back to article Still no love for JPEG XL: Browser maker love-in snubs next-gen image format

Browser makers Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla, alongside two software consultancies, celebrated a moment of unity and common purpose on Thursday with the announcement of Interop 2024, a project to promote web browser interoperability. The process began last year by gathering proposals for web technologies that group …

  1. Fazal Majid

    Frankly JPEG XL is much more attractive than the patent-larded monstrosity that is AVIF, but I get their point. Every new format, specially a niche one, increases the already large attack surface of the browser. Most of the exploits used by NSO's spyware are from bugs in image file format parsers used by iMessage, for example, and you can bet the JPEG XL implementation is nowhere near as robust and battle-tested as the JPEG or PNG one (which still deliver a steady stream of CVEs despite their maturity).

    1. iTheHuman

      AVIF doesn't have any real patent issues, lonely troll not excluded.

  2. Tomato42

    As a casual graphic user and photographer, I can say that it's the first time I hear about JPEG XL. I did hear about WebP (seen it used "in the wild"). So, what is the benefit of JPEG XL over WebP?

    On the other hand, I see the JPEG 2000 in the graveyard, what makes JPEG XL not another format that will simply not join it there?

    1. Piro Silver badge

      The benefits are many, one is, uniquely, that it can take standard jpegs and losslessly (and reversibly) compress them further.

      There's nothing else like it.

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        The benefits are many, one is, uniquely, that it can take standard jpegs and losslessly (and reversibly) compress them further.

        Clever, but does anyone really care? Seems like a rather niche requirement.

        1. MatthewSt Silver badge

          Reducing the amount of storage required and the amount of bandwidth used is hardly a niche requirement. Unless you're using Lynx...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Reducing the storage by 5% is pretty pointless... Unless it's an order of magnitude, no-one cares. All the images on your website will be less than one short video.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              You're thinking about it as one image being transferred to one device, rather than billions. That 5% adds up quickly.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Why should I pay for a patent licence for my device so that some random website saves a dime on bandwidth?

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  I don't know, why would you? JPEG XL is royalty-free.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Just wishing something to be true doesn't make it so. Use your favorite search engine to check your statement.

                    There is a REASON that the JPEG-XL roll out was stopped. That reason was patents.

                    1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

                      JPEG-XL is Royalty Free - as in no patents. If you had used "your favourite search engine" before you posted you'd should have come across the following:

                      JPEG (the definitive holders of the specification of this format): Overview of JPEG XL

                      "Provides a free and open source, royalty-free JPEG XL reference implementation, also available on Github."

                      JPEGXL website - Why JPEG-XL

                      "Unlike some other modern formats, JPEG XL is not encumbered by patents nor does it require proprietary software. The reference software, libjxl, has a permissive open source license and is a production-ready library that can be (and already has been) integrated into a variety of image-related software."

                      Wikipedia: JPEG XL

                      "JPEG XL is a royalty-free raster-graphics file format that supports both lossy and lossless compression."

                      @anonymous coward: Given the definitive statements above, can you explain your statement about JPEG-XL being stopped because of patents? The statements above make it very clear that this is not the case whatsoever. The only "stopped because of patents" that is likely with JPEG-XL is that an industry player is blocking it because it does not use any of their patents.

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2022/02/17/microsoft_ans_patent/

                        1. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Ok, but there's no indication that Microsoft is actually applying royalties to that patent, they certainly haven't tried to enforce it anywhere. So what does that have to do with this?

                          1. Anonymous Coward
                            Anonymous Coward

                            lol - stop moving the goalposts. Just accept that JPEG-XL messed up and move on with your life.

                            There will be other image formats.

                          2. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

                            Can you guarantee that if it becomes a big, juicy target, and Micros~1 find themselves repeatedly missing revenue targets? It looks a long shot, but I'd be cagey about it, if I had pockets cagey enough to be picked.

