Kia crashes CES with modular electric vehicle concept

Korean automaker Kia has returned to CES after a five-year absence to unveil an eagerly anticipated electric vehicle concept: Modular vehicles that can be kitted out to fit various purposes. Called the Platform Behind Vehicle (PBV), Kia introduced the new strategy alongside five sample vehicles including the large PV7, tiny …

[StrangerHereMyself]

Standardized

What will revolutionize EV's is the standardization of the components, like electric motors, motor controllers, charger electronics and battery packs.

If someone would come up with an open-source standard for electric bikes and scooters, for example, that alone would make a HUGE difference and could lead to unheard of economies of scale, improved quality and dirt-cheap transportation costs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Standardized

Never going to happen, not while cars remain an aspirational purchase. How would a brand differentiate itself?

[StrangerHereMyself]

Quality, price and styling come to mind.

It may not be what manufacturers want but it's certainly something consumers crave.

[Trigonoceps occipitalis]

"Quality, price and styling"

You got that in the wrong order - price, styling and quality.

[Michael Wojcik]

As the relative success of the new Ford Maverick truck shows, configurability is itself a selling point for a significant chunk of the market.

Even I might someday consider an EV (though there'd have to be much better charging options on the routes I most often drive) if I could get it with adequate cargo capacity, a wagon-style body, and good-quality seats — because after ten or twelve hours that does start to matter — and without idiotic "tech" features like a touchscreen, smartphone integration, etc. And there's no reason why a standardized platform, or even a proprietary but customizable one like what Kia are pitching, couldn't offer that.

[The Velveteen Hangnail]

Re: Standardized

There will always be ways to differentiate. Compare against the PC market. Components can vary drastically, but everything is fine as long as they support the corresponding connector. Power, PCI-E, etc.

[Andy 73]

Re: Standardized

Within manufacturers, this already happens. They're already pretty good at economies of scale. Remember they have been doing this for a hundred years now.

However, people like difference, they like stuff that is specific to their circumstances, budget, environment and needs. If we can't come up with an open source standard for a phone or computer, why would you think we can create an open source standard for a car?

Add in a constantly evolving legislative environment, changing demographics, new technologies and styling trends and.. nope - it's an illusion the we could magically create one standard "people's vehicle", or even components,

[StrangerHereMyself]

Re: Standardized

There can still be differentiation. And people like cheap stuff and eternal availability of spare parts more than differentiation. It would also allow people to mix and match themselves and tinker with their cars.

Before the EU mandated USB chargers for smartphones every manufacturer had their own wall wart and plug. After standardization we're seeing a myriad of USB chargers in all price and quality ranges. From simple, dangerous ones without galvanic isolation to high-end ones with built-in microcontrollers which talk to the smartphone to negotiate charging speeds.

Today we see all sorts of battery packs, motor controllers and electric motors in EV's. All these are mostly arbitrary and could easily be standardized. Start standardizing components for electric bikes and scooters and move to EV's later on.

[John Robson]

Re: Standardized

"If someone would come up with an open-source standard"

Then we'd have three more standards than we already do...

https://m.xkcd.com/927/

[cyberdemon]

Re: Standardized

Mandatory USB-C charging? I await the 250kW PD standard.

(Actually, 48V USB-C would be a good idea for bike, skateboard batteries etc)

[Piro]

Re: Standardized

Those things are already prone to setting on fire, without the threat of thin and cheap USB cables charging them.

Sometimes you just need to accept you're dealing with a segment that can't be trusted, and ensure the cables are beefy and not interchangeable for the sake of it, without any fun protocols causing issues.

We have connectors that are designed to take such loads, like the XT- connectors commonly used in battery charging for RC cars and drones and whatever.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Standardized

Well, when they do set on fire, often the "charger" is blamed. This is because many of them are SO cheap and nasty that they simply connect a constant-voltage (current-limited if you're lucky) external charger directly to the cell string. This is BAD, because if you change the charger, then you may be using the wrong voltage or current. And even if you stick with the original (naff) charger, there is no electronics inside the battery to monitor individual cell voltages, temperature etc.

