Hillary Clinton: 2024 will be 'ground zero' for AI election manipulation When it comes to AI possibly influencing elections, 2024 will be "ground zero," according to Hillary Clinton. This will be a huge election year, with more than four billion people on this planet eligible to vote in one poll or another. The output of generative AI in all this politics, at least, is expected to be unavoidable …
The only reason people falsely believe elections are such a "sham" is because of liars like your Orange Jesus who started making claims of election fraud long before the first, second and now third election he faced because being known as a loser is the worst thing in the world.
If there was fraud instead of doing everything possible to delay his Jan. 6 trial until after the election he should have insisted it take place as quickly as possible. Then he could have presented evidence of that fraud in a court of law and make it known to the world. But he can't, because there is no such evidence, and he has always known and admitted to insiders that he lost. Instead the batshit right wing crazies believe claims about dead dictators, Italian defense satellites, and smart home thermostats hacking election machines - hacking that somehow amazingly affects even hand recounts of paper ballots!
Isn’t it strange how only the elections he loses are fraudulent...
Don't you mean 'she'? Nearly 10yrs on, and she's still going on about how she was robbed. See also Al Gore and hanging chads, or just the way pretty much every US election has been challenged by one party or the other in the last few decades..
:"pretty much every US election has been challenged by one party or the other in the last few decades.."
The process keeps getting more and more opaque with more ways to game the system with mail-in ballots and so forth. There's also been a lot of revelations when it comes to how states aren't purging their roles of people who have died or moved away. There's also the big push to sign people up when they get a driving license with some questions about there being any checks to see if those people are eligible to vote. Whether or not the system is honest, it has to be SEEN as honest or the doubt is reasonable.
I like paper ballots filled out on the day in-person. It could be helpful to hold voting over more than one day so those that can't take time off still have a chance to vote in person. Absentee ballots should be limited to only those with legitimate needs for them. I'm also patient enough for counting to take several days so there can be some redundancy in counting/tallying. Did Mike skew the elections or is a HOLMES IV MOD L completely honest? Manny didn't think so.
Here's a better idea for you: make Election Day a national holiday.
The problem has never been with counting taking too long, it's always how long it takes to vote due to the lack of polling infrastructure. Every time I hear a tale from the USA about how someone didn't vote because it's a 30 minute drive each way to the polls and then they have to queue for 45 minutes when they get there, it blows my mind. I live in a UK city of 220,000 people. Wherever I lived I could walk to my polling station from my home in 5 minutes, and I've never had to queue for more than a couple of minutes when I get there. And it's not like the stations are teeming with staff - it's usually two desks with two people at each, covering a ward of around 5,000 voters, checking off people who have received a ballot by hand. You would think that a country that claims to prize democracy as highly as the US does would be willing to pay a little extra to make sure that everyone is represented.
The real reason the US system doesn't do all this already is because it might lead to the "wrong kind of people" getting to vote, like poor people and blacks. It's voter suppression, plain and simple.
Making it inconvenient to vote is a common tactic in jurisdictions where you've got a clear demographic that you don't want voting. The most exaggerated case are places where you get long lines of people forced to line up in the sun and where you make it a criminal offense to provide them with water.
Voting in US elections has always been local. You'd have polling places staffed by local volunteers who'd use a school hall, a church meeting room or even someone's garage for the purpose. The county election officers' job would be to supervise, train officers and provide the materials. Mail-in ballots were administered alongside in-person voting and over time more and more people opted to do this. With Covid came the change (locally at least) to all mail-in ballots. Some states like Oregon are literally all mail-in, others like California retain an in-person option but because there aren't as many people voting in person the number of polling places in a county was reduced while removing the requirement to vote at a particular polling place.
In our state (CA) at least every effort is made to ensure that eligible voters can vote. We haven't made election days holidays (yet) but people are allowed paid time off to go vote. However, neither employers nor trades unions are allowed to actively help with balloting so they can't actively collect ballots (but as they can collect envelopes for mailing collecting mail in ballots along with other mail is fine).
(BTW -- We always have a minimum of three workers at a polling place because the rule is that under no circumstances are ballots to be left with a single person.)
"Some states like Oregon are literally all mail-in, others like California retain an in-person option but because there aren't as many people voting in person the number of polling places in a county was reduced while removing the requirement to vote at a particular polling place."
I think that making the effort to go to the polls on the day shows real interest. It also means that the eligible person is likely the one casting the vote rather than a single person in the household making all of the decisions. There have been a few reports (and charges filed) where mail-in ballots are collected up at senior homes, filled out and sent in where the registered voter isn't capable of making even that basic of a decision. If we live long enough, it's sad but many of us will get to a point where we lose our mental faculties. We won't be allowed to drive, our legal/financial matters will be looked after by others and we may lose touch with reality. At that point, voting should be curtailed too.
Yes, so do we, and for the same reason. If I wasn't clear - the teams of workers are generally in the same room, managing the queue for different parts of the ward. If one of the workers in a team has to leave for a comfort break or whatever, the queue halts until they return but the ballots aren't left alone because the other team is there as well. Other than that your basic setup is very similar to that in the UK, except we never use private property as a polling station - local government bodies provide the use of school halls and community centres - and we retain the requirement to vote at a designated station as the tracking and counting is all done by hand.
I also find it interesting that you mention California allows paid time off to vote and Oregon is 100% mail-in ballots. It appears that the easier it is to vote in an American election, the more likely it is that your state is blue. I wonder why that could be, and if it is connected to voter suppression in red states.
"Here's a better idea for you: make Election Day a national holiday."
You were going great right until the last paragraph.
I too have never had an issue getting to a polling place, walking right up and being out the door in minutes (I already have my choices sorted when I get there).
There are still people that work jobs that can't take time off such as hospital staff and emergency responders. The operators at a nuclear power plant can't just shut the place down for a day so everybody can vote. If a polling place isn't sufficient for the number of voters, there should be another one opened and it should be easy to spot that if the voter roles are accurate and past turn out is looked at. For a very small town, perhaps the post office could be used since most towns have one. If that's not available, it would be a good reason to be allowed an absentee ballot. As to poor people, ?? If they are unemployed, they have the time and if busses were free on election day, cost wouldn't be a factor. You aren't enumerating any circumstances that exclude a group in a discriminating manner. How do black people not get to vote? A claim I believe that non-citizens are voting in the US and it shows that with even a minimal amount of effort, one can cast a ballot. That's a big issue that needs to be solved. The "motor-voter" initiatives are a problem for me. I've taken affirmative action to make sure I am registered to vote and if somebody else can't be bothered, I think it's better they are not signed up so there isn't the chance that somebody else is voting in their place. I'd even like to see that people under conservatorship aren't given a ballot. If they need somebody designated to officially look after their affairs, that seems to indicate they aren't in a good state of mind to make decisions about policy.
It takes minutes to vote in-person where I live with polling stations in schools, libraries, recreation centers, municipal facilities... everywhere (and it's not your only option) and even if there are lines for your alphabetical name, it moves very quickly. If you want to vote in-person even faster, go on one of the early voting days a few days ahead of time, you'll be in and out of there in seconds.
In the U.S. they have a bunch of petty little fiefdoms that actually control the elections. Who in their right mind would let state governments control federal elections.
"In the U.S. they have a bunch of petty little fiefdoms that actually control the elections. Who in their right mind would let state governments control federal elections."
It's Constitutional and otherwise there'd be a Federal Department of Elections that dictated everything. If you don't like how polling places are allocated now, just imagine what would happen if it were controlled by a politically appointed groups a couple of thousand miles away.
are SOP for the GQP these days.
They go through the court records and find those convicted of a felony which makes them illegible to vote. They then take that name (Joe Smith) and purge ALL others with that name from the voter role. No question about finding the right person...
This is very prevalent in states like Georgia and especially in Black districts. As this part of the population, generally vote Democratic, this ensures that there are more GQP candidates coming out on top.
This is election rigging but the Orange Jesus would never admit to it. It is only the radical fascist, commie Democrats that do that sort of thing.
As a non us Citizen I am just an interested observer. The US election system (like its Justice System) is broken beyond repair.
Isn’t it strange how only the elections he loses are fraudulent
Actually that's not true. Supposedly there were some Trump campaign lawyers sniffing around in deep red counties in states he won, because they didn't think the 50 points or whatever he won by was enough!
He alleged fraud well before the 2016 election, before the 2020 election, and has been alleging fraud before the upcoming 2024 election. That's probably why he's fooled such a large segment of the republican voter base (well that and Faux News supporting his lies until they had to pay $780 million to Dominion for libel and maybe another huge settlement to Smartmatic when that goes to trial) He kept talking about fraud so much it was easier for them to believe there was fraud, plus many of them are totally detached from reality. I remember one friend of a friend living in California insisting that Trump was going to win California "easily". Even if he lived in a very red area and saw only Trump yard signs you'd have to be a grade A moron to believe Trump had/has any more chance in California than Biden does in Alabama.
I, for one, was in Miami at the time. And it was a shame to see all these "pregnant chads" arbitrary re-interpretation of genuine votes on all networks. Of course it helps when your brother is the Governor of the state that will decide the outcome of the election. Yet, again, Al Gore, the democrat, having also won the popular vote, conceded gracefully. With a speech totally out of Trumps capabilities, in vocabulary as much as in statesmanship.
Just moments ago, I spoke with George W. Bush and congratulated him on becoming the 43rd president of the United States — and I promised him that I wouldn’t call him back this time.
I offered to meet with him as soon as possible so that we can start to heal the divisions of the campaign and the contest through which we just passed.
Almost a century and a half ago, Senator Stephen Douglas (ph) told Abraham Lincoln, who had just defeated him for the presidency, “Partisan feeling must yield to patriotism. I’m with you, Mr.President, and God bless you.”
Well, in that same spirit, I say to President-elect Bush that what remains of partisan rancor must now be put aside, and may God bless his stewardship of this country.
Neither he nor I anticipated this long and difficult road.Certainly neither of us wanted it to happen. Yet it came, and now it has ended, resolved, as it must be resolved, through the honored institutions of our democracy.
Over the library of one of our great law schools is inscribed the motto, “Not under man but under God and law.” That’s the ruling principle of American freedom, the source of our democratic liberties. I’ve tried to make it my guide throughout this contest as it has guided America’s deliberations of all the complex issues of the past five weeks.
Now the U.S. Supreme Court has spoken. Let there be no doubt,while I strongly disagree with the court’s decision, I accept it. I accept the finality of this outcome which will be ratified next Monday in the Electoral College. And tonight, for the sake of our unity of the people and the strength of our democracy, I offer my concession.
I also accept my responsibility, which I will discharge unconditionally, to honor the new president elect and do everything possible to help him bring Americans together in fulfillment of the great vision that our Declaration of Independence defines and that our Constitution affirms and defends. Let me say how grateful I am to all those who supported me and supported the cause for which we have fought. Tipper and I feel a deep gratitude to Joe and Hadassah Lieberman who brought passion and high purpose to our partnership and opened new doors, not just for our campaign but for our country.
Well I'm glad you're happy inside your little bubble. Just don't dare step foot out of it, lest you catch a glimpse of the real world.
For the record, I loathe "Orange Man," "Dementia Man," "Deranged Banshee" and all of the others equally. I just struggle to understand how anyone with more than three brain cells to rub together could believe anything spewed by any of them.
A shift away from first past the post would help. I have no love for the orange one; but if there is one constant in US politics it is a two sided coin toss and not built upon collaboration. This is increasingly leading to risk of outright conflict.
The same is true in UK. Many would vote with their mind for a different party if it were not nerfed by fptp. Instead, many have to vote “against” what they don’t want as opposed to vote for what you do want.
Collaboration is the worst thing to happen in politics.
It led to the post-war consensus in which Britain got to vote for their socialism in a red or blue tie.
There are downsides to FPTP that maybe AV could have solved, but a PR based system is a government where everything is decided in back rooms by parties horse trading away their promises in exchange for power.
Ditching FPTP would break the back of the uniparty problem, the thing you are complaining about.
Germany does pretty well with PR as does much of Europe.
Beyond that, alternatives mostly are some flavour of dictatorship. Is that really what you want? Or full blown anarchy? Corporate ownership of the state perhaps?
"Germany does pretty well with PR as does much of Europe."
Do we really ? We currently have some minister nancy faeser, propagating a "Demokratiefördergesetz" (Roughly translated to democracy augmentation bill) thats a totalitarian unconstitutional corruption inducing censor feast. Europe has just passed another censorship law called "digital services act" which really intensifies the already deranged censor mania from germanys "Netzwerkdurchsetzungsgesetz" from a few years ago.
