CERN seeks €20B to build a bigger, faster, particle accelerator

CERN wants to build a next-generation particle accelerator that could cost up to €20 billion. The proposed Future Circular Collider (FCC) in Switzerland and France would have a circumference of over 90 kilometers and collide protons at energies of 100 teraelectronvolts (TeV), compared to the 14 TeV achieved by the lab's Large …

[Paul Cooper]

But is Dark Matter real?

There seems to be a fundamental assumption in Gianotti's statement that Dark Matter actually exists. While the consensus is that it does, there is a significant minority view that it's our understanding of Gravity that is incomplete, and recently that view has gained strength. There is the persistent gap between different estimates of the Hubble Constant from different methodologies, and the difference exceeds the experimental error of either technique. I may be garbling things, but I am a geologist and data nerd, not a cosmologist! But surely it would make more sense to work on investigations like the LISA probe and astrometric measurements than try to bang things together harder when we don't have a theoretical basis for doing so.

[Ian Johnston]

Re: But is Dark Matter real?

It does sound a bit like the Copernicans raising cash for a bigger, better orrery with even more epicycles.

[Pascal Monett]

Re: surely it would make more sense

This is Science. It makes sense to discover everything we can, and who knows what we'll discover if we crank it up to 11 ?

Until hypermatter reactors are a common thing, I say we need to up the ante. Go for it. Collide at insane speeds and see what comes of it.

If we don't try, we'll never know what we missed.

[Craig 2]

Re: Collide at insane speeds

Forget insane speed, we need to go straight to Ludicrous Speed

[Victor Ludorum]

Re: Collide at insane speeds

Surely this FCC will be Plaid? (what are we going to call it once it's built? It won't be the Future Collider...)

Seriously though, it often strikes me that we haven't 'discovered' Dark Matter because we don't actually know what we're looking for or how to detect it despite some of the best boffins on the planet using all their collective brain cells to try.

[Zolko]

Re: Collide at insane speeds

despite or because ? One could argue that they – the best boffins on the planet – want a new toy and are inventing problems to justify those new toys.

[Arthur the cat]

Re: Collide at insane speeds

what are we going to call it once it's built? It won't be the Future Collider...

The Fucking Colossal Collider. It keeps the acronym that will be blazoned on everything.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: Collide at insane speeds

The Fucking Colossal Collider

A natural successor to the Large Hardon Collider, then?

[imanidiot]

Re: Collide at insane speeds

If keeping in line with optical telescopes it would be the Extremely Large Hadron Collider. Or possibly the Overwhelmingly Large Hadron collider

[Zolko]

Re: Collide at insane speeds

the BBC : Bloody Big Collider

[Alan Brown]

Re: Collide at insane speeds

"it often strikes me that we haven't 'discovered' Dark Matter because we don't actually know what we're looking for"

Pretty much this sums it up. "Dark" in this instance means "mystery/unknown"

There are several conflicting ideas and NONE of them have borne fruit yet (which is _why_ there are several conflicting ideas)

[Charlie Clark]

Re: But is Dark Matter real?

I think your assumption about an assumption is incorrect. "Dark matter" is the term applied to an observed phenomenon for which we have no coherent, let alone validated, explanation. I don't think it's a good name because it suggests that there are some particles we just don't know about. The same is true with "dark energy" which is really a reframing of the observable acceleration of expansion.

An accelerator such as the one proposed might be required to test such explanations as we continue to try and resolve the manifest problems associated with the idea of quantum gravity. But it's also going to need astronomical experiments, though LISA is unsuited for that particular task.

Biggest problem as I see it, is potential budget and schedule overruns.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: But is Dark Matter real?

It is unfortunate nomenclature. It's more like Dark Mass and Dark Acceleration, but I guess those are less sexy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: But is Dark Matter real?

Less Sexy? Someone hasnt been to a Dark Mass before! What with all the sex and blood, it is the definition of Crazy Sexy...

