back to article Drivers: We'll take that plain dumb car over a flashy data-spilling internet one, thanks

Despite all the buzz around internet-connected smart cars at this year's CES in Las Vegas, most folks don't want vehicle manufacturers sharing their personal data with third parties – and even say they'd consider buying an older or dumber car to protect their privacy and security. According to a survey of 2,000 Americans …

  1. Pete 2 Silver badge

    ransomware

    > internet-connected smart cars

    My main concern is that you pay a small fortune to buy a car, then get hit with "extras" that require a monthly subscription. Subs that the maker can arbitrarily increase at any time, to any amount. Or turn off completely at their whim. Maybe even download "upgrades" that severely limit the performance or utility of what you have already paid for. Just like with PCs and phones.

    This seems to be following the trend of cloud computing for businesses. It sounded like a good idea, but increasingly, the drawbacks and costs mean that it's the wrong decision for many.

    1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Re: ransomware

      I was thinking literal ransomware:

      Want to drive to work this morning? Send ₿0.001 to Russia. Want to drive home afterwards? Send ₿0.001 to North Korea.

      1. Pete 2 Silver badge

        Re: ransomware

        I'm waiting for variable extortion payments. Want to use your air conditioning in winter? It's free! Want to use it when it's 40°C? That'll be £1 per mile.

        1. Anonymous Custard Silver badge
          Flame

          Re: ransomware

          Or something like "want to turn your heated seats off now it's summer? Send £1 per minute, otherwise they go back on at full blast..."

          1. CountCadaver Silver badge

            Re: ransomware

            my reply - "you're fucking with an electrician here *inline wired switch snap sound* your move"

            1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

              Re: ransomware

              "Electrical connection integrity check failed. Auto start prevented."

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: ransomware

        Great. I'll get more of that "hi, I've installed a virus in your car and took pictures of you masturbating, please send bitcoins or I will send them to your family, church and employer".

        1. Ian Johnston Silver badge

          Re: ransomware

          "Wish you had a bigger penis? Buy a BMW instead of this car."

        2. CountCadaver Silver badge

          Re: ransomware

          I would just channel President Achmed Sukarno (former president of Indonesia) who "asked for copies of his blackmail tapes to distribute" as he believed it showed him as a virile, powerful man

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: ransomware

        Wait, wtf, there are *two* Unicode symbols for bitcoin, 20BF in addition to 1F4A9?!

        I had no idea.

        1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: ransomware

          One is for use by people trying to steal your money by having you "invest" in something worthless, the other is for use by people who managed to steal your money by having you "invest" in something worthless

      4. mostly average
        Mushroom

        Re: ransomware

        I would imagine a situation more akin to the plot of Speed. Except instead of a bomb on a bus, it's a self driving car holding the passengers hostage. 5 BTC to make the car stop before the cliff ahead. Icon because Keanu Reeves film.

    2. simonlb Silver badge

      Re: ransomware

      If I buy a car, either brand new or second hand (or leased for that matter), then whilst I am the owner, any data-related collections should all be on my terms. I don't have an issue with it having access to my phone to play my music from it or even displaying my photos on the main display if I want to, but rampant data harvesting, subscriptions, additional payments and continual data-feed back to the manufacturer? Absolutely NO WAY! The manufacturer can fuck off! It's MY car and MY data, not yours, and if you think I'm going to just let you do that you're mistaken.

      I agree there may be a case for some data transfer to take place under certain specified conditions, but NEVER a constant stream of whatever the manufacturer deems they have a right to. That is completely unacceptable, and I can see a market for devices to block that by plugging into the OBD port (or whatever) appearing and becoming commonplace.

      This is yet another example of where manufacturers think that they have a divine right to monitor and track you after you've bought their product. It doesn't work that way, and long-term, people will not tolerate or accept it.

      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        Re: ransomware

        "people will not tolerate or accept it"

        Yes they will. It's the drip drip drip of what's 'tolerable' or 'acceptable' - just like having cameras and microphones throughout your house and in your pocket was unacceptable and intolerable 2 decades ago, yet now more than 400 million people VOLUNTARILY do it (source: www.statista.com).

        It's a combination of obfuscating the purpose of these devices, and wearing the consumer down such that it seems 'normal' to just allow it.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: ransomware

          Wouldn't GDPR rules mean they can't grab your data here in Europe anyway? They'd need to ask permission and you need to be able to say "no" without things not working, otherwise it's not a real choice.

          1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

            Re: ransomware

            GDPR doesn't mean "can't" - it means "shouldn't".

          2. Lurko

            Re: ransomware

            In theory yes, but do you think US tech companies give a flying cuff about other countries' laws? Heck, they don't give a fig about their own country's laws.

            1. CountCadaver Silver badge

              Re: ransomware

              they do when the price is do what you're told or be banned from offering services to EU citizens, that for all the brexit bluster is a massive potential hit to the bottom line and loss of a combined populace equivalent to the USA

          3. Ian Johnston Silver badge

            Re: ransomware

            If they don't know who is driving the car at any particular moment (if), is it PII under GDPR?

            Still, by the time Max Schrems has finished we'll probably have to tick a box every time we want to indicate.

            1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

              Re: ransomware

              Identifying the driver with high probability is trivial if people connect their smartphones to their car's surveillatainment system.

          4. TheMeerkat Silver badge

            Re: ransomware

            But people don’t mind their data collected.

            How many are actually pay extra money to install a tracker in their car to protect it from theft, the device with only one purpose to collect data?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: ransomware

              The difference is in how the data is to be used.

              Track the location, to be viewed only if the owner reports it stolen? Sure.

              Track the location to determine what stores the owner visits, to sell that information to competing stores? Absolutely not.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: ransomware

          "yet now more than 400 million people VOLUNTARILY do it"

          When I first read Orwell's 1984, I thought that a key premise was stupid. IIRC, having a telescreen was not required. I thought that it was completely unrealistic that people would voluntarily install something that violated their own privacy. Boy was I wrong...

        3. Ian Johnston Silver badge

          Re: ransomware

          Yes they will.

          Proof: every single Tesla "owner".

      2. Someone Else Silver badge
        Go

        Re: ransomware

        [...] I can see a market for devices to block that by plugging into the OBD port (or whatever) appearing and becoming commonplace.

        Was thinking the same thing. I foresee a cute little cottage industry springing up: Vehicle FW "updates" that trap telemetry spews to the Mothership, and redirect them into /dev/nul. (Of course, they would acknowledge the messages in such a way so as to satisfy the underlying spyware....)

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: ransomware

          That's why most FW these days is encrypted & signed, so it's almost impossible to hack custom versions.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: ransomware

          "and redirect them into /dev/nul..."

          Better yet, return invalid data.

          Little old lady who drives to church once a week and the hairdresser's every month (at 60% of the speed limit)? Send back telemetry that indicates she spends every evening at the pub and occasionally sets respectible lap times at Nürburgring.

          MAGA dude who goes to McDonald's for breakfast every morning before hitting the country club? Let the data sniffers think that he spends prayer time at the local mosque.

          Mangle the data, make it look legit, but make it worthless to the slurpers.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: ransomware

            I may have spent a little time 'fixing' a vehicle tracker by fiddling with the GPS data so it reported random locations a few thousand miles away and speeds that would make a UAP proud

        3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: ransomware

          "I foresee a cute little cottage industry springing up: Vehicle FW "updates" that trap telemetry spews to the Mothership, and redirect them into /dev/nul. (Of course, they would acknowledge the messages in such a way so as to satisfy the underlying spyware....)"

          MS Windows telemetry. I'm not a Windows user, but If there was any level of cottage industry for apps to block that, it's not made much headway in the general populace as far as I can tell. I can't see it being different for connected cars. As someone said further up, data snooping and collection is becoming the norm and almost impossible to avoid.

          1. CountCadaver Silver badge

            Re: ransomware

            As the Stasi noted however, too much data is worse than no data almost, the worthless "noise" drowns out the information you're looking for - spies, terrorists, lone wolf bombers, assassins, organised crime etc...

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: ransomware

              The Stasi didn't have AI. OK - AI is shit, but do you think they will care about 15% inaccuracies ?