Some brands (Bosch, etc) DO have proper electronics inside the battery and are much less prone to exploding. But because nothing is standardised, there is no way of knowing except for "brand reputation".

So, in forcing USB-C, what you are actually doing is forcing manufacturers to put some electronics inside the battery, where they can put proper CC/CV charging and proper cell monitoring on a nice cheap PCB with a USB-C socket, and you are no longer dependent on a special external charger, because that part has been properly standardised.

(other power-delivery standards may be available, if the 100-240W from the latest USB-C is not good enough for your ebike, but I don't know of them. Perhaps the USB-IF needs to define a high-current connector up to 48V specifically with ebikes and power tools in mind)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Standardized

"Those things are already prone to setting on fire, without the threat of thin and cheap USB cables charging them. Sometimes you just need to accept you're dealing with a segment that can't be trusted, and ensure the cables are beefy and not interchangeable for the sake of it, without any fun protocols causing issues."

Most of the fires from scooters and bikes are either home built kit conversions, people using the wrong charger, or retrofitting poor quality batteries. With many different voltages and only so many standard connectors using the wrong charger is unfortunately quite easy. It's very difficult to stop many of these actions, because you can have a battery that's safe when properly charged and managed, a charger that's safe when used with the right battery, and control electrics that work perfectly well when installed as the maker intended. Do a bit of mix and match and suddenly there's a bomb in the living room. You can buy kits that are reputable and competent, and ones that aren't - and you can buy a safe conversion design, and assemble it in a way that makes it dangerous. A big chunk of the blame lies with Amazon, Ebay, Alibaba, Wish and the rest, because they insist they are not liable for ensuring products are safe as they're merely "a marketplace", and so they don't have the same responsibilities that UK retailers do. The online marketplaces are of course happy to profit from selling unsafe goods. Online marketplaces should have the same legal responsibilities as retailers, and if they won't agree to that then they should be banned from conducting business in the UK. That should have been done years ago, but given the string of dismal governments we've had for decades now it hasn't been, and with an election coming up we can expect paralysis of government for the next eighteen months.

E-bikes that are made by reputable makers and bought through a UK retail channel are (by comparison) pretty safe, but anybody looking for quick and simple solutions short of an outright ban will be disappointed. Even outright bans are not 100% effective, as online marketplaces still allow banned products to be shipped into the UK. We've had incidents involving multiple deaths, and to be honest the lack of (pretty draconian) action means we're perhaps waiting on a much more serious fire in an apartment building before government will get a grip.

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/sgyikuwb/esf_batterybreakdown_report_2023_v7_-final.pdf

[jmch]

Re: Standardized

If you mean standardised across the whole industry, that doesn't make much sense to me, it's like saying that ICE vehicles would have had a big boost if everyone standardised on the same engine and gearbox. ICE engines were highly proprietary, and the bragging rights involved in having the most powerful (and later, most economical) engine drove development forward. What was standardised on (or at least settled on a 3-5 possible standard options) was all the gubbins around it - pipework, electrics, wheels and brakes etc.

With EVs there is clearly value for a manufacturer to have their own internal standards, or shared across partners (Hence VW-group electric cars sharing platforms, same with Kia-Hyundai partnership etc). But this has also been standard industry practice for ICE vehicles as well for a couple of decades (VW group again, and Renault-Nissan come to mind). But when it comes to battery packs, charging, and motors, these are the technology 'crown jewels' of a car company, they might be shared across group partners at most but are otherwise closely guarded.

[fromxyzzy]

Re: Standardized

You're not wrong about the past with ICE, but in the present none of these car companies are making their own batteries. The batteries come from a few companies in Asia, and while the car companies have some flexibility in how they design the packaging, they're generally using cells from the same group of makers.

