ESA's Mars Express continues to avoid retirement home

The Mars Express recorded the highest clouds ever seen above the surface of a planet, as well as water ice on Mars' polar caps. And although the veteran spacecraft is now seemingly entering the final phase of its journey, this good thing isn't coming to an end just yet. By rights, the European Space Agency's Mars Express (MEX …

[heyrick]

No Martian would dare invade earth

One look at our spacecraft and they'd believe us to engineer to excessive, nay improbable, extremes.

Heh, if only they knew what it was like down here, where getting three years out of a modern washing machine is difficult.

Here's to everybody that has sent stuff to Mars to just do a little bit of science, that has ended up sciencing the shit out of it, for years longer than originally planned.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: No Martian would dare invade earth

"sciencing the shit out of it"

I am sure there is a 'word' for this BUT this does sound better out loud!!!

:)

[Tom Paine]

Re: No Martian would dare invade earth

Nof wanting to start a heated debate, or anything, but -- the very short lifetime (compared to the time required for sub-lightspeed interstellar travel) of unmanned spacecraft is, for me, one of the obvious showstoppers for any prospect of human travel beyond the solar system*. Yes, I know the Voyagers are coming up on 50, and Mars Odyssey and various other uncrewed machjneshave kept running longer than expected, but (a) that's without yhe gigantic overhead of providing life support that could be maintained for tens ov thousands of years -- which also implies a population size sufficient to produce replacement engineers able to not just keep things running, but to improvisecsolutions to the inevitable unexpected / major breakdowns that would inevitably occur in time. I seriously doubt we could design build launch and operate a non-trivial unmanned spacecraft designed to survive a century, let alone three orders of magnitude longer timespans.

Anyway, merry Xmas ya filthy animals!

https://youtu.be/BoLloFY_Zik?si=capt-hatstand-and-his-performing-jellyfish

[HuBo]

Re: No Martian would dare invade earth

A right swift swig of uncrewed "machjneshave"-witz is a great way to relieve the paine of eggnog fog in my expreienec ... hic!

[Lars]

Re: No Martian would dare invade earth

@Tom Paine

Yes, and if you think about it, light is rather sleepy too. It take about 2.5 million years to reach us just from our closest galaxy and our precious sunbeams are lingering for about 8 min and 20 sec before hitting our sunny side.

Happy new year.

[jake]

Re: No Martian would dare invade earth

I'm pretty sure it's the cats & sighthounds snoozing in the sunbeams that are sleepy, not the light itself.

And said cats (and sighthounds) donlt care when it left the Sun. It's here now[0], which is all that matters.

_{[0] Not now, to be perfectly honest. It's raining here in Sonoma ... the heat-seeking critters are buried under blankets.}

[jake]

Re: No Martian would dare invade earth

Humans have been talking about and writing about so-called "generation ships" since the early 20th century. A lot of thought has gone into the problem. I rather suspect that we could do such a thing now, with today's technology ... but the overall cost would likely outweigh any perceived benefit, and thus the will to do it is not there.

_{The other problem, of course, is where do you point the silly thing?}

[Grogan]

Re: No Martian would dare invade earth

Our propulsion technology still isn't really capable of that. You've got chemical propellants, or nuclear reactors but in the latter case, you still need a propellant (e.g. water vapour, something to expel at high velocity for thrust). Unless you want to detonate nuclear reactions behind you, with massive shielding. The logistics of that don't seem very practical either.

Nuclear fusion technology is not there yet. (In that case you could probably scoop up some hydrogen in transit to supplement)

Given time, a generational ship could reach a destination but you'd run out of things you can carry. You'd really need a means of propulsion with a higher exhaust velocity to accelerate to practical velocities. Momentum isn't lost much in space, but you're never going to go faster than your means of propulsion.

With our current technology we could manoeuvre in our solar system. Necessity is the mother of invention, we could figure that out right now if there was a good enough reason. Frankly, at this time, there is not. Even valuable metals from asteroid mining wouldn't be worth the cost of bringing back to Earth. So chicken before egg. There's no need to mine metals in the solar system, until there is a human presence, where it's practical to use them.

P.S. It's not only propulsion, but shielding. Physical shielding weakens when exposed to cosmic rays and solar winds and stuff. It becomes almost as dangerous as the particles you are shielding against.