                      2. imanidiot Silver badge

                        Royalty free doesn't mean no patents!!! It just means no one is CURRENTLY asking for money to USE the patents involved. And that is a massive trap that no-one is willing to step into.

                        "what a pretty image format you have there, and are so heavily reliant on. Would be a shame is someone where to enforce payment for those patents now wouldn't it... How about we make a special deal? Just for you?"

              2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                No, not really. No matter what you do with single images it will hardly matter in a world dominated by ≥ 25 fps video.

                I have all the photos I've taken since about 2016 on my phone and even my music library takes up more space.

                1. Morten Bjoernsvik

                  pictures

                  >I have all the photos I've taken since about 2016 on my phone and even my music library takes up more space.

                  Before I bought a pixel 8pro, I now have 25GB of pictures since october. I think it is a trap to buy google diskspace.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: pictures

                    I've noticed that iPhones don't just take pictures any more, it's like a 3 second video so that you can pick a frame where people aren't blinking, etc...

                    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                      Re: pictures

                      On my (non-Apple) phone there's a setting for that but I suspect "No, Dave. I can't let you do that." may be all you hear on an I-Phone that's your plastic glass-covered pal that's fun to be with™

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: pictures

                        Hat tip for two excellent references there!

                  2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                    Re: pictures

                    Ouch! I'd have dialled down the resolution by now.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Pointless if you have zero idea on how much economy you can make reducing by 5% the bandwidth transfer ratio and storage. Without saying the environmental impact consequences.

          2. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

            Like many problems. the real problem isnt what tool is used to compressed images, the real problem is why are so many images sent in the first place that size is a problem.

          3. iTheHuman

            If size matters.... avif beats it for non-graphical images, but jxl is a better One ring.

            However, none of this matters if we don't actually move away from jpeg (Android, start mandating avif support)

      2. CheesyTheClown

        Cool... but

        JPEG is a very simple format with the exception of the headers (more accurately the trailers) which are a nightmare. It's a simple early DCT based encoding based on 8x8 macroblocks. Implementing a cleanroom JPEG decoder is simple and easy to do cleanly.

        JPEG's primary form of loss comes in quantization and "zig-zag truncation" which is when the image is transformed from the spatial domain to the frequency domain, generally a lossless or less-loss operation allows simply dumping high frequency detail from the macroblocks and then representing frequencies in steps rather than values of a generally guassian distribution.

        The "compression" aspect in the sense that after we're done just arbitrarily dumping data is based on quite old and inefficient entropy codings.

        Most other DCT compressions could easily implement the feature you're talking about and achieve similar results. As a matter of fact, it would require no changes to the standards and with only a little work could run some mathematical magic to merge 8x8 macroblocks into larger macroblocks with negligible loss. The only thing required to do what you're suggesting is to implement an abortive decoder which simply decodes purely the frequency domain (therefore pre-iDCT) and then pass that data to the compressor of any other standard. The one requirement is that the decoders for those codecs make use of the standard (thanks to JPEG) DCT coefficients for the process.

        Here's the kicker... JPEG-XL is a monstrosity of a code nightmare. To implement all the fantastic features which JPEG-XL's baseline requires, there's a tremendous amount of code complexity. A hand written, sandboxed, safe implementation of such a decoder could be very time consuming. Where a good cleanroom JPEG decoder would require a few days to create, JPEG-XL implementation could take a year. Also, without extensive mathematical analysis, I'm concerned the entropy coder could have obscure malicious table jumps which could be quite problematic in the security world.

        Finally, there's the performance issue. JPEG-XL isn't nearly as bad as JPEG-2000 (which is a truly amazing standard if impractical), but coding the large amounts of hand-tuned assembler needed to implement the standard is going to take some time.

        There just isn't a strong enough use case for JPEG XL to justify its existence outside of niche areas such as newspaper photo archives.

      3. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          I mean it also supports a lot more features from pretty much every other format out there. An all-in-one format that has the good parts from the others.

    2. Piro Silver badge

      Also, jpeg 2000 isn't dead. It's not necessarily an interesting format these days, but if you've been to a cinema, you've seen jpeg 2000.