They can differentiate on the electric motors, the energy handling software controls and the car design, but we're already at a point where they're sharing the equivalent of the cylinders/pistons/fuel injection part of an ICE car and tweaking the equivalent of the gearbox and ECU. They're stuck in the position of trying to differentiate their product around the edges.

It's one of the biggest reasons the larger car makers have been apprehensive about getting in to the electric market - they know it's a huge step towards commodification of their product along the lines of washing machines or microwaves, where most people not only won't care about the difference between one brand and another but won't even know that there might be a difference.

[John Robson]

Re: Standardized

"It's one of the biggest reasons the larger car makers have been apprehensive about getting in to the electric market - they know it's a huge step towards commodification of their product along the lines of washing machines or microwaves, where most people not only won't care about the difference between one brand and another but won't even know that there might be a difference."

I'd argue that the number of people who buy a car based on the engine is pretty small.

The cabin is far more of an important differentiator than the engine for most customers, with the assistance technologies being another useful value add.

What standardisation of voltages and connectors (which has already happened) does is allow for charging infrastructure to be (approximately) universal...

You could try to standardise a "user replaceable" battery component, but charging speeds are already sufficient that it's not all that interesting for the vast majority of use cases any more - some of the micro EVs on the continent are using this kind of "wheel half your battery into your flat in the form of a wheeled suitcase" charging mechanism, and to be honest that looks great, but until it's more common the concept of standardising is somewhat further in the future than now.

This is the concept of havig a "skateboard" with a cab, and a replaceable "back half"... like vans do now, only with the ability to switch them out during the lifetime of the vehicle.

Which is fine, need a pickup this week - go and hire one from your dealer, they can store your default shell whilst you haul stuff to the tip. Need something else next week, get that...

[StrangerHereMyself]

Re: Standardized

These open standards wouldn't be defined by the car manufacturers themselves. Some engineers could put up a document with standardized battery pack sizes and interface plugs, for example. For an electric motor you could define the size, connectors and shaft size.

Electric bikes and scooters are low-hanging fruit in this regard. There are dozens of incompatible battery packs, motor controllers and motors on the market today. And just like with smartphone chargers they're incompatible for no good reason.

[abend0c4]

Modular vehicles that can be kitted out to fit various purposes

If you can blow the bloody doors off, perhaps they might even be able to enter the aviation market.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a winner

They didn't use the word 'leverage' once, either properly as a noun or buzzwordy as a verb. Well done Kia.

[David 132]

They look stylish...

...as is de rigeur for concept vehicles. I'm sure the production models, if they ever appear, will look just as sleek and futuristic and clean, right?

(And for those who think I'm being needlessly cynical, I present Exhibit A: Harris Mann's original design sketch for the Austin Allegro.)

[fromxyzzy]

Re: They look stylish...

Same conglomerate just launched this: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46167503/hyundai-n-vision-74-production-volume-report/

And have you seen their Ioniq series lately? They haven't been shy about pushing concepts into production with their current electric lineup.

[Lurko]

Re: They look stylish...

Stylish in a "sleek bread van" sort of way.

[Michael Wojcik]

Re: They look stylish...

What, a compromise between reduced drag and practical cargo capacity? Those bastards!

[Fruit and Nutcase]

"unified user experience"

Looks like the "UX" crowd are expanding their horizons - run for the hills

[IGotOut]

What goes around come around.

So we're are almost back to the days of coach builders.

A company would make the base and then other companies would stick the body and interior fit out to the specs they want

BTW, modern shared platforms have been around for quite sometime now, many cars / vans have the same major base, and just stick their body on top (bit like coach builders as mentioned above, just less bespoke).

This just makes it a lot less fiddly and is mainly interal

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: What goes around come around.

The one thing that seemed to be missing from the blurb is battery packs and range extensions. I'd expect, a "modular vehicle" to have options for larger or addition battery packs which are easily replaceable. I've seen a video of a drive-in battery replacement station, I could see a use for something similar in a modular vehicle. Small and light for city driving, but add in an extra battery pack for those longer journeys, especially in the US market. No need to carry 400 mile range weight of batteries for the daily commute when half or a quarter of that mass/energy is all you need most of the time.