Mainstream and politicians currently declare any critics on said politicians as enemies of "our democracy" and try to manipulate some kind of totalitarian "the established parties are "the democracy" all else is nazi" ideology.
There was even some state authored terror document during the panicdemic, discussing on how to traumatize a majority of the populace so that they would comply without asking to any lunatic "protective measures" that sick minds came up with. Professor Bude, one of the authors of this atrocity has said that in order to make the people comply, those psycho terror concepts should be used in every kind of "crisis", from panicdemics over warmonger hysterics to climate ideology.
Paywalled, but the teaser should suffice:
https://www.welt.de/kultur/plus250658831/Corona-Aufarbeitung-Einblicke-in-die-zynische-Welt-der-Angstkommunikation.html
Non paywalled:
https://multipolar-magazin.de/meldungen/0031
And theres a small amount of around 1,5 million euros going to a new kind of newspeak police. Dont say migration crisis, dear citizen, you should say acceptance issue.
And if you criticise too much, the constitution protection pseudopolice/"Verfassungssschutz" has just invented a new non felony felony, called "Delegitimierung des Staates" which imprecisely suggests that if you make some new Baerbock joke or recite her bacon of hope too often, you might be considered one of those pesky little antidemocrats who wants to "delegitimize" the state by mocking incompetent politicians. This is in line with lisa paus, minister for family and whatever who wants to address anything said or written online thats not against the law and might even be considered within the remnants of the former "free speech" but needs to be.... whatever she wants.
Like the 16 year old girl that was fetched out of class by three policemen directly in front of her classmates to take part in a "Gefährderansprache" (Some kind of preemptive pre crime "you dont want to do this" talk) because of some politically unwanted (not prohibited by law) TikTok videos. Of course, her mother or any other legal guardian as well as a possible lawyer was not informed until after the "talk".
Not really. I often hear from english speaking people that they are astounded by composite words in german. Still the funny made up "german accent" (look at Detritus in Discworld novels) is near enough to be funny but too far from the real language to actually be useful.
Composite words can be used in scrabble as they are legit words but if you lack some letters you can also use the words making up the composition.
Comparing to french, where "cahier d'exercises" is three seperate words, the german composite "Übungsheft" or "Hausaufgabenheft" can be cut into "Übung", "Heft", Haus", "Aufgabe" (much like "home","work").
Another funny development is some groups like politicians trying to use latin word parts to sound well educated while actually sounding arrogant and dumb when the latinised words are much too complicated in comparision to natural language. Those latinised words often make the composite words even longer.
And, of course, the longest composite words are almost everytime coming from politicians, beaurocrats, juristically inclined and sometimes military. I know only very few people who actually use those "Bandwurmwörter" ("tape worm words") or the much maligned "Bandwurmsätze" ("tape worm sentences", also primarily used by lawyers, judges, politicians.... you get the idea) voluntarily.
And, of course, the longest composite words are almost everytime coming from politicians, beaurocrats
Germans are not alone in that respect. See also the Welsh and the 'worlds longest placename'. Oh how they laughed winning that world record. Oh how the Welsh cried when they realised filling in their address on pretty much any official form was going to take forever. Only 58 letters!
Llanfairpwyll..... ?
I remember a photo in one of my first english lesson books where the countryside railway station (more like a sidewalk) was a little shorter than the station sign.
For people who like to write letters, maybe the blessings of computer printers or in low tech a customized stamp might do the trick. ;)
Detritus's accent is not any kind of pastiche German. It's a very uneducated ("fick") British working-class accent.
You can hear a similar accent in some older British movies. Watch these clips from The Ladykillers, listen to "One Round". That's what Detritus sounds like.
Nice to know, thank you.
My misinterpretation was due to the "dat" and "ze" parts, which i have read some decades ago in original DC comics where "General Blitzkrieg" (Some Nazi version of Iron Man) and his "Zwerg" were up against the justice league, back then with that knight in golden armor on his pegasus steed. I might still have the french magazine lying around with an assasination attempt on churchill since i used comics in different languages to get a basic grip to common language instead of "oxfordish" and otherwise "schoolish" accents.
Now where did i put my rogue trooper collection.... STAK.
Detritus never says "ze" for "the", it's always "der". Dat because he speaking like how people tink der stoopid people sound.
If you want to know exactly how he's meant to sound, hit up an archive and check out the 1950s radio comedy The Goon Show. Detritus would sound very much like the character Eccles.
"Detritus's accent is not any kind of pastiche German. It's a very uneducated ("fick") British working-class accent."
At least the audiobooks are voiced without a Germanic accent. The whole thing with trolls is that in temperature ranges people find comfortable, their brains overheat and don't work very well. Detritus is much more articulate after cooling down in the Pork Futures Warehouse and did a bit better after Cuddy made him a hat with a cooling fan.
Composite words are much more efficient than using a latin or greek one.
Also, they can be very precise.
KinderGarten
SchubKarre
MähDrescher (CutThresher)
FlugZeug (FlyThing)
FahrZeug (DriveThing)
AusPuff (where the Puff comes out of the car)
Of course the technique can be abused and perverted. The goal should be three or two words concatenated.
SpreizSpektrumFunkGerät is already questionable.
Lets see... making online platforms chargeable for letting people speak their minds whenever some eurocrat throws a fit and deems some words unfit for "democracy" or proclaims unwanted opinions to be "conspiracy theory" or "disinformation".
So basically, if you let people speak their minds and some eurocrat doesnt like this, its "disinformation" or another fluffy undefined "idontlikethis" category and youre in for a nice little fine/whatever.
Basically, the eurocracy defines whats "truth" and what may be published, on an ever changing never clearly defined basis. But thats not censoring directly so its no censorship. Its just a "friendly reminder" to the online platforms that they might be inclined to not let anyone say anything. "We" obviously must make sure that even the most unstable psychotic snowflake can live his/her/its/thems/ahoogadiddledoo internet dream without the danger of ever experiencing any unwanted opinion - also called "hate speech".
No. Hate speech in the DSA is defined under national laws plus the EU Code of Conduct definition ("all conduct publicly inciting to violence or hatred directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin").
So why are the wokish rants against "old white men" as well as the pretty much racist "critical race theory" not also banned if those regulations are indeed as precise as you seem to believe ?
Another case would be the current anti russian hatred against "the russians", in some cases not really well disguised under insults directed at "putin".
Thats already two cases which prove that this DSA is not what you believe. Or maybe it is and like with GDPR it is only (ab)used as interested parties see fit.
Its also funny that you can still be discriminated for having the "wrong" (political) opinion, which somewhat seems to be amiss in your quote. So maybe thats why those folks showing a big sign "AFDler töten !" (Kill everyone associated with the newest neoliberal party among all the other neoliberal parties that make up the Bundestag) or why one of the pseudo comedians in the protection racket media "Öffentlich-Rechtliche Medien" can close his show with the suggestion "Statt die Nazikeule rauszuholen, einfach mal ein paar Nazis keulen" (Instead of reciting the nazi-framing just kill off anyone deemed "nazi" (which currently means anyone without the "right" opinion). "keulen" is a verb normally used for mass slaughtering of livestock to prevent diseases, or in case of irish cows "for climate".
Concerning national laws, just take a look at the Verfassungsschutzbericht 2023, section 121, if i remember right.
And another not really law currently in favour in german government is the aforementioned "Demokratiefördergesetz" as well as the current movement to punish things not punisheable by law, or "unterhalb der Strafbarkeitsschwelle" if you prefer the direct quote from Lisa Paus. TikTok for example is already acting out of something thats called "vorauseilender Gehorsam" in germany, abide by rules and regulations that are not quite there yet in advance.
At the end of the day, any law must be applied to everyone equally. The DSA already isnt.
But he can't, because there is no such evidence, and he has always known and admitted to insiders that he lost... hacking that somehow amazingly affects even hand recounts of paper ballots!
And yet, investigations continue, irregularities are discovered, prosectutions for election interference or irregulaties are ongoing.
In a perfect world, this stuff should be investigated thoroughly. After all, free & fair elections are fundamental to democracy. And yet when questions are raised, Democrats jump into insta-denial mode and block investigations.. Usually when they can't possibly know the truth because there has been no investigation. Or, those investigations have been obstructed. So then we end up with 'secure' voting machines with mysterious logins from Kosovo. As I've said before, not necessarily proof of interference, just evidence of perhaps weaker security than we've been lead to believe, and easily fixed with 2FA for logins.
Then for paper ballots, there have been questions, and prosecutions for ballot stuffing. There's also stuff like 'Zuckbucks', and the way 'independent' campaigners pushed out election officials, took over critical roles like counts and 'curing' ballots etc.. All of which provide opportunities for election interference, even if they may not have altered the outcome.
Or there's more blatantly political stuff. The UK's introduced a photo ID requirement for voting in person. This can reduce election interference. The US, or the DNC is refusing any attempts to introduce voter ID, and pushing hard for mail-in votes with very weak voter ID and verification, which increases the risks of election interference.
All of which goes towards creating exciting new conspiracy theories rather than just doing some simple stuff to improve election security and integrity.
It was introduced to "solve" a non-existant "problem" - i.e. to stop personation voting.
In fact, personation was not, and is not, seen as a problem by the Electoral Commission. All requiring a PhotoID to vote does is put yet another brake on the general population's voting rights.
In fact, personation was not, and is not, seen as a problem by the Electoral Commission. All requiring a PhotoID to vote does is put yet another brake on the general population's voting rights.
I think it's more about the creeping compulsion to introduce ID cards in the UK. Also has some interesting consequences, ie for an experiment, I took an expired passport and was told it wasn't a valid ID document. Why not?
US is rather different and you can't really do anything without ID, so their argument that requiring ID is somehow 'racist' is totally bogus. That's also morphing things like driver's licences, or-
An applicant for a Real ID, either as a new driver license or ID card applicant, or renewing a current license or ID card, must present a citizenship document (US passport, certified birth certificate or citizenship certificate) or proof of legal immigrant status, proof of a Social Security number if they have been issued one, proof of any name changes if using birth certificate, and two proofs of residency in the state.
Some drivers licences already include things like CCPs for officer safety, and could easily add voting entitlement. But with a lot of ID card issues does little to prevent absentee voter fraud. Which is where the real problems lie, ie no real focus on security and integrity around mail-in or drop-box frauds. Basic theory is simple though. Laws state who is entitled to vote. If they're not, the vote should be counted. But implementing that is the challenge, and various investigations have show problems with accurate voter rolls, signature verification etc etc. All compounded by an increasingly mobile population. But laws can help with that, ie for drivers licences, it's mandatory to notify changes of address within a fairly short time. But that's also a challenge in general with ID systems. My identity is me. Not my address. So if I decide to live in a mobile home, what happens then?
> for an experiment, I took an expired passport and was told it wasn't a valid ID document. Why not?
Someone probably didn’t read the rules…
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/voting-and-elections/voter-id/accepted-forms-photo-id?gad_source=1&gclsrc=aw.ds
For financial transactions involving old people (who tend not to maintain their passports), I’ve used old passports endorsed by a solicitor as proof of id and that the person actually exists and is alive!
"My identity is me. Not my address. So if I decide to live in a mobile home, what happens then?"
Many issues on a ballot are only applicable to a certain area. It's bad enough that renters in my area are allowed to vote on a proposed parcel tax extension. It would be even worse if voters in other parts of the state could chime in as well. In the US, districts are defined and politicians run to represent a particular district of be a mayor of a certain town. If you don't live there, you shouldn't be allowed to vote. If you want to live a mobile life, you would only be allowed to vote for a statewide office in the US if you are considered a resident based on how much time you spend in the state but you wouldn't be eligible to vote for a representative or senator. The way the Presidential election works, you wouldn't be in a position to vote for a US President either.
Many issues on a ballot are only applicable to a certain area. It's bad enough that renters in my area are allowed to vote on a proposed parcel tax extension. It would be even worse if voters in other parts of the state could chime in as well. In the US, districts are defined and politicians run to represent a particular district of be a mayor of a certain town. If you don't live there, you shouldn't be allowed to vote.
I hate to think what a parcel tax might be. Aren't they already covered by postage and sales taxes?
Rest is a basic IT problem. Well, not so basic, but..
Step 1. ID everyone and issue a UID. For all official purposes, this is me. Ok, some issues to resolve, like ID theft linked to existing UIDs like the US SSN..
Step 2. Add metadata for voting entitlement.
