NASA needs new ideas and tech to get Mars Sample Return mission off the ground

NASA still wants to proceed with its Mars Sample Return (MSR) mission but needs its cost to drop – so it's seeking help from the commercial space sector. MSR, which would see NASA collect a series of Martian rock samples for return to Earth, has struggled since its inception. A report issued by a NASA Independent Review Board …

[STOP_FORTH]

Sensible suggestion

Get the guys from Iron Sky to go to Mars.

They have an easier gravity well and superior technology.

Don't forget that they designed the first rocket to put an American into orbit. (The Yankee ones were only good enough for short hops.)

They followed up with the rockets for Gemini and Apollo.

Credit where credit's due.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Sensible suggestion

I don't known what Iron Sky you are talking about, but I know the movie :)

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

Re: Sensible suggestion

I think that's the joke

[SnailFerrous]

Priorities. Decision time.

Since the time scale of the sample return mission is starting to look very similar to a mission to send people to Mars, it is time for a decision. Sample Return is very very expensive. Humans on Mars is very very very very expensive. Do one, or the other well, or do both badly, possibly resulting in a failure to do either. The only sure thing on cost and time is that they will get higher and longer respectively for both missions.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Priorities. Decision time.

Part of the problem with sample return is that it's been re-scoped at least twice. There was a plan to build "fetch" rovers to collect the samples, the plan was then modified a few years later to use helicopters. If they had stuck with the original plan, the fetch rovers *could* have been being manufactured by now. e.g. at one point, the plan was for the "fetch" rovers to use the same radio design as the ESA EXOMars rover, meaning there was no design work to do. Re-use of already designed parts could really keep the mission cost down, and speed up the launch date.

[Flocke Kroes]

Re: The other rescopes

One of the early plans was a ~100kg rocket to go from Mars surface to low Mars orbit (LMO) then transfer the samples to a vehicle able to get them back to Earth.

That plan got killed because people decided the transfer in orbit was too difficult.

The revised plan required landing all the kit required for LMO->Earth on Mars with a big rocket to lift it back to LMO.

That plan did not last long because it is too big fo parachutes + hovering sky crane.

Next up, do not land the return propellant but manufacture it out of CO2 and ice.

Another plan is to make some dinky pump fed hypergolic propellant rockets that have better thrust to weight ratio than pressure fed hypergolics.

Every one of these plans requires making kit that has no other purpose than to return a few hundred grams of samples to Earth. It would be like flags and foot prints on the Moon then cancel for 50 years because it is too expensive. I would go for a five year delay on Mars sample return studies, work on making access to space cheaper then look at what can be done with kit available off the shelf at that time. There will be plenty of flag waving opportunities with Artemis, plenty of new capabilities. The interest generated could be enough to fund MSR and get it ready to go before people get thoroughly bored of yet another Moon mission.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: The other rescopes

Or, look at how long it took for SpaceX to go from almost bankrupt to routinely launching and landing Flacon 9's and Heavies and project on from what Starship may do this year and where they may be in 15 years time. It might well be a spectacular failure, but I'd bet on Starship succeeding over that time. Even if Starship is never able to land and take off again from Mars, I'm fairly confident it will be able to deliver a Mars lander that could take off again, whether by taking fuel down with it or by generating fuel on the surface.

Musk may be an arse, but SpaceX has been delivering, despite him.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Priorities. Decision time.

Sample return is much cheaper than putting humans on Mars. There is no need for months or years of food supplies, equipment for air and water recycling. Radiation shielding can (mostly) be done away with in favour of using radiation hardened electronics. And, at the end, the mission will be to return a mass to earth measured in kilograms, rather than potentially tonnes when you include all the things required to get a squishy human from Mars surface to orbit safely. And don't forget the mass budget for fuel to bring the spacecraft earthwards. The heavier the return craft, the more fuel you will need to transfer from a martian orbit to an earth orbit.

[Neil Barnes]

Re: Priorities. Decision time.