[Lurko]

Re: What goes around come around.

The answer to slow charging is fast charging, not swappable batteries, and the answer to heavy batteries is lighter batteries. Lithium sulfur is a possible candidate that might tick both boxes, but there's several others. The current battery technology in EVs is very poor, and in a decade or so we'll look back and laugh at it.

[jmch]

Re: What goes around come around.

"The current battery technology in EVs is very poor, and in a decade or so we'll look back and laugh at it."

Well, yes, but also no.

If you look at the old NiCd dumbphone batteries , or the Li-ion batteries from the first smartphones and electric cars, the current generation of Lithium batteries are very advanced indeed. Lithium battery fires used to be a much higher risk than now (cough, Samsung, cough), and it's possible to alter the chemistry to have a safer (albeit less performant) Li battery. Energy densities in the mainstream top-end eg Tesla are past 250Wh/kg. So I wouldn't really say current battery technology is "very poor".

Equally, though, there is quite significant room for improvement, with theoretically proposed battery chemistries delivering up to 1.5kWh/kg and many engineers confident that we can eventually crack 1kWh/kg in practice. And new technologies (Lithium Sulphur and Aluminium-anode based among others ) promise higher energy densities, faster charging, longer life (charge-discharge cycles) and better safety.

Honestly I think a decade on is still too close for a major breakthrough on all fronts, but equally honestly, I don't think we need a major breakthrough. If in the next 10 years we make the same steady progress as the last 10 (7% year-on-year increase is a doubling in 10 years).

- Doubling best energy density to 500Wh/kg means a 100kWh battery that weighs 1/2 tonne (light enough to bring electric cars in the same weight range as ICE)

- Doubling best charging rates to 350kW + means a 10-80% charge on such battery in 12 min (which would give 350+ km real-world range)

- Doubling charge-discharge cycles to 2000 (even assuming just 10-80% every time) means the battery will still work pretty well after 700,000 km. In real life it probably means you keep close to 100% capacity for at least the first 200,000 km

So, yeah, looking forward to those amazing batteries we might have in 10 years (if we manage) but the ones we have now are certainly no laughing stocks!!

[Androgynous Cupboard]

Re: What goes around come around.

> The answer to slow charging is fast charging

Amen. If it were me I would put a ban on 400V cars, or "charger blockers" as I now think of them. The ones who plug into a busy charging station, connect then head off for a leisurely lunch, drawing 50kW for an hour. Despite them being yesterdays technology, new cars are still coming onto the market with severely limited charging (eg https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1943/Lexus-UX-300e - a brand new Lexus model, but supplied with a CHADEMO charger that maxes out at 50kW!)

[jmch]

Re: What goes around come around.

"The answer to slow charging is fast charging"

Absolutely this. To be honest most other current battery specs (energy density, range, charge/discharge cycles), while improvable, are already good enough or more than good enough. Being able to charge at 200kW (which is around the current record for consistent, rather than peak, charging rate) gives, for most electric cars, an extra 100km range per 5 minutes charge*. If you could manage to double that in the typical (rather than record-holding) electric car, adding 400km range in 10 minutes and you're instantly almost-on-par with ICEs even for those exceptional cases where you're travelling more than the car's full range in a day.

*if their efficiency is 167 Wh/km, which is current real-life efficiency of a mid-sized electric saloon

[Michael Wojcik]

Re: What goes around come around.

those exceptional cases where you're travelling more than the car's full range in a day

For some of us those "exceptional cases" are the norm. If I'm driving at all, there's a good chance I'll be exceeding the car's range. (And since I can get about 700km on 5 minutes' refueling, no, 400km in 10 minutes is not "on par". It might be good enough. Maybe.)

