Pentagon launches nuke-spotting satellites amid Russian space bomb rumors

Last night's launch of six Pentagon missile-detection satellites was well timed as fears mount that Russia is considering putting nuclear weapons into space. The US Department of Defense confirmed its payload included two satellites for the Missile Defense Agency's (MDA) Hypersonic and Ballistic Tracking Space Sensor (HBTSS), …

[45RPM]

It’s all going a bit doctor strangelove, and the worrying thing is that so many people in countries lucky enough to enjoy a free vote seem to think that they’d be better off throwing their vote away and going the way of Russia, North Korea, China et al.

But it seems to me (and I suspect this comment might start a bit of a fracas on el reg) that the problem is extremism, and largely right wing extremism at that. China claims to be left wing, as does North Korea - but they seem to be nothing more that absolute monarchies playing dress up as socialist republics. A small upper class get the lions share of the loot and the rest, sadly, starve. Trump, Farage et al - nothing would please them all than abandoning democracy and watching the world burn. What I don’t understand is how they’ve persuaded so many people to support their insane plan.

Let’s hope that Biden wins the next election. Let’s hope that the tories (or, worse, Reform) don’t. If they do then all is lost.

[elsergiovolador]

China claims to be left wing, as does North Korea - but they seem to be nothing more that absolute monarchies playing dress up as socialist republics.

To be fair, this happens in any political system, because even the best political system someone could come up with is going to fall apart because of human factor.

If I can be cynical, both socialism and capitalism in reality are the same and the poorest are always losing. One system rewards party members, creates a class of people who run everything and use state purse as their own bank account, the other creates a class of people who run everything and use money from their own bank account that come from public purse. One have state enterprise and people enriching themselves, the other has private enterprise and people enriching themselves.

[45RPM]

Yeah. I’m a bit of a woolly liberal myself. I believe in strong capitalism paying for a socialist society (healthcare, schooling, social services, police, fire etc) through strong taxation.

[elsergiovolador]

As it should be. Problem is that those who have capital get their pawn politicians elected to ensure they don't pay tax and any strong taxation falls on people who work hardest and are simply too tired to fight back or protest. This results in gradual reduction of productivity and everyone loses (apart from the rich).

Good political system also needs good policing of corruption, strict enforcement and over the top penalties that perpetrators couldn't wriggle out of.

Rot starts when someone in charge thinks they can make some money on the side using the power entrusted to them.

[45RPM]

Yes! Exactly this. Thumbs up. I'd give you two, but Reg won't let me.

[JimmoMoyya]

"socialist society (healthcare, schooling, social services, police, fire etc) through strong taxation."

None of those things are "socialist". Strange you believe in something you don't understand? Public-funded services in a capitalist economy are not socialism.

[45RPM]

Actually, yes. These are socialist services. I realise that you might not like the word socialist, but I'm afraid I don't have the ability to redefine words for you. Personally, I have no problem with either Socialism or Capitalism - as long as they balance each other.

any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property

b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

So, I am going with definition b of socialism here. If the means of production (and distribution) is controlled by the state then it is by definition socialist. In my view this is a good thing for services which need to be protected so that they can be freely accessed by all (healthcare, education, libraries, unemployment benefit, policing, fire service, postal service etc) or where competition isn't possible (provision of water, gas or electricity to an area (because the infrastructure is common, and hence any change that you might think you are making to your provider is just an illusion - you may be changing a financial service, but the utility is still delivered in the same way), railway (and in this case you can't even change the financial arrangement).

On the other hand, public ownership of production and distribution where competition is desirable and particularly where the service doesn't need to be protected is insane. Go down that route and you end up making rubbish - like Trabants and Lada, Elektronikas and Agats. You end up with British Leyland and the NEB. Let's not go there again.

There is a grey area of course where it might desirable to have both socialist and capitalist services. For example publicly and privately provided education, public and private healthcare, public and private postal services.

[Anonymous Coward]

Boring elsergiovolador propaganda.

> If I can be cynical, both socialism and capitalism in reality are the same

Here we go again. When you can't deny Communism leads to autocratic regimes that oppress people, the fallback disinformation strategy is false equivalence.

In practice freedom is indivisible. Freedom of investment, freedom of entrepreneurship, and freedom of vote go hand in hand. Lack of political freedom permits lack of accountability and then, the only social ladder is through a mafia-like Communist party. This is what one witnessed in USSR and China. And that leads nowhere as the crumbling of both economies have shown. In our democracies, the social ladder is free: education, entrepreneurship and venture capital are powerful generators of wealth and fair reward. Compare S&P 500 to CSI 300, if you need supporting data.

[Anonymous Coward]

260 million people, and Trump & Biden are the best candidates the US can find.Sad.

The really sad thing is that if Trump had won last time, we'd be looking forward to getting rid of him for good by now.

[cyberdemon]

If trump had won last time, we might not look forward to anything anymore. WWIII might have proceeded on schedule.

Kriegsminister gibt nicht mehr..

[Jaybus]

260 million? You are over 70 million short, even not counting illegal immigrants.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let’s hope that Biden wins the next election.

Let's hope a guy who even big hitters in the Democrat party are openly admitting is senile, wins the next election?

Sure, I get it you don't want to see a second Trump presidency, but cheering for a second Biden term? Really?

Geopolitically, the Biden presidency has been a complete disaster.

Let me remind you of some of the highlights.

