back to article Open source versus Microsoft: The new rebellion begins

Twice it was tried, twice it failed. In Germany, Munich and Lower Saxony both decided to switch to open source for official IT. Both projects, to some extent or another*, returned to Microsoft. Now the state of Schleswig-Holstein is hoping for third time lucky. It's been planning the same thing for three years, and now it's …

  1. Khaptain Silver badge

    I wish them luck

    Now which browser/search engine will they be allowing their employees to use ? I imagine that more personal details leak through the browser/search engine rather than through the OS.

    We all know that MS systems phone home but does anyone know with exactitude which information is being relayed ? Obviously some licence information and probably software installation but what else ?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I wish them luck

      Not quite what you asked, but Windows systems, Defender, Outlook/Office, Edge, etc logs (and certainly in the case of corporate cloud connected systems; uploads) EVERYTHING.

      Ask anyone who works in corporate IT and has access to log analytics, security.microsoft.com, Purview or Sentinel.

      We (IT) know your IP address. Logged in use account. User profile. List of applications. Lists of all your files. Who you last emailed (or who you emailed at a specific time/date). The contents of that email. The contents of the word document you sent. A complete list of websites you visited (including any in private browser mode). A list of your shadow IT accounts, including which user account you logged into them with and which documents you uploaded. What time you logged in and what time you logged off. Which applications you used. Which versions of those applications you used, with a compete list of vulnerabilities for that version (including CVEs). A list of other accounts on your system. The contents of your OneDrive.

      If you ever logged in to your Microsoft account with your phone I can tell you the make and model of your phone, which software version you're using (and therefore any vulnerabilities you might have), your IP address, the SSID you connected to, your geolocation (and also the geolocation of any other phones that logged in nearby - so if you're banging someone else in the company in a hotel every weekend - your IT department know).

      It's probably safe to assume that the consumer versions of Windows uploads a significant amount of all this too. To use one example of many... it's not beyond the realms of possibility to imagine that when a bunch of home users suddenly get infected with X from email Y that this information is then fed into Systems to update Exchange 365/Defender/Microsoft Security to be resold as a premium threat intelligence service to business users (there are myriad different licensing levels just for Defender in enterprise computing). We know 100% that this is possible, so the only question is; do we consider that Microsoft would do it?

      Sleep tight.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I wish them luck

        Oh, and all this information is kept and is available FOREVER. Whether deleted or not. That's the reality of cloud computing.

      2. Khaptain Silver badge

        Re: I wish them luck

        Yes, I know most of the that, we use InTunes so as you can imagine we can a lot of what it held.

        But how useful is that information compared to what your Google, FB etc are capable of extracting.. Google and FB are basically 24hour/365 day surveillance platforms.

      3. heyrick Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: I wish them luck

        "so if you're banging someone else in the company in a hotel every weekend - your IT department know"

        Demonstrate the veracity of that, and suddenly manglement will be very interested in the potential benefits of open source...

      4. 43300 Silver badge

        Re: I wish them luck

        "We (IT) know your IP address. Logged in use account. User profile. List of applications. Lists of all your files. Who you last emailed (or who you emailed at a specific time/date). The contents of that email. The contents of the word document you sent. A complete list of websites you visited (including any in private browser mode). A list of your shadow IT accounts, including which user account you logged into them with and which documents you uploaded. What time you logged in and what time you logged off. Which applications you used. Which versions of those applications you used, with a compete list of vulnerabilities for that version (including CVEs). A list of other accounts on your system. The contents of your OneDrive."

        There is an element of security through obscurity here, at least from employers. There is so much data generated in the likes of Purview that unless there is cause to look at the actions of a particular employee, or monitor for something specific, much is going to go below the radar.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: I wish them luck

          Yes, the data looks like 20 tonnes of sand, each detail being a grain.

          The difference is that the filter to sort out all grains that were ground down from the same rock is a lot quicker.

        2. Pu02

          Re: I wish them luck

          Once the data is in the lake, its there for all time.

          Using it does not require complex sifting through enormous amounts of cruft. They just write a query or three, or three million. And/or employ the latest AI.

          Then act on anything that presents high enough relative risk.

          The only way to stay under the radar is to make sure what you do does not present an impact, or a risk they might want to act on.

          ... Ever. So no, it is not good odds!

          1. 43300 Silver badge

            Re: I wish them luck

            "Once the data is in the lake, its there for all time."

            A lot of the logging data within Microsoft cloudy systems is only available for a month. Which isn't to say it's completely deleted after that (I don't know ether way), but it's no longer available to the customers' admins (I don't know whether it's still available to Micosoft).

            1. druck Silver badge

              Re: I wish them luck

              Of course it is.

        3. TimTheEngineer

          Re: I wish them luck

          If one were suspicious/cynical enough one might contemplate that some massive cluster of systems with some clever software, perhaps some sort of artificial intelligence like tools would enable the interrogation and investigation of all that information a little more practical.

          Of course, that's probably just science fiction, eh ?

          1. tracker1

            Re: I wish them luck

            The Snowden leaks demonstrated that it's already possibly to meaningfully utilize the enormous amount of data being collected. I used to think it was way too much to be useful before that. I can only assume the technology has improved dramatically since.

          2. HelpfulJohn

            Re: I wish them luck

            "... some massive cluster of systems with some clever software ..."

            That is essentially the main thread of five years worth of a TV serial called "Person Of Interest".

            Spoiler: an artificial super-intelligence is built. She tries to do good things. She uses human agents as "fingers".

            More spoiler: it all goes massively wrong at the mid-point which provides for good story-arcs.

            Another spoiler: Microsoft, Apple, Google and FB-X in the "POI" world seem to be totally oblivious to the obvious potential of the A.S.I. critter. I guess that's what makes it Fantasy, not hard SF.

            Nothing like "The Machine" is possible in the real world. We all know this. :)

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I wish them luck

          For context, while it is possible to get this level of information, it is based on the options that the customer purchases usually for compliance and regulatory purposes.

          Running built-in Microsoft security products and browsers do not provide this level of information. If you're not paying for the storage of security information and products to populate the information (much like if you used third party products), this monitoring isn't available.

        5. jmch Silver badge
          Black Helicopters

          Re: I wish them luck

          "...unless there is cause to look at the actions of a particular employee, or monitor for something specific, much is going to go below the radar."

          You think they're going to let all that "AI" data mining power go to waste?

        6. Alan Spang

          Re: I wish them luck

          "There is an element of security through obscurity here, at least from employers. There is so much data generated in the likes of Purview that unless there is cause to look at the actions of a particular employee, or monitor for something specific, much is going to go below the radar."

          Don't worry, AI will resolve that in a jiffy!

          1. tracker1

            Re: I wish them luck

            If you work in a Fortune 100 company, your HR is likely already using a service to follow you and every other employee far more closely than you may realize it be comfortable with.

            You might genuinely be surprised. This practice is only growing.

        7. Grogan Silver badge

          Re: I wish them luck

          That's right, just like the countless hours of surveillance recordings stored, in a lot of places you go nowadays. Most of the time it's needle-in-haystack, but when they DO need to pull data there are tools to find it quickly. You can instantly jump to a time interval in a digital file, for the obvious example. There are also tools to find frames. The problem is that when they do... smile, you're on candid camera. I resent it and have given the finger to the little eye in the instant banking machines, just in case someone reviews the footage, for example. When I know I'm being filmed (or reminded by seeing a camera) I'll do something, perhaps sneer at the camera. Want a picture of my big white hairy ass too? I really don't have cause to care about cameras, it's the principle of the matter. I don't like a record of my movements for someone to take an interest in.

          With databases of stored statistics there are endless queries that can be done to pinpoint that needle in the haystack instantly. Maybe you'll come up in some query for reasons unrelated to the search and now someone keen to stretch the criteria for investigation to justify the existence of themselves and their toys, is reminded that you exist.

      5. jm2076

        Re: I wish them luck

        The reality is this is true of every ecosystem be it MS, Apple, Google, whoever, yet you only see this level of schizophrenic screeching when it's MS, or "M$" as you degenerate losers like to write it. Maybe go outside and get a life and disconnect. That would be the one true way to stop yourself from putting all your data out there.

        1. klh

          Re: I wish them luck

          Or, you know, use Open Source which was the topic of the article? Not a byte I don't recognize leaves my PCs and that's mostly out of the box for most cases.

          If there is no incentive, the software doesn't spy on you.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I wish them luck

          Are you one of the OP's few downvoters?

        3. tracker1

          Re: I wish them luck

          Only if you and everyone with you leaves their phone behind and doesn't have a modern car.

      6. hoola Silver badge

        Re: I wish them luck

        However this is not just Microsoft.

        Add Google, Apple and many other large tech corporations to that list when it comes to either uploading data as part of operational metrics or scraping them from the OS when the browser or application is used.

        Now add in all the security products that also phone home with similar data and it is very difficult to avoid.

        Just because something is Open Source does not mean that security products are not required.

        Large organisations need reliable support & SLAs and that is usually not available with Open Source unless you are paying a third party to provide it. However much we dislike companies like Microsoft, Oracle, VMware (Broadcom) SAP they exist because of contracts.