      1. Korev Silver badge
        Boffin

        >Also, jpeg 2000 isn't dead. It's not necessarily an interesting format these days, but if you've been to a cinema, you've seen jpeg 2000.

        Additionally, Pathology slide scanners use JPEG2000 "tiles" in an image "pyramid"

        1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          One of the many incidences of vendor lock-in.

          1. Korev Silver badge
            Boffin

            Yes and no... Openslide makes it easy to open them[0].

            [0] If anything too easy, as the bottom layer in the pyramid usually contains multiple Gigapixels and if you can run out of RAM very fast if you don't remember to only select part of the image (apparently)

      2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        JPEG2000 was a reasonable format at the time but it was also DoA due to Microsoft's determination to keep it proprietary.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      It’s gold plated HDMI for geeks.

      Images are small. Storage is large. People don’t care. Your new image format has no relevant end user features.

      * poetry is not my strong suit.

      Ok - maybe an 8k, 10bit image compression feature is needed over jpeg. You get the point, though? JPEG, PNG, mp3, h264, 640k is enough for anyone…

      1. Yorick Hunt Silver badge
        Boffin

        Re: It’s gold plated HDMI for geeks.

        Indeed, the great masses are content with 320x240* images (palletised 8-bit, no less) just big enough to squeeze into a social media post for nanosecond viewing during their daily scrollfest.

        Those who care about their media though will want something as close to source quality as possible - and those who pay for storage themselves (as opposed to their parents paying for it) also want to maximise the use of that storage.

        * correction: 240x320, because the iPhone generation isn't capable of taking or viewing images in landscape orientation.

        1. Ragarath

          Re: It’s gold plated HDMI for geeks.

          It's not storage that's the problem. It's transmission & quality.

          Smaller size = faster transmission. But having that smaller size requires that you loose quality at the moment. In the area I work I would be lambasted if the quality was not good. And even though you are pointing out 240x320, it's not really. Yes that's the virtual size but the screen usually has more pixels than that, a lot more. You therefore if you don't want the image to look crap you have to size it for high PPI devices. At least double the size is needed and size therefore get's larger.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: It’s gold plated HDMI for geeks.

            The image size difference for the same quality is measured in percent. It barely matters for video (hence we never moved on from h264 even though it is 21 years old) let alone for static images…

      2. Lurko

        Re: It’s gold plated HDMI for geeks.

        Images are small. Storage is large. People don’t care. Your new image format has no relevant end user features.

        * poetry is not my strong suit.

        I don't know, Your first three sentences form a nice haiku.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It’s gold plated HDMI for geeks.

          "Your first three sentences form a nice haiku."

          Good bot.

          Oh wait... wrong site, sorry!

      3. Diogene

        Re: It’s gold plated HDMI for geeks.

        Image are very large (and too many) and storage always too small.

        You are in 2024 not in 2014

  3. Piro Silver badge

    A real shame

    It offers unique and worthwhile benefits over all other image formats.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Patents

    Sadly, JPEG-XL was killed by patent trolls. Like JPEG2000 before it.

    People try to blame Google, but I don’t think they care what formats are in their browsers - as long as they are not paying….

    I think the Google lawyers just turned up and said no.

    1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

      Re: Patents

      Looks like the trolls have found this article's BTL already given the downvoting going on.

  5. steelpillow Silver badge
    Facepalm

    It's not about choosing

    Browsers have to render whatever is frikkin' out there in numbers, be it WebP, AVIF, JXL, or whatever.

    If the makers try to distort the market through denial of service, some other browser will come along and toast them.

    Anybody still using Mosaic, Netscape, IE or Edge? No? There's a reason for that....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's not about choosing

      Well... Netscape is now called Firefox. Mosaic was licensed to become IE. IE 12 got renamed Edge. Then Edge became a Chromium wrapper.

      I don't think that had anything to do with choice of image support.

