years or decades.

      2. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: How many DCFC stations will support such speeds?

        You're adding 30% charging loss?

        That's supremely pessimistic 5% isn't unreasonable, and it usually gets better at higher power (or rather worse at lower power).

        Total loss from the cable to the wheels will be well under 30% (though into the double digits)

        Current chargers are 350kW capable - that's (taking a reasonable 4m/kWh) 1400 mph...

        Let's assume 200 miles between stops (since a break every three hours is reasonable) that's 1/7th of an hour, or eight and a half minutes.

        Given a break every three hours, I'm likely to need to spend a penny in the local facilities... and the car can easily beat me.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How many DCFC stations will support such speeds?

          I suspect you'd have to add 30% to the costs, though - if I see the prices charged (sorry) they're a long way away from what I pay per kWh at home. The markup is pretty much daylight robbery.

          1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

            Re: How many DCFC stations will support such speeds?

            Finally, a post no-one is going to disagree with. Well, except to point out that 30% is a bit low.

          2. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

            Re: How many DCFC stations will support such speeds?

            Electric light robbery, surely?

            Honestly, I think public chargers are always going to be more expensive than home use, because someone has to pay for the chargers to be built. The main problem is our electricity prices are still so ridiculously high.

    2. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge

      Re: How many DCFC stations will support such speeds?

      It's not just the cost, it's the disruption. The main road near me was closed repeatedly for weeks to install a few high voltage cables for six EV charging points in a nearby service station.

      I'm hoping for greater power requirements it doesn't scale the disruption, and that more is from digging up the road than actually working on cables and associated infrastructure.

      1. I am David Jones Silver badge

        Re: How many DCFC stations will support such speeds?

        I hear that climate change can be quite disruptive too…

    3. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

      Re: How many DCFC stations will support such speeds?

      The exciting bit here isn't the charging speed, it's the density. 900WH/liter is over triple the best energy density of LiFePo4, if I remember correctly. I don't know how the actual density compares - would these also be three times heavier per liter? - but if not, we could see cars with 900 mile range on the market.

      At that point high-speed charging stations only becomes necessary for really long trips - you could drive London to Edinburgh and back, just so long as you can spend a few days plugged into a lamppost at 7kW on your return.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: How many DCFC stations will support such speeds?

        Considering I can get 9.6kW from the charger in my driveway, that's not a problem.

        Driving from London to Edinburgh would be, mostly because driving to London first would involve an ocean.

        But it would mean driving from Knoxville to Chicago wouldn't even need a single stop, and charging at my buddy's house there would take care of the trip back, no high speed charging needed at all. Better be sure the seat's comfy, I'm notorious for driving straight through. Huh, by 2029 L4 self driving will probably be standard, once I got on the interstate I'd be able to take a five hundred mile nap.

  3. Pete 2 Silver badge

    The waiting game

    > it is ready to roll out its solid-state-batteries with a range of 745 miles (1200 km) and charge time of 10 minutes by 2025.

    Great!

    In that case I will delay buying an EV until that battery is in cars.

    Oh, and until the charging infrastructure can delivery the aforementioned charging rate. So maybe a little (or considerably longer) time after that.

    (Would it be nit-picky to point out that batteries don't have an intrinsic range, it depends entirely in what vehicle they are installed in: an electric scooter or Humvee)

    1. simonlb Silver badge

      Re: The waiting game

      Well these are more likely to see the light of day as this is Samsung who do actually know a bit about manufacturing. It isn't some vapourware from Elon Musk that is perennially at the 'in 2 years' stage.

      1. Snowy Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: The waiting game

        Not sure these are not also "vapourware 'in 2 years' stage" considering the article put them two years plus away.

        The ultra-fast charging battery will enter production in 2026. The long-lived product will start rolling off factory floors in 2029.

        2 years to start production and another 3 years before they roll of the production line, something seems to be a bit off there.

        1. cyberdemon Silver badge
          Holmes

          Re: The waiting game

          I read that as "we'll start making some small batch prototypes at EV size in 2 years and flog them to some mugs early-adopters, then make the decision by 2029 as to whether this is really feasible/scalable"

          I note their latest published prototype (2020) was a 0.6Ah pouch cell, i.e. the size of a disposable vape battery.

          Clearly they reckon they can scale it up, but at what cost/sustainability remains to be seen.

    2. I am David Jones Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: The waiting game

      Is it nit-picky? Yes and worth an upvote.

      1. cyberdemon Silver badge
        Holmes

        nit-picky

        Well...

        An e-scooter obviously couldn't carry a 1-tonne battery. There comes a point where simply increasing the size and weight of the battery does not improve range. See: the Tesla Semi, which at maximum range configuration can only carry a half payload.

        The maximum range of any electric vehicle is indeed tied to the energy density of the battery technology, because it has to lug the battery around, and it doesn't get any lighter as it discharges.

        1. I am David Jones Silver badge
          Headmaster

          Re: nit-picky

          “doesn’t get lighter as it discharges”

          Actually it does. e=mc^2 and all that. Admittedly, unlikely to make much of a difference.

          What I only recently found out (and haven’t tested) is that, when dropped, a new AA will sound different to an empty one.

          1. I am David Jones Silver badge
            Headmaster

            Re: nit-picky

            Ok ok, I couldn’t help myself

            A battery loses about 40 nanograms of mass for every discharged 100 kwh.

        2. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

          Re: nit-picky

          My e-bike has a 500wh battery and weighs about 27kwh before I added the pannier bags and my large self into the mix.