But on the other hand, humans find it remarkably easy to (a) select 'interesting' looking rocks and (b) pick them up and stow them away in a locker, even if the lid won't shut.

[vtcodger]

Re: Priorities. Decision time.

"Sample return is much cheaper than putting humans on Mars."

Indeed. And if Mars Sample return is really a 15 year (or more) effort, I'd suggest that very likely means that the costs/timeline for humans on Mars is wildly optimistic At least if we're planning a round trip for said humans.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Re: Priorities. Decision time.

The problem is that Congress has essentially tasked NASA to return Martian samples before China does. The deadline of 2040 is completely artificial since the samples will still be there hundreds of years from now. And the excuse that NASA wants the samples before then because they're planning a human mission is the 2040's is a kludge. Samples aren't needed for a Mars mission. There are currently no plans for a manned human mission to Mars and I doubt there ever will be if Starship doesn't pan out the way it's supposed to.

We're seeing Congress insisting that whatever China does NASA needs to do it first. The New Space Race is heating up. As a space buff I'm enthralled by it and am deeply grateful the Chinese came along. Finally the U.S. is getting off its lazy ass and is seriously exploring space again. Too bad it's for the wrong reasons.

[Flocke Kroes]

Re: Priorities. Decision time.

China is the scare word. The actual enemy is SpaceX. How is old space going to get the bulk of that $5B-$11B if a Starship lands on Mars before the contracts are signed?

[Anonymous Coward]

primary Don't use anything musk related

Avoid musk shit at all costs, he just lies constantly.. for ref see latest "common sense skeptic" vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KRwgwacx1Y

but he would support using nazi's? so that's a thing

[vtcodger]

Re: primary Don't use anything musk related

Ehrrr. ... No ...

I'm no fan of Elon Musk. But many of Elon's ideas are pretty good. The problem is that many are dreadful. And Elon and his supporters appear to have few or no filters to discriminate between good(The Tesla charging network), questionable (the Cybermonstrosity), and bloody awful (Full-Self-Driving). So, by all means, ask Elon. But filter the results because he can't/won't.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: primary Don't use anything musk related

"but he would support using nazi's? so that's a thing"

Umm...yeah, it is. Both The USA and USSR kickstarted their Space Race with Nazi rocket scientists.

[Catkin]

Re: primary Don't use anything musk related

America was very lucky that they got the best rocket Nazis. The Soviets had more rocket Nazis in raw numbers.

[Dave 126]

Re: primary Don't use anything musk related

> Avoid musk shit at all costs, he just lies constantly

Why is trust relevant if you have data?

[Flocke Kroes]

Re: primary Don't use anything musk related

Beggers / choosers. Current choices:

*) RocketLab Electron: far too small

*) ULA Vulcan: crippled by slow engine supplier

*) SLS: $4B per launch, every other year at best.

*) Blue Origin New Glenn: no rocket and worse engine trouble than Vulcan

*) All other new space: no operational rockets and medium lift at best

*) SpaceX: Cheapest and most reliable in the world. Dreadful CEO but he is busy with the social media site currently known as Twitter. All decisions will be made by very skilled employees.

[Spherical Cow]

Re: primary Don't use anything musk related

RocketLab is designing a rocket to go to Venus which is in the other direction, so to get to Mars they'd have to make the rocket fly backwards.

[FuzzyTheBear]

So they got samples ..

What i don't understand is why take samples if they didn't have a return mechanism in place ? o.O ?

I am confused ..

[Pascal Monett]

Re: So they got samples ..

You do realize we're talking rocket science here ? Things that have never yet been tried ?

Step by step, grasshopper. That is how we advance.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Chinese architecture

I've already stated that the Chinese architecture which they used for their Lunar Sample Return mission and are planning to use for their Mars Sample Return mission is much simpler and therefore more likely to work at less cost. NASA's MSR is unnecessarily convoluted and complex, with multiple single points of failure that can ruin the entire mission. It also depends on European contribution despite the fact that ESA has never successfully landed anything on Mars.