Personally, I'd much rather have fewer batteries and an on-board ICE generator to charge them. The combustion engine could keep running at peak efficiency, there'd be no heavy transmission (and that engine would likely be air-cooled, so no fluid cooling system either), range would be better, and refueling would be quick. You want to get rid of petrol? Fine, run it on propane; we have a mature propane infrastructure already.

[vtcodger]

Re: What goes around come around.

"Personally, I'd much rather have fewer batteries and an on-board ICE generator to charge them. The combustion engine could keep running at peak efficiency, there'd be no heavy transmission (and that engine would likely be air-cooled, so no fluid cooling system either)"

That's called a hybrid and they are available today from most major manufacturers. Often at reasonable prices because their (expensive) drive batteries are generally not all that large. I think that most hybrids have transmissions. I'll leave it to you to suss out why because I don't know and don't much care. And yes, they get excellent range,

[jmch]

Re: What goes around come around.

"For some of us those "exceptional cases" are the norm. "

Yes, but also, very few people have such driving patterns, so it is an exceptional case. In your case and that of those with similair driving needs, a hybrid would indeed be the way to go.

(And, as an aside, while a modern diesel or eventual hybrid could get 700km off a 5 min refuel, the human driving it will certainly need more than 5 minutes rest every 700km!! )

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: What goes around come around.

"The answer to slow charging is fast charging, not swappable batteries, and the answer to heavy batteries is lighter batteries."

While I agree with your points, I wasn't making a point about charge rates. I was making a point about the weight of the battery pack and why many people would not need to be dragging around a 400+ mile battery back when the vast majority of their use is within their home town or city, but may sometimes need to pop in to the local depot and have a modular "range extender" battery added, which seemed to me like a missed opportunity for manufacturer pushing a "modular" vehicle.

Even if batteries do get lighter, there's going to be limits on how much lighter both in the tech used to make them and the safety requirements built around them. Batteries don't get lighter as you drain them. Most "town drivers" I know who are conscious of fuel usages and maybe some attempts to be "green" rarely fill the tank because there's no point in carrying the excess weight. I'm at the other end of the scale anyway and might go through anything from 1 to 3 or more full tanks of petrol in a week so tend to fill it up the brim every time. The same could apply to EV drivers. If you never drive more than 30 miles per day, why carry half a ton of batteries when a couple 100Kg will do, increasing the range by cutting the excess weight.

[vtcodger]

Re: What goes around come around.

Battery swapping is perfectly feasible. IIRC Elon the cagefighter once demonstrated it in order to capture a California EV subsidy. The problem with battery swapping is economic, not technical. EV batteries are outlandishly expensive. How many owners of a new EV are going to be anxious to swap their almost brand new (but charge depleted) battery module for whatever battery pack of unknown provenance the "charging station" happens to have around and charged?

Also current EV batteries are heavy. The internet tells me that a 6 to 12 kwh battery (maybe 18 to 40 miles of juice depending on capacity and the vehicle) will weigh 100-150kg (220-330lb). Very few folks are capable of moving that sort of mass around. Unless you want to deal with dozens of battery packs at every refueling, battery swapping will require machinery and standardized fittings.

Probably things will change in the future. But not quickly I think.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bolt on and off leccy cars!

What could possibly go wrong?

[Michael Wojcik]

Re: Bolt on and off leccy cars!

Yes, there have never before been vehicles with bodies bolted to the frame, or ones carrying a lot of high-energy-density material. Brave new world &c.

[User McUser]

I just wanted to say...

The new Kia logo looks more like KИ than KIA.

[vtcodger]

Re: I just wanted to say...

"The new Kia logo looks more like KИ than KIA."

That's OK. It's an incremental step toward X. Next they remove the K. Then the I. Then they slope that vertical line. Eventually everything future oriented will be X. X uber alles</sarcasm>

[Anonymous Coward]

The Howay Song factory ...

Does Nissan Sunderland know about this ??

[award]

Robotaxi?

"Kia eventually plans to introduce a robotaxi model of the PV5 as well."

Does that mean I'll soon be able to hail a Johnny Cab?