      3. Mike_T.

        Re: ransomware

        Unfortunately increasingly often the choice is sign up to the service, subscription or whatever the manufacturer has decided is the best way to give them what they want or not buy the product at all. (As all manufacturers move to the same business model).

        To seems that to compete manufacturers seem to feel that they have to adopt similar business models to remain competitive, and that the only way to ensure success it to produce a cheaper more profitable product than the competition.

        The result for the consumer is a limited or non existent choice. When I went to buy a new car earlier this year I had a long list of optional requirements but just three non negotiable requirements. It had to be an estate, and I didn't want to have key less entry/ignition, or a glass instrument panel. After talking to several different dealers, I brought a second hand model, as that was basically the only vehicle available. It isn't my first choice of colour or even make but it is a perfectly nice car and I saved about £23K on my budget!

    3. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

      Re: ransomware

      It sounded like a good idea, but increasingly, the drawbacks and costs drawbacks and costs for the end-user mean that it's the wrong decision for many.

      FTFY.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I don't trust car manufacturers to keep their systems up to date, patched, and working correctly today, even without full Google Auto integration. I don't believe for a second a car manufacturer will continue to patch an infotainment system in a car that's 10-15 years old. If ransomware groups are willing to spend time putting malware on connected torque wrenches, you can guarentee they'll be aiming for these cars, especially considering all the personal data they'll be collecting.... I'll stick with a standard system that integrates Carplay thanks...

    1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

      Agree on CarPlay. If you live in the connected world then sooner or later you'll need to share some data with a third party; trick is to choose ONE vendor that you more or less trust, and let them manage the rest. That's why I use 'Login with Apple' when possible on websites as well.

      1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
        Black Helicopters

        And Apple will happily send your data to third parties when requested to do so.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

          ”And Apple will happily send your data to third parties when requested to do so.”

          Actually they won’t, but hey. Never let the truth get in the way of a good bit of fiction.

        3. MachDiamond Silver badge

          "And Apple will happily send your data to third parties when requested to do so."

          They'll happily "share your information with their partners" which in most other non-biz languages translates to "we will sell you information to anybody with the dosh".

          The whole popup spam for signing in with Google isn't out of any company's goodwill and lookout for the average punter. It gives Google an even finer look at what individuals look at and for how long.

          1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

            ”They'll happily "share your information with their partners" which in most other non-biz languages translates to "we will sell you information to anybody with the dosh".“

            No, they won’t and don’t. And it’s not because they’re altruistic or honourable; by keeping the data of Apple users to themselves, and using this to develop unique goods and services, it gives them a massive competitive edge. If they shared the data, they would simply be enabling the competition to compete more effectively; right now it’s worth more to them private than public.

            The second reason is that Apple use their data privacy stance to differentiate themselves in the marketplace, and thus gain a subset of clients they otherwise wouldn’t have eg governments.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Forget malware on a torque wrench. Can you imagine a 2.5T Mercedes E350 with a full tank and malware in control of its self-driving capabilities? Now imagine it crashing into a building at 250kph... Now imagine Maximum Overdrive but instead of corraling people at a diner, imagine 50 tankers attacking Wembley Stadium.

      Or every commercial plane in the sky at 2pm this afternoon...

    3. J. Cook Silver badge

      I can more or less guarantee that they do not, can not, and will not update the infotainment on anything older than 10 years. Hell, you are lucky to find the user manual for the infotainment on such an old relic on their web site, let along any sort of update. (which means that the people who bought the vehicles with the in-dash GPS were the original "pay to keep what you bought running" victims.)

  3. Ball boy Silver badge

    It's probably only a latter of time...

    I'd argue that the manufacturers are dying to move to a lease-only model. The sales pitch will be that this is to help with product recycling but, if they get away with this, your car goes end of life when the vendor decides it's no longer making enough profit for them: when you've stopped buying additional monthly subs and your data has been milked dry then it's of no further use to the manufacturer and gets recalled. Never mind the inconvenience of the heated seats or what-have-you no longer working: the entire car will cease to function and the lessor will have to cut a deal with a vendor for a whole new vehicle.

    Welcome to the Brave New World. Now pass me my Government mandated Soma pill.

  4. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

    Not really the primary focus of this article, but subscriptions are the bane of my existence. I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. I detest that several features on my car either cost a small fortune to 'buy' or an even larger fortune (spread out over time) to 'rent'. I loathe that my house security system is advertised as having features x, y, and z, but when bought and installed, it turns out to only actually have x; the other features being tied to a mandatory subscription. I baulk at the idea that actually "owning" a house these days requires 2 substantial incomes and a mountain of savings, otherwise the rental market is the only way to go.

    The only subscription I don't mind, ironically, is HP's Instant Ink. I print about 5 pages a month, so their 'free 15 pages a month for life' tier gives me all I will likely ever need. Right up until they remotely brick my printer with an 'upgrade' in order to get me off this and onto a paid tier.

    1. rafff

      "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

      There are alternative, you know: LibreOffice and Gimp for starters. No-one if forcing you to drink all the M$ coolade, even if you are forced by $work to use a 'doze platform. At home there are very few things other than games that *require* WIndows.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

        Gimp.

        That’s really not a decent option, for mine and many requirements it’s a pile of crap. But Affinity is a good perpetual license alternative.

        Affinity also provide alternatives to other applications in the Adobe stable.

        1. Evil Scot Bronze badge

          Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

          Did you mean the double entendre?

          At least with an office subscription I am not pegged to a single device.

          1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

            Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

            "At least with an office subscription I am not pegged to a single device."

            True, but the user-friendly solution is to allow multi-device licenses on the standalone product, not to enforce a subscription in order to get that feature.

            1. MiguelC Silver badge

              Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

              Just this week I found out that Excel functions "MinIfs" and "MaxIfs" are available in Excel from version 2016 forward, but only in the Office 364 subscription-based ones.

              Why? Because $$$!

        2. hedgie Bronze badge

          Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

          I ditched Adobe for Affinity and am happier for it.[1] The less I say about GIMP, the better, but I"m at the point where I do have to do any image editing on Linux, I'll use Krita instead even though it's painting software because at least it can handle high bit depth and has a UI that people actually put thought into. For real photo work, I don't just need high bit depth but also non-destructive editing like adjustment layers which means using something proprietary.

          At least with office software, my needs are light enough that I can just use LO or Calligra or Apple's stuff without a problem.

          [1] It also means that one is anchored more firmly to Windows or Mac than with Photoshop because according to WineHQ it's unusable if having to use WINE.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

          Affinity can't write AI or EPS files reliably.

          LibreOffice Calc can't compete with the functionality of Excel. Not much use for engineering or finance. And no sign of box or jitter plots which Excel has had for years. And it's certainly not as intuitive requiring extra time to achieve the same result as Excel. Fine for running your home budget though.

          Krita is a comparable to Gimp with a better interface, though unbelievably, it doesn't have a print function.

          1. hedgie Bronze badge

            Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

            Aah. I'm more into photography and digital painting than I am vector stuff, so I wasn't aware of those shortcomings with Affinity, since I mostly use it for photography.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

            "LibreOffice Calc can't compete with the functionality of Excel. Not much use for engineering or finance. And no sign of box or jitter plots which Excel has had for years. And it's certainly not as intuitive requiring extra time to achieve the same result as Excel. Fine for running your home budget though."

            Have you ever tried LO Calc? It's exactly the same functionality as Excel, down to the formula and function syntax. "Not as intuitive" when switching from the (shudder) Ribbon, but it's essentially the interface of MS Office '97, with the bonus of having not changed that interface significantly in years.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

              re: Have you ever tried LO Calc?

              Yes, I use it frequently. Hence my comment. Let me know when it can do box plots.

              It also can't centre text across multiple horizontal cells - it merges them together, which is a big no-no for power users. And apparently importing .xls(x) files that are centred across cells results in them being merged on import. :/

              I agree LO Calc wants to to have the same functionality as Excel but it that is only true if comparing it with Excel 2007.

              FTR FreeOffice Planmaker is a closer to a modern version of Excel and whilst it can centre text across cells, it can only do box plots if the data is in some predefined (unintuitive) layout first.