Dont get me started on those Dark Acceleration folk though. They're just Crazy...

[HuBo]

Re: But is Dark Matter real?

Which uniquely evokes the well-known Swiss aphrodisiac aphorismus, dispatched where scientific endeavors seriously lack in requisite "Crazy Sexy" angles, as evidenced in cuckoo clocks and holey cheeses: "How can you call yourself a dark mass, dark acceleration, or dark chocolate!?". (IMHO)

[Charlie Clark]

Re: But is Dark Matter real?

I find the term "dark" the most difficult. It is supposed to stand for "unknown", but why don't we use that? Or possibly something derived from gnosis to allow for a more precision definiton in the context: TBD mass (you're right, it doens't have to be matter at all); TBD expansion. With TBD standing for To Be Determined or To Be Discovered, as a way of underlining the very theoretical nature of the supposition. This might also help in reframing the point that it's not necessarily bigger particles smashers we need, but different ones that might reveal what is currently unobservable (ie. neither invisible nor dark).

[The Man Who Fell To Earth]

And now for something really important

Meanwhile, apparently, Zefram Cochrane has started working on warp drive in Bellevue.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nuclear-missile-found-us-man-191224528.html

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: But is Dark Matter real?

It's a Rescuing Hypothesis needed because the numbers don't add up when you use existing theory. Might end up true. Might not.

[Lyndication]

Re: But is Dark Matter real?

Alternative Gravity theories such as MOND do exist and are actively studied, but the body of evidence from observation, especially after JWST, is that it isn't accurate.

In fact Dr Banik, one of the major theorists around MOND, recently published a paper ultimately discrediting it:

https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/527/3/4573/7342478?login=false

Like all good scientists, he's done the math, checked the scopes, and realised it comes up short. He's looking into whether the equation can be adapted or if the theory can evolve from here, but overall it seems highly likely that Gravity remains a universal constant inline with Relativity Theory in classical Physics.

An exciting time nonetheless.

[Anonymous Coward]

if you read the paper

it gives an impressive list of MOD successes for dynamics on the galactic scale. ( In some ways you expect it to, as it was tailored to galaxy rotation anomalies that ΛCDM cannot explain. But seems to be covering quite a range of effects/observations on this scale ). The paper shows that it MOND isn't working on a much smaller scale of the larger (i.e. weakly coupled) binary star systems, whilst ΛCDM is.

So, you seem to be mis-quoting the paper, which concludes "While our results falsify MOND as currently understood, given the many problems for ΛCDM discussed in that work, our results cannot be used to argue that it is the correct model either − both models are clearly incomplete".

ΛCDM being the established non-MOND version of general relativity, inclusive of its Newtonian limit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: But is Dark Matter real?

We don't know, but we do know that all this money is disappearing into a dark hole.

On the positive side, at least it keeps a few thousand otherwise unemployable eggheads off the dole.

[HelpfulJohn]

Re: But is Dark Matter real?

I have this persistent image of an early model Hominid with a furry leotard squatting near a river holding two rocks. He has this quizzical look.

Perhaps C.E.R.N. should have something like that as their flag, logo and letterhead?

Or maybe not? I'm very tired and *I* think it would be funny but I fear that the bean-counters and plotiticians would frown upon it.

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

Priorities

"When the world is faced with threats from the climate emergency, would it not be wiser to channel these research funds into the endeavours to create a manageable future?"

Let's build one less nuclear submarine and have both, eh?

[Annihilator]

Re: Priorities

Absolutely. I'm utterly fed up of the "but what about..." arguments for any science funding. Space exploration gets battered by it too. There are always "better" things to spend money on. Curing cancer, ending poverty, etc etc.

Meanwhile, the world collectively spends around $2.2 trillion annually on various militaries. The US contributing 40% of that alone. As you say, perhaps for just one year they could spend $2.18 trillion instead. They could even spend $2.119 trillion over the next 20 years if it's easier - call it $2.2 for simplicity.