Step 3. Have a simple portal that can allow metadata linked to a UID to be quickly and easily updated, like address info
Easy really. Well, except for keeping that secure, preventing fraud, government overreach etc etc. US system seems to be a lot more complicated given differences in State & Federal laws/regulations. This UID is entitled to vote in these elections, so simple, right? But kind of why a national ID card could be a good thing, except for the usual problem of the database ending up being abused. Labour tried it in the UK, it got repealed, but the plan never really went away and is being pushed still in various guises like election integrity, ID fraud prevention, online safety etc etc.
But that still wouldn't prevent potential frauds. I used to be involved in politics, mainly to get an inside look at how it worked. So locked into a Town Hall for the count. So a rather laborious process with tellers counting paper votes, and party scrutineers allowed to watch. We could challenge a ballot if we thought the marks weren't clear, or tellers would show us ballots and we could poll ourselves to decide who it was really for. But then the push for voting machines that could automate this, in theory. Except the last election had issues with everything from wrong paper sizes to possible remote logins. Exciting new ways to potentially committ election fraud! Or more simple problems. AFAIK some US procedures scan ballot papers, save counts and then the physical ballots are destroyed. Then when machines can't read ballots, they're manually 'cured'. Some stuff came out of an investigation into 'Zuckerbucks' that claimed his agents used same color pens to 'cure' ballots, so the curiing wasn't obvios as election rules state. So partisan operatives potentially manipulating the vote. Then if those original ballots are destroyed, there's no way to audit results, or in a case I can't find out right now, a state official decided to encrypt results so they cannot be challenged.
Or things like the results from the primaries. Apparently DC (pop 700,00ish) only has around 2,500 registered Republicans. The election process is supposed to be neutral, but in a city overwhelmingly Democrat.. can that be trusted? The Hatch Act is supposed to be anti-partisan, but in an increasingly divided political system, can that be trusted? Or can private contractors and volunteers be trusted? So back to Zuckerbucks-
https://rollcall.com/2024/02/07/lawmakers-clash-over-zuckerbucks-and-how-to-stop-private-election-funding/
“These funds were intended to support poll worker recruitment efforts or the purchase of new equipment. But in reality, some of these funds were used primarily for voter registration events and get-out-the-vote efforts in Democratic-leaning cities and towns,” the Wisconsin Republican said, arguing that these measures undermined the public’s trust in election administration.
I'm not convinced that's actually a bad thing, ie encouraging people to vote is arguably a good thing. If the Republicans didn't do the same thing, well, that's too bad. But problem with Zuckerbucks is it apparently went a lot further, ie staffing and taking over election processes instead of just funding them.
So a wicked problem made worse by politics. The basic idea should still be making sure people can trust in elections and the results.
"I hate to think what a parcel tax might be."
It's an addition tax levied on each parcel of land in the city. In my case, the original tax was proposed to pay for police and fire. It took the city three goes and the last one was handled entirely locally and I have my concerns about that. The problem is the city is part of a state-wide pension program that is behemoth fraud. They guarantee a certain minimum return to the workers regardless of how the fund performs. When the fund isn't earning enough return, the participating agencies are required to make additional contributions rather than the covered individuals not earning as much return. This costs the city millions of dollars per year and the cost to exit the program is so high it's an impossibility. Let's face it, local politics is an amateur sport and most local politicians are not savvy enough to understand contracts that run over .5kg when printed.
A UID is the One Ring. Any breach could bring an entire nation to a halt. It's also a massive target for criminals since the data files would make identity theft a complete dawdle and it could be very difficult to impossible to recover. There are also varying levels of need to keep things locked up tight with passports being rather more important than a driving license. Social Security numbers in the US have been compromised and unguarded for ages. There are instances where dozens of people are using one number so they can be employed and when an employer checks the number for the next illegal immigrant using it, there's no flag raised. Trying to make SSN's a secure form of ID at this point is closing the barn door after the animals are not just out, but over the horizon. I'm not convinced that government is not getting less competent over time.
It's an addition tax levied on each parcel of land in the city. In my case, the original tax was proposed to pay for police and fire. It took the city three goes and the last one was handled entirely locally and I have my concerns about that. The problem is the city is part of a state-wide pension program that is behemoth fraud.
Ah, I was wondering if it was an attempt to tax home shopping. UK pays for that in part via national and council tax, but has similar problems with unfunded pension liabilities, and regular pay rises. So there was an example of a school caretaker on a 6 figure salary higher than the Prime Miinister, simply because they'd been in that position for 30yrs and their pay had compounded. US property taxes have always confused me with incorporated vs unincorporated plats and different rules, ie when I looked some places had exemptions for school taxes if you were over a certain age, or your kids were. Not sure I agree with that given education is a public good, but I've seen there are problems in the US with empty, but expensively staffed schools.
A UID is the One Ring. Any breach could bring an entire nation to a halt. It's also a massive target for criminals since the data files would make identity theft a complete dawdle and it could be very difficult to impossible to recover. There are also varying levels of need to keep things locked up tight with passports being rather more important than a driving license. Social Security numbers in the US have been compromised and unguarded for ages.
Yup, I think there are pros and cons. There are similar issues to SSID with the UK's NI numbers. They're both widely used as ID, even though they probably shouldn't. I think an advantage of a UID used by all official systems is it might make recovery from ID theft simpler. Show evidence the ID's been compromised, then cancel old one and issue new one. It probably won't do much to reduce ID theft but it might make recovering from it easier, if there was a single point of contact to notify and push updates rather than the victim having to deal with multiple agencies.
Something that might help reduce ID theft is creating a way for data subjects to monitor activity on their UID. I once was refused credit, tried Experian's system to query my credit record and failed their ID validation because I couldn't answer questions about a loan I didn't have. So sent a formal Subject Access Request and found I had 5 people living in my 2-bed apartment, which perhaps explained why the milk vanished. Having a portal to check might help prevent that, ie property and tenancy agreements require ID, so being able to see if I'd moved, or mysterious strangers had moved in with me might help reduce fraud. Even better would be requiring all data controllers (with exceptions like LEAs) to provide data subjects with copies of all personal data held quarterly, or at least annually.
For voting though, if there was a trusted ID-residence-entitlement system, then it might help clean up electoral rolls. But an issue with that is they're currently localised, isolated and outsourced. The outsourcers would naturally object to a federalised system that cuts them off from their fees. In the UK and EU, it's already happening though to create online ID systems under the guise of online safety.. With the UK selecting Fujitsu, of Post Office fame. What could possibly go wrong? But ID services are something 'Big Tech' has been lobbying for years, ie logging into your government service with your FaceMelta ID. FaceMelta obviously loves this idea because they'd make bank, and of course it might provide a more trusted way to link our identities to all the other data they collect and sell.
"US property taxes have always confused me with incorporated vs unincorporated plats and different rules"
An incorporated city is one that has its own city government and is officially a "corporation" as recognized by the State. Unincorporated is governed by the county and is often the case in areas with low population densities even if an address has a city name. Property taxes are assessed by each state and can include additions at lower government levels to support things like hospitals. An area with low population density and no schools might see a discount, but I'm not sure since I've never lived in such an area. My property tax bill is very cryptic and takes a good half hour to look up all of the acronyms since nothing is hyperlinked. There are all sorts of things such as voter approved special funds to build a new school or public building. I think mine has a charge for trash services that is separate from the quarterly bill I get. It's not that much and there's F-all I can do about it so it's not worth the time to nail it down exactly. The parcel tax is something I can do something about and it's a fair chunk of my property tax. When it was first put in place, the promise was that taxes from pot growing was supposed to offset it once those businesses were up and running. Well, there's often a pong in the air of ripe cow pats when the wind is coming from these grow operations (a violation of the permits) and the city wants to extend the tax. They also want to add to the police department's fleet of "full-size" SUV's that they purchase from a dealer two states away and have outfitted by a vendor beyond that. Bonkers
> Stopping voting fraud is a good thing and is only opposed by people who must be assumed to benefit from it.
What's also a good thing is stopping bears dressed up as people from voting. Why is no-one doing anything about this? We should be poking everyone with a sharp stick when they vote to see if they growl. Anyone opposed to this must be a bear!
Frankly it's time governments focused on closing the bear gap. Do you have any idea how many have they in Russia, and China has at least 10 different kinds.
Sadly, that bit is true, eg-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68675794
A brown bear that injured five people during a rampage in a Slovak town has been shot dead, Environment Minister Tomas Taraba says.
And we thought urban foxes was a bad idea. I think a hiker was also killed by a bear recently in Slovakia. But it's a bit like polar bears. They were arguably over-hunted, hunting was banned/restricted, now they're no longer endagered they're becoming a threat to public safety again. Fortunately most places with polar bears also have advice like 'carry a gun'.. except oddly, Russia where firearms are tightly controlled. But not as tighly as within the EU. So the bear population has been happily expanding in Europe, especially around the Carpathians. The solution probably isn't to go full-Alaska and let everyone pack .45-70s, but culling seems like a really good idea. Especially as eco-freaks are busily re-introducing large predators like bears & wolves all around Europe.
As for voters dressed as bears, that'll be fine until we get to pack those .45-70s. I'm pretty sure furries are now a protected species. Might even be a market to create verified paw prints, but as long as they can pass any required ID checks, it's all good.
"but culling seems like a really good idea. "
The odd person shooting a problem bear doesn't get protested like a program run by government to manage population numbers. The government program will get put on hold by a judge until a case can be heard which might be another breeding season or two. When a decision is rendered, the program might wind up being banned for some technical reason or required to scale back the culling even though the population is now larger due to a ban on people shooting problem bears and any government program from doing it either.
"I have an anti elephant rock in my garden... it works 100%... I just looked out the window and there's no elephants out there at all.
Would you like one?"
They'd be welcome in the yard, but not the fridge. I haven't seen any footprints in the butter, so I think I'm ok so far.
"stopping voting fraud"?
Seriously? here in the UK?
I think at the last general election there was 600 cases of voter fraud investigated, 100 passed along for the police to look at resulting in 6 convictions with the rest given a warning.
Photo ID introduced
The number of people voting dropped by 15 000.
I have a polling card delivered to my house, I'm signed onto the electrol register at this address for many years, and yet that still isnt enough ID for the government.
All voter ID does is try and remove younger and minority people from voting in order that the tories will benefit as younger and minorities tend to vote lib dem/labour.
Sadly the ID rules backfired as many more older and more likely tory voters stayed away than the younger voters....
Anyway I know who I'm voting for..... the A.I. candidate because at least we can delete it and replace it with a better one ...... until they become self-aware at 5.37am 2029.............
More Tory MPs have been caught on sex offence charges since 2019, than voters convicted of electoral fraud.
Some might say that's because of the effort in policing is biased, but personally I think it's because the ruling party are a bunch of cunts.
I make no apologies for choice of language, the party's competent personnel have all resigned especially since the Brexit vote. What's left is but a shell of what used to be a respected opponent.
"More Tory MPs have been caught on sex offence charges since 2019, than voters convicted of electoral fraud."
But there is no voter fraud, so the story goes. If they go looking and find some, they lose face. If they find a lot, their previous statements of there being none will bite them on the ass.
Younger people and minorities? What a ridiculous excuse, if you arent eligible to vote, you cant vote, a picture ID along with your poll card is what lets you vote. you need to prove who you are, nothing is stopping younger people and minorities getting ID cards, you can get one for free from the government site.
Younger people and minorities? What a ridiculous excuse, if you arent eligible to vote, you cant vote, a picture ID along with your poll card is what lets you vote. you need to prove who you are, nothing is stopping younger people and minorities getting ID cards, you can get one for free from the government site.
Yep, plus young people are already conditioned to require ID, ie age ID to buy booze, go to pubs & clubs etc. I guess even stuff like non-transferable tickets for concerts helps as well.
But the real challange and risk is still around the integrity of votes that aren't cast in person. So verifying postal ballots etc. In future, e-voting could probably be made to work, but not everyone has Internet access, 'smart' phones etc. A lot is also down to isolated systems, ie voter registration and electoral rolls are often outsourced and suffer from poor hygiene leaving them open to abuse, or just errors. The last US election kinda highlighted those issues being mid-Covid and an increasingly mobile population.
They're not unsolvable problems though, and improving election integrity and security might help stop all the pointless (and often dishonest) arguments.
Younger people and minorities? What a ridiculous excuse
Just look at the list of accepted ID. How come a handful of different types of pensioner bus passes are accepted but a youth travel card or a student card isn't?