- The botched pull out of Afghanistan leading to the Taliban retaking the country

- The proxy war against Russia that's rapidly becoming a debacle

- China emboldened to threaten Taiwan after seeing how hapless the West is becoming militarily

- The Middle East on fire with Iran in the ascendancy and the US backed by the rest of the West looking powerless against militant groups such as the Houthis

- A US-Mexico border that's so porous 10,000 illegal immigrants cross per day

The world is in a far more dangerous position now than 4 years ago and many would suggest it's largely because there's a guy who should be in an old folks home leading the free world.

[Gary Stewart]

- The botched pull out of Afghanistan leading to the Taliban retaking the country

Negotiated and signed by the Trump administration without any consultation with the Afghan government. As a bonus it included the release of 5000 Taliban fighters which happened during the Trump administration.

- The proxy war against Russia that's rapidly becoming a debacle

There is no proxy in this war. The Russians invaded Ukraine. However the west, not just the US was negligent in not sending the weapons they really needed when they needed them. I still don't understand why they took Putin's nuclear threat seriously.

- A US-Mexico border that's so porous 10,000 illegal immigrants cross per day

This has been a problem since the 1980s. Reagan pardoned 3,000,000 immigrants The huge influx of migrants is a world wide problem. I would like to see better control of the US border but apparently the Republicans in congress would rather keep it as an election issue rather than make a real effort to solve it.

I lived through the cold war (and even did "duck and cover" in school), the Cuban missile crises, Vietnam, the overthrow of the Iranian government, beginning of the Afghan and Iraq wars (,,,). The world has mostly been a very dangerous place for my entire life.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no proxy in this war. The Russians invaded Ukraine. However the west, not just the US was negligent in not sending the weapons they really needed when they needed them. I still don't understand why they took Putin's nuclear threat seriously.

Of course it's a proxy war. The Western alliance prevented the Ukrainians from signing a negotiated settlement in Istanbul (March 2022) because they thought it would be a good opportunity to weaken Russia. Before you accuse me being a Putin apologist, this was confirmed by, among others, members of the Ukrainian delegation and the Israeli PM Naftali Bennett.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O10svZJ2Fps

However, that strategy was always destined to fail, as Obama correctly identified in 2016...

"The fact is that Ukraine, which is a non-NATO country, is going to be vulnerable to military domination by Russia no matter what we do,"

https://www.rferl.org/a/obama-ukraine-vulnerable-russian-military-domination/27603145.html

[Casca]

Ah, vatnik and maga. Good work

[Jellied Eel]

Negotiated and signed by the Trump administration without any consultation with the Afghan government. As a bonus it included the release of 5000 Taliban fighters which happened during the Trump administration.

Err.. Right. So the Doha Agreement didn't happen-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Taliban_deal

The composition of the Afghan government negotiating team was not determined, because the results of the 2019 Afghan presidential election were disputed. The deal required the Afghan government to release 5,000 Taliban prisoners by the start of the talks, in a prisoner exchange for 1,000 government soldiers held by the Taliban.

So you're vaguely right about 'Afghan Government' but mostly because in 2020, we weren't entirely sure who they were. But Afghanis were certainly involved in the peace negotiations, it resulted in a reasonably solid ceasefire and a phased withdrawl. Then along came Biden, who went "Agreement? What Agreement?" and decided to pull out early. If only his parents had done the same thing. But the news came as a bit of a shock to the US's NATO 'allies', our Afghan allies and after 20yrs and over $1tn spent 'fighting the Taliban', the Taliban took power in around a week following Biden's evacuation.

[Anonymous Coward]

Gross

> If only his parents had done the same thing.

Adding vulgarity to stupidity. No further comment.

[JimmoMoyya]

"The world is in a far more dangerous position now than 4 years ago and many would suggest it's largely because there's a guy who should be in an old folks home leading the free world."

Biden is not the "leader of the free world" and America can barely be considered part of the free-world at this point.

[Casca]

Spot the maga moron

[Anonymous Coward]

China claims to be left wing, as does North Korea - but they seem to be nothing more that absolute monarchies playing dress up as socialist republics.

Hate to break it to you, but left wing regimes throughout history have led to more starvation, misery and death than right wing ones by at least one order of magnitude, if not two.

[45RPM]

Well that’s certainly a popular trope for the far right press and blow hards, and I’m not going to claim that the communist parties of China, Russia and North Korea are innocent, but I’m not certain it will stand up even to cursory research. Ah yes…

Big points to your argument first. The low ball estimate says 15 million, but the high estimate says 55 mill. Communist Maos China (although I’m not sure I can see any truly socialist left wing policies - it looks a bit feudal monarchy to me)

Next Worst famine - China, but under the Chinese monarchy - definitely not left wing.

1906-1907, 25 million dead

Coming in to third place, with 19 million fatalities, the famine in the British Empire of the mid 19C century. Pretty sure that the British empire didn’t have socialist leanings at that time.

Bunch of 6 famines between the 14th and 18th centuries. All monarchies. Combined death toll - 50 million.

Russia famine, 1921, ditto my comments about communist China, 5 million dead. Then again, 1932-33, 7 million dead. That’s 12 million in total.

Chinese famine 1938, again not Communist, 10 million dead.

You can look it up for yourself. Here. I’ll start you off

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

But it doesn’t support your argument that left wing governments cause famines. What it does support is the argument that undemocratic governments act like venal little shits and only care for the well being of the ruling class.

[Anonymous Coward]

Communist Maos China (although I’m not sure I can see any truly socialist left wing policies - it looks a bit feudal monarchy to me)

Ah, I see that we're dealing with a member of the "that wasn't proper Communism, it would be different if I was in charge" crowd.