        4. BartyFartsLast Silver badge

          Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

          There's plenty of 'perpetual' licences that turned out to not quite meet my definition of perpetual when the companies got a bit stuck for cash or were bought out by the like of Autocad or Adobe..

      2. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

        "There are alternative, you know: LibreOffice and Gimp for starters."

        For my needs, LibreOffice and Gimp are alternatives in the same way that rollerskates are an alternative to a car.

      3. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Linux

        Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

        "At home there are very few things other than games that *require* WIndows."

        tax and accounting software, the occasional windows-related development (customer needs), and certain media creation (Cakewalk) for me. Otherwise, winders box just idles.

        FreeBSD and Linux for everything else. And a lot of the above can be done in a VM.

        Some windows games also work while running in a VM, especially older games.

      4. nightflier

        Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

        Use the tools that work for you. LibreOffice and Gimp both exceed my needs. I've produced a lot of tutorials and presentations with them, but then I'm not a professional graphic artist.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: "I hate that I don't own Microsoft Office or Photoshop. "

          "Use the tools that work for you. LibreOffice and Gimp both exceed my needs."

          I chucked M$ Office when I didn't need to be interoperable with everybody in a company. LibreOffice works great and I can send files that people can read with M$, but I mainly create documents that are going to be used within my office or printed/output as a PDF. I do use Photoshop and Lightroom since I have a whole workflow built around them that would be laborious to recreate with a new package. I'm very unhappy they doubled the price of photography package subscription and at some point I will have the time to evaluate other software that I can buy straight out. There's not a lot from one version to the next of PS that's a huge benefit for my work/profit. I haven't updated the version I have installed for over a year now although it does nag about it.

    2. nonoj

      Another vote here for Affinity and one for DxO as well. Affinity Photo replaced Adobe Photoshop, Affinity Designer replaced Adobe Illustrator, Affinity Publisher replaced Adobe InDesign. Affinity has no Lightroom product so I use DxO PhotoLab to replace Adobe Lightroom. These Affinity and DxO applications more than adequately do the job without subscriptions; I own each piece of software I use outright and only upgrade when I see a reason to.

      Besides all that, my clients couldn’t care less which applications I use. They’re only interested in the unique style, level of quality and professional business relationship I offer. And the responsibility for providing those fall for the most part on me - not the tools I use.

      1. hedgie Bronze badge

        I'm going to have to check out DxO. I haven't used that one yet, and most of the photos I've been working on lately are from film scans so it hasn't been an issue yet. I'd be happy with Darktable if it weren't for the fact that it seems to crash if you look at it funny.

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        "Affinity Photo replaced Adobe Photoshop,"

        For me, it's Lightroom that is the key element and that works very well with PS to hand files back and forth. I could edit with anything, but managing all of my photos is a big key to making money. I've licensed photos for use in a couple of books by being able to find what they wanted and send them a contact sheet in the shortest amount of time. They admitted that another photographer finally came up with some photos they liked better, but it took too long to get them and the licensing got too bogged down. Perfection is the enemy of good enough. My photos were good enough, but the business was better than the other guy. It also takes me very little time to find images and get sample back to other potential customers. The sales rate is often very low so minimizing the time it takes for me to submit is very important.

    3. Dog11

      A happy life?

      You do realize that HP's 'for life' offer depends on exactly whose life is under discussion. Yours? HP's? The arbitrarily determined service life of your printer?

      1. Ian Johnston Silver badge

        Re: A happy life?

        I have one of the TomTom satnavs with free updates for life, until they were withdraw because the device had reached the end of its life ... because updates were no longer available.

        By an odd coincidence, it started acting very oddly at a GPS epoch rollover two months later. Took twenty minutes to get a fix from a warm start (now down to three minutes) and doesn't display the time, though it knows it. Funny that. Surely they wouldn't end-of-life tens of thousands of devices rather than fix a bug in the code.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: A happy life?

          My Garmin SatNav went EOL a good few years ago. But it still gets the "Lifetime Map Updates" as advertised. I think it must be at least 10 years old now, if not older. I really can't remember! The battery is shagged and it rarely manages to lock onto a traffic update signal these days, but it still does it's job, working under voice control and no need to report back to the mothership every time a turn it on.

        2. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: A happy life?

          I also have a TomTom SatNav, a cheap entry level one with free updates for life. I stopped using it some time ago when I started getting cars with builtin nav.

          Last week I hired a Transit with no sat nav. I dug out the old TomTom and plugged it in, pulled up the TomTom websites and a message "your map data is over 42 months old, please update".

          Clicked update, and it loaded maps from October 2023.

          Also, if you connect to website it downloads the latest satellite data for quicker fix.

          I understand some TOMTOM sat navs with western europe maps sstopped updating because all western europe data outgrew the available storage on the device, but it is still possible to down load a single country.

          A few years back there were a load of lies in tabloids about stopping updates for eol devices. TomTom tried to clarify, but the dirty media ignored it, and loads of thickos sucked it up.

        3. BartyFartsLast Silver badge

          Re: A happy life?

          Might not be a bug in 'their' code, it could be in the GPS chipset.

          It can be worked around I guess but you could also make a reasonable case that its expected life was until the GPS epoch.

    4. MachDiamond Silver badge

      "I baulk at the idea that actually "owning" a house these days requires 2 substantial incomes and a mountain of savings, otherwise the rental market is the only way to go."

      If you want a mansion, you have to pay mansion prices. If you want to live in the big city, you have to pay big city prices.

      I bought a house for a tiny bit of money. The seller was somebody I had worked for that inherited the property from his dad and the seller saw it as more of a liability than an asset. I had to do a bunch of work to get it livable and 8 years on it still needs things done but it's paid off. Since the sun made an appearance this morning, I put together some more pull-out organizers for the kitchen. Every bit of work I do on the house adds that much more value. This is not the house I'd have ever had in my dreams or wishes, but for the price, I would have been crazy to not buy it. There aren't big companies paying monster salaries in the area, but after leaving the rocket company I was able to transition into having my own business since the cost of living is so low and I don't have a house payment (the property tax is really low if you want to call that a housing cost). If you want to own a home, you have to think creatively. Maybe that means moving someplace with lower prices and taking a hit on the sort of salary you can earn but, it's not what you make, it's what you keep.

      The ink subscription is a complete scam.

  5. sabroni Silver badge

    Perhaps it's time for vehicle makers to take note.

    Why?

    A survey of randoms saying they don't like something is worth precisely fuck all.

    Vehicle makers will take note when it starts to affect the bottom line.

    1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

      Re: Perhaps it's time for vehicle makers to take note.

      "A survey of randoms saying they don't like something is worth precisely fuck all."

      Yes and no. A recent petition proposing that Paula Vennells be quite rightly stripped of her CBE got more than a million responses and was likely instrumental in her making the decision to jump before she was pushed and hand it back; as well as showing various up-for-reelection politicians that the Post Office scandal might actually be worth spending some time and energy on instead of ignoring.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Perhaps it's time for vehicle makers to take note.

        And it did happen not because of the petition but because of the TV show...

        1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

          Re: Perhaps it's time for vehicle makers to take note.

          "And it did happen not because of the petition but because of the TV show..."

          It happened because of many things. The TV show, the petition, the Telegraph campaign...

      2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Perhaps it's time for vehicle makers to take note.

        "A recent petition proposing that Paula Vennells be quite rightly stripped of her CBE got more than a million responses and was likely instrumental in her making the decision to jump before she was pushed and hand it back;"

        On the other hand, as others have pointed out, sending back the trinket is only a symbolic thing. The award is bestowed by the monarch and can only be withdrawn by the monarch. It's usually handled by a committee, and it's quite rare for an honour to be withdrawn. It may well happen in this case, but it might take some time, might not happen at all, but whatever happens, she still holds that honour until and unless it's officially taken from her. Her returning of the representative physical symbol of the honour might swing the committee into action though.

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge

          Re: Perhaps it's time for vehicle makers to take note.

          Plus it costs her basically nothing to lose it.

          Claw back her bonuses. Her contract explicitly permits it.

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Perhaps it's time for vehicle makers to take note.

      "Vehicle makers will take note when it starts to affect the bottom line."

      like EV mandates being threatened in the USA - even the UNIONS know it could result in the companies going titsup and them being out of a job.