          It's claimed to have a range of up to 80 miles. I've never actually got that higher than about 55 miles... But that's because I don't live in a factory test facility. I actually cycle outdoors, into gusty winds, up hills where some extra help is required due to old sporting injuries that leave me unable to use a regular bike these days.

          On a regular bike, I'd struggle to do 5 miles and would be exhausted at the end... on the e-bike, 15 miles rides are the norm and the furthest I've gone so far is 22 miles... and that's mainly due to a lack of cycle routes near me, each one ends at a beach... which is great. But leaves little option for exploring further due to dangerous narrow, twisty country roads around here.

  4. chuckufarley Silver badge

    So why does everyone...

    ...equate a Musk-y reality check with a decline in demand for EV's? I would love an EV! I just can't afford one because living in a city like Chicago I have to pay as much for parking as I do for the car. Just because people have stopped buying Teslas because Elon has picked the wrong horse in the race to test the limits of free speech doesn't mean we don't want them. We just want them to be affordable and not finance wing nuts that take things out of context for a living.

    1. Khaptain Silver badge

      Re: So why does everyone...

      Can we please stop using the name Musk for Tesla related things. Why not just say Tesla, I think most people couldn't give a shit about E. Musk. What is important is how Tesla are doing.

      Where I live, Teslas are quite easily the largest number of EVs driving around, they are expensive so I can only imagine that they are reasonably good cars, otherwise people would be spending their money on alternatives.

      So if we see that Telsa is not doing well and no-one else is sky rocketing I can presume it is reasonable to use Tesla as an indicator.

      1. chuckufarley Silver badge

        Re: So why does everyone...

        Maybe your neighbor still bought a Tesla after the X free speech clown show, but mine did not. I think if you look at the demographics of those that used to buy Teslas and those who are buying them now you will find some interesting signs of people voting with their wallets.

        1. Khaptain Silver badge

          Re: So why does everyone...

          "Maybe your neighbor still bought a Tesla after the X free speech clown show"

          Do you honestly believe that the majority of EV buyers take into account E. Musk's politics when weighing out the benefits/inconveniences of buying their next car.. If you do then it's time to get out into the fresh air for a while, the online forums/tiktoks are definitely not what keeps the world ticking.

        2. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

          Re: So why does everyone...

          One of my neighbours has literally bought a 'used' tesla in the last few months... and is now complaining that people are mocking him for it.

          Another neighbour has had one for years... and no longer tells anyone what he drives because of the way people look at him... He has to explain that he got one because of a work deal through the hydro plant he works at and only tesla models were on that deal.

          So yes... musks putrid, hate spewing vile bigotry should be used in direct comparison to the woes of tesla. just like his attempts at stock manipulation should be called out for what they are too.

          1. Khaptain Silver badge

            Re: So why does everyone...

            "So yes... musks putrid, hate spewing vile bigotry should be used in direct comparison to the woes of tesla. just like his attempts at stock manipulation should be called out for what they are too."

            So everyone that works for Tesla should be tarred with the same brush according to you ?

            After considering the above statement , I don't really see the difference between Musks so called bigotry and yours, it appears to be on par.

            1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

              Re: So why does everyone...

              You don't see a difference between racism and hating racists? Jesus, what a cesspit the Reg has become.

              1. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

                Re: So why does everyone...

                Muskrat apologists don't see the bigotry... they're too far into the coolaid to have the ability for rational and logical thought... If they were capable of it... they'd be calling him out for the same shit the rest of us sane people do. :)

          2. TheMeerkat

            Re: So why does everyone...

            These attacks on Elon Musk because of Twitter show how awfully polarised the USA became. This can only end badly.

            And it is the fault of both sides.

            Yes, it is your fault too, you are spreading your type hate speech too when you hate Elon Musk.

            1. YetAnotherLocksmith Silver badge

              Re: So why does everyone...

              Elno, who just boosts the racists by retweeting their vile shite out to millions and millions of accounts? Every single day? That guy?

              You should look into the works of Carl Poplar.

              Calling for those promoting genocide & quoting Russian propaganda, and the like, to be deplatformed is not the same as calling for genocide. If you think that, you're a blithering idiot.

          3. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

            Re: So why does everyone...

            Rather than arguing over supposition and anecdote, maybe you two would like to look for some evidence one way or the other?

            There's the widely-cited Strategic Vision 2022 BEI survey that showed a dramatic drop in Tesla purchases by Democrats, for example. (That's a CNN link because it's not paywalled; the WSJ and various other outlets across the spectrum carried similar.) A 2023 Bloomberg survey showed that many of the then-owners of Tesla Model 3 it had surveyed a few years before increasingly disliked Musk and that "Musk, according to the survey, is the leading reason owners walk away from Tesla".

            On the other hand, in the Bloomberg survey, only a small minority had in fact moved away from Tesla — it's just those who had, most often cited Musk as the reason. That led Fortune to declare that Musk had hurt his own brand but not Tesla's.

            That's only two studies, and small ones with not particularly rigorous methodology at that. But they're better than "I don't think..." and "I know someone who...". And what they show is that the perception of Musk has blown back on Tesla to a measurable extent, but the evidence from these studies at least (which of course is also now somewhat dated, in this fast-moving area) doesn't show a huge decline in the "brand equity" (to use SV's term) of Tesla. It doesn't seem sufficient to explain most of Tesla's recent sales woes, for example.

            So you're both wrong, to a first approximation.