My suggestion would be to copy the Chinese MSR architecture verbatim.

It's obvious Musk will at some point suggest using Starship. But that would be tasking SpaceX with too much since the company is already involved with the manned Lunar landings.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Chinese architecture

"It's obvious Musk will at some point suggest using Starship. But that would be tasking SpaceX with too much since the company is already involved with the manned Lunar landings."

Much of what i needed and being developed for the Moon landing and the SpaceX side of things is also what will be needed for SpaceX to go to Mars, especially the orbital tankers and refuelling technology. And anyway, SpaceX (or at least Musk) want's to go to Mars anyway, so getting NASA funding to assist with that is exactly what they want.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Re: Chinese architecture

There are substantial differences also. For one Starship would need to land on Mars, a planet with a thin atmosphere and a much larger gravity pull compared to the Moon. Secondly Starship would need to be refueled in order to take off again. Or it could carry with it a small rocket but they'd need to get it to the surface first. All these issues would need to be solved, which would take a lot of engineering talent, time and money.

Like I said: Congress wants those samples back before the Chinese, so the mission would need to occur around the 2030 time-frame. I doubt that would be feasible with Starship, considering SpaceX would also be involved with a manned Moon landing around the same time.

[Flocke Kroes]

Re: Walk and Chew gum

SpaceX are currently working on landing a Starship on the Moon and landing a different configuration on Earth. Landing on Mars is a mixture of the two: Earth heat shield and flip up, Moon landing legs.

SpaceX's current limit is how fast they can get launch licences.

[Catkin]

Re: Walk and Chew gum

Hopefully, the Martian authorities are more forgiving, or they'll be stuck on the surface.

[Zolko]

Re: Walk and Chew gum

SpaceX's current limit is how fast they can get launch licences

I thought that SpaceX's problems rotate around 3 failed launches with associated RUD. I'm relieved to know that it's only some paperwork.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Walk and Chew gum

Not really. If you look at the actual published flight objectives as opposed to what the press and media say, you'll find they fully expected failures. Just as they had with Falcon and the many attempted but RUD "landings". Most of the "failures" reported are what in crowdfunding terms would be "stretch objectives". They don't do "must succeed first time" style of development. You can argue that this may or may not be a better way of doing it, but it seems to be working for them. Having said that, look at the US early rocket development. They had way more fails than successes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Walk and Chew gum

if you look at what they said they would be doing by now, they failed at everything except blowing shit up, compared to 60's NASA this is amateur hour comedy shit.

All they have is a rocket that can get 0 tons payload to near orbit, or did no fucker notice the last failure was fucking empty and still didn't reach orbit at all.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Walk and Chew gum

You seem to be confusing what Musk says with what the SpaceX flight plans and expectations say. Listen to the grown-ups, not the child.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Walk and Chew gum

what the plans that said they would already have test flown it round the moon, that got them the contract from nasa, that bunch of lying shit?

musktwat fans are delusional

[Torben Mogensen]

Assemble in orbit

One way to reduce cost is to ship parts to ISS (over multiple missions) and assemble the space ship there. You don't need fancy automatic unfolding of solar panels etc, this can be done by astronauts in space.

[Dave 126]

Re: Assemble in orbit

The hinge is a mature technology. A system centered around a heavy meat bag juggling wrenches in low G whilst wearing a complex life support suit is a stack of less mature technologies.

[Flocke Kroes]

Re: Assemble in orbit

Assemble in Earth orbit gets you a big spaceship in Earth orbit. At present there is no tried and tested method of landing a big spaceship on Mars. On top of that, assembly workers on Earth are much cheaper than ISS astronauts.

[Zolko]

Re: Assemble in orbit

@Torben Mogensen : I don't know why you were downvoted for that sensible suggestion. I'd add another suggestion: attach to the ISS an inflatable hangar where all the pieces can be safely assembled without the astronauts risking to lose grip.