        That those contracts are sometimes not worth the paper they are written on is another matter altogether but legal and finance departments like contracts.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I wish them luck

          Compliance is also a problem in itself. No one really cares as long as some contract says it's not your fault and that is how work is done. Get Compliance right and if some problem appears not your fault, it goes up one step and the next company does the same.

          Ultimately you have some kind of security breach and it's no one's fault.

          I have this very often with clients. I tell them this and that would be better security wise then they ask me if what they have ticks all the Compliance boxes for insurance,..., and that should be done no thinking involved.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: I wish them luck

            It sounds as if the insurance companies need to collect better data than inadequate box-ticks.

            1. 43300 Silver badge

              Re: I wish them luck

              The questions so often seem to be very dumbed-down and sufficiently vague that it can be difficult to determine whether certain systems are or are not compliant. Which might be intentional, of course...

        2. 43300 Silver badge

          Re: I wish them luck

          "Just because something is Open Source does not mean that security products are not required."

          Indeed. If an employer, government, or whoever wants to spy on you then they are going to do it - there are many ways, open source or not. They can monitor network traffic / internet traffic, and so on. Logging the traffic on the main firewall at a site is one of the most obvious of all techniques.

          The main limit is how much effort they think is worth putting in. Sure, they'll probably be watching for any of the obvious categories of questionable internet access (and have filters to block a lot of them), but beyond that the effort is likely to be limited unless they have a specific cause for doing so.

          I do agree that AI is a threat here, as it is likely to significantly increase the level of surveilance analysis - just because they can do it with a lot less effort than previously.

      7. Stuporous User

        Re: I wish them luck

        We "prey" have been tagged, ragged, boxed, and data offered for sale so they can continue their trillion dollar enterprises before someone comes along and outperforms them in some safer, more diligent way! I so appreciate what they started in the 70's-80's until I realized they only care about exploitations and now even the government is in on the same objectives, in most countries. They teach one another, as they've learned from explorations into the space beyond Earth, and higher order predators.

        I vote for Open Source! MS is Super Buggy, constantly getting hacked, and considers users "$ Prey".

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: I wish them luck

      The biggest concern of all is the server. If they're sending data to the server who needs the clients or browser to phone home?

      I think in their position I'd be starting with the NextCloud server and a local MSP, even before moving to LibreOffice.

    3. Steve Button Silver badge

      Re: I wish them luck

      If it was myself doing this massive change, I think I would just try to get on with it quietly without making any fuss for a couple of years, and then announce it to the press and the world (AFTER IT WAS WORKING OK). That way it would give MS less time to get into gear to get up to all the tricks that they inevitably will.

      If I was Microsoft, considering what's at stake here, I'd probably speak to a company / partner that's part of the "inner circle" (someone that gets a lot of money from MS) and get them to make an offer-that-you-cant-refuse to some of the key players on this project, so that they get moved onto more interesting things. You'd have to be a bit subtle about it, but I'm sure it could be done. And then the whole thing might just fizzle out.

      Or have I been watching too much "Better Call Saul" and "Breaking Bad" and imagine that people are clever enough to work the system like that?

      1. Germanitguy

        Re: I wish them luck

        This is what happened in Munich some years ago.

        I read an interview of the major and he ended up in a van talking to Bill gates...

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: I wish them luck

        Fait accompli is a powerful technique.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I wish them luck

      "We all know that MS systems phone home but does anyone know with exactitude which information is being relayed ? Obviously some licence information and probably software installation but what else ?"

      Well, when I was with US CENTCOM, the US government certainly knew. I suspect there's a good reason that the government runs its own licensing servers, rather than relying exclusively upon Microsoft's Imperial servers.

      And their own patch servers for the US and Microsoft patches.

      And retains licenses with various open source companies that are large enough to handle government support contracts fairly quickly...

      It's not as if it's difficult in an enterprise network to ascertain what traffic is going out and coming into a test group, as one can isolate all traffic through sniffers and log every iota of traffic, man in the middle to one's heart content and a lot more and with deep enough pockets, testing every major OS and software package around. Which is precisely what DISA and the NSA do.

      But, you can totally, entirely trust Microsoft and the Post Office and Fujitsu and the NSA...

      While happily believing in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and Brexit.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: I wish them luck

        It's a long time since I read the then Microsoft terms. What struck me was that there was nothing in there stating what they wouldn't take. If you weren't thinking in that way it would look like "Nothing to see here, carry on".

  2. nematoad Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Really?

    Microsoft's focus on moving people to Office 365 and upping hardware specs for Windows 11 for no good reason...

    I disagree.

    There is a very good reason for all of MS's shenanigans. It's called the bottom line.

    If MS can squeeze more revenue out of its customers even if the changes mean inconvenience, cost and disruption to the customer; if it increases profits then as far as MS is concerned it's job done.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Really?

      No good reason from the users' PoV.

      1. m4r35n357 Silver badge

        Re: Really?

        At this point any remaining suckers deserve what they get 100%.

        Go M$!!!

      2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: Really?

        Since when did the users matter?

    2. JohnSheeran

      Re: Really?

      It's not just M$'s bottom line we're talking about here. This is just general economics and evolution at play. If the demands of hardware don't increase then there is no reason to build bigger/better. If people don't have a need to upgrade then we're talking about stretching out the lifecycle of this stuff and that harms everyone's bottom line.

      It all sucks.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Really?

        The forced upgrades harm the customers' bottom lines.

        1. JohnSheeran
          Meh

          Re: Really?

          Agreed but since when have these companies cared about my/your bottom line?

          1. parrot

            Re: Really?

            Excuse me, the term is “cleftal horizon”.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Really?

          The forced upgrades harm the customers' bottoms.

  3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "Microsoft also has cloud products that it says provide sovereign data for customer"

    It says they do. Subject, of course, to any demands on Microsoft by US legislation such as the CLOUD Act. How does it claim to get round that?

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      It can't. There is no way for Microsoft, Amazon, or Google to get round it.

      1. I could be a dog really Silver badge

        As demonstrated by the FBI vs MS case regarding data held in Ireland. C.b.a. to look up a link right now, but TL;DR : FBI wanted some data on a person of interest, it included emails in an account hosted on servers in Ireland, MS refused, citing that it was outside of US jurisdiction, US passed the CLOUD Act, the very next day MS in the USA handed over information held on a server in Ireland.

        That pretty well nukes any claim to be able to keep your EU data safe within EU borders, and IMO it makes it illegal in the EU to use MS's 365 service because even the name and email address of your contacts is personal data and therefore it's not lawful to export it outside of the EU without each person's consent. In practice, you can't really get someone's consent before emailing them (send them an email asking - oh no, that's just exposed their name and address), and given MS's previous actions you cannot take any of their assurances at face value. I could see that being an "interesting" case for someone with the ability and desire to push it.

        1. Twilight

          Email was always the one part of EU privacy laws that baffled me. Just emailing someone could potentially be considered exposure but an email address has no purpose unless it is used/exposed.

      2. GloriousVictoryForThePeople

        >It can't. There is no way for Microsoft, Amazon, or Google to get round it.

        Actually it is far from insoluble.

        They set up a local subsidiary, with local-ish systems.

        In any and all roles with data access or authority to order data access, they can only employ single citizenship locals.

        The employment contract explicitly specifies that they must ignore all orders from the non approved zone.

        Now the NSA might be able to engineer around that, but it stops the day to day US courts ordering Irish data to be handed over by a sysop in Redmond

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          They set up a local subsidiary, with local-ish systems.

          The CLOUD act was specifically set up to get data from non-US subsidiaries of US-based companies.

          1. vekkq

            kinda what I thought. As long as MS owns the company, its subject to US law.

            1. MMlvx

              Reminds me of the supposed reason TikTok is a supposedly a security threat (because they are subject to the demands of the CCP).

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            What might have worked in simpler times would have been a franchise arrangement but these days there would be the risk of an "upgrade" that could do a bit of rummaging without involving the franchise. I suppose you could also check the source of all the upgrades....Oh, you can't; it's all closed source.

          3. I could be a dog really Silver badge

            Yes, that's what the CLOUD act was designed to do. But done right (as described), the US parent company will be powerless to compel release of the information - they could "demand" the information be handed over, but the local staff would simply refuse as "to do so would be illegal".

  4. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Happy

    Fingers crossed

    If this succeeds MS will go down the pan - at least in Germany.

    1. m4r35n357 Silver badge

      Re: Fingers crossed

      Not so fast, look up what happened last time(s).

      1. Will Godfrey Silver badge

        Re: Fingers crossed

        I know what happened last time. I said IF this succeeds. Also I'm aware that Munich is also watching this very carefully - as is a friend of mine who lives in Munich, and keeps me informed about various IT stuff.

        1. Cloudy Day

          Re: Fingers crossed

          But it won’t succeed. As much as I dislike Microsoft, I can tell you right now that this project will fail. Mainly because the council will have numerous third party packages that have integration dependencies on Office. This will be coupled with the majority of users hating having to learn a new Office package UI, plus the loss of specific and relied upon functionality within tools like Teams.

          MSFT will just fire the account manager that ‘lost’ the account and wait three years for the customer to return, tail between their legs. Office is a monopoly business. I wish it weren’t.