      I had already considered doing what I can to keep my 24 year old car going indefinitely. Add the tracking crap and I'll end up cruising the junkyards for ' fixers ' before I buy a NEW one...

      1. J. Cook Silver badge

        Re: Perhaps it's time for vehicle makers to take note.

        Personally, I'm planning on keeping my 2011 truck going as long as humanly possible, and if Edison Motors is able to build up an installer network for their 1 ton pickup retrofit kits, I'll be trolling for an 80's or 90's era 1 ton truck as a restoration / EV conversion project.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Perhaps it's time for vehicle makers to take note.

          "Personally, I'm planning on keeping my 2011 truck going as long as humanly possible, "

          The parts market may become a bigger profit center for manufacturers so it could wind up be very possible to keep an older vehicle that was popular enough on the road for quite a long time. When my Buick Century blew a head gasket, I could have had that repaired, but with all of the little things such as door seals that I could not find, there wasn't value in having the engine work done. If GM had the door seal, plastic bits and pieces that dry out and snap and other parts that age, I would still be driving that car. It's a POS 4-door sedan, but with the V-6 it got very good fuel economy and was like driving the sofa for comfort.

        2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: Perhaps it's time for vehicle makers to take note.

          My 1992 truck (a Toyota) is still running just fine. When my car (2015 Volvo XC70, pre-touchscreen) gets too expensive to keep running I'll have to replace it, because the truck isn't suitable for Interstate driving or long trips; but the replacement car will be a used model of some sort. I don't know of any car being made today that I'd want to own.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Perhaps it's time for vehicle makers to take note.

          We have two 2008 vehicles I plan on keeping running for as long as I reasonably can. I never intend to buy a new car. Why, when I could pick up a 2-year-old one at half the price? But when the time comes, the ability to turn off communication with the mothership will definitely be a requirement.

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Perhaps it's time for vehicle makers to take note.

        "like EV mandates being threatened in the USA - even the UNIONS know it could result in the companies going titsup and them being out of a job."

        I'm not so sure that Sinn Fein had that in mind during the last strike since all of the additional compensation the US makers had to cave into has been deducted from the development budgets for new EV's. I would not be terribly surprise if Ford or GM rebadged a BYD for the US market. Both have had rebadged vehicles from Japanese makers in the past. My Ford Courier was a Mazda and later Rangers were also re-badged Mazdas. A friend's Chevy Luv was an Isuzu. Now I've really dated myself. The US is so big that a new brand has to spend a lot of money to install a sales, service and support network. This makes partnering with somebody a great way to get their foot in the door.

    3. Jan 0

      Re: Perhaps it's time for vehicle makers to take note.

      I don't want them to take note. I want some lesser known vehicle maker to quietly get on with selling basic vehicles to people prepared to look for them.

  6. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Meh

    Not coming here

    I'll stick to dumb cars that do what I want when I want it - which consists of getting me from A to B safely in a reasonable time. During a journey I'll probably spend about 10% of the time concentrating on what I'm doing, and the other 90% assessing what everyone else on the road is doing.

    1. Mike 137 Silver badge

      Re: Not coming here

      "I'll stick to dumb cars that do what I want when I want it"

      But very soon our dumb cars will be old enough to qualify (here in the UK at least) for us forking out something in order of £12 ($15) for every day we want to drive in town (based on increasingly stringent 'emissions' standards). As far as I'm aware there's no full EV that doesn't phone home and very few without "subscription features". So we pay the vendor or the govt., one way or the other.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Not coming here

        "But very soon our dumb cars will be old enough to qualify (here in the UK at least) for us forking out something in order of £12 ($15) for every day we want to drive in town"

        If a town doesn't want me to bring my money to their traders that's fine, I can get along without them. In fact, given that many towns have been anti-motorist for years it might explain why they now have so few traders.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Not coming here

          " In fact, given that many towns have been anti-motorist for years it might explain why they now have so few traders."

          The US is very anti-small business. If a town is hostile towards the businesses there, they will shut down forcing people to buy online. As people that used to shop locally get more used to shopping online, they'll continue to do more of it and there's another local shop that can't make ends meet anymore and closes down. Pretty soon, all that's left is an expensive corner shop and a few misc traders that have a shop that's more of a hobby than a living. I know where I live there are only a few retail shops and most of them have had the same employees for years. There's no jobs open for kids and they wind up getting in trouble instead. When the city legalized growing pot, all of the industrial estate landlords booted out the businesses, jacked the rent by 4-5 and went after growers. The jobs are seasonal and only open to over 18's with no criminal record. It's crap work too paying no more than minimum wage. So much for anybody elected to the city council having any brains. Those grow operations are also folding. Turns out there isn't any money in it with black market product so much cheaper.

          1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

            Re: Not coming here

            I'll just note that I've lived in the US my entire life, and in every place I've lived — in Massachusetts, Vermont, Ohio, Nebraska, Michigan, and New Mexico — there have been a lot of local small retail businesses, and a lot of entry-level jobs available in them. These days, in the towns near the Mountain Fastness, we're having rather a labor crisis, in fact (though that's very much exacerbated by the fact that short-term rentals have driven housing prices through the roof and made even jobs paying twice the state minimum wage insufficient for many people's basic needs).

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Not coming here

        My lads 21 year 4.4 litre V8 BWM saloon is ULEZ compliant. There is some fun stuff out there that can be used in smoke-ville.

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge

          Re: Not coming here

          It's all the family cars that got banned.

          You know, the second hand Volvos, VWs etc that normal people bought to take their kids to school on the way to work.

          Most of the Chelsea Tractors are unaffected.

      3. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Re: Not coming here

        very soon our dumb cars will be old enough to qualify (here in the UK at least) for us forking out something in order of £12 ($15) for every day we want to drive in town (based on increasingly stringent 'emissions' standards)

        In most of the US that's not a concern. Michigan and New Mexico, the last couple of states I've lived in, don't even have vehicle inspections (state-wide; some local jurisdictions may impose their own rules). You can basically put any damn thing on the road if it has a VIN and a title.

        Around here, you'll see many used cars advertised as having a "New Mexico windshield", which means it has one or more large cracks (lots of gravel roads). People will leave 'em that way for years. Exhaust leaks? No problem. Failed or bypassed emissions controls? Eh, whatever. No tread on the tires? It's your lookout, buddy.

  7. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Windows

    "better insurance rates"

    And that is the carrot that will lure most people in. It's the heroin hit that will make the rest pass. It's the golden excuse for jacking everyone into the Matrix of Companies and getting them to actually ask for the procedure.

    I'm an old fart now, barely a decade from retirement. I will easily resist, but my resistance doesn't matter because the upcoming generation, the one that already lives with their smartphones grafted to their hands, will likely sign up to this scheme without even blinking.

    And they're the ones who tell you that it's for the greater good . . .

    1. Boo Radley

      Re: "better insurance rates"

      My insurance company sent me a dongle to plug into the OBD port in my car to assess my driving, to optimize my insurance payment. I tried several of these schemes from several different companies, all of them put me into a more expensive bracket than my driving record alone did. Obviously I declined to use any of them and stuck with State Farm, with whomever I've been for 20+ years. Even the "cheapo" companies here in Texas were more expensive than State Farm, with less coverage. Internet connected cars and appliances are a total scam, along with all the subscriptions associated with them.

      1. Andy the ex-Brit

        Re: "better insurance rates"

        I've been with State Farm for over 35 years now. I did get on their Drive Safe and Save program a few years ago, because it will always lower your rate, never raise it. I drive a MINI and like to go around corners a bit fast (when safe to do so) so I get dinged for that, but still I get about a $15 discount every six months, so I'm up several hundred dollars by now.

        1. IgorS

          Re: "better insurance rates"

          >I get about a $15 discount every six months

          Your insurance must be really cheap for you to care about the difference!

          1. Andy the ex-Brit

            Re: "better insurance rates"

            I think each car costs me maybe $200 per six months, so it's close to a 10% discount.