[DJO]

Re: Priorities

Perhaps that's the answer, come up with a spurious but vaguely possible way high energy physics has a defence use and watch all the funding problems just disappear.

[Alan Brown]

Re: Priorities

Along with all the results - into "classified" status

[HPCJohn]

Re: Priorities

Well CERN's charter forbids any military related research. It was set up in the aftermath of WWII to bring nations together.

"spurious but vaguely possible way high energy physics has a defence use " Errrr... wh exactly worked on the Manhattan Project and the other nations efforts?

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Priorities

What if we ran 2 militaries in circles around Switzerland and had them crash into each other ?

We might not learn as much, but it would be entertaining

[I ain't Spartacus]

Re: Priorities

What if we ran 2 militaries in circles around Switzerland and had them crash into each other ?

Is this an attempt to find the Benny Hill's boson? It's bound to end up with the camera sped up and the squaddies running round to the strains of Yaketty Sax.

[Charlie Clark]

Re: Priorities

I think it was a bit of rent-a-quote. € 20 bn over 20 years for the membes of CERN isn't a lot of money and DARPA is happy to spaff that much every year on much weirder shit. Bigger problem for the UK is ensuring that it has a proper seat at the international research tables.

[42656e4d203239]

Re: Priorities

>>€ 20 bn over 20 years for the membes of CERN

It's barely a rounding error in their respective budgets... 23 members, $20Bn, over 20 years, gives about $43.5 Million each per year.

UK Gov PLC spaffed way more than that in "jobs for the boys" contracts recently and no-one blinked.

[John Robson]

Re: Priorities

"no-one blinked"

Alot of us did more than blink - and hopefully we will soon get to kick them into third place in the commons, not even the official opposition.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: Priorities

And we'll get a new lot that spaff even more.

[Just An Engineer]

Re: Priorities

“Some experts believe the €20 billion (£17.1 billion, $21.5 billion) price tag does not represent value for money and that the funds could be spent more wisely on research that addresses diseases or climate change.”

Is this due to the fact that value for money is code for cannot be profited from?

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

Re: Priorities

No it's a legitimate concern that a lot of very useful but lower energy, and therefore less sexy, but useful facilities got shut down while building the LHC.

It's like saying we should invest in sport and fitness, host the Olympics, build massive stadiums but closing all local playing fields to pay for it.

[Charlie Clark]

Re: Priorities

I think you make the point much better than Mr King. Of course, in an ideal world we shouldn't be forced to choose between such prestige projects and bread-and-butter ones, and it's one of the reasons why CERN, and similar bodies were founded, as a way of pooling the resources necessary for developments that individual countries couldn't afford. And it's been my experience that the removal of funding always happen after the agreement for the prestige project, ie. the new development is used as a fig-leaf for cuts.

[jdiebdhidbsusbvwbsidnsoskebid]

Re: Priorities

We in the UK could scrap less then one fifth of HS2 and pay for the whole of the FCC. https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/hs2-costs

Or we could save up the brexit dividend for about a year and again, FCC is paid for. https://images.app.goo.gl/rEEDJcGVLZz7a1y67

Perhaps we could have worked harder to stop Liz Truss getting into power and the Treasury could have bunged the £20bn they lost as a result to the FCC and it would have been paid for. https://fullfact.org/news/pmqs-snp-uk-economy-truss/

Or, every EU citizen pays less that €3 a year, it'll paid be paid for by 2040. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Population_and_population_change_statistics

If we all groom our own pets instead of paying others, FFC could be paid for in about 5 years. Sorry to all you professional pet groomers, but there might be some jobs going at CERN. https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/pet-grooming-services-market

20Bn isn't much in the grand scheme of things.