      2. navarac Silver badge

        Re: Fingers crossed

        "Last time", Munich did it for cost reasons. This time Schleswig-Holstein is doing it for data protection/data security reasons in light of EU legislation. Greatly different. I don't think MSFT can coerce (bribe?) their way through this.

        1. alain williams Silver badge

          Re: Fingers crossed

          I don't think MSFT can coerce (bribe?) their way through this.

          I wish that I had your apparent faith in the integrity of local politicians.

        2. Lars
          Linux

          Re: Fingers crossed

          @navarac

          So very true. It's like asking people to have their say when we, the company, suggest we switch to a ceaper company car to save some money for the company.

          But so many things are different now.

          Ballmer was jumpping around then kicking chairs and dreaming of the world dominating MS cellphone.

          Anything Linux has matured greatly since then, android did not even exist then.

          They can do it I am sure but it will take time and determination.

          I don't really think we get much information of what goes on regarding the use of Linux in the rest of the world here.

          I very much like Linux "department" here though.

      3. Mark 65

        Re: Fingers crossed

        Now the state of Schleswig-Holstein is hoping for third time lucky.

        Should read...

        Now the state of Schleswig-Holstein is hoping for the same volume discount the others got.

    2. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

      Re: Fingers crossed

      I just hope the Germans won't go full-Monty on industrial policy and attempt to use a German Linux distro. There are already great Linux distro's out there (like Linux Mint) and trying to push your own Linux is bound to lead to disappointment and even resentment among users.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fingers crossed

        They could easily run knoppix live linux wherever they wanted and be good. A fantastic German linux distribution with world wide love. Distrowatch shows another 18 active distributions that claim German origin. A few that I recognize from the wild: manjaro, opensuse, cachy, tuxedo, Q4OS, open media vault, etc. Plenty of very good choices really.

      2. Zwack

        Re: Fingers crossed

        Why shouldn't they use a German distribution like SUSE?

        https://www.suse.com/company/history/

        They became the leading distribution in Europe in 1997.

        But I assume that you know better and they should use Mint.

        1. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

          Re: Fingers crossed

          I haven't come across a Linux distro which compares to Linux Mint, except maybe for Corel Linux in the early 2000's. Now I'll be the first to admit that I haven't tried many other distro's since I settled on Mint years ago (Zorin and Elemental seemed nice, but have rough edges).

          I'm done experimenting with other distro's and sticking with Linux Mint until something better comes along.

          1. hedgie Bronze badge

            Re: Fingers crossed

            Once every choice meets the basic requirements of what you need (the stability, security, ability to run necessary software, purpose of the device etc) are met, then better becomes rather subjective. Any major distro should be able to handle that job. Personally, I prefer SUSE over Mint[1] especially as a KDE user. And the admin configurations I needed to do were simple enough that I could do it through YaST in my sleep when I was far less proficient in any *nix that didn't come from Cupertino. But Mint has its own conveniences, especially because far more people are familiar with apt and other Debian/*Buntu derivatives and could be better for the machines used by the average worker.

            [1] On Mint KDE and Kubuntu, X and KDE (on my 2011 desktop) used up almost half of one core taken together. On the same hardware and same user configuration, that was <10% on SUSE.

            1. druck Silver badge

              Re: Fingers crossed

              I just can't get over the boat that's gone in to so many window mangers that KDE has become a relative lightweight.

              1. hedgie Bronze badge

                Re: Fingers crossed

                Yeah. It is kinda surprising. Especially given how it has always had a ton of desktop shinies. I'm mostly a KDE user because of its customisability, and that the project does seem to try to have a consistent look and feel across the application suite. I do appreciate little touches like that.

      3. Lars
        Linux

        Re: Fingers crossed

        "Not a German Linux distro".

        That sounds odd for msny reasons.

        SUSE Linux sounds very German to me like also KDE and Knoppix and many more.-

        But anything Linux is that international from the start and Germany was there early on too. The first to try Linux on a mainframe was IBM Germany.

        And they could roll their own based on something very common.

      4. AndrueC Silver badge
        Meh

        Re: Fingers crossed

        I just hope the Germans won't go full-Monty on industrial policy and attempt to use a German Linux distro.

        ..and here it is. The Linux Achille's heel.

        User: "I want to install Windows"

        Provider: "Here you go."

        User: "I want to install Linux"

        Provider: "Which distro?"

        User: "Um..what's the difference?"

        Someone passing by: "Pregnant advark is best"

        Another passer by: "Gawd no, Zappo Grindo has a better widget"

        Someone who was quietly sitting near by and has now woken up: "You're both wrong Farting Pig is better because it doesn't use systemd"

        A brawl now breaks out. The user quietly leaves and goes to the Windows provider.

        1. parrot

          Re: Fingers crossed

          Farting Pig is no longer maintained, I’m on Boarwaft now.

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Fingers crossed

          The number of times that I've read comments here about "our build" referring to Windows. ISTM that corporate IT departments blow the default install image (which was vendor customised anyway) to install their own and then we get comments like this about "which distro?".

          The IT department decides on which distro. Fortunately they know a bit more about it that a Windows-only user or administrator who comes out with this junk. They may even have their own corporate build of it tailored to their own specific needs (in this case starting with everything defaulting to German locale and keyboard rather than US English). They may even have specific builds tailored to the needs of specific groups of users. It's called being professional.

        3. Lars
          Happy

          Re: Fingers crossed

          Yes, there are people like that, they never manage to buy a car because there are so many to choose from some never marry for the same reason.

          But they are not that common.

    3. This post has been deleted by its author

  5. Headley_Grange Silver badge

    I predict.......

    Let's hope they are successful. I predict MS tweaking document formats to make life annoying but I'm sure LO will respond quickly enough. The real trick would be for the local governments to specify open standards for text and spreadsheet docs (when needed, otherwise pdf should be the default) to be used by all relevant partners and subcontractors which, if MS started making life difficult, might also push more use of LO

    I also predict that the main areas where they'll suffer or get resistance will be the many hidden macro-filled Excel spreadsheets which support ERP, online forms and various databases. LO isn't such a good fit here in my experience. Macros work mostly OK, but will need testing or re-writing, but I guess the move away from VB was going to make this happen anyway. I think that the main issue will be importing data and getting character sets right, which has caused a bit of head-scratching and trial and error for me a couple of times, but no real biggy unless people are of a mindset that they don't want to make it work.

    1. Bebu
      Windows

      Re: I predict.......

      If a german state really wants this it will happen. The german people are nothing if not methodical and persistent and a considerable proportion of quality open source originates from german developers so the skills and motivation are there.

      Recall the progenitor of LibreOffice and OpenOffice, StarOffice was developed there (albeit not open source.)

      Whatever skulduggery Microsoft might attempt it is constrained by the certain knowledge the (IT) world is watching.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: I predict.......

        Yes, except that Schleswih-Holstein is one of the smallest states. It has a good reputation for data protection but it's also the location of online gambling in Germany…

    2. 43300 Silver badge

      Re: I predict.......

      Also, where are they storing thier standard office-type documents? Basic network fileshares would probbaly be best for compatibility and local control.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: I predict.......

        "where are they storing thier standard office-type documents?"

        That's taken care of. The previous article said NextCloud was part of the mix.

    3. I could be a dog really Silver badge

      Re: I predict.......

      The real trick would be for the local governments to specify open standards for text and spreadsheet docs

      That's already been done in some places. And the result ? MS spent a lot of money (allegedly) sponsoring people to join the relevant committees of multiple national standards bodies (including the BSI here in the UK) to rubber stand their application for their not all that open and still proprietary file formats to be ratified as an "open" standard. For good measure, they called it Office Open Format to deliberately cause confusion with Open Document Format (as used natively by the likes of OpenOffice/LibreOffice etc). I recall looking at it at the time - it's a right mess and codifies things like Excel bugs into the document format ! And that's apart from using their own definitions for time zones, country codes, etc. instead of simply referencing international standards for the same.

      Anyway, the end result is that MS's formats, which do not have an independent test suite against which to test them, are not technically an "open" standard allowing that box on the procurement form to be ticked.

    4. JulieM Silver badge

      Re: I predict.......

      I also predict that the main areas where they'll suffer or get resistance will be the many hidden macro-filled Excel spreadsheets which support ERP, online forms and various databases.
      LibreOffice is actually pretty good at handling things that conform to expectations.

      I expect what will be far more likely to break things will be all the documents laid out for US Letter paper, with ad hoc font changes instead of styles and spaces for positioning. Maybe even hand-generated tables of contents. In a situation like that, using different fonts (even, for that matter, newer or older versions of Microsoft's own fonts) with slightly different character spacings is going to mess up the layout royally. Not to mention all the spreadsheets where someone added up the figures in a column with a four-function calculator and typed in the answer.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: I predict.......

        Good heavens. Is there still such a thing as US letter? I haven't seen such a thing for years, not in Windows, not in Linux. The mention almost makes me feel nostalgic.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I predict.......

          We have the mirror image on this side of the pond - "what in the world is A4 paper???" Both are common standards, just not in the same regions.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: I predict.......

            The point is that, just as in the UK, German users will have been using ISO paper sizes for years in Windows and will do so in Linux. It is completely and utterly a non-issue in moving from ne to the other.