"Interesting, whilst a senior railcard is acceptable in cinemas etc, because to get one you have to provide passport or drivers licence, it isn’t on the list of officially accepted id."
It may be the underlying process. I've had a driving license in the US for quite a time now yet they still want me to provide my birth certificate yet again and stand in another dozen queues to get a "Real ID". I haven't bothered since it's hard for me to fly. I'm a domestic terrorist (I was surprised when I learned this) and I don't fit in coach seats. My shoulders are about 2" wider on either side than the seats and I'm taller than the supplied leg room. I'm also in less of a hurry so I can take the train or drive, which I prefer anyway. At least I know when I arrive that my bags are still neatly in order rather than completely tossed with my toiletries and first aid kit homogeneously mixed in. The last several times I've flown I was "randomly" selected for extra screening on each leg of the trip. I'm on somebody's (non-existant) list.
"How come a handful of different types of pensioner bus passes are accepted but a youth travel card or a student card isn't?"
I would expect that to get a pensioner bus pass, one must show other ID to prove one's age. A student or youth card might not have many checks at all. If I sign up at a local college, how much background checking are they going to do if I have money in hand?
>nothing is stopping younger people and minorities getting ID cards, you can get one for free from the government site.
So all those black people deported in the Windrush scandal could have avoided being rounded up and deported if they had just thought to apply for and carry a free Id card to prove they were real people?
Really how much simpler could we have made it? Perhaps some sort of badge they could sew onto their clothes ?
Maybe if when they arrived the labour govt at the time could have ensured they were given them the right paperwork and those that had been given paperwork had then kept it then there would not have been an issue.
Could you provide the necessary paperwork to show you are a citizen of whatever country you think you are a citizen of?
Maybe if when they arrived the labour govt at the time could have ensured they were given them the right paperwork and those that had been given paperwork had then kept it then there would not have been an issue.
I'm guessing you weren't around when Blair & Co. tried to bring in the UK's ID cards? I campaigned against that, even though in principle the idea of a single ID Card is a good one, the implementation was a typical bureaucratic circle jerk. List every address you've lived at for the last 20yrs with exact dates. I have no clue, and have moved around a lot.
It's much the same with charges for ID docs, like replacement birth certificates, especially if they have to be notarised. Why would I need a physical copy? Government already has that, so why would I need a copy of something they already hold to 'validate' information they already have? Especially when per the DPA, data controllers have a legal responsibility to ensure the data they hold is accurate. So simple solution would be to send the data subject everything they want for an ID and allow us to check that. But nope, bureacrats love making people fill out blank forms, and threatening large fines if anything is inaccurate.
But such is politics. With most ID schemes, the challenge and risk is usually with the database. Or more accurately, databases that can't or won't talk to each other. All that's really needed for an ID Card is a UID that uniquely identifies me. But we already have that, ie NI number in UK, or SSN for US. But a UID that can link to whatever relevant data already held negates most of the need for garbage that was proposed for the UK's ID Card system. Holding some of it on the card might be convenient, but also carries risks. The real problem is behind the scenes. So in the US (and UK) it's a legal requirement to update address for drivers licences. It's also a legal requirement to notify changes of address for Poll.. I mean Council Tax. Then there's the Electoral Roll, that's also mean to hold names and addresses. But AFAIK, they don't really talk to each other very well.
So a voter ID or ID card maybe helps prevent personation. Better hygiene and more joined-up databases might help reduce postal/ballot fraud. Then it's just a case of re-risking stuff like signature verification, the 'curing' and counting process and all the other things that are necessary for a trusted electoral system.
I remember the Blair ID card proposals well.
"Why would I need a physical copy?"
Well the main reason is so you have your own copy for when the govt f's up. I do not trust ANY govt to have correct paperwork. And certainly pre-computerisation I doubt they have any searchable records, assuming the records even still exist.
I did find it a little surprising that the people involved in the Windrush saga has never applied for a passport.
Everyone has seemingly abdicated responsibility for their own well being to other people and this is the result.
Having worked in an industry that requires a lot of checking it was useful to have paper copies of birth certs, parents marriage/divorce/death certs etc.
I have no issue with voter ID but the young persons railcards, student ID cards etc. should be accepted. That is an oversight. The US desperately needs voter ID but then they also need to get away from ballots that are 3ft long with half a million options. The white liberals blithering on about how minorities are most affected are some of the most racist people you will find.
I did find it a little surprising that the people involved in the Windrush saga has never applied for a passport.
Everyone has seemingly abdicated responsibility for their own well being to other people and this is the result.
Most are at the poor end of society. They were British citizens when they arrived. Why would they need to pay for a passport if they're not leaving the UK? They were all given ILR but the British government did not keep records or notify them of this - basically just some legal handwave in Parliament and life carries on.
Even if they did apply for a passport, they would have to apply to the country of their own citizenship after 1973, which knows nothing about their UK ILR status so nothing would be reflected in their new passport or on any UK system.
So should they have known the British government would suddenly start deporting them after 2012 or not allow them to enter the UK on the return flight because it can't run a residency database?
Fantastic way to blame the victim, AC.
"Most are at the poor end of society. They were British citizens when they arrived."
Yes, but none of them applied for a passport? Statistically it's possible, but unlikely. Everybody in my immediate family has a passport and we aren't remotely wealthy nor travel out of country very frequently. I used to do it a lot for work, but nothing in many years.
> I did find it a little surprising that the people involved in the Windrush saga has never applied for a passport.
Because under the 1948 British Nationality Act, they were bona fida British Citizens with the right to reside in the UK. So had no need to apply for a GB passport - their passage from the Caribbean being equivalent to getting a bus from one part of England to another; no passport necessary.
Whilst immigration laws were revised in the 1970s, it was the 2014 immigration legislation that failed to take proper account of their situation…
Interestingly, the 5M residents of Hong Kong had a similar right prior to the hand back to China.
Also remember, Brexit and all the furore over EU citizens who had exercised their EU rights and taken up residence in the UK, resulting in a long campaign to get such people to formally apply for either citizenship or residency.
@Roland6 - an upvote for you.
My grandparents and my father (who was 4 at the time) emigrated from India to the UK in 1948. They always considered themselves British even though my Grandfather was born in Germany (but was in the British army during WW2) and my Nan was mixed race English and Indian but never ever thought of herself as Indian.
People think of migration in today's terms rather than how the world was in the colonial and post colonial era. Up until 1949 citizens of any colony or dominion in the British Empire were automatically considered British subjects but this changed with the British Nationality Act 1948. After the act you could still register to become a British citizen even if you never came to the UK.
"But AFAIK, they don't really talk to each other very well."
That's a feature, not a bug. If you put all of your apples in one bag, as soon as one goes bad, the rest will follow quickly.
The main cry for combining systems is for convenience. The problem is that security is on the other side of the equation. When convenience goes up, security goes down. It's the same as having all of the computer systems at a hospital tied together so when one of the housekeeping staff uses the wifi to check email and clicks on a malware link the whole system is infected. Why is it so hard to manage staff wifi access and patient records separately? Different government ID system that have to go through a gatekeeper of some sort also adds redundancy and safety. How many sci-fi stories feature a character accessing their ident file and making a change? Loads. If instead of hacking one database, they had to break into 4 or 5 with different structures, there's a lot of risk should they get caught.
Maybe if when they arrived the labour govt at the time could have ensured they were given them the right paperwork and those that had been given paperwork had then kept it then there would not have been an issue.
At the time of arrival they were British citizens and there was no need to keep records.
Later the 1971 Immigration Act (Heath Government - Conservative) gave Commonwealth citizens indefinite leave to remain but these people did not receive any official communication to this effect or keep records.
In 2010 (Cameron Government - Conservative) did this:
Home Office destroyed Windrush landing cards, says ex-staffer
And then came the 2012 Hostile Environment which did not take into account the immigration status of Commonwealth citizens.
As much as you would like to blame Labour, this is just yet another Tory fuckup.
The destruction of the landing card started in 2009.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-who-destroyed-the-windrush-landing-cards
And stories of Windrush issues can be found from the 2000s.
This is a joint effort despite best efforts to just blame the tories.
Your source says:
Although the decision was made in 2009, it wasn’t until October 2010, when the Conservative-Lib Dem Coalition government were in power, that the registry slips were actually disposed of. The Home Office described this to us as an “operational decision”.
Would Labour destroyed boarding cards in the same way, started deporting them after 2012, carried on until 2020, or washed their hands of the whole affair and pretend it never happened in 2023? Bit of a reach to suggest that.
So for the downvoter:
UK removed legal protection for Windrush immigrants in 2014
All you have to do is remember which party governed in 2014 and which party governed in 1999.
> Yes cos I'm a filthy rotten immigrant
I hope your paperwork includes that of your parents and grand parents; the Shemima Begum case is highly instructive as when it comes to the crunch, if you have an vestige of non-UK parentage..
Thankfully, I did my research and discovered my “foreign” grand parents(*) had actually been born in the UK - well there are official records attesting to them being British in the absence of birth certificates and other official citizenship/residency documentation.
The wry laugh is that this satisfies the English nationality requirements of the National Front, a right wing racist political party active in the 1980s
(*) we now know from DNA testing their parents were not from Britain.
"Shamima Begum"
If she hadn't run off to fight for a terrorist group then there wouldn't have been an issue. I have no doubt that if a UK citizen went off to fight for Russia against Ukraine you'd not want them back.
I await the "but she was groomed!!!!1" responses and then I'll point out that the 'too young to understand' vs 'old enough to consent' seems to be based entirely on if it suits a narrative or not. 18/19 year olds are not old enough to understand the long term ramifications of their huge student loans but we should drop the voting age to 16 as they understand politics perfectly. Shamima was groomed and taken against her will to an active war zone to fight for a terrorist group but 8 year olds can consent to life altering medical procedures.
It's not a question of "want her back", but we have a justice system for this sort of thing. She should be brought back, tried and if (presumably) convicted, jailed. Her children are innocent and should not be punished.
Second, and more of an issue for me personally, is that it means we have two classes of British Citizen - those who can be stripped of that birthright on the whims of a Home Secretary, and those that can not.
"8 year olds can consent to life altering medical procedures" - Sounds like a typical bullshit Daily Mail headline. 8 year old children with gender dysphoria *can go to a clinic for support not for 'life altering medical procedures'.
*They will probably be adults by the time they get seen by a professional because the tories have fucked the NHS (again).
> *They will probably be adults by the time they get seen by a professional because the tories have fucked the NHS (again).
Those bastards, increasing NHS spending to the highest level it has ever been in real terms.
( Covid, and the left-wing establishment campaign to shut down the entire country including the health service, is what fucked the NHS )
Said like a gaslighting Tory fan boy.
There’s been a £322bn underspend on NHS funding since 2009/2010 according to the BMA. Hardly a left wing bunch.
https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/funding/health-funding-data-analysis
Or just ask one of the 7m on a waiting list.
The BMA is the doctors trade union you absolute weapon. Anything less than 100% of GDP isn't enough spending for them.
Next up: Athur Scargill says that the mines were under-subsidised to the tune of 500bn/year....
Again. The waiting lists is because the left ( opposition and almost all the media ) wanted to entirely shut the entire country down including the NHS and castigated Boris for suggesting that might not be ideal.
The part I was referring to was the issue of her citizenship and thus whose responsibility she was, not about the rights and wrongs of what she did that brought her to the attention of the UK authorities. As far as the UK government and courts were concerned because she had dual citizenship because of her mothers nationality, they were able to remove her British citizenship and wash their hands of the problem.
If she hadn't run off to fight for a terrorist group then there wouldn't have been an issue. I have no doubt that if a UK citizen went off to fight for Russia against Ukraine you'd not want them back.
They're both lifestyle choices. Begim chose an extreme form of Islamic fundamentalism over moderate Islam, or more traditional British lifestyle and values. She chose to reject the UK, so too bad. If she wants to live in an Islamic nation, other choices are available and she can request asylum in one of those. I think Ukraine gets a bit more complicated. So if someone chooses to go fight against Nazis, maybe that's a good thing, after all being a Nazi is mostly illegal in the UK. If they're fighting with Nazis, maybe we don't want those people back either, and both Ukraine and Russia offer citizenship for volunteers. AFAIK volunteers haven't been stripped of their UK citizenship, but probably would be interviewed about their motivations, and could be prosectuted if there's evidence they committed crimes.
Some aspects are also similar to Begim though and having seen interviews with foreign volunteers, many were very ignorant of the history, politics and civil war. Plus a lot really didn't understand what they were getting in for, especially a conflict as brutal as the SMO has been.