[Charlie Clark]

Re: Priorities

Despite its manifest problems, I really don't like HS2 being held up as the whipping boy for wasting public money. It should be compared with similar projects only, and if you want to look for something that did less and cost more, mile for mile, then you need to look no further than CrossRail, which also illustrates just quite how skewed infrastructure investment is towards London and the South East.

By all means debate the pros and cons of high-speed rail (and additional freight capacity), but do this for the whole network rather than cherry-picking things to bash. I remember clearly when the TGV line down to Marseille was under construction how one French farmer asked why he should lose fields just so that the journey time would be halved. This is a very valid question but also a false equivalence. High-speed rail has been shown to reduce both car and air travel on the routes served within integrated networks, which is why many of the Spanish lines remain of dubious value.

But I think HS2 also highlights the fake dichotomy of big versus small projects. There are good technical, geographical and political reasons why the existing West Coast Main Line couldn't simply be upgraded to a high-speed line. But parts of it certainly could have been significantly improved while work was done a new high-speed line. And other parts of the network could and should have been upgraded (electrification of many branch lines on hold since the 1960s) to ensure real network effects; George Gideon Obsorne deserves at least some credit for pushing this idea.

And it's the same for science: innovation and development for and from CERN have helped projects in all participating countries. Yes, there's the WWW but also work done on really large magnets, superconductors, tunnel making, vibration damping, particle detection have often been groundbreaking in their fields. But good scientific discovery works both ways: many projects improve on, adapt (often at much reduced cost) stuff from the larger ones because their focus is narrower. This, indeed, has been one of the main claims of the scientific method with investments generally repaying themselves many times over, if often indirectly, which is why tax-based funding is a good idea™.

Okay, rant over, I'll take another dried frog pill!

[Tom 38]

Re: Priorities

if you want to look for something that did less and cost more, mile for mile, then you need to look no further than CrossRail, which...

..accounts for 1 in 6 train journeys in the UK?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Priorities

in real life: let's build 3 subs and to hell with science!

btw, will they fit into Lake Geneva though?!

[Kurgan]

Re: Priorities

Sorry but currently we need more weapons, not less weapons.

[Paul Crawford]

Sir David King, a chemist and a former chief scientific advisor for the British government, called the project "reckless" in an interview.

Sure £17.1 billion is a lot even for a group of nations, but even the grand total is less than the impact to the UK of having Liz Truss do a single budget...

[Empire of the Pussycat]

He's just a chemist with physics envy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, but

as an undergraduate physics-chemistry student, I was a " physics or stamp collecting" man. Year 1 of post grad with a need to produce a particular molecule to study, I find myself bimbling along to some friendly organic chemists - ah, if you've got a couple of spare minutes guys, have you any ideas on how you would make X ? Brutal end of any delusions of intellectual superiority.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Ah, but

Third year QM course, my friend who studied chem for a year before moving universities and doing geography looked over and pointed out what I'd messed up.

They had done more QM in their first term than I did in my entire degree.

[Eclectic Man]

Re: Ah, but

I did Maths, Further Maths and Physics at 'A'-Level and was really p--ed off that the Chemistry students were studying sub-atomic particles and not the Physics students. Went on to do maths at uni though. Of course some of the students did all four to 'A'-Level, but I was not aware that was allowed before I made my choice.

[elsergiovolador]

the impact to the UK of having Liz Truss do a single budget...

Probably the first budget ever that has collapsed multiple currencies and bond markets around the world, before even it has been implemented.

That's impressive.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry she's still there itching to have another go. She can do better than 20B next time

[Eclectic Man]

Aside - Liz Truss

See: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/06/popular-conservatism-has-splintered-but-is-united-in-criticism-of-sunaks-policies

"It was an event intended to mark the reinvigoration of rightwing conservatism. But even before the first speaker took to the stage on Tuesday morning, the Popular Conservatism group had splintered.