          2. JulieM Silver badge

            Re: I predict.......

            A4 paper (210 * 297) is magic, because (210 + 210) / 297 == 297 / 210; but US letter paper (216 * 279) is not magic, because (216 + 216) / 279 != 279 / 216.

            1. I could be a dog really Silver badge

              Re: I predict.......

              For those that don't get what you are saying, in simple terms the ISO A series of page sizes are designed such that you can start with an A0 sheet, cut it in half (across the shorter middle) and get two sheets of A1. The aspect ratio (length/height) of the A1 sheets is identical to the A0 sheet - i.e. while the area is half, the shape is identical. Then you can do the sam thing with the A1 sheets to get A2 - which again is the same aspect ratio. Then half those to get A3, and again to get A4, and again to get A5, and so on. While it may seem just something a mathematician might find "neat", it does have practical uses.

              For example, you can take a document laid out for A4 and print it 1.4 (1/√2) times bigger on A3 and it will fit the page but be bigger (e.g. useful for people with poor sight), or layout for A5 and print on A4. And the other way round, take a drawing laid out for (say) A2 and spit it out on the A3 laser at 0.71 (√2) the size - it might be a bit small, but useful if you don't have access to an A2 plotter.

              I think (but don't quote me on it), the B series is the same.

              Other common paper sizes don't work like that.

      2. revdjenk

        Re: I predict.......

        With LibreOffice I can open msword docs going back into the late 90's. (I started using Star Office in 1999, BTW) Most of the default LIbreOffice fonts are matched to the character spacings/kerning/etc. to the ms ones, so that is rarely an issue. One can also install ms fonts to assist, when needed.

        1. JulieM Silver badge

          Re: I predict.......

          But if you are supremely unlucky, the character dimensions in a different font (or even a different version of the same font) might be just different enough from the original to throw out the pagination of the entire document, spoiling the manually-created table of contents where rows of spaces have been used to separate the chapter heading from the corresponding page number.

    5. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: I predict.......

      The file format problem was solved a while ago and, to their credit, Microsoft have largely kept to their word and even publish the specifications for the extensions, though these are generally black box implementations, at least as far as the GUI goes. Macros are being increasingly phased out but support for them in other applications has been available for years. There only really VBA blobs so disassembling was never too onerous. Some people might like the "collaborative" aspects of working on the same document together but I suspect most people don't know about and there are other alternatives.

      But people love Outlook and I haven't seen an open source client that does all the calendar and mailbox sharing people say they need. I'd love to be proved wrong. Maybe OX (formerly Open Exchange, handily developed in Germany is up to snuff).

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: I predict.......

        I have calendar on SeaMonkey (same code base as Thunderbird) syncing to NextCloud and that in turn syncs to my phone. NC is also set up to sync a lot of directories. One of the folders on NC is shared with my wife so work I do for her ends up on her laptop a few seconds later. I have no use for the mail aspects of NextCloud so can't comment about that.

        1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: I predict.......

          I share calendars with SWMBO but I'm thinking more of the office context where calendars and mailboxes are shared and delegated a lot. Outlook seems to have a monopoly on doing this all in the same app and that's why I'd expect resistance to change being fiercest over it.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: I predict.......

            The calendar sharing would be done on the server: https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/latest/user_manual/en/groupware/calendar.html#sharing-calendars

            There also appears to be a facility to share mailboxes although, as I said, I have currently no use case for mail on NextCloud:: https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/stable/user_manual/en/groupware/mail.html#shared-mailbox

    6. Sub 20 Pilot

      Re: I predict.......

      Simple answer is to mandate an open standard and provide a date for it's implementation. Huge fines on MS or any other closed source outfit that doesn't toe the line.

      There is no reason why MS Office should be the de facto standard. I have to use 3 programs for my work that will only run on Windows and this should be illegal.

      The US will do nothing about it but the rest of the world need to get their act together and start to push for open standards.

      Also it may be a chance to simplify a lot of stuff - most office based stuff is not complex and there is no reason to tweak things so that they do not work in open source alternatives while doing fuck all about the security.

      On another issue, it is time all online meeting software had to follow an open standard as well. I can speak to anyone in the world using my Huawei or Samsung phones and I can pick up emails from anywhere using my choice of email client so how come Teams, Zoom, Meet etc. can't talk to each other ? I know why but governments need to make it so. They need to take back some control from the profiteering bastards that hold us all to ransom.

  6. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge
    Joke

    I didn't realise the Schleswig-Holstein question was "Microsoft or Libre Office?"

    1. Arthur the cat Silver badge

      But how many people really understand it this time?

  7. Kurgan

    I predict...

    They will fail because of people that will take bribes from MS to get them back in the game. Simple as that.

    1. doublerot13

      Re: I predict...

      Why the downvote? This happens all the time. Move closer to the sales side of IT if you don't think it's true.

      1. GraXXoR Bronze badge

        Re: I predict...

        I suspect this is due to the cynical certainty of failure that the poster replied with.

        Things are very different to a decade ago. Software is much more expensive, money is much harder to come by. Financial pressures have never been higher. Quality of open source software has also never been higher.

        Hopefully all these things can come together to create a positive outcome This time around.

    2. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

      Re: I predict...

      Yes, but the bribes won't be coming from Microsoft directly (plausible deniability) but from Microsoft resellers (whom are attritional). I've seen this trick used before.

  8. david 12 Silver badge

    Goodbye to "Personal" computers

    One of the reasons this will eventually be successful is that in-house development has all but disappeared. Anything you want to do, there is already a (commercial or free) app that does it. Once upon a time, porting your in-house Excel or Word (or Visual C or FoxPro or Delphi or SMB or .COM) app wasn't really possible. It's still not really possible, but all those Finance Regulation, Money-market Valuation, Scheduling, Resource Allocation and Mail-Merge apps are available off-the-shelf now, and mostly have been for decades. Once you've moved off the in-house apps, system compatibility is no longer a issue: at worst, you just select a different supplier.

    1. heyrick Silver badge

      Re: Goodbye to "Personal" computers

      "system compatibility is no longer a issue: at worst, you just select a different supplier."

      Far too many English councils would like a word with you...

      1. Snake Silver badge

        Re: Goodbye to "Personal" computers

        "Far too many English councils would like a word with you..."

        Thank you for posting that, I've been trying to tell them this for years but as they don't wish to believe, it has been in one ear...

        Entire industries depend upon custom software and you don't just "switch suppliers" because they don't even bother writing for different OS's to enable user choice. You have default Business OS (MS)...and MS. Would you like our MS-compatible software?

        We thought so.

      2. david 12 Silver badge

        Re: Goodbye to "Personal" computers

        Those well known English Council software failures are tied to particular operating systems? SAP requires a specific OS? Oracle?

        The problems the Germans will have moving away from MS software are unlikely to be because of server applications, and, as I asserted, less likely now to be because of bespoke PC applications. Any departments using Microsoft Dynamics are going to switch, but that's the whole point of the change -- not an unintended consequence that is going to derail the project.

  9. tychosoft

    Perhaps one difference for why now is that there is a "home team" to help prop up again. Both past times Suse was on some weird journey in strange hands, so essentially mia. Curiously enough it is returned as much a cloud vendor as an open source one. But what may be important it is a German one again! Canonical? Hardly European even before BR-Exit, let alone German. Red Hat? Exchanging one kind of US landlord for another. This may also be about the rise of a new protectionism, the "new" nationalism, etc.

    1. Zwack

      I used Suse way back (1997/1998) and it was good back then. I hope that it has improved.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      There are several distos which are based in Germany plus Devuan just over the border in the Netherlands. Also, as posted elsewhere, the Document Foundation (LibreOffice) and NextCloud, two components of their strategy are based in Germany as is KDE which could well be their desktop choice. There always would have been a home team.

  10. 's water music
    Unhappy

    Schleswig War

    came for the best of three jokes. Disappointed.

  11. Alan Bourke

    If LibreOffice provided anything even approaching an alternative to 365 in functionality ...

    ... then this task would be so much easier.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: If LibreOffice provided anything even approaching an alternative to 365 in functionality ...

      Including the bugs? And Redmond's stupidity tax?

      1. hoola Silver badge

        Re: If LibreOffice provided anything even approaching an alternative to 365 in functionality ...

        All software has bugs, the only reason people rant so much about Microsoft is because it is so widely used.

        Just using open source does not fix bugs. The big difference is that with open source most of the people using it are either technically proficient and can work around them or have the time to find a fix.

        Regular users who are being provided with software to use in the job are not so able to do it.

        Maybe they will be successful, only time will tell.

        1. Snake Silver badge

          Re: all software has bugs

          I'd love to know the justification for the downvote(s) beyond ego. Let's talk of LO's YEARS-old bug of ignoring tray feed settings on certain laser printers, why don't we :(

          But, no (frustrating) bugs here! Nope nope!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: all software has bugs

            Both have bugs, but they're often on a different scale. LO ignoring tray feed settings - annoying but can work around (and is probably a CUPS issue, not LO, especially if only for specific models). MS suddenly being unable to print at all (like it has several times in the past couple years due to updates), or OneDrive deciding to delete all files in both local and cloud storage (happened twice in 3 months to a co-worker), or Word locking solid for a couple minutes because it didn't like the file size (but worked fine with the same file before the update), or a complete replacement of the menu system we all knew how to use in order to have a new one that takes up 4x the space? And don't forget that with MS, you're PAYING for the updates that are causing all of these!