Have a nice day!

[45RPM]

Communism be damned! That’s a horrible shit show. But communism and socialism are two different animals. And neither is much like a society based on both capitalism and socialism - the welfare state. Which would be my preferred choice.

As for me being in charge - ah no. On that I suspect we can find common ground. I’d make a horrible job of it.

[JimmoMoyya]

"Let’s hope that Biden wins the next election. Let’s hope that the tories (or, worse, Reform) don’t. If they do then all is lost."

This comment makes no sense. Biden and the US Democrats are FURTHER right-wing by British political standards and compared to the tories as well.

You seem to be getting your political spectrums mixed up.

[45RPM]

So, and in the interests of giving you the benefit of the doubt here, who would you propose as a better alternative? Are you about to open your mouth and remove all doubt? Or stay silent, and let us all form our own thoughts about what you might be?

[Anonymous Coward]

Contrast the differences between the two most extreme governments to have ever existed on this planet. Stalin's Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. The far right and far left don't end up looking much different.

There isn't (much) of a Stalinist option on the ballot paper at the moment, but it's only a matter of time. Whereas the far right has made inroads into the centre including some incredibly dumb policies and Liz the Lettuce.

The problem is the failings of the centre are now so thorough that selling an alternative is appealing to prospective voters. I utterly abhor Farage and what he represents, yet; he puts electoral reform on the agenda; something I am a huge advocate for. Labour's "largely-do-nothing" approach is just inviting a continuation of current problems. Corbyn, love or hate did offer something different to "the uniparty", and suffered the biggest defeat in recent history despite getting large numbers of votes. The one or two parties that that are willing to talk solutions are basically irrelevant in general elections because first past the post. What a conundrum.

20 years ago buying a home was within the remit of most families. Now, there's very real prospect of 30, 40, 50% of voters being below the breadline let alone buying property. Food bank use is through the roof. The rise in these problems is inexorably linked to the uber-wealthy getting wealthier at the expense of everyone else. Nowhere else was this more strongly highlighted than by Covid. The debts we're running up are double sided, someone IS profiting off them; and it's not us.

Generation rent have "no chance" outside of inheritance.

There is also the not so insignificant fact that our trade balance is, and has been negative for a decade+ now. How do we rebalance that? Services? We shot our services industry in the foot by voting Brexit and cutting off the largest free market in the world for them.

Goods? British manufacturing is expensive and therefore only works in specialised sectors.

And primary production we have long since eaten up most of our worthwhile reserves. Things that HELP with trade balance e.g. producing our own energy from renewables and nukes are railed at on all sides. Put our minds and effort to it and we could be Europe's power plant; using the exports to redress the trade balance problems.

I can't help but think the world is heading for War, which we're woefully prepared for too; which would not be the first time we have banked on peace dividend too heavily.

Basically Britain is screwed without a serious overhaul, and I totally see why the extreme parties are on the rise. The centre desperately needs to come up with that overhaul.

[druck]

Was with you right up to the last line when you attempt to lump in the Tories who are way to the left of even the Democrats with the insanity of Trump.

[bombastic bob]

your perception of US politics is bass-ackwards

In truth, it is the LEFT who want to control everything, along with the right-wing "Uni-party" members of the GOP, aka "RINOS".

MAGA is exact opposite, seeks LESS government control, MORE freedom [particularly to individual states[, LOWER taxes, LESS regulation, UNBIASED law enforcement, TRUE justice reform (not woke-ism, race-based "equity" nonsense, etc.] and seeks to DO AWAY with those things that MOST people understand are COMPLETELY unfair [like DEI, tic-the-box quotas, 2 tier justice system, abuse of political power including the DOJ and IRS, and monolithic one-size-fits-all top-down control from DC]. MAGA means you aren't punished or canceled for having wrong thoughts or wrong speech. It means you can be tolerant without having to EMBRACE every possible bizarre lifestyle, because everyone ELSE wants freedom, too, INCLUDING the freedom to DISAGREE or DISLIKE something. MAGA is like conservative libertarianism, which is NOT activism, but the recognition that everyone wants to do their own thing and should be able to, as long as it's not disturbing, hurting, or seriously bothering anybody else.

I do not know how or where the opposite perception came from, but it is about as wrong as calling communism "freedom".

NOTE: MY definition of MAGA and Tea Party are what I just described. If that turns out to be NOT what Trump and other MAGA Republicans actually stand for, I'd abandon them faster than an illegal alien anchor baby at an orphanage on the OTHER side or the U.S. border. But I believe my perception is the correct one.

As for "Nukes in Space" the article made my point: "it would put Russia at odds with the 1967 Outer Space Treaty, which states that signatories 'shall not place nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction in orbit.'"

Conveniently the trial balloon scaring people about Russia (again) is being floated in an election year.

[elsergiovolador]

Optics

One is clear - it's much better to be turned into glass in split second, than to experience the so called "Russian world" first hand.

Jokes aside. That's what appeasement and looking at Russia through Western lens (as something rational and able to reason with) achieves.

Russia only respects and understand strength.

I am sure they are having a great laugh in Kremlin at all the pussyfooting in the West.

Their vision of peace is when we are all dead and they have the world for themselves.

[Boris the Cockroach]

Re: Optics

Sadly for the russians, after turning the east coast of the US and its mid west missile silos into glass, they'll have to deal with whatever the subs can launch (24 trident D5 missiles from 4 US subs, and whatever the French and British have on patrol)

So looking at anywhere from 100 to 200 odd inbound nukes(with decoys), so MAD still lives on.