Of the four MPs billed to speak, just two were present – Liz Truss and Jacob Rees-Mogg. The former cabinet minister Ranil Jayawardena, regarded by some as a rising star of the Tory right, pulled out on Monday with a swipe at his fellow panellists. And Simon Clarke, another Trussite former cabinet minister, was removed from the line-up by the organisers two weeks ago after calling for Rishi Sunak to be ousted."

And: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/06/liz-truss-popcons-tory-lettuce

"If today’s launch by the leader who was outlasted by a lettuce is the answer, what on earth was the question?"

(It is almost as if The Guardian is not a fan of Liz, for some reason.)

At least Kwarteng intends to step down https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/06/kwasi-kwarteng-to-stand-down-as-mp-at-next-election

"Kwasi Kwarteng, the former chancellor who oversaw the ill-fated “mini-budget” under the short-lived government of Liz Truss, has said he will not stand again as an MP at the next election.

The MP’s announcement came as a reminder of the debacle, hours before Truss was to launch a rightwing Conservative movement called PopCon, joined by other senior figures from the party"

So, what is the difference between 'PopCorn' and 'PopCon'?

A - there isn't one, they are both overblown, empty of nutrients and bad for your health.

[Eclectic Man]

Re: Aside - Liz Truss

See also this from the Guardian

"Cash-strapped local authorities across the UK took out massive 50-year loans at soaring rates of interest in the aftermath of Liz Truss’s catastrophic mini-budget, according to official figures that reveal more about the long-term cost to the public of her 49 days in office.

Figures from the government’s Debt Management Office show that after the budget on 23 September, 2022, announced by Truss’s chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng, 24 50-year loans of between £590,000 and £40m were taken out by councils at interest rates of up to 4.77 %, over the rest of that year."

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/10/disastrous-truss-budget-forced-uk-councils-to-take-out-massive-loans-at-high-interest-rates

[Arthur the cat]

the grand total is less than the impact to the UK of having Liz Truss do a single budget...

Yep. The LHC has been working for 14 years and never produced a black hole but Truss punched one in the British economy in only 7 weeks.

[Paul Crawford]

Best name?

I feel an El Reg poll coming, as "Future Circular Collider" is not really that exciting, nor does it lend itself to puerile puns. I would vote for Harder Hadron Collider, but maybe the legion of commentards have better suggestions?

[jmch]

Re: Best name?

I fear a lot of puzzled looks on the faces of government apparatchiks being asked for funding, when they wonder why it's so expensive to collide Hard-ons!

[AceRimmer1980]

Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger

The 5upergiant 5ircular 5ern 5masher

[A_Tester]

Re: Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger

Close! The FTX/Particle Physics team up at DESY Hamburg had this ;-) (Own PP systems and significant contributors to/collaborators with CERN efforts and the HEP s/w ecosystem....)

https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.09709

--> Beers for the clever souls at both sites and across the HEP community!

[I ain't Spartacus]

Re: Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger

The 5upergiant 5ircular 5ern 5masher

That can only be pronounced in a Daffy Duck voice?

[Annihilator]

Re: Best name?

To be fair, Family Guy have already got a great song ready to go. I would happily sign-up to calling it the Freakin' FCC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu6K6uclU54

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Best name?

The BFC and the middle word ends with off.

[ArrZarr]

Re: Best name?

I mean, I agree that he's done wonders for cricket, but I don't see the connection to Physics.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Best name?

The BFC and the middle word ends with off.

The BFC9000, shirley....

[cookieMonster]

Re: Best name?

RoundyMcRoundy Face

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Best name?

Collider McCollider Face.

[Rob]

Re: Best name?

Kep it simple, FHHC for F***ing Huge Hadron Collider

[John Robson]

Re: Best name?

On the basis that the size is really just a way of getting more energy, why not use the energy levels in the name...

[Caver_Dave]

Re: Best name?

Am I the only one that reads FCC as "F*king Colossal Collider"?

[jmch]

Black hole time!!!