      2. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

        Re: put me into a more expensive bracket than my driving record alone did

        Exactly. The fact that I've not crashed or had any infringements or penalties in the last 25 years is really all an insurer needs to know about my driving. No need to know the minutae of my acceleration, braking and steering, where I go, how often I go there, or how fast I get there.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: put me into a more expensive bracket than my driving record alone did

          "No need to know the minutae of my acceleration, braking and steering, where I go, how often I go there, or how fast I get there."

          Their scoring can be quite opaque so you don't know what they'll ding you for and there will be no way for you to object to anything. My record is squeaky clean so there's little point in installing any spy device. I'd only do that if I had some incidents that were "totally not my fault and I can prove it". I'm a boring driver. I've found that it saves on petrol, tyres, brakes and tickets.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: "better insurance rates"

      Given that insurance companies are largely run by weasels that ought to be a clear enough warning for anyone.

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: "better insurance rates"

      "the upcoming generation, the one that already lives with their smartphones grafted to their hands, will likely sign up to this scheme without even blinking."

      That'll be the ones already in the position of not being able to afford car insurance without have a telemetry spewing black box fitted into whatever cheap car they can afford. That ship has already sailed. The "voluntary" insurance black box is already pretty much financially mandated by raising the insurance prices, at least for new and young drivers. They are growing up i that world and don't know any different.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A USian colleague of ours claimed this morning that the remote access to his car comes with 3-years from the point you buy it, and then becomes a subscription service thereafter. There was of course also the nonsense with certain a German manufacturer selling subscription access to the "sport" mode on the ECU.

    A similar situation exists for many EV chargers. I will NOT get an EV until every charge point in the land has a bog-standard credit card slot. No, I will not download that 3.6GB app via the QR code plastered on the side of the charger just to use it (and every charger has it's own app...) Noting that scammers have quite rightly already pasted posters with other QR codes of their choosing over the top.

    Only two words are suitable in response, fuck and off.

    My current car, bought second hand, neither the previous owner or dealer had bothered clearing the sat nav. The home address of the previous owner is still saved in that computer. I made damn sure that on sale of my previous car that such things had been cleared out.

    Digital has it's place, the influx into everything is not welcome. If I am a luddite for not wanting my lunchtime walk tracked; consider the fate of certain Russian officers whose movements were being tracked on Strava. An evolution of consumer rights concerning data protection is something that I would love to see in manifestos. GDPR is a start, but it requires considerable evolution.

    1. werdsmith Silver badge

      A Honda Connect subscription used to be 1 year free with a new car and then paid after that.

      Very few people took up the subscription, so it is now 3 years free.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Honda's UK sales - through the floor (I believe more of a decline in the last 10 years or so than any other manufacturer).

        Rule 1 of good business. Give the customers what they want.

        1. Mike 137 Silver badge

          Rule 1 of good business?

          Actually these days, persuade the punter to want what you're flogging, and preferably lease it to them.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Rule 1 of good business?

            This is their object. from my PoV their attempts at persuasion are more likely than not going to be counter-productive.

        2. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
          Joke

          We don't have flying cars, do we?

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            "We don't have flying cars, do we?"

            Underground homes are rare too so I'm happy that cars don't fly.

        3. Someone Else Silver badge

          Rule 1 of good business. Give the customers shareholders what they want.

          (There, FTFY)

          Rule 1a: If what the shareholders want is also what the customers want, then good for you! If not, see Rule 1.

        4. werdsmith Silver badge

          Rule 1 of good business. Give the customers what they want.

          Honda suffered bad publicity when Toyota maintained their Burnaston factory, Nissan stayed in the NorthEast but Honda closed their Swindon plant.

    2. DS999 Silver badge

      Those car subscription services

      Can't be free because part of it is to pay for service for the car's data SIM.

      What I'd like to see is cars include an eSIM, and provide an interface on that ubiquitous touchscreen that allows you to provide your own data subscription. If you add that on to the data plan you already pay for, then data for the car becomes "free", and it would reduce the price of subscribing to the car's services. They still aren't going to be worth it, but least it won't be something utterly ridiculous like $399/year.

    3. MachDiamond Silver badge

      "I will NOT get an EV until every charge point in the land has a bog-standard credit card slot."

      In the US, it's Tesla that doesn't have payment points on the chargers. There are ways to sign up for automatic billing via your car's VIN being sent, but that's not something I'd be happy about. I'd also like to see chargers associated with retail businesses able to be paid for using cash. At the very least, if the network isn't working but the power is on, you could charge your car. I'd think that it would be a good deal for the retailer as well. It gives the driver a reason to go in and perhaps buy something aside from only using their restroom. I see it as the same with pay-at-the-pump petrol. Petrol is often the lowest margin thing they sell so having people go inside where they might pick up high margin drinks and snacks is good for them.

      1. DS999 Silver badge

        Hopefully the price for making their charging system the US standard is that they have to conform to some sort of standard for billing, with ordinary credit card / contactless for Apple/Google Pay being one of the options if you don't want to use whatever stupid app your car or the charger's owner wants to steer you towards.

      2. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        "if the network isn't working but the power is on, you could charge your car"

        You mean like using the home charger cable? No network needed.

        1. Fred Daggy Silver badge
          FAIL

          Cable doesn't reach ...

          Cable not long enough to reach the 8th floor, 100m from road. Please advise.

          1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

            Re: Cable doesn't reach ...

            OP's comment was: "I'd also like to see chargers associated with retail businesses able to be paid for using cash. At the very least, if the network isn't working but the power is on, you could charge your car."

            Chargers associated with retail businesses, able to be paid for using cash, when power is on but the network isn't working. It's a niche case. Extrapolating this with an 8th floor, 100m from road business takes it into the 1000ths-of-a-percent probability range.

            But yes well done you, for identifying a situation that 1 in a million people are likely to actually come across and using that to pooh-pooh a solution that works for everybody else. Fail yourself.

          2. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Cable doesn't reach ...

            "Cable not long enough to reach the 8th floor, 100m from road. Please advise."

            Move if you want an EV.

  9. Kevin Johnston

    The older the better

    While I am fully behind the concept of not buying anything which needs a regular payment to continue to be usable, my motive for buying an older car is even simpler.

    We now have things like Euro NCAP which supposedly makes cars safer but it does that by allowing the car to take control based on a set of overly focused scenarios. One of the biggest challenges is the bit where the camera see you getting to close to a white line without having used an indicator so takes over the steering to move you away from it - straight into the pothole/vehicle you were trying to avoid. I can understand the thinking behind these but it seems the implementation assumes we all live in areas with standard width, well maintained and well marked roads. If you are outside such a fantasy town then your 'single track with passing places' country lane is going to give the car a complete nervous breakdown and there is never an option to shut it off long term, just for the current journey.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The older the better

      I would suggest you check out some other manufacturers. Some lane monitoring and collision avoidance systems are definitely better than others. My relatively recent Subaru can have all of that turned off entirely with one physical push button by the side of the dash. It is nowhere near as aggressive as some of the other monitoring systems I have seen, and not something I've needed to turn off. But that the option is immediately there is, I think, what you are looking for. Over Christmas I did a load of driving down the nowhere B-roads of Northumberland, which if you have used them, you'll know that being in the middle for visibility and road surface reasons is generally a good idea - slowing down and moving over for traffic ofc. Said systems did not interfere with me doing this.

      A friend's Skoda is particularly obnoxious. Nice enough car, but try and cross a line without signalling and it'll interfere with steering and/or braking. Obviously, there are situations where this is correct; but there are many where it's really not. I would be curious as to how many accidents are linked to such systems making bad decisions?

      On the other hand, one only has to drive 3 minutes in any direction to see some piss poor driving. Against that backdrop, perhaps it's better that such incompetent drivers have their steering and braking done for them. Especially the morons that think they can drive competently while messaging on their phone.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: The older the better

        "one only has to drive 3 minutes in any direction to see some piss poor driving"

        That may be the cars taking over, of course.