[JimmoMoyya]

Re: Optics

" (24 trident D5 missiles from 4 US subs, and whatever the French and British have on patrol)"

The British have 4 Vanguard-Class. Lol, the French?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Optics

The French have 6 Redoutable and 4 Triopmphant class SSBNs. They take deterence quite seriously.

[bombastic bob]

Re: Optics

I've worked with a few Russian citizens back in the day, and I do not think it is this way.

Putin is a BAD ACTOR on the world stage, and YES he views appeasement as weakness, but it is STILL possible to make agreements with him that benefit both Russia and the west. You need strong and honest leadership for this, NOT 'WEF puppets' doing their masters' bidding.

The Tucker Carlson interview with Putin is an interesting view, though over 2 hrs in length.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Optics

The Tucker Carlson interview with Putin is an interesting view, though over 2 hrs in length.

Another of his videos from Moscow was also interesting. Not the one about how clean & tidy it was compared to say, LA, SF, NYC or any other Democrat run city. But he went to a supermarket and compared the prices of a typical basket of goods. Estimated to cost $400 in US, only $100 in Russia. How can this be?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Optics

Offhand, I'd guess that the median income there is 1/4 what it is in the US. Compare to rural Honduras - $100 is enough to feed a family of 4 for a month, but it can take almost a month to earn that!

[Anonymous Coward]

Who will save us from this Russian commie boogeyman /s

Enough with the neocon cyberBS /s

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Who will save us from this Russian commie boogeyman /s

I fully agree!

[Gary Stewart]

So, this is new?

The ability of nuclear weapons to take out satellites has been know since the dawn of the space age. Parking one in orbit is one way to do it. Launching one from the ground or an airplane are a couple of others. They might take a bit longer but it will get the job done. Why is this just now important (rhetorical) ?

[bombastic bob]

Re: So, this is new?

Why is this just now important (rhetorical) ?

Election year, and Demo[n,c][R,r]ats are running out of things to manipulate voters with.

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty sure...

...if Russia had any military capabilities left, they wouldn't be stuck in Ukraine.

Other than inheriting the USSR's stockpile, they don't actually have much going for them. The population size of France and Germany, the GDP of Greece.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Pretty sure...

>> ...if Russia had any military capabilities left, they wouldn't be stuck in Ukraine.

> Other than inheriting the USSR's stockpile, they don't actually have much going for them. The population size of France and Germany, the GDP of Greece.

But but but Putin's Russia is an immanent threat to Western Europe !!!

Get with the program !

[MiguelC]

Re: Pretty sure...

No need making up facts, GDP of Russia is around 8x Greece's (different estimates are available)

Although per capita it's quite dire, but only 2/3 of the Greek estimates

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Pretty sure...

You're so far off the mark, it's not even funny.

"Before the country invaded Ukraine, a senior Western defense official told The Times that Russia could make 100 tanks a year; now they're averaging 200.

Western officials told the outlet that Russia is on track to manufacture two million artillery shells a year, which is twice as many as Western intelligence originally estimated it could make before the war.

Russia, in fact, is now producing more ammunition than the US and Europe, with one senior Estonian defense ministry official telling The Times that Russia's current production is seven times that of the West."

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-ammunition-manufacturing-ukraine-west-officials-2023-9?r=US&IR=T

You, like so many others, have failed to grasp the fact that Russia's strategy is one of attrition. Their aim is to completely degrade Ukraine's military to the point it no longer represent a threat and with their overwhelming advantage in terms of manpower, air superiority and heavy artillery they're well on the way to achieving this objective.

GDP figures are largely irrelevant when it comes to waging war. You can have as much money as you like, but without the necessary skilled labour, factories and raw materials, you'll struggle to ramp up munition stocks. Western just-in-time production techniques are wholly unsuited to this game, hence the shortfalls that are rapidly becoming apparent.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Pretty sure...

GDP figures are largely irrelevant when it comes to waging war.

In some ways, they can be. Russia's defence spending is a small fraction of the US, let alone NATO. Trump caused a bit of a fuss by demanding NATO members spend 2% of GDP on defence, but the problem is we're arguably spending on the wrong things. This conflict has made that abundantly clear. Ok, so if it was a true NATO vs Russia conflict, the outcome would probably have been different with NATO probably gaining air superiority & supremacy pretty quickly. Given Russia's air defences, that probably would have been costly however. Ukraine (and the West) spent a lot of money re-arming and re-training Ukraine's armed forces following the mauling it took during the early stages of Ukraine's civil war. Where seperatist/Russian force used pretty much exactly the same tactics they're using now. Probe, exploit, 'cauldron', and eliminate. We don't seem to have learned enough from those lessons.

You can have as much money as you like, but without the necessary skilled labour, factories and raw materials, you'll struggle to ramp up munition stocks. Western just-in-time production techniques are wholly unsuited to this game, hence the shortfalls that are rapidly becoming apparent.

Yep. Russia still has much of it's defence industry nationalised. If it wants the capacity to produce 2m shells a year, it can build to that capacity and mothball until it's needed. It might not be the most efficient use of capital, but then neither is expecting private arms suppliers to build and maintain that capacity. I think there was also a serious lack of joined up thinking and optimism bias. Russia would be quickly defeated by our 'shock and awe' sanctions and run out of ammo in only a few months. Instead that's us, and it's mostly self-inflicted. We probably need a lot of this stuff-

C4H8N8O8

But our politicians sanctioned main suppliers, like.. er.. Russia and then China, and are also in the process of banning most of the feedstocks we'd need to produce explosives. Carbon and nitrogen are bad, except when they're rather handy for making things go <boom>. And then of course there's our energy costs.