Hi guys.... so, the LHC didn't create a black hole, so we're going for something bigger!!

Nice aerial depiction of where the proposed tunnel would run, for anyone who knows the area, it gives a good idea of just how massive the scale of that proposed FCC thing is. (Annecy, pictured on the far right, is a 40-minute drive from Geneva!!)

And if they need help with the funding, maybe they can do a joint venture with the Canton of Geneva to finally have a road tunnel under the lake instead of relying almost exclusively on 2 2-lane bridges to get all the traffic over the Rhone and/or Lake Geneva!

[Korev]

Re: Black hole time!!!

> (Annecy, pictured on the far right, is a 40-minute drive from Geneva!!)

Not with the Geneva traffic it's not!

[jmch]

Re: Black hole time!!!

Yeah, the 40 min is just on the motorway! From the centre of Geneva you need to add half an hour to get to the motorway (that, at least, was the case around 10 years ago, and since they voted against a new bridge or tunnel around that time, and number of cars could only have increased, I figure it's probably worse now). Unless you did as I used to do, which is motorbike + filter through car traffic*

*I get that car drivers sometimes get pissed at scooter/bike riders filtering through, but if even half of those riders were driving cars instead, the city would come to a standstill!!

[werdsmith]

Re: Black hole time!!!

With a tunnel that scale, the underground transport will be considered. To have road and or rail systems so EVs can move people around. Currently they use bicycles and little vehicles similar to those mobility cars for people who unable to walk far.

[Ken Hagan]

Re: Black hole time!!!

"a joint venture with the Canton of Geneva to finally have a road tunnel under the lake"

I doubt they'd be able to share the tunnel. The road users would produce a lot of vibration, at least until they were killed off by the synchrotron radiation.

[Annihilator]

Re: Black hole time!!!

Or for additional London-centric scale, the equivalent would sit somewhere between the north/south circular and the M25.

[elsergiovolador]

£17.1bn

could be spent more wisely on research that addresses diseases or climate change

Yay £17.1bn spending on straightening the hockey sticks of doom. The scientific community should seek to flush out charlatans from their ranks as the man-made climate change peddlers undermine trust in science and turn it into $cience beauty contest. Who can create more fear and bring in more sweet sweet grants?

[Korev]

Re: £17.1bn

You forgot the icon -->

[Throatwarbler Mangrove]

Re: £17.1bn

Obligatory xkcd

[HuBo]

Re: £17.1bn

Interesting Högbom-Arrhenius stuff (1776, 1896, ...)! By analogy (maybe), might the "Information Revolution" (1985+) have a predicted "iatrogenic" effect (of major consequence) that we are yet to identify, and/or observe?

[Bbuckley]

Re: £17.1bn

Totally agree. How much hard-earned tax-payers money has been peed away on climate doom misinformation? Nothing at all useful coming out of that waste of money.

[Dinanziame]

I'll be honest...

This kind of makes it sound like researchers are running out of things to do.

Credits to The Onion

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

Power

Where is the power for this going to come from? The LHC already shuts down for 4 months over winter due to power demand in Europe. If things carry on as they are, Europe won't have the spare electrickery to light a lamp, let alone run this.

[Sceptic Tank]

Re: Power

Solar

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

Re: Power

I love a good laugh. Thanks for that

[Bbuckley]

Re: Power

This should be a challenge to the climate ideologues - "hey foo, how are you going to power the future of the Human race?"

[Anonymous Coward]

they can plug it in ..

... to ITER

[sebacoustic]

velodrome

in 2035, a Tour de France prologue purely underground, 280km through a tunnel before they install the accelerator hardware?

[Fr. Ted Crilly]

Re: velodrome

No no, an ITT surely, and a TTT through the service bore of the Channel Tunnel is so obvious too.

[Binraider]

The earlier one wasn't successful at making a black hole, so we'll have to make a bigger one!