        3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: So why does everyone...

          How politics and other things might affect futures sales of Teslas is definitely something IMO, but a quick look at the top 10 EVs registered in the UK shows about 55,000 Teslas, taking the top 2 spots and the various other models taking spots 3 - 10 also adds up to approx. 55,000.

          Teslas have, of course, been available for a longer time period, the others playing catch-up and there still a level of public perception of "EV = Tesla". It'll be interesting to look at that same top 10 list next year.

      2. that one in the corner Silver badge

        Re: So why does everyone...

        > they are expensive so I can only imagine that they are reasonably good cars, otherwise people would be spending their money on alternatives.

        Have a think about "Veblen goods" and "conspicuous consumption" and stretch your imagination.

        1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: So why does everyone...

          Also, at least in the US — I don't know to what extent this has been researched in the UK or elsewhere — studies show that although automobiles are often the most or second-most (after a home) expensive purchase the typical consumer makes, very little research or rational calculation goes into making a choice. Buyers in the US have been shown to be far more careful about buying, say, breakfast cereal, than they are about buying cars, in the aggregate.

          This is likely due to many adverse psychological factors, a combination of the fact that margins on automobile sales make it feasible to employ dedicated salespeople who can apply pressure; the usual vast array of psychological traps and fallacies (brand loyalty, affect heuristic, availability heuristic, anchoring, etc); and the fact that large and therefore risky purchases are often emotionally overwhelming and thereby discourage consideration.

          Expecting rational economic actors is an axiomatic error, but in this case it's even more erroneous.

      3. Casca Silver badge

        Re: So why does everyone...

        hey are reasonably good cars

        No they are not. All the "car" related parts is crap. Who has ever needed to replace the steering column on a new car due to wear?

      4. nintendoeats Silver badge

        Re: So why does everyone...

        I've been in two electric cars. One was a fast Tesla Model S, which I drove. The other was a Nissan Leaf.

        For something I was going to drive very fast down a B-road, the Tesla. For actually owning and driving in the real world, the Nissan. the Muskmobile was literally falling apart, and that huge touchscreen is pure vanity mixed with cost-savings.

    2. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: So why does everyone...

      Demand for all new vehicles is falling. EV or not.

      Many of the people who would normally buy a new car every two to three years have decided to keep their current one for a couple of years longer. That then means the people who would have bought that car are keeping theirs, and so on.

      The reasons are many, but basically come down to cost and income inequality.

      Prices have risen, while many wages haven't kept up - the difference being skimmed off to the multi-billionaires.

      The interim result is that mass-market new cars stop selling. Longer term...

      1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

        Re: So why does everyone...

        "Demand for all new vehicles is falling. EV or not"

        Not sure if by "all new vehicles" you mean commercial vehicles as well, but for just cars, demand is increasing.

        This market report from last month says "Global new car sales grew by almost 10% after remaining stable in 2022"

        https://www.acea.auto/publication/economic-and-market-report-global-and-eu-auto-industry-full-year-2023/

        1. YetAnotherLocksmith Silver badge

          Re: So why does everyone...

          It's not that simple.

          India and China are getting richer, and have literally billions of people who want a car. You need to look at the West, which, quite honestly, is where most of us live, and the trends for your own country, which are masked by the East.

          1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

            Re: So why does everyone...

            "You need to look at the West, which, quite honestly, is where most of us live, and the trends for your own country, which are masked by the East."

            Well, I was deliberately considering the global picture but that's a fair challenge. UK sales of EVs (strictly registrations, but I'm assuming they are pretty much the same) have at least stayed steady and slightly increased. The graph here shows cumulative numbers, so the difference from one year to the next is what is needed to get the actual yearly registrations. There appears to be a dip in 2024 because that is 2024 year to date compared with 2023 full year, so incomplete.

            https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/ev-market.

            The source for that (an industry body) says that comparing January 2024 to January 2023, there was a 21% increase in battery EV sales, but it didn't go back any further so it doesn't show any long term trend. https://www.smmt.co.uk/2024/02/uk-reaches-million-ev-milestone-as-new-car-market-grows/

            Other websites are citing a reduction in battery EV market share as doom and gloom for EVs, but I think that's simply reflecting that sales of hybrid cars has increased by more than any other category of car, so that doesn't give the full story. Market share not being the same as absolute numbers of course. This is all for the UK. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-13271207/Electric-car-sales-falter-drivers-turn-hybrids.html starts with "Although electric vehicle registrations grew by 3.8 per cent in March, they made up a smaller percentage of all car sales compared to the same month a year ago"

    3. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

      Re: So why does everyone...

      "equate a Musk-y reality check with a decline in demand for EV's?"

      Quite right. I love the economic fascination with actual numbers and the subsequent higher derivatives of them (rate of change, rate of rate of change etc.).

      Demand for EVs certainly isn't declining. Data on sales of EVs from https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/global-ev-data-explorer shows that sales of battery EVs has increased by double digit percentages every year but one (between 2018 and 2019 when growth was only 7%) since 2010. From 2020 to '21, annual sales went up by 135%, 55% the following year and then "only" 30% last year.

  5. Richard 12 Silver badge
    Boffin

    "anode-free"

    What does that mean?

    I normally connect the wires to the anode and cathode, so how do I plug this thing in?

    To quote a famous philosopher:

    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    1. I am David Jones Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: "anode-free"

      They only need a cathode because they can use a single bi-directional power cable.