I think that the biggest problem will be the refueling of spaceships with cryogenic fluids, and such a hangar wouldn't help there.

[Anonymous Coward]

Space people

All the public (who after all are paying for this and suffering diminished existences) want is to see are things on the tv. Some nasa bozo holding a tiny mars pebble is still doing it on the TV.

We need a sort of vehicle that seperates in mars orbit and peppers the surface with 100s of gopro style 360 cameras. Each should have have enough power to cap Hi Res from its drop zone and transmit it back to the orbiter.

The orbiter with its hi power transmitter can send it all back to earth.

Stop pandering to the vanity of these individuals that think its worth trillions just to be standing in the photo of the same backdrops the cameras could take.

Nasa and the west cant help itself trapped in the doom cycle of the 1969 moon landing images.

Techology already exists to place a man in every snap.

Space people. Bunch of wankers lol.

[Andy The Hat]

Skeptical from the start ...

Two possibilities for a mission (excluding one involving potatoes):

1) send a ship with a rover which trundles around and takes samples which it drops on the floor as it goes. Send a second mission with a rover that trundles around searching for, collecting and stowing these samples, returns full driven journey to a launch vehicle ... Or

2) send a mission which trundles around and collects samples. Send a second mission to collect the sample container (human or machine) from wherever the rover finished up, return via a launch vehicle.

It always seemed to me that the requirement to land and operate a second autonomous collector rover immediately increased costs and complexity massively for no good reason.

[Flocke Kroes]

Re: Skeptical from the start ...

Landing accuracy is currently poor. Something has to get the samples from where the ascent vehicle is wanted to where it actually lands.

[Jon 37]

Re: Skeptical from the start ...

If the samples are on the rover that collected them, it could drive to the ascent vehicle.

[Gary Stewart]

Let Elon do it

I say we just wait a few years and then pay Elon to pick the samples up while he is driving his Mars Edition Cybertruck around on Mars. I'm sure there would be enough room for them to return to Earth on a inbound flight of the Starship.

[amanfromMars 1]

Hard to believe maybe, but true nonetheless.

Have you considered that the West will have lost every possible and available advantage to the East whenever it is revealed or discovered that Orientals have accepted proferred engagement and exercise of novel alien proprietary intellectual property to transform and repurpose planet Earth rather than being led to believe new worlds further afield are the way forward to proceed with future knowledge and greater fundamental understanding shared ....... and all because the West denied and dismissed and did not believe the admittedly unexpected offer delivering the possibilities to be valid and real.

And thus was future leadership and ownership of previously thought unbelievable wealth and prosperity effortlessly secured and transferred to SMARTR IntelAIgent Sources of Sublime Force and Extra Territorial Power entertained and empowered by that which is embedded and natural and growing in the Grandest of Exotic and Erotic and Esoteric Oriental Minds.

[Russell Chapman Esq.]

Slightly tongue in cheek but who knows.

Mars Orbiter drops a large enough ordnance onto Martian surface. Resulting blast and low gravity puts Martian debris into a low orbit for long enough to be collected from orbit. No need to land on the surface.

[EricB123]

Maybe Another Superpower could help America Out?

Well, America used the Russians to ferry astronauts to and fro from the ISS, Would it be that much stranger to ask the Chinese to ferry some rocks from Mars back to Earth?

Just saying. I'll be disappointed if I see less than 50 down votes on this post.

[Spherical Cow]

Re: Maybe Another Superpower could help America Out?

*fewer

[Anonymous Coward]

Send more robots!

Send humanoid and spider bots this time.

that way they can fix eachother and other stuff.

Then when the war breaks out, we can watch the planet solely inhabited by robots on tv, to see where our future is going here.

Imagin, earth breaks out in war, life is wiped out. 5 million years later humans are back, go to mars, and find remains of a robot war. Religions would flip out lol

[Bamba_RFW]

Why not land a solar powered linear accelerator to sent the sample containers into mars orbit.

That's what the "Countdown" comic showed in the 70's ( for the exploitation of lunar resources )