No, what it does is to provide free ID for anyone who does not have any of the dozens of acceptable forms of ID. If the 'young and the minority people' can't be fucking arsed to pick up a widely advertised free ID then they are the ones too stupid to vote. Westill have personal responsibility here in the UK.
We must stop pandering to the dumb and lazy in the UK, that way leads to the sort of fucked up state of affairs in the US.
From talking with the UKIP/Reform grumpy old man in the family, I expect there will be many such OAPs who will turn up to vote without photo Id because they didn’t need it in the past etc.
The laugh is if the UK had still been in the EU, there would be a queue of politicians saying “it’s all Brussels fault, they made us do it”…
I don't have a passport, it's over 20 years since I last had one and it was only because work was in NL and it was only stupid UK law that meant I had to have one then. We were in the EU (it was Maastricht Agreement and currency union time and my Dutch colleagues were very agitated about losing the Guilder) and I just walked in and out of Schipol without problem.
I don't currently have ANY form of photo ID. My driving licence was updated 35 years ago when we last changed houses.
When I got SC a few years ago, they had no problems with the above.
How am I too dumb and lazy ?
It's the same with these stupid anti-money laundering laws - they just get in the way of normal citizens going about their business while the intended targets just find another loophole to circumvent the problem.
> I don't have a passport, it's over 20 years since I last had one … I don't currently have ANY form of photo ID. My driving licence was updated 35 years ago when we last changed houses.
Enjoy it while you can: have reason to revise that driving licence (points, change of address, renewal)…
However, if you still resemble the picture in your 20 year old passport, you have a photo id. Which can be used along with your NI number to provide id.
The fun these days is getting hold of a driving licence without previously having a passport. Basically, apply for a passport before you apply for a driving licence and in the case of young people, it is easier for parents to get a passport for their children before they turn 18 (and for them to convert it to an adult passport) than it is for the 18+ child to get their first passport in their own right.
"All voter ID does is try and remove younger and minority people from voting in order that the tories will benefit"
Study citation needed.
Why would an ID requirement keep younger and minority people from voting? They don't have ID? I find that hard to believe. If you can't show an ID, you get no public benefits. If you are young and can't show an ID, no pints for you. The latter being the biggest reason for an ID (on average). The claim keeps being made that minorities (specifically black people) are disenfranchised but I'm not seeing this as a valid argument. If minorities were being denied the ability to get identification, there would be headlines all over. In the US, parts of government are wanting to give ID's to illegal immigrants with no paperwork at all. I wish I could choose a name and get a new government ID. I'd have several business and bank accounts and file taxes for each persona separately so I could keep them all under the poverty line and pay no tax. Paying for several PO boxes to have different mailing addresses would be worth the cost.
Except that it is not people turning up to vote by pretending to be someone else that is the problem in the UK.
The main problem is fraudulent, coerced or bribed postal votes, which requiring ID for voting in person does nothing about.
The people who chose to solve the non-problem but ignore the actual problem must be presumed to benefit from it.
"All requiring a PhotoID to vote does is put yet another brake on the general population's voting rights."
And when the bank does it to check that when you try to make a withdrawal, that's not a problem. People on the dole have to produce ID to sign up and sometimes it's checked when they receive benefits. If you want ciggies or alcohol, you have to produce ID. They card me at the local dollar store even thought there are rocks lying about younger than me (slight exaggeration). I'm fine with the people at the polls asking me for an ID to receive a ballot. All they do is check my name and address against their list. They aren't writing anything down. It means when I show up, I'm not going to discover that somebody else claiming to be me has voted in my place. A line is drawn through my name and the registrar can look at the lists to see that I am still taking an active role in the democratic process. People that don't vote for a period of time should be removed from the roles since chances are that they are no longer alive or aren't living in the district. It's not a burden and doesn't prevent anybody from voting. If somebody isn't competent enough to get an ID, perhaps that very low bar is appropriate to keep them from muddying the waters.
People that don't vote for a period of time should be removed from the roles since chances are that they are no longer alive or aren't living in the district.
Absolutely not, the fact that no party's manifesto offered something to make you vote last time should not be a reason to deny you a vote the next time. Otherwise there is a last-minute rush to enroll which leads to disenfranchisement.
"Absolutely not, the fact that no party's manifesto offered something to make you vote last time should not be a reason to deny you a vote the next time. Otherwise there is a last-minute rush to enroll which leads to disenfranchisement."
It's not that they look at the lists and say "you didn't vote last year so you have to re-register". It's usually two or more years when discussed. It's also easy to check these days online. A notice could be sent in advance of striking somebody's name. It's a requirement that one re-registers again after moving so if they don't get the card or it's sent back to the registrar, that's a valid reason to take the name off the list. When somebody does move, changing their registration should be on the list of things to do. It's been so long that I can't remember if the change-of-address packet you get from the post office has a reminder for that. If it doesn't, it should.
And yet, investigations continue, irregularities are discovered, prosectutions for election interference or irregulaties are ongoing.
Yes, and those prosecutions are more against republicans than democrats. And are all individual level. Some guy in Pennsylvania filled out his deceased mom's mail in ballot for Trump because "its who she would have voted for" (which may be true but its still illegal) People here and there voting in two states because they have homes in both states (which you are allowed to do, but only for local races in the state that isn't your main residence)
There are no grand conspiracies able to move the needle even a tiny bit toward swinging one of the states Trump lost.
The objections to voter ID laws are because it is known to suppress minority votes. If you don't own a car you don't tend to have a driver's license which is the commonly accepted form of ID. To obtain one you have to prove your identity which may involve stuff like a birth certificate and social security card, but poor people often lose those documents because they move a lot or especially if they have been evicted at some time in the past.
If you want to require an ID for voting you have to make sure the process for obtaining that ID is not too onerous and does not require payment - if you have to pay to get an ID (even including requirements to obtain it like getting a copy of your birth certificate) that's the equivalent to a poll tax which was made illegal in the Voting Rights Act 60 years ago. But republicans who initiate voter ID laws don't do of any of those things because they are putting the ID requirement in place to suppress the minority vote.
But republicans who initiate voter ID laws don't do of any of those things because they are putting the ID requirement in place to suppress the minority vote.
Of course they are geniarse. So poor people and 'minorities'. Soo.. what do you need to access welfare and social services in the US? Or obtain a SNAP or EBT card? Or if you're a minority, deal with being stopped and asked 'papers please'?
But no, it's all an evil conspiracy to deny election integrity and security. Also funnily enough, the Republicans have been gaining 'minority' votes because those minorities are often the victims of Democrat's policies. People want law and order, safety and security. Minorities tend to like stuff like Trump attending the wake for a murdered NYPD officer, while Biden throws a $500,000 a head fundraiser. At least Diller's murderer is actually in jail, unlike many other violent criminals who go through NYC's catch & release program.
"If you want to require an ID for voting you have to make sure the process for obtaining that ID is not too onerous and does not require payment "
Many US states will issue an ID for free if the applicant can show need.
I've moved a bunch over my lifetime and I still have a box of important papers that's I've had for ages now. It could get lost, but I would endeavor to replace things like my birth certificate if it did. My expired licenses and passports are irreplaceable as well as some archived banking, legal and tax records. It comes down to "do I want to vote?". If the answer is yes, the next question is what needs to be done. To think of that 7 days before the election isn't good planning and it's not disenfranchisement. The bar is set very low to vote in the US. To have some minimum level to meet isn't a problem. I expect that people figure out how to get ID if it means the taxpayers are going to cover their rent, buy them food and given them a phone. I see plenty of that where I live. Chances are very high that if there are two people in the queue at the local grocery store ahead of me, at least one will be paying for their energy drinks and ready meals with a benefits card. The day those cards are reloaded, everybody in front of me paying with one is even more likely.
"And yet when questions are raised, Democrats jump into insta-denial mode and block investigations."
Of course they do. They can make any claim they like if nobody ever does any investigating. If somebody does and fraud is discovered where some politicians say they were confident there was none, face is lost and that can't be allowed. Douglas Adams used the same concept in Young Zaphod. Of course, Douglas made it funny. In the real world, it should be seen as scary.
"Then for paper ballots, there have been questions, and prosecutions for ballot stuffing."
The issue with ballot stuffing is that it isn't difficult to clamp down on in a controlled environment. When I vote, my name (with ID) is compared against the roles including my address as I have a pretty common name and I get a chit for the next table where my name is checked again and I'm given a ballot to fill out and a folder to carry the ballot in so nobody can see my choices. I insert my ballot into a locked ballot collection box on the way out. I suppose I might be able to get away with depositing several ballots, but for enough of that to happen to make a difference would take an army of registered voters all willing to take part in the fraud, in-person, for little to no money. With mail-in ballots, it's much easier for somebody to hand off their ballot to somebody else with an "I can't be bothered with this, you do it for me" comment. Gramps and Gran might not notice if they don't get their ballots or might be given "help" filling them out. There's also a difference between committing a fraud where nobody can see and in public.
Where there is fraud, that should be seen as a point to find a simple solution to prevent going forward.
I'm not a fan of automation and technology when it comes to voting. The possibility of fraud on a large scale gets easier as more technology is added and it's much more difficult to detect and correct. I don't need the results of a vote the same evening. I expect a count to be done quickly just for efficiencies sake, but accuracy and transparency are far more important. There also needs to be a way to demonstrate that accuracy. That might be possible at some point electronically if there can be an unimpeachable audit log that's backed up on paper and sample counts are constantly made to verify absolute accuracy in the counting process.
The issue with ballot stuffing is that it isn't difficult to clamp down on in a controlled environment. When I vote, my name (with ID) is compared against the roles including my address as I have a pretty common name and I get a chit for the next table where my name is checked again and I'm given a ballot to fill out and a folder to carry the ballot in so nobody can see my choices. I insert my ballot into a locked ballot collection box on the way out.
Hello, this is the Lockpicking Lawyer..
I think this is where the serious (and neutral) debate needs to happen. It's one of those things where in principle, it's simple, in practice, it gets complicated. Especially if there's an erosion in trust. ISTR in the UK, there were ballot drop boxes in public locations like libraries. I guess the idea is that they're accessable, and library staff could keep an eye on them. The boxes themselves tend to be pretty low-tech with simple padlocks and simple seals over the slots to prevent tampering in transit once the election was over. Then those transported to counting sites. In the UK, when I was a scrutineer, we were locked into the Town Hall once that started. If we wanted to leave, we couldn't get back in and boxes were brought into the hall and stored in plain sight so we could witness them being unsealed, if we want to.
Now, we could potentially make that more secure. Apply Apple's Airtags or similar location tracking to ballot boxes, and maybe better anti-tamper seals & locks. That would at least provide a better audit trail and accountability. But another issue with some of the ballot box claims is.. So what? Unless an election is really close, you'd have to stuff a lot of boxes to swing the vote the way you want. But it may help avoid some of the complaints that happened around the last US election. And then there's mail-in ballots, which seem the most problematic. In theory, the USPS should be trustworthy, but still leaves the potential for stuffing or tampering.
Or this situation from Pennsylvania that caught my eye-
https://www.theepochtimes.com/us/republicans-score-win-in-court-battle-over-pennsylvania-ballot-requirements-5618180
Pennsylvania rules that require mail-in ballots to be dated are legal, a federal appeals court has ruled.
...According to the law, a voter casting a ballot by mail must mark the ballot, then place it inside a provided envelope. That envelope must then be placed into a second envelope, which contains the areas for the date and signature.
“The elector shall then fill out, date and sign the declaration printed on such envelope,” the law states.
The Republican National Committee (RNC) and other groups appealed Judge Baxter’s ruling, arguing that her conclusion was wrong.
“This is a crucial victory for election integrity and voter confidence in the Keystone State and nationwide. Pennsylvanians deserve to feel confident in the security of their mail ballots, and this 3rd Circuit ruling roundly rejects unlawful left-wing attempts to count undated or incorrectly dated mail ballot,” Michael Whatley, the RNC’s chairman, said in a statement after the new ruling was handed down.
Also count unsigned ballots, making any attempt to improve signature verification impossible, or ballot stuffing easier. But I think this case is a good example of the way election issues have become politicisied, and shouldn't have required a Federal Court determination. Rules are rules, if Pensylvannia law requires procedures to be followed, then those procedures should be followed or the law changed. If people make mistakes, or can't follow simple instructions, well, that's too bad. Educate voters, but those rules were in place to provide some sense of security. I guess it's also an area where security could be improved, at a cost, eg tamper-resistant paper and envelopes.