    2. mickaroo

      Re: If LibreOffice provided anything even approaching an alternative to 365 in functionality ...

      I've been using Softmaker Office 2024 on Linux Mint for some months now.

      Good file compatibility and the same "look-n-feel" as M$ Office.

      My Office 365 subscription may expire this summer. Terminally.

    3. Zwack

      Re: If LibreOffice provided anything even approaching an alternative to 365 in functionality ...

      In what way doesn't it?

      As far as a word processor goes it works.

      For a spreadsheet, well, I've seen enough issues between versions of Excel that Libre office seems to work well enough.

      Access is barely a database, so there are many alternatives.

      Presentations seem to work, but that isn't something I do very often.

      Visio is the one tool from Microsoft that I haven't been able to find a great replacement for. But then how many people really need Visio at your work?

      1. sbegrupt

        Re: If LibreOffice provided anything even approaching an alternative to 365 in functionality ...

        How about collaborative editing online on your private nextcloud instance? 100% as smooth as on 365?

        1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

          Re: If LibreOffice provided anything even approaching an alternative to 365 in functionality ...

          If that's what you want, then you're right - LibreOffice probably isn't the tool. But how many people are really doing that (and where Word really is needed and it's not being used as a bodge for, say. a wiki)? I'm sure there are some - but not most users.

      2. mistersaxon

        Re: If LibreOffice provided anything even approaching an alternative to 365 in functionality ...

        If you want to draw pretty pictures without Visio then draw.io is worth a look. It is definitely functional and can potentially read the Visio shape libraries that a lot of companies have created.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: If LibreOffice provided anything even approaching an alternative to 365 in functionality ...

          Isn't that online? Data sovereignty is the key requirement here. But there are alternatives depending on what sort of pictures you want to draw.

    4. ldo Silver badge

      Re: even approaching an alternative to 365 in functionality

      Well, it doesn’t have the “Ribbon”, if that’s what you mean.

      Remember, the Office 365 Ribbon was created in the days before modern widescreen monitors became popular. But most text documents that people create are still in portrait format. So some large GUI megawidget chewing up a substantial portion of the height of your screen reduces the amount of your document you can see at once, while wasting space on the sides.

      That’s why LibreOffice has the Sidebar instead. So you have more of the height of your screen available to show more of your document.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: even approaching an alternative to 365 in functionality

        Although LO does have a ribbon or ribbon-like choice for those who want to view their documents through a letterbox slot.

    5. lockt-in

      Re: If LibreOffice provided anything even approaching an alternative to 365 in functionality ...

      1) Online LibreOffice Technology Word Processors and Spreadsheets have more functionality than Microsoft 365, and with full enterprise support.

      How can this be? Surely a rich company like Microsoft would be better, ...perhaps they want people to keep having to go back to the Windows desktop?

      2) Offline apps with LibreOffice Technology supports more device types offline than Microsoft, and with full enterprise support.

      How can this be? Surely a rich company like Microsoft would support more devices, ...perhaps they don't want to support device types that could be seen as a threat in other areas of their business.

  12. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

    Holding on

    Desktop Linux has improved to such a degree that if will be nigh impossible for Microsoft to hold onto its Windows monopoly for long. Linux Mint (and others, I haven't tried many other versions) is just as easy to use as Windows (easier if you take into account not having to install device drivers) and far more secure and respectful of your privacy.

    I foresee Microsoft eventually offering an ad-based version of Windows for free. They won't pile on the ads too thick for fear of alienating users. Maybe subtly in the Windows Store or the Edge browser here and there.

    I've already managed to switch complete computer illiterates to Linux Mint and I urge everyone to do the same with family members and friends.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Holding on

      I don't think they do subtly.

    2. 43300 Silver badge

      Re: Holding on

      Some Linux distros might be reasonly straighforward to manage for a tech-savvy home user. Now try centralised management of thousands of devices. Sure, there are ways to do it but they are complicated and expensive. There is nothing with the simplicity of Intune (or Jamf for Apple devices) available. Intune can manage the main commercial platforms (Windows / MacOS / iOS / Android) reasonly well, but its functions for Linux are very, very basic.

      1. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

        Re: Holding on

        "Some Linux distros might be reasonably straightforward to manage for a tech-savvy home user..." ==> You're talking about 60% of the desktop market. If Microsoft loses this they'll lose the business customers too.

        The Centralized Management problem is something that can and will be addressed as soon the need for it arises.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Holding on

          Something along the lines of https://zorin.com/grid/

        2. 43300 Silver badge

          Re: Holding on

          "The Centralized Management problem is something that can and will be addressed as soon the need for it arises."

          In which case, why has nobody done it as it's a major obstacle to desktop Linux adoption?

          On a local LAN, there are options. Move to a situation with loads of laptops here, there and everywhere, and there aren't.

          1. Zwack

            Re: Holding on

            There are automated solutions for remote management depending on what distribution you are using.

            A lot of the tools for server management can just as effectively be used to manage desktops. Yes, it removes some aspects of local control, but in every enterprise that is restricted anyway.

            Tools like Ansible, Puppet, Chef, Cfengine,... Can all be used to install software on machines and configure it. This can be done in either a push or pull model.

            If you are not using a network service for account management in an enterprise then I will be shocked.

      2. JulieM Silver badge

        Re: Holding on

        Almost every Linux distribution already includes a built-in way to set up tens, hundreds or thousands of machines with the same initial configuration: its own native package manager!

        On a .deb-based Linux distribution (Ubuntu-derived; this technique almost certainly can also be modified for .rpm-based distributions [Red Hat-derived], but I don't know enough about the internals of RPM), you just need to create your own .deb package, which depends on all the packages you want installed. And when this is installed, it will automatically pull in all its own dependencies. (In a really big organisation with requirements for different package sets in different departments, you might want to have something like $COMPANY-base, $COMPANY-sales, $COMPANY-lab and so forth; just make sure the various departmental packages depend on the company-wide base package.)

        Begin by creating the skeleton package structure, making appropriate substitutions:

        $ mkdir ${PKG_NAME}_1.0-0_amd64

        $ mkdir ${PKG_NAME}_1.0-0_amd64/DEBIAN

        $ mkdir -p ${PKG_NAME}_1.0-0_amd64/usr/share/doc/${PKG_NAME}

        The folder structure under ${PKG_NAME}_1.0-0_amd64 will be copied into the root folder when the package is installed.

        Use your favourite editor to create ${PKG_NAME}_1.0-0_amd64/DEBIAN/control:

        Package: ${PKG_NAME}

        Version: 1.0-0

        Section: base

        Priority: optional

        Architecture: amd64

        Depends: build-essential,firefox-esr,libreoffice,vlc,audacity

        Maintainer: Julie Montoya <bluerizlagirl@example.co.uk>

        Description: ${COMPANY} standard packages

        The Depends: line is where the magic is at! Package names should be as you would supply to apt-get, and separated by commas. If you need more packages than you can fit on one line, or a longer description, just indent the second and subsequent lines with a single space.

        After the control file, generate ${PKG_NAME}_1.0-0_amd64/usr/share/doc/${PKG_NAME}/README:

        This README can contain anything you think you will have forgotten the next time you come to install this.

        You can even create ${PKG_NAME}_1.0-0_amd64/DEBIAN/postinst:

        #!/bin/bash

        # This is a shell script which will be run after everything has been copied to its proper place in the file system

        This would be an excellent opportunity to replace any configuration files under /etc/ with some of your own from a folder like ${PKG_NAME}_1.0-0_amd64/usr/share/${PKG_NAME}/etc (which by now will have been copied to /usr/share/${PKG_NAME}/etc). This might not be strictly the proper way to do it (which would be to repackage everything concerned, with different default configs) but it's good enough. Any other scripts you want to place in /usr/bin can of course be placed under ${PKG_NAME}_1.0-0_amd64/usr/bin .

        Now you just need to build your package;

        $ dpkg-deb -b {PKG_NAME}_1.0-0_amd64
        And it's ready for copying to and installing on as many machines as you like!

        Even if you need a package that is too new to have been included in the distribution's own repository, that's not a total deal-breaker. Just make your own .deb for it! (Let's call it ${FOREIGN_PKG_NAME}_0.0-1_all -- it should be -all, not -amd64, because it's not architecture-dependent until it's been built). It's similar to the above. Git clone the package source into ${FOREIGN_PKG_NAME}_0.0-1_all/usr/src/${FOREIGN_PKG_NAME}_0.0-1 and use postinst to build and install it -- but be sure to give the right arguments to configure to ensure it installs under /usr and not under /usr/local , because this time you're installing a proper, managed package. So have something like this in ${FOREIGN_PKG_NAME}_0.0-1_all/DEBIAN/postinst:

        #!/bin/sh

        OLD_FOLDER=$(pwd)

        cd /usr/src/${FOREIGN_PKG_NAME}_0.0-1

        ./configure --prefix=/usr

        make install

        cd $OLD_FOLDER # tidying up after yourself never hurts

        exit

        You should also have a file ${PKG_NAME}_0.0-1_all/DEBIAN/prerm -- this will be run before removing the package, and should make uninstall, make clean and rm anything you created (outside of /etc , which is special; configuration files ordinarily persist even after the package that created them is removed) that wasn't copied directly from your package's own folder structure. But you can get away without it if and only if you are never going to remove your homemade packages.