      1. Korev Silver badge
        Alien

        Re: "anode-free"

        Is that a bit like unidirection ethernet cables for your HiFi?

      2. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

        Re: "anode-free"

        "They only need a cathode because they can use a single bi-directional power cable"

        Is that a reverse power flux coupling?

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: "anode-free"

      Easy. It generated AC. A bit tricky synching the phase of the charger but otherwise works fine.

    3. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: "anode-free"

      Ha ha, but seriously, the first hit on a search: "An anode-free battery (AFB) is one that is manufactured without an anode. Instead, it creates a metal anode the first time it is charged." (Wikipedia, of course)

      So "packaged without a dedicated anode" might be a more precise formulation.

  6. Zebo-the-Fat

    How about making small ones to fit in phones??

    1. Evil Scot Bronze badge
      Joke

      A phone where the battery lasts a week...

      That is so last century.

      1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        My Motorola G Power, which has a 1Ah battery, lasts for several days with light use even while I cart it into and out of areas with reception (so the radio is doing some work trying to find a signal). I could get a week out of a charge with it easily if I were just using it for SMS in an area with decent signal.

    2. doublelayer Silver badge

      There still might be a size or density problem. You can get massive batteries in phones now, but they make the phones bulky and heavy. This kind of battery may not change that, even though it would be more reliable. In fact, there's also a possibility that the low voltage and draw of a phone would make the benefits less noticeable.

  7. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

    What's the catch?

    A battery that can provide that kind of range and charge in that amount of time... How big is the battery?

    In consumer cars, the largest battery is around 100kwh and allegedly gives up to 400 miles of range. At optimum efficiency, that's in the region of 4 miles per kwh, it also means cars that weigh in the region of several tons.

    700+ miles on a charge... and possibly not even a full charge. They've either increased that to 8-10m p/kwh or batteries are about to get a lot larger and heavier to fit in the same sizes of vehicles... and the heavier the vehicle, the lower that real world mile p/kwh will be.

    1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge

      Re: What's the catch?

      There are lots of variables. Two important ones are volumetric density (kWh/litre of battery pack) and gravimetric density (kWh/kg of battery pack). So different battery chemistries and technologies will store massively different amounts of energy per unit of volume and mass. We already have workable sold-state sodium batteries, as I understand it, but their densities are too low for practical car use, for example.

      That's the fundamental measurement, before we start thinking about the efficiency of how that energy is used by the motors and aerodynamics of the vehicle.

      GJC

      1. jmch Silver badge

        Re: What's the catch?

        Samsung are mentioning 900 Wh/l.... based on current comparison of energy density to specific energy density, that should be approximately 360 Wh/kg, which isn't that groundbreaking. But it still means a current long-range Tesla battery (approx 125 kWh at approx 250 Wh/kg) weighs about half a ton. With that new type of battery you could get 180kWh from a half-ton battery. So absolutely, range can be increased without increasing mass of car.

        1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge
          Pirate

          Re: What's the catch?

          Tesla top out at 100kWh in the Models S&X, and around 75kWh in 3&Y, for the record, but I can confirm that their battery packs are somewhat north of half a ton, having just removed the one from my S85. You don't want to drop them on your foot, for sure.

          Ah, I suppose the new Cybertruck is around 125kWh? I must catch up on the Munro teardown.

          GJC

        2. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

          Re: What's the catch?

          Thanks for that, but even assuming they can increase capacity by about 50% as your figures for the same weight... that's only raising the bar from about 4m/kwh to 6m/kwh well below the claims would have to be.

          I'm certainly no expert and my physics/chemistry knowledge is more conversational... the tech is certainly interesting and I hope we do see some major leaps forward. I'd like an EV at some point, but my next car will be a petrol hybrid of some sort... Not sure if that will be a plug in hybrid or just a petrol one... The mpg claims for some of the plug in ones are ridiculous at 250mpg and assume it's on full electric 95% of the time... which is fine for people who only do trips into town. A petrol hybrid with mpg in the 70-80 range makes more sense for my use.

          I've got 4kw of solar panels on the house and 15.4kwh of battery storage (12.4 directly usable)... We've been running off grid since 8:30am on the 14th April due to the better weather here, in those 10 days, we've imported under 5kwh of electric and we're on track for about 90-100kwh of electric for the entire month.

          I'm ready for when EV's are a realistic choice for some one like me... but that day is not today... or this year, or the next 5yrs

          1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge

            Re: What's the catch?

            As someone who has used pure EVs to travel the length and breadth of the UK and Europe for the last seven years and 120,000 miles, I would urge you to consider carefully. You obviously care about your impact on the planet, do not be dissuaded from doing the right thing by the negative and generally wholly incorrect press articles that we get bombarded by.

            GJC

            1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

              Re: What's the catch?

              745mi range and a charging time of 10minutes gives a charge rate in excess of a Megawatt. Somebody's telling porkies, and I think it's the manufacturers rather than the press per se.

              Also - the environmental impact of building such a massive (>200kWh) battery at a commercial scale is obscenely destructive to the environment. It just happens to be not YOUR (or my) environment, which makes it more palatable to the greenies and tree huggers - because all the pollution and environmental impact takes place in a faraway land where only poor brown people are affected.

              EVs are shockingly bad for the planet. The jury's out on whether they're worse than dino juice vehicles, but there won't be much in it.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: What's the catch?