[Spazturtle]

Re: No Martian would dare invade earth

Just wait for a star with a planet in it's habitable zone to past through your solar systems and then hop over, this can be done with existing levels of tech.

A star passes through the Oort cloud on average every 100k years.

If every planet you colonise goes on to do the same whenever habitable planets pass by it would only take a few millions years to colonise the entire galaxy.

[jake]

Re: No Martian would dare invade earth

"where getting three years out of a modern washing machine is difficult."

Two words: Speed Queen.

A few more words: Speed Queen are the folks who make bullet-proof laundromat coin-op equipment ... but they also make home machines, sans the money slot. Hand made in the US, and the price reflects it, but they last forever in a household environment. And no fucking computer to go TITSUP[0] on you after getting blasted by static from the dryer. Most of the TC5/DC5 machines here at the ranch have been abused and battered for well over a decade, with no sign of slowing down. And no fucking lid lock; either. Recommended.

The old Roman phrase caveat emptor has never rung truer than for today's large and small appliances.

[0] Total Inability To Select the Unmentionables Program

[anothercynic]

Re: No Martian would dare invade earth

Funny you should mention Speed Queen...

I have an Indesit washing machine that has just celebrated its 20th anniversary. A washing machine is only as good as you treat it... In those 20 years, the only thing I've had to replace was the broken door handle. Everything else still running as expected. :-)

[Lars]

Re: No Martian would dare invade earth

The thing is that if it's twenty years old it was made twenty years ago and that is the big difference.

And we don't talk about them now.

[Bebu]

"sciencing the shit out of"

Sounds like use of a probing tool like a wrecking bar (jemmy) that should have been applied to the more refractory political leaders during the covid years. Could be profitably applied retrospectively and currently to climate policy recalcitrants who are in many cases the same berks.

[heyrick]

Re: "sciencing the shit out of"

I don't think you need a tool to extract the excrement, it'll pour out by itself every time their mouths open.

[Pascal Monett]

NASA, again, proves its worth

I'm going to say it : there isn't a single successful NASA project that hasn't outlived it's projected mission time by a factor of at least two.

Sure, when probes crash land instead of touching down, it's curtains for the mission. NASA has had its share, and other agencies have also learned the hard way. Because space is hard.

But if that bird gets to its planned orbit, or touches down intact, then you can bet your entire fortune that the mission will outlive its initial parameters by a large margin, one that would have the golden boys on Wall Street salivating.

Of course, such a level of engineering in our everyday objects is unthinkable. Who would want a toaster that could last a hundred years ? Who would pay the price for such a thing ?

Hey wait, I would.

Go Science ! Go NASA ! Merry XMas and a very Happy New year to all ! (we need a Santa icon)

[lglethal]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

Not to disagree with what you wrote. But Mars Express is an ESA Spacecraft.

So it's not just NASA that can achieve awesome space results.

When you get people who are passionate about their work, and are given enough leeway to actually make it work, and have management who realise what is actually needed for success, you can achieve amazing things...

[Philo T Farnsworth]

NASA or ESA. . .

Welcome to the Underpromise and Overdeliver Club.

Thanks, ESA, for making this nerd's day.

[elsergiovolador]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

Of course, such a level of engineering in our everyday objects is unthinkable. Who would want a toaster that could last a hundred years ? Who would pay the price for such a thing ?

Given that in this scenario you can only sell product once and there is somewhat finite number of potential customers (toasters will be inherited or resold on a second hand market), you would have to factor that in the pricing.

This means more likely such toaster would have to be sold on a subscription basis, to provide steady recurring revenue or it would have to be magnitude more expensive to cover for lack of planned obsolescence.

Hey wait, I would.

It would become so expensive, you probably wouldn't.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

"you would have to factor that in the pricing."

Why? That's only really a concern if your entire business model is making and selling toasters. A good engineering company with good business acumen would be watching the market and looking at the next product, probably having multiple products with overlapping product runs. The problem is marketing it in a way so as to attract a big enough customer base and educating customers that one expensive item that lasts 20, 30, 40 years is cheaper than a new one priced at £10 every year or two. but that also means overcoming the the fashion fad where people want the latest "in" colour or design every year or two. With the current fad for renting everything and owning nothing, I suspect "cheap and cheerful" is going to be here for a long while yet.