        Depending how many machines you need to manage, it might or might not be worth creating your own local repository mirror, and/or your own custom installer USB image with the packages you want already on it.

    3. mark l 2 Silver badge

      Re: Holding on

      Microsoft have been offering a ad-based free version of Windows for home users ever since they released Windows 10. You could upgrade from 7/8 for free for several years and even if you did a clean install and don't have a license to activate Windows, it will still be fully functional, just with a very slightly annoying watermark telling you its not activated.

      And look at the Windows start menu its chocked full of ads for products and services Microsoft are either own outright or they are clearly getting paid to advertise. And then there is all the telemetry data they can collect to which is worth a lot of money to them.

      1. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

        Re: Holding on

        A free upgrade from a Windows version that no one uses isn't an OFFICIAL free, ad-based Windows. With free I mean you can just go to the Microsoft website and push "Download" and start the installer.

      2. JulieM Silver badge

        Re: Holding on

        Because Microsoft would still rather home users were using a pirate copy of Windows than a legitimate copy of anything else. At least if you are familiar with Windows, there's a chance you will ask a future employer for Windows (and enforcement against businesses is easier). Whereas if -- faced with the stark choice between paying for Windows or using something else -- you not only chose something else, but developed some familiarity with it, you might persuade a future employer to look beyond Windows.

  13. CosmicTourist

    Linux has some advantages over WIndows, Android and IOS

    I feel that one of the best features of Linux is that there is no one mega-corporation which is trying to monetize every aspect of Linux, or trying to connect every device you own to every other device on the planet, or trying to extract your personal information from every single action you perform on your device so it can be shared or sold to anyone who wants to see it.

    I have used Windows are my primary operating system for decades, and I must confess that I have become less and less satisfied with Windows with each new release. Microsoft seems to want to cram "features" in the OS that only serve to make it more complicated, bloated and vulnerable to security breaches as they open up vector after vector into and out of Windows under the banner of 24/7 global connectivity, whether you want it or not.

    The phrase "digital sovereignty" makes a lot of sense to me. I have configured all my PC's to dual-boot into Linux and plan to look increasingly for ways to move out of the Windows world into the open source world. My user profile is unique to me and such a strategy would be difficult for many people, I'm sure, especially if their livelihoods depend of using applications only available on the Windows platform. But in my case, there is virtually nothing I do that cannot be done using Linux as a platform for similar applications that perform adequately if not superbly on Linux.

  14. dcline1701

    I want to hear how they plan to deal with the edge cases:

    The 3 people who live in Excel all day for whom replacing it would be a stupid waste of time and money.

    The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers. They (and others) will need hourly handholding and can't be replaced as they are backstopping their managers uncanny lack of people skills.

    Feel free to add your own.

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

      Um, sorry but, if they hate computers, switching them to Linux is not going to do any harm.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

        It might improve things. OTOH it might take away some excuses.

      2. doublelayer Silver badge

        Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

        Some of these people have, somehow that usually involved someone else doing the work, learned how to use two applications. As long as nothing ever changes, including the location of the icons on the desktop, they can just about use them. When an update moves a button, you get complaints and have to show them what to do. Now put them on an operating system where every button has moved, some have disappeared, some new ones have appeared, and there are such changes in all applications. Someone needs to take them through this, but I don't want to and the people I've seen who try usually get frustrated after a while.

        Fortunately, this is a small subset of users, but unfortunately, they exist. For example, I knew a user who accessed their browser by pressing alt+ctrl+g, which was assigned to the shortcut for Internet Explorer (dating this a bit), because they called that Google. When they were changed to a different computer, they were unaware how to get to the browser even though the IE icon was still there and looked the same because the keyboard shortcut wasn't set up. They didn't know how to set it up (two clicks). They didn't know how to find a browser in the start menu or the desktop. They didn't know how to change their home page and needed that to be Google again. Once I figured out what was happening, I simply put back their keyboard shortcut and assigned the home page. If they were moved to Linux or Mac OS and the keyboard shortcut could not be assigned, I'd have had to teach them how to use a desktop. This may sound easy, but remember that the problem only exists because the user concerned had managed to go for years without learning it. If I had to also teach them more complex changes, it could be very frustrating for both of us. That doesn't mean you don't do it, but it makes any large change more difficult.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

          Assuming you worked in IT it wasn't your job to train them - that's the responsibility of the functional manager. If there are tools they need to use then they have to be competent when they are recruited or trained and if they are untrainable then they have to go. If I were CTO I wouldn't allow a rollout of new software without a plan for training people to use it.

          When I got fed up the problems caused by engineers not being able to use Word to write properly structured documents I sent them on a Word course, created a set of templates for the various docs they had to write and made it clear that writing reports to a standard was part of their job. The one who whinged the most about being sent on a "secretary course" was invited to a meeting where I showed him the line in his CV where he claimed to be an expert in Word, Excel and Access**, reminded him that he didn't know how to put a table of contents in a document and had never heard of pivot tables and asked him whether he wanted to go on the course or move the discussion on to HR.

          We can't expect people to be good at stuff without training them and "good working knowledge of Excel" doesn't mean anything.

          **I know. This should have set off alarm bells.

          1. doublelayer Silver badge

            Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

            "Assuming you worked in IT it wasn't your job to train them - that's the responsibility of the functional manager."

            I wasn't in IT at the time. I was a programmer, working for a different company. I was volunteering some programming work for a charity, and while I was there, an employee of the charity ended up drafting me to look at the machine concerned. So you are absolutely right that it wasn't my job, as it wouldn't be the job of IT. Yet, when IT makes a change, they will be expected to train people, whether it's logical or not, as proven by the times when IT didn't make a change and they're still expected to train people. Pointing out that it shouldn't happen doesn't prevent it from happening nonetheless.

            If IT switches everyone to Linux, they'll undoubtedly be doing some training. A lot of people will have questions and confusion that they won't figure out instantly. IT decided to make this change, so they'll have to handle it. It's not that illogical to expect it. The trouble is that, even if that initial training deals with many of the users and they can carry on without more help, there will be some who need a lot more help, and IT has already demonstrated that they can train people on this new system. The work will end up on their list. They should plan for how they will handle it because they don't really have a realistic way to choose not to.

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

              "If IT switches everyone to Linux"

              This is not IT changing everyone to Linux. This is the state government changing everyone to Linux. Yes. there'll be retraining but it should certainly not be IT's responsibility, it will be that of the team tasked with implementing the state government's policy.

              BTW, who trains your users when Windows upgrades change things?

              1. doublelayer Silver badge

                Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

                "This is not IT changing everyone to Linux. This is the state government changing everyone to Linux."

                True in this case, although it's state government IT changing state government everything to Linux, so they'll probably be involved. In this case, the large change is likely being run from higher levels, so their IT offices will probably not need to do all the training. My training-specific comments were more relevant to individual companies switching over which I was referring to because comments here have referred to the general case.

                "BTW, who trains your users when Windows upgrades change things?"

                IT does. Fortunately, working on a programming team means they don't have to do much for me or those I interact with. IT trusts us to do all sorts of things and rarely has to get involved in anything. When people who know less, especially seen in less technical companies, get confused by interface changes, it is an unfortunate IT employee who is usually sent to clear it up. This may be one reason why IT doesn't really like to update things with UI changes.

                1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                  Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

                  Really hating UI changes as I do is one reason why I prefer Linux. In fact I'm pretty miffed about a recent change in KDE applications - it shows a welcome screen on severa applications and one of them doesn't have an option to turn it off.

        2. Zwack

          Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

          > If they were moved to Linux or Mac OS and the keyboard shortcut could not be assigned, I'd have had to teach them how to use a desktop.

          The word if is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. It took me about a minute to set up that shortcut in xfce despite never having done that before. I will be shocked if whatever distribution they are using does not have a keyboard macro function.

          1. doublelayer Silver badge

            Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

            It depends on the desktop in use, and I don't have a full list of which ones can do it and which ones can't. However, I was attempting to make a point about how very small details can end up being ridiculously important to some users. Perhaps it will turn out that any desktop environment on Linux can do keyboard shortcuts just like Windows has, but there are a hundred more tiny things that a stubborn user can complain about. One of two situations will occur:

            1. You spend 5 minutes * 100 UI things to painstakingly customize it to look exactly like the machine they used before.

            2. You spend probably a few hours training them to use something else, then another hour when they break something, and you hope it ends there.

            Either way, change is painful. I'm perfectly happy changing anyway, but as a programmer, I get to hide in my text editor while some unfortunate IT person has to make sure that people understand how to use their machines and that reduced productivity is not being blamed on them. My comment was in response to someone who said that switching from Windows to Linux shouldn't hurt for someone who hates computers. Yes, it absolutely will hurt, as would changing the other way, or changing basically anything else. That's what is not fun about people who hate computers and have to use them anyway.