              > As someone who has used pure EVs to travel the length and breadth of the UK and Europe for the last seven years and 120,000 miles,

              I just thought i'd "pylon" the downvotes for your EV smugness

              The worst thing about EV drivers, worse than when they drive like maniacs, creating a plethora of potholes in the process, not even paying tax to fix them, and borking the local electric grid with their 12kW home chargers, is their smug virtue-signalling, making out as if they are saving the world by paying what only they can afford, to simply move their emissions "somewhere else"

              1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge
                FAIL

                Re: What's the catch?

                And yet, you aren't brave enough to attach your name to that drivel. Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on.

                GJC

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: What's the catch?

                  > Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on.

                  Well, indeed, that's pretty much what I said to you, but without the angry expletive ;)

                2. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                  Re: What's the catch?

                  Touched a nerve?

                  1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

                    Re: What's the catch?

                    What the fuck is wrong with the altright nuts on here these days? You can't say something vile and then complain that people are offended are being oversensitive.

                    1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                      Re: What's the catch?

                      What was vile?

                      1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

                        Re: What's the catch?

                        We all know what it was. You just don't like to admit that the stuff you believe in revolts the 99+% of normal people out there beyond your echo chamber, even though it's pretty obvious that's why everyone shuns you and your kind.

                      2. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

                        Re: What's the catch?

                        Dave314159ggggdffsdds only comes here to be abusive and call everyone anti-semites and racist. Don't take it personally, he does it to everyone.

                        1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

                          Re: What's the catch?

                          How's that tinfoilhat fitting? If you don't like being called what you are, try not being that.

                          1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                            Re: What's the catch?

                            Nobody here has a clue what you’re banging on about, Dave me lad ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

                            1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

                              Re: What's the catch?

                              Everyone knows what you're banging on about, including you. You just don't like being faced with the reality of what you are, which is an increasingly irrelevant clinger.

                        2. This post has been deleted by its author

        3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: What's the catch?

          "Samsung are mentioning 900 Wh/l.... based on current comparison of energy density to specific energy density, that should be approximately 360 Wh/kg, which isn't that groundbreaking."

          They also mention shape and form factor. I wonder if that means they worked out a process to make batteries with a rectangular instead of circular cross section so the space is more fully utilised? Packs of 18650s have a lot of empty space. Only half joking here :-)

          1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge
            Holmes

            Re: What's the catch?

            There's plenty of prismatic cells available, but they can't be packed tightly together as they need to be cooled. The bigger 4680 cylindrical cells get pretty good density.

            GJC

      2. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

        Re: What's the catch?

        Thanks for that, I can't keep up with the news on battery storage tech... seems like there's a new one every week promising great capacities and range for EV's... Meanwhile I'm just trying to eek out more than 55 miles from my e-bike which claims it can do up to 80 miles.... sure... if you leave it in eco mode and don't live near any hills, or have to cope with strong winds in one direction. :)

        1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

          Re: What's the catch?

          Take the stats with a bucket of salt. 745mi range and a 10 minute charging time = charging at more than a Megawatt; the infrastructure doesn't exist for this, and won't for the next 50 years. If at all.

          (and even if it did, the charging cables would weigh more than your car)

          1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge
            Boffin

            Re: What's the catch?

            Three points:

            1) A vehicle capable of charging at a megawatt does not need to charge at a megawatt. My 130kW-capable EV spends most of its charging time at 7kW.

            2) MCS (the Megawatt Charging System, they must have been up all night coming up with that name) is pretty much available today, ready for the new high-capacity vehicles like trucks and buses.

            3) Power is the product of voltage multiplied by current. Cables need to be sized to cope with the current. So moving to 800v rather than 400v halves the size of the required cables. The MCS cables can be handled by one person.

            GJC

            1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

              Re: What's the catch?

              ” 1) A vehicle capable of charging at a megawatt does not need to charge at a megawatt. “

              It does if it wants to charge in 10 minutes, as per the article. Actually slightly north of 1.2MW, continuous.

              ” 2) MCS (the Megawatt Charging System, they must have been up all night coming up with that name) is pretty much available today, ready for the new high-capacity vehicles like trucks and buses.

              At depots and distribution centra; not on-street charging points for cars. To my knowledge there is not one single MW-capable car charger in the UK. And even if they could build the charge points, they’d have to get the power to them - the copper alone would bankrupt them.

              ” 3) Power is the product of voltage multiplied by current. Cables need to be sized to cope with the current. So moving to 800v rather than 400v halves the size of the required cables. The MCS cables can be handled by one person.“

              800v from 400v might halve the size. Going from 150kW to 1MW increases it by a factor of 6. They’re still going to be upwards of three times the thickness.

              1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

                Re: What's the catch?

                Current cables are sized for at least 350MW because that's what the latest chargers deliver, so it would be a factor of three. But actually if you double the current you quadruple the transmission losses, so I expect the cable would be more than tripled. But that's all assuming the new packs would be 800V, and there's no reason to assume that at all.

                1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                  Re: What's the catch?

                  350MW??

                  1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

                    Re: What's the catch?

                    Wishful thinking on my part :-) "Just plugging the car in son, you might want to get behind the blast shield"

                    1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                      Re: What's the catch?

                      :D :D :D

              2. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

                Re: What's the catch?

                What a load of drivel.

                Substations are everywhere, with 11kv supply voltages at the very least. That's how the grid works.

                And the capacity of a circular conductor is related to the square of the thickness, obviously. But in any case they're talking about higher voltages and possibly active cooling rather than thicker conductors.