[HuBo]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

Same goes for food IMHO. Better to eat higher quality food (possibly pricier, hopefully more local) in "smaller" amounts, than to glutton oneself on oversized megaportions of nominally inexpensive "edibles" with low to junky quality. The price difference being likely paid for later in chronic pain meds and Doctor visits. The rule doesn't apply during holiday celebrations of course (as Emma Goldman said, "If I can't dance " ...)!

[elsergiovolador]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

The rule doesn't apply during holiday celebrations of course

Don't know, that might be an excuse to buy even more quality and extravagant food. Like you buy a Turkey that has a name, set of photos how it was growing up, what it has been up to. What was its last day, the name of the butcher, the experience they have, whether Turkey suffered, its family has been taken care of etc.

Then you can rent a chef to come to your home and prepare it properly, while buying all organic ingredients on the way to your place so everything is fresh.

[jake]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

Who buys turkeys? They are all over the place at this time of year ...

As for hiring a chef, instead learn to cook for yourself. It's hardly rocket science ... learning to hack food was one of the first skills Homo Sap learned to do.

[jake]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

My food is much higher quality than the grocery store, far tastier, and a hell of a lot cheaper.

With a few exceptions (mostly dry goods), I grow my own.

I grow the parts and assemble my own beer & wine, too. It's hardly rocket surgery.

[elsergiovolador]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

It's not how it works today. Most people are used to cheap Chinese tat that will break after few months and they will not buy a good toaster that will last a decade or more.

That's one thing - which incredibly shrinks the possible market share. This means company has to put prices up just to keep lights up. Don't forget that commercial property, business rates and other taxes including those on labour are very high, so business like this would be burning a lot of cash.

Then you have to make these toasters at a volume that will pay the bills, wages and bring enough profit so that you can not only reinvest but also pay shareholders for their investment.

Also as you noticed - people don't want to use the same thing for the rest of their lives. For many this prospect is actually scary.

The planned obsolescence solves that in a way - as something you buy will inevitably break after one or two years and will give you that excitement of buying something new again.

[jake]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

In some ways, I think that the modern Consumer is part of the proof that Humans have stopped evolving.

[jake]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

"or it would have to be magnitude more expensive"

In the RealWorld, the "lasts the lifetime of the user" toaster is only about twice the price of a "throw away in a couple years" model. Or you can buy one that's cute, in the cool crayon colo(u)r of today's marketing geniuses, for about four or five times the price of the cheap one, secure in the knowledge that it'll die before you get tired of the look of it.

_{One wonders what Japan does with all the dead Hello Kitty toasters ...}

[Bill Gray]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

Who would want a toaster that could last a hundred years ? Who would pay the price for such a thing ?

An interesting analysis of why modern toasters don't last as long as "old fashioned" ones did :

https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/your-toaster-will-eventually-fail/

From that article : "...It seems that modern toasters are the kitchen equivalent of printers—everything in the category is pretty crappy."

[Tom Paine]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

Ah, so you're a waffle man!

[Bill Gray]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

Well, I go back and forth on that.

(Which reminds me of the 1980s headline BRITISH LEFT WAFFLES ON FALKLANDS...)

[Tom Paine]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

Also important to dudtinguish minimum mission success criteria from what the team think would be realistic, assuming a successful EDL. Eg for the MERs, the criteria was (among various other things) 90 sols of operation, but they'd have been hugely disappointed if they'd died after, say, 120 sols.

[jake]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

"Who would want a toaster that could last a hundred years ?"

Me. Thus I purchase my small home appliances at restaurant supply stores, not a main-street department store.

My Waring 4-slot "bagel" toaster is nearly 50 years old and still works like new. I just checked, and all parts are still available (including a kit to rebuild the heating elements), should I need to fix it.

[anothercynic]

Re: NASA, again, proves its worth

MEX is an ESA project, as the article points out. However, your point stands as far as the engineering and science aimed at space is concerned.

[elsergiovolador]

Climate change

It means that humans should put more effort on taxing whatever activity there is going on Mars to extinction.

We should also start building cycle lanes and introduce electric cars before it is too late and set carbon quotas!

[Tom Paine]

MarsCAM

The "Marscam" (VMC), which IIRC was tacked on as a last minute (light) payload purely to monitor Beagle's deployment, was an early win for the citizen space-science community. ESA accepted spacenerd demands to leave it running restart it after 3 years' dormancy, and although its not a science instrument, I'm sure I remember science results came from it at some point.

https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Operations/About_the_Visual_Monitoring_Camera_VMC