" it's simple, in practice, it gets complicated. Especially if there's an erosion in trust. ISTR in the UK, there were ballot drop boxes in public locations like libraries."
There's plenty of video in the US of CCTV showing people with arms full of ballots being shoved into drop boxes where that is not legal. They can be put in the post for free so there's no need for somebody to collect up ballots so others aren't inconvenienced.
Theres also a problem of judges doing things like ruling ballots have to be counted if they are unsigned, un-dated or signatures don't match. BTW, I'm against signing a ballot or the envelope it's in as the ballot is supposed to be secret and I find that a very good concept. When I vote in person, the ballot I get is the next one on the perforated pad. While it has a serial number, no note of it is made. I suppose they could figure something out, but they aren't making any notes on the register when they had it to me. All they do is place a line through my name.
The only reason people falsely believe elections are such a "sham" is because of liars like your Orange Jesus who started making claims of election fraud long before the first, second and now third election he faced because being known as a loser is the worst thing in the world.
And Al Gore did the same thing with his hanging chads. Hilary has been whining about how her election was stolen.
But Democrats don't believe in democracy, hence why they're obstructing pretty much every attempt to investigate or improve the US voting system. Methinks they doth protest too much. Plus there's also the Streisand effect in play. Every time they throw Trumped up charges against the Orange One, his polling tends to improve. If they'd just ignored him, maybe he'd just have faded from the public consciousness. Instead, the Democrats have probably given him billions in free publicity, and if he wins his appeals, he'll get even more.
But you also highlight the real problem with modern politics. I have no real skin in the US elections games. You assume because I question the Dem's motives, I must be an 'extreme MAGA Republican' and Trump supporter. As I keep pointing out, I'm actually a libertarian, and if you want a functioning democracy, you have to be able to trust (and verify) election systems. I can't remember where this happened, but there's an ongoing case where the governor(?) encrypted voting results so they couldn't be examined, or challenged.. Despite no legal authority to obstruct in that way.
Anyone who believes in democracy should find that kind of behaviour troubling, regardless of what colour they wear.
"Hilary has been whining about how her election was stolen."
The interesting thing was the voting analysis after that election makes lots of sense. Hillary won the largest cities and the popular vote, but did very poorly elsewhere. Somewhere I think I saved a topographic voting map that was very telling. Hillary was a poor choice for the democrats. She has lots of baggage including a raft of things that had been accused but never formally investigated. Insulting everybody even thinking of voting for Mr Trump but could have been on the fence didn't endear her to anybody either. She's not a nice person and can't play one on TV either. I've got a book from a Secret Service agent that worked in the White House when Mr. Bill was President. His account of her was not positive in any respect.
> Hillary won the largest cities and the popular vote, but did very poorly elsewhere.
Also in the news:
1 - red-necks and other uneducated people, mostly in the center of the map, tend to vote for Republicans (so that they can "keep their gun").
2 - She was very much aware of the threat to peace posed by Russia and committed to counter Putin with all the might of the union.
3 - As a result, Putin unleashed his disinformation war machine against her. Many impressionable people are still infected in 2024 and claim she "has lost of baggage" and other insinuations.
"Yeah and each time someone accuses you of being a murderer, they don't have to prove it. Instead you have to prove you're innocent. Do you happen to live in Russia by any chance?"
Or Mexico. They have that as well. It depends a lot on your financial standing.
"if any party disputes an election result, it it then decided by the courts."
I have to disagree with that since it would put the outcome in the hands of a judge who may be a political appointee.
If there is a dispute, there needs to be a solid basis for the accusation and a recount of ballots performed under strict supervision. This means the ballots have to be in a form that can be counted accurately and can't be changed while being cast of afterwards. A judge could make the determination of whether a recount is advisable or not. There can be some bias in that but safeguards can be implemented so a recount or even re-vote is required when the difference falls within a recognized margin of error.
"I have to disagree with that since it would put the outcome in the hands of a judge who may be a political appointee."
Just to be clear, my comment applies to democracies which implement Separation of Powers. Your mileage may vary.
"If this is the case, you don’t have an independent judiciary…"
Well, yes. I'm in the US and that was ignored years ago. Even if there isn't actually a bias, a person whose position depended on politics can't be always said to be free of a bias. The next step up the ladder to an even more senior judiciary posting may also require patronage and there are people that keep track of judges and how well they hold the party line.
The US Constitution does specify a distinct separation of powers amongst the 3 branches of government, but that's not known by some leaders such as AOC. She's advocated for things that would be clear violations. The current President want's to use taxpayer money to pay off loads of student loans which would require action by the US Congress to approve such a policy and the budget for it. Recent US Presidents are increasingly using "Executive Orders" to implement policy as a way of bypassing other branches. That particular power was instituted at a time when limited communications meant that it could be difficult to assemble congressional members quickly enough in an emergency when a critical decision had to be made immediately. It's not as relevant now and is constantly abused.
/me thinks: a shill for Demo[n,c][R,r]ats would say...
* FACEPALM *
[the left cannot meme]
I think we should let the people decide, and make sure that NO speech is silenced, filtered, nor edited [including the vile kinds of things that are often said about Trump] so that everyone is well informed, NOT motivated by pure emotion nor psychologically manipulated. and that ONLY legal (live) citizen votes are counted, exactly once per voter.
Do that and I'd accept the results. But I doubt that will actually happen... (the neo-nobility is compelled to divide us and keep us peasants in our place, RIGHT CCP???)
If you want to see the current investigative journalism about Election manipulation in the US then go visit the Greg Palast website - https://www.gregpalast.com - He's basically an honest journalist who is always documenting everything from the position of "What's Best for the USA" - not a political party decision ... and what is an honest vote, regardless of who the vote is for.
It was Hillary's campaign team that made up that lie, you know?
Democrats support the right to lie. TSHTF around the world, and the leader of the free world just gave a speech about how he used to take the train across the Baltimore bridge. Now, he's off to do extremely important thing, namely attend a fundraiser with Clinton, Obama and a bunch of celebs. This is how the 'ordinary Americans' roll..
Just fact checking this. The Steele dossier was partially paid for by her foundation but neither Clinton nor her team personally wrote it.
Further, while it may have been discredited, there are similar allegations from other sources that have not been debunked.
In short, nothing of what you said is true. It's like the misrepresentations about her illegally receiving debate questions ahead of time (she didn't personally receive them and what actually did happen wasn't illegal on her part).
Just fact checking this. The Steele dossier was partially paid for by her foundation but neither Clinton nor her team personally wrote it.
I paid for your assassination, but I didn't pull the trigger. So I'm entirely innocent right? It doesn't matter whether she wrote it or not, but her election campaign certainly span the heck out of it.
I was in America watching all the "discussions" on social media that promoted BREXIT and thought that so many of the "discussions" were fake, working to promote BREXIT and that they were created by Russian and other sources to severally damage the UK and crush the worldwide respect that so many countries had, looking at the excellent UK influence and modifications to EU activity towards other countries around Europe.
And this attitude is normally considered ridiculous, but there was also an internet discussion that Trump's computer was accessing Russian internal sources several months before the US election. with a lot of DNS monitoring.
One major factor that resulted in Hillary Clinton loosing the election was a massive number of totally fake messages sent to Democratic voters all over the USA that they did not need to physically show up to vote because "Your vote is already submitted and recorded"
My attitude these days is to delete and move the phone number to spam every time I get any "political" message ... these days the majority of phone and text messages seem to promote Trump, the most recent crap message last week said that when Trump becomes president it will be the first time we'd see Jesus in America ... totally crappy spam DELETED
And this attitude is normally considered ridiculous, but there was also an internet discussion that Trump's computer was accessing Russian internal sources several months before the US election. with a lot of DNS monitoring.
Yep. You're right about that. This is the problem with 'misinformation'. A lot of people are extremely gullible. Many of them support the Democrats. Some are even IT types who support the Democrats. Other IT types look at this bombshelll and just go 'WTF?'
But it's explained here-
https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/1/13486596/trump-russia-alfabank-server-hotline-connection-debunk
A simple DNS query to a mailserver somehow gets spun into a conspiracy theory from the person who wiped her mail server 'with a cloth'. Later, there were of course other conspiracy theories where someone decided to leak Whitehouse DNS records.. but Democrats have rarely been concerned with security.
I might be wrong as i am not very interested in the US political system (which seems like one party divided in two differently coloured campaign posters to me as an outsider) but as far as i have seen in so called "representative democracies" you get one vote for a party but have no influence at all on the politicians that are shoved on any higher position/seat/ministry/presidency.
I (mis?) remember that as in germany you cant really vote for the president. In germany thats a back room haggling between the strongest parties, in the US i (mis?)remember something called "electoral college" (?) which can even vote for any candidate even when the voters voted otherwise.
Please correct me as i might quite likely be wrong but as far as i see it, neither US nor german citizens have any influence over which candidate is up for presidency.
BTW: as this seems to be an ongoing issue for decades, have machines that can count the votes correctly already been constructed and implemented ? Not asking for a friend but automatic ballot counting is something thats coming up here every now and then so some firsthand experience would be nice.
Yep. I liked this part-
Clinton, who lost to Donald Trump in the 2016 White House race, has personal experience with election disinformation attempts and how technology can be potentially used for nefarious purposes.
She should certainly know. Nearly 10yrs later, she's still ranting about how she was robbed, despite running an extremely dirty campaign. And not understanding that she lost because a lot of Americans just can't stand entitled hypocrits like her.
Nobody's interested in your conspiracy theories STFU.
And yet you chose to respond. Thank you for your well considered and insightful contribution to the debate. If nothing else, you've shown just how 'liberal' Democrats can be, and how they absolutely do not act as fascists. And even choosing to do so from an anonymong account. Are you embarrased to be attributed to your comments?
> Jellied, don't be tempted to feed the AC trolls.
JE is as thin skin as his idols, be it Trump, or Putin. He tends to get annoyed when people state facts that don't match those alternate facts he avidly seeks from his preferred [dis]information news outlet. So, rather than wasting time in introspection he strives to "correct" everyone's comments in mostly nonsensical tirades. Often adding totally unrelated points as the "rant of the day". Endlessly. Day in, day out. Apparently, that does not seem to count as trolling in your opinion.
Eel,
You come off as a foaming at the mouth conspiracy theorist.
Touch grass, I believe is the accepted vernacular.
The way you're banging on about Ms Clinton, it's like she shat on a glass table for you but charged you double, and hence you're angry.
DON'T BELIEVE POLITICS DUMBDUMB
DONT FALL FOR ANYTHING
IT
IS
A
SCAM
AND YOU ARE PROMOTING LIES
Eel,You come off as a foaming at the mouth conspiracy theorist.
Et tu, Brute. All I need to do to get people foaming at the mouth here is mention Trump, or criticise Clinton. If you actually bother to read what I post, I'm actually more interested in democracy and ways to safeguard that.
> All I need to do to get people foaming at the mouth here is mention Trump,
Most people mentioning Trump trigger hilarity, disbelief, disgust or pity. To get people foaming instead, you have to be part of his loyal defenders.
> I'm actually more interested in democracy and ways to safeguard that.
Yes, we remember how you supported Navalny. A true defender of democracy indeed. Come and collect your medal.
Most people mentioning Trump trigger hilarity, disbelief, disgust or pity.
Indeed. This may be one of the reasons I mention he who must be named because it's soo easy to trigger TDS sufferers. Meanwhile, Biden signs written decree declaring-
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/biden-easter-transgender-visibility/
NOW, THEREFORE, I, JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR., President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim March 31, 2024, as Transgender Day of Visibility.
And as usual for a 'neutral' 'fact checker', completely ignores that Biden's now denying ever doing this. In which case, who issued this decree? Cornpop?
Yes, we remember how you supported Navalny. A true defender of democracy indeed.
I don't see any connection between Navalny and democracy. I do see a bunch of politicians looking rather foolish for declaring his murder without any evidence. Many promptly did the same when they declared the Moscow massacre was the responsibility of ISIS-K(iev). I do however see those as examples of hypocrisy, where the West will happily interfere with other country's democracy, but it's JUST NOT FAIR if they interfere with ours.
Thanks for confirming exactly what I wrote (and adding your aversion for transgender to the [long] list of Trumpard features.
> I don't see any connection between Navalny and democracy
Exactly my point. Thanks for confirming. At least that's clear.
> the Moscow massacre was the responsibility of ISIS-K(iev).