But most of this is just sabre ratling and distractions around the imminent fall of Avdiivka. Variously an insignificant and unimportant location, or like Bahkmut, one of Ukraine's impregnable fortress cities. Politicians are blaming each other, ie it's those Republican's fault that the city will fall. But the money wouldn't have helped because Ukraine needed ammunition, which we currently can't supply. Plus Ukraine can't supply (or evacuate) the city now because it's encircled and Russia has had fire control over most of the supply routes for weeks now.

It's much the same with the nuke-FUD. It's just another distraction because the potential of detonating a nuke in space has been known since at least the '60s. If Russia wanted to put a warhead, or warheads in space, it can easily do this.. Or it probably wouldn't need to because it could probably just use air, ground or ship/sub launched missiles anyway. Downside to not slapping one on a 'satellite' launch is a ground launch would have much the same profile as an ICBM launch, and the world has itchy trigger fingers right now.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Jellied Eel

Great post that describes the whole sorry saga accurately.

Up voted!

[Anonymous Coward]

CHECK YOUR SYNTAX/SPELL/WHATEVER CHECKER

<quote>objects beyond line-of-site</quote>

Huh? is that 'murrican speling?

[bombastic bob]

Re: CHECK YOUR SYNTAX/SPELL/WHATEVER CHECKER

site = location

so, no.

"line-of-sight" even here in the USA

[Jellied Eel]

Cold War 2.0: Someone got Epsteined

Meanwhile, in other news a wonderful new conspiracy theory has been created, just in time for Russian elections, the Munich Security Conference, the continued pressure to give $60bn to the most corrupt country in Europe and to distract people from the fall of Avdiivka-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-68297972

I made my Star Wars Chewbacca suit from 45 bags of hair extensions

No, wait, I mean today's other top story-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68315943

Russia's most significant opposition leader for the past decade, Alexei Navalny, has died in an Arctic Circle jail, the prison service has said.

President Vladimir Putin's most vociferous critic, he was serving 19 years on extremism charges that were widely seen as politically motivated.

Sounds like Navalny might have been Russia's equivalent to Trump I guess. But Navalny barely had time to reach ambient temperature before all the usual suspects started piling on.

Yulia Navalnaya took to the stage at the Munich Security conference on the verge of tears, with a warning that the news had only come from unreliable state sources.

I don't think she was referring to the UK or US governments who already announced that The Putin was responsible for this 'brutal murder' and the family apparently only got official confirmation of his death today. Apparently he collapsed and died while walking around the prison, there has been no autopsy, and the cause of death is currently unknown. But don't ask why Yulia was at the conference, the remarkably convenient timing, or the almost complete lack of facts around his death.

Then the Bbc goes fulll retard-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68323362

How Russian state media are spinning Alexei Navalny death

On state TV channels, the media outlets with the biggest audiences in Russia, there has been minimal coverage of Navalny's death, and the first reports were largely slow to come and perfunctory.

Which is classic projection. How is the British state media spinning Navalny's death? Answer to that one is all over the Western MSM's front pages. Why Russian media isn't talking about it is probably due to Navalny actually being pretty much a political nobody inside Russia, who never really had any chance of winning an election. So inside Russia, most people would probably be going "Who?" and the most newsworthy aspect is probably trying to figure out our reaction to this news.

But the narrative appears to be that because a prisoner died in a Russian prisoner, The Putin must be personally responsible. Or at least the state. And there must be a full and impartial investigation into this outrage. But then this happened only a few weeks ago-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_Lira#Death

On January 12, 2024, Gonzalo Lira Sr., Lira's father, reported that his son had died in a Ukrainian prison at the age of 55. This was confirmed by the United States Department of State and Chile's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. His cause of death was reported to be pneumonia

Lira was an American Journalist who claimed to have been tortured whilst in Ukrainian custody. His death went largely unreported in the West and there were no strident demands for an investigation into the death of a US citizen whilst under Ukraine's care.

[Anonymous Coward]

John McCain, please come back.

> "Meanwhile, in other news a wonderful new conspiracy theory has been created, just in time for Russian elections, the Munich Security Conference, the continued pressure to give $60bn to the most corrupt country in Europe and to distract people from the fall of Avdiivka-"

Anybody needed another proof that the MAGAs are obstructing Ukraine aid package? It's there. Courtesy our own Jellied Eel (aka Caviar Beluga).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: John McCain, please come back.

Anybody needed another proof that the MAGAs are obstructing Ukraine aid package?

10% for the big guy?

[Jellied Eel]

Re: John McCain, please come back.

Anybody needed another proof that the MAGAs are obstructing Ukraine aid package?

Perhaps for good reasons?

The West: We need a distraction!

Budanov: Hold my beer!

Arranging a death inside a Russian prison is probably not that difficult. Yet world+dog has instantly jumped to the conclusion that The Putin did it. Despite there being zero upside and a lot of obvious downsides to making that happen. Inside Russia, Navalny was pretty much irrelevant, but martyring him obviously serves a political purpose. An American citizen, journalist and political activist dies in a Ukrainian jail, and the West ignores it.