[Sceptic Tank]

Digging deep in Switserland

So why now bring "climate change" into this? The people raiding the earth to dig up minerals to build EVs, wind turbines, solar panels, etc., can just sell all the rare earths, copper, aluminium, and what have you to CERN. They'll still make their money. But I suppose this scaremongering over "climate change" will sell more. This whole "climate change" thing is just to switch from an oil based economy to a lithium based one so that somebody else sitting on some kind of mineral can start raking in the money.

[Bbuckley]

Re: Digging deep in Switserland

The climate change monkeys will always try to suppress Science. Remember, they are BELIEVERS!

[Rol]

My lifetime income is directly proportional to the cost of...

...whatever hair brained idea I come with next, so let's go for the most expensive shall we.

You've got to ask why the alternative proposal of a linear track, that would be cheaper and easily expandable, has been rebuffed?

In 30 years time, when the orbital track has proven too small, it will be a 100km diameter track next, whereas the linear proposal would just need a few more lengths added on at the end until the desired velocity is reached.

[Tom 38]

Re: My lifetime income is directly proportional to the cost of...

My understanding is that the particles make multiple laps of the ring before being collided, which obviously wouldn't work in a linear collider, or rather, the linear collider would have to be multiple times the circumference of the collider ring to accelerate to the same speed. Maybe it is more efficient to accelerate linearly rather than in a ring?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: pop goes the weasel

Particles lose energy when you push them round corners, as radiation. This was the bug that turned into a feature for other scientists, who use this synchrotron radiation for all sorts of boffinry.

I'd be happier about a new collider if there was a "killer experiment" in its range that would nail down some hypothesis about dark energy, matter or whatever; but it sounds more like "we don't know what to do now, so let's build a bigger one and hope the theoreticians come up with something". You can tell the scientists aren't confident when they start muttering about spinoffs and technology developments for the wider community...

[NXM]

Re: My lifetime income is directly proportional to the cost of...

Use entangled pairs of particles in a linear accelerator. When one reaches the end, it reappears at the start at the same speed while the other one is halfway along.

Simples.

[Rol]

Re: My lifetime income is directly proportional to the cost of...

so use the existing gear to spin them up and exit them along the linear track to get them up to speed.

[Samsara]

Funding Particle

Searching for that ultra-rare 'E.U funding Boson' again no doubt...

[Rich 2]

FCC

I thought it stood for "Fucking Colossal Collider"

[Andy The Hat]

What is it aiming to produce? The LHC designers sort of had an idea of what they thought they were looking for (the Higgs) and pitched it at the energies they thought it occupied ... "Dark matter" means nothing - is it 140GeV or 200TeV?

[gecho]

Could never build that in America

They hate roundabouts, let alone a double roundabout.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's fairly clear that the era of larger and larger accelerators is over as they deliver fewer and fewer insights. It's time for a smarter approach with precision experiments.

[Bbuckley]

I like your assertion. But do you have a scientific idea as to how you will do the precision experiments you mention - e.g. how are you to get such immense power without a huge particle accelerator - you must already have the Nobel prize!

[CapeCarl]

FCC+++...++

(using Intel 14nm naming conventions)...Hmmm why not build a Ringworld and get the FCC+++...++ for "free" (outer edge of the Ringworld)? // :)

[Joseba4242]

When do they learn not to call something "new" or "future".

Still have a "new iPad" which is the only one not in the historical lineup in Apple's website. Guess they were too embarrassed about the name.

[gandalfcn]

€20B to build a bigger, faster, particle accelerator

HS2, £45bn.

[Bbuckley]

Cheaper than HS2 and worth much more

This is the boundary of real Science (i.e. discoveries that will mean something 1000 years from now and maybe get us to the starts). Not 'science' as unfortunately dumbed down by the once-great BBC to cater for the low-IQ woke generation. AND it is much cheaper than the low-IQ HS2 debacle so it is actually amazingly cheap when you think about it.