                This is really DK-central today. Instead of pontificating about what you can infer from what your dimly remembered GCSE science lessons taught you, why not just google how it's actually done?

              3. jmch Silver badge

                Re: What's the catch?

                "800v from 400v might halve the size. Going from 150kW to 1MW increases it by a factor of 6. They’re still going to be upwards of three times the thickness."

                Nitpicking here but "thickness" is generally taken to mean diameter, but >3 times the cross sectional area is about 1.8X thickness.

                Besides, car manufacturers have already moved from 400V to 800V to allow 150kW chargers. They can up the voltage a bit more for MW chargers if necessary.

                But I don't think it actually *is* necessary. While batteries *could* be made of a size where they can have a range of 1200km, there's no point outside of very niche applications (just like fuel tanks could be made to give cars a 1200km range, but most cars top out at around 800km). Human behaviour, even in an ICE car, is to top up if they stop for a rest when the level starts getting low without waiting for the tank to be almost completely dry. Similairly, people won't run their battery right to zero, nor do they top them up all the way to 100% if in a hurry, since after 80% teh charging speed slows down. At a public charger where they want speed, they're going to do say, 10%-ish to 80%-ish, (so around 70% of max capacity).

                Taking an average consumption of 180Wh/km, a recharge enough for 400km is 72kWh, or 90kWh for 500km. That's consistent with a 100kWh battery being topped up by 72kWh or a 130kWh battery being topped up by 90kWh. I just don't see future EVs having batteries much bigger than 130kWh (approximately enough for 700km maximum range) - at that point I think people would rather get a lighter and cheaper car than a longer theoretical range that they would never or almost never use. So I think for consumers 90kWh in 10 minutes (ie 540kW) would be plenty for almost all use cases. And I'm sure there would still be niche MW chargers for commercial vehicles, or maybe in selected strategic motorway spots where the filthy rich are willing to pay to shave 5 minutes off the charge time of their electric Bugattis

            2. DoctorPaul

              Re: What's the catch?

              400v or 800v

              And that's another potential problem. (Pun not intended!)

              If you are unfortunate enough to be involved in a major accident in your EV, I believe that the emergency services will not touch the car to extricate you until they are sure that it won't apply that voltage to them, with fatal results.

              Does anyone know if the problem is genuine, or have I been watching too many episodes of Police Interceptors?

              1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

                Re: What's the catch?

                As usual, it's complete nonsense scaremongering from the anti-EV/trans/vax nutters.

              2. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                Re: What's the catch?

                @DoctorPaul

                Emergency crews won't just abandon you to your fate, but they will make sure they're not in danger first. There are several layers to this; first, all high-voltage packs have isolation relays which are designed to deploy and sever the high-voltage lines in the event of an accident that could involve the battery. In some cases these are pyrotechnic-operated, similar to seatbelts and airbags.

                Second, there are physical isolation ports in EVs which rescue crews are trained to access. Manufacturers are required to make Emergency Response Guides available to rescue crews; these are posted online in various repositories; for example here.

                The problem isn't that rescue crews won't attempt to free you; they will. The problem MIGHT be that before they free you, they'll want to make sure how your particular EV operates, and what visual indicators to look for to make sure the high-voltage lines are disconnected. For popular EVs they'll likely know immediately, for non-standard brands they may need to look it up. And this costs time. And time might be the one thing you don't have if you're bleeding out.

                So yes and no is the answer to your question.

                PS ignore Dave. He's a resident troll here.

                1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

                  Re: What's the catch?

                  ROFL. Calling me a troll while agreeing with me.

                  1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                    Re: What's the catch?

                    Nobody cares, Davey boy. Bye bye.

            3. The Organ Grinder's Monkey

              Re: What's the catch?

              MCS is creeping into existence, though I'm not sure that any chargers currently in service are rated to the maximum 3000A at 1250V that the is the beefiest MCS standard, iirc.

  8. 0laf Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Was I the only one that read - "37th Electric Vehicle Symposium & Exposition "

    As - "37th Electric Vehicle Symposium & Explosion".

  9. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

    re : While battery innovation is welcome, growth in demand for EVs is slowing

    I beg to differ. What that should have said is as follows:-

    While battery innovation is welcome, growth in demand for affordable EVs is slowing.

    The under £25,000 OTR market is ripe for opening up. One of the key factors is the cost of the battery. Get that down to say $50 per kWh and the battery cost becomes much less of an issue.

    Sure, the cheaper end of the market won't have these super-duper-fast charging batteries at first but in time every EV will have them.

    As for Tesla sales... Relying on just two boring models (any colour as long as it is white or you pay extra) is not a recipe for long term survival. The failure of his Muskness to develop a cheaper car is down to his vanity projects (Cybertruck and Semi). One recent report said that he wants that he has got bored by making cars. He is successful with Starlink and thanks to Uncle Sam, SpaceX otherwise, his track record for failures might soon rival his lord and master Donald 'I did nothing wrong, I don't know her, I never met her' Trump.

    1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: re : While battery innovation is welcome, growth in demand for EVs is slowing

      OK, I'll bite...

      Tesla currently have four models of road car, plus the Cybertruck, plus the Semi.

      I find the road cars anything but boring, have you tried driving one?

      Feedback from early purchasers of the Semi seem to indicate that it's about as far from a vanity project as one can get, and any attempt to de-carbonise trucking is *way* more worthwhile than doing the same for passenger cars.