Meanwhile, there's been a death in custody. Nobody knows how or why, but the conspiracy theories are flying. The DM's reporting he died in a 'squalid prison cell', yet there's no evidence that it was any more squalid than the ones Dems are keeping warm for Trump. The family are demanding the return of the body, but the body is currently evidence. Russia may conduct an autopsy and inquest to determine the cause of death, but nobody will believe the results. Justice would suggest holding an independent/neutral autopsy and inquest to establish the cause of death. If he was poisoned, it won't determine who did it, but it might show natural causes, reaction to covid vaccine etc etc. He appeared on a court video link looking hale, hearty and well cared for, yet dead the next day.

How did this happen? If it shows foul play, then obviously it gets political. If it was natural causes, it's just unfortunate and very unfortunate timing. Yet the side that supposedly champions truth, justice and democracy has already pre-judged the case. Or they already know he was murdered and are just trying to pin it on someone who gains no benefit from the crime.

[Anonymous Coward]

QAnon brought to you by JE

tl;dr

Navalny is dead => Putin held responsible => Jellied Eel to the rescue.

Reasoning: "It can be Putin because he knew he would be suspected, so he was doing everything to avoid such an unfortunate event. So it must be the Ukrainians. Probably Budanov". Hilarious if it were not outrageous.

> it might show natural causes, reaction to covid vaccine

Sidenote: notorious antivax MAGA JE even manages to inject a hint at a possible cause: the evil covid vaccine. It all makes sense, now. Doesn't it?

One can only admire the artfulness in conspiracy theory building. Well done JE. Masterclass!

[Jellied Eel]

Re: QAnon brought to you by JE

One can only admire the artfulness in conspiracy theory building. Well done JE. Masterclass!

Currently the conspiracy theory is built. Most of the Western media were blaming The Putin even before the body cooled. Where is the evidence? Aren't we the ones supposed to be champions of truth, justice or even 'International Rules Based Order'?

If heads of state are automatically accountable and culpable for every death in custody, where was the outcry over the death of Gonzalo Lira, an American citzen, journalist and political activist?

Of course the bastion of truthiness and responsible journalism is taking the conspiracy theories even further-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68316979

Navalny's team says Russian authorities are 'hiding' his body

She has said: "We know for sure that it wasn’t just a death, it was a murder... She has explained that according to Russian laws, the body of an inmate should be given to relatives within two days after the death.

She doesn't know for sure it was a murder. Nobody does. Any time there's an unexplained death in custody, there needs to be an investigation to determine how it ended up that way. Currently, the body is evidence of a possible crime. If the body is turned over and cremated, that evidence is obviously destroyed. And obviously given the intensity of the media and political coverage, the precise cause of death is a rather large matter of public interest.

It may also be a matter of public embarassment given our 'trusted' media and politicians have already decided he was murdered. Again, this isn't the way justice is supposed to work, and it's unsuprising trust in both media and politicians is in steep decline when they come out with idiotic garbage like this.

It's also amazing and depressing how many useful idiots seem to be blindly swallowing the official misinformation..

[Anonymous Coward]

Antipalomachy the Russian way

More "unfair" accusations...

Alexander Litvinenko

Yevgeny Prigozhin

Boris Nemtsov

Anna Politkovskaya

Boris Berezovsky

Badri Patarkatsishvili

Nikolai Glushkov

Yuri Golubev

Zelimkhan Khangoshvili

Mikhail Lesin

Kirill Stremousov

Yuri Shchekochikhin

Alexander Perepilichnyy

Sergei Magnitsky

Gennady Lopyrev

Pyotr Kucherenko

Pavel Antov

Vladimir Budanov

Alexander Buzakov

Anatoly Gerashchenko

Ravil Maganov

Natalia Estemirova

Paul Klebnikov

Denis Voronenkov

Alexander Subbotin

Paul Klebnikov

Sergei Yushenkov

etc...

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Antipalomachy the Russian way

How curious. Antipalomachy isn't a word I'm familiar with, but the top search results are for-

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/21/pavlo-lapshyn-ukrainian-student-terrorist

One of the most serious rightwing terror campaigns to strike Britain began, in a way, by chance.

Pavlo Lapshyn came to the UK on 24 April. Five days later the 25-year-old Ukrainian student, described by friends as shy and polite, armed himself with a knife and wandered the streets of the Small Heath area of Birmingham

Oddly, the articles don't contain the word either. But not sure if drawing more attention to Ukraine's white supremacy problem is the result you intended.

But I digress. Where is the evidence Navalny was murdered? Aren't we supposed to rely on evidence, not speculation, or whataboutery? Maybe I should throw in a Seth Rich, or again ask why the death of Navalny is being treated so differently to the death of Gonzalo Lira?

[Anonymous Coward]

Classical linguistics 101

Ever been told that search results are tailored to each individual profile? Everybody get different results depending on their previous interactions with the search engine provider. Therefore, your personalized result reveals a tendency to research information confirming your anti-Ukrainian bias (was für eine Überraschung :-).

Regarding the antipalomachy neologism. You can look up similar words such as amazonomachy, tauromachy, theomachy... and then lookup the ancient Greek word ἀντίπαλος. As you can see the -machy suffix is still quite productive in modern indo-european languages. If we don't agree, we'll have a logomachy. When you argue against various ACs, you're having a sciomachy. Etc.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Classical linguistics 101

Therefore, your personalized result reveals a tendency to research information confirming your anti-Ukrainian bias

Or perhaps my research into the Ukraine fiasco just shows I'm better informed.

If we don't agree, we'll have a logomachy

Yes, well, your way with words does make you rather distinctive, and far less 'anonymous'. So anyway, any evidence of a murder yet? So far, one theory is a thromboembelism. Normally that would require an autoposy, but in the interests of justice, it seems as though we're abolishing those. But hence my mention of vaccines.. they're commonly referred to as 'clot shots', aren't they? There's also some other interesting speculation that Navalny has/had no pre-existing medical conditions. When he was allegedly poisoned previously, there was speculation he may have been diabetic. Clots are sometimes a symptom of that.