        3. druck Silver badge

          Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

          Are you seriously telling me you couldn't set a shortcut of ctrl+alg+g to a browser on Linux?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

            Maybe he can't (more likely hasn't tried), but the rest of us can; it's trivial to do so.

        4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

          "When an update moves a button, you get complaints and have to show them what to do.."

          This is where Linux scores.

        5. Sub 20 Pilot

          Re: The 3 assistants with fantastic people skills who effing hate computers

          We need to stop delaying progress because some people are too stupid.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Feel free to add your own."

      Jimmy Saville.

    3. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      If there is a use-case for 3 people to have Excel then why wouldn't you treat that the same way as 3 people who use some other obscure app that only exists in Windows flavour?

      1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

        The problem here isn't the need for Excel, it's the fact that the crap managers who need the people-skills assistants haven't got the bottle to deal with the Excel hold outs. Sack the managers, replace them with their assistants who, with their people skills, can get the Excel hold-outs to lead the LO roll out because their specialist application knowledge and expertise puts them in the best position to help the rest of the staff transition.

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      First 3 - make them redundant.

      Second 3 - move them to roles where they don't have to use computers - which ought o have been done already. If there are no such roles tell them the computer is just like the big mobile phone to which they're probably addicted. Failing that, make them redundant too.

      1. doublelayer Silver badge

        Original: "The 3 people who live in Excel all day for whom replacing it would be a stupid waste of time and money."

        Reply: "First 3 - make them redundant."

        By definition, those people are doing something useful. If you make them redundant and easily hire three new people who can use other tools as well or better, have the institutional knowledge, and take over, great, do that. You don't have those conditions. The people who live in Excel may not understand a lot about computers, but they usually understand a lot about whatever is in those Excel spreadsheets. If those spreadsheets are pointless, then they're not the people asked about in the original question.

        So the original question, what do you do about people who are productive and necessary using Excel but either unwilling or unable to become as productive using LibreOffice, what are you going to do about it? If the answer isn't cheap or simple, it's unlikely to get past management when the relatively cheap and simple option of "buy some Excel licenses" is on the table. I've seen a lot of people who seem confused about why businesses aren't switching to Linux where the answer is that they've not even tried explaining the benefits and costs from the company's perspective. If you can't do that, it won't happen. If you can do it and don't, it usually still won't happen. "Benefits" in this case does not include things like the ideals of open source. We care, they don't. They're interested in time, money, productivity, all that stuff. If your costs are going to include firing three people with a lot of institutional knowledge and finding and training three new ones, you'll have to have a big benefit to balance that out.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          OK, the short answer. It's high level policy based on major political concerns: it's going to happen.

          Longer answer.

          Part 1. spreadsheets. Excel under Wine might be an answer but very likely short term while individual cases are looked at.

          If they're dealing with spread-sheet experts with analytical skills doing ad hoc analysis then they're likely going to have to cross-train. Excel specifics are only going to be part of their skill set. Very likely the project is going to have LO consultants on board, preferably someone who's a contributor or who knows the contributors. If the Excel users and consultants jointly identify some showstopper in LibreOffice, get some enhancements made and incorporated upstream - this is FOSS, not some closed source unfixable stuff.

          If they're just using some unchanging spreadsheets to gather data and generate reports do what should have been done anyway: use the spreadsheets as prototypes to generate programs to do the same thing. If they're just extracting data from a single database it might just be a simple report. Simplify the workflow. In any case it's not unknown for someone to sit there, producing some figures until the day they retire when it turns out they don't need to be replaced because nobody was using the data.

          Part 2. Computer haters. If somebody has no aptitude for using computers then either they're in the wrong job or the job's badly structured. This would be an ongoing error which isn't the consequence of a change of systems although it might be an opportunity to fix things. If their people skills are valuable either switch them to a role which uses those without making further demands or restructure things so that somebody else can handle the IT for them. Businesses can be pretty stupid about having somebody whose talents are in X and wanting them to do Y as well irrespective of whether they have any interest or talent at Y. The inevitable result is that they spend less time doing what they're good at while wasting time on the other or they get so pissed off you lose them entirely. Been there, got the scars. But it's a red herring in this particular case.

        2. Fred Daggy Silver badge
          WTF?

          I'd be asking more questions about what they produce that can't be replicated with a good program. No, I don't mean VB in Excel.

          99% sure they are dragging a lot of data from an ERP system. Potentially other sources as well. 3 months for a decent programmer, 6 months for "a programmer" and 2 to 4 years if you offshore it. But it would be done.

          We had one like that. Used to print every month enough to cut down 2 major forests and be working 14 hour days every month. But he knew his numbers. Eventually retired and the replacement got the job done in about 30 minutes of automation to the point she was bored after 3 weeks in the job. It was well known, but the original was the "goto guy" for a number of P and VPs.

          1. doublelayer Silver badge

            "I'd be asking more questions about what they produce that can't be replicated with a good program."

            Usually, the answer is nothing. However, hiring a programmer and giving them the information necessary to make a good program seems expensive, often more expensive than it really would be, and the Excel guy is trusted and more obviously needed. Sure, if they hired a programmer they could automate this and be on their way, but then the business asks what they'll do if the process implemented by that program changes. They're used to calling on the Excel guy who can change the spreadsheet quickly enough, and they're worried about how long it will take a new programmer to understand the code, understand the process, and implement any changes they need. The Excel guy is also capable of doing other jobs in between maintaining and operating those spreadsheets, so they probably can't be entirely replaced by a programmer.

            This does produce inefficiencies, but businesses don't necessarily know how much they could improve unless we tell them. This was the point of my original comment. I didn't say or mean that there are no benefits to adopting Linux or retiring spreadsheets. I didn't say or mean that the costs definitely outweighed the benefits. I did mean that, if we want that to happen, we will have to explain why our option is better, how they can benefit, what they will have to do that will hurt in the short term and why our version is worth doing it, and using business-focused examples rather than saying "Microsoft is just bad" because they don't necessarily agree and don't really care.

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              It wouldn't be surprising if, at the conclusion of a migration like this, 1. at least one person turns out to have been producing a product which wasn't needed; 2. at least one person is producing management figures which are being used but which are wrong because of a spreadsheet error.

              The underlying issue here isn't "Microsoft is bad" but "Microsoft can't meet data sovereignty requirements". Presumably Microsoft has the option of proposing a solution to that, one sufficiently robust that it can't be broken by having the "don't phone home" version actually replaced in the course of a routine upgrade.

            2. Fred Daggy Silver badge

              Eh, changed processes? I think your mistaken. The one thing these types of people do is NEVER CHANGE. No one iota. A cup of white tea with 1.5 sugars if you don't mind ... every day.

              If the produced the report like this in 1992, they sure did it the same way in 2002, 2012 and 2022.

            3. druck Silver badge

              You really are coming up with a lot of excuses for sticking with the borg, work as a Window's admin by any chance?

              1. doublelayer Silver badge

                As it happens, I don't. I develop software on Linux servers. There are times when it gets tested on Windows, but often, running on Windows is not required and I am free to use Linux-only interfaces.

                If you understand what I'm saying, you may find out that I'm not saying "switching to Linux is bad" or "you can't switch to Linux". I am saying that switching to Linux is hard, and that if you want to do it, you will have to have answers for them. Dismissing those hard things will only lead to wondering why nobody accepted your change request.

                1. shraap

                  Thanks for your relentlessly sensible posts on this. In particular this one - exactly right. If we want to shift things towards choices about OS etc., it has to be done in a way that makes sense to businesses, and explained to them the same way. Stroppy "M$/Evil Empire are bad!" rants aren't going to change anyone's mind.

                  (And, while we're at it, seeing any tiny criticism or question about your favourite distro as an assault on your entire identity is childish and dumb. We can actually discuss this like adults...)

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      At work, I'm in Excel all day, every day. I've developed some "interesting" macros to handle system configuration analysis that our system vendor (not going to name and shame so I can stay anonymous, but they're far too big to not know better!) should have had as standard, built-in tools over a decade ago. (Used Excel since we're limited on what software IT will let us install, and output in spreadsheet format works well in these cases.)

      I wish, wish, wish we could use Linux with LO instead. That's what I've been using at home since a year after XP went EOL, and wish I had done it sooner.

      If there are 3 people who "live in Excel all day" and yet can't seem to make the switch to LO - which uses the same syntax and can read the same files (at least for non-macro stuff, haven't tried macro compatibility), they should probably be replaced as they're not near as good as the company thinks they are.

      As for the folks with fantastic people skills but who hate computers, either make their job not require computer skills, or hire someone with basic computer skills and good people skills. It's the 21st century; basic computer skills are a requirement for most jobs. MS updates are going to cause just as many problems as switching to Linux+LO. (Probably more in the long run; the LO interface hasn't changed significantly in over 10 years, whereas MS Office...)

    6. hj

      smples... Citrix for all complicated cases (no I am not a fan, but if it works, it works)

  15. This post has been deleted by its author

  16. This post has been deleted by its author

  17. Adelaide

    EOL of Windows 10 makes choice easier

    For those running older PC's, the imminent End of Life of Windows 10, and the inability to install Windows 11 on those machines, influences the the decision to not only switch to open-source applications, but also to switch to an open-source operating system, such as Linux.