      1. iron

        Re: It's not about choosing

        No it isn't. Firefox is a separate codebase to Seamonkey, what you call Netscape, originally started as a separate project.

  6. ldo

    A Little Less Conversation, A Little More Action

    All this aggravation ain’t satisfactioning me

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1_6F-nCaw

    What? Wrong JXL?

    1. stuartnz
      Pint

      Re: A Little Less Conversation, A Little More Action

      Apropos of not a helluva lot, thanks for putting this in my mind - a reminder that Eric Cantona makes everything better :)

      Nike

  7. rcxb Silver badge

    Write a javascript conversion library

    We're in the era of javascript. Most sites don't work properly without JS, at least most won't load images. Why not write a JPEG-XL to (PNG/JPG) JS conversion routine if you want to use it. Will save you the bandwidth, and be compatible with all browsers, not needing to wait on browser maker support.

    1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

      Re: Write a javascript conversion library

      You will save even more if you eliminate most of the images you are sending in the first place.

      1. Mike 137 Silver badge

        Re: Write a javascript conversion library

        ",,, eliminate most of the images you are sending ..."

        Or at least adjust them to the size allotted to their use on the web page. I've given up counting the number of multi-megabyte images thousands of pixels in height and width that commonly must be downloaded to render in a space typically no larger than 1024x768 on some web page. OK, keep the master image at full camera resolution, but resample server side, not client side, to fit the page. The bandwidth saving from this would far outweigh any gains in improved compression, and it would also save comparable space on the web server.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Write a javascript conversion library

      That just changes who needs to pay for the patent license, not the fact that you need to pay...

    3. Pete Sdev Bronze badge

      Re: Write a javascript conversion library

      at least most won't load images

      I've not tested your assertion. Given the BS I've seen been done by FEmonkeys it could well be true. However images have been supported since before HTML v2 . While background images may be loaded via JS(yuck) the sites I've worked on use the standard img tag for semantically relevant images. In my part of the world accessibility is a consideration and the requirements are getting stricter.

      Doing format conversion with JS is on the face of it a clever idea, though I suspect that it will flatten the battery of mobile users and is thus not viable.

      1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

        Re: Write a javascript conversion library

        Doing image conversion using JavaScript is a ridiculous idea. Kind of clever, but totally and utterly pointless and in reality, quite a detriment to things. Which means that some idiot developer who has no real clue about anything will immediately include it include straight away in their already JavaScript laden abomination of a website (that breaks every accessibility and usability principle)... because it's new and shiny.

        1. cookieMonster Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: Write a javascript conversion library

          Upvoted and a pint.

          Spot on.

      2. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

        0. The routine to do the actual conversion has to be WASM.

        1a. Do the conversion, on the fly, in a service worker. So the page requests `./image.jxl?convert=jpg` and the service worker hooks this and converts it into jpeg. This is the best solution, modulo service workers not being well fitted for this kind of filtering.

        1b. Fetch the binary data on the UI thread, convert it into a format recognised by the browser, then put it in a `Blob` and use `URL.createObjectURL()`. You can still use ordinary `img` - you just have to update the `src` based on some agreed strategy. (We put canvas rendered stuff into images in a similar way.) If you want it in CSS, it's possible to enumerate the style sheets and find the URLs and replace them.

        In my opinion, the performance hit is probably not worth it. And the more images you have (i.e. the closer you are to a setup where bandwidth/storage gains are significant) the bigger the performance hits become. But it can be layered in to existing setups.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Put in on cruise control, lay back, lay off, and reap the dividends.

    Rabin, the former software engineer, recalled one manager saying at an all-hands meeting that XXXXX didn’t need senior engineers because its products were mature. “I was shocked that in a room full of a couple hundred mostly senior engineers we were being told that we weren’t needed,” said Rabin, who was laid off in XXXX.

    1. Dinanziame Silver badge

      Re: Put in on cruise control, lay back, lay off, and reap the dividends.