But to your tiny mind, it was obviously Putin..

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Classical linguistics 101

> So anyway, any evidence of a murder yet? So far, one theory is a thromboembelism.

I'm guessing when you were a toddler, you were obstinately trying to slide the cube down the round hole of your blocks shape sorter toy. Am I wrong?

Body release will be delayed. Last time Navalny was poisoned, the Russian authorities thought they had waited long enough for the poison residues to degrade before releasing him to the German doctors who eventually saved him. However, various OPCW labs could still independently prove the poisoning agent as a hitherto unknow variant of Novichok (acetylcholinesterase inhibitor poisoning is well understood and classified because of insecticides accidental absorption). No easy-to-trace, long-lasting polonium tea involved this time. But still busted. Did you also suspect "thromboembelism" last time as well? Just curious.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Classical linguistics 101

a hitherto unknow variant of Novichok (acetylcholinesterase inhibitor poisoning is well understood and classified because of insecticides accidental absorption).

Oh dear.. so an 'unknow' variant, which was obviously produced exclusively by Russia. Not any other chemistry lab looking for an ultra-deadly poison that thus far has only managed to kill 1 person, and that was after a massive direct dose. Also not sure where you're trying to go with 'well understood but classified'. Sure, organophosphates and accidental poisonings are well understood because of the risk of exposure to widely used insecticides and pesticides. So you think something that's a common risk and 'well understood' is somehow classified? They're also well understood because they're often persistent, as are metabolites, and the ACHE going away is a characteristic of this type of poisoning.

And now labs know what to look for, it's easier to detect. And sadly now labs know what it looks like, more people also know how to synthesise it.

But it's back to justice. An autopsy should show the cause of death. It won't tell you whodunnit. We don't know this. Despite the lack of evidence, you seem convinced it must have been The Putin. That there's no motive, and there's plenty of motive for others to martyr Navalny, you're convinced because our 'leaders' have said it, thus it must be true. Currently there is no evidence he was murdered.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Classical linguistics 101

Classified: divided into classes or placed in a class (classified ads are not top secret ads).

> It won't tell you whodunnit.

My guess is that one of the conditions to meet would be to have access to the prisoner. Remember that occurred in possibly the worst gulag penitentiary in Russia? Do you still have the,,, hum... nerve(!) to try to spread doubt about the responsibilities of yet another political assassination?

"It was Lenin who ordered the creation of a secret service poisons factory, known variously as the Special Room, Scientific Research Institute No 2, Lab X and later the Kamera (Chamber). By the 1940s, its scientists were testing out deadly poisons on prisoners from the gulags, experimenting to find a tasteless and odourless lethal chemical that could not be detected after death. Numerous former Russian intelligence officers have detailed how first the secret police, and later the KGB and FSB (Federal Security Bureau), used poison to eliminate opposition figures and foreign spies." (source).

In the case of Navalny's 2020 previous assassination attempt, we do even have the candid confirmation from one of the Russian FSB agents himself.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Classical linguistics 101

Classified: divided into classes or placed in a class (classified ads are not top secret ads).

Context: noun

the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect: You have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.

the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc.

Most of the details around Navalny's alleged poisoning are classified. Like the medical details. But this is probably why you said it was a previously unknown variant of Novichok give it didn't affect Navalny in the same way it affected other victims. Or act much in the way of other cholinesterase inhibitors at all. Navalny also seemed to recover remarkably quickly and left Germany after a couple of weeks to go on holiday and work on his movie. Not sure if that's the one that just won an Oscar. But our media went to great lengths to promote our great white (supremacist) hope and challenger to The Putin.. Even though Navalny never had much support within Russia, y'know, the place that votes for it's leaders. You can see this in some of the reporting now. Tight shots of a few mourners in Russia, no pictures of the mass protests we're seeing from pro-Palestine or anti-EU. Or you could just look at the dear'ol Bbc. They've been running the story front and centre, but if you look at at the 'most viewed', nobody cares. And remember, the Bbc news site is global.

Remember that occurred in possibly the worst gulag penitentiary in Russia?

I think you mean 'maximum security prison'. They're not meant to be Club Fed. But yes, if he was murdered, it would probably need similar conditions to say, Epstein. Cameras mysteriously not working, guards seeing nothing etc. But you're still assuming he was murdered, not death from natural causes. Or even pre-existing conditions, after all he'd been complaining about being denied access to medical treatment. What treatment, for what conditions? IANAL, but AFAIK if he died as a consequence of his previous 'poisoning', that could be considered murder. Then of course there's why he'd been moved to a maximum security prison. Maybe that was to try and protect him, after all he's proven to be more useful dead than alive.

"It was Lenin who ordered the creation of a secret service poisons factory,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porton_Down

Oh. That one probably wasn't opened by Lenin, although it did extensive experimentation on humans. Mostly our soldiers for some reason. But if you knew your Soviet history, Bulgarians were the master poisoners. Possibly why they make some excellent wines. Oh, and of course there were and are chemical weapon research facilities in Ukraine which had access to Novichok.

In the case of Navalny's 2020 previous assassination attempt, we do even have the candid confirmation from one of the Russian FSB agents himself.