      2. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

        Re: The older the better

        They get worse. I moved my daughter cross country using a rental Freightliner box truck. Its systems were both aggressive and poorly tuned. More than once the brakes slammed on hard as I was passing an off ramp while I was middle of the lane. The speed limit on the road was 70, the ramp speed was 25, and the truck decided I was taking the ramp when I wasn't. What was bad is I was driving in a city bypass at rush hour, and the truck slamming the brakes almost caused me to be rear ended more than once. And, the truck was constantly alerting me to "dangerous" situations. It was like being under attack nonstop with the constant alerts blaring directly in my ear (it was like a piercing, high pitched alarm clock the neighbors could hear), brakes engaging and wheel shaking, to the point that I actually spent time disabling the system. Once disabled, the truck became docile, stopped constantly trying to think for me, and the rest of the drive was relatively pleasant.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The older the better

          Sounds just like my Skoda. It's probably the last new car I'll ever buy, I think I'll go for used classics from now on.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The older the better

      Visiting my Dad in a hire car with an aggressive lane keeping system. There is a narrow arch rail bridge you need to drive in the middle of the road to get through. The car objected to this and tried to ram me into the side of the bridge. I found how to disable it, but have to do it every time you start the car.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: The older the better

        Problem is, when you exaggerate an anecdote like this, there are many of us reading who have experience with these cars and we know it is bullshit.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The older the better

          No exaggeration. It steered back towards the bridge and required excessive pressure on the wheel to go in the intended direction.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The older the better

            And if you don't fight it and let it continue towards the bridge pillar, it will then slam on the brakes while blaring the Collision Alert warning, resulting in you being rear-ended by the vehicle behind, which is being driven without any driver "aids".

        2. Ghostman

          Re: The older the better

          I've had to disable all those "features " on my wife's' car. Driving on the interstate it brakes any time someone comes between you and the car you've maintained what the car thinks is the "correct" distance, and it doesn't do it in a nice way. Try to move over a lane, the steering wheel would actually fight you to go over the line. The worst one was the "You seem to be tired, please pull over now" messages. The car would try to make you pull to the emergency lane. I've got experience with these cars. You obviously don't.

        3. JT_3K

          Re: The older the better

          How about the 1st gen Toyota C-HR I had on hire a few years back when my employer made me rent cars to go on longer drives than take my own. The one with the "follows the car in front" part of cruise control that you can't stop it doing and I thought I'd give it a go? When I was queuing to get off the M60 and the car left a big enough gap (on shortest setting) that a last-minute commuter thought they'd take advantage and cut in whilst doing ~15mph and gently decelerating. Problem is that the car disabled cruise control without beeping/dashboard warning and in doing so, didn't brake as expected and nearly had me rear end them.

          Then there's my wife's 2017 Mk7.5 Golf GTI, which without fail almost every time we drive home a certain way, throws a fit at a particular s-bend taken very gently at 35mph (on a 40mph main road that used to be 60mph around 20yrs ago), screeches, lights up the dashboard like a Christmas tree and decides we're about to have a collision, with enough voracity that we jump every time and nearly swerve in to the corner in doing so because it's that surprising.

          Perhaps we could consider my 2016 BMW G12 740Ld, which despite me doing 20,000 miles a year, has never once warned me of a collision: (a) before I've seen and acted on the impending issue well ahead of me; or (b) when I've had a (very occasional) near miss because of whatever reason. The same system has gone off around once per week on motorways when I come to pass another car with us both driving sensibly and no issue. It also disables itself after ~45 minutes of driving in rain because it decides the camera can't see properly.

          Ok then. Let's take "I know better" out of the equation and consider that the BMW CCA outright banned the new M3 in ~2014(?) from taking part in track days as the systems were dangerous (their take, not mine), couldn't be disabled and were cutting in despite being "turned off", causing several near misses.

          Get your head out of your ass, jackass.

    3. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: The older the better

      One of the biggest challenges is the bit where the camera see you getting to close to a white line without having used an indicator so takes over the steering to move you away from it - straight into the pothole/vehicle you were trying to avoid

      I've driven several makes of cars with this feature and more. It doesn't work like that at all. You feel the steering in your hands kind of reminding you and urging you to move away from the line, but it doesn't take over and is overridden with minimal resistance. If you ignored it because you weren't paying attention to your driving (like falling asleep or looking at a phone) then it would guide keep the car in lane. It's also easy to switch off.

      Newer cars have more engineered in safety, energy absorption is improving all the time. If somebody driving carefully in a revered old classic meets an idiot in a new car who causes a collision then the likelihood is that the idiot walks away with ears ringing from airbag infation. The classic car driver will have an extended stay in hospital, if they are lucky.

      1. Ghostman

        Re: The older the better

        I don't believe you have experienced any of that. I've driven Fords, Toyota's, Chevys, Dodges, Nissans, a lot of different models while looking for a new car. Nothing like what you describe.

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge

          Re: The older the better

          In my experience, it's either a "fake rumble strip" or a pressure similar to wheel centering, or perhaps a banked corner.

          But then I'm not in the USA. Maybe it's different there.

    4. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

      Re: The older the better

      "...so takes over the steering to move you away from it - straight into the pothole/vehicle you were trying to avoid"

      It doesn't 'take over' anything; it gives a gentle nudge. Pressure in the right direction, if you will. Yes this can be a bit nannying (I have mine turned off for that reason) but it's a world away from the Rise of the Robots you're implying.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The older the better

      I “hacked” my car to disable lane keeping by default. Similar situation - the lane keeping would often decide you were close to the kerb or the central line (even if you were dead central in the lane), but it was 50/50 whether it would turn you towards what it was warning you about or away from it. It would also get very confused in places where 2 lanes split into 3 etc, and try to flick you into the lane you didn’t want to be in.. Also had to disable the warning light that stayed lit if the system was disabled.

      Welcome to the future of safety :/

  10. Andy The Hat Silver badge

    Big brother is creeping up behind you.

    I wonder when "authorities" will start demanding car data to evidence basic driving violations - speeding, not indicating before a turn, splashing through a puddle and soaking a pedestrian, wearing incorrectly coloured trousers whilst driving ... If the data is there, either by direct data logs from speedometers etc or via footage recorded by camera or audio devices, if can only be a matter if time.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Big brother is creeping up behind you.

      If you smash your car, the cops can and will already collect things like the ECU log. It will be immediately obvious what your control inputs have been on the run into an accident.

      Dashcams are obviously pretty common and usually usable as evidence as well.

      I am reminded of a feature I saw in the Apache gunships when I had the honour of sitting in the back seat of one a few years - the big red button with "MASTER ZEROISE" on it. The idea being that in event of the chopper going down in hostile territory you can smash that button to destroy data devices.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Big brother is creeping up behind you.

      Ha ha

      I never wear trousers while driving!

    3. Cav Bronze badge

      Re: Big brother is creeping up behind you.

      "if can only be a matter if time."

      And rightly so. Easy to avoid. Don't speed, don't turn without indicating and be considerate of other road users...

      1. T. F. M. Reader

        Re: Big brother is creeping up behind you.

        Don't speed

        In Wales???

        1. Cav Bronze badge

          Re: Big brother is creeping up behind you.

          Yes, why? If you don't like the current speed limits then vote for different politicians.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Big brother is creeping up behind you.

            Vote differently ? You haven't been to any APPGs, and rubbed shoulders with them. They've all been brainwashed by the lobbyists.

      2. Alf Garnett

        Re: Big brother is creeping up behind you.

        Don't speed sounds like a good idea until the information the car's computer has isn't up to date. For example: a stretch of road where the speed limit was reduced 10 or 15 mph for maintenance. The repairs are completed and the speed limit raised to its previous number. Your car's computer finds out you're driving through that area, but it didn't get the update that the work was completed and the speed limit raised. It rats you out to the police and insurance company for your alleged speeding. You get a speeding ticket in the mail and a notice your insurance rates are going up.

      3. Ian Johnston Silver badge

        Re: Big brother is creeping up behind you.

        There is no legal obligation to indicate before turning.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Big brother is creeping up behind you.

          There is no legal obligation to indicate before turning.

          This is true and it's also unwise to trust the indication of other drivers.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @Andy The Hat - Re: Big brother is creeping up behind you.

      Even better, try to imagine the day when based on real-time telemetry your insurance will be cancelled few seconds before you crash into that tree.

      1. Cav Bronze badge

        Re: @Andy The Hat - Big brother is creeping up behind you.

        Wouldn't pass any standard of reasonable test.

        1. J. Cook Silver badge

          Re: @Andy The Hat - Big brother is creeping up behind you.