    Even those organizations that have a regular schedule for PC replacement will not appreciate the economic hit of having to change out all PC's by the deadline Microsoft has set, nor will they wish to pay for extended maintenance licenses, when share-holders would ask why they didn't look at the many free alternatives.

    Add to this the fact that many of those operating systems are available preconfigured with open-source business software, such as LibreOffice, and it would seem a strong reason to leave Microsoft's fold.

    1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

      Re: EOL of Windows 10 makes choice easier

      I wonder why MS tries to force features and "safety" on business, when they don't need it. It makes no sense, and is a sign that MS is too big and their heads have expanded to grotesque proportions.

      1. druck Silver badge

        Re: EOL of Windows 10 makes choice easier

        I wonder why Microsoft seems to spend more time looking for bugs in rivals products than they do their own.

  18. This post has been deleted by its author

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Microsoft wouldn't dream of doing that deliberately, no matter how high the stakes

    Oh, fsck off. You're only saying that because you don't want to be sued. They've done it often enough before. Ballmer's ghost is not entirely exorcised.

    1. Zwack

      Re: Microsoft wouldn't dream of doing that deliberately, no matter how high the stakes

      They might be wary of doing anything anti competitive given how much trouble it could get them in with the European Union.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Oh, fsck off.

      No, you fuck off, you clearly don't understand the tone of this site.

      Read it in a semi-sarcastic voice and you'll get the point.

    3. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

      Re: Microsoft wouldn't dream of doing that deliberately, no matter how high the stakes

      Wasn't that sarcasm?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Microsoft wouldn't dream of doing that deliberately, no matter how high the stakes

      Well do I remember opening a LibreOffice Calc file in MS Excel. At first glance, it looked fine, until I changed a cell and noted that no other cells (which used that one in a calculation) updated. Turned out that Excel only loaded the VALUE of the cell, not the FORMULA, making the entire workbook worthless.

      LO Calc had no trouble saving that file as an Excel file, which Excel happily (and correctly) loaded. Who's incompatible with who?

      To this day I suspect the incompatibility was intentional.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    After examining the blueprints recovered from the princess’ R2 unit, it’s been determined that an FOSS torpedo, shot precisely into a small exhaust port…

    1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
      Mushroom

      So thats what Poettering is really doing inside the evil empire.... all thats systemd stuff is just a cover for his engineering a weak point in windows..

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Erm, how many exhaust ports do you need?

  21. ldo Silver badge

    “[Microsoft] has infinite resources for lobbying, legal action, and whatever other actions ...”

    Somehow, I don’t think this is true any more. Office 365 may still be a major cash cow, but it’s clear that Windows itself is no longer quite as profitable as it once was. You see this in the declining level of investment put back into the OS, as evidenced by the deteriorating quality of software releases, and even of patches to fix the problems in those releases.

    If Microsoft were a rational business, out to exploit business opportunities wherever they may be found, it would offer 365 online services for LibreOffice.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: “[Microsoft] has infinite resources for lobbying, legal action, and whatever other actions ...”

      That doesn't solve the data sovereignty issue

  22. simmondp

    If only.....

    If only these states, organisation or whatever took the attitude of "we will take 30% of what we were paying Microsoft and use it to pay software engineers to contribute to Libre Office / Linux Development etc." that way they would get any additional featured they need, and we all end up with better products. Or is that too simplistic?

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: If only.....

      The Document (LibreOffice) Foundation is based in Germany. So is NextCloud. So is KDE. Given that consultancy will be involved in such a migration it's not impossible that what you suggest will actually be happening.

  23. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

    I think half the problem is why do all these staff need any of the office programs at all ?

    Powerpoint can go, nobody needs that bullshit.

    Word can be replaced by a simple text editor, theres simply no need for 99% of what word does, all those workers need to do is write text, with basic formatting. THe rest is a wastee of time.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "Powerpoint can go, nobody needs that bullshit."

      Oddly enough almost every speaker who gives one of the monthly talks at our Civic Soc used PoewerPoint. I haven't seen a plain old 35mm slide projector for years. The exceptions are those whose lectures aren't illustrated - we don't ask those back - and me with LO Impress.

  24. xyz123 Silver badge

    My work has been forced to cancel this years planned windows 11 upgrade. having unskippable unstoppable, UNFILTERABLE ads on the start menu was the death knell for 65,000 PCs needing an upgrade from windows 10.

    Our tech update is now checking into Linux.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Ooooh, unfilterable. Interesting. "The software includes ads we are not capable of filtering, and some of our users have made formal complaints to HR because the ads are offensive on ____ grounds." (Fill in the blank with any protected class that seems appropriate.)

  25. Long John Silver
    Pirate

    The broader context

    Enterprises — ranging from corner shops to behemoths such as Microsoft — are not static fixtures. Their internal dynamic varies with passing time; it is at its strongest during the period when its founders run a company. In principle, market-capitalism shares the key feature of Darwinian evolution: competition in adaptation to circumstance. Incidentally, only those ignorant of modern Darwinian theory ascribe “red in tooth and claw” to Evolution and, by analogy, to market-capitalism together with what they deem 'desirable' societal structures. Present day Darwinism recognises the rôle within species of kinship and ultraism. Recognised, too, is the place for symbiotic interaction among species. Furthermore, evolutionary process offers no guarantee of upward progression (according to criteria of an observer's choice); for example, species of fish dwelling in unlit caves have regressed because internal selection among said species no longer favours members in possession of eyesight.

    During recent years, a business/social ethos based upon, deliberately misconstrued by others, economic theory propounded by Friedrich Hayek, has taken hold, This most noticeably in the West during the 80s when Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, neither of whom previously claimed deep economic insight, were gulled by people nowadays designated as Neo-liberals. Nothing arises easily from a void, thus progenitor ideas expounded by Ayn Rand and similar arch-enemies of Communism/Socialism formed a background for Hayek's thinking.

    The foregoing context is required for understanding Microsoft's, and unrelated enterprises', present positions and their prospects for the future.

    Neo-liberalism has spawned 'deregulation', 'financialisation', 'globalisation', and hegemony for Western economic thought and business practices. Generated wealth has been arrogated by very few people; therefore it is inaccessible to would-be entrepreneurs. Conglomeration of businesses into transnational entities has created near-monopoly (monopsony, too) conditions. Multinational companies (e.g. Google and Amazon) can run rings around inept national governments and sclerotic institutions such as the EU. 'Financialisation', productive of little that is tangible, has resulted in major businesses (including banks), being run by 'money men' graduates from (educationally tacky) business schools; these creatures have latched onto 'profit maximisation' and 'never mind externalities'.

    Most current 'captains of industry and commerce', having no stake in their businesses other than that handed by shareholders (within a 'democracy' every bit as manipulable as the political variety), have no incentive to think beyond their next routinely due bonus, and they adore opportunities for self-enrichment via share buybacks which increase share values and thereby executive 'compensation' packages. By comparison, Ayn Rand comes across as a nice person.

    Microsoft, and many other huge enterprises capable of keeping (perhaps by buying) governments in thrall, are about to hit the buffers. Accelerated by foolish American foreign and trade policy, echoed by 'bought' politicians in the UK and on mainland Europe, deglobalisation, eschewal of the USD (perhaps return to commodity backed currencies) are afoot. New trade and security blocs are arising. Also, long-standing international conventions (e.g. regarding 'intellectual property'), these imposed upon emergent nations, shall be flouted, formally abandoned, or radically redrafted, at the behest of the 'Global South'.

    Microsoft sprouted, flowered and conferred global benefit for, perhaps, three decades. Now its fruit withers on the vine. Microsoft is entrenched in a mode of doing business no longer sustainable. Days beckon for return to 'cottage industries', these across much of the spectrum of manufacture and service.

    1. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: The broader context

      Business schools seem to have more in common with a seminary than a pure educational institution. You don't get to join 'management' -- aka 'the brethren' -- unless you're a MBA graduate and you don't get your MBA unless you're a believer. So like any religion it can perpetuate any myth. Unfortunately unlike a religion there's real world consequences from its thought so if there's a problem with that thought then it will show up in 'reality'. The trick then would be to root out all heresy, to clear the corporation, the country or even the globe of dissenting ideas.

  26. pomegranate

    Which sovereign..

    ..Controls your digital existence? Do you live in a liberal democracy, I hope?

    I’m just saying, merging control of your online existence and of your physical existence in one body poses a systemic risk, if you don’t.

    Nevertheless, this could put a lot of tax money into open source development. Great idea.

  27. MSArm

    Linux for Workgroups eh?

  28. ReaperX7

    Open source has already won. Microsoft themselves is a major contributor to FOSS because it's profitable.

    Windows to be fair, is dying slowly, and is on life support. As it is, Proton/Wine duplicates much of the functionality of win32api and DirectX API.

    Microsoft, about fifteen years ago was looking to pull the plug on Windows with the infamous Singularity/Midori project. They know Windows is on borrowed time.

    So to say there is still a battle between Microsoft and open source is a fallacy. The realm battle now is who will get the better win32api and how much longer proprietary software can survive.

  29. Dick Pountain

    Rent Seeking

    Just did a search for 'rent seeking' in this thread, and found none. Privacy is a major issue, but to me Microsoft's extraction of rent for its products is equally big

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