Gunmen were four Tajik citizens. Of course, the Interpol-searched Parkinson patient and his clique couldn't resist the temptation to blame Ukraine. And so do his little trolls whenever they see an opportunity. Case in point. As if Russia was not able to make itself more than one enemy at a time. At least this time, in contrast with the Moscow 1999 bombings, the FSB was not directly involved - they just ignored the warnings shared by the US embassy.
Thanks for confirming exactly what I wrote (and adding your aversion for transgender to the [long] list of Trumpard features.
Logic is all Greek to you I guess. How do you come up with "aversion to transgender" when I simply pointed out Biden is denying issuing the Presidential decree for TV day? Even though it was a pretty pointless bit of gesture politics given that day has been celebrated on March 31st for years, it's just Easter is a movable feast. And Biden is (allegedly) a staunch Catholic and many American voters are Christians. But now he's denying transgender visibilty, presumably because he's seen the polls over the weekend.
Exactly my point. Thanks for confirming. At least that's clear
Clinton's whining about election interference. Nalavalny was an example of our election inteference, even though we picked a far-right candidate who hated immigrants and loved fraud. And had essentially zero chance of toppling The Putin because Russians knew he was a Western puppet. Well, those that had even heard of him. Russia's Communist Party is, and always has been Putin's main opposition party. Funnily enough, America's Communist Party often marched with the Dem's 'Antifa' during those 'firey, but mostly peaceful' protests that declared Trump stole the election and demanded he be removed from office. Democrats and Communists working together to overthrow a President.. who'd have thunk it?
Gunmen were four Tajik citizens... they just ignored the warnings shared by the US embassy.
The four 'Tajik citizens' who happened to be making a beeline straight for Ukraine's border.. Which just happens to be a heavily mined and defended conflict zone. Why not head for the Baltics instead, as the murderer of Darya Dugina did? But they didn't make it to the border, and probable liquidation. Instead, they were captured and interrogated, raising the question of who paid and assisted them. As for the US warnings, apparently they were both information limited, and perhaps more importantly, time limited. So they warned of an attack in the 'next 48hrs', issued on 7th March, with the massacre occuring on the 22nd March. We apparently gave minimal information to 'protect methods and sources', but if you're playing the great game, warnings like that could also be used to analyse how Russia responds, which locations and events they secure, and use that to plan future attacks..
And previously various Western leaders had been encouraging Urkaine to practice asymettric warfare, ie going after soft targets like this to create terror and promote political change..
Just a few corrections:
- Tansgender is a non issue for most normal, balanced people. Strangely, not for Trumpards, and, quite remarkably, not for Iranian clerics, and not for Putin and his clique either. Birds of a feather.
- Nobody "picked" Navalny. He emerged after Nestov's assassination by democracy-loving Putin. The "leaked" call about who's the West "will pick next" is a laughable fake where supposed Americans speak with a hilarious Russian accent. Thousands of Russians defied the regimes at his funeral. Facts. Judging by your constant attempts to demote him, he must have been a dangerous threat to Putin and the Russian regime. Thanks for confirming.
- Contrary to your claim, Western leaders have actually discouraged Ukrainian attacks on Russian territory. As you could have read again, recently, in the Financial Times. FWIW, the FT is a well regarded newspaper targeting readers with some decent level of education, especially in economics matters.
Tansgender is a non issue for most normal, balanced people
You are, as always missing the point. Biden signed a decree proclaiming TV day. Then prompty denied knowing anything about it. So it obviously seems to have become an issue for him now. As for balanced, well there's plenty of evidence from his falling off bicycles, falling up or down stairs and wandering around aimlessly to show he may have problems in that respect.
Nobody "picked" Navalny. He emerged after Nestov's assassination by democracy-loving Putin.
Cite evidence or retract. Thanks. I think.. you'll struggle because from a quick search, I can't find any evidence of a 'Nestov', let alone his assassination. There's a ton of evidence to show we promoted Navalny, and now Yolanda..
Facts. Judging by your constant attempts to demote him, he must have been a dangerous threat to Putin and the Russian regime
Nope. Facts really aren't something you're familiar with. He was never any threat to Putin, and neither is Yolanda. Again the issue is why Clinton is whining about foreign interference when we interfere all the time.
FWIW, the FT is a well regarded newspaper targeting readers with some decent level of education, especially in economics matters.
It's like the Grauniad, only with fewer pictures and more numbers. The crossword is ok though. But it's been consistently pro-globalisation, and also supported Clinton, Obama and Biden in the last US elections. If you understood some of their articles, you'd perhaps have a better grasp of the simple relationship between costs, prices and inflation though.. Or it's again a demonstration that you're just a poor troll..
Yeah, like Trumpards would make all that fuss if the day was the day of literacy or breast cancer. LMAO. Trumpards fascination against LGBTQIA+ is just... fascinating.
What takes the biscuit is that all of this comes from minions of a self-confessed sex abuser, notable sex addict, who can't talk about women without being either disrespectful or inappropriate and remembered for famous quotes about dating his own daughter. Deranged cult members with repressed sexual impulses congregating around their master.
It's Nemtsov of course. You already know that.
Hehe, nice try. Yes. According to Wikipedia, it's a thing. Embarrassing, huh? Probably well under the truth.
Several key allegations made in June 2016 about the Russian government's efforts to get Trump elected were later described as "prescient" because they were corroborated six months later in the January 2017 report by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and the Mueller Report, namely that Vladimir Putin favored Trump over Hillary Clinton; that he personally ordered an "influence campaign" to harm Clinton's campaign and to "undermine public faith in the US democratic process"; that he ordered cyberattacks on both parties;] and that many Trump campaign officials and associates had numerous secretive contacts with Russian officials and agents.
I mean, even Donald Trump Junior confirmed the promise to repel the Magnitsky act and all the rest. Russian trolls hate it. But yet again, Russia has never been very discrete.
Trumpards fascination against LGBTQIA+ is just... fascinating.
But I'm not talking about Trump. You're desperately deflecting away from Biden denying his decree. Why is this? To me, the more fascinating aspect is the Dems fixation on <5% of the US population rather than it's Christian, Islamic and other large majorities. This is a rather novel election strategy campaign that Biden is following..
What takes the biscuit is that all of this comes from minions of a self-confessed sex abuser, notable sex addict, who can't talk about women without being either disrespectful or inappropriate and remembered for famous quotes about dating his own daughter. Deranged cult members with repressed sexual impulses congregating around their master.
Not sure what you're referring to, other than projecting. Again. I assume you're referring to the Biden family? Showering with daughters, marrying sister-in-laws, blowing millions on, well, hookers and blow?
It's Nemtsov of course. You already know that.
I have many skills, but telepathy isn't one of them. But another sic burn. Anyway-
The assassination of Boris Nemtsov, a Russian politician opposed to the government of Vladimir Putin, occurred in central Moscow on Bolshoy Moskvoretsky Bridge at 23:31 local time on 27 February 2015
In late 2006, Navalny appealed to the Moscow City Hall, asking it to grant permission to conduct the nationalist 2006 Russian march. However, he added that Yabloko condemned "any ethnic or racial hatred and any xenophobia" and called on the police to oppose "any fascist, Nazi, xenophobic manifestations"
So Navalny was politically active well before Nemtsov was murdered for reasons unknown. Nalvany's career with Yabloko was, of course slowed down after they expelled him for being racist and xenophobic. But then-
Upon his release on 20 December 2011, Navalny called on Russians to unite against Putin, who Navalny said would try to claim victory in the presidential election, which was held on 4 March 2012
So as usual, you mix up cause and effect. Navalny had been campaigning, and being promoted by the West long before Nemtsov's murder.. But then you usually believe that effect precedes cause, don't you?
> To me, the more fascinating aspect is the Dems fixation on <5% of the US population rather than it's Christian, Islamic and other large majorities.
That's call in-clu-si-ve-ness (not leaving minorities aside). Your calling it a "fixation" reveals that you're resenting it. You can't hide it. Inclusiveness is on Dems side and fixation is on your side.
BTW, libido and religion are orthogonal dimensions. You can be LGBTQIA AND Christian OR Muslim OR any other religion, genius.
Also, we don't say "Islamic" for the faith. "Muslim" is the faith. For educated people, Islamic pairs with "Art", "Calendar", "Architecture" or "Calligraphy". For xenophobic people, "Islamic" goes with "State". We know which of these caught your interest.
Yes, Navalny was born before Nemtsov was gunned down. I give you that, genius with "many skills" ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) .
That's call in-clu-si-ve-ness (not leaving minorities aside). Your calling it a "fixation" reveals that you're resenting it.
No, it reveals that you keep ignoring the question in order to make crude personal attacks. My question is very simple. Presdential Decree from Biden issued before March 31st, along with X's etc. After March 31st, Biden claims to know nothing about it. Is this a sign of more memory loss? Did someone stick a pile of paperwork in front of Biden, telling him he could have his ice cream once he'd signed them?
Yes, Navalny was born before Nemtsov was gunned down.
He emerged after Nestov's assassination by democracy-loving Putin.
Yet clearly he emerged before Nemtsov's murder. And again, you have no evidence Putin had anything to do with it.
Stop focusing on LGBT. This is insane. You and the other Trumpards don't care about other celebrations. You brought this up because for you guys LGBT is associated with sin, Easter is holy, and they fell on the same day. It's obvious for all that the goal is to rally Christians for the election. Dare you not deny that and hide behind semantic considerations.
Navalny obviously took over opposition leadership only once Nemtsov was assassinated on Putin's order. Also in the news: cats kill mice and there is no proof for all the others as well (Yevgeny Prigozhin was just unlucky probably).
Easter is holy, and they fell on the same day. It's obvious for all that the goal is to rally Christians for the election. Dare you not deny that and hide behind semantic considerations.
Oh $deity, there's another clueless anonymong..
The only denier here seems to be Biden and his fellow travellers. The story is about AI manipulation, or election interference. The story is that Biden issued a decree proclaiming March 31st as TV day which was a) pointless because it'd been March 31st for almost a decade and b) it's an election year, so obviously to rally LGBT voters. But once again, the real story is why he then denied doing this.
This is not a 'semantic consideration'. This is a matter of public record, both the proclamation from Biden, and then his apparent retraction, presumably after seeing the polls over the weekend. Why do you think Biden (or his handlers) might have acted this way?
Navalny obviously took over opposition leadership only once Nemtsov was assassinated on Putin's order.
Again you demonstrate how election, or psyops/political warfare works. Neither Nemtsov nor Navalny have ever been 'opposition leadership'. Neither were very credible opponents, ie had no real support within Russia, or parties capable of challenging Putin and forming a government. The actual opposition leadership in Russia comes from their Communist Party. It's akin to me declaring myself (or the Bbc declaring me) the opposition leadership in the UK. Currently, that's Starmer's job*. There's also no evidence that Putin ordered Nemtsov's assassination, or that Navalny was murdered, or even Prigozhin. Yet people like you seem convinced this is true because obvious propaganda has convinced you it's true.
And again, if it's ok for us to interfere in foreign elections, why shouldn't other nations do the same to us. It might not be fair, or sporting, but it's happened for centuries. All that's changed is we've created more opportunites and reasons for nations to do unto nation. Clinton's been ranting for years about Russians under her bed, but America's problem is too many people fall for her BS. Or her problem was not enough Americans fell for her BS last time she ran for President. So instead of just accepting that many Americans don't like or trust her, she blames Russian inteference for her loss despite an almost total lack of evidence.
*And I don't really want it.
"if it's ok for us to interfere in foreign elections, why shouldn't other nations do the same to us"
Very simply the virtue signalling progressive thinks that they are morally and intellectually superior to everyone and thinks that they know what is best and the rest of us are just too stupid to realise that what is being forced upon us is for our own good.
The reality being that these people are just classic midwits with a HUGE chip on their shoulder.
It is fun watching Biden get fact checked over and over and his team walk back claims he has made while being defended by the people who believe the '30,000 lies' claim.
> "if it's ok for us to interfere in foreign elections, why shouldn't other nations do the same to us"
Except for the fact that fair and free elections are not a thing in dictatorial regimes. By definition. So, your made up statement does not make any sense. There are simply no free elections to interfere with in Russia, Iran, North Korea or China. There are people struggling to reach democracy who need help to avoid being disappeared. Sorry to have to state the obvious, Diamond. We can see which side you're on. No surprise again.
"Meanwhile, Biden signs written decree declaring-"
The 12t gorilla in the room when it come to how gaga Sleepy Joe is comes from the White House edict that the Easter eggs have no overt religious ornamentation on them. WTF!? Somebody has lost track of what Easter is all about.