          Yeah, but the insurance companies have rather a lot of money to hire lawyers and fight it until you are utterly broken mentally and financially. At least in the US, anyway...

          At least one of the companies here has been caught canceling someone's insurance because a person's teenaged child was not on their policy, despite the fact that the teenager has no wish to drive the car, the parent does not give them the keys, etc.

    5. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Big brother is creeping up behind you.

      "I wonder when "authorities" will start demanding car data to evidence basic driving violations"

      In the US, it wouldn't be useful. If the officer says you were speeding, the judge is going to side with them if you fight the ticket unless you can show certified documentation that you weren't. They don't need your car to rat you out for simple things. Where there could be an issue is if the data in your car is subpoenaed so they® have a record of where you were at a given date time, moving/stopped, on the phone, driving aggressively, number of people in the car, change in the number of people, etc, etc. That same data might not be admissible in your favor in the same way that a cop can't testify in your favor.

  11. Captain Hogwash Silver badge

    "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

    Why isn't this zero percent? Are they working for the manufacturers or whomever the data is shared with?

    It's absolutely jaw dropping that this is so high.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

      How many of those surveyed understood the question?

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

        In order to understand this one needs to know not only what the actual question was but also the questions leading up to it. https://www.quotes.net/mquote/956752

    2. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

      Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

      I had a conversation with her indoors about this the other day. Her view: if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear; if absolute surveillance saves 1 girl from getting raped, it's worth it.

      As I couldn't find the words to express how stupid I found that statement, and I quite fancied still being married, I chose to just stay quiet. When people actually believe that, there's no convincing them.

      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

        Downvoted by my wife, I see :) :)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

          It was your girlfried mistress, you told me that you were single!

          1. Alf Garnett

            Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

            Be careful guys and keep it in your pants, or you could be next.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNV5X-GBkR8

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

        "When people actually believe that, there's no convincing them."

        Agree fulsomely. Enthuse about how, if it will prevent one girl making a malicious or frivolous allegation ...

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Lord Elpuss - Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

        Trouble is it's not you who decides that you have nothing to hide.

        In the introduction of the 1972 French movie Le Retour du Grand Blond, the narrator is heard saying these prophetic words:

        If observed well enough, every innocent person becomes strange and suspect.

        Or if we go further down the road:

        Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime. -- Lavrentiy Beria.

        1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

          Re: @Lord Elpuss - "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

          ” Trouble is it's not you who decides that you have nothing to hide.“

          Don’t tell me, tell my wife…

        2. Dog11
          Big Brother

          Re: @Lord Elpuss - "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

          Beria wasn't the first...

          "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."

          -attributed to Cardinal Richelieu

      4. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

        As I couldn't find the words to express how stupid I found that statement

        There's a reason you couldn't find those words.

        1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

          Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

          Quite - because there are none.

      5. Richard 12 Silver badge

        Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

        Suggest taking down your curtains and livestreaming the lavatory.

        An extreme example, but it makes the point.

        Everyone has something to hide.

        There's a reason the words "spying" and "creepy" have negative connotations.

        1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

          Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

          "Suggest taking down your curtains and livestreaming the lavatory."

          There are plenty who are into that sort of thing...

    3. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

      Based on the number of people surveyed, 5% would cover more or less the number of people with a security clearance in the USA, who would like to have all the information available, just in case it is needed later.

    4. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: "only five percent believe this surveillance should be unrestricted"

      "Why isn't this zero percent? "

      You get weirdos in every breed.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Be back soon

    I’m just going to the garage to give my old car a hug.

  13. Yorick Hunt Silver badge
    Mushroom

    FWIW...

    There are already data jamming devices available for purchase, made for specific vehicles, to prevent network communication - so if the manufacturer of your particular vehicle has decided to use an e-SIM (thereby making it impossible to physically remove), shenanigans can still be nipped in the bud.

    Of course, I have no doubt that manufacturers will respond by saying "your warranty's no longer valid as you haven't installed updates for the past three hours," but that's where you start relying on your country's consumer protection laws (assuming that your politicians have only been leased and not completely bought).

    I'm waiting to see how long it'll be before they adopt HP/Epson/Canon's attitude with inkjet printers - "fill the car with anything but our preferred partner's petrol (or recharge from our preferred partner's charge point) and your car will need to be towed to a repair centre for an expensive servicing."

  14. Kev99 Silver badge

    Hopefully someone will find a way to block the telemetry as they have with mictosoft's spyware. Either that, or Reynolds Aluminum Foil will start coming in 3 meter wide cartons.

  15. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "This echoes another survey published this week that found many drivers are willing to trade their personal data and privacy... and better insurance rates"

    barnum was right.

  16. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
    Angel

    If your car can spy on your sexual life

    stop having sex in the car!

    1. Andy the ex-Brit

      Re: If your car can spy on your sexual life

      No danger of that for me, I drive a MINI. On the off chance we succeeded, we'd have to be extricated by the fire department.

      1. druck Silver badge

        Re: If your car can spy on your sexual life

        I take it you mean a proper Austin Mini, and not the vaguely similarly shaped SUV that BMW try to pass off as one.

  17. TheRealRoland
    Terminator

    That, and touchscreens and 'haptic' buttons. Really keeping me driving my old Jeep, with just the wind-down windows.

    ETA: a clothes dryer connected to someone's wireless network, generating out 3.5 GB of data a day ?!

    Are you listening, manufacturers?

  18. Sloth77

    80 percent of respondents pair their phone with their car anyway...

    "And 80 percent of respondents pair their phone with their car anyway, allowing data and details of activities to be exchanged between apps and the vehicle and potentially its manufacturer."

    But does the Bluetooth interface allow transferring of data outside of media and address lists?

    I suspect not.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 80 percent of respondents pair their phone with their car anyway...

      But does the Bluetooth interface allow transferring of data outside of media and address lists?

      Even that can be an issue. When test-driving a possible new car my sister asked about the handsfree system, which the salesdroid demonstrated by pairing her phone. Without asking, he authorised the download of contacts - which included details about the children she worked with. She was not pleased, and insisted he demonstrate that they had all been removed from the car. He did so, but clearly did not understand why she was so upset.

    2. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

      Re: 80 percent of respondents pair their phone with their car anyway...

      You suspect wrong. The car has to have access to those lists in order to display them on your screen. All that data is saved in the car and is accessible by the manufacturer even if it shows cleared on your screen. And, people don't even bother clearing the information - rent a car sometime and see all the paired phones.

  19. darkrookie28

    Said the same things about TVs as well.

    Then everyone bought a Smart TV anyways.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      What choice do we have? That's all you can get these days, just don't connect them.

      1. J. Cook Silver badge

        Well, if you want to spend quite a LOT of money, there are industrial TVs built for the entertainment industry and other businesses that are essentially stupid HDMI monitors...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Strong argument for just getting a monitor and attaching devices of choice in place of a "Smart" TV.

        We recently had to replace a failed Samsung that was conveniently, about 1 month out of warranty. Said TV was a spyware shitffest. Roughly half the traffic on our network came from the TV; and PiHole blocked almost all of it.

        The replacement Panasonic is nice enough from a picture POV but the software is to put it mildly, shit. Some expected streaming apps simply not available. Some of those that are there have significant bugs. It's not quite as bad a spyware hole as the Samsung but PiHole is still blocking a fair amount.

        I recall an article a few years ago claiming that it wouldn't be long before we needed AV software for our TV's. They weren't wrong.

        Also, just putting this out there - subscribing to say 3 of the streaming services a year. You can buy a lot of blu-rays for that, if you can live with a bit of delay between releases.

        Other sources of videos are available of course, some less legitimate than others.

        1. druck Silver badge

          Is that the same Panasonic that shows adverts on the TV guide? At least Samsung doesn't do that, but its a few years old, so who knows now.

  20. Mr D Spenser

    will it work unconnected?

    Many of the current crop of vehicles have software that will either cause the vehicle to stop operating or operate in a degraded "safety" mode based on the sensor data it receives. How long until a vehicle refuses to operate unless it has a sat/cell signal? Will some government please pass a regulation that a car can be put into the equivalent of airplane mode of a cell phone and still operate properly.