      I'm really hoping that Tesla use what they have learned from the Cybertruck to develop small and mid-sized vans for local delivery work, there's huge amounts of carbon to be taken out of the system there, as Amazon and others are already proving. There's a lot of really innovative technology in that truck, whatever you think of the styling.

      Then there's the "Model 2", or whatever it ends up being called. ~$25,000 car, due for release next year. Yes, this is Tesla, and of course they are trying to develop a whole new never-before-done production method for it, because they get bored doing the same thing, so they'll probably be late, and perhaps a little over the price-point. But it should fill exactly the gap you identify, although I might argue that is close to being solved already with things like the MG4 and various small French and Italian EVs.

      GJC

    2. Pete Sdev Bronze badge

      Re: re : While battery innovation is welcome, growth in demand for EVs is slowing

      any colour as long as it is white or you pay extra

      Based on my admittedly limited knowledge, white cars are always cheaper, regardless of manufacturer.

      1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge

        Re: re : While battery innovation is welcome, growth in demand for EVs is slowing

        It's not always white, but there is normally one or two default colours, with other options costing extra. For a long time it was silver for BMWs, for example.

        GJC

  10. may_i

    So much battery and charging bullshit

    Let's do a little maths to see how achievable any of these preposterous claims about fast charging are.

    A Tesla Model 3 battery has a nominal 75kW/h capacity and it operates at 350V

    To charge it from empty to 80% full therefore requires putting 60kW/h of energy into it (assuming 100% charge efficiency - which is unrealistic)

    If your electricity supply is 240V, you would need to boost it up to 350V for charging. (a 31.33% increase)

    To put 60kW/h of energy into the battery in 10 minutes (1/6 of an hour) you need to put in 360kW for ten minutes.

    360kW at 350V is 1028A. As you are having to boost 240V to 350V, you will need (assuming 100% boost efficiency - also unrealistic) to pull 1350A from a 240V supply to achieve this.

    Doesn't anyone see the problem with this?

    1. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

      Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

      I can't fault those calculations, but is anyone actually claiming this charging rate at home? I presume anything charging at higher than a few kW would always have to be at a specialist charging station, probably at very high voltages (what's the highest voltage an EV can charge at?)

      1. cyberdemon Silver badge

        Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

        > what's the highest voltage an EV can charge at?

        Usually, the battery voltage. 400V DC chargers for a 400V pack, still would mean sending ~1kA up the charging cable. Would need an interesting new connector.

        They -could- put HV power converters inside the car to step down voltage from 2kV or so into the battery. The problem with that is the next "standard" voltage from 415V AC is 11kV AC, so they'd still need HV power electronics outside the car.

        It would be nice to have a 2kV AC standard.. Low enough to accommodate on a PCB, high enough to efficiently deliver a megawatt of power.

        But all this is moot if you can't get the megawatts to the charging station in the first place..

        1. Jonathan Richards 1

          Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

          > HV power electronics outside the car

          And it's going to be operated by the drivers of the cars, not skilled electrical engineers. I hate to think about amateurs messing about with really high-voltage high-power electrical connections in the sort of environments typically encountered in current ICE refuelling stations.

          1. cyberdemon Silver badge

            Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

            Yes indeed. Soot and road dirt can be surprisingly conductive when you get to kilovolts..

            Never mind "please put your car into car wash mode before washing", we'll also have "please wash your car and wait for it to dry before charging", "no charging in the rain" etc

          2. Pete 2 Silver badge

            Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

            > the sort of environments typically encountered in current ICE refuelling stations.

            Yes. I cannot be the only person feeling a little apprehensive about the prospect of manhandling a 100kW or more power source in a rainy garage forecourt. When it's 10 years old and looking a little ragged round the edges.

            1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

              Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

              Yet you wield a rubber hose delivering highly explosive petrol without even thinking about it. You can even squirt petrol when the nozzle isn't connected to the car.

            2. VicMortimer Silver badge

              Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

              Solved problem.

              CCS is designed to handle 500A at 1kv. Hyundai/KИ cars use 800V battery packs now. Current fast chargers can go up to 350kW.

              Rain is NOT a problem. High current/high voltage is not enabled until the car talks to the charger, which it can't do until after it's plugged in.

              Even a 120V AC EVSE won't activate until it establishes communication.

            3. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

              Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

              The ignorance on display here is staggering. Now we're getting contributions from people who know so much about electricity they don't even know about switches.

              Presumably the lights in your house stay on permanently.

            4. jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid Silver badge

              Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

              "I cannot be the only person feeling a little apprehensive about the prospect of manhandling a 100kW or more power source in a rainy garage forecourt. When it's 10 years old and looking a little ragged round the edges"

              Me too. I once had a job that involved operating and looking after about 200kW of amplifier system. Imagine a PA system but not exactly standard though as it was only 4 channel with 50kW per channel, and yes we did run it at full tilt most of the time. Each channel had its own transformer from the main power supply but all the actual amplification was done with switched mode amps. That was fun

              I'm just glad that there are better electrical engineers than me who are working all this stuff out, designing hopefully robust enough connectors etc. And as someone else here has pointed out, we've learnt to safely operate petrol pumps chucking out many megajoules per second of highly flammable stuff. I'm confident that safe high power charging can be done, somehow.

    2. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

      Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

      Of course we see the problem. It's that you're a bit hard of thinking and suffering from Dunning Kruger. You know p=IV and think it makes you an expert, but actually you know nothing about how power is delivered to chargers.

      1. may_i

        Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

        What a helpful comment!