They could instead have a celebration of Soul Cake Tuesday Duck.
> White House edict that the Easter eggs have no overt religious ornamentation on them. WTF!? Somebody has lost track of what Easter is all about.
It might be news to you but Easter eggs usually don't bear religious signs. For instance, Fabergé's eggs don't have religious signs.
Also, FYI, Easter is a multi-faith event that stems from ancestral new year celebration (back in the days when years were starting around the Spring equinox, which was the case for most cultures in the Northern hemisphere). Hence such names as Pascha or Pesach in non Germanic nations. Our English name Easter, actually is non Christian: Eostre, being the Germanic goddess of Spring. Early Christian authorities in then "Englaland" mapped their own religious stories on the celebration but did not manage or dare change the established name (syncretism). The name itself is cognate with East (where the sun rises), Austria and Ostrogoth.
But of course, how would Trumpards know all this? It's not on Fox news, which is too busy stirring the pot about multi-gender toilet issues and other similar existential threats. So, here you go, you seem to be the one who "has lost track of what Easter is all about." Easter is for everybody, not just worshipers of death by crucifixion.
Bill Hicks had a great observation on Easter Eggs. Still very relevant today:
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...and just replace many of the assholes we have with AI.
These days it's like choosing between gouging out your eyes or having your limbs cut off.
Maybe we should let IT recruitment teams do the hiring.
Must be under 50 with 45 years shop floor experience and 75 years of charity work.
It's coming. Why else would big biz be interested in it, if they didn't think they could cut costs with it.
Local management are already plugging AI as a way for engineers to ask questions about our asset policies. Heaven forbid they read the policy or talk to the authors.
"Many AI's that have been released into the wild have degenerated into insult machines and resort to making stuff up in response to enquiries."
And as the usual political a...holes, AIs can also be controlled by unseen handlers.
BTW. is geminis anti white racism setting already corrected or does it still refuse to show a picture of a white family while "remembering" you that showing non white people is absolutely preferred ?
And does it still insist on showing non white people in that nice catholic uniform when you ask for pictures of a pope ?
AIs and politicians seem to have one point in common, both seem to be unable to seperate lies and made up gibberish from facts and treat both kinds of input equally, with prioritization of input from preferred "sources" resulting in output with a quality that matches both the input and the prioritization/manipulation.
I mean, it's kind of speaking the obvious, isn't it? "This will be the first truly awful year for AI deepfakes around the election..." is what we've all been saying for the last three months.
But now that Somebody Famous said it, it's suddenly worth noticing. :P
The outright funny deepfakes i saw from germanies politicians are considerably different from the original politicians.
In many cases, the deepfakes sound a lot more fluent and competent than the originals. There is even a new subdivision of deepfakes, called "deep truths" that are currently discussed. These are deepfakes which simulate a politician saying unconvenient facts.
So how about any politician being worse than his/her deepfake automatically has to resign ?
And for Susan Calvin devotees, remember a certain robot going for presidency ?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/democratic-operative-admits-commissioning-fake-biden-robocall-used-ai-rcna140402
"Steve Kramer, a veteran political consultant working for a rival candidate, acknowledged Sunday that he commissioned the robocall that impersonated President Joe Biden"
So after all the wailing and gnashing of teeth claiming it was Trump and/or Russia running this malarkey it turns out to be a veteran dem.
Spam emails ? Robocalls ? One of those interesting sms or messager cheats that sometimes befall "smart"phones ? Faked links/mails/messages from friends and acquaintances or a faked account looking like it ?
I am currently updating the call block list on our landline every week. Although this is germany where unrequested calls are illegal, the spamcenters dont give a flying frumpeldunk and the "watchdog" who should bite them is not very effective at doing so.
Normally its the usual "we have contacted you about insurance/energy provider/merchandise... but around summer last year theres the occasional "poll" concerning political opinions happening every now and then. Some of those are then leading to another sales pitch and only done to keep the call going but others seem to have a different intent.
All are blocked swiftly, of course.
Theoretically any unwanted advertisement call is prohibited but as already said, it happens anyway since the assigned "watchdog" simply doesnt do its job.
German political spamming/advertisement/campaigning is a bit different from what i read here concerning the US RoboSpam "culture" although not too much different when it comes to ignoring citizens wishes to not be annoyed.
The robocall/spamcenter ADnoyance is just picking up since a few years ago and is still manageable, with around 5-10 calls per month in high density times, if you do not invest in a phone system with blocklist function. "Robinson Liste", some useless option like the "do not track" fiction in certain browsers does exist but is also ignored.
There are internet lists with rankings and informations for unwanted numbers and its a simple mouseclick to search for any unknown number in my phone systems "called in absence" list and another mouseclick to move the culprits to the blocklist. Sadly, i still have to find something like adblocks blocklist auto updates that works with the internet lists.
When it comes to snail mail ADnoyance, however, you may of course put a big red sticker "Keine Werbung, keine Zeitung" on your mailbox, which should in theory avoid paperspam like prospects and pseudonewspapers being shoved in, but thats sadly theoretical.
One may, however (i have printed out a sticker collection) mark any unwanted advertisement with the holy words "Unverlangte Werbesendung, unfrei zurück an den Absender" and give it back to the postman. This will lead to a return to sender non-elvis style as the additional penalty fee for unpaid postage will stay with the advertiser when he/she/it gets the toilet paper back.
Political parties also ignore the "no spam" sticker on the mailbox regularly and whenever its campaign times again, i tend to add a second sticker, saying that i wont vote for a party that already shows disrespect for small wishes like not to be annoyed with campaign spam which means they quite likely will also ignore my more important wishes like not ruining my life.
"All are blocked swiftly, of course."
If I received a standard letter in the post from a politician, I might actually read it. Glossy jumbo post cards go immediately into the trash, they don't even get inside the house. Any call/text/email is immediately deleted and blocked. I didn't give them permission to contact me in anyway although sending a proper letter, being so old fashioned, could get through. It tells me they believe that what they have to say is so important that they are willing to spend some money.
Thats one way to handle it, i send the whole trash from any political party back with the aforementioned method which makes them pay double for their unwanted pestering.
I am not at all interested in words from any politician or party. Words mean nothing.
I do remember however every politician putting his career where his mouth is (Marco Bülow quitting his career in the SPD because the party would compromise the promise he made to his voters is the single exception in a Bundestag full of corrupt turncoats and liars) and any party keeping their word/campaign promise or at least not producing catastrophes that directly harm me and/or family,friends, people i like.
Should i ever want to talk to any politician, i can always ask how to contact them. Until then, they should leave me alone.
"Thats one way to handle it, i send the whole trash from any political party back with the aforementioned method which makes them pay double for their unwanted pestering."
I don't think that for the price paid, the post office will send certain classes of mail back or forward them either. First Class, definitely, but not spammy postcards under a bulk mailing permit.
And theres the difference in germany.
"Unverlangte Werbesendung, unfrei zurück an den Absender" (unrequested advertisement, return to sender at his expense) works for everything wich has the mandatory senders address on it, no matter if letter or postcard or political flyer and no matter wether the trash came into my mailbox via regular mail, some poor paperboy distributing the stuff for some cents per thousand or fairy godmother waving her spam wand.
It will be sent back and the cost will be deducted from the sender. Every post service must do so. Its just too bad too few people seem to know this or actually go for this little extra effort to send the trash back.
There also is no "bulk mailing permit" here, although newspapers and pseudonewspapers usually add a ton of flyers. It wouldnt make sense either because there are general regulations on anything sent, including the mandatory regulation that a senders address must be on every regular post card, letter, packet, whatever and even a political flyer must include the name and address of a person responsible for it so sending back the trash requires just a bit of time and the motivation to do so.
It will be sent back and the cost will be deducted from the sender. Every post service must do so. Its just too bad too few people seem to know this or actually go for this little extra effort to send the trash back.
I do this. Junkmail goes back into the post box. Germans just seem to be more efficient and doing things like this. I remember when Germany introduced recycling rules, so Germans promptly started stripping excess packaging from their shopping and letting the supermarkets deal with the rubbish. In the UK, I've just been given a whole new wheelie bin just for paper & cardboard, so our government probably encourages junkmail & packaging because it helps meet recycling targets.
>” Unverlangte Werbesendung, unfrei zurück an den Absender"
Just imagine imposing this on social media… charging the sender/reposter say 1 euro for each returned post….
Obviously, people would need to add and maintain a current payment card on their account, but it might help reduce some of the worst excesses of abusive posts..
I remember the first automated translators and their many hilarious issues when translating from a context sensitive language like english to a pretty much "one word for everything" language like german.
Bonus hilarity ensued when we abused one such software for translating to hell and back, with each iteration the text would get even more absurd.
Nowadays, however i have several german politicians on my list that spout such deranged nonsense that any AI could stand out as being unbelieveably logical and reasonable in comparision to the original.
She's been manipulating elections for decades, ever since 1992 when she and Bill talked Ross Perot into running as an independent. They knew he could not win, but could peel enough votes off from Bush to let them win the election.
This, incidentally, was why we had a President Trump. She and Bill talked Trump into running, expecting him to lose the primary so they could talk Trump into bankrolling his own campaign as an independent. They did not count on two things, however - first, of course, was Trump's America First message resonated so well against a lineup of globalists that he won the primary. And second, she did not realize just how hated she is in the US. Sure, California and New York loved her, but a lot of Democrats voted for Trump in the other states because they did not want to see Hillary Clinton in office. And a good thing - Clinton was using the Clinton Foundation as a pay to play payment processor, obvious when she lost the election and the "donors" all cancelled their payments. The minute Hillary Clinton became the Democratic nominee, the Republican nominee won the general election.
Moist, you have good points. Hillary is not a likable person. Enough people saw value in her being President or were well set against Mr Trump that she had a very good showing. Ronald Reagan, Arnold Swarzenegger and Jesse Ventura had far more personal appeal and that carried them through even if their political skills were lacking. Good old Sleepy Joe came off as a tolerable uncle, but his failings are getting worse all of the time and his Vice President can't present herself very well so she's not going to be a good candidate for the Oval Office after this next election. In the US, even the alternate parties are so far out of the main channel, they're not even on the river. I've looked at the party platforms and the candidate's statements and whackadoodle was the first word that came to mind. One would think that in a battle between Hillary and Donald or Joe and Donald that it should be easy enough for, say, the Libertarian party to put forward a strong contender in comparison. The Libertarian party is on the conservative side and I'm not quite sure of what other party could be classed as a bit left of center (as opposed to way way way left). Something has to shake up the system in the US or people that could do a good job leading the country are never going to put their hat in the ring.
> The Libertarian party is on the conservative side
Surprise, surprise. Libertarians (or is it contrarians?) are pathologically allergic to any authority (imposed on them, yet quite happy to impose their rules on others). That perfectly fits the conservative profile.
In most of its supporters, it all starts with a rebellious mindset. Yet, anybody who's studied a little bit of history knows that all rebellions end up as dictatorial regimes, that eventually rot and collapse. Democracy, the "worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried", is based on a balance of individual freedom and the acceptance of a bearable common rules needed to protect the res publica. That's still too much to ask for a certain fringe of the population. It's OK. They are just this: a fringe. Their dissatisfaction is of their own doing. So, it's nobody else's problem.
WikiLeaks Reveals DNC Elevated Trump to Help Clinton
'Guccifer' pleads guilty to hacking emails of Clinton, ex-presidents
Source: No 'coincidence' Romanian hacker Guccifer extradited amid Clinton probe
Or just bots but already seeing it on YouTube. You'll have vids posting about how awful trump is, rightly so, then other comments agreeing. Then other comments created in an attempt to get each other arguing from accounts that have a format
Dave-dyd23sh
Jane-dje36hs
Ted-iej37hs
And there will be several accounts in the comments with names like this. All clearly bots. And as always YouTube do fuck all about it. As much as they do with all the scam adverts on the platform.
I've given up on youtube comments (also because being google-anon on Brave will get rid of the unbearable ads), but before that, I noticed that moderation (probably outsourced to some low cost moderation centre in Africa or India) was heavily anti-west. These days, each time I come across news about Google, it's about dismal financial results and another wave of layoffs - karma's talking.
Fake news stories and doctored pictures weren't new in 2016. They weren't new even in 1916 (See WW1) or 1816 (Monroe defeated Federalist Party candidate Rufus King)
I don't blame Clinton for the stupidity and ignorance of her supporters, but cripes, this is the outcome of the effort the American education system puts into 'civics' ?
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