    1. Denarius Silver badge

      Re: will it work unconnected?

      @Spencer. You mean vast areas of Oz will become new car free ? An upside to Oz crap comms. Wait, did someone say StarLink ?

      Still the EVs will be few so scrub fires after sociallising with goats, pigs and kangaroos will stay few and seriously far between

  21. Del Varner

    Looks like an opportunity!

    Develop your own business to turn off various sensing devices.

  22. martinusher Silver badge

    It will be like "smart" TVs, phones etc

    I'm actually all for connected this and that but -- and its a very big "BUT" -- it seems impossible for this to not go dystopian on you. There's so much money washing around in marketing that any bright idea is immediately hijacked for anti-social purposes such as collecting user data for sale to brokers, selling and managing subscriptions and all the other 101 half-assed schemes to 'monetize' everyday objects that render them effectively unusable.

    The problem appears to be too many people and not enough for them to do -- "Idle hands make the Devil's work", that sort of thing. If you look at the big picture of marketing and regulatory effort much -- most -- of it is self-sustaining, it serves no purpose than to generate business activity. Unfortunately peeling off the useful and essential bits from the great clump of crap that's the B-Ark is likely to prove beyond our capabilities. We may all be doomed after all.

  23. Grogan Silver badge

    If I found a big old car from the 80's in decent enough shape I'd consider it. I HATE the vehicles today. Nannying, ninnymobiles that have expensive parts that replace the whole kit and kaboodle. Fuel lines made of bioplastic that squirrels chew on and cause thousands of dollars in damage (the one piece fuel line alone is $500 just for the part and the cleanup is 2 grand. Gasoline soaked everything... ventilation system, dampening foam... the upholstery doesn't directly get it but still needs cleaning because of the fumes). Those CUNTS absolutely refused to fix it, they will only replace the line. After the second time, I had to go to a real mechanic and get them to put steel braiding around it. Similarly, I had a small exhaust leak last month. Ford said they'd only replace the whole thing for 2 grand. Almost everything is "2 grand" there now. I literally told them to fuck off, and I went to a back yard mechanic for a patch job seeing as Ford wouldn't just replace the pipe. He did it for $50. It's my vehicle now (financing paid off, warranty periods over etc.) and I have no obligation whatsoever to get their parts and service.

    I do think that my next vehicle is going to be an older used one of some sort. I really hate the computerized bullshit on today's cars. I thought I'd like having a console computer for playing music and shit, but even that is stupid. It only reads anally correct ID3V2 tags (i.e. it won't just use filenames and directories) and they didn't think to make files seekable or jumpable. All you can do is go to the next file. That means those songs with 15 minute drum solos that you might want to skip can't go in the library (I often edit tedious things like that out of the track for the car)

    Fuck all that. Give me a carburetor I can clean and adjust. (Remember that? Timing lights? lol)

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      I'm just imaging some old fart in the 1980's whinging on about his old car and how it had a lever on the steering tiller to adjust the engine timing as required and didn't those stupid, easily clogged windscreen washers or "nannying" windscreen wipers when an old rag would do if it got really dirty. And just a manual clutch, but proper "double-declutch", not one of those poncy automatic doodads :-)

      I think it's mandatory in these here parts to end rants like the above with "Git off ma lawn you pesky kids"

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Yes, a nice manual choke to forget to switch off so the car car rich-run for 100 miles.

        1. Denarius Silver badge

          @werdsmith

          Instead of an automatic choke that chokes, all the B* time if my 1970s cars (in the 1970s) were any example. Installing a manual choke on a 4WD replacing the autochoke made it easier to start, halved the fuel consumption, you get my drift.

      2. Denarius Silver badge

        @JB

        Nein kamerad. I remember sitting in cars with manual wipers. Driving tractors with no sync so double declutching and Citroens with manual spark advance. When cars got user friendly items like auto windscreen wipers, automatic gear boxes and electronic ignitions it was seen as progress. Even engine management systems were a great step forward. Howls of complaint only started when uncommanded actions started, like having to fight steering to avoid potholes, craters and idiots. Even worse are the constant distractions of beeps, hoots etc. Since 2010 INMHO, vehicles have got user unfriendly. Interestingly, the complaints come from all age groups in my rural paradise, not just we matures.

  24. Alf Garnett

    Don't grass me up

    I don't want my car grassing me up to the police so they can send me speeding tickets. On the 4th of this month, you car reported you were driving 56mph in a 55mph zone for 5.27 miles. On the 5th you drove 82mph in an 80 mph zone for 25 miles. No doubt because of mandatory insurance laws, the car would also sqeal to the insurance company. They would inform me that my rates were going up or my policy would be canceled. With my luck, they'd probably cancel my policy. During the day at work, the insurance company would email me saying they were canceling my policy effective immediately. When I got in the car to drive home after work, the computer wouldn't let me start the car because it knew I had no insurance. To get home, I'd have to immediatly find another insurane company and pay whatever outrageous amount they wanted.

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    3G cars?

    These cars that phone home, are they all on 4G? I assume older ones are using 3G and therefore will surely be nobbled when that network is shut off.

    Until then I'll keep driving my 1990s Honda which has so little computing inside it there isn't even MPG readout.

    1. TheRealRoland

      Re: 3G cars?

      The 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee I drive used to use 3G, which has been switched off here in the US, so no more connected stuff. Bought the car in 2018, never used the connected stuff anyways. It did phone home to the mothership with some OTA updates, which also could have been installed via USB instead.

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Chinese cars it is then.

    Good value without the surveillance technology. Only available in western markets ironically.

    Western auto manufacturers will be screaming for protectionism before long. Or lobbying lawmakers to delay climate change legislation for at least another century.

    They don't realise they will be shortly be competing like they've never done before. And the jury is already out on whether the UK auto industry is on its last legs.

  27. bemusedHorseman
    Holmes

    Who could have seen this coming?

    And people thought my family was crazy for refusing to buy cars after a certain model year (whichever year it was that OnStar - or equivalent service - became federally mandated in all new cars, complete with the ability to remotely brick the engine if the car is "reported as stolen", aka "anyone good enough at social engineering to hijack the car while YOU are driving it, or the feds themselves because you voted the wrong way"). We've got an '07 and a 2012 Ford Focus, the 2012 does have basic infotainment but we never use it other than the old-fashioned radio, and the '07 doesn't even have an aux jack let alone bluetooth (I have no problem with putting my phone on full speaker to listen to music). Can't slurp data if there's no hardware in the car to do so...

    "Big Brother isn't planning to brick your car in the middle of the highway because you hit decline on a premium subscription, Freeman. You're just being paranoid!"

  28. Big_Boomer

    What is the purpose of the car?

    If you have a car for transport, then a wired/subscription/self-driving car is ideal. You pay monthly, the car drives you wherever you want to go, and never gets nicked for speeding because it's not allowed to speed. It drops you off outside your destination, and then parks itself and recharges whilst parked. When you want it, you summon it and it comes to get you. Chauffeur service for all.

    However, if you have a car because you enjoy driving, then all of that just gets in the way. Yes, all the amazing tech means that you can drive faster and safer, corner faster and brake better, but it is computers doing all of that, not you. The joys of driving cars like the earlier Mazda MX-5/Miata are 100% BECAUSE there are no nanny-devices so it's just you, and that makes it fun. Personally I ride motorcycles for fun, but it's the same there. Modern motorcycles have ride-by-wire throttles with "cornering traction control", computer controlled braking and several other systems that make them safer and capable of easily being ridden ridiculously fast, but they are uninvolving and less fun than a foul handling 1970s bike that required skill and even some luck to ride fast. Honda even built a prototype motorcycle that self-balances and can ride itself. WTF is the point of that except for maybe replacing Deliveroo riders?

  29. s. pam
    Megaphone

    This is why I drive a 1973 car

    I drive a TR 6 and don't have electronics, bluetooth, etc.., and couldn't be hapier! I have a choke, real accelerator, clutch, removable hood plus heat!

    I also don't pay any road tax or ULEZ :):):)

  30. Patrician

    What about buying a cheap Android phone and using it just for connecting to the car? You'd need a new Google account but there would be no data to be harvested except travelling data.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like