      Not sure it's really related to this story, but it's an interesting insight on the clusterfuck that Boeing has become, thanks!

  9. Griffo

    Once again Google self Interest

    It sounds like the whole DHCPv6 vs SLAAC shit again, where a single dev at Android is basically holding the world to ransom because he doesn't beleive in the need for Enterprise customers to have better control of clients on their networks. It's crazy!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Once again Google self Interest

      Wow why did this get a downvote? Must be some IPv6 purist crackpot, Lorenzo C is that you?

      1 single guy at Google who has single-handedly put back proper DHCPv6 support for years.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Once again Google self Interest

        IPv6 is a disaster area, and that has nothing to do with Google. It's what happens when you create a poorly-backwards compatible version upgrade.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Once again Google self Interest

          And clearly you understand none of it?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Once again Google self Interest

            I know that the standard came out 28 years ago, and still hasn't become common.

            1. Richard 12 Silver badge

              Re: Once again Google self Interest

              No replacement for IPv4 could ever become common until IPv4 becomes too expensive to use or doesn't work anymore (likely both at the same time)

              I can't change until you change, so why should either of us change?

              "Backwards compatible" is simply impossible at the IP layer because the problem is insufficient bits available. The only options are to wrap or convert at a gateway - and quite a bit of the Internet is already doing that.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Once again Google self Interest

                IPv4 has optional extension data features built into the protocol, so there could have been an evolution. For example, they could have started by just extending existing IP addresses 123.123.123.123.x.x.x.x by adding the next 32bit subnet as a packet extension. Then everyone could start using IPv6 addresses without upgrading anything...

                There's obviously way more to IPv6 than that, but it jamming the features into IPv4 would allow people to start to use it straight away. Then eventually the full protocol would be adopted.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Once again Google self Interest

                  What was once said about being better to keep mouth shut than to open it and remove all doubt?

                  What a laughable idea it is clear you do not know what you are talking about.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Once again Google self Interest

                    Ok - that you didn't know that IPv4 packets have extension options built in (did you ever hear about source routing?) pretty much shows who hasn't spent very much time in the TCP/IP stack...

  10. Mockup1974

    Very sad. It would be better to abandon AVIF and Webp, which are strictly inferior to JPEG XL and have no real raison d'etre.

    With JPEG XL you can even losslessly convert your old JPEGs and PNGs.

  11. alcachofas

    Most of those quotes are from students. And they’re angry/shocked/appalled that Google, Mozilla, Apple etc aren’t accountable to them. Yikes.

    1. Ian Johnston Silver badge

      Ivy League students are not used to having their wishes ignored.

  12. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

    WebP

    I read an article on Hacker News which claimed that WebP (Google's competitor to JPEG XL) doesn't have better compression than normal JPEG for similar picture quality and has weird artifacts if you opt for higher compression.

    In other words: there's very little reason to adopt these new standards.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: WebP

      Well.... WebP and JPEG-XL are better, but not all that much better. JPEG does start to suck at 4k resolution images, though.

  13. hx

    WebP is deprecated

    Anything but WebP.

    1. Davonious

      Re: WebP is deprecated

      I use the heck out of WebP, and the only reason for it is that it's space efficient. I've tested thousands of images, especially images under 500k, and in almost every case, I save 30%+ on a straight png to webp conversion. And that's even with the PNG images being preprocessed by a lossless compression optimizer. Heck, the margin of difference would be even greater in WebP's favor without out that preprocessing step.

      1. hx

        Re: WebP is deprecated

        I mean, would you rather have an image file format that serves the needs of photographers and visual artists, or would you rather have an image file format that serves the storage and processing needs of Google without any outside consultation, who was only able to force people to use WebP through coercion thanks to their global monopoly on both search and browser tech via the Giant Carrot that is better search rankings? Can you even trust Google to do the right thing, or even care about WebP tomorrow? They have proven to be unreliable, and there you are, using their image format? If that's the case, I hope you follow the most efficient route on Google Maps.

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