        If you think there's some magic way "power is delivered to chargers" which doesn't require inch thick conductors and without the risk of frying the user, setting fire to the charging station etc, instead of being a twat, why don't you enlighten us with your wisdom by explaining exactly how this "power is delivered to chargers"?

        I'm all ears.

        1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

          Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

          Whut? We're talking about someone who doesn't even know what three-phase is, or how the UK electricity grid works, doing GCSE level analysis and getting it totally wrong as a result.

          Merely using cooking-variety three phase gives 400v, but DC fast chargers often make use of a local substation taking in 33kv or 11kv - local distribution voltages on the UK grid - and stepping it down to whatever the chargers can handle, which is often up to 1kv, currently, but with no real restrictions on future development.

          And obviously things like 'inch thick conductors' are involved, but that's not exactly a big conductor. Why do you think charging cables are so fat?

          Seriously, if you know nothing about the subject, don't Dunning Kruger it like you two are doing. Ask a question instead of pontificating and talking complete drivel.

        2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

          "If you think there's some magic way "power is delivered to chargers" which doesn't require inch thick conductors and without the risk of frying the user, setting fire to the charging station etc, instead of being a twat, why don't you enlighten us with your wisdom by explaining exactly how this "power is delivered to chargers"?"

          USB-D?

          1. MrReynolds2U

            Re: So much battery and charging bullshit

            Lightening connector (outside the EU)

            Doc Brown version, not Apple

  11. Tubz Silver badge

    Great news and finally progress, now how about cutting the stupid prices in half for the family run about, to make the EV's actually affordable and a sensible choice for car buyers and finally we can ditch petroleum engines, don't the manufacturers see the potential for mass sales and profits, rather than small sales and even smaller profits? It's not rocket science, although save SMRs powered vehicles is what we need !

    1. cyberdemon Silver badge

      It's high time we had Cold Fusion powered EVs! I saw one once, and it could even time travel, so where is it?

      Must have gone back to the future...

  12. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

    745 mile range means a pack size of approximately 208kW/h; about twice the size of currently available batteries.

    Charging a pack this size in 10 minutes means charging consistently at more than a MW.

    (1) I'd like to see the infrastructure & charging points that could support this, and

    (2) I'd like to see the cables they give you with the car; they probably weigh more than the car.

    1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

      FFS, another Dunning Kruger victim. It's called the megawatt charging system. You can read all about it if you like, rather than expressing skepticism about something that exists. Megawatt supplies (and even far more) are common enough in UK industry. None of this is hard to find out, if you stop watching far right conspiracy nuts on facetube telling you nonsense about electric cars being a plot by (((you know who))) and do some basic googling instead.

      1. nintendoeats Silver badge

        Are there as many megawatt power supplies in the UK as there are gas pumps?

        1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

          There are roughly as many petrol stations in the UK as there are megawatts of power generating capacity, and then there are the international connections too. But don't let facts get in the way of believing alt-right videos you've seen on Telegram.

          1. nintendoeats Silver badge

            ...So if you took the entire power generting capacity of the UK, earmarked it for this endeavour, rewired the infrastructure so that it was concentrated at gas stations, you could reach convenience parity with petrol?...

            1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

              No, that's not how maths works. Neither petrol stations nor fast chargers are in use 100% of the time. Jesus, it's no surprise you lot all believe this crazy shit: you are stupider than cheese. And not even blue cheese.

              1. nintendoeats Silver badge

                I think you may be confusing the claim "there are practical difficulties with this plan which will be expensive, time-consiming and politically challenging to resolve" with the claim "this is literally impossible".

  13. xyz Silver badge

    I still fancy the flow battery idea...

    2 tanks, 2 pumps, one membrane, drive into the BP leccy station, purge the tanks, fill up with freshly charged water and go.

    Existing infrastructure, existing tax regime, no cabling to nick, no battery to explode etc etc.

    1. cyberdemon Silver badge

      Re: I still fancy the flow battery idea...

      That might be a good idea for the charging station itself (i.e. to buffer energy from the grid/solar), but not so much for the cars. Flow batteries tend to be VERY heavy (i.e. low gravimetric energy density).

      Vanadium Redox Flow Batteries are promising, but they have an energy density of around 20Wh/kg (10 times heavier than Lithium Iron Phosphate) but they get slightly better as they get bigger, because you can increase the tank size as much as you like.

  14. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

    version 1.0?

    I get the impression that Samsung is always willing to sell products that aren't ready for market. Their product support has all the best shielding tactics to make sure that it's your fault, it's operating normally, or there's a known problem that will be fixed for free in the future (never).

    I've been to stores where the staff said they don't want to sell Samsung products because customers come back furious.

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: version 1.0?

      This is still in the research stage.

      The full specs in the press release will probably never be achieved - some of them are things consumers don't actually want (but possibly think they do)

      My ICE car has a "book range" of 699 miles - 1200km.

      I've used that (nominal) range exactly twice - taking it down to 50 miles indicated range.

      In both cases, if I could have filled up in the hotel car park over the weekend then I'd have used half that.

      If I could slowly fill up at home and at my destination, 350 miles would likely be plenty. Add access to fast chargers on major roads and it works even for the less than once a year trips.

      That said, I doubt that my local substation can actually cope with a slow-charging EV in half the drives, or hotels with half their carpark charging at 1kW.

      Infrastructure is, and has always been, the issue.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    1974 Ford

    Apart from the radio, no electronics.

    No sensors, cameras, airbags, connectivity or gadgetry.

    Rust maybe.

    Good for another 250,000 kms.

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