Err.. no. You have Navalny claiming his panties were poisoning. That was after his team claimed it was his tea. No, wait, his water bottle. And none of his entourage, or anyone who tried to assist him was affected by supposedly the deadliest contact poison known only to Russia.. and a lot of other places.

But such is politics. Less than 30mins after his death was announced, our 'dear leaders' told the world he'd been murdered. Just as his wife was rather conveniently attending the Munich Security Conference. Challenge for you: Which Russian oligarch was her partner? But then-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Navalnaya#Possible_political_future

Political analyst Konstantin Kalachev said that Navalnaya's role has changed: "From the wife of a politician, she is herself becoming a politician"; "she has charisma and charm, and can easily replace her husband if necessary".

I guess it's now neccessary, and again rather convenient. A shedload of publicity, a new partner to finance her political ambitions. She even looks a bit like Eva Peron. Grieving widow, determined to carry on her husband's work, yeh, we can sell this.. Oh, and she's a woman! First female Russian President! Yeh, we can do this, just get rid of the husband.. Slight snag-

She has been described in media as the "First Lady" of the Russian opposition.

Only in our media. I'm pretty sure most Russians, and anyone with any kind of vague interest in Russian politics knows that the only serious Russian opposition is their Communist Party, and it's been pretty much that way since Putin came to power. Selling Yulia might even have worked, if only our 'leaders' weren't so quick to push the narrative.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Classical linguistics 101

I stopped reading after "Context: noon". Did I miss a lot? Did Putin (or Peskov) deny any involvement (tantamount to admitting guilt)?

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Classical linguistics 101

I stopped reading after "Context: noon"

And you still don't seem to grasp the concept of quoting. But yes, you miss many things. So no idea who Yulia's date for Munich was, or why she was even there at all? As for official denials, that may come after someone's actually figured out how he died. Most of our 'leaders' moved swiftly past that boring little detail, and straight on to "cui bono", which is obviously not The Putin. Still no evidence of murder though, despite our 'leaders' absolute certainty on this point.

Meanwhile, in other news, the Bbc has dialed back it's saturation bombardment and Navalny's completely out of the top 10. In at #2 though, "What should you do if a dog attacks?". £5b+ a year and our state broadcaster brings us all the top stories. Wait. Putin gifts people dogs. Is this how he's planning to invade us? Are the Bbc quietly preparing us to defend against Putin's dogs of war?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Classical linguistics 101

> And you still don't seem to grasp the concept of quoting.

Says the guy who quotes "well understood and classified" as "well understood but classified" and then builds a full page rebuttal based on his own misquote. Pills time, grampy. Trump worshipers are just like him: liquid inside.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Classical linguistics 101

However, various OPCW labs could still independently prove...

Is a quote. But when you said-

njp is a moron

That's a misquote, despite being independently proven. Your quote is also incorrect because the OPCW labs weren't independent, and didn't prove anything other than perhaps detecting a previously unknown organophospate of an unknown origin that can't be proven as Russian, or classified because all the good stuff is, well, classified. And most of the gish-gallop in attempting to pin Novichok on Russia is based on the idea that only Russian state chemists know how to produce it. Yet the reference structures the OPCW use were given to it by Iranian chemists who synthesised it. And one of the few proven criminal cases around Novichok was when Russia arrested a chemist for selling it to other Russian criminals.

It's much like other examples of chem-FUD and mud slinging when some 'expert' found traces of hexamine and insisted that proved Syria must have been using a rather strange route to synthesis another nerve agent instead of all the other potential sources of hexamine. Like plain'ol explosives residue.

But that's all by way of background. One potential thing that fiasco did show was some bloodwork published by the Lancet, claiming to be from Navalny, was possible evidence of pancreatitis. Perhaps a failing pancreas or liver is really what lead to Navalny's death, not murder, as claimed by leading forensic pathologists like Biden, or 'Lord' Cameron?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Classical linguistics 101

> But when you said- njp is a [maga] moron

That got 5 upvotes and your own lonely downvote. Some people seem to agree.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Classical linguistics 101

That got 5 upvotes and your own lonely downvote. Some people seem to agree.

Oddly, not on this screen. But like the claim of 'murder', it proves nothing. Maybe you have 5 sock puppet accounts? And why do you assume the downvote was from me? Like most things in your posts, you don't seem to bother with any traditional rules of evidence, just leap straight to conclusions..

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Classical linguistics 101

Hey Jellied Eel. Now you're picking on Navalny's wife? Do you realize that you're only competing against yourself in your own league of most despicable posters?

[Jellied Eel]

Re: Classical linguistics 101

Hey Jellied Eel. Now you're picking on Navalny's wife?

I'm not picking on her at all. I'm merely expressing surprise that she was conveniently in Munich, although it may have been her partner who was invited. I'm somewhat less suprised by the choreography today-

Alexie Navalny's widow, Yulia Navalnaya, has been invited to Brussels today, to join the Foreign Affairs Council of EU officials.

I'm guessing some Russians can get exemptions to travel bans and sanctions, if they're useful. If not, Borrell could probably make an exception-

Borrell also proposed that the EU rename its human rights sanctions regime, which targets individuals and entities responsible for serious human rights violations, in the late Navalny's name.

I guess Borrell wouldn't dare rename it in Trump's name. It's also somewhat ironic given Borrell's 'human rights sanctions regime' does really target individuals with cash and asset seizure and forfeitures simply because some Russias were vaguely connected to the Putin, or ran business with government contracts. But I suspect Nalavalny probably would have approved of the legalised theft and extortion service Borell is running. $60bn for Urkaine, $6bn for the big guy. C'mon man, make it happen..